21/11/2016 Newsnight


21/11/2016

Who is Francois Fillon? The latest on the Japanese tsunami. Trump's conflicts of interest. The latest on the child abuse inquiry. Is Tony Blair to return? And Joseph Gordon-Levitt.


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Transcript


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Tonight, 2016 strikes again - we've torn up the political script -

:00:00.:00:07.

as a late entry - Francois Fillon - rewrites politics in France.

:00:08.:00:13.

Who is this former President - and how would he fare

:00:14.:00:17.

Can his anglophile views help us do better on Brexit.

:00:18.:00:25.

We ask one of France's most distinguished broadcasters

:00:26.:00:27.

Can the independent inquiry into child abuse regain

:00:28.:00:34.

the faith of victims - or is it beyond repair?

:00:35.:00:40.

We have got to the stage now, down the line where it has crumbled.

:00:41.:00:47.

There is no other word for it, it has crumbled.

:00:48.:00:48.

Business, or pleasure - or politics - its so hard

:00:49.:00:51.

Donald Trump is welcome figures from around the world -

:00:52.:00:54.

but is he starting to merge the interests of the

:00:55.:00:56.

We'll talk to George W Bush's ethics adviser.

:00:57.:01:04.

And, why was actor Joseph Gordon-Levitt warned off playing

:01:05.:01:09.

Just like what you're saying, he is a controversial figure,

:01:10.:01:14.

You have to think about the commercial

:01:15.:01:17.

I don't think those people are wrong.

:01:18.:01:33.

The man they used to call the Bling Bling President is bowing

:01:34.:01:37.

out of French politics with barely a whimper.

:01:38.:01:39.

Nicholas Sarkozy, former French President, came

:01:40.:01:41.

a distant third in a race he was expected to win.

:01:42.:01:45.

But this is 2016, don't forget, the year where we take any political

:01:46.:01:50.

So it is Francois Fillon, another former President,

:01:51.:01:55.

a man who likes driving racing cars, who has become the firm favourite

:01:56.:01:58.

to lead the centre right into the Spring election

:01:59.:02:00.

for an expected showdown with the National Front's Marine Le Pen.

:02:01.:02:03.

Francois Fillon, an economic liberal and social conservative,

:02:04.:02:05.

He's said he will cut public sector jobs and rein in

:02:06.:02:11.

But his success last night may owe as much to tactical voting

:02:12.:02:17.

and a loathing of Sarkozy as anything he has done yet.

:02:18.:02:19.

So is it too early to ask what Fillon would mean for France

:02:20.:02:22.

and indeed for the UK as we head towards Brexit?

:02:23.:02:25.

Here's Our diplomatic editor Mark Urban.

:02:26.:02:35.

Francois Fillon had his revenge and it must have been sweet. The man in

:02:36.:02:45.

the driving seat of politics is an amateur motor driver. He fell victim

:02:46.:02:53.

to snide briefings by his boss and last night, he knocked Nicolas

:02:54.:02:57.

Sarkozy out of the primary race the leadership of the Centre right. And

:02:58.:03:06.

he pulled ahead of the other candidate by 12 points. I think the

:03:07.:03:11.

people who voted for Francois Fillon during the primary yesterday, did it

:03:12.:03:18.

specially to kick out Nicolas Sarkozy, which is done. Now that we

:03:19.:03:25.

have kicked out Nicolas Sarkozy from the race, I think the people will

:03:26.:03:31.

check more carefully, the programme. The winner will face off against

:03:32.:03:35.

Marine Le Pen and after Donald Trump's victory, she seems to be the

:03:36.:03:41.

one to beat. She is more Eurosceptic, but Fillon's politics

:03:42.:03:50.

appeal to many on the right. Religion is central to Francois

:03:51.:03:54.

Fillon on's worldview. A Catholic, he has championed the cause of

:03:55.:03:58.

oppressed Christians in the Middle East and it is central to his views

:03:59.:04:02.

on questions from abortion to gay rights, or the place of Islam in

:04:03.:04:10.

French society. TRANSLATION: This means a policy will have to be put

:04:11.:04:16.

in place, a policy I call administrative control to steer

:04:17.:04:19.

Muslim communities progressively towards acceptance of the rules

:04:20.:04:25.

which are those of our country. The Fillon platform, with its emphasis

:04:26.:04:29.

on bringing French Muslims into line, such as delicate feelings

:04:30.:04:34.

given the recent terror attacks. But his supporters argue, that is no

:04:35.:04:40.

argument. The French are fed up by this kind of drifting away of

:04:41.:04:48.

cultural differences. I think this is a major danger. Fillon is well

:04:49.:04:53.

aware of this danger and this is why also he wants to make it clear. It

:04:54.:05:02.

is through that prism a global war against extreme Islam that Fillon

:05:03.:05:05.

favours reconciliation with President Putin. TRANSLATION: There

:05:06.:05:14.

has to be a coalition with the Russians. I find it a bit rich that

:05:15.:05:20.

taking a counter-productive attitude we have over Russia, we will

:05:21.:05:26.

reconcile over our heads. It is time to change that policy. Reform of the

:05:27.:05:35.

