Browse content similar to 08/12/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Dialogue and discretion: statecraft and savoir faire - | :00:07. | :00:08. | |
the art of diplomacy used to look like this: | :00:09. | :00:21. | |
What does that mean for the world in 2017? | :00:22. | :00:27. | |
We ask whether the traditional tools of the mandarin are being eclipsed | :00:28. | :00:30. | |
Boris piled into the Saudis and tonight the former | :00:31. | :00:33. | |
Are we ready for a more truthful conversation | :00:34. | :00:41. | |
# Never thought I'd ever feel this way again | :00:42. | :00:48. | |
# But here it is, so why try to explain | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
# When I hear your name all I want to do is break free | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
The evergreen songthrush, Petula Clark, tells us what happens | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
when she and another singer found themselves alone with Elvis Presley | :01:00. | :01:02. | |
And it was quite obvious that he was impressed at seeing us. | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
And we were with him because, I mean, he was gorgeous. | :01:07. | :01:18. | |
There is no shortage of committees trying to sort out | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
Nato this week in Brussels will be followed by | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
the General Affairs Council, EU leaders, then the Organization | :01:27. | :01:28. | |
Each time Syria and Ukraine are top of the agenda and each | :01:29. | :01:38. | |
will yield resolutions and statements, tough | :01:39. | :01:39. | |
But anyone who really wants to know what's happening in geopolitics | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
right now is probably better off reading Twitter, the preferred | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
form of communication of Mr Donald J Trump, | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
or listening to the off script remarks of Boris Johnson. | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
Tonight, we look at what power Nato and these other | :01:55. | :01:56. | |
global bodies still yield and whether the traditional tools | :01:57. | :01:58. | |
of diplomacy are being eclipsed by a new kind of state power. | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
Mark Urban starts us off with this report. | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
ARCHIVE: This business of building for peace is a very grim business | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
and it has to be worked for day in and day out. | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
The very foundation and purpose of the Atlantic Pact is to bring | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
this freedom-loving peoples together in such a way that they can | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
For nearly 70 years, Nato has ticked along nicely. | :02:23. | :02:33. | |
Everybody's understood the shape of the deal. | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
During his campaign, Donald Trump suggested the US | :02:37. | :02:43. | |
wouldn't come to the aid of its European allies | :02:44. | :02:45. | |
unless they paid more towards the cost of defence. | :02:46. | :02:54. | |
Behind the scenes, in the Alliance, that's caused a sense of crisis. | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
I want to keep Nato, but I want them to pay. | :02:59. | :03:00. | |
I don't want to be taken advantage of. | :03:01. | :03:02. | |
We don't want to be the stupid people any more, OK. | :03:03. | :03:05. | |
We don't want to be the stupid people any more. | :03:06. | :03:07. | |
Many in Nato feel Mr Trump has to make things crystal clear now. | :03:08. | :03:14. | |
It will only be put to bed by the strongest possible signal | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
from the new President, after the 20th January, that | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
America will, no ifs, no buts, no prevarication, | :03:24. | :03:26. | |
come to the aid of a Nato member if attacked. | :03:27. | :03:29. | |
If that doesn't happen, there will continue to be doubts | :03:30. | :03:31. | |
about America's willingness to do that under President Trump, | :03:32. | :03:34. | |
and that will strike right at the heart of Nato's founding | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
So, potentially, is this the end of Nato? | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
The foundation of the Alliance is Article 5. | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
If there is any doubt about that, then it could spell the beginning | :03:49. | :03:51. | |
Seeing trouble ahead, the British have been trying | :03:52. | :03:57. | |
to bridge the gap between Trump and their European allies. | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
Earlier this week, at the Nato meeting, Boris Johnson started | :04:02. | :04:04. | |
the business of cajoling those who spend too little | :04:05. | :04:06. | |
It is absolutely vital that everybody steps up to the plate | :04:07. | :04:13. | |
and puts their money where their mouth is. | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
From the European point of view, there's been a reluctance historical | :04:19. | :04:21. | |
to support certain presidents - Reagan, Bush or now Trump. | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
But look at it from the American perspective. | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
The Europeans have consistently under spent on defence | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
Taking it from a point where the US used to provide about half | :04:34. | :04:42. | |
of the Alliance's defence spending, to one where it's now 75% American. | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
This was a change election in the United States. | :04:49. | :04:50. | |
We have an administration with a very different | :04:51. | :04:53. | |
