24/10/2016 Newsnight

French police clear the Jungle. The migrant camp is closed and residents

out moved on. Britain welcomes a decisive resolution to a problem

that has been tolerated for years. Yes, this is September 2009, but

today, history is repeating itself. So, have the French this time found

a sustainable and humane way of really resolving the Calais crisis?

We have no choice but to stay here. Do you think that there could be

violence when the police come, they will try and maybe one? This is

something possible, but not sure. But violence is something we have

got used to. We will ask what Europe can do to handle the broader migrant

issue. Also tonight, our cut out and keep guide. Is it really possible

for different parts of the UK to slice out a different kind of exit?

A week into the battle to liberate Mosul, we offer a rare account of

life there under IS. I was stopped by the Hisbah and forcibly asked to

join an execution scene. There were five young men, they were handcuffed

and they got them on their knees. And this: Just be nice! Why can't

you be nice? You're the one who's not nice. I'm pregnant!

A different take on a difficult pregnancy. A documentary on what it

means to be a father. We will ask whether men should just supply

sperm, offer support and shut up, or is pregnancy a challenge for men,

to? The French seem to have a plan now,

even if they didn't have enough buses to implement it

all in one day. The residents are being taken

elsewhere in France to reception and orientation centres,

and there the migrants and refugees are given a chance to file

an asylum application. Now, that's the idea,

and it did get off the ground, but of course Calais,

the gateway to Britain, has had an irresistible magnetism

to many seeking a new life, so it's far too soon to say

the plan will succeed. Secunder Kermani is in Calais

and has been seeing how it has Well, the so-called Jungle at the

centre of all this is just about five minutes' walk up the road, and

the scene tonight is completely calm. In contrast to the tensions we

have witnessed on previous occasions. And that is really in

keeping with the mood of today, where we have seen hundreds of

migrants processed and taken on buses to reception centres across

France. What struck me was speaking to the migrants, how many of them

were happy or at least resigned to the idea of staying on in France,

but as you will see from my film in a minute, not everyone is, and the

question is of course whether in a few months for a few years, we will

be seeing another Jungle, another refugee camp of some kind spring up

here once again. They started queueing

well before dawn. After months and in some cases years

in the camp they call the Jungle, hundreds of refugees and migrants

waited to board buses taking them In effect giving up on their dreams

of coming to Britain and applying Clutching his artwork,

this man from Darfur displayed his wounds

from life in the Jungle. He's now fed up of trying to board

lorries to Britain. I try all three years,

trying, try, try. Three years you've been trying

to Britain? Happy too much, because it

is bad life, you see. In separate queues were the camp's

unaccompanied minors, waiting to be processed and taken

to a secure area of the Calais camp. Many with relatives in Britain hope

to be accepted by the Home Office. And your uncle in Epsom,

have you spoken to him? He say, come on, life

in the Jungle is no good. How long have you been

in the Jungle? All morning, there was a steady

and peaceful exodus The demolition work due to start

here tomorrow morning may have forced their hand,

but it is still surprising perhaps that so many seemed willing

to abandon their dreams of the UK This camp, awful as it was,

had become a kind of home to many people, and this was in effect

the main high street. Now it is more or less completely

abandoned except for the people making their way up through the camp

towards the areas where you queue And there are still some

who are staying on here, undecided about where to go

next still hoping to be Al Hassan studied chemical

engineering in Basra, Iraq. He has spent the last year living

in this hot with two friends, I am going to stay here,

and sleep rough if necessary. Because we have families in the UK,

and we need to go there Even when this whole

camp is closed down? We are adamant and

determined to stay here. Do you think that there could be

violence when the police come This is something

possible, but not sure. But violence is something

that we got used to. Why not just go

somewhere in France? You can see what a country

France is. We have been living

here for one year. No one cares about your medical

situation. So we just got the impression that

France is not good enough to take Some might trumpet this

is the historic end of a bone of contention between Britain

and France for years. But the Jungle isn't the first

refugee camp in Calais, and this isn't the first time one