French economy forms the other main plank of Fillon's platform. There is

:05:36.:05:41.

talk of drastic slimming down of the public sector. Given how contentious

:05:42.:05:45.

the reform of working hours and retirement age has already proven in

:05:46.:05:49.

France, this won't be an easy sell. It is very close to Margaret

:05:50.:06:00.

Thatcher programme. The people surfing on this wave will not be any

:06:01.:06:05.

better off with a centrist party. We may have some division and the

:06:06.:06:14.

centrist party will not support Francois Fillon because of this

:06:15.:06:17.

Christian, Margaret Thatcher programme. It is way too white ring.

:06:18.:06:25.

His driving passion has already got him a guest appearance of trans-'s

:06:26.:06:30.

version of top gay. If it puts him into pole position to challenge

:06:31.:06:35.

Marine Le Pen, French voters might have a choice between right and far

:06:36.:06:37.

right. Joining me now from Paris

:06:38.:06:38.

is the journalist Christine Ockrent. We had a little bit about his

:06:39.:06:47.

policies, perhaps his ideologies, but perhaps you can give us a

:06:48.:06:53.

flavour of the man himself, and Anglophile, a Welsh arrive, how

:06:54.:06:59.

would you characterise him? Francois Fillon is a calm guy. He was Nicolas

:07:00.:07:06.

Sarkozy's Prime Minister for five years. But indeed, he has been a

:07:07.:07:14.

constant, low key figure in French conservative politics for ages. He

:07:15.:07:20.

has been an MP since he was 24. So he's very much the political

:07:21.:07:27.

establishment, but I think at the same time his remarkable performance

:07:28.:07:30.

yesterday has to do with his consistency. And given the extreme

:07:31.:07:38.

weakness of the socialist President Francois Hollande on the one hand,

:07:39.:07:43.

and the fierce hatred that opposed Nicolas Sarkozy for the primary, the

:07:44.:07:50.

first round of the Conservative primary yesterday, I think Francois

:07:51.:07:57.

Fillon impress voters with his very sort of calm, you know, I stick to

:07:58.:08:02.

my programme attitude. It is true that his programme, as it was

:08:03.:08:09.

pointed out earlier on, is a mix of extremely good conservative values,

:08:10.:08:13.

as far as society is concerned. Education, he wants to ban the law

:08:14.:08:21.

allowing same-sex people to adopt children, for instance. But also

:08:22.:08:27.

very liberal, especially by French standards, very liberal thatch Aryan

:08:28.:08:34.

views about the economy. I think that so far, people haven't looked

:08:35.:08:39.

very close at his programme and that will be, actually the meat of the

:08:40.:08:43.

very fierce competition. Throughout this week, opposing... Let me just

:08:44.:08:55.

say, the words you have views, consistency, conservatism, don't

:08:56.:08:59.

point to the same trends we are seen globally, people looking for the

:09:00.:09:03.

risk of the outsider, somebody who surprises them. Is France bucking

:09:04.:09:07.

the trend, or does that come next year? No, I don't agree with that

:09:08.:09:15.

view completely. Fillon is very much an insider. He is not a populist.

:09:16.:09:21.

What has happened in Europe, in the eastern part of Europe primarily,

:09:22.:09:29.

but also with Brexit but also obviously in the US, is a wave of

:09:30.:09:34.

populism. Fillon is the opposite of that. Fillon is an insider. He has

:09:35.:09:41.

been an insider for years. It is much more overreaction from the

:09:42.:09:48.

Conservative, Catholic very sort of serious minded liberal minded

:09:49.:09:54.

people, as far as the economy is concerned, who feel they paying much

:09:55.:10:00.

taxes, they feel business is being contrived. It is very different. The

:10:01.:10:07.

Brits have a dog in this race, how do you think his views towards

:10:08.:10:11.

Brexit will be influenced by his wife, by his love of Britain, as we

:10:12.:10:20.

understand it? Do you think he is a good person for us? First of all,

:10:21.:10:26.

his wife is Welsh, which I understand it, is something quite

:10:27.:10:32.

specific. More seriously, I don't think frankly that Brexit is on

:10:33.:10:35.

Francois Fillon's mind for the time being. He has never been a

:10:36.:10:42.

Europhile, he voted against the Maastricht Treaty many years back.

:10:43.:10:48.

But, he is very concerned about restoring very strong Franco German

:10:49.:10:55.

alliance. That is not necessarily you know, meaning a very easy

:10:56.:11:05.

flexible attitude towards Brexit. Can he beat Marine Le Pen, do you

:11:06.:11:14.

believe? I believe he can. He is actually very bad news for Marine Le

:11:15.:11:18.

Pen. Precisely because he is so conservative on social issues. He is

:11:19.:11:24.

so much concerned in fact with French identity, which has been

:11:25.:11:27.

Marine Le Pen's main argument so far. So I think as far as the French

:11:28.:11:35.

far right is concerned, Francois Phil on, if he becomes the

:11:36.:11:40.

