Browse content similar to The Forgotten Shipwreck. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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On one April night this year, hundreds of migrants drowned | :00:00. | :00:09. | |
in the Mediterranean as a trawler overloaded with human | :00:10. | :00:11. | |
The story of what happened that night has not been told, until now. | :00:12. | :00:33. | |
As far as we can tell, there has been no official investigation into | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
the sinking of the ship this spring in the eastern Mediterranean. | :00:38. | :00:40. | |
There are survivors living in refugee centres | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
And that evidence points to not just mass | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
killing, but something darker than that. | :00:49. | :00:50. | |
Also tonight, we are learning more about the Prime | :00:51. | :00:56. | |
People talk about the sort of Brexit that there is going to be. | :00:57. | :01:04. | |
Actually, we want a red, white and blue Brexit. | :01:05. | :01:13. | |
We really are learning more about it. | :01:14. | :01:14. | |
And we have a former Brexit Secretary to offer his opinions. | :01:15. | :01:16. | |
Kellyanne, I just retweeted the best tweet. | :01:17. | :01:18. | |
I mean, wow, what a great, smart tweet. | :01:19. | :01:21. | |
What does the Twitter corporation think about Trump? | :01:22. | :01:27. | |
He's been able to share that kind of authentic nature on Twitter | :01:28. | :01:30. | |
in a way that a lot of politicians maybe haven't done so in the past, | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
News has often reached us over the last couple of years, | :01:35. | :01:46. | |
of migrants drowning in large numbers in the Mediterranean. | :01:47. | :01:48. | |
Their overloaded boats toppling over at the slightest disturbance. | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
Who could forget the picture of Aylan Kurdi that brought | :01:53. | :01:55. | |
The emotions that most of us have felt at these heart-rending | :01:56. | :02:02. | |
tragedies probably include sadness, distress, motivation to help, | :02:03. | :02:04. | |
Tonight, we have a story to make you angry. | :02:05. | :02:10. | |
The tale of what we believe to be the biggest migrant shipwreck | :02:11. | :02:13. | |
of 2016 and the criminal behaviour that caused needless deaths. | :02:14. | :02:15. | |
Over 500 people are believed to have died on one night in April, | :02:16. | :02:21. | |
which is about twice the entire number of people who've been killed | :02:22. | :02:24. | |
in passenger airline crashes anywhere in the world this year. | :02:25. | :02:26. | |
But those deaths in the Mediterranean cannot really | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
be called an accident, and there has been no investigation | :02:31. | :02:32. | |
Except one, John Sweeney, with our producer James Clayton | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
and in conjunction with Reuters, decided to look at the | :02:37. | :02:39. | |
In the 21st-century, the Mediterranean Sea is fast becoming a | :02:40. | :02:58. | |
mass grave. This year so far, 4700 people have drowned on the open sea. | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
Very few sinkings have been properly investigated. Until now. What we | :03:04. | :03:11. | |
believe is the worst sinking of 2016 Took Place at night at sea. There is | :03:12. | :03:18. | |
no footage. We have hurt to build a picture from the survivors scattered | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
across Europe. It is a story of grief. Frustration. You think the | :03:24. | :03:33. | |
authorities have done enough to investigate this tragedy? No. | :03:34. | :03:39. | |
Accusations of murder. Do you think this is murder? Yes, this is murder. | :03:40. | :03:48. | |
An international inaction. And there has been no investigation worthy of | :03:49. | :03:51. | |
the game, are you comfortable with that? Not really, no. This is the | :03:52. | :03:59. | |
story of the forgotten shipwreck. On April the 16th this year, a small | :04:00. | :04:05. | |
fishing boat was picked up off the Greek coast. On 37 survivors. Every | :04:06. | :04:14. | |
night I'm not sleeping because I remember the boat accident. They | :04:15. | :04:23. | |
said they had come from Libya, and so did the UNHCR. Perhaps as many as | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
500 people drowned, a few days ago, we do not know exactly when. When a | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
large ship went down between Libya and Italy. But when Stephen Gray | :04:34. | :04:42. | |
from Reuters talked to survivors he started to question the official | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
version. There was their language, the way they were holding back about | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
details, the way they were vague about certain things. They had all | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
apparently lost their phones and could not remember who for example | :04:57. | :04:59. | |
they paid money to to get on this voyage. The dates they would giving | :05:00. | :05:06. | |
did not add up. The details of how they apparently simply drifted from | :05:07. | :05:09. | |
the scene of this disaster off the coast of Libya to a rescue point | :05:10. | :05:16. | |
halfway between Greece and Italy, that did not seem to me to add up. | :05:17. | :05:24. | |
Together with Reuters, Newsnight set out to find out what really | :05:25. | :05:33. | |
happened. This man is one of the survivors. He had hoped to build a | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
