The Forgotten Shipwreck Newsnight


The Forgotten Shipwreck

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On one April night this year, hundreds of migrants drowned

:00:00.:00:09.

in the Mediterranean as a trawler overloaded with human

:00:10.:00:11.

The story of what happened that night has not been told, until now.

:00:12.:00:33.

As far as we can tell, there has been no official investigation into

:00:34.:00:37.

the sinking of the ship this spring in the eastern Mediterranean.

:00:38.:00:40.

There are survivors living in refugee centres

:00:41.:00:43.

And that evidence points to not just mass

:00:44.:00:48.

killing, but something darker than that.

:00:49.:00:50.

Also tonight, we are learning more about the Prime

:00:51.:00:56.

People talk about the sort of Brexit that there is going to be.

:00:57.:01:04.

Actually, we want a red, white and blue Brexit.

:01:05.:01:13.

We really are learning more about it.

:01:14.:01:14.

And we have a former Brexit Secretary to offer his opinions.

:01:15.:01:16.

Kellyanne, I just retweeted the best tweet.

:01:17.:01:18.

I mean, wow, what a great, smart tweet.

:01:19.:01:21.

What does the Twitter corporation think about Trump?

:01:22.:01:27.

He's been able to share that kind of authentic nature on Twitter

:01:28.:01:30.

in a way that a lot of politicians maybe haven't done so in the past,

:01:31.:01:34.

News has often reached us over the last couple of years,

:01:35.:01:46.

of migrants drowning in large numbers in the Mediterranean.

:01:47.:01:48.

Their overloaded boats toppling over at the slightest disturbance.

:01:49.:01:52.

Who could forget the picture of Aylan Kurdi that brought

:01:53.:01:55.

The emotions that most of us have felt at these heart-rending

:01:56.:02:02.

tragedies probably include sadness, distress, motivation to help,

:02:03.:02:04.

Tonight, we have a story to make you angry.

:02:05.:02:10.

The tale of what we believe to be the biggest migrant shipwreck

:02:11.:02:13.

of 2016 and the criminal behaviour that caused needless deaths.

:02:14.:02:15.

Over 500 people are believed to have died on one night in April,

:02:16.:02:21.

which is about twice the entire number of people who've been killed

:02:22.:02:24.

in passenger airline crashes anywhere in the world this year.

:02:25.:02:26.

But those deaths in the Mediterranean cannot really

:02:27.:02:30.

be called an accident, and there has been no investigation

:02:31.:02:32.

Except one, John Sweeney, with our producer James Clayton

:02:33.:02:36.

and in conjunction with Reuters, decided to look at the

:02:37.:02:39.

In the 21st-century, the Mediterranean Sea is fast becoming a

:02:40.:02:58.

mass grave. This year so far, 4700 people have drowned on the open sea.

:02:59.:03:03.

Very few sinkings have been properly investigated. Until now. What we

:03:04.:03:11.

believe is the worst sinking of 2016 Took Place at night at sea. There is

:03:12.:03:18.

no footage. We have hurt to build a picture from the survivors scattered

:03:19.:03:23.

across Europe. It is a story of grief. Frustration. You think the

:03:24.:03:33.

authorities have done enough to investigate this tragedy? No.

:03:34.:03:39.

Accusations of murder. Do you think this is murder? Yes, this is murder.

:03:40.:03:48.

An international inaction. And there has been no investigation worthy of

:03:49.:03:51.

the game, are you comfortable with that? Not really, no. This is the

:03:52.:03:59.

story of the forgotten shipwreck. On April the 16th this year, a small

:04:00.:04:05.

fishing boat was picked up off the Greek coast. On 37 survivors. Every

:04:06.:04:14.

night I'm not sleeping because I remember the boat accident. They

:04:15.:04:23.

said they had come from Libya, and so did the UNHCR. Perhaps as many as

:04:24.:04:29.

500 people drowned, a few days ago, we do not know exactly when. When a

:04:30.:04:33.

large ship went down between Libya and Italy. But when Stephen Gray

:04:34.:04:42.

from Reuters talked to survivors he started to question the official

:04:43.:04:46.

version. There was their language, the way they were holding back about

:04:47.:04:50.

details, the way they were vague about certain things. They had all

:04:51.:04:56.

apparently lost their phones and could not remember who for example

:04:57.:04:59.

they paid money to to get on this voyage. The dates they would giving

:05:00.:05:06.

did not add up. The details of how they apparently simply drifted from

:05:07.:05:09.

the scene of this disaster off the coast of Libya to a rescue point

:05:10.:05:16.

halfway between Greece and Italy, that did not seem to me to add up.