So there will be change, and I think the allies have to be | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
prepared to adapt but, hopefully, at the same time, | :04:58. | :05:00. | |
persuading the new US administration that Nato is a valuable asset | :05:01. | :05:02. | |
There are 28 countries in Nato and all are committed to a target | :05:03. | :05:10. | |
of spending 2% of their GDP on defence by 2024. | :05:11. | :05:17. | |
Five of them already do - USA, Greece, the UK, | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
Some are moving in the right direction. | :05:22. | :05:28. | |
But when you look at the bottom five, including some | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
of the Alliance's richest economies, they're spending under 1% | :05:33. | :05:34. | |
Less than half the target, with little chance of meeting it. | :05:35. | :05:44. | |
Add to the disagreements over resources, arguments about Russia | :05:45. | :05:47. | |
and you have a growing crisis in the Alliance. | :05:48. | :05:58. | |
President Trump wants a reset of relations with the Kremlin, | :05:59. | :06:00. | |
and if that means de facto recognition of Putin's | :06:01. | :06:02. | |
seizure of Crimea or indeed allowing him free rein | :06:03. | :06:04. | |
in the former Soviet Union, the divisions will get | :06:05. | :06:07. | |
Basically, ratifying the results of Russian aggression | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
in Ukraine I think would perhaps buy you some short-term tranquillity | :06:13. | :06:18. | |
but, in the end, it would create a much more unstable situation | :06:19. | :06:21. | |
in Europe, encourage the Russians to continue to press forward | :06:22. | :06:27. | |
for some kind of Yalta II with a new division of Europe | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
into spheres of influence which I think would bring back some | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
of the instability that we saw in previous decades. | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
Nato is now preparing forces to defend the Baltic Republics, | :06:40. | :06:42. | |
part of the Alliance, but once part of the USSR. | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
If Nato doesn't make a credible pledge to defend them, | :06:48. | :06:50. | |
There must be absolutely no doubt about the imperative of defending, | :06:51. | :06:57. | |
There can be no discussion or deals about 'zones of influence' | :06:58. | :07:04. | |
'new Yalta's', and that sort of thing, because that strikes | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
right at the heart of what Nato's about. | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
You always have to be prepared to walk. | :07:12. | :07:14. | |
It would be easy to blame Donald Trump for undermining Nato, | :07:15. | :07:17. | |
but European defence cuts have been going on for 25 years, | :07:18. | :07:19. | |
If there are tricky times ahead for the Alliance, | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
that's because many members now see things quite differently. | :07:24. | :07:35. | |
We need to know what Trump will do, what Putin will do, | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
what Brexit will look like - the cusp of change. | :07:40. | :07:41. | |
We can speak to our correspondents in Syria, Washington and London | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
about where the events of 2016 have left us. | :07:45. | :07:46. | |
I guess, so much uncertainty. Aleppo is the front-line and the human cost | :07:47. | :08:02. | |
of all this? Aleppo is at the top of the in-tray for leaders in many | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
capitals. It is the war of our time. It is in Syria a civil war, a | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
sectarian war, but it stopped being just about Syria a very long time | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
ago. It is also a proxy war with all of the regional big hitters, | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
including Saudi Arabia and Iran entangled in it. A new cold war with | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
Moscow and Washington as well. It's the humanitarian test of our time, | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
to use the United Nations phrase, and the world is failing Syria. On | :08:33. | :08:38. | |
its watch, almost every day here accusations of possible war crimes | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
by one side or the other. It is a terrible indictment of the | :08:44. | :08:46. | |
international community. Will it take a different turn come January | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
with a new United Nations Secretary General and a new President in the | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
White House? Everyone is watching certainly here. To Jon Sopel in | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
Washington. Listening to Lyse, you have to ask the question, Jon, how | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
much does the in-coming administration commend how much is | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
being suspended as we wait for Trump to begin? We wait for Trump to | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
appoint who will be his Secretary of State. We have had all the words | :09:15. | :09:23. | |
that Mark Urban played out. I was with with Rudy Giuliani hoping to be | :09:24. | :09:26. | |
Secretary of State, he said you have to look at Donald Trump's tweets in | :09:27. | :09:29. | |
the context of the start of a negotiation. This isn't what he | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
thinks. This is his starting point for a negotiation where you might | :09:34. | :09:41. | |
reach some centre ground. The other thing that Rudy Giuliani said is he | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
doesn't know much about foreign affairs and who gets appointed is | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