new life in Europe with his wife and baby girl. His wife and daughter and | :05:38. | :05:50. | |
himself and 200 other migrants were loaded off a small fishing feeder | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
boat onto a deep sea trawler, which would take them across the | :05:57. | :05:59. | |
Mediterranean to Italy but the trawler was already crammed with 300 | :06:00. | :06:00. | |
people. These two were on the top deck of | :06:01. | :06:58. | |
the trawler when it capsized. They made it to France. | :06:59. | :07:40. | |
Overloaded boats can sync all too easily. At least this boat capsized | :07:41. | :07:49. | |
in daylight when migrants crowded to one side after spotting an Italian | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
naval ship. The trawler in our story sank at night. The physics of the | :07:54. | :08:00. | |
simpering is simple. 500 people weighing roughly ten tonnes. If ten | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
tonnes of cargo ship suddenly, a boat can capsize. | :08:06. | :08:54. | |
He was the last person that this man was able to say. How many were in | :08:55. | :09:03. | |
the water when the feeder boat left? Muaz is housed in a refugee centre. | :09:04. | :09:46. | |
He is one of the lucky ones. Out of almost 100 in the water, almost all | :09:47. | :09:52. | |
were abandoned. As far as we can tell there has been no official | :09:53. | :09:55. | |
investigation into the sinking of this ship in the eastern | :09:56. | :10:01. | |
Mediterranean. But the evidence is available. There are survivors | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
living in refugee centres like this one behind me and the evidence | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
points to not just mass killing, but something darker than that. Murder. | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
There is the crucial fact that everybody has overlooked, an error | :10:16. | :10:18. | |
that has prevented relatives of the dead getting any justice. The | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
survivors told everyone they came from Libya, but that was alive, the | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
boat left not from Libya, but here, in Egypt. Was the story true? | :10:29. | :10:52. | |
Libya is in chaos, but Egypt is firmly under the heel of its strong | :10:53. | :10:59. | |
man president, so there is a big question. What is Egypt doing to | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
police its people smugglers? Not much, it seems. The migrants bought | :11:05. | :11:13. | |
their tickets in Cairo from brokers. 500 people on the boat, many at | :11:14. | :11:21. | |
$2000 each. That could be as much as $1 million gross. Even after | :11:22. | :11:24. | |
expenses, the smugglers are making a killing. I travelled to a village in | :11:25. | :11:31. | |
the Nile delta where nine boys on the boat came from. Too many people | :11:32. | :11:46. | |
in Europe, a migrant boat sinking may seem like another grim | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
statistic. For this woman, it was far, far worse than that. The list | :11:52. | :11:58. | |
of the missing from her village starts with her own son. | :11:59. | :12:31. | |
When you hear about these mass sinkings, you hear about Libya, not | :12:32. | :12:39. | |
Egypt. But our investigation has shown that as many as 150 Egyptians | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
may have died in this tragedy. The Egyptian authorities have not | :12:46. | :12:52. | |
investigated, so you might well ask, why is that? Have the Egyptians | :12:53. | :12:58. | |
Egyptian authorities got something to hide? | :12:59. | :13:54. | |
Because there has been no full enquiry, she believes that her son | :13:55. | :14:04. | |
may still be alive. This is what we understand of the doomed voyage. | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
Most migrants leave the beach at Alexandria at night in small boats | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
like these. They are picked up by the smugglers' feeder boat which | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
sails west to meet the trawler in international waters. It is when the | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
feeder boat transfers the human cargo to the trawler that disaster | :14:24. | :14:30. | |
strikes. Whilst at sea, we believe, around 190 Somalis, 150 Ethiopians | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
and 160 Egyptians and others from Sudan and Eritrea, roughly 500 | :14:37. | :14:42. | |
people in all. This is Miami Beach, Alexandria, where some of the | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
survivors said their voyage started. Over there, that place with a little | :14:47. | :14:53. | |
shack, that is a military post. The idea that hundreds of migrants could | :14:54. | :14:59. | |
leave this place in a police state like Egypt without being seen? Well, | :15:00. | :15:01. | |
that's a little far-fetched. an in the evidence linking the | :15:02. | :15:11. | |
disaster to two smugglers comes from this man. He is the father of an | :15:12. | :15:20. | |
Egyptian victim. He went to the police and they carried out a | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
curious investigation which concluded there had been no | :15:25. | :15:27. | |
manslaughter or murder, but only financial fraud. The police have | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
said this is a fraud case. Is that right? | :15:33. | :15:43. | |
Do you think the authorities have done enough to investigate this | :15:44. | :15:45. | |
tragedy? The alleged leaders of the smuggling | :15:46. | :16:14. | |
