19/10/2016 Newsnight


Evan Davis with reports on child refugees, customs unions, the future of banks, a retrospective pardon for gay men, and writer John Banville.

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Is it the usual refugee-bashing panic, but this time applied


Or are adults taking Britain for a ride, stretching the word


"children" in order to get into the country?


Which is worse - giving refuge to grown-ups that


Or leaving children behind that you did?


The refugee issue keeps on dividing the nation.


All safe passage clients but go through our process are verified,


bake the family link and the age. I think it's a distraction, these are


children that need to be treated like children.


We'll ask how you tell children and adults apart,


Also tonight, this man was boss of Barclays until last year.


Listen to what he's saying now, in this film he's made for us.


I believe that in 20 years' time we may not need banks at all. We'll see


a wave of technology driven financial services that will change


the way we all use and move money. It's not that the banks can't adapt,


it's that the system is fundamentally broken.


And we talk to former Man Booker winner, the Irish novelist


John Banville, and now author of the TV Crime series,


I watch these things like The Bridge but every single one of these shows


start off with a young woman being raped, murdered, is and thrown into


a garbage dump. If I were a woman I would be protesting very loudly


about this. There are times when every normal


teenager wants to be an adult. And there are also those abnormal


times, when certain teenagers desperately want to be


treated as children. The line between the two


is sometimes a fine one. The pictures of some of the young


people being brought into this country from Calais has led


to a certain indignant surprise among some - it has ignited


predictable suggestions that adults are making a mockery of our attempt


to help children. That we are giving refuge to people


we didn't mean to let in. That may or not be true,


but it does seem that last week's bid to bring some of the children


of Calais here was Secunder Kermani has spent the day


in the Jungle. The camp they call the Jungle is


home to up to 10,000 migrants, men, women, families and around 1000


unaccompanied children. All this is meant to be raised to the ground in


the next few days so belatedly the Home Office has begun to focus its


efforts on bringing over those children eligible to come to the UK


because they have relatives in Britain. Some of those who have been


brought over, according to critics, look far older than 17. Here in


Calais there are different criticisms, that what is being done


is too little too late. I think we can all agree today is one to


celebrate. We've seen 15 unaccompanied children arrive safely


and legally in the UK in the arms of their loved ones as part of this


process. But the process is chaotic and confusing here on the ground in


Calais. We've got hundreds of children eligible for this process


and we are very concerned but the vulnerable ones will be left behind.


There is some talk of the process allowing in people who aren't really


children as well, do you have concerns about that? I don't, I


trust the Home Office's verification process and all clients who go


through our process are verified. With the family link and the age of


that child. I think it's a distraction, these are children who


need to be treated like children. Those unaccompanied children who


have relatives in Britain are interviewed by officials in Calais


and their relatives are contacted to. This boy is from Afghanistan and


has just started the process, telling authorities he is 13.


TRANSLATION: I submitted my case they said they would hear from -- I


would hear from them in three days. One of his friends died last month


trying to board a lorry. He had a brother in Manchester and was


eligible but delays with his application led him to take his


chances. He was a friend, he was a good guy, but he died. That incident


happened and London should take in more miners so incidents don't


happen like this in future. There clearly are lots of genuine and


vulnerable children here, there are also many desperate enough to claim


to be children to escape. For those over 18, the closure of this camp is


unlikely to be the end of their journey, despite French plans to


relocate them across the country. The worry is the people who won't


seek asylum in France and won't go to accommodation centres, and still


want to live in the UK. They'll be forced to disappear and won't have


the support of the organisations or infrastructure here to supply them


with quality of life. How many people are likely to want to try and


get to Britain? I imagine there will be thousands. Frustration in the


camp has increased as the deadline to demolish it draws ever closer. As


the light goes down in Calais, that's when the tensions between


those living in the camp and the police begin to rise. You see the


scenes of conflict with tear gas being thrown. We've been told by aid


workers that with the imminent destruction of the camp coming,


those living here including the children, are becoming more and more


desperate in their attempts to get to Britain. This is clearly no place


for any child. But even if the Home Office somehow manages to bring over


all those children with relatives in Britain, it leaves stranded here


even more with no link to the UK but desperate to go there.