Conservative candidate next Sunday and if he wins the first round of

:11:41.:11:44.

our presidential elections at the end of next April, as Marine Le Pen

:11:45.:11:52.

may well, they will be facing one another. I think he can win over

:11:53.:11:58.

Marine Le Pen. Thank you very much, thanks for joining us.

:11:59.:12:02.

As we came on air, a few moments ago Japan was on high alert

:12:03.:12:06.

following an earthquake off the coast of Fukishima.

:12:07.:12:08.

The preliminary magnitude was 7.3 but there is now a tsunami warning

:12:09.:12:11.

in place for waves of up to ten feet.

:12:12.:12:16.

Fukushima is home to the nucleasr power plant that was destroyed

:12:17.:12:18.

by a tusnami five years ago after a major earthquake then.

:12:19.:12:21.

We can cross live to Rupert Wingfield Hayes in Tokyo

:12:22.:12:24.

What are you hearing? The tsunami alarms are still going off on the

:12:25.:12:40.

coast of Fukishima, about 200 miles north of Tokyo. There was an

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evacuation order called by the national broadcaster after the

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earthquake struck at just after, just before 6am this morning local

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time. Calling for people to leave the coast immediately. Since then,

:12:55.:12:58.

we have seen a couple of waves coming but they have been much

:12:59.:13:01.

smaller than expected. The highest wave to strike the coast so far,

:13:02.:13:06.

just one metre, or around three feet, not the ten feet that was

:13:07.:13:11.

predicted. It looks like this will not be anything on the scale of what

:13:12.:13:16.

happened in 2011 of course. It is a strong earthquake, there is a

:13:17.:13:18.

tsunami warning in place, but it looks to be that the people on the

:13:19.:13:26.

coast are not going to be struck by a large disaster. Is it your sense

:13:27.:13:29.

they are taking the evacuation measures seriously, or are they

:13:30.:13:35.

staying put? It is hard to save from here what ordinary people are doing.

:13:36.:13:39.

I think the response from the government and the national

:13:40.:13:41.

broadcaster to call for people to evacuate immediately, is, if you

:13:42.:13:48.

like, a response to what happened in 2011 when so many people ignore the

:13:49.:13:52.

evacuation orders and ignored the alarms and were caught in their

:13:53.:13:55.

homes and were killed when that massive wave came in. So now,

:13:56.:14:00.

whenever there is an earthquake of this scale offshore, particularly of

:14:01.:14:05.

the north-east coast of Japan, there tends to be a much quicker... We

:14:06.:14:10.

have just lost Rupert, but he was speaking to us from Tokyo.

:14:11.:14:13.

Last week was a torrid one for the independent inquiry

:14:14.:14:16.

Newsnight revealed that yet another barrister

:14:17.:14:18.

And the largest survivors' group involved in the inquiry

:14:19.:14:21.

This week it faces more uncomfortable questions. Tonights

:14:22.:14:41.

another senior lawyer who has ribs and a victims families in two Major

:14:42.:14:45.

enquiries tells us that the child sexual abuse enquiry is crumbling.

:14:46.:14:49.

Chilcot, MacPherson. Bloody Sunday. When major national enquiries to

:14:50.:15:06.

eventually report they can deliver enduring change. But for the

:15:07.:15:10.

independent inquiry into child sexual abuse a triumphant end feels

:15:11.:15:15.

a long way away. Today at Westminster there were more calls

:15:16.:15:18.

for the government to intervene. He has lost seven senior lawyers, three

:15:19.:15:24.

cheers and several survivors groups and it is now impossible to see that

:15:25.:15:27.

this inquiry is still effectively operating. This may be the last

:15:28.:15:31.

chance that the Prime Minister and her Home Secretary had to rescue the

:15:32.:15:36.

inquiry that she set up from collapse. It is essential that this

:15:37.:15:42.

inquiry is an independent inquiry. The terms of reference of this

:15:43.:15:46.

inquiry were shaped with the voices and the opinions of the victims and

:15:47.:15:52.

it is very important that this independence is maintained. It was

:15:53.:15:57.

high summer when the last decamped for a public hearing. That was

:15:58.:16:03.

before all those departures. So what's gone wrong with the inquiry?

:16:04.:16:06.

One theory goes that it has simply been asked to look at far too much.

:16:07.:16:11.

But talk to some of those familiar with its workings and they will say

:16:12.:16:15.

that is not the case, its goals are fairly well defined and in principle

:16:16.:16:18.

it should be able to do its job. Instead they point to some other

:16:19.:16:22.

very well documented issues around some of the key personalities in the

:16:23.:16:26.

inquiry, issues they say have contributed to a sense of

:16:27.:16:30.

dysfunction. We have got to stage now down the line where it has

:16:31.:16:35.

crumbled. There is no other word for it, it has crumbled. What has gone

:16:36.:16:39.

seriously wrong here is a dismal failure to consult with the

:16:40.:16:45.

survivors groups from the beginning. About appointments. And about the

:16:46.:16:50.

substantial of materials which have to be assembled. Secondly the actual

:16:51.:16:57.

appointment of the cheer have been inappropriate, one after another.