has been closed down. TRANSLATION: The first certainty

is that it is the end But the end of the migration

question also depends on our relationship with the UK,

and we're still fighting to make sure that the UK accepts

unaccompanied minors who have families on the other

side of the Channel. Efforts have been made,

it's true, since the Amiens summit, Because as long as the UK refuses

a legal process that immigration, notably for unaccompanied minors,

then the situation will continue many locals were sceptical

about what would happen next. There's been talk of migrants moving

from here to nearby Dunkirk, and even returning to Calais

after a few weeks in the reception the problem somewhere else,

not necessarily in Calais They're probably going to move

elsewhere like we saw with Sangat. It's a good thing for Syrian people

and Eritrean, and also Because the camp decreases tourism

and impacts the economy. Close to 2000 migrants

were processed today, Authorities had hoped

to move around 3000. But this is a big

logistical challenge. Some would have to

come back tomorrow. Other migrants were just watching,

trying to plan their next move to get to Britain, like Mahmoud,

who spent his teenage years in London as a child asylum seeker

before being deported back years old, and you have been

there six or seven years, and I'm going to force you to go

back to your country, Can you stay in some

other country? Because my mind is same

like in the UK, I have a brother, Migrants and refugees have travelled

for months and for many miles to get We met some who even arrived

in Calais just last night. A lot now seem to have accepted

they will never make it to the UK. But others still believe they can,

and are willing to put up with conditions even worse

than these to get there. Now, the Calais situation

involves about 7,000 people. In the context of the bigger

European migrant crisis, that is a number that's

lost in the rounding. In fact, 7,000 people

arrived on European By resolving Calais,

we shouldn't kid ourselves that we're making much

of an impression on But if the French do manage to sort

out Calais, maybe they have a lesson or two that can be

applied more generally. Our diplomatic editor

Mark Urban has been looking at the bigger European picture,

at a migrant crisis that has perhaps One year ago, hundreds of thousands

were on the move across Europe. It was epic in scale,

and posed a profound But the migrant issue has,

for the past six months, I think far fewer people are coming

through the western Balkans route since about March this

year, when Merkel agreed The Western Balkans route has been

closed and Turkey has imposed

massive restrictions on the ability of Syrians to come

across Turkey and come across via

the Aegean route. So really, the door is closed

to the Western Balkans route. Over 1 million migrants

arrived in Europe in 2015. The number ten months into this year

is dramatically lower, 341,000. since the main route via Greece

and the Balkans was closed in March Most of those still arriving

are coming via Libya and Italy, with small flows

into Spain and Bulgaria. Arrivals in Italy, at 142,000

so far this year, are up, but only by 2% on the same

point in 2015. Most of those making the dangerous

journey from Libya are Africans from countries like Gambia,

Nigeria and Ghana. And having been rescued at sea,

they won't find the better life Some say that 98% will be

rejected for asylum. Not all will be sent home,

because the legal systems are slow So what happens is, they get sucked

into the informal economy. They get exploited, and eventually

perhaps get sent home. As for those who make Italy

or Greece and are accepted as refugees, an EU quota system

to resettle them Just 6,243 refugees have been

relocated in Europe. 1,392 from Italy,

and 4,852 from Greece. Compare that to the 160,000 that EU

countries pledged to welcome under quotas put forward

by Jean-Claude Juncker a year ago. The Juncker relocation plan

was doomed from the start. First of all, many European

governments The Visegrad countries

were opposed to it, but were strong-armed into agreeing

it, mainly by Donald Tusk Secondly, the problem

is within the Schengen area, even if we relocated people

to one particular country, nothing would stop

them moving onwards. Thirdly, it was only for 160,000

refugees, a tiny

proportion of the total. to believe it would never be

implemented, and that of course has

been the case. Those who made their way

to the Jungle were often people who had slipped out of Italian

reception centres, or made their way by

other obscure routes. France's decision to process them

now underlines the degree

to which national answers have come to define Europe's response

to this issue. Let's appraise what the French are

doing, and CF it can be applied more widely.

Catherine Woollard is the Secretary General

of the European Council on Refugees and Exiles -

Khalid Mahmood is Shadow Minister for Europe.

