25/10/2016 Newsnight


25/10/2016

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis.


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Transcript


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How well do you, how well do we understand modern Russia

:00:00.:00:00.

and its ambitions in Syria and beyond?

:00:00.:00:08.

In view of the ruthless and brutal behaviour of the Russians

:00:09.:00:13.

it cannot be business as usual with Russia.

:00:14.:00:20.

The relationship that Britain has with Russia,

:00:21.:00:25.

the European Union has with Russia, the relationship I hope

:00:26.:00:27.

that Australia has with Russia, will be very different.

:00:28.:00:31.

He'd rather believe Vladimir Putin

:00:32.:00:32.

than the military and civilian intelligence

:00:33.:00:34.

professionals who are sworn to protect us.

:00:35.:00:36.

She doesn't like Putin because Putin has outsmarted her

:00:37.:00:39.

Russia and the regime owe the world more than an explanation

:00:40.:00:47.

about why they keep hitting hospitals and medical

:00:48.:00:49.

And we will never recognise Russia's illegal occupation of Crimea,

:00:50.:01:04.

That's the view of Russia most of us recognise.

:01:05.:01:17.

Tonight, we take a close look at how the world looks to the Russians,

:01:18.:01:20.

how they view themselves, Syria and us.

:01:21.:01:23.

It is the story of a new cold-ish war.

:01:24.:01:29.

Also tonight, we will be looking at...

:01:30.:01:31.

The politics of Heathrow expansion, an extraordinary argument

:01:32.:01:32.

and a strange Danish practice involving cinnamon buns

:01:33.:01:37.

But as I say, we start with Russia and the west.

:01:38.:01:42.

You can't avoid it - from geopolitical headaches

:01:43.:01:44.

to the hacking of American politicians,

:01:45.:01:50.

Russian warships in the channel, arguments over a British bank

:01:51.:01:52.

trying to close the account of the state TV network RT,

:01:53.:01:55.

In all these disputatious areas, you can criticise behaviour

:01:56.:02:00.

of the west or in the west, and we do.

:02:01.:02:03.

But many have a deeper instinctive distrust of Russia

:02:04.:02:06.

Which makes it all the more important for us to understand

:02:07.:02:11.

what they are being told and what they think.

:02:12.:02:14.

And worryingly, the rhetoric there is heating up.

:02:15.:02:17.

For example, the Russians have released images

:02:18.:02:19.

of the new Satan 2 nuclear missile, said to be powerful enough

:02:20.:02:25.

Gabriel Gatehouse is in Moscow for us,

:02:26.:02:28.

trying to get into the Russian psyche.

:02:29.:02:31.

Good evening. What is remarkable being here is how people view

:02:32.:02:45.

diametrically differently all of the topics that you heard those

:02:46.:02:49.

politicians remarking upon in your introduction. Take, for example, the

:02:50.:02:54.

very negative treatment, as they see it here, of Russia in the US

:02:55.:02:56.

presidential election. Because the allegations of hacking

:02:57.:03:03.

don't get much coverage here, this is genuinely seen as Russophobia

:03:04.:03:11.

both by the people and by the Kremlin and they see that as both

:03:12.:03:14.

worrying and encouraging, worrying because they don't want to be

:03:15.:03:17.

isolated, but encouraging because they feel the world is taking notice

:03:18.:03:21.

of Russia. So what you see here is people being able to take two

:03:22.:03:25.

diametrically opposed views of one situation and accommodate them at

:03:26.:03:29.

the same time. And as you said, the anti-Western rhetoric on television

:03:30.:03:33.

in particular is heating up at the same time, and that is certainly

:03:34.:03:34.

having an effect. Something in the way it

:03:35.:03:39.

projects itself abroad. That is the question

:03:40.:03:47.

of who rules the world. And in the way the people view

:03:48.:03:55.

themselves. Russian civilisation is a culture

:03:56.:04:00.