:16:58.:17:03.

Just how many mistakes can you make? And some of the groups are saying

:17:04.:17:06.

have these mistakes he made on purpose? The current chair of the

:17:07.:17:12.

inquiry suggest there might be a different agenda at place. Professor

:17:13.:17:17.

Alexis Jay has spoken of forces that do not want dark institutional

:17:18.:17:22.

failings brought into the light. Victims and survivors have to feel

:17:23.:17:26.

they are coming to a safe place and thus far the inquiry is being

:17:27.:17:30.

painted by these outside influences, sometimes aided and abetted by the

:17:31.:17:36.

media, as being an unsafe place. I am in there every week and I don't

:17:37.:17:39.

recognise it as an unsafe place. I see a lot of good people doing a lot

:17:40.:17:43.

of hard work but there have been individuals that have come and gone

:17:44.:17:48.

and clearly it was not the place for them to be. Inquiry will receive

:17:49.:17:54.

more attention this week. The home affairs select committee has written

:17:55.:17:58.

to a number of former lawyers in the inquiry asking for information and

:17:59.:18:01.

their responses are due to be published. But Newsnight understands

:18:02.:18:04.

that the inquiry has told those lawyers not to cooperate in any

:18:05.:18:08.

meaningful way with the committee. Those who accuse the inquiry of the

:18:09.:18:13.

lack of transparency are unlikely to be impressed. However it is

:18:14.:18:16.

understood that one of those lawyers has sent a substantial reply

:18:17.:18:22.

regardless. Newsnight has previously revealed how the inquiry scrapped

:18:23.:18:25.

investigations into Ben Emmerson, its most senior lawyer despite being

:18:26.:18:31.

told of an accusation of sexual assault in a left at the inquiry

:18:32.:18:35.

offices, an accusation he strongly denies. To date the inquiry has

:18:36.:18:39.

brushed off criticism of how it handled that claim by simply saying

:18:40.:18:43.

we have never received an actual complaint. But it is understood this

:18:44.:18:49.

is a subject that the man who once the inquiry second most senior

:18:50.:18:52.

barrister addresses in his letter to MPs. As well as his role with the

:18:53.:18:59.

inquiry he is an expert on how institutions should act when they

:19:00.:19:03.

receive information on potential wrongdoing but received no official

:19:04.:19:07.

complaint. It is understood Mr Davies is highly critical of the

:19:08.:19:13.

handling of the disclosure. For some the inquiry us to have the survivors

:19:14.:19:19.

on board to succeed. We get our assurances that it's going to be all

:19:20.:19:22.

right on the night, well I am afraid I don't accept that, I would want to

:19:23.:19:26.

get in and see how bad it is. It looks extremely bad from the outside

:19:27.:19:33.

and I cannot see how ploughing on without the main actor, this is

:19:34.:19:38.

Hamlet without Hamlet. The defenders of the inquiry say it is doing good

:19:39.:19:41.

work. They point to the truth project for many survivors of abuse

:19:42.:19:46.

have been recording your story. Let the inquiry get on with its job the

:19:47.:19:51.

defenders say it but others have unanswered questions.

:19:52.:19:55.

The oppulent gilded lobby of Trump Towers

:19:56.:19:57.

of besuited visitors over the last few days.

:19:58.:20:00.

Cabinet hopefuls, foreign leaders, business associates.

:20:01.:20:01.

So seamlessly have they processed towards the President-elect,

:20:02.:20:04.

it hasn't been entirely clear who's there for business

:20:05.:20:06.

Donald Trump, we understand now, likes to do things differently.

:20:07.:20:12.

He choses Twitter over press conferences, family council over

:20:13.:20:14.

special advisors, his own hotels over buildings of state.

:20:15.:20:19.

For anyone else, the business of presiding over America

:20:20.:20:21.

would be a call to put all other interests aside.

:20:22.:20:24.

Is the opacity, the blurring of lines just initial confusion

:20:25.:20:31.

with an office maybe he himself never expected to win?

:20:32.:20:33.

I'm joined now by Richard Painter, the White House lawyer who advised

:20:34.:20:41.

President George W Bush on ethics in government.

:20:42.:20:46.

Richard Painter a very nice to speak to you this evening, as an ethics

:20:47.:20:51.

lawyer what do you see at the moment that you don't like? Well, the first

:20:52.:20:58.

thing I have to say is that the corruption potential in a Trump

:20:59.:21:02.