Catherine Woollard, I'm interested in what you think the French are

doing. Is this the right approach? I would start by quoting Lord dubs

after his visit to Calais, in which he said this is a disgrace for

Europe. Many of us would share that sentiment. Our members and

organisations working to support refugees in Calais have supported

the dismantling of the camp, but on condition that the people there have

their rights protected. For example, we would urge the continuation of

resettlement and transfer of unaccompanied children out of Calais

to the UK, where they have a right under family reunification as well

as under the Dubs Amendment, to be transferred. Do you not think it is

reasonable for France to say to these people, you can't languish in

Purgatory here, you have to apply for asylum here or fly home? Think

of the damage they are doing to the community around Calais. Is it not

reasonable to say, you have to apply? To some extent, this is what

is happening with the dispersal of people across the country. But must

remember that people have other rights. In some cases, there is a

right to family reunification to join family members in the UK. In

each case, the individual situation of the persons concerned should be

assessed and on that basis that future decided. Do you basically

think it is right to take these people away from Calais, which is

coming to be a traumatised town, and put them in beds rather than in the

mud, and said here, you are going to apply, and if you are successful,

you will get a job and be paid while you wait to find out? Isn't that

what you would do with refugees? This is why many of the

organisations working in Calais do support the dismantling of the camp.

But they want guarantees that people's rights to seek asylum

within France, the right to shelter while they are being processed and

so on will be respected. It is possible that people will end up in

a situation that is worse than Calais. At least a certain

infrastructure has developed within the camp. Widespread Khalid Mahmood,

do you support what the French are doing? I don't support what they are

doing necessarily. I do support the fact that people have been taken out

of the Jungle and been given some habitable conditions to be in. But

this is the third rerun of a similar situation since Sangatte. There

doesn't appear to be any learning of lessons as to why it keeps happening

here. We should look at the lessons from Greece and probably Turkey

before that. We haven't done that. The Council of Europe has failed.

