10/10/2016 Newsnight


10/10/2016

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis. With an exclusive RBS investigation and reaction to the US presidential debate.


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Or a Rotten Bank for Small businesses?

:00:00.:00:10.

Damning new evidence that RBS penalised distressed firms

:00:11.:00:14.

to make money for itself, ignored warnings of potential

:00:15.:00:16.

conflicts of interest, and mistreated healthy businesses.

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But there's nothing worse when you know that you're - it sounds really

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arrogant - you know you're good at what you do. This was, this was 35

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years of my life and I knew I'd got it right.

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We'll hear what the bank did, and what we should do in return.

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Also tonight, we are leaving the EU partly to restore power

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So should our Parliament not be allowed some say

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It's a new a battle in the Brexit war.

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It's not been a good week for clowns.

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Donald Trump has had his troubles too - but did the debate

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If I win, I am going to instruct my Attorney-General to get a special

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prosecutor to look into your situation, because there has never

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been so many lies, so much deception. There has never been

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anything like it. To my mind, she's wrong about

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everything, but she's wrong within the normal parameters of wrong. It's

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the kind of wrong we've had before. It's a wrong we can endure. With

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him, who knows. You don't need to get bogged down

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in the details of the RBS story. RBS lent money to

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lots of businesses. Some of them had problems -

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maybe minor, maybe But then a cash-strapped RBS decided

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to use business distress It would pretend it was there

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to help the firms, put them into special measures

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in its supportive turnaround And then, in some cases,

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it fleeced them, tipping RBS even appeared willing to force

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perfectly sound companies Now these allegations are not new,

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but Newsnight and Buzzfeed have obtained a cache of interesting

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documents the bank did not want Andrew Verity has

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been through them. It has been another extraordinary

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day of fast moving developments for Britain's financial world, so with

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an economy eatering on the edge of recession and a squeeze on other

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Government spending, where is all the money coming from?

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2008, overborrowed, overlent and bailed out, RBS was under pressure

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from its shock new owner, the Government, to get bad debts off the

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books and boost its depleted cash. A fair goal, perhaps, but it was

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accused of using foul means to achieve it, looking for ways to trip

:03:13.:03:17.

up business customers so it could drain them of cash and get their

:03:18.:03:21.

assets on the cheap, for a disregard for the owners who created them. RBS

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furiously denied it. Now there's evidence these highly sensitive RBS

:03:29.:03:34.

documents were leaked by a whistle-blower prompting an

:03:35.:03:37.

investigation by Buzzfeed news and BBC Newsnight. They contain secret

:03:38.:03:43.

information and internal e Mails, showing that while one part of the

:03:44.:03:47.

bank was claiming to help business customers, another part of the bank

:03:48.:03:51.

was collaborating with it, looking to buy up customers' property when

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they got in trouble and extract maximum economic value. I'm sorry.

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What I've always held onto is that I - I know what I'm doing. In what one

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e-mail described as a dash for cash, RBS commercial bank staff could

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boost their bonuses by scouring their loan books for defaulting

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customers. Even if they'd never missed a payment, the bank had ways

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of finding them in default. Imagine your mortgage lender telling you

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it's revalued your property, the price has dropped and it's now worth

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too little compared to your loan. Even though you may never have

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missed a payment, it wants its mortgage money back. Then later you

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find out that all along it had a property division that wanted to buy

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your property for a gain. That wouldn't happen with residential

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mortgages, they're regulated. But it's very much like what happened to

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many business customers. This was the old back of the shop... Andy

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Gibbs aan entrepreneur and architect. He made his dream real,

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designing and building a thriving hub for creative companies. A lot of

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my work is giving a hand rail to the past... In May 2008 RBS mis-sold him

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a financial product, supposed to protect against rising interest

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rates. When rates fell, it started draining cash from the business. The

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bank's response to his business trouble was to put it in what it

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says ways turn around division, the global restructuring group, GRG.

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Then he was told the property had been revalued. It was now worth too

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little compared to the loan. Tell us about the fees and interest rates.

