05/12/2016 Newsnight


05/12/2016

With Evan Davis. Europe takes another blow as Renzi resigns. Plus the government takes on the judiciary in the Supreme Court and why can't Britain's communities integrate?


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Transcript


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Good grief, does that leave HIM to be the one picking up the pieces?

:00:09.:00:27.

It's been a difficult year for the EU, and it just got

:00:28.:00:30.

Are the Brussels institutions capable of recognising

:00:31.:00:33.

a crisis when it hits them, and then responding to it?

:00:34.:00:35.

We'll hear the view from Vienna and Rome where votes

:00:36.:00:38.

have just taken place And ask this commissioner how

:00:39.:00:40.

Also tonight, you may have seen these aerial shots

:00:41.:00:47.

We meet the Syrians in the city who are filming them.

:00:48.:01:01.

And after the riots in 2001, we had reports into social

:01:02.:01:07.

Are we moving forward, or going round in circles?

:01:08.:01:23.

We'd all seen it coming, but the deed was done yesterday.

:01:24.:01:27.

Italian voters chucked out their prime minister Matteo Renzi,

:01:28.:01:31.

and threw out his plans to make the constitution more decisive.

:01:32.:01:34.

Economically, it makes reform harder, making it more difficult

:01:35.:01:36.

Politically it empowers the populist Five Star

:01:37.:01:40.

Movement which wants a referendum on the euro.

:01:41.:01:44.

And the political and economic uncertainty adds to the financial

:01:45.:01:47.

pressure on Italy's damaged banking system.

:01:48.:01:50.

The implications for Italy are huge, the ramifications

:01:51.:01:52.

The only good news for the Brussels elite was the fact that Austria

:01:53.:01:58.

turned away from the far right candidate and elected

:01:59.:02:00.

We can join Gabriel Gatehouse in Vienna and Mark Urban in Rome.

:02:01.:02:11.

Let's start with Austria and the Brussels elite is breathing a sigh

:02:12.:02:20.

of relief. But the glasses only 54% full because 40s 6% of the

:02:21.:02:25.

population voted for someone on the far right. -- 46%. It is not the end

:02:26.:02:36.

of the road for the far right Freedom party because there are

:02:37.:02:39.

likely to be elections next year and they could win the more powerful

:02:40.:02:45.

Chancellor post instead. Austria really is not the most important

:02:46.:02:49.

piece of this puzzle. There will be two elections in the first half of

:02:50.:02:52.

next year that potentially will be fundamental to the future of the

:02:53.:02:57.

European project. The first in the Netherlands where Goethe builders,

:02:58.:03:02.

with his deeply Eurosceptic group, is leading in the polls and then of

:03:03.:03:06.

course the French presidential election with Marine Le Pen almost

:03:07.:03:12.

certain to reach the second round run-off. Couple that with what is

:03:13.:03:17.

going on in Italy and some pretty Eurosceptic administration is

:03:18.:03:20.

already in place in countries like Poland and Hungary and you have

:03:21.:03:25.

something that is quite combustible. These groups do not all agree on

:03:26.:03:29.

their critique of the EU, they do not want their own version of the

:03:30.:03:32.

heart Brexit, they do not even all want to leave the euro but they do

:03:33.:03:36.

want to reimagine their relationship with the union. I hesitate to make

:03:37.:03:44.

the comparison but in the past few weeks I have been forcibly reminded

:03:45.:03:46.

of something that Gorbachev once said about perestroika, but the

:03:47.:03:53.

soviet union was like a big rusty piece of machinery and he said I

:03:54.:03:59.

wanted just to tinker with it a bit and loosen the screws but then the

:04:00.:04:01.

whole thing began to shatter and shake, the screws came loose and all

:04:02.:04:04.

of a sudden the whole thing collapsed. A good metaphor! Let's go

:04:05.:04:17.

to Rome. Matteo Renzi will stay on for a few days, what happens next?

:04:18.:04:23.

What is clear from the referendum, which after all was on quite an

:04:24.:04:28.

obscure package of constitutional reforms, is there is a huge

:04:29.:04:32.

undercurrent of discontent with politics as usual here and in

:04:33.:04:38.

particular with economics as usual. A 70% turnout on the referendum

:04:39.:04:42.

vote. Once Matteo Renzi has gone through these next few days to put

:04:43.:04:47.

the budget through, the question is how soon can there be an election in

:04:48.:04:51.

this country. I have heard people saying between February and April,

:04:52.:04:55.

but there is not the right legal machinery in place to do that yet

:04:56.:04:59.

because it is all up in the air because of the package of reforms

:05:00.:05:03.

that was going through. That means crisis for the next few weeks.