Administration is a serious problem and something we are going to have

:21:03.:21:06.

to sort out in the United States. But our friends across the Atlantic

:21:07.:21:09.

in England and Europe and around the world ought to take comfort in the

:21:10.:21:14.

fact that Donald Trump's personal and business life has absolutely

:21:15.:21:18.

nothing to do with what he said during the campaign. His personal

:21:19.:21:23.

life has nothing to do with the claptrap of the social conservative

:21:24.:21:26.

religious conservatives he pandered to. He had friends in the Islamic

:21:27.:21:32.

community, particularly rich Muslims to whom he sold apartments and did

:21:33.:21:36.

business deals over many years and like most American businessmen he

:21:37.:21:43.

has made enormous amount of money off global, nurse. So the notion

:21:44.:21:48.

that the United States is somehow going to retreat from global

:21:49.:21:50.

commerce under President Trump is almost a joke. So we will have to

:21:51.:21:56.

sort out the corruption problems and there are many of them but I do not

:21:57.:22:00.

see this presidency going in the direction that he talked about

:22:01.:22:05.

simply in order to pander to white working-class voters with their

:22:06.:22:12.

protectionist agenda. You sound as if you are reassured by the breath

:22:13.:22:15.

and skill of his business interests if anything but you keep returning

:22:16.:22:20.

to this word corruption and that is quite a fierce charge, what do you

:22:21.:22:26.

worry about? There is potential for corruption here when you have a

:22:27.:22:30.

president who has enormous business holdings all over the world and is

:22:31.:22:33.

supposed to be conducting the affairs of the United States

:22:34.:22:37.

government and supervising people throughout the executive branch who

:22:38.:22:41.

are conducting the business of the United States government. We have a

:22:42.:22:45.

whole range of problems that could come up, people will be peppering

:22:46.:22:49.

his businesses with lawsuits, the plaintiffs lawyers in the United

:22:50.:22:52.

States are more than happy to go after President Trump. They can sue

:22:53.:22:58.

at the drop of a hat, do not have took pay the losers these if they

:22:59.:23:02.

sue and lose as they would in other parts of the world. We saw how

:23:03.:23:07.

litigation against the President worked out under President Clinton

:23:08.:23:12.

and I think this will be a very bad situation if President Trump does

:23:13.:23:16.

not dispose of these assets around the world. Another problem is the

:23:17.:23:19.

potential for foreign government money to get into the Trump business

:23:20.:23:25.

empire to his financial benefit and that would be prohibited by the

:23:26.:23:28.

emoluments clause of the United States Constitution. We have that

:23:29.:23:34.

provision because of the practice in the 18th century of the Crown in

:23:35.:23:40.

England, Great Britain, of giving emollients to members of Parliament,

:23:41.:23:46.

we did not want that going on. Explained to us, who steps in? You

:23:47.:23:51.

are an ethics lawyer, Donald Trump has done everything differently, he

:23:52.:23:55.

has got Congress entirely on his side in terms of the Republican

:23:56.:24:00.

base, so who would actually step in and tell him that he is doing wrong?

:24:01.:24:07.

I am not sure Congress will be on his side, each member of Congress is

:24:08.:24:13.

in it for themselves in their own district. I don't think the

:24:14.:24:16.

Republican members of Congress are going to put up with a situation

:24:17.:24:20.

where the president appears to be benefiting financially from his

:24:21.:24:28.

public office, in particular I get back to this concern about money

:24:29.:24:32.

coming in from foreign governments because that is specifically

:24:33.:24:35.

prohibited under our Constitution so he is going at a minimum to have to

:24:36.:24:41.

make absolutely sure that are linked with the Bank of China, with

:24:42.:24:44.

sovereign wealth funds, these diplomats staying in Trump hotels,

:24:45.:24:48.

all of that is going to have to be cleansed of any impression of a

:24:49.:24:56.

gift. OK, Richard Painter, thank you very much. We should say we do not

:24:57.:25:00.

know what is going on, there has been denials of any impropriety in

:25:01.:25:04.

his business dealings so far, Richard Painter thank you very much.

:25:05.:25:07.

What does the Prime Minister have to do to help business?

:25:08.:25:09.

Today she told the CBI she was going to help them

:25:10.:25:12.

by offering support to entrepreneurs and innovative companies.

:25:13.:25:14.

But - when you speak to businesses themseves -

:25:15.:25:16.

Well the boss of the biggest tech company in this country has told

:25:17.:25:21.

Newsnight that the Government needs to bring in a radical reform

:25:22.:25:23.

of the tax system to create something that suits

:25:24.:25:25.

The man in question is called Stephen Kelly -

:25:26.:25:29.

boss of the software giant Sage, and he's been talking

:25:30.:25:31.

This plan for a radical tax reform, what is it? Stephen Kelly is a

:25:32.:25:44.

significant voice in British business because he runs Sage which

:25:45.:25:48.

is the largest take company in the UK. Also he was at one time the

:25:49.:25:54.

chief operating officer for the government. So he knows how the tax

:25:55.:25:59.

system works. I have been talking to him about exactly the challenges are

:26:00.:26:04.

facing Britain at the moment. Lots of thoughts but they sympathise into

:26:05.:26:08.

two things, firstly his complaints about the tax system and that is

:26:09.:26:12.

also because the impact of the Digital economy. Companies like

:26:13.:26:16.