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At one stage, I found out that they'd cancelled my professional

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indemnity insurance premium, which I have to have and could have damaged

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me professionally. Foreignly I manage -- fortunately, I imagined to

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sort that without a gap of time. They cancelled small Energy Bills,

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the smallest one something like 6. ?6.53. It was all the time taking

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away, taking away the control of what I had which was a beautiful and

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energetic business really. Andy was warned he may have to sell assets or

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go into insolvency. He raised more than ?500,000 selling the family

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homement That money was swallowed up by GRG and it didn't change any

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course of action whatsoever for a ten month period. So ?500,000 was

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wasted? ?537,000 completely wasted and the family home gone. GRG wrote

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demanding repayment of its loan. They continued to support his

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business if they sold a stake in the business to West Register, the

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bank's property company. He decloind and within days the bank called in

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the receivers. He and his staff were thrown out. Andy lost his business,

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then his health and then his marriage. I'd had a breakdown. At

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one point, I'd lost four-and-a-half stone in hospital. I didn't actually

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know when I was going to get out of hospital. What, for you, was the GRG

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treatment? Sorry... Oh, God. Sorry. What I've always held onto is that I

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erm...... I'm a good... I know what I'm doing. RBS says it's winding

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down GRG but agreed business customers are now clubbing together

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to try and sue the bank. I've spoken to a lot of people and I've heard a

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lot of stories and I can hear within them a great repetition of the same

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kinds of activities and actions. These are very unsavoury. These are

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not the behaviour of a normal banking process to deal with

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customers in stress. These appear to be the activities of an organisation

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trying to acquire the assets of people who otherwise seem to have a

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perfectly solid business. The bank's claimed for years GRG was an

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intensive care unit to help stricken businesses recover. The documents

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show that you didn't even have to be distressed. Falling out with the

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bank or just wanting to leave and bank elsewhere, could mean a

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referral to GRG. I've not seen one case where the evidence points to

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the fact that they were artificially distressed to transfer to GRG. It

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wasn't true. Just because of a break down in relationship with the bank.

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No, there are a range of factors that point to financial distress. In

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one e-mail they discuss provoking a default event for a customer. All

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businesses that were transferred to GRG were in financial difficulty.

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That's contradicted by an e-mail I have here. Would you look at it? It

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might enlighten you to your bank's practises. It says they could

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provoke a default event. This is in relation to GRG customer, provoke a

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default event. Doesn't that suggest that GRG was engineering defaults?

:09:21.:09:25.

No, look, I've spent two-and-a-half years looking at all the cases in

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terms of GRG - You don't seem to want to look at this. I know what

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your document says. You've seen the e-mail? I'm clear - Doesn't that

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bother you. If you let me finish my answer, I'm really clear in all the

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evidence I've seen over two-and-a-half years, looking at

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millions of documents, there was no artificial distressing of businesses

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to put them to GRG. Alison Loveday a litigation lawyer says RBS goes to

:09:55.:09:59.

great lengths to stifle customers claims of wrongdoing. They were a

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necessary evil, that's how the bank saw it. They knew most business

:10:03.:10:07.

owners wouldn't have the mental resilience or the finance to be able

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to challenge them and they were typically acting aloan, so it took a

:10:12.:10:16.

long time for people to realise they weren't the only ones treated like

:10:17.:10:19.

that. Why would the bank behave this way? Well, it could charge customers

:10:20.:10:24.

in its turn around division much higher interest and fees, much of

:10:25.:10:28.

the debt could be written off with a taxpayer supported the bank.

:10:29.:10:32.

Crucially, capital, held against the risk that the loan went bad, could

:10:33.:10:36.

be released, because it already had gone bad. Then there was what the

:10:37.:10:41.

bank called its upside. If it could take a stake in the business or some

:10:42.:10:45.

of its property, when the market bounced back, there should be big

:10:46.:10:50.

gains. The Financial Conduct Authority ordered a report by two

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firms of consultants checking out the allegations of mistreatment.

:10:56.:10:58.

Nearly three years later, it's completed and with the FCA. The

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regulator won't say when it will be published.

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With me now is Andy Keats, a former RBS customer, who,

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like Andi in the film, has had problems with the bank.

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Also here is Sir Vince Cable, former Business Secretary,

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with responsibility for overseeing the regulation of

:11:14.:11:16.

Can I start with you, you represent many of the victims of what we've

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seen described there, the SME alliances, you're involved with

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that. How many of the businesses that were dragged into this GRG

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group, how many were fundamentally bad businesses, had got into trouble

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or needed help? As you say, I deal with hundreds, we support and

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investigate hundreds of businesses and I'm one of those businesses

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myself. It really annoys me actually to hear RBS saying what they've just

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said that - They say no-one was made a distressed business that wasn't a

:11:59.:12:03.

distressed business. I can tell you categorically that I've dealt with

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literally tens of businesses myself, investigated them and found that

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they were honest, proper businesses, properly run, with no defaults, no

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distress and they were put into GRG just like me. Your case is an

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interesting one. You weren't put into GRG... I was put into the

:12:25.:12:30.

intensive care exposure committee and I didn't even realise for five

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years that I was in it. You say that's because you were selling your

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business and it was going to move the account to Barclays. Then they

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started cutting up rough basically. We told them we were moving to

:12:44.:12:49.