absolutely critical. I think the Secretary of State role will assume | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
much more importance than it did under Barack Obama because Donald | :09:54. | :09:56. | |
Trump is going to need to lean on whoever that Secretary of State is. | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
So the world is waiting for the US response. America is waiting to see | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
who the Secretary of State will be. Donald Trump, we know what his | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
instincts are. These are complex issues. We have no idea which way | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
he's going to jump on certain key policies. To Mark Urban now. If 2016 | :10:17. | :10:24. | |
was the year of shocks, what do you think 2017 is shaping up to be? I | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
think another very bad year for the West and the Western idea of what is | :10:31. | :10:33. | |
right. Let's look at some of the things that have been happening | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
recently. China, in the summer, refusing to accept arbitration over | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
a dispute with the Philippines in the South China Sea. South Africa | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
and Russia pulling out of the International Criminal Court. Donald | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
Trump saying he won't ratified the trans Pacific trade deal. The ideas | :10:51. | :10:53. | |
have been around for some time about what is right in terms of human | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
rights, trade, dispute resolution now being actively ignored in Aleppo | :10:58. | :11:03. | |
or in that case in the south can South China Sea challenged. The core | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
institutions of the West next year, the EU and Nato I think will also | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
face serious challenge. Mark, thank you. Thank you all very much indeed. | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
Well, the day began with comments from Boris Johnson | :11:17. | :11:18. | |
hitting the airwaves - he had candidly admitted | :11:19. | :11:21. | |
the Middle East had no strong leadership willing to reach out | :11:22. | :11:23. | |
That's why, he said, "you have Saudis, Iran | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
moving in, puppeteering and playing proxy wars." | :11:29. | :11:30. | |
It was written up as a gaff and Number Ten were quick | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
to distance themselves from the Foreign | :11:34. | :11:34. | |
But they echo feelings that come right from within the region itself. | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
The former President of Yemen, Ali Saleef, gave an exclusive | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
interview to the BBC Arabic's Nawal al-Maghafi today for an Our World | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
documentary, in which he agreed the strikes by Saudi on his country | :11:49. | :11:51. | |
Yemen's former president speaking there. | :11:52. | :13:49. | |
So how should we interpret those comments from Boris Johnson? | :13:50. | :13:52. | |
Or has he broken the cardinal rule of British diplomacy? | :13:53. | :14:01. | |
Our political editor, Nick Watt, is here. | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
What did Downing Street make of the remarks? There was a certain feeling | :14:06. | :14:11. | |
in Whitehall today that Theresa May hit the roof when she learned about | :14:12. | :14:14. | |
the reports that were reported in this morning's Guardian. She had | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
just returned from a visit to the Gulf where she met the King of Saudi | :14:19. | :14:22. | |
Arabia and there was incredulity that Boris Johnson made these | :14:23. | :14:24. | |
remarks last week knowing the Prime Minister would meet the king a few | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
days later. There was a sense that perhaps he was behaving as a | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
newspaper columnist thinking of headlines rather than as Britain's | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
chief diplomat. This morning, you got the slap down from Downing | :14:37. | :14:39. | |
Street in public where they said that these were his views and not | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
the government's views and that was really knocking him down a peg or | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
two. Because if the Foreign Secretary speaks for himself and not | :14:48. | :14:53. | |
for Britain, he's really going to struggle to establish credibility on | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
the world stage. So any response from Boris Johnson today to that? I | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
think there's a feeling in Boris Johnson's circle that the use of the | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
word property was unwise but there's irritation that Downing Street gave | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
the story a new lease of life why publicly rebuking him in that way. | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
-- the word property. He is going to travel to the region in the next few | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
days and go to Saudi Arabia and my senses he's not going to be in | :15:20. | :15:22. | |
apology mode because essentially, what he's going to say that the | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
Saudis know what he thinks because this is he tells them in private, | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
significantly, an official advice. But what is really interesting is I | :15:33. | :15:35. | |
get the impression that Boris Johnson think that after the | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