:05:04.:05:07.

Pressure on the banks and then at the end of it, and election in which

:05:08.:05:12.

two of the three parties losing in the polls say they want to take

:05:13.:05:14.

Italy out of the euro. As this most unusual of political

:05:15.:05:32.

years draws to a close Italy becomes another place where something

:05:33.:05:35.

exceptional was happening. Government with a large majority

:05:36.:05:42.

upended by a referendum. A leader routed, his friends argue by his own

:05:43.:05:48.

sense of honour. There's a lesson that Matteo Renzi gave to the

:05:49.:05:52.

political establishment in Italy no one resigns. And nobody really wins

:05:53.:05:59.

elections or loses Rab referendum and everyone remains seated in his

:06:00.:06:05.

chair. And Matteo Renzi took political responsibility,

:06:06.:06:12.

accountability. That is an English word with no translation in Italian.

:06:13.:06:17.

So Prime Minister gets flushed away but that is far from the end this.

:06:18.:06:24.

Matteo Renzi was in the middle of remaking Italy's electoral Lawes and

:06:25.:06:27.

help people are represented in their democratic institutions. And that

:06:28.:06:32.

what has not been completed meaning that they cannot just have a fresh

:06:33.:06:36.

general election tomorrow. Add to that the fact that the country has

:06:37.:06:40.

got to pass a national budget before the year is out, and you have a deep

:06:41.:06:45.

crisis with no one really in control.

:06:46.:06:48.

People have gathered outside the Prime Minister ill Palace to watch

:06:49.:06:57.

it play. Matteo Renzi was hoisted not just by constitutional arguments

:06:58.:07:01.

say his opponents but the apparent inability of Italy to pull itself

:07:02.:07:09.

out of the economic doldrums. TRANSLATION: The government in

:07:10.:07:12.

recent years has not delivered on its promises to Italians. And so

:07:13.:07:17.

turnout was very high, higher than at local elections six months ago.

:07:18.:07:25.

That is because citizens wanted to say no, that is enough with this

:07:26.:07:30.

government, that is enough of my terror Renfe, with Europe, the banks

:07:31.:07:34.

and Angela Merkel. Tonight it emerged that Matteo Renzi has been

:07:35.:07:38.

asked to stay on a few days longer to finalise Italy's budget for 2017.

:07:39.:07:46.

Saha along with the new government had to put fresh electoral Lawes in

:07:47.:07:52.

place, as the markets I upped the tottering Italian banks. Not so

:07:53.:07:59.

long, I do believe there's usually a measurable financial markets take

:08:00.:08:03.

the position a little bit before the event, as usual. And now they are in

:08:04.:08:13.

some kind of stand-by position. But real answers must be given by Italy

:08:14.:08:18.

as the country, starting with the president of the Republic trying to

:08:19.:08:21.

arrange another government with specific tasks, the first

:08:22.:08:28.

immediately to pass the budget law for 2017. That must be by December.

:08:29.:08:35.

And to have a new electoral law secondly to go to new elections and

:08:36.:08:42.

give Italy a little bit stronger political government, posted by

:08:43.:08:47.

Italian citizens. And waiting in the wings is this

:08:48.:08:55.

man. Beppe Grillo, leader of the Five Star Movement. They campaigned

:08:56.:08:59.

against Matteo Renzi in the referendum and they are well placed

:09:00.:09:02.

for any general election. They're complaining to take Italy out of the

:09:03.:09:08.

euro. How real is that threat now? It is clear that the Five Star

:09:09.:09:14.

Movement wants to get Italy out of the eurozone. And this is the

:09:15.:09:20.

paradox of the coalition which supported a note to the

:09:21.:09:26.

Constitutional reform, it was a real bunch of has-been, former Prime

:09:27.:09:32.

Minister, a good part of the establishment which struck an

:09:33.:09:35.

alliance between the neofascists of the extreme right and the populist

:09:36.:09:41.

Five Star Movement. And this probably is the most, the biggest

:09:42.:09:45.

paradox of this situation, it was a no without any reality.

:09:46.:09:55.

For those who beat Matteo Renzi the referendum was a cause for

:09:56.:09:58.

celebration. It may prove to have been just the appetiser for an

:09:59.:10:03.

enormous change in politics here. One in which the main course in an

:10:04.:10:08.

election expected this spring will be whether Italy should stay in the

:10:09.:10:10.

euro. Well if you add in Brexit, Italy,

:10:11.:10:21.

far right parties, does it add up to a crisis?

:10:22.:10:22.

Laszlo Andor is the former European Commissioner for Employment,

:10:23.:10:24.