of heroes and warriors. There is a battle going on here

:04:01.:04:05.

for the soul of this country. We have our special Russian truth

:04:06.:04:09.

that you need to accept. And for the very concept

:04:10.:04:14.

of what is real and what is not. since I first started coming

:04:15.:04:25.

here in the mid-1990s, when the streets were crammed

:04:26.:04:31.

with battered Ladas and for most people, foreign travel

:04:32.:04:34.

was a distant dream. Even as life has become more

:04:35.:04:37.

westernised, so more and more people seem to be turning their backs

:04:38.:04:43.

on the West. Or at least, their government

:04:44.:04:47.

is trying hard to push them Recently, state-controlled TV

:04:48.:04:49.

beamed these pictures into the nation's living

:04:50.:05:02.

rooms, in preparation for

:05:03.:05:08.

possible nuclear war. "Locate your nearest bomb shelter

:05:09.:05:14.

now", the presenter says, The spectre of war casts

:05:15.:05:17.

a long shadow over Russia. nearly half a million people lie

:05:18.:05:26.

buried in this cemetery alone. who saved the Soviet

:05:27.:05:32.

Union from destruction. Valentina Nikolaevna is too young

:05:33.:05:53.

to remember the war herself, but she remembers only too well how

:05:54.:05:56.

the Soviet Union collapsed, And she knows who she

:05:57.:06:00.

thinks is to blame. The war in Syria, the conflict

:06:01.:06:25.

in Ukraine, these are seen

:06:26.:06:27.

very differently here. State-controlled TV feeds viewers

:06:28.:06:29.

a diet of war and crisis abroad, in which the West

:06:30.:06:35.

is cast as the aggressor. Now the news bulletins

:06:36.:06:41.

are talking about the prospect something unthinkable

:06:42.:06:43.

since the end of the Cold War. In St Petersburg, officials have

:06:44.:06:49.

drawn up plans for bread rationing. Few are taking this seriously.

:06:50.:06:54.

No one is stockpiling food. But the siege of Leningrad is seared

:06:55.:06:58.

into the folk memory of this city. Svetlana Bogdanova keeps a memento

:06:59.:07:07.

of those dark, hungry days 125 grams of bread, a day's ration,

:07:08.:07:11.

saved by her grandfather in 1942. Talk of rationing today

:07:12.:07:23.

is nonsense, Svetlana says. But still, it has a psychological

:07:24.:07:26.

effect. For centuries, Russia has wrestled

:07:27.:07:55.

with an existential question - The collapse of the Soviet Union

:07:56.:07:58.

was not, it turned out, Underneath the trappings

:07:59.:08:04.

of a capitalist economy, Western-style liberalism has

:08:05.:08:10.

struggled to take root. In Russia, things are not always

:08:11.:08:16.

entirely what they seem. Students go paintballing

:08:17.:08:23.

at the weekend. It's organised by an opposition

:08:24.:08:26.

party. But the party in question is in fact

:08:27.:08:29.

loyal to the Kremlin. And paintballing is part of a wider

:08:30.:08:35.

government-approved programme We have a wide range

:08:36.:08:39.

of military activities. Some of them involve knife

:08:40.:08:50.

combat, knife throwing. where we go to shooting ranges

:08:51.:08:55.

sometimes or military encampments When you watch Russian television,

:08:56.:09:05.

it seems like people are preparing for some kind of confrontation

:09:06.:09:10.

with the West. We are preparing for

:09:11.:09:11.

confrontation with the West. But more, this confrontation happens

:09:12.:09:19.

on a cultural and information level. But this warrior spirit

:09:20.:09:24.

is one of the principles Russian civilisation is a culture

:09:25.:09:26.

of heroes and warriors, so it's a culture of warfare

:09:27.:09:29.

whether we like it or not. 20 years ago, when I first came

:09:30.:09:32.

to Russia, it seemed like people You're absolutely right,

:09:33.:09:35.

and it didn't do us any good. And in our great country,

:09:36.:09:39.

the result is warfare and open conflict because we have started

:09:40.:09:46.

to love different people. Do you think it's really possible,

:09:47.:09:49.

