08/12/2016 Newsnight


08/12/2016

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis.


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Transcript


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Dialogue and discretion: statecraft and savoir faire -

:00:07.:00:08.

the art of diplomacy used to look like this:

:00:09.:00:21.

What does that mean for the world in 2017?

:00:22.:00:27.

We ask whether the traditional tools of the mandarin are being eclipsed

:00:28.:00:30.

Boris piled into the Saudis and tonight the former

:00:31.:00:33.

Are we ready for a more truthful conversation

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# Never thought I'd ever feel this way again

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# But here it is, so why try to explain

:00:49.:00:52.

# When I hear your name all I want to do is break free

:00:53.:00:55.

The evergreen songthrush, Petula Clark, tells us what happens

:00:56.:00:59.

when she and another singer found themselves alone with Elvis Presley

:01:00.:01:02.

And it was quite obvious that he was impressed at seeing us.

:01:03.:01:06.

And we were with him because, I mean, he was gorgeous.

:01:07.:01:18.

There is no shortage of committees trying to sort out

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Nato this week in Brussels will be followed by

:01:23.:01:26.

the General Affairs Council, EU leaders, then the Organization

:01:27.:01:28.

Each time Syria and Ukraine are top of the agenda and each

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will yield resolutions and statements, tough

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But anyone who really wants to know what's happening in geopolitics

:01:40.:01:43.

right now is probably better off reading Twitter, the preferred

:01:44.:01:46.

form of communication of Mr Donald J Trump,

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or listening to the off script remarks of Boris Johnson.

:01:52.:01:54.

Tonight, we look at what power Nato and these other

:01:55.:01:56.

global bodies still yield and whether the traditional tools

:01:57.:01:58.

of diplomacy are being eclipsed by a new kind of state power.

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Mark Urban starts us off with this report.

:02:04.:02:06.

ARCHIVE: This business of building for peace is a very grim business

:02:07.:02:10.

and it has to be worked for day in and day out.

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The very foundation and purpose of the Atlantic Pact is to bring

:02:16.:02:19.

this freedom-loving peoples together in such a way that they can

:02:20.:02:22.

For nearly 70 years, Nato has ticked along nicely.

:02:23.:02:33.

Everybody's understood the shape of the deal.

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During his campaign, Donald Trump suggested the US

:02:37.:02:43.

wouldn't come to the aid of its European allies

:02:44.:02:45.

unless they paid more towards the cost of defence.

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Behind the scenes, in the Alliance, that's caused a sense of crisis.

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I want to keep Nato, but I want them to pay.

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I don't want to be taken advantage of.

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We don't want to be the stupid people any more, OK.

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We don't want to be the stupid people any more.

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Many in Nato feel Mr Trump has to make things crystal clear now.

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It will only be put to bed by the strongest possible signal

:03:15.:03:18.

from the new President, after the 20th January, that

:03:19.:03:23.

America will, no ifs, no buts, no prevarication,

:03:24.:03:26.

come to the aid of a Nato member if attacked.

:03:27.:03:29.

If that doesn't happen, there will continue to be doubts

:03:30.:03:31.

about America's willingness to do that under President Trump,

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and that will strike right at the heart of Nato's founding

:03:35.:03:38.

So, potentially, is this the end of Nato?

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The foundation of the Alliance is Article 5.

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If there is any doubt about that, then it could spell the beginning

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Seeing trouble ahead, the British have been trying

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to bridge the gap between Trump and their European allies.

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Earlier this week, at the Nato meeting, Boris Johnson started

:04:02.:04:04.

the business of cajoling those who spend too little

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It is absolutely vital that everybody steps up to the plate

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and puts their money where their mouth is.

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From the European point of view, there's been a reluctance historical

:04:19.:04:21.

to support certain presidents - Reagan, Bush or now Trump.

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But look at it from the American perspective.

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The Europeans have consistently under spent on defence

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Taking it from a point where the US used to provide about half

:04:34.:04:42.

of the Alliance's defence spending, to one where it's now 75% American.

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This was a change election in the United States.

:04:49.:04:50.

We have an administration with a very different

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So there will be change, and I think the allies have to be

:04:54.:04:57.

prepared to adapt but, hopefully, at the same time,

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persuading the new US administration that Nato is a valuable asset

:05:01.:05:02.

There are 28 countries in Nato and all are committed to a target

:05:03.:05:10.

of spending 2% of their GDP on defence by 2024.

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Five of them already do - USA, Greece, the UK,

:05:18.:05:21.

Some are moving in the right direction.

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But when you look at the bottom five, including some

:05:29.:05:32.

of the Alliance's richest economies, they're spending under 1%

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Less than half the target, with little chance of meeting it.

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Add to the disagreements over resources, arguments about Russia

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and you have a growing crisis in the Alliance.