gangs are known by their nicknames, the doctor. Abdul filmed one of the | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
alleged smugglers talking. He claims that the man was sent by the other | :16:20. | :16:21. | |
man. We wanted to ask this man, Al-Bougy, | :16:22. | :16:55. | |
about his alleged role in the sinking. But no one was in. We were | :16:56. | :17:02. | |
told that he was on the run. The alleged smuggler known as the doctor | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
did not return calls made by our investigation. Back in Cairo, we set | :17:08. | :17:14. | |
out to track down a Somali broker and we wanted to challenge him about | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
his role in the loss of so many lives. But the secret police had | :17:19. | :17:26. | |
other ideas. We tried to interview the Somali broker and we have been | :17:27. | :17:32. | |
stopped by the secret police. We are not free to leave. We are waiting | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
for a police car and they will speak to us some more. We are now being | :17:38. | :17:44. | |
escorted to the police station. Isn't that nice? , glee, the | :17:45. | :17:54. | |
Egyptian authorities seemed keener on preventing journalism that matter | :17:55. | :17:57. | |
journalism than people smuggling. As a result, the mass drownings | :17:58. | :18:04. | |
continue. In September, another overloaded vessel sank off the coast | :18:05. | :18:07. | |
of Egypt but this time so close to the sure that the authorities were | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
compelled to act. 200 people drowned. Had the April tragedy been | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
properly investigated, this second mass loss of life could perhaps have | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
been avoided. In Egypt, a spokesperson for the Minister of | :18:24. | :18:26. | |
justice said if the occurrence of such a crime is proven, Egypt | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
certainly will not hesitate to conduct the necessary investigations | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
to uncover it and arrest the perpetrators and bring them to | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
justice. But Egypt is not alone. Greece, the country where the | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
survivors landed, has not investigated. No official body, | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
national or multinational, has held anyone to account for the deaths or | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
even opened an enquiry into the shipwreck. As well as the tragic | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
loss of life, you're's own security is being undermined. I went to The | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
Hague to ask the head of the European police agency why it had | :19:06. | :19:11. | |
failed. We believe 500 people died in this, the biggest mass drowning | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
of 20 16th and so far there has been no investigation worthy of the name. | :19:17. | :19:21. | |
You comfortable with that? Not really. I think this is an | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
humanitarian disaster. The absence of clear answers in this case, to be | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
fair to the authorities involved, reflect the difficulty in getting to | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
the heart of the story, conflicting information from the survivors and | :19:35. | :19:40. | |
elsewhere and there are some significant investigative problems | :19:41. | :19:43. | |
in identifying who is criminally responsible. It is an uncomfortable | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
situation. Europol has not done an investigation because no one has | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
complained to you. You are powerless, due? Know, when it is | :19:54. | :20:00. | |
referred to us, we can institute a full range of intelligence sharing | :20:01. | :20:02. | |
facilities that we have at Europol and the way that we have used in | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
many cases to hunt down and successfully target these people | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
smuggling organisations. In this case, there has been good work done | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
in your investigation and I am happy and I would like to receive the file | :20:17. | :20:19. | |
that you have found and we will look at it again and we will take it to | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
the Greek authorities and see if there is more that we can do. If | :20:24. | :20:35. | |
these mass sinkings are not thoroughly investigated, then three | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
things will continue to happen. The first is that the smugglers will | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
continue to get richer, the second is that Europe will not be able to | :20:44. | :20:48. | |
put pressure on the host countries like here in Egypt and the third, | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
worst of all, is that thousands of people will continue to drown. And | :20:54. | :21:01. | |
for the people who have lost loved ones, no investigation means grief | :21:02. | :21:02. | |
without end. We did ask the Egyptian government | :21:03. | :21:09. | |
for an interview, but they declined. Though the Justice Department | :21:10. | :21:11. | |
told our investigation that they have just passed new laws | :21:12. | :21:13. | |