I mean, you're training is it possible that that could ever

:09:50.:09:51.

be used in a conflict with the West? Now there are a lot of conflicts

:09:52.:09:58.

with Ukraine and other people. Me and my comrades and unfortunately

:09:59.:10:06.

even some others have taken part. It's a conflict between

:10:07.:10:09.

Russia and the West. The Ukrainian army has western

:10:10.:10:14.

equipment, Western weapons None of the students we spoke

:10:15.:10:16.

to said they were volunteering They're in their late teens,

:10:17.:10:27.

early twenties, all of them born in the post-Soviet period,

:10:28.:10:34.

and they seemed unconvinced by the talk on TV of

:10:35.:10:38.

a looming conflict. Almost as soon as he came to power,

:10:39.:11:28.

Putin began taking control What you see on television today

:11:29.:11:31.

is either sanctioned Truth has become subordinate

:11:32.:11:39.

to political expediency. To support this difficult balancing

:11:40.:11:53.

act, an entire philosophical

:11:54.:11:56.

framework has been constructed. One of its chief architects

:11:57.:12:00.

is Aleksandr Dugin, thinker and ideologue who is under US

:12:01.:12:04.

sanctions for his alleged involvement in Russia's

:12:05.:12:07.

annexation of Crimea The truth is the question of belief,

:12:08.:12:08.

and post-modernity shows that every so-called truth

:12:09.:12:19.

is a matter of believing. and that is the only way

:12:20.:12:23.

to define the truth. that you need to accept as something

:12:24.:12:34.

that is maybe not your truth. that doesn't mean that

:12:35.:12:46.

truth doesn't exist. Dugin's philosophy is

:12:47.:12:54.

known as Eurasianism. It holds that Orthodox Russia

:12:55.:12:57.

is neither East nor West, but a separate and unique

:12:58.:13:02.

civilisation, a civilisation engaged in a battle for its rightful

:13:03.:13:05.

place among world powers. His work has become increasingly

:13:06.:13:10.

influential among Russia's If the United States doesn't

:13:11.:13:12.

want to start a war, you should recognise,

:13:13.:13:20.

the United States should recognise openly for all humanity,

:13:21.:13:23.

all mankind, that the United States The situation in Syria,

:13:24.:13:32.

Ukraine and anywhere else, So Ukraine and Syria

:13:33.:13:41.

are all about proving to America And Russia says no,

:13:42.:13:46.

you are not boss. and if behind us there is nuclear

:13:47.:13:51.

weapons and an iron will to defend, for example, the little case

:13:52.:14:08.

of Assad, defend Assad, it is principally not because we

:14:09.:14:15.

have so much interest there. That is the question

:14:16.:14:18.

of who rules the world. Dugin's bellicose doublethink is not

:14:19.:14:20.

aimed solely at the West. There is a message for internal

:14:21.:14:35.

consumption too, and it is this. There's no such thing

:14:36.:14:39.

as liberal values. There's no such thing

:14:40.:14:48.

as universal liberal values. There is no inherent contradiction

:14:49.:14:50.

in a democracy In the shadow of the walls

:14:51.:14:52.

of the Kremlin, Russia's dwindling band of activists keep alive

:14:53.:14:57.

the memory of Boris Nemtsov, the opposition politician

:14:58.:15:00.

who was gunned down Most Russians don't really

:15:01.:15:02.

believe that nuclear war Perhaps their leaders

:15:03.:15:39.

don't believe it either. But then they probably don't really

:15:40.:15:43.

believe But the more the lie is repeated,

:15:44.:15:45.

the more it risks morphing To unpick some of these issues, I've

:15:46.:15:55.

been speaking to two Russians. Let me start by asking you,

:15:56.:16:22.

do people generally believe On the one hand, people absolutely

:16:23.:16:24.