:05:17.:05:24.

Together with Reuters, Newsnight set out to find out what really

:05:25.:05:33.

happened. This man is one of the survivors. He had hoped to build a

:05:34.:05:37.

new life in Europe with his wife and baby girl. His wife and daughter and

:05:38.:05:50.

himself and 200 other migrants were loaded off a small fishing feeder

:05:51.:05:56.

boat onto a deep sea trawler, which would take them across the

:05:57.:05:59.

Mediterranean to Italy but the trawler was already crammed with 300

:06:00.:06:00.

people. These two were on the top deck of

:06:01.:06:58.

the trawler when it capsized. They made it to France.

:06:59.:07:40.

Overloaded boats can sync all too easily. At least this boat capsized

:07:41.:07:49.

in daylight when migrants crowded to one side after spotting an Italian

:07:50.:07:53.

naval ship. The trawler in our story sank at night. The physics of the

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simpering is simple. 500 people weighing roughly ten tonnes. If ten

:08:01.:08:05.

tonnes of cargo ship suddenly, a boat can capsize.

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He was the last person that this man was able to say. How many were in

:08:55.:09:03.

the water when the feeder boat left? Muaz is housed in a refugee centre.

:09:04.:09:46.

He is one of the lucky ones. Out of almost 100 in the water, almost all

:09:47.:09:52.

were abandoned. As far as we can tell there has been no official

:09:53.:09:55.

investigation into the sinking of this ship in the eastern

:09:56.:10:01.

Mediterranean. But the evidence is available. There are survivors

:10:02.:10:05.

living in refugee centres like this one behind me and the evidence

:10:06.:10:09.

points to not just mass killing, but something darker than that. Murder.

:10:10.:10:15.

There is the crucial fact that everybody has overlooked, an error

:10:16.:10:18.

that has prevented relatives of the dead getting any justice. The

:10:19.:10:23.

survivors told everyone they came from Libya, but that was alive, the

:10:24.:10:28.

boat left not from Libya, but here, in Egypt. Was the story true?

:10:29.:10:52.

Libya is in chaos, but Egypt is firmly under the heel of its strong

:10:53.:10:59.

man president, so there is a big question. What is Egypt doing to

:11:00.:11:04.

police its people smugglers? Not much, it seems. The migrants bought

:11:05.:11:13.

their tickets in Cairo from brokers. 500 people on the boat, many at

:11:14.:11:21.

$2000 each. That could be as much as $1 million gross. Even after

:11:22.:11:24.

expenses, the smugglers are making a killing. I travelled to a village in

:11:25.:11:31.

the Nile delta where nine boys on the boat came from. Too many people

:11:32.:11:46.

in Europe, a migrant boat sinking may seem like another grim

:11:47.:11:51.

statistic. For this woman, it was far, far worse than that. The list

:11:52.:11:58.

of the missing from her village starts with her own son.

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When you hear about these mass sinkings, you hear about Libya, not

:12:32.:12:39.

Egypt. But our investigation has shown that as many as 150 Egyptians

:12:40.:12:45.

may have died in this tragedy. The Egyptian authorities have not

:12:46.:12:52.

investigated, so you might well ask, why is that? Have the Egyptians

:12:53.:12:58.

Egyptian authorities got something to hide?

:12:59.:13:54.

Because there has been no full enquiry, she believes that her son

:13:55.:14:04.

may still be alive. This is what we understand of the doomed voyage.

:14:05.:14:09.

Most migrants leave the beach at Alexandria at night in small boats

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like these. They are picked up by the smugglers' feeder boat which

:14:15.:14:18.

sails west to meet the trawler in international waters. It is when the

:14:19.:14:23.

feeder boat transfers the human cargo to the trawler that disaster

:14:24.:14:30.

strikes. Whilst at sea, we believe, around 190 Somalis, 150 Ethiopians

:14:31.:14:36.

and 160 Egyptians and others from Sudan and Eritrea, roughly 500

:14:37.:14:42.

people in all. This is Miami Beach, Alexandria, where some of the

:14:43.:14:46.

survivors said their voyage started. Over there, that place with a little

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shack, that is a military post. The idea that hundreds of migrants could

:14:54.:14:59.

leave this place in a police state like Egypt without being seen? Well,

:15:00.:15:01.

that's a little far-fetched. an in the evidence linking the

:15:02.:15:11.

disaster to two smugglers comes from this man. He is the father of an

:15:12.:15:20.