Barclays and four weeks later we had our merchant account terminated with

:12:50.:12:56.

30 days' notice. They said that we were financially distressed. We were

:12:57.:12:59.

moving to Barclays. Why would they say that? 14 days before that, we'd

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had an offer for the purchase of the business, after four months of due

:13:09.:13:11.

diligence. What was going on? You lost that offer and you lost the

:13:12.:13:16.

move to Barclays because Barclays said, hang on, RBS has found

:13:17.:13:22.

something dodgy here. Exactly. Then this has got caught up into your

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personal life as opposed to your business life because now, they're

:13:28.:13:29.

trying to repossess your house. What they did in the business, they then

:13:30.:13:36.

took all my money. So they retained all of my business money until we

:13:37.:13:42.

went bust. After we went bust, I unfortunately had a mortgage with

:13:43.:13:46.

RBS and said to them, what do you want me to do, do you want me to

:13:47.:13:50.

sell. They said no, they didn't want that. Wait until later

:13:51.:13:58.

down-the-line. We entered into more borrowing facilities on the basis

:13:59.:14:03.

that I was a good customer. We have so little time. Basically it ended

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up with them saying, we're claiming money back from you and we need to

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repossess the house. They said I was in arrears of ?50,000 when I was in

:14:15.:14:19.

borrowing facilities. They've obviously been playing quite a rough

:14:20.:14:24.

game with a lot of small businesses. What do you see today that you

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didn't know when you were Business Secretary? Well, I discovered,

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partly through lots of individual cases, but partly as a result of a

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report that was done by somebody called Lawrence Tom Lynnson, who I

:14:38.:14:42.

appointed. He collected case material which was exactly the kind

:14:43.:14:46.

you've just heard and is corroborated in your report. The

:14:47.:14:51.

problem we had was that there wasn't a smoking gun. There were a lot of

:14:52.:14:55.

people who had been shot but we couldn't see the evidence within the

:14:56.:14:59.

bank itself. I asked the bank to investigate this properly. They

:15:00.:15:03.

called in Clifford Chance, who as far as I know, did a fairly

:15:04.:15:07.

professional job, that they didn't have access to the material you've

:15:08.:15:11.

now got. Crucially, I asked the regulator, the Financial Conduct

:15:12.:15:13.

Authority, to do a proper investigation. They should have

:15:14.:15:16.

published last year, but they haven't. It's worse than that

:15:17.:15:21.

because I think they started the report back in the third quarter,

:15:22.:15:27.

the end of 2013. And they said it would be ready in the third quarter

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of 2014. I think we're now in the third quarter of 2016. What is going

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on? Well, the conspiracy theories or just inefficiency, I don't know.

:15:39.:15:44.

What would the conspiracy theory be? That they're covering tracks from -

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Why would they cover the tracks of RBS? I don't know. From my point of

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view, I was the minister who asked them to investigate. I'm very, very

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disappointed that they haven't published it. Why they haven't

:15:57.:16:02.

published it I don't know. Looking at the documents that we've got,

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they lock a smoking gun because they are the conversations going on

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internally. That's what we lacked before. There were a lot of people

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damaged, there was circumstantial evidence that the bank were

:16:15.:16:19.

profiting from these activities. But the other people would looked at it

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have hitherto said well there's bad practice, but there's no evidence

:16:24.:16:27.

it's been done systematically. Now this evidence you've acquired,

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suggests that it may well have been. It is possible, the bank would say,

:16:36.:16:39.

we are just people who are not understanding the game they are in,

:16:40.:16:44.

they are trying to retrieve money for a taxpayer, incidentally, and

:16:45.:16:50.

businesses who are in trouble are probably making the money in fees

:16:51.:16:54.

and interest rates but are losing money on the fact they are writing

:16:55.:16:57.

off chunks of their loan, and they are entitled to say they are going

:16:58.:17:02.

to play hardball and by going to get everything they can? We are talking

:17:03.:17:08.

about events in the aftermath of the financial crisis, there is a long

:17:09.:17:12.

time lag, you are right, they are acting in the interests of the

:17:13.:17:17.