election of Donald Trump, the downfall of Matteo Renzi after the | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
Italian referendum, we are in a new world and in that new world, it can | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
be refreshing if you can hear in public what is being said behind | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
closed doors and in this case, has been said behind closed doors for 15 | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
years. Briefly, do you think there is a hint we might have more of | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
this? I think that Boris Johnson really does feel quite strongly that | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
there is a new world out there. He understands it, if, in a sense, he | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
was part of that new world because of course he was one of the leading | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
lights, and there is an argument we may not be talking about leaving the | :16:17. | :16:19. | |
European Union were it not for Boris Johnson's decision to endorse and | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
campaign to leave. Interesting. Thank you for joining us. | :16:24. | :16:26. | |
Joining us now, Sean O'Grady from the Independent and Jill Rutter | :16:27. | :16:29. | |
Lovely to have you here. Do you think it is right that we have now | :16:30. | :16:38. | |
entered a different era, a different age? We have to rewrite the rules a | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
bit of how diplomacy is done? I think there's a lot in that and I | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
think it is perfectly true that people, fairly obviously, over the | :16:49. | :16:51. | |
last year or more, have got very tired of politicians missing their | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
words, not saying what they think. There was a lack of authenticity in | :16:56. | :17:01. | |
political life and I think what has happened with the Brexit vote and | :17:02. | :17:04. | |
drum and what is happening on the continent of Europe in some cases, | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
for various reasons and sometimes it is the radical right and sometimes a | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
bit more the radical left to benefit from it, people are looking for | :17:13. | :17:15. | |
politicians who say what they mean and mean what they say. And I think | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
they have been lacking that and I think that if the politicians then | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
choose to make a populist appeal, so much the better for them and they | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
are benefiting from it. There's a huge sort of global peasants revolt | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
which is happening at the moment. There will be plenty of support for | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
that, would there? A politician who says it as it is and is admired for | :17:37. | :17:42. | |
doing so. I think you really need to differentiate a bit between | :17:43. | :17:45. | |
politicians and government. I think one of the things that is quite | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
interesting is I think you are right, people want politicians who | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
are prepared not just to spout lines to take and things like that but | :17:55. | :17:57. | |
it's a bit different when you are talking about government and | :17:58. | :18:00. | |
government positions which is quite interesting -- why it's quite | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
interesting number ten have had to clarify, have been spending the last | :18:05. | :18:07. | |
three or four months clarifying a lot of their ministers. Quite often, | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
a minister goes out and freelance is a bit and comes back and number ten | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
said it was their position, not the government position. It may be a | :18:16. | :18:18. | |
considered view that it is actually better to foment a bit of debate and | :18:19. | :18:25. | |
there's only one person who authentically speaks for the | :18:26. | :18:27. | |
government, which is Theresa May, and everyone else is doing their own | :18:28. | :18:30. | |
thing but it gets a bit awkward. We've had one area and Heathrow | :18:31. | :18:33. | |
where they have formally suspended collective responsibility -- | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
collective responsibility. What does Boris Johnson do now? When he goes | :18:38. | :18:40. | |
to the Middle East, does he stick with his line or the government's? | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
If I was him, I would stick to the Boris Johnson line. So he set | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
himself at odds with the UK Government permanently? Orange | :18:50. | :18:51. | |
Mackreth I think they can live with it and I think we can as well. What | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
he has done is bring ethics into foreign policy, just like that. | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
Nobody has noticed but we now have a liberal Foreign Secretary, in | :19:01. | :19:03. | |
effect, operating in ethical foreign policy. There was this idea that we | :19:04. | :19:10. | |
can deal with a government that sends out different messages? Think | :19:11. | :19:12. | |
about being the receiving government, you have someone coming | :19:13. | :19:15. | |
and are they speaking for the country from which they come or not? | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
That is when it gets really complicated. In a sense, you almost | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
devalue the Foreign Secretary's visit because it's not the | :19:24. | :19:26. | |