Do you think the top brass in the EU recognise this is a manifest crisis

:10:25.:10:35.

for the EU at the moment or are they hoping it will just go away? I think

:10:36.:10:40.

there is enough understanding and has been for some time that the

:10:41.:10:45.

monetary union in its current form is not entirely sustainable and they

:10:46.:10:53.

will have to be reforms. This has been very slow, decision-making

:10:54.:10:56.

making obviously should be faster. It does not mean however that people

:10:57.:11:00.

do not realise that these reforms are needed. I think everyone thinks

:11:01.:11:08.

it is an economic challenge. What about the political side, that

:11:09.:11:10.

voters everywhere you give them the chance seem to be saying, whoever it

:11:11.:11:15.

is up there, we do not really like you. It does not necessarily look as

:11:16.:11:21.

though the top guard of the EU really get that. A lot of

:11:22.:11:28.

frustration came up in the Italian referendum but it was not a

:11:29.:11:32.

referendum about the EU or membership of the EU, any

:11:33.:11:36.

interpretation would be a distortion in that fashion. This was a domestic

:11:37.:11:42.

or constitutional question which was raised and there were many

:11:43.:11:46.

pro-Europeans on both sides of the yes and the no camp yesterday. I

:11:47.:11:50.

wonder whether that is a little complacent because you can disregard

:11:51.:11:57.

one vote or another but everywhere, whether Austria, the UK or Italy or

:11:58.:12:03.

indeed Greece, everywhere you go voters given the chance of voting

:12:04.:12:10.

for change and when they see the EU it is an institution that moves that

:12:11.:12:15.

one speed, very slowly. And just cannot change and absorb the

:12:16.:12:18.

capacity for change that the public currently have? If you really watch

:12:19.:12:24.

this, the voters voted against change, Matteo Renzi both dashed he

:12:25.:12:30.

wanted change and the voters voted against that, this was quite a

:12:31.:12:32.

different thing from what you describe. I think you're not getting

:12:33.:12:37.

the kind of changed the voters are voting for, they're not writing

:12:38.:12:40.

about constitutional change, they are voting for changing the guard,

:12:41.:12:44.

changing the top brass. Do you think for example that Juncker is the

:12:45.:12:53.

right man to lead the EU through this restaurant is a huge economic

:12:54.:12:58.

crisis and paralysis in Italy, do you think with this happening on his

:12:59.:13:02.

watch, he should just stay there and carry on as though nothing is

:13:03.:13:06.

happening all would be better if he got out of the way and say, the

:13:07.:13:10.

voters do not like the establishment and we new blood. You are connecting

:13:11.:13:17.

entirely distinct issues. The leadership of the EU institutions is

:13:18.:13:22.

organised in a way which is legitimate and based on the treaties

:13:23.:13:28.

approved by all the member states including Italy, the UK and other

:13:29.:13:34.

countries. This referendum in Italy was about how to reform the Italian

:13:35.:13:38.

constitution especially the Senate, how to make decision-making faster,

:13:39.:13:47.

how to make the political class more cost efficient inside Italy. People

:13:48.:13:55.

were not asked about Juncker or the European leadership on this issue.

:13:56.:14:00.

If you want to press this it is just very artificial and misleading I am

:14:01.:14:04.

afraid. It is interesting that you say that because I'm not sure to the

:14:05.:14:11.

average British person that it feels that remote, all over Europe people

:14:12.:14:15.

seem to feel there is a disconnect between their lives and those of the

:14:16.:14:19.

people governing them. A lot of that is coming out in frustration with

:14:20.:14:22.

the EU and people watching this would say you're just a part of the

:14:23.:14:27.

problem. In failing to recognise what is a huge and important

:14:28.:14:31.

interaction with the voters and trying to dismiss that as a

:14:32.:14:38.

technical vote on a constitution or a little internal affair. Do not

:14:39.:14:40.

feel it is bigger than that? There has been a shift in

:14:41.:14:52.

pro-European opinion because people realise that before the UK

:14:53.:14:58.

referendum, a lot of politicians, especially in the Leave campaign

:14:59.:15:02.

were telling lies about the European Union. Now there is a period of

:15:03.:15:08.

reckoning, a period of understanding of what it means to destabilise the

:15:09.:15:13.

European Union, what it means and what it costs to leave the European

:15:14.:15:19.

Union. Of course, a period when people look into these details a lot

:15:20.:15:26.

more than before and that makes people more pro-European, which we

:15:27.:15:29.

have seen in the Austrian presidential election, where the

:15:30.:15:35.