taxpayer and even if they are found at fault, they will be fine, with

:17:18.:17:21.

the taxpayer taking the fine, ludicrous situation. The fact is

:17:22.:17:26.

many thousand companies will have been affected and many people will

:17:27.:17:30.

have been ruined, marriages and mental health will have been

:17:31.:17:33.

affected, and when it has happened on this scale, we cannot let this

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matter drop. Thanks for joining us. Who in Britain should decide

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what Brexit looks like? The Government is clear,

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and it reiterated its position again today in a statement to the Commons:

:17:42.:17:44.

it has to negotiate withdrawal and it has to decide

:17:45.:17:47.

what we negotiate. It says the mandate for Britain

:17:48.:17:50.

to leave the European Union is It also says it doesn't want any

:17:51.:17:53.

kind of obstruction from So get out the way, leave the three

:17:54.:18:01.

Brexiteers and Theresa May to it. But there is another view,

:18:02.:18:05.

which is that Parliament should have the say on what kind

:18:06.:18:08.

of deal we aim for. Now it is mostly Remainers who want

:18:09.:18:11.

that, but not exclusively. This Conservative MP voted to Leave

:18:12.:18:14.

and trenchantly made Nearly half of those who voted

:18:15.:18:16.

wanted no substantive change at all in the relationship

:18:17.:18:22.

between this country Their voices, although they did not

:18:23.:18:24.

chime with my own, appear entirely to have been forgotten

:18:25.:18:30.

in the rhetoric of hard Brexit which has somehow become

:18:31.:18:32.

received wisdom on the part The government has

:18:33.:18:34.

no mandate for that. You cannot extrapolate

:18:35.:18:38.

from the result of the referendum the specific terms upon

:18:39.:18:42.

which the majority of those in this country wish their relations

:18:43.:18:45.

with the European Union And that can only be done by seeking

:18:46.:18:47.

a mandate from this House to which the citizens of this

:18:48.:18:53.

country return honourable members Our political editor,

:18:54.:18:55.

Nick Watt, is with me. Are the government going to stick to

:18:56.:19:07.

this? Very much. That in passionate plea from Stephen Phillips was

:19:08.:19:10.

rebuffed by the speaker on the grounds that the Labour Party is

:19:11.:19:13.

having a debate on this matter on Wednesday, so let them get on with

:19:14.:19:17.

it. Some people were taken by Stephen Phillips who say maybe that

:19:18.:19:21.

is a better option, if he had got his way he would have knocked out

:19:22.:19:24.

the Labour debate and there would have just been a vote on a

:19:25.:19:30.

generalised motion instead. But now with the Labour debate we have a

:19:31.:19:33.

vote afterwards on a specific motion which is likely to call on the

:19:34.:19:36.

government to seek the consent of MPs in Parliament regarding its

:19:37.:19:41.

Brexit negotiations and there are some Labour MPs and a small number

:19:42.:19:44.

of Conservative MPs who said they will maybe defeat the government and

:19:45.:19:49.

that will not use David Davis who had ruled out a vote in parliament

:19:50.:19:54.

on those Article 50 negotiations. It is a non-binding vote on Wednesday.

:19:55.:20:00.

Yes. In terms of the substance of the negotiations, anything we didn't

:20:01.:20:06.

know? David Davis said he would update MPs, and to days word he

:20:07.:20:09.

covered a large piece, you play down the significance of the fall in

:20:10.:20:14.

sterling and he gave a strong indication that in his mind UK would

:20:15.:20:18.

not remain a member of the single market and it would not remain a

:20:19.:20:22.

member of the customs union, but eyebrows were raised when he had a

:20:23.:20:25.

pop at the French president Francois Hollande and Angela Merkel, remember

:20:26.:20:31.

last week Francois Hollande said the UK would have to pay a price for

:20:32.:20:34.

leaving to discourage others and Angela Merkel said if the UK wanted

:20:35.:20:38.

to remain in the single market outside the EU it would have to

:20:39.:20:43.

accept free movement of people. This is what he said in his exchange with

:20:44.:20:46.

Crispin Blunt about Francois Hollande.

:20:47.:20:53.

What plans does he have to publicly to publicly ennumerate

:20:54.:20:55.

the implications of there being no deal at the end of two

:20:56.:20:58.

What I will say to him at this point, is that...

:20:59.:21:05.

If the European Union adheres to a punishment plan and it fails,

:21:06.:21:10.

as I believe it would, then that's an even bigger

:21:11.:21:12.

incentive to countries that want to leave, than a punishment

:21:13.:21:15.