government. Theresa May says those things in private to the Saudi | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
government anyway, we understand so he's just taking it out of the | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
shadows and putting it into the public sphere. What he's doing, the | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
point is for 50, 60, 70 years, diplomats, the Foreign Office, what | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
people are unkindly call the Camel Corps, those people have been doing | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
quiet diplomacy, behind-the-scenes diplomacy, talking and lobbying in | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
secret and then they go to the banquet and so forth and they are | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
very polite and at best you have a coded message. It is not doing any | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
good in Yemen. Boris Johnson is completely right. Everyone knows it, | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
there's a proxy war going on in Yemen between Iran and Saudi Arabia. | :20:05. | :20:07. | |
And other parts of the Middle East as well. If we don't call them out, | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
as Boris Johnson has done, then you go along with the spin and you just | :20:14. | :20:16. | |
get nowhere. People suffer as a result. Like the no collective | :20:17. | :20:23. | |
responsibility, maybe it's a small point in the great scale of things | :20:24. | :20:26. | |
but there is no point of which you hold the government to it count for | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
anything they have said? But there wasn't anything Boris Johnson said | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
that was actually rude. He was just telling them what they know already. | :20:35. | :20:37. | |
It is like telling the king he's got a beard. May but I think the | :20:38. | :20:43. | |
interesting thing is if there is an explicit strategy that you want to | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
maybe pincer attack, the Foreign Secretary saying one thing and the | :20:48. | :20:50. | |
Prime Minister saying another thing and that is agreed in advance and | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
they know and the Foreign Secretary knows the Prime Minister might | :20:55. | :20:57. | |
distance herself slightly from him, then I think that's fine. If | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
actually, what you are getting is two people shooting off in slightly | :21:02. | :21:04. | |
different directions, whatever they are saying privately behind closed | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
doors, I think that makes for policy incoherence and I don't think it is | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
terribly helpful and it does not help advance British interests. Do | :21:13. | :21:19. | |
you think he did it deliberately? That he was happy for it to be | :21:20. | :21:22. | |
picked up? That is the hint we are getting. I'm not a Boris reader, he | :21:23. | :21:25. | |
might live next door to the Institute by telepathy does not go | :21:26. | :21:27. | |
through the walls. It's interesting, he's relatively new to a senior | :21:28. | :21:33. | |
cabinet position and as mayor of London, it was OK to say things on | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
your own account, the same way that Donald Trump can still say things on | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
his own account. Once you are a senior government minister, you are | :21:42. | :21:44. | |
expected to be able to talk for the government. That's an interesting | :21:45. | :21:47. | |
point because on one level, it is not very collegiate, he's used to | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
being the Boris Johnson figure. Is there a bit of megalomania coming | :21:53. | :21:58. | |
into this? I wouldn't call it that. He's a top-ranked politician. They | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
are all megalomaniacs. So you would? It's not so unusual in that line of | :22:04. | :22:09. | |
work. But he is one of, like quite a few of them, those who is not | :22:10. | :22:12. | |
necessarily a very good team player which is not helped by the fact he's | :22:13. | :22:15. | |
a journalist because journalists like to tell the truth every so | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
often, as you know. He's not one of those people who is inclined to | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
follow his lead are always and everywhere. If we move this slightly | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
away from Boris, the bigger question is perhaps when you look at the | :22:29. | :22:31. | |
institutions, and I listed them at the beginning of the programme, you | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
look at what Nato is trying to do, not very successfully and what EU | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
leaders are trying to do, not very successfully, they can make the | :22:40. | :22:42. | |
minutes and these emissions and the summit and all the rest of it but | :22:43. | :22:45. | |
Barnsley, the world has failed in the Middle East, it's failed to so | :22:46. | :22:55. | |
-- solve the war and diplomacy does not work as we know. Does something | :22:56. | :22:58. | |
you need to happen even if it comes from a strong statement? I think | :22:59. | :23:00. | |
it's really interesting, I think there's a good case for saying that | :23:01. | :23:02. | |
actually, we need political leaders generally who are prepared much more | :23:03. | :23:05. | |
to level and expose the real choices that they face and have a much more | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
honest conversation, whether it is an foreign policy or domestic | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