against illegal migration and are determined to take | :21:14. | :21:15. | |
action against smugglers. You can watch the Our World | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
documentary on John Sweeney's investigation on the News Channel | :21:20. | :21:22. | |
this Sunday at 21:30, And John Sweeney and Stephen Grey | :21:23. | :21:24. | |
from Reuters will be taking your questions | :21:25. | :21:31. | |
on their investigation. That's tomorrow at 1pm on the BBC | :21:32. | :21:34. | |
Newsnight Facebook page. It may be coming out | :21:35. | :21:44. | |
in dribs and drabs, but the government is feeding us | :21:45. | :21:46. | |
more about the approach We have some fairly | :21:47. | :21:48. | |
bland-sounding propositions - in today's version the Prime | :21:49. | :21:51. | |
Minister said we are looking And you thought it was magenta | :21:52. | :21:53. | |
that we were seeking. But slogans aside, for anyone | :21:54. | :22:00. | |
listening to the objectives that have been set out in public of late, | :22:01. | :22:03. | |
a relatively full picture And to add to that, | :22:04. | :22:05. | |
the government also today conceded that it will publicly set | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
out its plan, before The flurry of Brexit chatter | :22:10. | :22:11. | |
was prompted by two things: the fact that Labour have tabled a Commons | :22:12. | :22:17. | |
motion on it tomorrow, urging And secondly, leading | :22:18. | :22:19. | |
Brexit negotiations for the European Commission, | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
said that in effect we'll have 18 months to sort it out, | :22:24. | :22:26. | |
and that we won't as good deal Our political editor | :22:27. | :22:28. | |
Nick Watt is with me. On the domestic politics, Labour put | :22:29. | :22:47. | |
down a motion, the Tories have amended it, who has won this little | :22:48. | :22:54. | |
spat? It is a score draw all around, that averted a Tory rebellion and | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
allows all sides to say they are claiming victory. A number of | :22:59. | :23:01. | |
pro-European Tories were going to vote with Labour because Labour had | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
used very colourful language to draw up a motion which would require the | :23:07. | :23:09. | |
government to publish its Brexit plan before it triggers those | :23:10. | :23:16. | |
Article 50 manoeuvres. The government said we will accept that | :23:17. | :23:19. | |
Labour motion, but we will tackle on our own little bit that says that | :23:20. | :23:22. | |
the government should be allowed to trigger Article 50 by its deadline | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
of the end of March. I have learned this evening that it is highly | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
likely that Labour is going to accept that motion as amended and | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
will claim victory on two grounds, in the first place it will say thank | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
you very much for accepting our demand that you publish your plans | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
before you trigger Article 50. I think when we see those plans, they | :23:45. | :23:49. | |
will be very much on the broad principle, of that 31-macro. The | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
second thing, Labour will say we have no problem in saying that | :23:55. | :23:57. | |
Article 50 should be triggered by the end of March because we agree | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
with that. Everyone is converging, except potentially the Europeans. | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
They have been setting out parameters, what has been the | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
reaction? There was some surprise in Downing Street when it was said that | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
if Theresa May follows her timetable then those negotiations will have to | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
be concluded by October, 2018 and the reason for that is to have it | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
fully ratified and signed and sealed by the time of the European | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
Parliamentary elections in the spring of 2019. There was less | :24:29. | :24:31. | |
surprise when he said that there could be no cherry picking and no | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
favourable axis to the single market unless you accept the full freedoms. | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
What the intervention showed was that once Article 50 is triggered in | :24:41. | :24:47. | |
a legal sense, the UK has very few cards to play. But the British | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
Government's view is once we have the French and German elections out | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
of the way by this time next year, we will be looking towards a | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
political deal where EU leaders will not want to leave the UK out in the | :25:00. | :25:05. | |
cold. Thank you. Joining me now is Oliver Lachlan, former Cabinet | :25:06. | :25:11. | |
Office minister who was briefly in charge of Brexit before Theresa May | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
became Prime Minister. I do not understand, the government have | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
announced something, we are going to be given the plan before Article 50, | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
why did they wait for a Labour motion before making the | :25:25. | :25:26. | |