Egyptian victim. He went to the police and they carried out a

:15:21.:15:24.

curious investigation which concluded there had been no

:15:25.:15:27.

manslaughter or murder, but only financial fraud. The police have

:15:28.:15:32.

said this is a fraud case. Is that right?

:15:33.:15:43.

Do you think the authorities have done enough to investigate this

:15:44.:15:45.

tragedy? The alleged leaders of the smuggling

:15:46.:16:14.

gangs are known by their nicknames, the doctor. Abdul filmed one of the

:16:15.:16:19.

alleged smugglers talking. He claims that the man was sent by the other

:16:20.:16:21.

man. We wanted to ask this man, Al-Bougy,

:16:22.:16:55.

about his alleged role in the sinking. But no one was in. We were

:16:56.:17:02.

told that he was on the run. The alleged smuggler known as the doctor

:17:03.:17:07.

did not return calls made by our investigation. Back in Cairo, we set

:17:08.:17:14.

out to track down a Somali broker and we wanted to challenge him about

:17:15.:17:18.

his role in the loss of so many lives. But the secret police had

:17:19.:17:26.

other ideas. We tried to interview the Somali broker and we have been

:17:27.:17:32.

stopped by the secret police. We are not free to leave. We are waiting

:17:33.:17:37.

for a police car and they will speak to us some more. We are now being

:17:38.:17:44.

escorted to the police station. Isn't that nice? , glee, the

:17:45.:17:54.

Egyptian authorities seemed keener on preventing journalism that matter

:17:55.:17:57.

journalism than people smuggling. As a result, the mass drownings

:17:58.:18:04.

continue. In September, another overloaded vessel sank off the coast

:18:05.:18:07.

of Egypt but this time so close to the sure that the authorities were

:18:08.:18:13.

compelled to act. 200 people drowned. Had the April tragedy been

:18:14.:18:17.

properly investigated, this second mass loss of life could perhaps have

:18:18.:18:23.

been avoided. In Egypt, a spokesperson for the Minister of

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justice said if the occurrence of such a crime is proven, Egypt

:18:27.:18:31.

certainly will not hesitate to conduct the necessary investigations

:18:32.:18:36.

to uncover it and arrest the perpetrators and bring them to

:18:37.:18:41.

justice. But Egypt is not alone. Greece, the country where the

:18:42.:18:45.

survivors landed, has not investigated. No official body,

:18:46.:18:50.

national or multinational, has held anyone to account for the deaths or

:18:51.:18:54.

even opened an enquiry into the shipwreck. As well as the tragic

:18:55.:19:00.

loss of life, you're's own security is being undermined. I went to The

:19:01.:19:05.

Hague to ask the head of the European police agency why it had

:19:06.:19:11.

failed. We believe 500 people died in this, the biggest mass drowning

:19:12.:19:16.

of 20 16th and so far there has been no investigation worthy of the name.

:19:17.:19:21.

You comfortable with that? Not really. I think this is an

:19:22.:19:25.

humanitarian disaster. The absence of clear answers in this case, to be

:19:26.:19:30.

fair to the authorities involved, reflect the difficulty in getting to

:19:31.:19:34.

the heart of the story, conflicting information from the survivors and

:19:35.:19:40.

elsewhere and there are some significant investigative problems

:19:41.:19:43.

in identifying who is criminally responsible. It is an uncomfortable

:19:44.:19:48.

situation. Europol has not done an investigation because no one has

:19:49.:19:53.

complained to you. You are powerless, due? Know, when it is

:19:54.:20:00.

referred to us, we can institute a full range of intelligence sharing

:20:01.:20:02.

facilities that we have at Europol and the way that we have used in

:20:03.:20:07.

many cases to hunt down and successfully target these people

:20:08.:20:11.

smuggling organisations. In this case, there has been good work done

:20:12.:20:16.

in your investigation and I am happy and I would like to receive the file

:20:17.:20:19.

that you have found and we will look at it again and we will take it to

:20:20.:20:23.

the Greek authorities and see if there is more that we can do. If

:20:24.:20:35.

these mass sinkings are not thoroughly investigated, then three

:20:36.:20:39.

things will continue to happen. The first is that the smugglers will

:20:40.:20:43.

continue to get richer, the second is that Europe will not be able to

:20:44.:20:48.

put pressure on the host countries like here in Egypt and the third,

:20:49.:20:53.

worst of all, is that thousands of people will continue to drown. And

:20:54.:21:01.

for the people who have lost loved ones, no investigation means grief

:21:02.:21:02.

without end. We did ask the Egyptian government

:21:03.:21:09.

for an interview, but they declined. Though the Justice Department

:21:10.:21:11.

told our investigation that they have just passed new laws

:21:12.:21:13.

against illegal migration and are determined to take

:21:14.:21:15.

action against smugglers. You can watch the Our World

:21:16.:21:19.

documentary on John Sweeney's investigation on the News Channel

:21:20.:21:22.

this Sunday at 21:30, And John Sweeney and Stephen Grey

:21:23.:21:24.

from Reuters will be taking your questions

:21:25.:21:31.

on their investigation. That's tomorrow at 1pm on the BBC

:21:32.:21:34.