policy, with the population. Whether actually, the events of this year | :23:14. | :23:16. | |
have shown there is a real public appetite for that or not, I'm not so | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
sure I would read it that way but I think there are lots of areas where | :23:21. | :23:25. | |
there is almost a sort of conspiracy of not asking difficult questions | :23:26. | :23:28. | |
between the political class which means that actually, there's a | :23:29. | :23:33. | |
divorced from reality. I think actually, a general move towards | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
having more debates in public and actually being prepared to admit you | :23:38. | :23:40. | |
don't know things, that some things are difficult, that sometimes you | :23:41. | :23:43. | |
will make the wrong choice, will actually improve the quality of | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
public debate enormously. I think that's different from shooting off | :23:48. | :23:50. | |
in different directions, though, because it seems like a good thing | :23:51. | :23:53. | |
to say at the time. I don't know if that is what he was doing a lot but | :23:54. | :23:56. | |
I don't think you can run government on that basis. Thank you for joining | :23:57. | :23:58. | |
us. Anyone who's devoted hours | :23:59. | :24:00. | |
of the last week watching the intricate and detailed legal | :24:01. | :24:02. | |
argument of the Supreme Court will perhaps have noticed one | :24:03. | :24:04. | |
extraordinary thing - The make up of the UK's highest | :24:05. | :24:06. | |
court, in other words, has been overwhelmingly old, | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
male and white. Chris Cooke's going to | :24:11. | :24:12. | |
have a go at explaining. One striking feature | :24:13. | :24:18. | |
of the Supreme Court is, for a public body, how pale, | :24:19. | :24:20. | |
male and old it is. All white, when 13% of the country | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
is from an ethnic minority. Only one woman of 11 | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
Justices, all aged over 60. Supreme Court Justices need | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
decades of experience. Half the population are women, | :24:36. | :24:43. | |
but only one Justice is, Lady Hale. According to a study | :24:44. | :24:54. | |
of 34 Supreme Courts from around the world, | :24:55. | :24:56. | |
that low representation puts us Now, only 16% of judges in England | :24:57. | :24:59. | |
and Wales over 60 are women. So it's partly a reflection of legal | :25:00. | :25:08. | |
recruitment of 40 years 34% of 50-something judges are women | :25:09. | :25:10. | |
and 47% of 40 to 49-year-old judges. Yet there remains a lack | :25:11. | :25:22. | |
of women across the top In the Court of Appeal, only seven | :25:23. | :25:24. | |
of the 38 Justices are women. So there's a problem in the pipeline | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
for women to the senior judiciary. There's not just an absence | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
of ethnic minority judges in the Supreme Court, | :25:36. | :25:41. | |
there are no Court of Appeal minority judges either, | :25:42. | :25:44. | |
and only 5% of High Court judges There's also a basic | :25:45. | :25:46. | |
recruitment problem here, Only 9% of Justices in England | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
and Wales, under 40, The minority population share | :25:52. | :25:58. | |
of adults, aged 25 to 40 in Britain, Building a judiciary which better | :25:59. | :26:03. | |
reflects the country Karon Monaghan QC wrote a review | :26:04. | :26:20. | |
into judicial diversity in 2014 and Matthew Ryder QC is London's deputy | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
mayor for social integration, social mobility and community. Nice to have | :26:26. | :26:28. | |
you both here. I wonder if you think it actually matters? Does it matter | :26:29. | :26:34. | |
if they don't look like their country they represent necessarily? | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
Yes, I think it does. I think it matters for reasons of democratic | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
legitimacy. We saw this week the Supreme Court dealing with some of | :26:44. | :26:46. | |
the most important constitutional issues that are likely to be | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
confronted in law and looking at a court that bears no resemblance to | :26:52. | :26:54. | |
those who are likely to be affected by the decisions they will in due | :26:55. | :27:00. | |
course make really calls into question whether or not we can | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
really buy into that. Secondly, I think it's important because it | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
makes a difference. It makes a difference, certainly in some cases, | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
to the outcome. You actually think it changes the way... In a small | :27:14. | :27:20. | |
number of cases, I think, yes. And I say that based on experience of | :27:21. | :27:23. | |
being in the Supreme Court but also, I say it because senior judges say | :27:24. | :27:31. | |
it, senior women judges said. I find that fascinating, do you think your | :27:32. | :27:34. | |
own perspective has changed? Would you agree with that as well? -- has | :27:35. | :27:41. | |
changed an outcome? We bring different experiences and in a | :27:42. | :27:44. | |
collegiate cord, women and other minorities will bring other | :27:45. | :27:47. | |
experiences which will inform the ultimate decision. So it's not just | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
about the way law is read? Matthew, you feel, you had a very different | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
experience coming in to a predominantly all-white, mail... | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
Yeah, and I think I'm an adviser on the David Lammy review which is | :28:03. | :28:05. | |