believe what they are told. They believe that state channels

:16:25.:16:31.

transmit the official position, On the other hand, they are not

:16:32.:16:41.

looking for news as such. They are looking to decipher

:16:42.:16:45.

the system of signals. Who is on air today

:16:46.:16:48.

and who was yesterday? What set of terms is being used

:16:49.:16:50.

this season as opposed

:16:51.:16:52.

to the previous season? What is the intonation,

:16:53.:16:53.

what is the choice of words? All this is important to understand

:16:54.:16:56.

because it prophesies when it comes to events like events

:16:57.:16:58.

in Syria and Ukraine, from the way we see them

:16:59.:17:08.

in the West, don't they? The Ukrainian war was considered

:17:09.:17:21.

as a defensive war here, not just by the Kremlin,

:17:22.:17:23.

but by the population as well. Whatever happens in Ukraine

:17:24.:17:26.

is considered to be an intrusion So something that for outsiders

:17:27.:17:28.

is like an aggression, and by international

:17:29.:17:36.

standards it is, for

:17:37.:17:44.

the Russians here is a defence. The external audience

:17:45.:17:46.

is obviously the West, and the West is certainly sitting

:17:47.:17:53.

up and taking notice. Is this the effect that the Kremlin

:17:54.:17:57.

wants to have? The external audience is not only

:17:58.:18:02.

the West, And that is a more important

:18:03.:18:05.

audience outside Russia than the West, because the West

:18:06.:18:10.

is considered to be lost You never will please

:18:11.:18:13.

them, so stop trying. What is important is to show

:18:14.:18:26.

that we are powerful to

:18:27.:18:32.

the rising, huge developing world, consisting of China,

:18:33.:18:39.

India, Latin America, It seems clear that the Kremlin no

:18:40.:18:40.

longer looks to the west or Western liberalism

:18:41.:18:48.

is an inspiration. But is it also dead

:18:49.:18:49.

in Russian society? those that would name

:18:50.:18:56.

themselves liberals, those that would name

:18:57.:19:03.

themselves Orthodox Christian, this low level of trust, this low

:19:04.:19:08.

level of belief in the future, this attempt to rather keep

:19:09.:19:18.

by the devil you know than trust

:19:19.:19:20.

to the devil you do not know. You mentioned the projection

:19:21.:19:22.

of strength abroad. There is a projection of strength

:19:23.:19:25.

abroad, but in their core

:19:26.:19:27.

they are very uncertain. because there are so many

:19:28.:19:29.

issues resolved. The first one is the

:19:30.:19:35.

transition of power. There is no system

:19:36.:19:42.

beyond one person. It's more personal

:19:43.:19:49.

than in Soviet times. based on the experience

:19:50.:19:52.

of the 20th century, that by changing something,

:19:53.:19:59.

you destroy the country, because they tried it several times

:20:00.:20:01.

and every time they tried to move the system from this quasi-monarchy,

:20:02.:20:06.

they lost the country. So the good idea seems to be

:20:07.:20:11.

to try to make the time stop somehow and to meanwhile distract attention

:20:12.:20:15.

by following adventures in places. This is Russian conservatism,

:20:16.:20:19.

it is not the natural conservatism of a smoothly moving society

:20:20.:20:22.

like the British one. It's not a real love for the past,

:20:23.:20:27.

it's a fear of the future, exactly. It was a long time coming,

:20:28.:20:37.

but by the time it came today it seemed like we knew it already:

:20:38.:20:53.