Newsnight Facebook page. It may be coming out

:21:35.:21:44.

in dribs and drabs, but the government is feeding us

:21:45.:21:46.

more about the approach We have some fairly

:21:47.:21:48.

bland-sounding propositions - in today's version the Prime

:21:49.:21:51.

Minister said we are looking And you thought it was magenta

:21:52.:21:53.

that we were seeking. But slogans aside, for anyone

:21:54.:22:00.

listening to the objectives that have been set out in public of late,

:22:01.:22:03.

a relatively full picture And to add to that,

:22:04.:22:05.

the government also today conceded that it will publicly set

:22:06.:22:09.

out its plan, before The flurry of Brexit chatter

:22:10.:22:11.

was prompted by two things: the fact that Labour have tabled a Commons

:22:12.:22:17.

motion on it tomorrow, urging And secondly, leading

:22:18.:22:19.

Brexit negotiations for the European Commission,

:22:20.:22:23.

said that in effect we'll have 18 months to sort it out,

:22:24.:22:26.

and that we won't as good deal Our political editor

:22:27.:22:28.

Nick Watt is with me. On the domestic politics, Labour put

:22:29.:22:47.

down a motion, the Tories have amended it, who has won this little

:22:48.:22:54.

spat? It is a score draw all around, that averted a Tory rebellion and

:22:55.:22:58.

allows all sides to say they are claiming victory. A number of

:22:59.:23:01.

pro-European Tories were going to vote with Labour because Labour had

:23:02.:23:06.

used very colourful language to draw up a motion which would require the

:23:07.:23:09.

government to publish its Brexit plan before it triggers those

:23:10.:23:16.

Article 50 manoeuvres. The government said we will accept that

:23:17.:23:19.

Labour motion, but we will tackle on our own little bit that says that

:23:20.:23:22.

the government should be allowed to trigger Article 50 by its deadline

:23:23.:23:27.

of the end of March. I have learned this evening that it is highly

:23:28.:23:31.

likely that Labour is going to accept that motion as amended and

:23:32.:23:36.

will claim victory on two grounds, in the first place it will say thank

:23:37.:23:40.

you very much for accepting our demand that you publish your plans

:23:41.:23:44.

before you trigger Article 50. I think when we see those plans, they

:23:45.:23:49.

will be very much on the broad principle, of that 31-macro. The

:23:50.:23:54.

second thing, Labour will say we have no problem in saying that

:23:55.:23:57.

Article 50 should be triggered by the end of March because we agree

:23:58.:24:02.

with that. Everyone is converging, except potentially the Europeans.

:24:03.:24:07.

They have been setting out parameters, what has been the

:24:08.:24:11.

reaction? There was some surprise in Downing Street when it was said that

:24:12.:24:15.

if Theresa May follows her timetable then those negotiations will have to

:24:16.:24:20.

be concluded by October, 2018 and the reason for that is to have it

:24:21.:24:24.

fully ratified and signed and sealed by the time of the European

:24:25.:24:28.

Parliamentary elections in the spring of 2019. There was less

:24:29.:24:31.

surprise when he said that there could be no cherry picking and no

:24:32.:24:36.

favourable axis to the single market unless you accept the full freedoms.

:24:37.:24:40.

What the intervention showed was that once Article 50 is triggered in

:24:41.:24:47.

a legal sense, the UK has very few cards to play. But the British

:24:48.:24:51.

Government's view is once we have the French and German elections out

:24:52.:24:55.

of the way by this time next year, we will be looking towards a

:24:56.:24:59.

political deal where EU leaders will not want to leave the UK out in the

:25:00.:25:05.

cold. Thank you. Joining me now is Oliver Lachlan, former Cabinet

:25:06.:25:11.