One senior Whitehall source said that by taking on Europe's two most

:21:16.:21:27.

powerful leaders, David Davis was displaying what this person said was

:21:28.:21:29.

an unhelpful swagger. Thank you. Joining me now is the Shadow Foreign

:21:30.:21:34.

Secretary, Emily Thornberry, and Bernard Jenkin, Conservative MP

:21:35.:21:36.

who was one of the leading He also chairs the Commons Public

:21:37.:21:39.

Administration Committee. How would the House of Commons

:21:40.:21:49.

express a view on a complex multidimensional negotiation? What

:21:50.:21:54.

form would that take? It has a commons is not very good at voting

:21:55.:21:59.

for complex things, it is very binary -- the House of Commons. I

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understand that, but we're getting no information from the government

:22:05.:22:07.

about how it is they are going to negotiate Brexit. We start on the

:22:08.:22:10.

basis that we have instructions on the British people that they want to

:22:11.:22:14.

leave and we want to do our job properly and we want to leave in the

:22:15.:22:17.

best interests of the British people. I don't think this is right.

:22:18.:22:22.

That the Tories have a mandate to go into a locked room and fight it out

:22:23.:22:25.

amongst themselves and then decide which way they are going to leave

:22:26.:22:29.

Europe, it is the future of my children and my grandchildren at

:22:30.:22:32.

stake, the future of the economy and we think the government should come

:22:33.:22:35.

to Parliament and put forward a plan. A plan before they negotiate?

:22:36.:22:44.

Yes. They say they are paying their cards close to their chest because

:22:45.:22:46.

it could undermine their position, but we know they have a load of

:22:47.:22:50.

different ideas for stop what Philip Hammond things is different to what

:22:51.:22:53.

Theresa May things and is different to what Liam Fox things, so on what

:22:54.:22:59.

basis are we going to Europe? And different to what Bernard Jenkin

:23:00.:23:04.

thinks. I'm sure it is. What is the mandate for the government taking

:23:05.:23:08.

this ahead and doing it? The biggest ever vote cast for any single

:23:09.:23:11.

proposition in this country ever, that is the mandate, to leave the

:23:12.:23:17.

EU. The Leave campaign was very clear that leaving the EU meant

:23:18.:23:23.

leaving the single market and the Remain campaign said if you vote to

:23:24.:23:26.

leave we will have to leave the single market, so I don't see why

:23:27.:23:28.

there is any argument about this now. What you are relying on is

:23:29.:23:34.

Michael Gove, on one television programme saying he was... Saying we

:23:35.:23:40.

would have to leave the single market. During the Brexit vote,

:23:41.:23:45.

there was no, it was not clear what the options were, yes, we were going

:23:46.:23:48.

to leave, but there are different ways of leaving the European Union,

:23:49.:23:52.

and those options were not made clear. If you are lying on Michael

:23:53.:23:57.

Gove, remember he is the man whose wife said you are only supposed to

:23:58.:24:01.

blow the doors. He was not even serious in terms of leaving. It is

:24:02.:24:10.

an important point, we are holding the Leave campaign to its promises

:24:11.:24:17.

because they are not giving us 350 in pounds a week for the NHS. -- 300

:24:18.:24:25.

?50 million. Norway is not in the European Union, so that is

:24:26.:24:28.

compatible, if we adopt their model, that would be compatible with the

:24:29.:24:33.

vote? On the question of accountability. Just answer the

:24:34.:24:38.

question. It would be compatible with what the public voted for?

:24:39.:24:46.

Except the Leave campaign said the Norway option would not be our

:24:47.:24:50.

choice and we made that clear, and the Remain campaign said it would be

:24:51.:24:54.

the worst option of all possible worlds, so who was advocating for

:24:55.:25:00.

the Norway option? Nobody. The Swiss model is compatible with what the

:25:01.:25:03.

public voted for, and the Canadian model is compatible. All of these

:25:04.:25:09.

models are compatible. If I can just make my point. If I could make one

:25:10.:25:14.

point about accountability, in the introduction to this discussion, it

:25:15.:25:18.

was pointed at their is a debate on Wednesday and there will be a vote.

:25:19.:25:22.

You could have put down a vote about what kind of Brexit you want, but

:25:23.:25:25.

you are not doing that, you are having a family row about procedure.

:25:26.:25:35.