Green candidate winning with a greater margin than he did in the

:15:36.:15:37.

spring. Thanks. The second, final and decisive

:15:38.:15:40.

round of the contest between the government

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and the judiciary kicked off today with arguments put

:15:43.:15:45.

in the Supreme Court over whether Parliament has a right to

:15:46.:15:49.

a say on the invoking of Article 50. We won't get a result for a while,

:15:50.:15:52.

but TV viewers could watch It was quite heavy going,

:15:53.:15:55.

and won't I suspect, Our political editor

:15:56.:15:59.

Nick Watt was watching. Our starter for ten after a day at

:16:00.:16:14.

the Supreme Court is, what links Freddie Laker, Greenland, the

:16:15.:16:22.

Bahamas, and a grand hotel now demolished? Yes, these were legal

:16:23.:16:30.

cases cited as the government sought to overturn a ruling by the High

:16:31.:16:35.

Court that Brexit negotiations must be triggered by Parliament and not

:16:36.:16:39.

ministers using ancient royal powers. The government's main QC,

:16:40.:16:45.

James Eadie, argued ministers need not hold a parliamentary vote. He

:16:46.:16:51.

said since the inception of Article 50 in the Lisbon Treaty, MPs have

:16:52.:16:54.

not argued it is up to them to trigger the process. James Eadie was

:16:55.:17:01.

saying where Parliament has not said, I am taking this power away,

:17:02.:17:06.

it still rests with the prerogative. He was saying the Royal Prerogative

:17:07.:17:11.

exists on a separate plane over and above the domestic sphere and unless

:17:12.:17:17.

Parliament is saying it is taking it away. James Eadie was saying the

:17:18.:17:22.

European Communities Act, which is at the heart of this case, is merely

:17:23.:17:29.

a conduit for transposing those international law rights into

:17:30.:17:34.

domestic law. James Eadie cited the case of a Tameside hotel from the

:17:35.:17:39.

20s to underline his point. This was an elegant grand hotel on the

:17:40.:17:44.

Victoria embankment that suddenly got requisitioned by the government

:17:45.:17:49.

in World War I and there was a statute that said they had to pay a

:17:50.:17:53.

certain amount of compensation. They said no, we used the Royal

:17:54.:17:59.

Prerogative to requisition it, we do not have to pay. The Court of Appeal

:18:00.:18:03.

and House of Lords found they did, because a statute restrained the

:18:04.:18:09.

prerogative. Whatever the 11 justices decided, this is likely to

:18:10.:18:14.

be a landmark case. It will not prevent the triggering of Article 50

:18:15.:18:19.

but it could lead to major alterations in Britain's

:18:20.:18:23.

constitutional settlement encompassing Royal Prerogative

:18:24.:18:27.

powers and the role of devolved administrations in Scotland, Wales

:18:28.:18:30.

and Northern Ireland in UK by decision-making will stop this is a

:18:31.:18:36.

hugely important constitutional case that goes beyond the issues arising

:18:37.:18:42.

out of Brexit, because it concerns a part of our Constitution, the Royal

:18:43.:18:49.

Prerogative, and touches on devolved power to Scotland, Wales and

:18:50.:18:53.

Northern Ireland. And we have a Supreme Court that... We do not have

:18:54.:18:59.

a written constitution, but they have an important role in

:19:00.:19:02.

interpreting the unwritten constitution. I come from... To this

:19:03.:19:09.

as a traditional conservative. Historically I have always believed

:19:10.:19:13.

this country manage well with an unwritten constitution. In recent

:19:14.:19:16.

years I have begun to have doubts and those doubts do not centre on EU

:19:17.:19:23.

membership, they centre on devolution and managing a system of

:19:24.:19:28.

devolved power to different parts of the UK and maintaining an overall

:19:29.:19:32.

framework. I am on record saying I think we need to give careful

:19:33.:19:36.

thought to whether we shouldn't have some kind of written constitution.

:19:37.:19:41.

It needn't be a detailed document, but one that sets out a framework

:19:42.:19:47.

for those relationships. Emotions are running high as the Supreme

:19:48.:19:51.

Court is asked to rule on how the Brexit negotiations should be

:19:52.:19:56.

triggered. One You support is relax. The triggering of Article 50 is in

:19:57.:20:06.

line to start next year and whether the Supreme Court disagrees with the

:20:07.:20:09.