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President Trump wants a reset of relations with the Kremlin,

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and if that means de facto recognition of Putin's

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seizure of Crimea or indeed allowing him free rein

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in the former Soviet Union, the divisions will get

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Basically, ratifying the results of Russian aggression

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in Ukraine I think would perhaps buy you some short-term tranquillity

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but, in the end, it would create a much more unstable situation

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in Europe, encourage the Russians to continue to press forward

:06:22.:06:27.

for some kind of Yalta II with a new division of Europe

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into spheres of influence which I think would bring back some

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of the instability that we saw in previous decades.

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Nato is now preparing forces to defend the Baltic Republics,

:06:40.:06:42.

part of the Alliance, but once part of the USSR.

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If Nato doesn't make a credible pledge to defend them,

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There must be absolutely no doubt about the imperative of defending,

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There can be no discussion or deals about 'zones of influence'

:06:58.:07:04.

'new Yalta's', and that sort of thing, because that strikes

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right at the heart of what Nato's about.

:07:08.:07:11.

You always have to be prepared to walk.

:07:12.:07:14.

It would be easy to blame Donald Trump for undermining Nato,

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but European defence cuts have been going on for 25 years,

:07:18.:07:19.

If there are tricky times ahead for the Alliance,

:07:20.:07:23.

that's because many members now see things quite differently.

:07:24.:07:35.

We need to know what Trump will do, what Putin will do,

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what Brexit will look like - the cusp of change.

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We can speak to our correspondents in Syria, Washington and London

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about where the events of 2016 have left us.

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I guess, so much uncertainty. Aleppo is the front-line and the human cost

:07:47.:08:02.

of all this? Aleppo is at the top of the in-tray for leaders in many

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capitals. It is the war of our time. It is in Syria a civil war, a

:08:08.:08:12.

sectarian war, but it stopped being just about Syria a very long time

:08:13.:08:16.

ago. It is also a proxy war with all of the regional big hitters,

:08:17.:08:22.

including Saudi Arabia and Iran entangled in it. A new cold war with

:08:23.:08:27.

Moscow and Washington as well. It's the humanitarian test of our time,

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to use the United Nations phrase, and the world is failing Syria. On

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its watch, almost every day here accusations of possible war crimes

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by one side or the other. It is a terrible indictment of the

:08:44.:08:46.

international community. Will it take a different turn come January

:08:47.:08:51.

with a new United Nations Secretary General and a new President in the

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White House? Everyone is watching certainly here. To Jon Sopel in

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Washington. Listening to Lyse, you have to ask the question, Jon, how

:09:01.:09:06.

much does the in-coming administration commend how much is

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being suspended as we wait for Trump to begin? We wait for Trump to

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appoint who will be his Secretary of State. We have had all the words

:09:15.:09:23.

that Mark Urban played out. I was with with Rudy Giuliani hoping to be

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Secretary of State, he said you have to look at Donald Trump's tweets in

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the context of the start of a negotiation. This isn't what he

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thinks. This is his starting point for a negotiation where you might

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reach some centre ground. The other thing that Rudy Giuliani said is he

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doesn't know much about foreign affairs and who gets appointed is

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absolutely critical. I think the Secretary of State role will assume

:09:50.:09:53.

much more importance than it did under Barack Obama because Donald

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Trump is going to need to lean on whoever that Secretary of State is.

:09:57.:10:01.

So the world is waiting for the US response. America is waiting to see

:10:02.:10:06.

who the Secretary of State will be. Donald Trump, we know what his

:10:07.:10:11.

instincts are. These are complex issues. We have no idea which way

:10:12.:10:16.

he's going to jump on certain key policies. To Mark Urban now. If 2016

:10:17.:10:24.

was the year of shocks, what do you think 2017 is shaping up to be? I

:10:25.:10:30.

think another very bad year for the West and the Western idea of what is

:10:31.:10:33.

right. Let's look at some of the things that have been happening

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recently. China, in the summer, refusing to accept arbitration over

:10:38.:10:41.

a dispute with the Philippines in the South China Sea. South Africa

:10:42.:10:45.

and Russia pulling out of the International Criminal Court. Donald

:10:46.:10:50.

Trump saying he won't ratified the trans Pacific trade deal. The ideas

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have been around for some time about what is right in terms of human

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rights, trade, dispute resolution now being actively ignored in Aleppo

:10:58.:11:03.

or in that case in the south can South China Sea challenged. The core

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institutions of the West next year, the EU and Nato I think will also

:11:08.:11:11.

face serious challenge. Mark, thank you. Thank you all very much indeed.

:11:12.:11:16.

Well, the day began with comments from Boris Johnson

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hitting the airwaves - he had candidly admitted

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the Middle East had no strong leadership willing to reach out

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That's why, he said, "you have Saudis, Iran

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moving in, puppeteering and playing proxy wars."