It is not a family row. -- phoney. Your party is more divided than we

:25:36.:25:43.

were about Brexit. You guys are in government, you have a new leader

:25:44.:25:47.

who is taking a new direction and she did not even stand for

:25:48.:25:50.

leadership herself, she has no manifesto, she has no mandate. It is

:25:51.:25:54.

not clear on what basis you are leaving and it is right for us as

:25:55.:25:57.

the opposition to hold you to account, excuse me. We are saying,

:25:58.:26:02.

tell us what your plan is, we want to have a debate, the British people

:26:03.:26:08.

need to know. You owe it to them. At the moment the government is

:26:09.:26:10.

developing a plan, and when they have a fully fledged band I've no

:26:11.:26:15.

doubt it will be tabled. -- fully fledged plan. The idea is that

:26:16.:26:21.

Parliament will not have a say on that plan. That is not the case,

:26:22.:26:25.

there will be a second reading of the vote in May or June on the

:26:26.:26:29.

repeal Bill. That is not the same point. By that stage you will have

:26:30.:26:35.

triggered Brexit. We need to have it before you triggered Brexit. They

:26:36.:26:41.

are a motion. We need to know on the basis on which you are going into

:26:42.:26:46.

those negotiations, you have two years after triggering Brexit and we

:26:47.:26:49.

want to know the basis on which you are doing it. What is the plan on

:26:50.:26:54.

migration and the continuing relationship with Europe. The single

:26:55.:26:58.

market. I can answer those questions. The Prime Minister made

:26:59.:27:04.

clear in her speech two weeks ago that what migration policy we have

:27:05.:27:07.

as a country after we leave is a matter for the British Parliament,

:27:08.:27:11.

that is a separate matter from taking back control over migration

:27:12.:27:14.

which is not negotiable, end of story. What you think the majority

:27:15.:27:26.

view in would be? -- what do. If you take the spectrum of options, exit

:27:27.:27:32.

options, where would the majority be? The majority in parliament and

:27:33.:27:37.

in the country, I think whether they voted to remain or to leave, did not

:27:38.:27:41.

vote to take someone else's job away, did not vote to undermine the

:27:42.:27:49.

economy, that is the priority. Where do you think the majority in

:27:50.:27:53.

parliament would be? When it becomes clearer what the government is

:27:54.:27:57.

proposing, that is the only practical way forward, and when

:27:58.:28:00.

people understand that there isn't this Armageddon black hole in front

:28:01.:28:02.

of the country, because we are leaving the European Union, the

:28:03.:28:06.

House of Commons will support the position of the government, that is

:28:07.:28:10.

what I think. What ever they come up with they will support. And if they

:28:11.:28:16.

welcome you when put it to a vote, anyway. There are lots of votes. --

:28:17.:28:24.

and if they won't come at you when put it to a vote, anyway. We will

:28:25.:28:31.

come back to this. It is a procedural point, she's arguing. It

:28:32.:28:32.

is about substance. Or a debasement of American

:28:33.:28:38.

democracy? Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump had

:28:39.:28:43.

a messy 90-minute encounter, And if you thought it might be

:28:44.:28:45.

the end of Trump, you were wrong. Mark Urban has been looking

:28:46.:28:50.

at what we learned. Donald Trump went into the second

:28:51.:28:58.

debate after a wretched weekend, where he is demeaning comments about

:28:59.:29:01.

women resulted a one poll putting Hillary Clinton 14 points ahead. She

:29:02.:29:07.

sought to capitalise on her advantage. I said starting back in

:29:08.:29:14.

June that he was not fit to be president and commander-in-chief and

:29:15.:29:19.

many Republicans and independents have said the same thing. What we

:29:20.:29:27.

all saw and heard on Friday was Donald talking about women, what he

:29:28.:29:33.

thinks about women, what he does to women, and he has said that the

:29:34.:29:40.

video doesn't represent who he is. But I think it is clear to anyone

:29:41.:29:45.

who heard it that it represents exactly who he is. With Republican

:29:46.:29:51.

party bigwigs melting away, and facing widespread condemnation,

:29:52.:29:55.

Donald Trump went on to the offensive, fighting on multiple

:29:56.:29:58.

fronts, first off, his attitude to women. He called out Bill Clinton

:29:59.:30:04.

for alleged sexual assaults but also attempted deflection, than Bastin

:30:05.:30:08.