High Court and says you can crack on, or whether we have to bring a

:20:10.:20:13.

short bill to the house, Parliament will not frustrate that. They are

:20:14.:20:17.

acceptable solutions to get on with doing what is a major change to our

:20:18.:20:23.

constitutional position. Just a stone's throw from Parliament there

:20:24.:20:28.

is a new kid on the block. The Supreme Court has only sat the seven

:20:29.:20:33.

years but it is now cementing its position in Britain's ever evolving

:20:34.:20:35.

constitutional settlement. Rather than argue about how

:20:36.:20:38.

our constitution works in the supreme court,

:20:39.:20:43.

could we perhaps codify the rules, so that we know in advance

:20:44.:20:45.

what the rules are and have Or do we prefer our slightly messy

:20:46.:20:48.

unwritten rules that perhaps have the capacity to flex

:20:49.:20:52.

when you need them? Dr Catherine Haddon is from

:20:53.:20:54.

The Institute for Government. Thanks for coming in. The Dominic

:20:55.:21:02.

Grieve point, he is coming around to the idea, he might need to codify

:21:03.:21:08.

things around the Royal Prerogative, particularly devolution. Is that a

:21:09.:21:14.

good idea? It is difficult to say in circumstances where we have things

:21:15.:21:18.

in flux. It is almost as if you wanted to do it in advance. There is

:21:19.:21:23.

so much going on where the constitution is in flux. We are

:21:24.:21:27.

repatriating powers in the process of leaving the EU. There is a lot we

:21:28.:21:34.

need to think about in terms of the Constitution, bringing in other

:21:35.:21:39.

issues in terms of codify in, consolidating our Constitution might

:21:40.:21:43.

be a step too far at the moment. A lot of people are deeply attracted

:21:44.:21:48.

to the idea of having a proper written constitution so you know

:21:49.:21:52.

what the rules are. Does that lead to more dispute because in the US

:21:53.:21:58.

they seem to argue about nothing but constitutional rights, or does it

:21:59.:22:02.

resolve disputes to write it down? It is difficult to know. What we are

:22:03.:22:08.

seeing at the moment, the Supreme Court deciding on this issue, is in

:22:09.:22:13.

effect what we could see more of. You have different issues. The

:22:14.:22:18.

question about transparency, do we understand the constitution, should

:22:19.:22:22.

it be consolidated? The issue of whose authority decides the

:22:23.:22:27.

constitution? The Supreme Court Parliament, the government? And

:22:28.:22:30.

prerogative powers, but they are Tom when they should adapt. The

:22:31.:22:37.

complicated thing about the UK, Parliament is sovereign and reign

:22:38.:22:41.

supreme so the parliament if it wants to can abolish the Supreme

:22:42.:22:46.

Court, Kartik? Or you have a written constitution voted in by Parliament

:22:47.:22:51.

and pine and can abolish the ring constitution. Parliament, isn't that

:22:52.:22:53.

the principle that governs everything? It is, the

:22:54.:22:58.

democratically elected... Dictatorship! Part of our government

:22:59.:23:02.

so it can legislate for these things. There are checks and

:23:03.:23:07.

balances in the system, similar to the US. The rule of law is obviously

:23:08.:23:15.

one of those and we have seen judicial reviews since the 70s form

:23:16.:23:21.

part of that. This is dramatic and more important but in a sense it is

:23:22.:23:26.

a continuation of the travel we have seen. Parliament can legislate and

:23:27.:23:30.

create a Bill of Rights which it has talked about many times. It could

:23:31.:23:35.

legislate to change Royal prerogatives, put it on the statue

:23:36.:23:40.

books. It did it with a fixed term parliaments acts that changed Royal

:23:41.:23:43.

Prerogative into an act of Parliament. The ability to call an

:23:44.:23:49.

election. The monarch's right to dissolve parliament. It caused

:23:50.:23:54.

confusion in OK you might want to amend it further you cannot turn it

:23:55.:23:58.

back into a Royal Prerogative. You could repeal the act. And give the

:23:59.:24:06.

Prime Minister the power to call the election. Constitutional authorities

:24:07.:24:10.

are divided on what you would do in replacing a Royal Prerogative. In

:24:11.:24:15.

the long-term, would we be better off trying to write it down? I think

:24:16.:24:20.

it is written and codified in a lot of places. There is value in

:24:21.:24:25.

consolidating it, even in a guidance document, which we saw with the

:24:26.:24:30.

Cabinet manual. Before the election, when we expected a hung parliament?

:24:31.:24:37.

Exactly and the purpose was to make sure constitutional decisions would

:24:38.:24:41.

not decided by people on Newsnight in the middle of the night to make

:24:42.:24:45.

sure we have some sort of authority that could speak to it. I think you

:24:46.:24:51.

are seeing awareness of constitutional issues and a desire

:24:52.:24:54.

for more clarity, but you wouldn't have the debates we are having about

:24:55.:24:59.

who is the authority and what is the process by which we challenge it.

:25:00.:25:04.