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It was written up as a gaff and Number Ten were quick

:11:31.:11:33.

to distance themselves from the Foreign

:11:34.:11:34.

But they echo feelings that come right from within the region itself.

:11:35.:11:39.

The former President of Yemen, Ali Saleef, gave an exclusive

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interview to the BBC Arabic's Nawal al-Maghafi today for an Our World

:11:43.:11:48.

documentary, in which he agreed the strikes by Saudi on his country

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Yemen's former president speaking there.

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So how should we interpret those comments from Boris Johnson?

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Or has he broken the cardinal rule of British diplomacy?

:13:53.:14:01.

Our political editor, Nick Watt, is here.

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What did Downing Street make of the remarks? There was a certain feeling

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in Whitehall today that Theresa May hit the roof when she learned about

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the reports that were reported in this morning's Guardian. She had

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just returned from a visit to the Gulf where she met the King of Saudi

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Arabia and there was incredulity that Boris Johnson made these

:14:23.:14:24.

remarks last week knowing the Prime Minister would meet the king a few

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days later. There was a sense that perhaps he was behaving as a

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newspaper columnist thinking of headlines rather than as Britain's

:14:33.:14:36.

chief diplomat. This morning, you got the slap down from Downing

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Street in public where they said that these were his views and not

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the government's views and that was really knocking him down a peg or

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two. Because if the Foreign Secretary speaks for himself and not

:14:48.:14:53.

for Britain, he's really going to struggle to establish credibility on

:14:54.:14:57.

the world stage. So any response from Boris Johnson today to that? I

:14:58.:15:02.

think there's a feeling in Boris Johnson's circle that the use of the

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word property was unwise but there's irritation that Downing Street gave

:15:07.:15:10.

the story a new lease of life why publicly rebuking him in that way.

:15:11.:15:15.

-- the word property. He is going to travel to the region in the next few

:15:16.:15:19.

days and go to Saudi Arabia and my senses he's not going to be in

:15:20.:15:22.

apology mode because essentially, what he's going to say that the

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Saudis know what he thinks because this is he tells them in private,

:15:28.:15:32.

significantly, an official advice. But what is really interesting is I

:15:33.:15:35.

get the impression that Boris Johnson think that after the

:15:36.:15:40.

election of Donald Trump, the downfall of Matteo Renzi after the

:15:41.:15:44.

Italian referendum, we are in a new world and in that new world, it can

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be refreshing if you can hear in public what is being said behind

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closed doors and in this case, has been said behind closed doors for 15

:15:54.:15:58.

years. Briefly, do you think there is a hint we might have more of

:15:59.:16:02.

this? I think that Boris Johnson really does feel quite strongly that

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there is a new world out there. He understands it, if, in a sense, he

:16:09.:16:12.

was part of that new world because of course he was one of the leading

:16:13.:16:16.

lights, and there is an argument we may not be talking about leaving the

:16:17.:16:19.

European Union were it not for Boris Johnson's decision to endorse and

:16:20.:16:23.

campaign to leave. Interesting. Thank you for joining us.

:16:24.:16:26.

Joining us now, Sean O'Grady from the Independent and Jill Rutter

:16:27.:16:29.

Lovely to have you here. Do you think it is right that we have now

:16:30.:16:38.

entered a different era, a different age? We have to rewrite the rules a

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bit of how diplomacy is done? I think there's a lot in that and I

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think it is perfectly true that people, fairly obviously, over the

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last year or more, have got very tired of politicians missing their

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words, not saying what they think. There was a lack of authenticity in

:16:56.:17:01.

political life and I think what has happened with the Brexit vote and

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drum and what is happening on the continent of Europe in some cases,

:17:05.:17:08.

for various reasons and sometimes it is the radical right and sometimes a

:17:09.:17:12.

bit more the radical left to benefit from it, people are looking for

:17:13.:17:15.

politicians who say what they mean and mean what they say. And I think

:17:16.:17:20.

they have been lacking that and I think that if the politicians then

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choose to make a populist appeal, so much the better for them and they

:17:25.:17:28.

are benefiting from it. There's a huge sort of global peasants revolt

:17:29.:17:32.

which is happening at the moment. There will be plenty of support for

:17:33.:17:36.

that, would there? A politician who says it as it is and is admired for

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doing so. I think you really need to differentiate a bit between

:17:43.:17:45.

politicians and government. I think one of the things that is quite

:17:46.:17:49.

interesting is I think you are right, people want politicians who

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are prepared not just to spout lines to take and things like that but

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it's a bit different when you are talking about government and

:17:58.:18:00.

government positions which is quite interesting -- why it's quite

:18:01.:18:04.