The leadership of the councils of ministers have failed and the

leaders have failed to look at this strategically as a whole. So

everyone agrees that Europe has failed and it hasn't worked very

well, but what the French are doing, which is a national policy, they

cannot dictate what happens in Athens, but they can dictate what

happens in Calais, you support bossing people out of Calais and

putting them into reception centres and more or less forcing them to

apply for asylum or saying you have a few choices? I support people

being taken to habitable conditions where they can be treated medically

and move forward. Where there are doing it today, they haven't got

enough buses and they are forcing people to stand in queues. This

could have been done better by selecting different cohorts of

people, whether it is young people or elderly people and then men at

last. This has not been done with a plan. Well, it is not a thing that

happens very often. Today they bust 2000 people. But this is Europe. We

supposed to be civilised people. We are supposed to get these things

right and look after people's human rights. What about the rights of the

migrants in Athens, who are languishing on the streets,

thousands of people. Is it not reasonable to say, this can't go on

in Europe, we are going to take you and ask you to apply and if you are

allowed to stay, you stay, and if not, we send you home? I agree. We

should have done that from the start. Everyone agrees we would

rather not be where we are. Catherine Woollard, am I right into

King now, maybe for the first time, a lot of the migrants themselves are

saying yes, we should apply for asylum in France, we are tired of

hanging around in the mud? It seems that there will be more asylum

applications in France. I think the situation in Calais needs to be seen

in the context of the wider crisis within Europe. It's not just about

Calais, it is also about Greece, as you have mentioned. We are arguing

for appropriate standards across Europe so that wherever people are,

they can apply and receive protection in those countries. One

of the fundamental questions is why people don't apply in certain

countries, and that is often because those countries cannot guarantee

their safety. But isn't it because they would rather be in other

countries, and Europe at this point would probably say, we can't offer

you the luxury of choosing, you have to apply in the country in which you

currently reside? Well, it is more complex than that. There is the

right to family reunification. In some cases, people have the right to

apply in another country, and this is part of the Dublin regulation. In

other cases, let's look at the reasons why people want to apply in

a particular country. It is partly to do with language, partly to do

with family but also to do with wider community and the diversity of

particular countries, with economic prospects. Ultimately, insisting

that people apply in certain countries were continued the

situation where there are humanitarian crises in parts of

Europe because the asylum systems can't cope. People's prospects for

integration, which is the long term aim for those afforded refugee

status, will be better if there is some element of preference in where

they go. Do you agree with that, Khalid Mahmood? Obviously, if they

have families, it is different. But our government should have lived up

to its commitment of taking unaccompanied children into this

country. Very quickly, one idea for different is that they move the

border back to the UK. Their presidential candidate has mentioned

this. I expect it would not get approval from the Labour Party. It

is not approved by anybody. We have to treat these people as human

beings. Thank you both very much. Now, we've all had deeply

frustrating meetings, so we can sympathise

with Nicola Sturgeon, It was a gathering at Number 10

of the big chiefs But Scotland's First Minister came

out and said she'd learnt nothing about the Government's

plans, and that a hard What she wants, and many others,

I suspect, is for different parts of the UK to have different

relationships with the EU, Where will the hard borders be inked

in when the United Kingdom Might Brexit mean four different

things in the UK's four nations? Today, a meeting was held

at Downing Street to start

the formal process to consult the devolved administrations

on how Brexit might work. Now, the starting point

for everything is that the whole UK should leave together,

but there is a consensus around special treatment

for Northern Ireland. While Northern Ireland

is expected to leave the EU, Ireland and the UK want a soft

with minimal border checking to help maintain the Good Friday agreement.

So Northern Ireland might not end up feeling like it's left.

is pitching for something more radical for Scotland.

If we refresh our memories around the vote,

all of Scotland's 32 local authorities voted

So that is our First Minister's starting mandate

and indeed the Scottish Parliament, who have given her their support

in retaining our single market membership.

So any negotiations with the Prime Minister should have that

at the forefront in terms of absolute democracy.

Scotland staying in the single market even if the rest of the UK

leaves would be a big move, being open to EU migration, say,

while the rest of the country has a more closed approach.

Still, since there's been talk of a special deal

for the City of London, why not Scotland, ask the SNP?

But the idea of a city trade deal is not literally

about the geographical city of London,

they mean the financial services sector as a whole.

So it's not a plan for a special geographical carve-out.

So might ministers' plans for the island of Ireland

prove a model for what the SNP wants to do in Scotland?

What ministers plan for Ireland is relatively straightforward.

They want the border between the Republic of Ireland,

which will be in the EU, and Northern Ireland,

which will be out of the EU, to be relatively porous.

than having a portion of the United Kingdom

enter the European single market on its own.

And the reason for that complexity is actually painted here,

on the walls of Central Lobby in the Houses of Parliament.

St Andrew is still up there because Scotland is still in the UK,

and so not permitted to negotiate any such deals itself.

This plan would need, for a start, the UK Government

There was a very frank exchange of views.

In parts of the meeting, it was deeply frustrating.

I don't know any more now about the UK Government's approach

to the EU negotiation than I did before I went into the meeting,

I think we all hoped to have more set out

in terms of the high-level principles at least,

that the lack of detail was because the UK Government

doesn't yet know what it is trying to achieve.

In truth, though, our internal arguments may be moot.

Europe might simply not buy a plan like this.

I've not seen any credible worked up proposal of how that would work.

As far as I'm aware, there's no relevant precedent

What we have seen in some other member states

is special bespoke deals for particular territories,

normally quite small, isolated islands.

The SNP did not want the result we got on June 23rd.

But the vote demonstrated a very clear division

between England and Wales on one side,

Quite a helpful point for a party committed to Scottish independence.

Our political editor Nick Watt is here.

So it sounds like quite a scratchy meeting. Yes, you saw Nicola

Sturgeon they're saying how frustrated it was that she learned

nothing. She feels that the UK doesn't have a negotiating strategy

and she fears that Scotland may be driven off what she called a hard

Brexit cliff edge. That matters because at her party Conference

earlier this month, Nicola Sturgeon said that if there is a hard Brexit,

which she defines as taking Scotland out of the single market, she

reserves the right to demand a second independence referendum.

Theresa May has said she has no mandate for that and today she said,

you should not seek to undermine the one UK negotiation on Brexit. But

some of the SNP's opponents in Scotland are said to Theresa May,

you need to tread with care. Paul Sinclair, one of the leading lights

in the better together group, the pro-UK group in the first

independence referendum, he wrote in the Scottish Daily Mail today that

the SNP may be able to achieve what he called Scotland The Brave if they

can portray themselves as Scotland the insulted. Theresa May gave a

statement this afternoon about the European Council meeting she was at.

Did you learn anything? We learned at two interesting things. We

learned some interesting things about the timing of the

negotiations. She said she wants the negotiations that will lead to

Brexit, the two-year negotiation, to take place at the same time as the

negotiations on what will follow. It had been assumed that the framework

for what will follow would have to wait. She said she would like to

happen at the same time. She said that in answer to a

question from Sir Edward Leigh, the veteran Tory Eurosceptic. She said

she agreed with him that she wanted a free trade deal done by that time.