announcement? There was no doubt that the government would publish | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
some kind of paper before it started negotiating. I am not sure that it | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
is going to tell us anything we do not know already and I do think it | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
should. When they say publish a plan, is that like three tweets or | :25:41. | :25:48. | |
400 pages of a White Paper? How do I know? I am sure that Whitehall will | :25:49. | :25:56. | |
create something mellifluous and serious. I very much doubt and I | :25:57. | :26:02. | |
hope that it won't say anything very material that has not been said | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
already. We are clear what the outlines are, we are leaving, we are | :26:07. | :26:12. | |
leaving the single market, we are going to have control over our own | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
migration. If you want that, it implies you're the single market. We | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
will be able to negotiate our own free trade deals with the rest of | :26:21. | :26:29. | |
the word. That is pretty clear. You have a whole pile of very | :26:30. | :26:32. | |
nitty-gritty bits of negotiating on how you deal with European arrest | :26:33. | :26:35. | |
warrant and information exchange and you come to the big issue about | :26:36. | :26:38. | |
trading and the truth is there is no one alive today who knows what kind | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
of trading relationship we will end up with. You can't possibly declare | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
a plan. The objective is clear, we want as much trade as possible. | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
What's amazing is that you have spelt out, out of the customs union | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
and the single market, free-trade deals with other countries, you have | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
spelt out so much more clearly than any member of the government, why is | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
that? Actually I don't think that is true. I have an unusual habit of | :27:07. | :27:13. | |
reading what is produced. It has been said or implied. I thank you | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
can infer all that. When Theresa May is asked a perfectly straightforward | :27:19. | :27:21. | |
question, is a possible we will be making payments to the EU, everyone | :27:22. | :27:27. | |
knows the answer is yes, David Davis has said that, she says, we want a | :27:28. | :27:33. | |
Red, White and Blue Brexit. Why can she say yes, we would not like to | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
make payments, but it could be inevitable? You are much clearer | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
than she is or David Davis 's or Boris Johnson is, much clearer. On | :27:42. | :27:48. | |
the question of payments, you don't want to pay an indefinite amount, | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
but there are some things it would be worth paying some amounts for, | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
particularly access to the sale of stocks and bonds and things by | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
financial institutions in Britain. If we were not able to do that, we | :28:03. | :28:08. | |
might lose a lot of investment in the City. I think it is very wise of | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
the Prime Minister not to get pinned down on these things because she did | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
not want to start fighting now and it will be quite a difficult | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
domestic political issue, in advance of knowing what she does or does not | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
have to give away. She doesn't want to get into a position of someone | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
asking how much will we pay? You don't want to pay more than you need | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
to. I think her whole instinct is to keep her cards close to her chest | :28:35. | :28:43. | |
and I think she is right to do that and I think it is crazy for everyone | :28:44. | :28:46. | |
else to demand more. A Red, White and Blue Brexit is simply a stall, | :28:47. | :28:53. | |
just to be quite clear? It's a way of saying we will get the best deal | :28:54. | :28:57. | |
that we can. That is what you ask a sensible Prime Minister to get for | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
this country. If we have a plan and we know what we want, why are we | :29:02. | :29:08. | |
delaying? Why don't we just invoke Article 50? White Wade four months | :29:09. | :29:14. | |
until March. As you may know, I teamed up with some other colleagues | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
to suggest we should not appeal to the Supreme Court. Slightly tricky | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
thing to do, who knows what they will decide? I thought we could put | :29:24. | :29:30. | |
a bill to Parliament, I think it is abundantly clear, I have been on | :29:31. | :29:33. | |
programmes with John McDonnell and he was clear that Labour would vote | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
for Article 50 and I cannot see any reason why we should not get a bill | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
very quickly through Parliament and get a move on. There is something | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