Conservative Councillor David Simmonds is responsible


for children's services at Hillingdon Council,


which covers Heathrow Airport and oversees the processing of many


Beth Gardiner Smith is the organiser on child refugees from Citizens UK,


which oversees Safe Passage, who you saw in the film.


Beth, is it being well handled this attempt to bring some of the


children to the UK or is it a bit of a model? It's fair to say it is


quite shambolic what is going on at the moment. In the camp you can't


people with megaphones walking around calling for children to come


forward to register themselves on separate lists. Who is doing that?


UK mandated agencies. Going around with megaphones? Calling for


children to put themselves forward because the clock is ticking,


demolition is within a matter of days, and they simply don't have the


information they need. As I understand it organisations like


yours have been carefully compiling lists. Absolutely, and we've


submitted those to the Home Office, they have them and we are working


with them to bring those children know that possible. But it is


chaotic. The Home Office has focused on this and we welcome that, but


it's been quite late in the day. It seemed like nothing was happening


and suddenly at the last minute... Indeed, we've been working for over


a year in Calais to get the Home Office to focus on the children who


have a legal right to come to the UK. You could give the Home Office


the names, the list, and you could find those young people and say we


think we know where they are? The reality is we have, and we've also


told them of discrepancies on their own list. The reality is it's chaos,


and the problem is that children will go missing in that chaos. We


are deeply concerned children are going to drop off those lists,


particularly vulnerable children, are not on any list and with


demolition days away they will simply disappear. Some who should be


coming will not get here? Absolutely. You've got a lot of


experience in the area. Is it a problem that adults pretend to be


kids and it's quite hard to tell the difference, they don't have any


documents, and you see people you don't believe our children? Councils


have been dealing with this problem for a long time. Back in 1999 the


Royal Society of paediatricians made it clear in their advice that


medical evidence was not reliable for determining someone's age


definitively and that was backed up by the British Dental Association.