Office minister who was briefly in charge of Brexit before Theresa May

:25:12.:25:15.

became Prime Minister. I do not understand, the government have

:25:16.:25:19.

announced something, we are going to be given the plan before Article 50,

:25:20.:25:24.

why did they wait for a Labour motion before making the

:25:25.:25:26.

announcement? There was no doubt that the government would publish

:25:27.:25:30.

some kind of paper before it started negotiating. I am not sure that it

:25:31.:25:35.

is going to tell us anything we do not know already and I do think it

:25:36.:25:40.

should. When they say publish a plan, is that like three tweets or

:25:41.:25:48.

400 pages of a White Paper? How do I know? I am sure that Whitehall will

:25:49.:25:56.

create something mellifluous and serious. I very much doubt and I

:25:57.:26:02.

hope that it won't say anything very material that has not been said

:26:03.:26:06.

already. We are clear what the outlines are, we are leaving, we are

:26:07.:26:12.

leaving the single market, we are going to have control over our own

:26:13.:26:16.

migration. If you want that, it implies you're the single market. We

:26:17.:26:20.

will be able to negotiate our own free trade deals with the rest of

:26:21.:26:29.

the word. That is pretty clear. You have a whole pile of very

:26:30.:26:32.

nitty-gritty bits of negotiating on how you deal with European arrest

:26:33.:26:35.

warrant and information exchange and you come to the big issue about

:26:36.:26:38.

trading and the truth is there is no one alive today who knows what kind

:26:39.:26:42.

of trading relationship we will end up with. You can't possibly declare

:26:43.:26:48.

a plan. The objective is clear, we want as much trade as possible.

:26:49.:26:53.

What's amazing is that you have spelt out, out of the customs union

:26:54.:26:57.

and the single market, free-trade deals with other countries, you have

:26:58.:27:02.

spelt out so much more clearly than any member of the government, why is

:27:03.:27:06.

that? Actually I don't think that is true. I have an unusual habit of

:27:07.:27:13.

reading what is produced. It has been said or implied. I thank you

:27:14.:27:18.

can infer all that. When Theresa May is asked a perfectly straightforward

:27:19.:27:21.

question, is a possible we will be making payments to the EU, everyone

:27:22.:27:27.

knows the answer is yes, David Davis has said that, she says, we want a

:27:28.:27:33.

Red, White and Blue Brexit. Why can she say yes, we would not like to

:27:34.:27:37.

make payments, but it could be inevitable? You are much clearer

:27:38.:27:41.

than she is or David Davis 's or Boris Johnson is, much clearer. On

:27:42.:27:48.

the question of payments, you don't want to pay an indefinite amount,

:27:49.:27:53.

but there are some things it would be worth paying some amounts for,

:27:54.:27:58.

particularly access to the sale of stocks and bonds and things by

:27:59.:28:02.

financial institutions in Britain. If we were not able to do that, we

:28:03.:28:08.

might lose a lot of investment in the City. I think it is very wise of

:28:09.:28:12.

the Prime Minister not to get pinned down on these things because she did

:28:13.:28:17.

not want to start fighting now and it will be quite a difficult

:28:18.:28:21.

domestic political issue, in advance of knowing what she does or does not

:28:22.:28:25.

have to give away. She doesn't want to get into a position of someone

:28:26.:28:29.

asking how much will we pay? You don't want to pay more than you need

:28:30.:28:34.

to. I think her whole instinct is to keep her cards close to her chest

:28:35.:28:43.

and I think she is right to do that and I think it is crazy for everyone

:28:44.:28:46.

else to demand more. A Red, White and Blue Brexit is simply a stall,

:28:47.:28:53.

just to be quite clear? It's a way of saying we will get the best deal

:28:54.:28:57.

that we can. That is what you ask a sensible Prime Minister to get for

:28:58.:29:01.

this country. If we have a plan and we know what we want, why are we

:29:02.:29:08.

delaying? Why don't we just invoke Article 50? White Wade four months

:29:09.:29:14.

until March. As you may know, I teamed up with some other colleagues

:29:15.:29:19.

to suggest we should not appeal to the Supreme Court. Slightly tricky

:29:20.:29:23.

thing to do, who knows what they will decide? I thought we could put

:29:24.:29:30.

a bill to Parliament, I think it is abundantly clear, I have been on

:29:31.:29:33.

programmes with John McDonnell and he was clear that Labour would vote

:29:34.:29:38.

for Article 50 and I cannot see any reason why we should not get a bill

:29:39.:29:42.

very quickly through Parliament and get a move on. There is something

:29:43.:29:46.

going on, which of course is easy for you and quite difficult inside

:29:47.:29:53.

Whitehall, there is a huge wealth of detail about a whole series of

:29:54.:29:56.

things which are not really integral to the issues we're talking about

:29:57.:30:01.

but have to be sorted out. What do you do about the Information

:30:02.:30:06.