going on, which of course is easy for you and quite difficult inside | :29:47. | :29:53. | |
Whitehall, there is a huge wealth of detail about a whole series of | :29:54. | :29:56. | |
things which are not really integral to the issues we're talking about | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
but have to be sorted out. What do you do about the Information | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
Systems? How you deal with the kinds of cooperation on security and | :30:07. | :30:08. | |
intelligence and policing... In a restricted time when I dealt | :30:09. | :30:19. | |
with this I could see the ghastly prospect of those details. | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
You would rather they had not gone to the Supreme Court because it | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
delays everything and there is a risk the Supreme Court will | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
potentially go further than the High Court in giving Parliament or | :30:33. | :30:39. | |
devolved assemblies rights. I am worried about uncharted waters. If | :30:40. | :30:46. | |
you get 11 Supreme Court judges who are very intelligent and serious | :30:47. | :30:52. | |
people, the attacks on the judiciary from some quarters were despicable | :30:53. | :30:58. | |
and totally wrong. The judges try to do their job and judge the law. In | :30:59. | :31:03. | |
this area of the law is indistinct, we do not know what our constitution | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
is, it is not written, and we ought to have one. Because we do not have | :31:08. | :31:14. | |
a written constitution, if you ask 11th learn to people what is the | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
Constitution? You may find out things you do not want to know and I | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
have no idea what the result will be but I fear there may be limits on | :31:23. | :31:28. | |
the prerogative in ways that limit future governments from taking | :31:29. | :31:31. | |
actions that would be sensible and I don't think we need to have that but | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
we are in the middle of the trial so it will happen. Thanks. | :31:36. | :31:37. | |
Every three years, the OECD, an international, official body, | :31:38. | :31:39. | |
publishes the results of its Pisa tests. | :31:40. | :31:41. | |
they are meant to be internationally comparable tests | :31:42. | :31:44. | |
Ministers from well-performing countries open their results | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
envelope, look aghast for a moment, and then leap in the air with joy. | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
Actually, it doens't work like that but the Pisa league tables often | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
spark national panics, because half the countries | :31:58. | :31:59. | |
The results came out today and our policy editor Chris Cook has | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
The Pisa tests are like in -- inkblot tests with people seeing | :32:04. | :32:24. | |
different patterns. These are sacked by students and 72 jurisdictions. | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
What should you see in Pisa? Pisa is trying to test people'sreal-world | :32:29. | :32:36. | |
problem-solving skills so it is giving questions about being in a | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
supermarket and you see articles priced in different ways. What it | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
does not test is the subject specific content knowledge you study | :32:46. | :32:51. | |
in schools. There are not questions on the periodic table for example. | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
There are tests that measured knowledge and you get similar | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
patterns of knowledge for broke so it looks like whatever Pisa is | :33:00. | :33:02. | |
measuring is something real. This year it is focused on science, a | :33:03. | :33:10. | |
topic where Britain does well and the UK average beats the OECD | :33:11. | :33:16. | |
average. We are in a packed with Germany, Netherlands, Australia, | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
Germany and Korea. We are behind the leaders Canada, Estonia, Finland and | :33:22. | :33:27. | |
Japan, and in front, Singapore. What can we learn from the countries that | :33:28. | :33:33. | |
beat us? First some of this is about attitude and culture. Culture is | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
important. An example is a study by a professor and colleagues looking | :33:40. | :33:42. | |
at Canadian and Japanese students and how they respond to failure. | :33:43. | :33:47. | |
Where Japanese students thought they had failed they were motivated to | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
work harder compared to Canadian students, who I imagine more similar | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
to British students and are demotivated by failure. Different | :33:58. | :34:00. | |
ways of thinking about success and how you get there. There are things | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
we could change more easily. There is very little time to do anything | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
else than teaching. That has been the price force the -- for small | :34:11. | :34:19. | |
classes. East Asia, those teachers would teach a larger class but it | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
leaves the more room to advance their careers to prepare lessons, to | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