interesting number ten have had to clarify, have been spending the last

:18:05.:18:07.

three or four months clarifying a lot of their ministers. Quite often,

:18:08.:18:10.

a minister goes out and freelance is a bit and comes back and number ten

:18:11.:18:15.

said it was their position, not the government position. It may be a

:18:16.:18:18.

considered view that it is actually better to foment a bit of debate and

:18:19.:18:25.

there's only one person who authentically speaks for the

:18:26.:18:27.

government, which is Theresa May, and everyone else is doing their own

:18:28.:18:30.

thing but it gets a bit awkward. We've had one area and Heathrow

:18:31.:18:33.

where they have formally suspended collective responsibility --

:18:34.:18:37.

collective responsibility. What does Boris Johnson do now? When he goes

:18:38.:18:40.

to the Middle East, does he stick with his line or the government's?

:18:41.:18:45.

If I was him, I would stick to the Boris Johnson line. So he set

:18:46.:18:49.

himself at odds with the UK Government permanently? Orange

:18:50.:18:51.

Mackreth I think they can live with it and I think we can as well. What

:18:52.:18:56.

he has done is bring ethics into foreign policy, just like that.

:18:57.:19:00.

Nobody has noticed but we now have a liberal Foreign Secretary, in

:19:01.:19:03.

effect, operating in ethical foreign policy. There was this idea that we

:19:04.:19:10.

can deal with a government that sends out different messages? Think

:19:11.:19:12.

about being the receiving government, you have someone coming

:19:13.:19:15.

and are they speaking for the country from which they come or not?

:19:16.:19:19.

That is when it gets really complicated. In a sense, you almost

:19:20.:19:23.

devalue the Foreign Secretary's visit because it's not the

:19:24.:19:26.

government. Theresa May says those things in private to the Saudi

:19:27.:19:30.

government anyway, we understand so he's just taking it out of the

:19:31.:19:34.

shadows and putting it into the public sphere. What he's doing, the

:19:35.:19:39.

point is for 50, 60, 70 years, diplomats, the Foreign Office, what

:19:40.:19:44.

people are unkindly call the Camel Corps, those people have been doing

:19:45.:19:48.

quiet diplomacy, behind-the-scenes diplomacy, talking and lobbying in

:19:49.:19:52.

secret and then they go to the banquet and so forth and they are

:19:53.:19:56.

very polite and at best you have a coded message. It is not doing any

:19:57.:20:00.

good in Yemen. Boris Johnson is completely right. Everyone knows it,

:20:01.:20:04.

there's a proxy war going on in Yemen between Iran and Saudi Arabia.

:20:05.:20:07.

And other parts of the Middle East as well. If we don't call them out,

:20:08.:20:13.

as Boris Johnson has done, then you go along with the spin and you just

:20:14.:20:16.

get nowhere. People suffer as a result. Like the no collective

:20:17.:20:23.

responsibility, maybe it's a small point in the great scale of things

:20:24.:20:26.

but there is no point of which you hold the government to it count for

:20:27.:20:30.

anything they have said? But there wasn't anything Boris Johnson said

:20:31.:20:34.

that was actually rude. He was just telling them what they know already.

:20:35.:20:37.

It is like telling the king he's got a beard. May but I think the

:20:38.:20:43.

interesting thing is if there is an explicit strategy that you want to

:20:44.:20:47.

maybe pincer attack, the Foreign Secretary saying one thing and the

:20:48.:20:50.

Prime Minister saying another thing and that is agreed in advance and

:20:51.:20:54.

they know and the Foreign Secretary knows the Prime Minister might

:20:55.:20:57.

distance herself slightly from him, then I think that's fine. If

:20:58.:21:01.

actually, what you are getting is two people shooting off in slightly

:21:02.:21:04.

different directions, whatever they are saying privately behind closed

:21:05.:21:08.

doors, I think that makes for policy incoherence and I don't think it is

:21:09.:21:12.

terribly helpful and it does not help advance British interests. Do

:21:13.:21:19.

you think he did it deliberately? That he was happy for it to be

:21:20.:21:22.

picked up? That is the hint we are getting. I'm not a Boris reader, he

:21:23.:21:25.

might live next door to the Institute by telepathy does not go

:21:26.:21:27.

through the walls. It's interesting, he's relatively new to a senior

:21:28.:21:33.

cabinet position and as mayor of London, it was OK to say things on

:21:34.:21:37.

your own account, the same way that Donald Trump can still say things on

:21:38.:21:41.

his own account. Once you are a senior government minister, you are

:21:42.:21:44.

expected to be able to talk for the government. That's an interesting

:21:45.:21:47.

point because on one level, it is not very collegiate, he's used to

:21:48.:21:52.

being the Boris Johnson figure. Is there a bit of megalomania coming

:21:53.:21:58.