Constitutions are not fixed, they have to change all the time. We

:25:05.:25:08.

would still face those same issues. Thanks.

:25:09.:25:11.

There's been more bloodshed in Aleppo today with the Syrian

:25:12.:25:13.

regime barrel bombing a district in the east of the city -

:25:14.:25:16.

and its forces advancing further into rebel territory.

:25:17.:25:18.

Now if you've been watching us regularly, you'll know we've been

:25:19.:25:21.

trying to keep in touch with citizens in Aleppo,

:25:22.:25:23.

as the siege there enters its most intense and brutal phase.

:25:24.:25:27.

That is not always easy, but today, we can show you what life

:25:28.:25:30.

is like for some of the local journalists and cameramen

:25:31.:25:32.

who are filming the destruction of their own home town.

:25:33.:25:35.

The images can often be difficult to watch, let alone gather.

:25:36.:25:40.

And news networks don't even broadcast the worst of it.

:25:41.:25:44.

In this report, we've been speaking to two of the citizen-journalists

:25:45.:25:46.

It was filmed by Milad Al Shehabi in eastern Aleppo and edited

:25:47.:25:50.

this film has some disturbing images.

:25:51.:26:18.

Filmed in high-definition, the tragedy in Aleppo

:26:19.:26:22.

With the besieged rebel-controlled part of the city considered too

:26:23.:26:30.

dangerous for Westerners, it's a network of local activists

:26:31.:26:33.

and citizen journalists, called the Aleppo Media Centre,

:26:34.:26:39.

who risk their lives to film these scenes that have been

:26:40.:26:42.

The images of Aleppo by drones showing the miles and miles

:26:43.:27:05.

of devastation are both breathtaking and heartbreaking.

:27:06.:27:09.

Most of them are filmed by this man, Hasan Katan.

:27:10.:27:12.

A law student when the conflict erupted, he's now a film-maker

:27:13.:27:16.

Every shot he takes brings him a mix of emotions.

:27:17.:27:53.

Mustafa al-Sarout used to be a tailor before the revolution.

:27:54.:27:57.

He now also works as a cameraman for the Aleppo Media Centre.

:27:58.:28:03.

His footage of five-year-old Omran Daqneesh sitting

:28:04.:28:04.

dazed in the back of an ambulance went worldwide.

:28:05.:28:31.

But there are many Omrans in Aleppo and each time there's an attack,

:28:32.:28:35.

the journalists are torn about how to behave.

:28:36.:29:15.

The group upload and share the videos they film.

:29:16.:29:18.

Despite the lack of action by the international community

:29:19.:29:21.

so far, they still hope their images can and will make a difference.

:29:22.:29:52.

That's the question at the heart of the latest government inspired

:29:53.:29:59.

report into integration - ethnic, religious and social.

:30:00.:30:01.

It was produced by Dame Louise Casey.

:30:02.:30:02.

She said she expected to find discrimination and disadvantage

:30:03.:30:07.

feeding a sense of grievance and unfairness, and isolating

:30:08.:30:09.

certain communities from the best opportunities.

:30:10.:30:14.

But while she did find that, she was also aware of cultural

:30:15.:30:17.

and religious practices that are holding back some citizens

:30:18.:30:20.

in certain communities, particularly the Muslim ones.

:30:21.:30:23.

Women and children are sometimes victims of regressive

:30:24.:30:29.

Now this is not the first report into this issue -

:30:30.:30:33.

but it is interesting to see how they've evolved.

:30:34.:30:36.

Back in 1981 there were riots in Brixton.

:30:37.:30:38.

Race was an issue and out of the wreckage came

:30:39.:30:41.

At that stage, the concern was what British society was doing wrong.

:30:42.:30:48.

Lord Scarman talked of inner-city decline, his most memorable finding

:30:49.:30:53.

was to fault the disproportionate and indiscriminate use of police

:30:54.:30:56.

And, he said, positive discrimination to tackle

:30:57.:31:00.

racial disadvantage was a price worth paying.

:31:01.:31:04.

Scroll forward to the year 2001, and there were riots

:31:05.:31:07.

in Oldham and Burnley, prompting more than one report.

:31:08.:31:11.

The Cantle report came out in 2006, now putting weight

:31:12.:31:17.

on what the minority communities might do.

:31:18.:31:19.

It said different communities lived parallel lives.

:31:20.:31:23.

It warned that single faith schools might raise deeper divisions.

:31:24.:31:26.

And it even suggested that immigrants could take an oath

:31:27.:31:28.

Well, a decade of immigration on, with huge numbers of Poles coming

:31:29.:31:38.

in and growth of over a million in the Muslim population too,

:31:39.:31:41.

concerns over parallel lives have increased.