work with other teachers. It is not about the student staff ratio, which | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
is pretty much fine in England. There are parts of the results that | :34:33. | :34:39. | |
should concern Britain. While we are better at science, we are only at | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
the OECD average in reading and maths. We have not really improved | :34:44. | :34:49. | |
in the last ten years. Finally, when you look at the UK average it hides | :34:50. | :34:55. | |
important disparities between the performances of the four home | :34:56. | :35:02. | |
nations. England is on 512 points for science, 19 above the OECD | :35:03. | :35:08. | |
average. It puts it six months of school time ahead of Northern | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
Ireland, and Scotland, which is four points up. But England is the best | :35:14. | :35:18. | |
part of the year ahead of Wales, eight points below the OECD average | :35:19. | :35:22. | |
in that gap is driven by the fact that middle-class and rich people in | :35:23. | :35:26. | |
particular in Wales are doing very poorly. The results may matter more | :35:27. | :35:34. | |
elsewhere in the UK. The Scottish education minister is pondering | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
English sounding reforms. The report from the Pisa analysis is | :35:40. | :35:42. | |
uncomfortable reading and we should recognise that. There has been | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
stability in maths performance but a fall in science and reading in | :35:48. | :35:52. | |
Scotland. The clearest policy prescription was aimed at England | :35:53. | :35:55. | |
and its flirtation with new grammar schools. At the School of witchcraft | :35:56. | :36:01. | |
and wizardry, Harry Potter and classmates were very... As they | :36:02. | :36:09. | |
arrived they were sorted into houses. An early sorting might be | :36:10. | :36:20. | |
appropriate for students of magic but does not work in the real world. | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
As it happens, English schools are probably more selective than you | :36:26. | :36:28. | |
think because of their unusual love for setting and streaming. You see | :36:29. | :36:34. | |
an interesting pattern for England. The school system is one of the | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
least selective across OECD countries but once you move inside | :36:39. | :36:45. | |
schools, England is one of the most stratified. A lot of selection takes | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
place within classes within schools and that is more difficult to deal | :36:51. | :36:54. | |
with. Our governments should at least agree they can see one thing | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
in the results. Things are not where we would like them to be. | :36:59. | :37:01. | |
Donald Trump tweeted today, as he does. | :37:02. | :37:04. | |
He said "Boeing is building a brand new 747 Air Force One | :37:05. | :37:07. | |
for future presidents, but costs are out of control, | :37:08. | :37:10. | |
One aerospace analyst said the tweet was "completely nonsensical | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
But it's very difficult to adjudicate on complicated program | :37:17. | :37:23. | |
management and military requirements questions with Twitter | :37:24. | :37:24. | |
I tell you all this, not to talk about Trump, | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
It's had a tough time of late, fighting for relevance as other | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
I met up with Rob Owers this afternoon, he is one | :37:33. | :37:41. | |
of the company's most senior people in the UK. | :37:42. | :37:42. | |
We sat in the library at the Twitter office, | :37:43. | :37:45. | |
which conspicuously seemed to have hardly any books. | :37:46. | :37:46. | |
I suggested to Mr Owers, he must be pleased that Donald Trump | :37:47. | :37:49. | |
has kept Twitter in the public eye this year. | :37:50. | :37:55. | |
I think Donald Trump's my use of the platform has been something | :37:56. | :37:58. | |
that has obviously driven a lot of attention. | :37:59. | :38:00. | |
We've seen him take to Twitter to share his opinions, | :38:01. | :38:02. | |
to be very candid, in a way that I suppose he's been able to share | :38:03. | :38:05. | |
that authentic nature on Twitter in the way that a lot of politicians | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
maybe haven't done so in the past at such a level. | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
The kind of things he's been saying in rallies to his supporters around | :38:14. | :38:16. | |
the country he is now saying via his Twitter feed | :38:17. | :38:18. | |
A big cohort of our user base, and early adopters were of course | :38:19. | :38:23. | |
journalists, and journalists are jumping on this every time | :38:24. | :38:26. | |
he tweets, of course, to say, let's fact check this, | :38:27. | :38:28. | |
let's look at it, let's see what the context is, | :38:29. | :38:30. | |
the meaning behind it, that kind of thing. | :38:31. | :38:33. | |
And also it's sparking debate from our users. | :38:34. | :38:35. | |
I mean, in what sort of way, for someone who's not on Twitter, | :38:36. | :38:42. | |
would you say you would have consumed the Brexit referendum? | :38:43. | :38:44. | |
Every year we look at the top trends that are on Twitter. | :38:45. | :38:52. | |
Last year, it was very much around movements that had sprung up, | :38:53. | :38:55. | |
where people were trying to give a voice to the voiceless. | :38:56. | :38:58. | |