into this? I wouldn't call it that. He's a top-ranked politician. They

:21:59.:22:03.

are all megalomaniacs. So you would? It's not so unusual in that line of

:22:04.:22:09.

work. But he is one of, like quite a few of them, those who is not

:22:10.:22:12.

necessarily a very good team player which is not helped by the fact he's

:22:13.:22:15.

a journalist because journalists like to tell the truth every so

:22:16.:22:19.

often, as you know. He's not one of those people who is inclined to

:22:20.:22:24.

follow his lead are always and everywhere. If we move this slightly

:22:25.:22:28.

away from Boris, the bigger question is perhaps when you look at the

:22:29.:22:31.

institutions, and I listed them at the beginning of the programme, you

:22:32.:22:35.

look at what Nato is trying to do, not very successfully and what EU

:22:36.:22:39.

leaders are trying to do, not very successfully, they can make the

:22:40.:22:42.

minutes and these emissions and the summit and all the rest of it but

:22:43.:22:45.

Barnsley, the world has failed in the Middle East, it's failed to so

:22:46.:22:55.

-- solve the war and diplomacy does not work as we know. Does something

:22:56.:22:58.

you need to happen even if it comes from a strong statement? I think

:22:59.:23:00.

it's really interesting, I think there's a good case for saying that

:23:01.:23:02.

actually, we need political leaders generally who are prepared much more

:23:03.:23:05.

to level and expose the real choices that they face and have a much more

:23:06.:23:09.

honest conversation, whether it is an foreign policy or domestic

:23:10.:23:13.

policy, with the population. Whether actually, the events of this year

:23:14.:23:16.

have shown there is a real public appetite for that or not, I'm not so

:23:17.:23:20.

sure I would read it that way but I think there are lots of areas where

:23:21.:23:25.

there is almost a sort of conspiracy of not asking difficult questions

:23:26.:23:28.

between the political class which means that actually, there's a

:23:29.:23:33.

divorced from reality. I think actually, a general move towards

:23:34.:23:37.

having more debates in public and actually being prepared to admit you

:23:38.:23:40.

don't know things, that some things are difficult, that sometimes you

:23:41.:23:43.

will make the wrong choice, will actually improve the quality of

:23:44.:23:47.

public debate enormously. I think that's different from shooting off

:23:48.:23:50.

in different directions, though, because it seems like a good thing

:23:51.:23:53.

to say at the time. I don't know if that is what he was doing a lot but

:23:54.:23:56.

I don't think you can run government on that basis. Thank you for joining

:23:57.:23:58.

us. Anyone who's devoted hours

:23:59.:24:00.

of the last week watching the intricate and detailed legal

:24:01.:24:02.

argument of the Supreme Court will perhaps have noticed one

:24:03.:24:04.

extraordinary thing - The make up of the UK's highest

:24:05.:24:06.

court, in other words, has been overwhelmingly old,

:24:07.:24:10.

male and white. Chris Cooke's going to

:24:11.:24:12.

have a go at explaining. One striking feature

:24:13.:24:18.

of the Supreme Court is, for a public body, how pale,

:24:19.:24:20.

male and old it is. All white, when 13% of the country

:24:21.:24:25.

is from an ethnic minority. Only one woman of 11

:24:26.:24:30.

Justices, all aged over 60. Supreme Court Justices need

:24:31.:24:35.

decades of experience. Half the population are women,

:24:36.:24:43.

but only one Justice is, Lady Hale. According to a study

:24:44.:24:54.

of 34 Supreme Courts from around the world,

:24:55.:24:56.

that low representation puts us Now, only 16% of judges in England

:24:57.:24:59.

and Wales over 60 are women. So it's partly a reflection of legal

:25:00.:25:08.

recruitment of 40 years 34% of 50-something judges are women

:25:09.:25:10.

and 47% of 40 to 49-year-old judges. Yet there remains a lack

:25:11.:25:22.

of women across the top In the Court of Appeal, only seven

:25:23.:25:24.

of the 38 Justices are women. So there's a problem in the pipeline

:25:25.:25:29.

for women to the senior judiciary. There's not just an absence

:25:30.:25:35.

of ethnic minority judges in the Supreme Court,

:25:36.:25:41.

there are no Court of Appeal minority judges either,

:25:42.:25:44.

and only 5% of High Court judges There's also a basic

:25:45.:25:46.

recruitment problem here, Only 9% of Justices in England

:25:47.:25:51.

and Wales, under 40, The minority population share

:25:52.:25:58.

of adults, aged 25 to 40 in Britain, Building a judiciary which better

:25:59.:26:03.

reflects the country Karon Monaghan QC wrote a review

:26:04.:26:20.

into judicial diversity in 2014 and Matthew Ryder QC is London's deputy

:26:21.:26:25.

mayor for social integration, social mobility and community. Nice to have

:26:26.:26:28.

you both here. I wonder if you think it actually matters? Does it matter

:26:29.:26:34.

if they don't look like their country they represent necessarily?