Councils have to go through a process where trained staff


interviewed children to try and get the best possible information they


can to determine their age. Because young people are treated more


favourably by the way UK immigration works there is an incentive for some


who are trying to disguise their circumstances to pretend they are


younger than they are. In regards to Calais, we've always known the vast


majority of those there under 18 were older teenagers. We would


expect the people arriving wouldn't look like small children but they


would be people towards the age of 17 or 18. You do make some effort to


screen adults from children. I'm wondering how well you think you can


do that, if you're not using dental or medical techniques to do it,


interviewing people, can you really tell what age someone is by


interviewing them? The process that councils use start with checking out


what evidence is available to prove a person's age. That might be a


passport or birth certificate. Once we know which country a person has


come from will often make contact with the authorities in that country


because of the person doesn't have evidence, it may be the authorities


can provide it. In Afghanistan it's common to be able to track down


detailed records. If none of that is available then trained staff will


work in teams where they will look to interview a person over a period


of several days to get expert opinions from others which might


include doctors and other professionals, to look at what


they've been saying about their education, the things they've done


in their lives, to try and get a true picture. Whilst that won't give


you an exact date of birth it will give you a more accurate idea that a


person saying they are 16 or 17 is that age, or they might be in their


20s or as has happened sometimes, much younger. When you can properly


ascertained someone's age, maybe by getting documentary evidence, how


many turn out to have been lying? Is it the occasional person or are we


talking about a large minority? Of the total that come to the UK who


make an asylum claim and claim to be children, the proportion who are


subsequently found not to be children is quite high, it's around


60%. That's very high. It's very high in the overall number. That's


the historic record? That's extraordinary. That's consistently


over many years. The ones who come into the care of councils ones who


have already been through a UK border process that has identified


they are probably children. The proportion of those who go through


council assessment and turn out not to be children is lower, although


there are many councils who end up in the courts with disputes about


this. It's important we get the evidence right because we don't want


to see situations where adults trying to disguise their


circumstances might find themselves in a children's home with vulnerable


youngsters. Beth, your colleague in Calais called it a distraction, it


does sound bite that is a serious concern. If you have adults sitting


next to children, sleeping next to children... That's why you do the


checks in the first place and the Home Office does the checks before


the children are transferred to the UK. There are checks in place but


the real issue here is that the chaos is meaning that there are a


large number of highly vulnerable, very young children that are simply


not being catered for. The Home Office do not have a process that


those children who are eligible under the dogs law passed by


Parliament earlier this year. There is no process in place for those


children -- dubs law. We are working with children under 13, orphans who


are at serious risk, highly vulnerable, taking crazy risks every


night. All the while the Calais camp is due to be demolished in days.


Thank you. There is news tonight


that the government is about to announce a pardon


for all those convicted of the long abolished sexual offences,


notably buggery and gross As long it was consenting men over


16, and is not illegal This was in the Tory manifesto,


and follows the exceptional pardon that granted to the late Alan Turing


back in 2013. We are now joined by


George Montague, who was convicted Tell us about your conviction and


what it was for? May I start by saying that I was brought up in a


small country village where every boy longed to the Scouts. That


formed my character. You do your best and you never, ever tell a lie.


I woke one morning and thought, why am I still living a lie? I just


started campaigning for an apology to all gay men. In my generation to


be gay was to be guilty. You did not have to do anything at all. The best


young -- the best looking young policeman in the station was not


gay, not in uniform. They were not getting so many because we became


very clever and we were very disrupted -- discreet. But they sent


in these young policeman and so many, many men were caught and


convicted, all in the local newspapers. Several suicides. I


think to myself, why? Why don't I do something about it? Tell us how much


it means to you. In a way people will say it is of no practical


significance now. But maybe it isn't of practical significance, but it


sounds like it is more about setting the record straight? Yes. There


never should have been an offence of gross indecency. It didn't apply to


heterosexuals. Heterosexuals could do what they liked in doorways,


passageways, in the backs of their car. It only applied to gay men.


That is not right, surely? I want that complete law scrubbed, got rid


of, and my conviction scrubbed. We don't know all the details but are


you a happy man to hear that the government appears to be supporting


a Private members Bill being debated on Friday. The government are going


to give it time and say, let's white all of these fences off? I couldn't


be happier. Except one thing. I will not accept a pardon. To accept a


pardon means you accept you were guilty. I was not guilty of


anything. I was only guilty of being in the wrong place at the wrong


time. My name was on the queer list, which the police had in those days.


I will not accept a pardon. I think it was wrong to give Alan Turing,


one of my heroes, it was wrong to give him a pardon. What was he


guilty of? He was guilty of the same as what they call me guilty of.


Being born only able to fall in love with another man. I married. I loved


my wife. And you had children as well. We had children. You feel the


apology is more important than the pardon? They give Alan Turing an


apology first and then they gave him a pardon. You think the apology is


the more important of the two, particularly for somebody who is


dead? If I get the apology, I don't mind about the pardon. It is not


only me. There are still 11,000 older men like me still alive. I


talked to some of them. My great friend, Lord Edward Montagu, he


served a year in prison. I said to him, come on, surely you deserve an


apology? And he said unlike lots of my contemporaries said, or George,


leave it. Let it lie. I am not going to. Something as happened. Thank you


for talking to us. You've seen technology


undermine high street travel Maybe you felt a bit sorry


for the people whose But imagine if technology


destroyed the banks? Would you shed tears,


or think of it as payback Well, this is not a hypothetical


question. Technology is undermining the banks'