Hillary Clinton for breaching of secrecy laws with her private

:30:09.:30:12.

e-mails -- than Bastin. And covering up afterwards. I did not think I

:30:13.:30:17.

would say this, but I'm going to say this and I hate to say it, but if I

:30:18.:30:24.

went, I am going to instruct my Attorney General to get a special

:30:25.:30:28.

prosecutor to look into your situation, because there has never

:30:29.:30:33.

been so many lies, so much deception, there has never been

:30:34.:30:35.

anything like it, we're going to have a special prosecutor. In this

:30:36.:30:41.

90 minute onslaught Donald Trump interrupted her or the moderator 27

:30:42.:30:45.

times, she interrupted just three times. And at moments she was on the

:30:46.:30:53.

ropes. Nobody wants dizzy Hillary Clinton thrown into a, but they do

:30:54.:30:57.

want to see her held accountable for the e-mails and the foundation and

:30:58.:31:02.

it is the reason why Trump has done so well in this campaign, voters

:31:03.:31:06.

think that he is the only one that would actually hold Washington

:31:07.:31:11.

accountable. As the debate moved past its first half-hour, it allowed

:31:12.:31:16.

Trump to allow a second perceived weakness on policy substance where

:31:17.:31:20.

he tried to make the running on health care tax and foreign affairs.

:31:21.:31:24.

But he ran into problems here, as well, disavowing remarks on Syria by

:31:25.:31:29.

his own vice president shall running mate. He and I haven't spoken and I

:31:30.:31:35.

disagree. You disagree with your running mate? Right now Syria is

:31:36.:31:40.

fighting ices and we have people that want to fight both at the

:31:41.:31:48.

signed time. -- Isis. The sensor disarray means he hasn't done enough

:31:49.:31:52.

to reassure the party grandees who now wonder if they should let him

:31:53.:31:56.

hang out to dry. I'm not sure if they would publicly abandon him,

:31:57.:32:00.

that would probably impact the down ticket just as badly so they are

:32:01.:32:04.

trying to figure out the way they can triage the situation. As the

:32:05.:32:10.

house bigger told its members, it is important to find out what is

:32:11.:32:14.

important in your district. He is not going to defend Donald Trump,

:32:15.:32:17.

but they do not think abandoning the nominee is going to get Republicans

:32:18.:32:19.

to the polls. Here Trump has shown contempt for

:32:20.:32:29.

the GOP elite, may delight his base but it could hurt him on polling

:32:30.:32:33.

day. I definitely think it hurts him. There's no question about it.

:32:34.:32:36.

He needs to have as many people supporting him as possible. The

:32:37.:32:41.

truth is Donald Trump is never really been a Republican in my view.

:32:42.:32:44.

He's an independent. He's always really been an independent. After

:32:45.:32:48.

nearly 90 minutes of slugging it out. They were asked to name one

:32:49.:32:52.

thing they admired about the other. Hillary went first. Iery inspect his

:32:53.:32:59.

children -- I respect his children. His children are incredibly able and

:33:00.:33:03.

devoted and I think that says a lot about don oold. That hit Trump where

:33:04.:33:10.

it hurts, with his lamentable attempts to improve his image with

:33:11.:33:14.

women, where after the last few days, he has further to go than

:33:15.:33:18.

ever. I don't believe he will have improved among women. His apology

:33:19.:33:22.

wasn't well received. The comments that he made really bothered women

:33:23.:33:27.

in particular. And frankly, in that debate, Hillary Clinton has run as a

:33:28.:33:30.

champion of women. That's going to do well for her. What I do see

:33:31.:33:35.

happening is that Trump continues to improve among men. You've got the

:33:36.:33:39.

biggest gender gap in the history of American politics. Good night

:33:40.:33:45.

everyone. The debate hardly revived Trump's fortune, but it did

:33:46.:33:49.

supporters argue, show his refusal to buckle under pressure.

:33:50.:33:52.

Well, this is clearly no ordinary election and Mr Trump does

:33:53.:33:55.

not have the support of many natural Republicans.

:33:56.:33:58.

He's in the UK at the moment, speaking at an Intelligence Squared

:33:59.:34:03.

He has declared his support for Hillary -

:34:04.:34:08.

I spoke to him earlier today, so does he think Donald Trump's

:34:09.:34:13.

I would say yes, but I've been absolutely wrong

:34:14.:34:24.

And so I think I may hex it if I just said yes.

:34:25.:34:30.

Before this latest revelation of the inner Trump.

:34:31.:34:36.

He was already slipping in the polls.

:34:37.:34:43.