:31:42.:31:44.

Today's report has tougher language on how minorities must fit in.

:31:45.:31:48.

There's an emphasis on English language classes

:31:49.:31:51.

And women's emancipation from "regressive cultural practices".

:31:52.:31:57.

And the Casey report says schools should promote British

:31:58.:32:01.

values to help build integration and tolerance.

:32:02.:32:05.

Well, to some extent you might caricature the way the debate has

:32:06.:32:08.

evolved over the years, as progression from a worry

:32:09.:32:11.

about "No Dogs, No Blacks, No Irish" to certain

:32:12.:32:14.

groups saying "we don't want to go to your pub anyway".

:32:15.:32:20.

I'm joined now by Sarah Hewitt, Headteacher at

:32:21.:32:21.

Anderton Park Primary in Birmingham - she received death threats

:32:22.:32:24.

after her school was inspected as part of the Trojan Horse scandal,

:32:25.:32:33.

from Manchester Amina Lone, Co-director of the social

:32:34.:32:36.

foundation which is an anti poverty think tank.

:32:37.:32:39.

And Tadeusz Stenzel Chair of Trustees, Federation

:32:40.:32:41.

First how do you respond to the idea that we seem to be asking migrants

:32:42.:32:55.

to fit in more rather than working out what we do to help them. Perhaps

:32:56.:33:00.

not as binary as I have suggested. How do you respond to that, is that

:33:01.:33:06.

a fair thing for a society to start doing? I welcome the report and

:33:07.:33:10.

think it has some interesting findings, not least saying we want

:33:11.:33:14.

to have a new community investment programme and more English classes.

:33:15.:33:20.

All a good thing. But you cannot say that without resources to back it,

:33:21.:33:24.

and the last government significantly cut adult education

:33:25.:33:27.

investment. I think the responsibility is on society and

:33:28.:33:33.

individuals as we are all part of the same thing. We've got to work

:33:34.:33:41.

together and live together, it is not about other people, Muslims or

:33:42.:33:48.

immigrants or minority communities actually having to just change but

:33:49.:33:54.

also about society saying what are British values, what do they mean

:33:55.:33:57.

and how did they shape our future as a country. Some of this is addressed

:33:58.:34:03.

at the Polish community as well, and that has been a conspicuous

:34:04.:34:09.

immigration of the last decade. There have been problems obviously

:34:10.:34:16.

but I agree it is a lack of education causing a lot of the

:34:17.:34:20.

problems. I think we have reduced the amount of training for

:34:21.:34:27.

immigrants and their living in a separate world which even in the

:34:28.:34:34.

Polish community, which is widely distributed, and not so concentrated

:34:35.:34:37.

on some of the others throughout the UK. The people live here, they eat

:34:38.:34:44.

here but they live a life through the media, through Poland. They

:34:45.:34:51.

watch Polish TV and Polish football games. But if the British Government

:34:52.:34:56.

paid for English second language courses, do you think demand would

:34:57.:35:06.

be there? It is always a problem, you can take the voice to the water

:35:07.:35:11.

but cannot make it drink. It is a problem that I have come across.

:35:12.:35:16.

This seems to be a reluctance to learn more than is absolutely

:35:17.:35:22.

necessary to get by work. But there is an impending problem whether

:35:23.:35:26.

children are now being educated in English schools and in the near

:35:27.:35:29.

future the parents and children will not be able to communicate with

:35:30.:35:35.

another. One was no English and the other was no Polish! I will ask you

:35:36.:35:43.

all to give us three practical steps in a moment. Pressed to think that

:35:44.:35:49.

it is OK to say we need you to try a bit harder in your communities, you

:35:50.:35:56.

have to oppose regressive policies with women stuck at home. I think

:35:57.:36:01.

that is fair to say, one of the things that we should be proud of in

:36:02.:36:12.

the UK, sometimes I feel that we tell parents, we interviewed new

:36:13.:36:22.

parents and we say this is a British school and we follow British law, we

:36:23.:36:28.

have the equality act and we tell him -- tell them what that means.

:36:29.:36:37.

And you get lower back from that? Sometimes. People sometimes say that

:36:38.:36:44.

is your opinion and I say yes but that is the law as well, gay people

:36:45.:36:49.

are also equal, disabled, able-bodied, the whole thing. You

:36:50.:36:54.

cannot bit -- you cannot pick the bits of the equality act that you

:36:55.:36:58.

like and leave the rest. I'm happy to say that, but I just wonder who

:36:59.:37:03.

else should be saying that to families. Because this should be an

:37:04.:37:08.

expectation for all British citizens and visitors to Britain that this is

:37:09.:37:11.

what we expect and how we expect them to behave. And that gets you to

:37:12.:37:17.

the idea of an oath, I do not know if you are in favour. I'm not a

:37:18.:37:25.

great fan of that because I think any kind of declaration is only

:37:26.:37:29.

effective if there is a sanction if you fall foul of it. You have not

:37:30.:37:35.

respected British values, you get a ?50 ticket? And also a lot of the

:37:36.:37:41.