:26:35.:26:39.

Yes, I think it does. I think it matters for reasons of democratic

:26:40.:26:43.

legitimacy. We saw this week the Supreme Court dealing with some of

:26:44.:26:46.

the most important constitutional issues that are likely to be

:26:47.:26:51.

confronted in law and looking at a court that bears no resemblance to

:26:52.:26:54.

those who are likely to be affected by the decisions they will in due

:26:55.:27:00.

course make really calls into question whether or not we can

:27:01.:27:04.

really buy into that. Secondly, I think it's important because it

:27:05.:27:08.

makes a difference. It makes a difference, certainly in some cases,

:27:09.:27:13.

to the outcome. You actually think it changes the way... In a small

:27:14.:27:20.

number of cases, I think, yes. And I say that based on experience of

:27:21.:27:23.

being in the Supreme Court but also, I say it because senior judges say

:27:24.:27:31.

it, senior women judges said. I find that fascinating, do you think your

:27:32.:27:34.

own perspective has changed? Would you agree with that as well? -- has

:27:35.:27:41.

changed an outcome? We bring different experiences and in a

:27:42.:27:44.

collegiate cord, women and other minorities will bring other

:27:45.:27:47.

experiences which will inform the ultimate decision. So it's not just

:27:48.:27:52.

about the way law is read? Matthew, you feel, you had a very different

:27:53.:27:57.

experience coming in to a predominantly all-white, mail...

:27:58.:28:02.

Yeah, and I think I'm an adviser on the David Lammy review which is

:28:03.:28:05.

looking at this termination the criminal justice system and the

:28:06.:28:09.

interim findings have said 51% of British-born non-white people don't

:28:10.:28:13.

have confidence in the criminal justice system. Now whether that is

:28:14.:28:18.

well founded on the evidence or not is almost not the issue because the

:28:19.:28:22.

concern is the confidence within the judiciary and the level to which it

:28:23.:28:25.

has legitimacy to the public it is serving. So I agree, it is a really

:28:26.:28:30.

important reason why the judiciary, we really need a judiciary that does

:28:31.:28:34.

an important public service that looks like the community it serves.

:28:35.:28:39.

The second point is that you say you find interesting I think is an

:28:40.:28:42.

interesting phenomenon because when you get a diversity of experience at

:28:43.:28:46.

a judge level, at the lower level of courts as well, particularly, you

:28:47.:28:52.

know, when judges are dealing with facts and understanding communities

:28:53.:28:55.

and understanding where people come from, a wealth of experience can be

:28:56.:28:58.

really important. That doesn't mean you can't put yourself in someone

:28:59.:29:02.

else's shoes but it means that the broader breadth of experience you

:29:03.:29:05.

have do draw on from the judiciary, the more likely you are to get

:29:06.:29:08.

people that understand the points in front of them. There are levers for

:29:09.:29:15.

change, are there? On one hand, you could say these are the finest legal

:29:16.:29:18.

minds and they have endless experience and they are at the end

:29:19.:29:21.

of their career so they are naturally going to be older. So

:29:22.:29:27.

there are levers. One, we have traditionally appointed from the

:29:28.:29:30.

Court of Appeal, as you referred to, or the High Court for the Supreme

:29:31.:29:34.

Court judges. And they are predominantly white and male. So if

:29:35.:29:37.

we use that as the pool, inevitably we will have a cord which is

:29:38.:29:45.

constituted by those who are represented in the scene Yu courts

:29:46.:29:49.

below. Lord Sumption jumped straight up. He was the first person to do so

:29:50.:29:53.

in about half a century and he was of course, a white man educated at

:29:54.:29:58.

Eton and Oxford, unfortunately. So we can widen the pool, there's no

:29:59.:30:01.

reason we have to recruit from that pool. We widen the pool by, for

:30:02.:30:06.

example, advertising for academics, for those who are employed lawyers

:30:07.:30:11.

and so on, a more diverse cohort and there is also a mechanism within the

:30:12.:30:14.

law that exists now which allows for women to be preferred in cases where

:30:15.:30:21.

they are of equal merit as compared to a man. And that can be a useful

:30:22.:30:30.

tool if properly used. To ensure that there is greater diversity but

:30:31.:30:35.

so far, there's been considerable reluctance both in extending the

:30:36.:30:38.

pool and using that tool. Looking at the pipeline, as it were, the gender

:30:39.:30:42.

problem seems to correct itself because there are many more women

:30:43.:30:47.

coming through. When you look at the ethnic minorities, one thing that is

:30:48.:30:49.