Now the thing to keep one's fingers across is, Hillary has

:34:44.:34:46.

the electoral maths on her side, and yet she remains dependent

:34:47.:34:51.

on groups of voters who are famous for not voting.

:34:52.:34:57.

So, will she be able to get them out?

:34:58.:35:00.

Of course, he's doing everything he can to help.

:35:01.:35:02.

So my guess is, yes, I don't think his campaign is viable.

:35:03.:35:07.

What portion of good college educated, professional

:35:08.:35:09.

Generally speaking when pressed they will say, well,

:35:10.:35:21.

he was my 18th choice for Republican candidate.

:35:22.:35:23.

An office like the Presidency of the United States has to have

:35:24.:35:27.

It is to the point for me, simply, that I would rather have

:35:28.:35:33.

someone whose judgment I don't think greatly of and whose character

:35:34.:35:37.

To my mind she is wrong about everything, but she is

:35:38.:35:49.

wrong within the normal parameters of wrong.

:35:50.:35:52.

It's a kind of wrong we've had before.

:35:53.:35:56.

And I think a phenomenal like Trump is part of an underlying frustration

:35:57.:36:12.

That has shown itself in all sorts of populist outbreaks

:36:13.:36:21.

Trump, a rather comic version of that.

:36:22.:36:27.

And if you want truly tragic, Vladimir Putin, too, is a populist.

:36:28.:36:38.

And Brexit is a sort of example of it.

:36:39.:36:40.

So is the rejection by the Colombians

:36:41.:36:43.

So, you know, to what extent it is a comfort

:36:44.:36:49.

What do you think of the Republican establishment?

:36:50.:36:59.

Is there anything they could have done to stop him?

:37:00.:37:03.

And a lot of them lined up to endorse him but were then

:37:04.:37:06.

apparently shocked at this tape of sexual predatorship.

:37:07.:37:10.

Did you find anything surprising in that tape?

:37:11.:37:13.

Did you get a new insight into the real character

:37:14.:37:15.

To be perfectly fair to Donald Trump, it was a weak field.

:37:16.:37:24.

It may have looked good from afar but in point of fact

:37:25.:37:27.

each of the candidates turned out to be lukewarm.

:37:28.:37:31.

Dividing up the good sense vote, and leaving the poor sense vote

:37:32.:37:39.

Then, not universally, but they lined up pretty quickly

:37:40.:37:47.

to endorse him and then did Rick from Casablanca.

:37:48.:37:54.

That this man should say those things.

:37:55.:38:00.

Do you think impartial broadcasters and impartial newspapers should try

:38:01.:38:02.

and cover this election in the way they would normally cover

:38:03.:38:06.

an election between two candidates?

:38:07.:38:09.

I think we just have to endeavour to do our best,

:38:10.:38:18.

to find the best obtainable version of the truth.

:38:19.:38:21.

To keep a straight face through some of this,

:38:22.:38:25.

Would you use the phrase American politics is broken?

:38:26.:38:32.

It's always had difficulties, hasn't it?

:38:33.:38:36.

Are we in a particularly silly moment?

:38:37.:38:44.

And is there danger in that silliness?

:38:45.:38:48.

All of the above, yes. But, you know, democracy is always

:38:49.:38:50.

It's a scary way to govern ourselves.

:38:51.:38:54.

And the scariest part of it all of course being the famous

:38:55.:38:57.

Churchill quote," it's worse than everything except everything

:38:58.:39:01.

So, don't want to fall off that tightrope.

:39:02.:39:10.

Now, you may have been following the rather worrying spate of people

:39:11.:39:22.

dressed as knife-wielding clowns, terrifying unsuspecting punters

:39:23.:39:25.

here's and abroad. The traditional view of the happy or at least sad

:39:26.:39:30.

clown seems to have been consigned to history's rubbish bin. We've

:39:31.:39:35.

tried to pin point the exact moment when clowns became irredeemably

:39:36.:39:38.

scary for this generation. Our best guess is this: From the adaptation

:39:39.:39:46.

of Stephen King's It from 1990. If you're afraid of clowns, look away

:39:47.:39:51.

now. Good night. Come on up Richie. I've got a balloon for you. Don't

:39:52.:39:59.

you want a balloon? What's the matter, one balloon not enough? Try

:40:00.:40:13.

a bunch! LAUGHTER

:40:14.:40:20.

Presented by Evan Davis.

With an exclusive RBS investigation, reaction to the US presidential debate, and a PJ O'Rourke interview. Plus, should parliament vote on Brexit?


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