Heathrow is the Government's choice Our political editor Nick Watt

:20:54.:20:56.

is with me to chew it over briefly. A momentous day. Theresa May is very

:20:57.:21:07.

proud and has taken just under four months what her eight predecessors

:21:08.:21:11.

failed to do in 40 years, but beyond that we did learn two interesting

:21:12.:21:14.

things. Some eyebrows were raised when Chris Grayling declined in his

:21:15.:21:19.

opening statement to repeat a very clear statement on his department

:21:20.:21:25.

website which is the private sector would pave airport expansion. He did

:21:26.:21:30.

say to Ireland MP that it would, and in his opening statement he was

:21:31.:21:37.

cautious, and I understand there are some confusion is over what is

:21:38.:21:42.

called surface costs, the better road and public transport structures

:21:43.:21:52.

into Heathrow. Where they benefit passengers, that is the Heathrow to

:21:53.:21:55.

pay, but where they benefit the wider economy, should that be for

:21:56.:21:58.

the Government to pay? But the Government is going out of its way

:21:59.:22:02.

to make sure it would be very difficult to mount a judicial case

:22:03.:22:05.

against them. They have given themselves until the end of February

:22:06.:22:10.

2018 to have the parliamentary vote which would formally allow this to

:22:11.:22:13.

happen. I understand that David Cameron's government was working on

:22:14.:22:19.

the basis of giving themselves six months, so they are following proper

:22:20.:22:23.

procedure. Thank you very much indeed.

:22:24.:22:27.

When it comes to the interlinked crises so absorbing us

:22:28.:22:29.

Isis, Iraq and Europe's migrant problem,

:22:30.:22:32.

Turkey is a country that looms large.

:22:33.:22:33.

But it is weirdly capable of simultaneously sometimes

:22:34.:22:35.

being seen as a solution, and almost as often

:22:36.:22:37.

it was the country that let migrants sail in precarious crafts to Greece,

:22:38.:22:44.

but it was also the country to then stop them,

:22:45.:22:46.

and indeed one that bears more than its fair share of the task

:22:47.:22:49.

In the fight against Isis, it has been on the right side,

:22:50.:22:54.

but it's also frankly complicated the situation

:22:55.:22:55.

with its hatred of the Kurdish fighters who seem

:22:56.:22:57.

Right now, concern over the problematic aspects of Turkey

:22:58.:23:03.

are being magnified by President Erdogan's brand

:23:04.:23:04.

perhaps comparable to that of President Putin.

:23:05.:23:13.

Erdogan has recently been suggesting that Turkey is too small,

:23:14.:23:18.

that the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne that sets its borders

:23:19.:23:20.

And just today, the Turkish foreign minister

:23:21.:23:23.

ratcheted up tensions even further.

:23:24.:24:14.

formerly a minister in Mr Erdogan's government,

:24:15.:24:35.

for sure. We are fighting against Isil in that region, in Syria, in

:24:36.:24:43.

Iraq. I will come to that, but wider is President Erdogan keep talking

:24:44.:24:51.

about the Treaty of Lausanne? You accept the Treaty of 1923? It is the

:24:52.:25:01.

Treaty of Lausanne in 1923 that was the condition, the historical

:25:02.:25:05.

condition of that time. That is what President Erdogan referred to. In

:25:06.:25:24.

the case of Mosul and Kirkuk. Then later the developments in the region

:25:25.:25:31.

went differently, but we are happy with our borders. So it is just

:25:32.:25:36.

historic talk, it is not crazy talk about... Turkish TV has been showing

:25:37.:25:41.

maps showing Turkey as a bigger country. It is the history. When

:25:42.:25:46.

they are coming to that issue, you can talk to other countries, for

:25:47.:25:53.

example Great Britain. Yes, we had a lot of countries. It is not an issue

:25:54.:26:00.

of history, it is the issue of today that we face the terrorism, we face

:26:01.:26:07.

the Isil, we face the PKK terrorism, the fatwa organisation. And we are

:26:08.:26:23.

trying to fight against a military coup, the bloodiest one that they

:26:24.:26:29.

face, and today, the Turkish army is ready to be a part of a coalition in

:26:30.:26:35.

fighting against Isil. This is very important, because of course Iraq

:26:36.:26:39.

has asked you to remove your troops from by Chic airbase. They think you

:26:40.:26:48.

are making it complicated in the fights for Mosul. Why don't you

:26:49.:26:53.

remove them? Simply because Turkey has come in in support of Turkish

:26:54.:27:00.

regional authority and government to train the Peshmerga forces who are

:27:01.:27:08.

fighting against Isil. Because with that training, 3500 people,

:27:09.:27:19.