extraordinary is that throughout school, it tends to be ethnic

:30:50.:30:53.

minority kids that outperform white kids. Why doesn't that follow

:30:54.:30:58.

through then into such a strong part of the astonishment? You're talking

:30:59.:31:01.

about a couple of things, firstly, a legacy. As you pointed out, judges

:31:02.:31:05.

are of a certain age and a certain point in their careers. We change

:31:06.:31:08.

the system of how we appointed judges about ten years ago and as a

:31:09.:31:12.

result, we are looking at... Radically changed, a much more

:31:13.:31:17.

transparent system, a way, a judicial appointments commission

:31:18.:31:19.

which is not about a tap on the shoulder from people you know but is

:31:20.:31:23.

a much more objective system. Ten years later, we are looking at what

:31:24.:31:26.

has happened but it takes time for it to flush through. At the same

:31:27.:31:29.

time, it is really important to emphasise, you asked about

:31:30.:31:32.

experience, my experience of first sitting as a judge is that the

:31:33.:31:36.

judges I sat with were enormously welcoming and very positive and that

:31:37.:31:40.

was great but it's almost not the point. The point is, you need to

:31:41.:31:44.

make sure there are more able people from ethnic minorities feeling they

:31:45.:31:47.

can apply and there needs to be more rigour, trying to find them. The

:31:48.:31:51.

important point to note, if I can make two quick points, firstly,

:31:52.:31:55.

everybody in the debate pretty much agree is that you have to maintain

:31:56.:31:59.

the very high standard of the Ingush judiciary. Everyone in the debate

:32:00.:32:03.

also agreed that we can't continue with the same lack of diversity in

:32:04.:32:08.

the judiciary we have now. -- English judiciary. It's a given

:32:09.:32:11.

everyone understands that and we are just tried to find the best way to

:32:12.:32:12.

get there quickly. Barristers are employed on a

:32:13.:32:22.

case-by-case basis. You can't have a system that is corrected from within

:32:23.:32:29.

the inside, as it were You looked to a broader cohort. You look outside

:32:30.:32:36.

the self-employed Bar and look to academia. At the Supreme Court level

:32:37.:32:39.

you don't need to have those who excel at the Bar. The judiciary as a

:32:40.:32:45.

whole you will not look outside? At the senior levels, there is no

:32:46.:32:50.

reason why not. We should be more progressive about the way we recruit

:32:51.:32:55.

at first instance senior level by, for example, adopting the equal

:32:56.:33:02.

merit provision identified. I'm less optimistic about Matthew who, I

:33:03.:33:06.

think if I understood him correctly, is suggesting that things will

:33:07.:33:13.

change. Can I just say. Of course. We have had 14 white men appointed

:33:14.:33:21.

since Lady Hale was appointed. Cannot be each and every one of

:33:22.:33:24.

those men is better than the best of the women who could have been

:33:25.:33:28.

appointed. I think we need to do something more compelling there. I

:33:29.:33:31.

do think it's important... In the context of the job I do for the

:33:32.:33:36.

Mayor of London. He doesn't have anything to do with the judiciary,

:33:37.:33:43.

when you talk about broader service. You cannot, when have you a problem

:33:44.:33:47.

with diversity in the public service, you cannot be complacent.

:33:48.:33:50.

You cannot be complacent. The opposite. What I'm saying is, the

:33:51.:33:56.

worst thing you can do is take the view - it will be all right, time

:33:57.:33:59.

will sort it out. It won't. Absolutely. Have you to be rigorous.

:34:00.:34:05.

As long as you are engaged in that conversation with the profession,

:34:06.:34:08.

with other people making sure you have the right kind of levers that

:34:09.:34:12.

you are pulling, that is #2350i7b. Fine. You can't expect it will sort

:34:13.:34:21.

it self out, because it won't. Thank you very much.

:34:22.:34:25.

If you've made it this far into the programme,

:34:26.:34:27.

it can only mean that you're as keen as I am to hear from our

:34:28.:34:31.

crepuscular culture correspondent, Stephen Smith.

:34:32.:34:32.

And tonight's effort should be pretty good for once,

:34:33.:34:34.

as he's joined by one of our most garlanded and best-loved

:34:35.:34:37.

At the height of Beatlemania in the '60s, Miss Clark

:34:38.:34:40.

was the female face of the "British invasion" of America,

:34:41.:34:43.

where she enjoyed 15 consecutive hit singles.

:34:44.:34:44.

Now aged 84, she came into Newsnight's storied rehearsal

:34:45.:34:47.

rooms to sing from her new album, From Now On, and to talk

:34:48.:34:50.

about evading an amorous Elvis, taking career advice

:34:51.:34:52.

from John Lennon and the transcendent therapy of...ironing.

:34:53.:34:54.