Amazon and Google and Facebook and where do they pay their taxes? He

:26:17.:26:21.

thinks these two things blend into one around business rates, that's

:26:22.:26:25.

something we've had for centuries, brought in during the reign of the

:26:26.:26:33.

first Queen Elizabeth and he says it's now an arcane link between

:26:34.:26:35.

property and tax because so much money is generated digitally, not

:26:36.:26:39.

least by Amazon and Google, companies who don't pay historic

:26:40.:26:46.

amounts of tax but generate massive amounts of revenue. Stephen Kelly

:26:47.:26:49.

has told us that he thinks there should be an overview of the tax

:26:50.:26:53.

system and a complete rethinking of it, looking at money hurt online and

:26:54.:26:57.

crucially he is proposing the complete abolition of business

:26:58.:26:58.

rates. Actually, I think it's down

:26:59.:27:00.

to the government to step up and have a radical reform of the tax

:27:01.:27:03.

system to make it fair. If you asked any executive

:27:04.:27:07.

they want to be fair and they want to pay tax

:27:08.:27:10.

in the appropriate jurisdiction, but it is down to the government

:27:11.:27:12.

to make sure the simplicity of the tax system really represents

:27:13.:27:18.

the way where physical presence, like property, have very little

:27:19.:27:20.

meaning in 2016. It may have meant something 400

:27:21.:27:24.

years ago when there was no Internet, but the Internet

:27:25.:27:27.

has changed everything. And you can see through

:27:28.:27:29.

the prevalence of online shopping, the whole kind of focus

:27:30.:27:32.

and the shift towards a digital economy that effectively a tax

:27:33.:27:36.

system created in the essence of Genesis 400 years ago makes

:27:37.:27:41.

no sense today. Is he worried about taking on the

:27:42.:27:52.

big giants? He is but he runs a very big company himself. And remember he

:27:53.:27:57.

has worked in the States and here, and all you need is one clever idea

:27:58.:28:03.

and you can generate a huge company, so I asked him having worked on both

:28:04.:28:06.

sides of the Atlantic what advice would you give to British take

:28:07.:28:10.

companies? There is a difference in terms of not just the philosophy of

:28:11.:28:16.

technology and how you embrace it but also the culture and the

:28:17.:28:20.

attitudes we have. I would probably say looking at the difference in the

:28:21.:28:24.

UK we are more anxious and there is a bit of fear of failure, in the US

:28:25.:28:29.

we encourage the culture where we fail fast and learn and grow. So I

:28:30.:28:33.

think if there is a lesson to be learnt from silicon valley it is

:28:34.:28:38.

probably that we should abandon that fear of failure. Stephen Kelly the

:28:39.:28:42.

boss of Sage speaking to Adam Parsons earlier.

:28:43.:28:44.

Tony Blair - Labour's most electorally successful leader ever -

:28:45.:28:49.

will not be returning to front line politics and will not be seeking

:28:50.:28:52.

Those in his inner circle say they would not be surprised to see

:28:53.:28:59.

the former PM reappear - and indeed the frequency

:29:00.:29:01.

with which he reminds us how vacant the centre ground is does little

:29:02.:29:04.

to dispell the notion he is measuring up

:29:05.:29:07.

He wants - his office tells us - to remain part of the debate.

:29:08.:29:12.

He is also reported to be looking for a new base in London now.

:29:13.:29:15.

So would Tony Blair be warmly welcomed into

:29:16.:29:17.

Or is he seen as a busted - and still toxic - flush?

:29:18.:29:23.

Brexiteers - who believe the latter - are getting quite excited

:29:24.:29:26.

Joining me now Caroline Lucas, joint leader of the Greens,

:29:27.:29:30.

and John McTernan, former advisor to Tony Blair.

:29:31.:29:37.

Very nice to have you both here. John, is your sense there is

:29:38.:29:43.

something rippling below the waters, he would like to come back despite

:29:44.:29:48.

the denials? People are getting very excited, he is biggest political

:29:49.:29:54.

figure of our era and people cannot stop talking about him because

:29:55.:29:57.

everybody wants him back in some way, shape or form. He has not gone

:29:58.:30:03.

away, has been commenting and talking on politics. Had a great

:30:04.:30:07.

essay in the new European about the challenges of Brexit. When you say

:30:08.:30:13.

everyone wants him back in any way shape or form, you mean his enemies

:30:14.:30:16.

want him back, but not on their side? No, it is nearly a decade

:30:17.:30:22.

since he stopped being Prime Minister and stopped being an MP and

:30:23.:30:25.

we are on television talking about him. For Labour, he was the last

:30:26.:30:32.

time Labour won anything? He was the last time Labour won anything, but

:30:33.:30:36.

the idea that it qualifies him now to come back after everything with

:30:37.:30:40.

the Iraq war and the dodgy dealings with dictators and take some moral

:30:41.:30:44.

high ground in our political debate now beggars belief. John needs to

:30:45.:30:48.

get out more, people are not begging for him to come back. The last few

:30:49.:30:55.

months, if it has told us anything, the political establishment is not

:30:56.:30:58.

held in a great deal of respect now. And Tony Blair, the way he is

:30:59.:31:04.

associated with that, the idea he would be a good spokesperson for the

:31:05.:31:08.