I understand that Theresa May is not thinking of a free trade deal with

the European Union, she is thinking of something far more ambitious. She

is thinking of a comprehensive relationship with the EU that will

not just cover trade, but will cover issues like counterterrorism. She

thinks that once you have the French election out of the way next spring,

the German election out of the way next autumn, there will be reality

and the European Union will realise it is in their interests to have a

trade and counterterrorism relationship. She can't shout about

that and that is why Nicola Sturgeon is so frustrated.

The week-old offensive against so-called Islamic State

in Mosul is progressing, and as was widely predicted

when it was launched, it's a slow and painstaking campaign.

But while there is precious little clarity about what will happen

to Mosul when IS is defeated there, it is certainly important to keep

remembering just how grim the IS occupation has been.

Newsnight has spoken to one woman who says she escaped from Mosul

in August, and she's given us a vivid description of life

under IS and we very much want to present it to you,

so we've put a voice and animations to her words.

However, we do need to be clear that we don't actually

She was introduced to us by the writer of a blog called

Mosul Eye, which has been communicating the plight of the city

for over two years, but the author of that is also anonymous.

We've done as much due diligence as we can,

but you can never vouch 100% for the reliability

It's because it's so hazardous for people to give us this kind

of testimony, though, that we think you should see it.

I used to walk down the street seeing the mix of every colour that

This is one of the most famous old markets in the city.

It used to be filled with people, especially women.

Because it is known for its famous stores of women's clothing.

One time, this street used to be filled with people.

Now, most of the stores have been abandoned.

The Islamic State has forced people, especially women, not to dress up

I try to be as invisible as I can, so I dress up all in black

and I walk down the street hoping that the Hisbah, the religious

security men, won't see any flesh showing of my hand or my foot,

so I won't give them any kind of excuse to stop me.

There was this old woman in front of me with her daughter.

They usually force even older women to wear black scarves.

The Hisbah went ahead and stopped her.

They tried to take her in order to punish her publicly,

She was like, you really think that you are the guards

You think that you know our religion better than us?

You think that you have the authority over us

And those men that she was talking to, they were teens.

Quickly, a scene created, where other men joined these women,

Their presence frightened the Hisbah.

They had this kind of message with their silence

It somehow broke my heart to see this, that even though they walk

down the street with their self-claimed power and clinging

to their weapons, believing that they are really controlling

the city, but underneath the surface, underneath the surface

This city hasn't really surrendered as much to Isil

Yes, they are silent, but they are really

Whatever you may have read about medieval times,

they are practising that on our people in Mosul.

One time, I was walking down in the market trying to reach one

On my way, I was stopped by the Hisbah and forcefully asked

It was very, very terrifying what I saw over there.

They brought the men, they were handcuffed.

They got them on their knees on the ground, and they started

For being an apostate, we heard you cursing God.

I see one giant man, all in black, covering his face

The crowd was big, and what disturbed me the most

is that there are so many children in this crowd, especially young

boys, the age of six and seven years old.

The day was hot, and those young boys were eating their ice cream.

They were eating their ice cream and they start the executions.

They were like, no, no, just wait, it is going to get more exciting.

We have a couple of your sisters here to be punished.

One of them was not wearing the longer skirt

And I just fled the scene along with everybody else until I made it

I was so sick of what I had seen, and I really couldn't sleep.

Just thinking about what I had seen, and whether I would ever

We kind of created our own lives within our worlds.

Everybody has created their own world within their home.

Completely different from what is outside.

They are literally so tired of the entire situation.

And they are basically set up to be killed one way or another.

Of user of life in Mosul under so-called Islamic State.

We all know - even if only from those that have been through it -

that pregnancy is a challenge for the mother, but a film to be

released next month documents the history of a very difficult

pregnancy, primarily through the eyes of the father.

No, this is me making you less anxious

if you'd just listen to the content of what I'm actually saying here.

There are two ways of looking at that central character, Josh,

in this film: a devoted husband struggling to manage his complex

feelings during his wife's pregnancy and feeling helpless in the face

of the problems, or as a bit self-absorbed.