British population is homophobic or misogynistic, so it should be an

:37:42.:37:45.

oath for everyone. I would like a practical suggestion from each of

:37:46.:37:48.

you, what would be the most important thing to do? We need to

:37:49.:37:53.

reconstruct British values so they are reflective of the country as it

:37:54.:37:57.

is changing and also provide support. That point about people in

:37:58.:38:02.

schools or other institutions having British values and not

:38:03.:38:07.

discriminating is right. But I know people who have been working in

:38:08.:38:10.

schools when families have taken girls are the sports classes and the

:38:11.:38:13.

school has allowed it. So we have got to be consistent. Support for

:38:14.:38:21.

staff in public sector errors. Maybe we should just cut off Polish

:38:22.:38:26.

television stations so they have to watch the BBC! We tried to influence

:38:27.:38:30.

the Polish government to produce programmes aimed at the Polish

:38:31.:38:38.

people living here in the UK. That they get politics from Poland but we

:38:39.:38:42.

want to represent what is happening here. My suggestion is that we need

:38:43.:38:45.

to teach people their responsibilities. They all know

:38:46.:38:50.

their rights but very few, there's little emphasis put

:38:51.:38:53.

responsibilities. That would be important to do that. We're going

:38:54.:38:57.

right back to the thrust of the KC approach. Absolutely. Give me one

:38:58.:39:05.

practical idea. I think it needs to come from the government, we need to

:39:06.:39:09.

stop the fragmentation of schools. In what way? We are in an unusual

:39:10.:39:15.

situation where we have all kinds of schools and this is a bit

:39:16.:39:18.

fragmented. The government have lifted a cap on faith schools. This

:39:19.:39:24.

report is about integration and the opposite to that is segregation and

:39:25.:39:27.

you could argue that faith schools segregate. Anything that is about

:39:28.:39:32.

segregation we need to rethink. We need to stop people being creamed

:39:33.:39:39.

off to go to grammar schools, that is the opposite of integration. And

:39:40.:39:47.

practical homes, be passionate about equality in the homes, speak about

:39:48.:39:53.

that and be passionate about that. Children are brilliant at this and

:39:54.:39:57.

in my school children are passionate about the quality. And the parents

:39:58.:40:01.

tell me that their daughters have given them a hard time because for

:40:02.:40:05.

example they said that their son should have the biggest bedroom and

:40:06.:40:08.

the girls give them what for about that. So children are an amazing

:40:09.:40:14.

tool for changing the mindset of parents. And that is huge, mindsets

:40:15.:40:21.

change and behaviours, they change the world. Parallel lines is the

:40:22.:40:26.

phrase people have been using, what is it that makes people want to sort

:40:27.:40:37.

themselves into ethnic areas? I think people feel comfortable with

:40:38.:40:41.

someone they identify with, whether culturally, with clothing or

:40:42.:40:45.

language. When I go to my parents home in Birmingham, the local

:40:46.:40:53.

supermarket is full of Muslims on Christmas Eve buying up all the

:40:54.:40:58.

Christmas stock. So it is more complex. I am a Muslim woman, I have

:40:59.:41:04.

children, I do not identify as needing to be emancipated, it is a

:41:05.:41:08.

diverse community so we need to be cautious about labelling the whole

:41:09.:41:13.

community. Thank you very much. That is all but we have time for this

:41:14.:41:15.

evening. But before we go, Sotheby's

:41:16.:41:16.

announced today that it was creating a brand new art forensics unit

:41:17.:41:19.

to detect fakes, following its failure to spot

:41:20.:41:21.

an ?8.4m forged painting. We thought we'd give it -

:41:22.:41:23.

and you - its first big test. What follows is a series of 19th

:41:24.:41:26.

century masterpieces - but mixed amongst them are a couple

:41:27.:41:29.

of numbers our producers See if you can spot the fakes -

:41:30.:41:31.

and then check the @BBCNewsnight twitter feed to find out

:41:32.:41:37.

if you were right.

:41:38.:41:40.

With Evan Davis. Europe takes another blow as Renzi resigns. Plus the government takes on the judiciary in the Supreme Court and why can't Britain's communities integrate?


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