remain campaign or anything else right now is ludicrous. He might

:31:09.:31:12.

have this lightning rod for everybody who hates New Labour,

:31:13.:31:18.

hates remain and the Iraq war, all your enemies could target on this

:31:19.:31:24.

one thing. Half the country voted to stay in the European Union and

:31:25.:31:29.

people are thinking about the vote, car workers did not vote for

:31:30.:31:33.

tariffs. Wouldn't you like to have a strong voice like that? I wouldn't

:31:34.:31:38.

want it to be Tony Blair. What John doesn't recognise is the message she

:31:39.:31:44.

gives might not be the problem but the messenger is. He is

:31:45.:31:47.

fundamentally contaminated. People don't see that. Get out in the real

:31:48.:31:51.

world, people are not talking about Tony Blair in anything other than

:31:52.:31:57.

regretful terms because it is a lost opportunity. He could have been a

:31:58.:32:03.

wonderful advocate but he is fatally compromised and fatally

:32:04.:32:05.

contaminated. We have a Prime Minister not up to the job, we have

:32:06.:32:09.

a leader of an opposition whose ambition is to make the Labour Party

:32:10.:32:14.

ultraleft and we have Tim Farron representing the centre ground.

:32:15.:32:22.

Someone who is known for lying, taken the country to an illegal and

:32:23.:32:26.

immoral war under a false prospectus, is that what the country

:32:27.:32:32.

is crying out for? It is not just about what the Greens thing, it is

:32:33.:32:37.

abuse. It is ridiculous. Does that tell you how empty the ground is

:32:38.:32:49.

then, if somebody, from... From this perspective from Brexit, you would

:32:50.:32:53.

welcome it but can you tolerate the thought? Caroline represents a

:32:54.:33:00.

strand of thought is way to the left of the Labour Party, more

:33:01.:33:04.

destructive than John McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn. Tony Blair has said,

:33:05.:33:12.

the vast bulk of British people are unrepresented in British politics.

:33:13.:33:17.

There is no voice. Come back to the idea that Tony Blair is the person

:33:18.:33:22.

to fill that space is wrong. We have the Greens, the Lib Dems, the

:33:23.:33:25.

Nationalists and some in Labour who are doing their best to fill that

:33:26.:33:34.

space. Mr Chilcott, thought the boil would be lanced, he has done his

:33:35.:33:43.

time, got to move forward now, is there in which he can move forward?

:33:44.:33:51.

I say it with regret because he is charismatic, he has huge

:33:52.:33:55.

communication skills. In many ways, he is a brilliant communicator but

:33:56.:34:00.

he is contaminated. That is a voice that will echo throughout TV sets at

:34:01.:34:04.

home. Labour voters when polled said they would rather have Tony Blair as

:34:05.:34:08.

leader of the Labour Party than Jeremy Corbyn. It is not surprising

:34:09.:34:13.

because Tony Blair today, articulate a vision of where Britain should go.

:34:14.:34:19.

Far more powerful and profound than any leading politician of any of the

:34:20.:34:22.

major political parties at the moment. If there wasn't a vacuum at

:34:23.:34:27.

the heart of British politics, we wouldn't be so excited and obsessed

:34:28.:34:32.

with Tony Blair. Caroline just talks and talks about him, like a lot

:34:33.:34:37.

of... I didn't talk about him until I was asked to come here. People go

:34:38.:34:42.

on about Tony, you fascinate them. He is a global figure. What you are

:34:43.:34:47.

both saying, from the remain perspective, the job is not being

:34:48.:34:51.

done properly for you. Not by anybody in the House of Commons. I

:34:52.:34:56.

disagree, it is a shame Labour is not united on this and Labour should

:34:57.:35:00.

be making a stronger case in holding the government to account when it

:35:01.:35:05.

comes to Article 50, when it comes to the terms. Tony Blair is the only

:35:06.:35:10.

person who can do this now? That is what I disagree with. Labour voters,

:35:11.:35:17.

remain voters are being betrayed by Jeremy Corbyn. We have a Brexit vote

:35:18.:35:22.

which is a consequence of the betrayal of Jeremy Corbyn. In that

:35:23.:35:28.

space there is backing for thinking outside the Labour Party and

:35:29.:35:31.

thinking outside the House of Commons. The Brexit vote was fuelled

:35:32.:35:35.

in part that people don't trust politicians any more. Why don't they

:35:36.:35:38.

trust them any more, not least because of the way Tony Blair took

:35:39.:35:43.

us to war. I sorry, but it is true. Thank you both.

:35:44.:35:46.

To some Edward Snowden is a hero, a whistleblower who exposed

:35:47.:35:49.

the extraordinary extent of the United States's surveillance

:35:50.:35:51.

To others, notably the US government, the former spook

:35:52.:35:55.

is a traitor who must stand trial - if he ever emerges from Russia,

:35:56.:35:58.

where he says he's been grounded since his passport was revoked.

:35:59.:36:01.

A feature film based on Snowden's story is coming

:36:02.:36:03.

to a cinema near you, through the good offices of

:36:04.:36:06.