business models right now. Don't take it from me -


take it from someone Anthony Jenkins was Chief Executive


of Barclays until last year - now he thinks banks


will potentially disappear. We asked him to make


a film to explain why. In 2008, banks in the UK


and across the world suffered one of the worst crises


in their history. Trust among consumers was lost,


the banks were too aggressive, too self-serving, too focused


on the short-term. Eight years on, while balance sheets


look a little healthier, what banks fear now is far scarier


than a credit crisis. Like the dinosaurs,


destruction could be rapid, Now British banks have always used


technology to improve products From the world's first


ATM here in Enfield, to the 40 million mobile banking


apps that were downloaded last year. But now banks face a challenge


of a totally new set of rivals, ones Many established industries have


already been disrupted. Consider how Uber has transformed


taxis, threatening to put traditional cab operators


out of business. So what are the Uber


moments for banks? People in businesses lend to each


other through online services that match lenders directly


with borrowers. These firms are entirely online,


with lower overheads With middlemen cut out,


borrowers get lower rates. Savers get better headline rates,


and the banks themselves Foreign exchange companies already


make it ten times cheaper to send money abroad


than traditional banking. They have managed to remove


all of the charges banks and brokers have kept hidden for decades,


and users have access to the real Driven by new technologies,


these companies are not only changing the way that customers


interact with banks, they're also changing the way


that businesses interact But while fintech businesses


are creating real change in how we interact with financial services,


they still ride on the rails of this These are still the businesses


holding almost all the world's money, and they're almost solely


responsible for moving it around. Whether you are taking


about a peer-to-peer loan, or moving your money overseas


online, you are still One of the most important roles


of banks is to hold accurate records Without banks, how would you know


when I said I was sending you ?10, One solution is distributed ledger


technology, a tamper-proof public record of every transaction


happening in the world without needing any kind


of banks to control it. If person A pays person B the system


knows whether person A has the money, and creates a public


record of the transaction without revealing the actual


balances and details to anyone. The same thing could be done


for savings and loans, bonds and shares - almost every


aspect of today's financial system. This technology is cheaper, quicker,


and even safer and more I believe that in 20 years,


we may not need banks at all. We will see a wave of


technology-driven financial services that will change the way


we all use and move money. It's not that the banks can't adapt


- it's that the system And while these technologies might


be bad news for traditional banks, it could be good news


for everyone else. Because this technology revolution


will allow a return to a banking system based on values that serve


customers better, reduce risk to society and improve


returns to shareholders. And isn't that the banking


system we all deserve? Antony Jenkins there, and we should


point out that he is involved I'm joined now by Hazel Morre,


co-founder of the investment bank, FirstCapital, which invests in some


of these fintech companies. Do you agree that it is going to be


a really big radical change in the next 20 years? I really do. In 20


years, banks may not exist in the kind of form we see them today. Many


industries have been totally disrupted by the Internet and


changing consumer behaviour. COBRA is the largest taxi company in the


world. It has no taxis. Amazon is the largest retailer in the world.