Peshmergas, who are actively taking place in fighting against Isil, and

:27:20.:27:27.

that is why we are here. The second reason is that it is an issue of our

:27:28.:27:34.

security. What about Iraq's sovereignty? They

:27:35.:27:40.

want you to remove them and you are saying no. But there are 60

:27:41.:27:44.

countries, different countries, forces, there, and we speak and it

:27:45.:27:56.

was the admission of the government and of course the regional

:27:57.:28:01.

government of the Kurdish authorities that we are with their

:28:02.:28:10.

permission, and there invitation... But not the Iraqis. President

:28:11.:28:20.

Erdogan has spoken of helping our Sunni brothers. It is a very tribal

:28:21.:28:27.

way to look at it. If you look at the case of Mosul, where we have 1.8

:28:28.:28:38.

million people, mostly they are Sunnis. But it is not your job...

:28:39.:28:44.

But it is our border, and to remember who faces migration from

:28:45.:28:54.

Syria. 3.5 million of minors from Syria are hosted by Turkey. It is

:28:55.:28:58.

not by our allies and other countries in Europe. I understand

:28:59.:29:05.

that. I mentioned that. So we do not want to face another 1 million

:29:06.:29:12.

migrants from Mosul. That is the issue. I understand. We understand

:29:13.:29:21.

your argument. We have another case of Tel Sun, which has 400,000

:29:22.:29:39.

people, 200,000 of which are Sunni. Can you see with all the talk about

:29:40.:29:44.

the Lausanne Treaty, with refusing to take your troops out of Iraq even

:29:45.:29:48.

though they ask you to, and with 70,000 people arrested, people say

:29:49.:29:54.

this country has now got a dictator not a president. It is an absolute

:29:55.:30:01.

nonsense, because everything is done under the observation of the rule of

:30:02.:30:09.

law, and we will observe the rule of law from now on as well. We face the

:30:10.:30:20.

bloodiest military coup, 241 people innocent. I would love to talk to

:30:21.:30:26.

you much more about this, but I'm afraid we are out of time. We have

:30:27.:30:31.

to clean up... We could talk about this a lot more. Thank you very much

:30:32.:30:34.

indeed. Thank you. As the nights draw in,

:30:35.:30:37.

our thoughts turn to Denmark, the small, light-starved country

:30:38.:30:39.

which inexplicably tops the polls Some put that down to the exhaustive

:30:40.:30:41.

welfare system that Danish people seem content to pay

:30:42.:30:45.

for in their taxes. Others think it's just

:30:46.:30:47.

because they're too conformist But perhaps the answer

:30:48.:30:49.

lies in a national gift for a cosy togetherness

:30:50.:30:54.

that is known as "hygge". I confess that, other

:30:55.:30:57.

than being told that it involves cinnamon buns and candles, I have no

:30:58.:31:02.

idea whatsoever what hygge is. But that is why we employ

:31:03.:31:06.

Stephen Smith, to explain # Girl, your

:31:07.:31:09.

sweetness is my weakness... "Hooga", "hewga", let's call

:31:10.:31:27.

the whole thing off. However you pronounce

:31:28.:31:44.

it, the H word is part and

:31:45.:31:46.

it's coming to a sofa near you. Hygge is nothing if not homely,

:31:47.:31:50.

so we stayed at home. at this handsome Scandi

:31:51.:32:00.

furnishing store, You should have your

:32:01.:32:08.

own cartoon series. My dad is actually called

:32:09.:32:17.