Stephen's report includes a little colourful language and the usual

:34:55.:34:56.

# Downtown, where all the lights are bright

:34:57.:35:00.

# Downtown, waiting for us tonight...#.

:35:01.:35:10.

When The Beatles weren't topping the American charts

:35:11.:35:12.

But when she found herself having a hard time with

:35:13.:35:20.

audiences in bilingual Canada, of all places, she turned

:35:21.:35:23.

There they were, John and Yoko, sitting up in bed, you

:35:24.:35:26.

John said, "Hey, what's the matter with you?"

:35:27.:35:30.

And he was so sweet and wise and funny and he gave

:35:31.:35:37.

me a piece of advice which I can't repeat.

:35:38.:35:40.

Even in front of a grown-up like you.

:35:41.:35:42.

"Well, thank you for that advice, John."

:35:43.:35:52.

He said, "Go and have a drink in the living room".

:35:53.:35:54.

They had a suite, so I went into the living room

:35:55.:35:57.

and there were people humming along to this simple little

:35:58.:35:59.

song that was coming over the loudspeaker.

:36:00.:36:08.

They gave us a lyric and we all started singing it.

:36:09.:36:11.

And little did I know that we were all being recorded.

:36:12.:36:24.

Capping a long and distinguished career, Miss Clark joined us to

:36:25.:36:32.

record a prestigious Newsnight session with a song from her new

:36:33.:36:34.

# Never thought I'd ever feel this way again

:36:35.:36:41.

# But here it is so why try to explain

:36:42.:36:44.

I insist on having an iron and an ironing board in my dressing

:36:45.:37:00.

room, because that's my, that's my therapy, before I go on.

:37:01.:37:03.

Do you take like the week's wash in and do them or just...

:37:04.:37:12.

..or just the blouse you are performing in?

:37:13.:37:15.

No, my musicians did suggest perhaps I did their shirts

:37:16.:37:18.

# I've heard it all a million times before #.

:37:19.:37:25.

Like other female stars, Lulu, Cilla Black, Petula Clark had her

:37:26.:37:28.

own TV series in the supposedly less-enlightened '60s.

:37:29.:37:31.

# Don't sleep in the subway, darling

:37:32.:37:33.

What does she make of today's younger singers?

:37:34.:37:42.

A lot of them seem to be trying to sound like someone

:37:43.:37:45.

I suppose that's understandable when you're starting

:37:46.:37:47.

But, you know, the trick is to find your sound

:37:48.:37:58.

Find a sound that other people will want to imitate.

:37:59.:38:08.

# Well, I've lost my soul, what's wrong with me #.

:38:09.:38:11.

At the height of her fame, Miss Clark found herself in Elvis

:38:12.:38:14.

Presley's dressing room in Vegas, alone apart from the singer Karen

:38:15.:38:16.

It was quite obvious that he was impressed at seeing us.

:38:17.:38:20.

I mean, he was gorgeous, and let's face it,

:38:21.:38:26.

Karen and I were the top two women singers in the world, you know.

:38:27.:38:30.

And I said, "Elvis, that was so great.

:38:31.:38:40.

Thank you for the drink, blah blah blah", and we scuttled out of

:38:41.:38:45.

And as I left, I turned round and Elvis was standing at the door,

:38:46.:38:50.

# But I love you the way you are

:38:51.:38:59.

The papers. The Mail, a decision that MPs and military chiefs are

:39:00.:39:26.

calling "disgraceful." It's by The Police Service of Northern Ireland

:39:27.:39:31.

to re-examine every British Army killing during The Troubles.

:39:32.:39:41.

In the Times. A story with a headline, aid blown on foreign

:39:42.:39:50.

luxury. Hundreds of millions pounds of aid have been poured into hotels

:39:51.:40:01.

and rest rants. This is a revelation about the Times about the

:40:02.:40:04.

government's private equity decision. Claims it make as lasting

:40:05.:40:09.

difference to people's lives. In the Guardian, photo that will shock you.

:40:10.:40:14.

To talk you through that. In case you can't see the small pribt print.

:40:15.:40:20.

This is by Alison Jackson, the artist famous for the satirical

:40:21.:40:30.

photos posed by lookalikes. She was saying she was outraged by lawyers

:40:31.:40:40.

warningings that a President might sue to restrict artistic freedom.

:40:41.:40:44.

But just before we go, there was news this evening that

:40:45.:40:48.

John Glenn, the first American to orbit the Earth, has died.

:40:49.:40:50.

We thought there would be no more fitting tribute than the footage

:40:51.:40:53.

Coming down on a ten, circles are open.

:40:54.:41:27.

Recondition at 10,800 feet and beautiful choux chute.

:41:28.:41:53.

It it looks as though we will start off on a

:41:54.:41:54.