Playing the lead is actor Joseph Gordon Levitt,

:36:07.:36:10.

who has made his own study of the relationship

:36:11.:36:12.

He's been talking to our Culture Correspondent Stephen Smith.

:36:13.:36:19.

There's something going on inside the government that's

:36:20.:36:21.

I just want to get this data to the world.

:36:22.:36:27.

It is from his point of view trying to get inside of his head.

:36:28.:36:32.

I feel like I'm made to do this and if I don't do it,

:36:33.:36:36.

then I don't know anyone else who can.

:36:37.:36:42.

What I found, when you have conversations about Edward Snowden,

:36:43.:36:44.

it matters less about the technology, the policy,

:36:45.:36:48.

you can tell them all the facts about why mass surveillance

:36:49.:36:50.

is unconstitutional, but what they want

:36:51.:36:52.

If you take more than eight, you will fail.

:36:53.:37:09.

The Snowdon of Oliver Stone's film is a patriot and a tech nerd.

:37:10.:37:21.

Injured out of the Army, he becomes a rookie spook,

:37:22.:37:25.

designing a covert communications network

:37:26.:37:26.

You don't have to tell me when you have completed a stage.

:37:27.:37:43.

No, I finished the whole thing.

:37:44.:37:44.

I believe you went to see him in Moscow?

:37:45.:37:50.

How did you find him, what was that like?

:37:51.:37:54.

I have been really fortunate in my life that I've got to meet

:37:55.:37:58.

a lot of people who I admire a lot, but at Edward Snowdon

:37:59.:38:01.

This is a guy that risked his life to stand up for what he believes in.

:38:02.:38:11.

I think he appears as himself doesn't he at the end of

:38:12.:38:14.

He's living in Moscow now and a lot of his critics like to use that

:38:15.:38:24.

against him and say, then he must be working

:38:25.:38:26.

The truth is, what happened he went to Hong Kong to hand

:38:27.:38:33.

the information he took over to select set journalists.

:38:34.:38:36.

The government knows we have these documents now.

:38:37.:38:45.

The CIA could barge through this door at any minute and

:38:46.:38:48.

Act like a (SOUND DIPS) journalist and stop stringing us along.

:38:49.:38:52.

But a lot of people in your country would say he is a traitor

:38:53.:38:55.

and would like to see him stand trial?

:38:56.:38:57.

Any time someone stands up to a powerful authority throughout

:38:58.:38:59.

history, that powerful authority tries to discredit them.

:39:00.:39:01.

It's a question of government being accountable to the people.

:39:02.:39:09.

Whether or not mass surveillance is right or wrong, that is a discussion

:39:10.:39:14.

we can have and I think there are valid points on both sides. With

:39:15.:39:21.

roles in blockbusters like Inception Gordon Levitt is on a good street.

:39:22.:39:27.

Did his agent won him a controversial Oliver Stone movie

:39:28.:39:33.

might not be a smart career move. How do I'd drop you without gravity.

:39:34.:39:41.

A lot of people said that to me. They said, what you're saying,

:39:42.:39:45.

controversial figure, polarising in the United States, you have to think

:39:46.:39:48.

about the commercial viability of your career. I don't think those

:39:49.:39:56.

people are wrong. But I just, I don't know, I couldn't make my

:39:57.:40:00.

decisions on that kind of thinking. A lot of my friends are very

:40:01.:40:05.

concerned about the fact we give away so much information about

:40:06.:40:08.

ourselves very freely, but we don't think about the consequences. What

:40:09.:40:14.

power we are giving to someone else. Actor Enyeama Watson and others

:40:15.:40:18.

debate over sharing and the relationship between technology and

:40:19.:40:26.

democracy. I am optimistic about technology. I tend to think the

:40:27.:40:32.

Internet, it provides us with so much information, so much connection

:40:33.:40:35.

from person to person, it is a great thing. I never really stopped for a

:40:36.:40:40.

moment to think of any of the potential pitfalls this new

:40:41.:40:46.

technology might have. This film is a cautionary tale about those

:40:47.:40:51.

pitfalls. Most Americans don't want freedom, they want security, it is a

:40:52.:40:56.

simple bargain. Good girl, good girl. Incidentally, supplies the

:40:57.:41:06.

real pleasure of this act to cover chewing the scenery as a

:41:07.:41:12.

Machiavellian spy craft. Where is the modern battlefield soldier?

:41:13.:41:14.

Everywhere. Before we go, here's

:41:15.:41:17.

something to savour. The grammy-winning mezzo-soprano

:41:18.:41:19.

Joyce DiDomato is in the UK this week for a performance

:41:20.:41:22.

of her new collection, In War Peace -

:41:23.:41:24.

Harmony through Music. The album is all about the healing

:41:25.:41:26.

power of music in an epoch And we're lucky enough

:41:27.:41:29.

to have her here tonight, accompanied by the ensemble il

:41:30.:41:33.

Pomodoro, to perform MUSIC: "Handel's Lascia

:41:34.:42:26.

ch'io pianga."

:42:27.:42:35.

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