But common to both those views is that pregnancy and childbirth

do affect the father, even if he is meant to be nothing

I'm pleased to say we have both Josh and Devora from the film with us.

And Josh actually made the film as well.

Good evening. How do you think he looked in the film, how do you think

he comes across, Devora? That is a good question. He does a very honest

portrait of himself. I admire his honesty in choosing to figure

himself that way, comically. He takes a holiday at the time of the

20 week scan, and a lot of us would say, that is just a tiny bit

selfish. I don't always want to be with him, actually, amazingly. I

recognised that he needed a break before he wouldn't have another one.

We hadn't done it before, so we didn't realise quite how important

the 20 week scan is. There is a touch of self satire when you form a

narrative, but I am all of those things. He is!

Is there a difference in male and female responses to it? Do men and

women differ in their responses to it? In the end, the film gets quite

difficult and things go wrong, so people's responses are generally

kind because we went through a tough thing in the end. Men seem to

identify with if not me exactly some of the things that come up. Just

explain in a nutshell why you think pregnancy is difficult for dads.

What is difficult about it? You are not carrying the thing, not going

through the whole minds. Exactly, we are not carrying the thing! We feel

that we're supposed to be maybe different from our Fathers'

generation, new men, not the old kind, we supposed to be more

emotionally present, physically present, are we happy about that? Is

it difficult? Is our role in question? I think there is a kind of

envy. There is this woman doing this incredible creative act which is the

one thing that no matter what else, you cannot do. It is true, Devorah,

the mother- child bond is one, you go back into mythology, it is a

tight one, and maybe it is difficult for the man because he is a bit

jealous? The notion of competition between the sexes and envy of my

creative life and him reacting by picking up a camera and trying to

make a movie, and the way in which the movie and the baby evolved

together, so the moment I did after a lot of years of trying conceive a

child, and he suddenly after a lot of years of trying, conceived a film

at the same time, and it took us quite a long time before we realised

that he was also the father of the child and I was also the director of

the film, we didn't really understand that these projects were

mutual until they were over in some way. Josh, it is interesting because

you in the film have a number of conversations with friends and other

people about what it is to be a father, including your own father.

Things have changed quite a lot over the generations. Even he says in the

film, it was an anthropological divide between me and my father, he

was completely unreachable and impossible, very hyper masculine, so

I think every generation goes through a phase of thinking we are

the new men and we have to be different, but there is a specific

flavour of that. Do men find it a bit hard generally to talk about

their responses, their jealousy, their sudden conflict of Will they

lose their masculinity because they are becoming domestic? It is rare to

see it portrayed intimately in a real way, but what we get together,

the main thing we complain about is how clap we are is parents and we

should be better and we feel guilty that we are not. The cliche is that

men get together and complain about their wives, but the truth is that

they are lashing themselves, whether that was true 40 years ago, I don't

know. Devorah, not many mothers have a

chance to look back at the tapes of your pregnancy, you have everything

in balance, so what would be the advice, what does a good,

supportive, devoted father do? What is my advice to men? My advice is

this. Collaborate with your woman, your partner who, whoever your

partner is, because it is a partnership, and in our partnership,

it took on this mantle of the Battle of the sexes somehow. No, it didn't!

Should the ideal husband open up to the emotions and anxieties they

have, or should they shut up in order to be strong? I very strongly

feel that there should be talking about their anxieties, and showing a

man like this in a setting that tends to be more female, the home,

the labour ward, the nursery, traditionally, and showing a man in

these settings going through his own crisis and his response to that

seems to me to be a very useful contribution. The film opens next

month. Thank you very much indeed. A quick look at the papers. The

Daily Mail leading an Brits catching Zika in Florida. The Telly della

Graaf, Boris plots to block Heathrow expansion. -- the Daily Telegraph.

Also an item there, Trump campaign group in candle over illicit

donations. And the guardian leading as we did on Calle, the council is

resisting pressure to take children. And women are getting as much as men

according to a study. We leave you with '80s

pop star Pete Burns, whose death was announced today

at the age of 57. Here he is at the height

of his fame, owning Top of the Pops with his band,

Dead or Alive. # I set my sights on you

(and no one else will do) # And I, I've got to

have my way now, baby # Right round like a record,

baby # Right round like a record,

baby