Wolf Viking, and I have a

:32:18.:32:21.

nephew called Max Viking. It's a good job you

:32:22.:32:23.

can grow facial hair The ingredients are togetherness,

:32:24.:32:26.

good lighting, relaxation, indulgence, savouring simple

:32:27.:32:38.

pleasures, gratefulness. Can it catch on here,

:32:39.:32:41.

do you think? I think in many ways,

:32:42.:32:43.

it already has. and I also see a lot of Brits

:32:44.:32:46.

embracing it, so I like to think We found these happy hygges

:32:47.:32:53.

at an event in London. So what has this fad

:32:54.:33:15.

got going for it? British people are really

:33:16.:33:18.

good at hygge anyway. Down the pub, open

:33:19.:33:21.

fire, glass of wine. I think it's because we're

:33:22.:33:28.

all longing to take that kind of

:33:29.:33:30.

break, take time out. I guess hygge is also about healthy

:33:31.:33:32.

hedonism, the idea that you can

:33:33.:33:34.

have a drink or a whiskey. People are tired of these

:33:35.:33:36.

extreme diets and fads. Everyone is so guilty

:33:37.:33:39.

about what they eat and drink. Meik Wiking also runs

:33:40.:33:42.

the Danish Institute of Happiness, a job he gave himself

:33:43.:33:59.

when he set the thing up. All the Nordic countries do well,

:34:00.:34:02.

Sweden, Norway, Finland, Iceland. They are always at the top

:34:03.:34:05.

of the World Happiness Report. But we couldn't explain why

:34:06.:34:08.

Denmark does well. We think that the hygge culture,

:34:09.:34:10.

the focus on pleasure and comfort on a daily basis,

:34:11.:34:16.

could be part of that explanation. But doesn't Meik ever want to stop

:34:17.:34:21.

being so darn cosy You know what I mean, though,

:34:22.:34:23.

don't you? We have nice lighting

:34:24.:34:27.

and cinnamon buns. I just thought you might get

:34:28.:34:34.

fed up of it and want something a bit more,

:34:35.:34:41.

you know, raw and visceral. Even bleak Scandi dramas with a high

:34:42.:34:46.

body count It was time for me to give the Danes

:34:47.:34:57.

a version of the famous Orson Welles speech

:34:58.:35:03.

from The Third Man. The Brits have had civil war,

:35:04.:35:13.

we've had these two upheavals here, but we've

:35:14.:35:16.

produced Shakespeare, The Danes have this lovely,

:35:17.:35:18.

chilled out lifestyle and you've

:35:19.:35:21.

produced the cinnamon bun. But we also see that happier

:35:22.:35:24.

employees are on average more productive, less

:35:25.:35:45.

sick, more creative. This Christmas, yes,

:35:46.:35:48.

I said Christmas - I guess we are a bit clearer about

:35:49.:35:53.

what it is. On the surface, it seems to be

:35:54.:36:06.

an argument about theatre lighting, but it's also being portrayed

:36:07.:36:09.

as another battle in She hasn't even been artistic

:36:10.:36:12.

director of the Globe Theatre in London for a year,

:36:13.:36:16.

and they've already There were grumbles at her desire

:36:17.:36:18.

to use fancy lighting in the replica Elizabethan theatre -

:36:19.:36:21.

not the done thing Others say it's angry white men

:36:22.:36:24.

with no imagination, forcing out a creative

:36:25.:36:27.

and progressive woman. Well, this is Emma Rice's

:36:28.:36:31.

eyebrow-raising style. I'm Emma Rice, and in April,

:36:32.:36:36.

I become the third artistic director It's been an incredible few months,

:36:37.:36:41.

and I'm very excited Joining me now are Tanika Gupta,

:36:42.:36:45.

who is a playwright and member of the creative cabinet

:36:46.:37:19.

at the Globe Theatre, and Sohrab Ahmari,

:37:20.:37:21.

a Wall Street Journal Tanika Gupta, what do you know about

:37:22.:37:34.

what has gone wrong here? As far as I am aware, it is not about lighting

:37:35.:37:39.

and sound. It is about artistic integrity. Ultimately, the board did

:37:40.:37:44.

not support Emma, which is completely surprising because they

:37:45.:37:50.

applauded her only six months ago. This is what everyone is so

:37:51.:37:55.

distraught and disappointed about. So she is a loss to the Globe?