Systems? How you deal with the kinds of cooperation on security and

:30:07.:30:08.

intelligence and policing... In a restricted time when I dealt

:30:09.:30:19.

with this I could see the ghastly prospect of those details.

:30:20.:30:24.

You would rather they had not gone to the Supreme Court because it

:30:25.:30:28.

delays everything and there is a risk the Supreme Court will

:30:29.:30:32.

potentially go further than the High Court in giving Parliament or

:30:33.:30:39.

devolved assemblies rights. I am worried about uncharted waters. If

:30:40.:30:46.

you get 11 Supreme Court judges who are very intelligent and serious

:30:47.:30:52.

people, the attacks on the judiciary from some quarters were despicable

:30:53.:30:58.

and totally wrong. The judges try to do their job and judge the law. In

:30:59.:31:03.

this area of the law is indistinct, we do not know what our constitution

:31:04.:31:07.

is, it is not written, and we ought to have one. Because we do not have

:31:08.:31:14.

a written constitution, if you ask 11th learn to people what is the

:31:15.:31:18.

Constitution? You may find out things you do not want to know and I

:31:19.:31:22.

have no idea what the result will be but I fear there may be limits on

:31:23.:31:28.

the prerogative in ways that limit future governments from taking

:31:29.:31:31.

actions that would be sensible and I don't think we need to have that but

:31:32.:31:35.

we are in the middle of the trial so it will happen. Thanks.

:31:36.:31:37.

Every three years, the OECD, an international, official body,

:31:38.:31:39.

publishes the results of its Pisa tests.

:31:40.:31:41.

they are meant to be internationally comparable tests

:31:42.:31:44.

Ministers from well-performing countries open their results

:31:45.:31:48.

envelope, look aghast for a moment, and then leap in the air with joy.

:31:49.:31:53.

Actually, it doens't work like that but the Pisa league tables often

:31:54.:31:57.

spark national panics, because half the countries

:31:58.:31:59.

The results came out today and our policy editor Chris Cook has

:32:00.:32:03.

The Pisa tests are like in -- inkblot tests with people seeing

:32:04.:32:24.

different patterns. These are sacked by students and 72 jurisdictions.

:32:25.:32:28.

What should you see in Pisa? Pisa is trying to test people'sreal-world

:32:29.:32:36.

problem-solving skills so it is giving questions about being in a

:32:37.:32:41.

supermarket and you see articles priced in different ways. What it

:32:42.:32:45.

does not test is the subject specific content knowledge you study

:32:46.:32:51.

in schools. There are not questions on the periodic table for example.

:32:52.:32:55.

There are tests that measured knowledge and you get similar

:32:56.:32:59.

patterns of knowledge for broke so it looks like whatever Pisa is

:33:00.:33:02.

measuring is something real. This year it is focused on science, a

:33:03.:33:10.

topic where Britain does well and the UK average beats the OECD

:33:11.:33:16.

average. We are in a packed with Germany, Netherlands, Australia,

:33:17.:33:21.

Germany and Korea. We are behind the leaders Canada, Estonia, Finland and

:33:22.:33:27.

Japan, and in front, Singapore. What can we learn from the countries that

:33:28.:33:33.

beat us? First some of this is about attitude and culture. Culture is

:33:34.:33:39.

important. An example is a study by a professor and colleagues looking

:33:40.:33:42.

at Canadian and Japanese students and how they respond to failure.

:33:43.:33:47.

Where Japanese students thought they had failed they were motivated to

:33:48.:33:52.

work harder compared to Canadian students, who I imagine more similar

:33:53.:33:57.

to British students and are demotivated by failure. Different

:33:58.:34:00.

ways of thinking about success and how you get there. There are things

:34:01.:34:05.

we could change more easily. There is very little time to do anything

:34:06.:34:10.

else than teaching. That has been the price force the -- for small

:34:11.:34:19.

classes. East Asia, those teachers would teach a larger class but it

:34:20.:34:23.

leaves the more room to advance their careers to prepare lessons, to

:34:24.:34:27.

work with other teachers. It is not about the student staff ratio, which

:34:28.:34:32.

is pretty much fine in England. There are parts of the results that

:34:33.:34:39.

should concern Britain. While we are better at science, we are only at

:34:40.:34:43.

the OECD average in reading and maths. We have not really improved

:34:44.:34:49.

in the last ten years. Finally, when you look at the UK average it hides

:34:50.:34:55.

important disparities between the performances of the four home

:34:56.:35:02.

nations. England is on 512 points for science, 19 above the OECD

:35:03.:35:08.

average. It puts it six months of school time ahead of Northern

:35:09.:35:13.