It has no shops. He did say that at the moment all of these apps and


platforms basically come back to banks. They use the banking system


as the platform of everything they are doing? They do. It is unlikely


we will see a wholesale replacement of the banking infrastructure. But


there are regulations coming down the line that will force banks to


open the infrastructure to third parties. There is the payment


services under to directive which will force banks to open up their


payment structures. Third parties will be able to offer services on


top. It will be like Openreach and broadband? Absolutely. The danger


for banks is that they become a utility. And all of the value goes


to the providers. A lot of people say why pay the banks such a big


margin if I can give money to you directly because we have an app? A


lot of this exists now. None of it has been stressed tested. Banks,


most of the time, our fine. It is only every 100 years they have a


horrible crisis and fall apart. Are you confident that peer-to-peer


lending, say, that when everybody wants to get out, there isn't going


to be a run on them and people will find they can't get their money out


because there isn't a big stock of capital as in a bank? That is a


valid concern. What is important to realise that peer-to-peer lending is


that it is not a substitute for a high interest savings account. It is


not something that you should invest in if you need your money in a


hurry. It is a relatively sophisticated product and it carries


high risk. It should only be part of, for example, a portfolio. In


2008, when the banking crisis started, it was most impossible for


small businesses to get loans. What peer-to-peer lending allows is an


alternative source of credit, which in some respects, should there be an


economic crisis, may provide more stability into the system because


there is a different sort of credit available. Am I right in thinking


that Britain is a leader in this fintech area because we are not bad


at technology and we are good at finance? Britain, in particular


London, has a fantastic opportunity in fintech to take a global lead in


what is a huge industry. In technology, clearly silicon valley


is the centre of major innovation, but silicon Valley is not a


financial centre. What we have in London and in the UK is an abundance


of customers and -- and an abundance of talent and technology. Put those


three together and there is an opportunity to develop some


important new businesses. Thank you for coming in.


The European dream of landing a space probe on Mars appears to be


shattered tonight amid growing concern that Schiaparelli has been


lost. The probe plunged into the hot dusty atmosphere and towards the


surface at 21,000 kilometres per hour. The plan was for a parachute


to be deployed. That was going to slow the descent. But radio signals


dropped out shortly before touchdown. I'm joined by Professor


Mark McCall Quesne. Terribly disappointing after greatest joy at


the fact that the mother ship had got into orbit earlier on. What is


the diagnosis of what has happened? We have to wait until tomorrow


morning to see if we actually have data which we captured during the


day via the mothership. The trace gas orbiter was monitoring


Schiaparelli as it went down. We will be downloading the data


overnight. By ten o'clock tomorrow morning we hope to have a much


better diagnosis of what actually happened yesterday. We think that,


in fact, the signals which we saw dropping out were about 30 seconds


before the surface, just as the parachute was jettisoned and we


started descending under the rocket thrusters which were going to slow


us right down. At the moment we don't know what we will look at it


carefully overnight. We can see a little video animation of what it


was meant to be. It is an incredibly dangerous and difficult thing to


make it work. As we stand now, what would you say the best case is? Is


it possible that it is all going to come right? I think it is possible.


As a non-betting person, I wouldn't want to stake anything on it.


Chances are less than 50%. This was a test and demonstration mission to


see how we could get down to the surface using the technology. The


critical thing is relaying the data back which has been captured by the


TGL. That will teach us a lot about the technologies we employed and how


to improve upon them for the mission we are looking forward to in 2020


when we put a Rover down to the surface and start driving around,


digging deep beneath the surface for signs of life. There are satellites


going around Mars, human satellites. Are we going to get a picture? Like


we had a picture of the one on the comment. Is it possible that we can


contact this thing or view it? We will certainly be working with the


Americans because they have the highest resolution camera in orbit


flying around, called high Rice. We will be trying to work out where we


did touchdown based on the data. They will be targeting to try to get


pictures of where we are. But again, everything we do in space is hard,


it is risky. We knew that today we would try something very difficult.


We should not lose sight of the fact that the trace gas orbiter itself


will be sniffing the atmosphere of Mars looking for gases like methane,


which may be indicators of life on the planet. That has been fully


successful. I think glass half empty, glass half full, we are


pretty happy about getting TGL into orbit.


It is a little reminiscent of Beagle two, which was such a disappointment


in the end. Are you feeling a gut wrenching sadness that the potential


for this being lost or is the TG oh part of it solace? When Beagle two


went down we had another satellite with it called Mars Express. It's


been operating very successfully. I can't hide I'm feeling a little bit


down this evening. It's something we planned for four years and we do


need to understand what happened. Maybe tomorrow morning will wake up


happier people. There's no doubting it, there are a bunch of people in


the hotel who are mulling over what happened to day. That's what we do,


we take an ambitious tasks and sometimes it works brilliantly well.