:37:56.:38:01.

Absolutely. She's the most extraordinary director,

:38:02.:38:03.

one-of-a-kind, and she is hugely respected both by artists and other

:38:04.:38:04.

directors. And was she pushed because she was a

:38:05.:38:14.

woman? Some say she would never have been attacked if she was a man. Was

:38:15.:38:19.

she radical, or was it the lighting? It was old versus new, young versus

:38:20.:38:26.

old, and it was extremely disappointing. A lot of women

:38:27.:38:29.

artists are furious and are saying this was the pushing out of an

:38:30.:38:33.

extraordinary woman which should not have happened. Someone said this the

:38:34.:38:39.

Brexit of the theatre world. The two, you are not a fan. Tell me why

:38:40.:38:43.

you didn't think Emma Rice was the right person for the Globe? The

:38:44.:38:48.

lighting was part of it. This was an institution that was built to

:38:49.:38:52.

present Shakespeare as his audience would have appreciated him. So the

:38:53.:38:55.

natural lighting was part of the charm. But the deeper point is that

:38:56.:39:00.

what is old is not necessarily bad and what is new is not necessarily

:39:01.:39:04.

good. So this assumption that old is bad and progressive is good falls

:39:05.:39:09.

apart when you see her productions, which were the productions of

:39:10.:39:11.

someone who clearly didn't like Shakespeare. I am not speculating,

:39:12.:39:18.

she has said, when I read Shakespeare, I get sleepy and want

:39:19.:39:23.

to put on the archers. We saw productions suggesting that the

:39:24.:39:27.

ferry potion that alters people's desires in her production of A

:39:28.:39:31.

Midsummer Night's Dream was a date rape drug, or all this modern slang.

:39:32.:39:36.

So when Lysander says to her mere, get away from me, she changed it to,

:39:37.:39:46.

get away from me, you argue BLEEP. Actually, I changed that! This is

:39:47.:39:52.

the rep for Shakespeare theatre where you are meant to see it as

:39:53.:39:57.

they saw it. No, it is theatre. Data should be ever-changing and you

:39:58.:40:01.

should allow people in the arts to be able to interpret it as they

:40:02.:40:08.

wish. It was 99% Shakespeare. There were tiny cuts. What is the point of

:40:09.:40:15.

going to the Globe? The point is that they appointed her. They wanted

:40:16.:40:21.

her. They were excited about her. What has happened is that the Globe

:40:22.:40:26.

have not backed her. A people were tweeting rudely about the decision

:40:27.:40:31.

and saying, if you want authenticity, then scatter cholera

:40:32.:40:34.

over the seats. Because it is not authentic Shakespeare, it has planes

:40:35.:40:40.

flying overhead. It is nothing like Shakespeare's day. But it comes down

:40:41.:40:45.

to having a certain degree of trust in the text. With what Ms Rice was

:40:46.:40:49.

trying to do with her team, there was anxiety about the fact that

:40:50.:40:51.

Shakespeare is not relevant and people couldn't relate to it unless

:40:52.:40:55.

we had a David Bowie song, which she did in the middle of one, and a

:40:56.:41:01.

Beyonce dance number. But if you actually go to the texts, you can

:41:02.:41:07.

see the reason it is at the heart of the western canon is because it

:41:08.:41:11.

speaks across time and across identity and across all of this

:41:12.:41:14.

stuff, so you don't need to impose relevant on it. You don't need to

:41:15.:41:18.

rescue Shakespeare from irrelevance. Thank you both very much.

:41:19.:41:28.

I will be here tomorrow. Until then, good night.

:41:29.:41:31.

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