Ireland, and Scotland, which is four points up. But England is the best

:35:14.:35:18.

part of the year ahead of Wales, eight points below the OECD average

:35:19.:35:22.

in that gap is driven by the fact that middle-class and rich people in

:35:23.:35:26.

particular in Wales are doing very poorly. The results may matter more

:35:27.:35:34.

elsewhere in the UK. The Scottish education minister is pondering

:35:35.:35:39.

English sounding reforms. The report from the Pisa analysis is

:35:40.:35:42.

uncomfortable reading and we should recognise that. There has been

:35:43.:35:47.

stability in maths performance but a fall in science and reading in

:35:48.:35:52.

Scotland. The clearest policy prescription was aimed at England

:35:53.:35:55.

and its flirtation with new grammar schools. At the School of witchcraft

:35:56.:36:01.

and wizardry, Harry Potter and classmates were very... As they

:36:02.:36:09.

arrived they were sorted into houses. An early sorting might be

:36:10.:36:20.

appropriate for students of magic but does not work in the real world.

:36:21.:36:25.

As it happens, English schools are probably more selective than you

:36:26.:36:28.

think because of their unusual love for setting and streaming. You see

:36:29.:36:34.

an interesting pattern for England. The school system is one of the

:36:35.:36:38.

least selective across OECD countries but once you move inside

:36:39.:36:45.

schools, England is one of the most stratified. A lot of selection takes

:36:46.:36:50.

place within classes within schools and that is more difficult to deal

:36:51.:36:54.

with. Our governments should at least agree they can see one thing

:36:55.:36:58.

in the results. Things are not where we would like them to be.

:36:59.:37:01.

Donald Trump tweeted today, as he does.

:37:02.:37:04.

He said "Boeing is building a brand new 747 Air Force One

:37:05.:37:07.

for future presidents, but costs are out of control,

:37:08.:37:10.

One aerospace analyst said the tweet was "completely nonsensical

:37:11.:37:16.

But it's very difficult to adjudicate on complicated program

:37:17.:37:23.

management and military requirements questions with Twitter

:37:24.:37:24.

I tell you all this, not to talk about Trump,

:37:25.:37:28.

It's had a tough time of late, fighting for relevance as other

:37:29.:37:32.

I met up with Rob Owers this afternoon, he is one

:37:33.:37:41.

of the company's most senior people in the UK.

:37:42.:37:42.

We sat in the library at the Twitter office,

:37:43.:37:45.

which conspicuously seemed to have hardly any books.

:37:46.:37:46.

I suggested to Mr Owers, he must be pleased that Donald Trump

:37:47.:37:49.

has kept Twitter in the public eye this year.

:37:50.:37:55.

I think Donald Trump's my use of the platform has been something

:37:56.:37:58.

that has obviously driven a lot of attention.

:37:59.:38:00.

We've seen him take to Twitter to share his opinions,

:38:01.:38:02.

to be very candid, in a way that I suppose he's been able to share

:38:03.:38:05.

that authentic nature on Twitter in the way that a lot of politicians

:38:06.:38:09.

maybe haven't done so in the past at such a level.

:38:10.:38:13.

The kind of things he's been saying in rallies to his supporters around

:38:14.:38:16.

the country he is now saying via his Twitter feed

:38:17.:38:18.

A big cohort of our user base, and early adopters were of course

:38:19.:38:23.

journalists, and journalists are jumping on this every time

:38:24.:38:26.

he tweets, of course, to say, let's fact check this,

:38:27.:38:28.

let's look at it, let's see what the context is,

:38:29.:38:30.

the meaning behind it, that kind of thing.

:38:31.:38:33.

And also it's sparking debate from our users.

:38:34.:38:35.

I mean, in what sort of way, for someone who's not on Twitter,

:38:36.:38:42.

would you say you would have consumed the Brexit referendum?

:38:43.:38:44.

Every year we look at the top trends that are on Twitter.

:38:45.:38:52.

Last year, it was very much around movements that had sprung up,

:38:53.:38:55.

where people were trying to give a voice to the voiceless.

:38:56.:38:58.

Things like Black Lies Matter, Home To Vote, Refugees Welcome.

:38:59.:39:00.

2016 was a year of huge, seismic live events,

:39:01.:39:02.

so the US election, Brexit, as you just talked about.

:39:03.:39:05.

And what we've seen is where people have come to our platform

:39:06.:39:08.