And today we had 75-80% success so we can't be too downhearted. Thank


you for talking to us. It is less than a week


until the winner of the Man Booker Prize is announced,


a useful reminder for the book-reading classes that it'll


soon to be time to purchase Now we can't tell you who has won


this year, but we can bring you news of a stocking filler from the man


who won it in 2005. He is the Irish novelist,


John Banville, whose bone dry and often biting wit is almost


as celebrated as his prose. He's now published a memoir


of Dublin, called Time Pieces. He's also been talking about U2,


the high body count in TV drama and what it means to be singled


out by the Booker jury Talking of whom,


here's Stephen Smith. I was very young when I first fell


in love with libraries. "Miss flushing, blonde, pink


and bespectacled, was one of three She stood behind her counter


at a raised level so that when I approached her to have my


week's borrowings stamped, I would find myself at eye level


with her magnificent conical breasts poking against the pale


blue angora jumper. It's that particular jumper


I see her inveterately in. I'm sure I would have fallen in love


with her, another of my phantom darlings, had her bust


been less intimidating." John Banville's new one


is a memoir of Dublin. Its characters, its splendid


Georgian architecture. So we've travelled with him


to central London, and its splendid We're in Fitzrovia, said to be


the model for a part But curiously, having written this


book, I now feel that in some way You must have approached it


with some trepidation, given your illustrious


predecessors. As a novelist it's almost impossible


to write about Dublin, because anywhere you mention


will already have been Everyone will say, this


is a reference to Joyce. John Banville's best-known


for his literary fiction, He won the Booker Prize in 2005,


he loved it, but with John Banville You said at the time that


you were pleased the Booker had been But also, I did think that now


and then it's good that a book like mine should win the prize,


that it's not to everybody's taste. I was interviewed by Irish radio,


they said, it's a great day Your first wife described


you working on a novel, you "were like a murderer


who'd just returned It takes a terrible


toll on one's family. We are monsters, we would sell our


children for a phrase. That could mean that you're just


an unpleasant man No, I think that it is


true of all writers. A friend of mine was at a dinner


party, and one of the people He was sitting opposite her,


and he was fascinated He suddenly realised she was just


learning how to do him. For the new memoir, Banville went


round Dublin with a chum, who had a place next


door to U2's studio. I don't suppose John has


any stories, does he? I think that I'm one of the few


people who has thrown # What more in the name


of love # I had a nice house in North Dublin,


a lovely garden. At the back of the garden


was an old orchard. I went out there one beautiful


summer morning, and there And I said to them, this


is private property. They all very politely


got down and went away. Many years later I realised


that it was U2 I had There was a house at the end


of the garden and they were staying there, and they had just come out


there to have a rest in the trees Under the pen name Benjamin Black,


Banville's written the casebook of a 1950s Dublin pathologist,


Quirke, who is played on TV My wife said to me,


it'll never do well, Nowadays it has to be extreme


violence, there has to be blood all over the place,


you have to be wading through blood. I watched these things


like The Bridge and so on, but every single one of these shows


simply start off with a young woman being raped and murdered


and eviscerated and thrown If I were a woman I would be


protesting very loudly about this. Banville's fans will be glad to know


he is working on his next novel. All that experience


must come in handy. No experience teaches anybody


anything. When I was young I thought age


would bring wisdom, it doesn't, But I like confusion,


it's a nice state to be in. I think I said earlier that it was


in a private members bill, apparently not true, it's a Lib Dem


amendment to the policing and crime Bill.


On after us on BBC Two, No Such Thing As The News,


and if you really want to stay up late, don't forget the last


It'll be on the News Channel at two o'clock.


You can lie in bed and stream it on your smartphone, if that


We'll leave you now though with the music of Carter Burwell,


who this evening won Film Composer of the Year


at the World Soundtrack Academy Awards, as well as best


original music for None of Them Are You from


Charlie Kaufman's haunting 2015 stop motion love story,


MUSIC: "None of Them Are You" by Carter Burwell


# When I see your face or hear a name


# It doesn't matter they're all the same


Good evening. They could be a frost tonight but into the morning the


best of the sunshine, if you


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