Things like Black Lies Matter, Home To Vote, Refugees Welcome. | :38:59. | :39:00. | |
2016 was a year of huge, seismic live events, | :39:01. | :39:02. | |
so the US election, Brexit, as you just talked about. | :39:03. | :39:05. | |
And what we've seen is where people have come to our platform | :39:06. | :39:08. | |
They are coming onto Twitter and they are seeing both | :39:09. | :39:11. | |
A very interesting question and a sort of big issue | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
for our society is this one of tribes and a very divided country | :39:16. | :39:18. | |
Howling around their same views with their same chums, | :39:19. | :39:27. | |
Are there people who are basically being fed the same old diet | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
We always encourage people on Twitter to follow people | :39:33. | :39:35. | |
from both sides of an argument, to follow people you agree with | :39:36. | :39:38. | |
But definitely when it comes to this kind of filter bubble argument | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
that is often labelled at Twitter, I think that absolutely wrong | :39:43. | :39:45. | |
on a number of levels, particularly around the fact | :39:46. | :39:47. | |
Twitter, the hashtag is where Twitter originated | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
That allows people to tap on something and to see tweets | :39:52. | :39:57. | |
You are not going to see it filtered by one side or the other. | :39:58. | :40:02. | |
Also, we don't have an interest here at Twitter in having | :40:03. | :40:05. | |
any kind of algorithm that is going to affect, | :40:06. | :40:07. | |
for you, how you see different types of content. | :40:08. | :40:10. | |
We are not going to keep resurfacing again and again a certain type | :40:11. | :40:13. | |
of content based on how you have interacted with it before. | :40:14. | :40:16. | |
In the same way that maybe there were filter | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
bubbles 20 years ago, 30 years ago, down to | :40:22. | :40:24. | |
the newspaper you read or the TV channel you used to watch. | :40:25. | :40:27. | |
Essentially, there are two ways of constructing a timeline. | :40:28. | :40:34. | |
Via a computer it will direct stuff to me that it thinks I am | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
Yours is more or less chronology of the people | :40:40. | :40:42. | |
I wonder whether you still think the chronology works. | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
The chronology for us is really vital because people come to Twitter | :40:47. | :40:49. | |
to just discover what is happening in the world right now | :40:50. | :40:52. | |
Now we're much more about news then we are about social media. | :40:53. | :40:58. | |
We move from social media part of the App Store | :40:59. | :41:00. | |
and the Google Place store into the news area in both of those | :41:01. | :41:03. | |
and I think that gives an indication of where we see ourselves. | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
One interesting aspect of this year of such interesting politics | :41:09. | :41:11. | |
is people have said, don't use Twitter to judge what's | :41:12. | :41:14. | |
I am guessing most of the tweets on Brexit were for Remain? | :41:15. | :41:24. | |
On Brexit, there were definitely more tweets about Leave, | :41:25. | :41:32. | |
talking about Leave than there were about Remain. | :41:33. | :41:35. | |
But if you looked at the individual accounts that were tweeting | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
about Leave or Remain, it was almost exactly 50-50, | :41:40. | :41:41. | |
which is pretty much how it turned out in the referendum result | :41:42. | :41:44. | |
Fake news stories have become an issue. | :41:45. | :41:47. | |
Is Twitter the right company to start trying to decide this | :41:48. | :41:49. | |
point needs to be removed because it is the spreading | :41:50. | :41:52. | |
We are definitely not in the business of policing | :41:53. | :41:55. | |
the content to that extent in terms of deciding what is true | :41:56. | :41:58. | |
When it comes to journalism, that is not what Twitter's about. | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
We take the issue extremely seriously. | :42:03. | :42:05. | |
How do you take it seriously, other than to say, to flag up | :42:06. | :42:08. | |
stories that you don't think are true? | :42:09. | :42:10. | |
From the start we have always verified journalists and real news | :42:11. | :42:12. | |
networks to make it clear from when you see the tweet | :42:13. | :42:15. | |
And that is something we have done for years. | :42:16. | :42:21. | |
We have also recently partnered with a group called | :42:22. | :42:24. | |
the First Draft News Coalition and they are a group of news | :42:25. | :42:26. | |
organisations and academics who are coming together to get these | :42:27. | :42:29. | |
meaty topics around news at the moment and to look | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
at solutions and ways we can work together so it is not tech companies | :42:34. | :42:36. | |
policing journalism, and we can find a way to make it | :42:37. | :42:39. | |
clear for users what is real, what isn't real, or where | :42:40. | :42:42. | |
That is all we have time for. We will watch the debate in Parliament | :42:43. | :43:00. | |
about Brexit tomorrow and I will be back in this chair tomorrow evening. | :43:01. | :43:06. | |
Good night. We are in for some mild weather, | :43:07. | :43:19. | |
certainly a change to what we have been used to in the last couple of | :43:20. | :43:23. | |
weeks. The wind is coming in from the south and it will be | :43:24. | :43:26. | |
particularly mild. If you | :43:27. | :43:28. |