They are coming onto Twitter and they are seeing both

:39:09.:39:11.

A very interesting question and a sort of big issue

:39:12.:39:15.

for our society is this one of tribes and a very divided country

:39:16.:39:18.

Howling around their same views with their same chums,

:39:19.:39:27.

Are there people who are basically being fed the same old diet

:39:28.:39:32.

We always encourage people on Twitter to follow people

:39:33.:39:35.

from both sides of an argument, to follow people you agree with

:39:36.:39:38.

But definitely when it comes to this kind of filter bubble argument

:39:39.:39:42.

that is often labelled at Twitter, I think that absolutely wrong

:39:43.:39:45.

on a number of levels, particularly around the fact

:39:46.:39:47.

Twitter, the hashtag is where Twitter originated

:39:48.:39:51.

That allows people to tap on something and to see tweets

:39:52.:39:57.

You are not going to see it filtered by one side or the other.

:39:58.:40:02.

Also, we don't have an interest here at Twitter in having

:40:03.:40:05.

any kind of algorithm that is going to affect,

:40:06.:40:07.

for you, how you see different types of content.

:40:08.:40:10.

We are not going to keep resurfacing again and again a certain type

:40:11.:40:13.

of content based on how you have interacted with it before.

:40:14.:40:16.

In the same way that maybe there were filter

:40:17.:40:21.

bubbles 20 years ago, 30 years ago, down to

:40:22.:40:24.

the newspaper you read or the TV channel you used to watch.

:40:25.:40:27.

Essentially, there are two ways of constructing a timeline.

:40:28.:40:34.

Via a computer it will direct stuff to me that it thinks I am

:40:35.:40:39.

Yours is more or less chronology of the people

:40:40.:40:42.

I wonder whether you still think the chronology works.

:40:43.:40:46.

The chronology for us is really vital because people come to Twitter

:40:47.:40:49.

to just discover what is happening in the world right now

:40:50.:40:52.

Now we're much more about news then we are about social media.

:40:53.:40:58.

We move from social media part of the App Store

:40:59.:41:00.

and the Google Place store into the news area in both of those

:41:01.:41:03.

and I think that gives an indication of where we see ourselves.

:41:04.:41:08.

One interesting aspect of this year of such interesting politics

:41:09.:41:11.

is people have said, don't use Twitter to judge what's

:41:12.:41:14.

I am guessing most of the tweets on Brexit were for Remain?

:41:15.:41:24.

On Brexit, there were definitely more tweets about Leave,

:41:25.:41:32.

talking about Leave than there were about Remain.

:41:33.:41:35.

But if you looked at the individual accounts that were tweeting

:41:36.:41:39.

about Leave or Remain, it was almost exactly 50-50,

:41:40.:41:41.

which is pretty much how it turned out in the referendum result

:41:42.:41:44.

Fake news stories have become an issue.

:41:45.:41:47.

Is Twitter the right company to start trying to decide this

:41:48.:41:49.

point needs to be removed because it is the spreading

:41:50.:41:52.

We are definitely not in the business of policing

:41:53.:41:55.

the content to that extent in terms of deciding what is true

:41:56.:41:58.

When it comes to journalism, that is not what Twitter's about.

:41:59.:42:02.

We take the issue extremely seriously.

:42:03.:42:05.

How do you take it seriously, other than to say, to flag up

:42:06.:42:08.

stories that you don't think are true?

:42:09.:42:10.

From the start we have always verified journalists and real news

:42:11.:42:12.

networks to make it clear from when you see the tweet

:42:13.:42:15.

And that is something we have done for years.

:42:16.:42:21.

We have also recently partnered with a group called

:42:22.:42:24.

the First Draft News Coalition and they are a group of news

:42:25.:42:26.

organisations and academics who are coming together to get these

:42:27.:42:29.

meaty topics around news at the moment and to look

:42:30.:42:33.

at solutions and ways we can work together so it is not tech companies

:42:34.:42:36.

policing journalism, and we can find a way to make it

:42:37.:42:39.

clear for users what is real, what isn't real, or where

:42:40.:42:42.

That is all we have time for. We will watch the debate in Parliament

:42:43.:43:00.

about Brexit tomorrow and I will be back in this chair tomorrow evening.

:43:01.:43:06.

Good night. We are in for some mild weather,

:43:07.:43:19.

certainly a change to what we have been used to in the last couple of

:43:20.:43:23.

weeks. The wind is coming in from the south and it will be

:43:24.:43:26.

particularly mild. If you

:43:27.:43:28.

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