looking at this termination the criminal justice system and the | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
interim findings have said 51% of British-born non-white people don't | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
have confidence in the criminal justice system. Now whether that is | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
well founded on the evidence or not is almost not the issue because the | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
concern is the confidence within the judiciary and the level to which it | :28:23. | :28:25. | |
has legitimacy to the public it is serving. So I agree, it is a really | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
important reason why the judiciary, we really need a judiciary that does | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
an important public service that looks like the community it serves. | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
The second point is that you say you find interesting I think is an | :28:40. | :28:42. | |
interesting phenomenon because when you get a diversity of experience at | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
a judge level, at the lower level of courts as well, particularly, you | :28:47. | :28:52. | |
know, when judges are dealing with facts and understanding communities | :28:53. | :28:55. | |
and understanding where people come from, a wealth of experience can be | :28:56. | :28:58. | |
really important. That doesn't mean you can't put yourself in someone | :28:59. | :29:02. | |
else's shoes but it means that the broader breadth of experience you | :29:03. | :29:05. | |
have do draw on from the judiciary, the more likely you are to get | :29:06. | :29:08. | |
people that understand the points in front of them. There are levers for | :29:09. | :29:15. | |
change, are there? On one hand, you could say these are the finest legal | :29:16. | :29:18. | |
minds and they have endless experience and they are at the end | :29:19. | :29:21. | |
of their career so they are naturally going to be older. So | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
there are levers. One, we have traditionally appointed from the | :29:28. | :29:30. | |
Court of Appeal, as you referred to, or the High Court for the Supreme | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
Court judges. And they are predominantly white and male. So if | :29:35. | :29:37. | |
we use that as the pool, inevitably we will have a cord which is | :29:38. | :29:45. | |
constituted by those who are represented in the scene Yu courts | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
below. Lord Sumption jumped straight up. He was the first person to do so | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
in about half a century and he was of course, a white man educated at | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
Eton and Oxford, unfortunately. So we can widen the pool, there's no | :29:59. | :30:01. | |
reason we have to recruit from that pool. We widen the pool by, for | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
example, advertising for academics, for those who are employed lawyers | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
and so on, a more diverse cohort and there is also a mechanism within the | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
law that exists now which allows for women to be preferred in cases where | :30:15. | :30:21. | |
they are of equal merit as compared to a man. And that can be a useful | :30:22. | :30:30. | |
tool if properly used. To ensure that there is greater diversity but | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
so far, there's been considerable reluctance both in extending the | :30:36. | :30:38. | |
pool and using that tool. Looking at the pipeline, as it were, the gender | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
problem seems to correct itself because there are many more women | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
coming through. When you look at the ethnic minorities, one thing that is | :30:48. | :30:49. | |
extraordinary is that throughout school, it tends to be ethnic | :30:50. | :30:53. | |
minority kids that outperform white kids. Why doesn't that follow | :30:54. | :30:58. | |
through then into such a strong part of the astonishment? You're talking | :30:59. | :31:01. | |
about a couple of things, firstly, a legacy. As you pointed out, judges | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
are of a certain age and a certain point in their careers. We change | :31:06. | :31:08. | |
the system of how we appointed judges about ten years ago and as a | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
result, we are looking at... Radically changed, a much more | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
transparent system, a way, a judicial appointments commission | :31:18. | :31:19. | |
which is not about a tap on the shoulder from people you know but is | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
a much more objective system. Ten years later, we are looking at what | :31:24. | :31:26. | |
has happened but it takes time for it to flush through. At the same | :31:27. | :31:29. | |
time, it is really important to emphasise, you asked about | :31:30. | :31:32. | |
experience, my experience of first sitting as a judge is that the | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
judges I sat with were enormously welcoming and very positive and that | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
was great but it's almost not the point. The point is, you need to | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
make sure there are more able people from ethnic minorities feeling they | :31:45. | :31:47. | |
can apply and there needs to be more rigour, trying to find them. The | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
important point to note, if I can make two quick points, firstly, | :31:52. | :31:55. | |
everybody in the debate pretty much agree is that you have to maintain | :31:56. | :31:59. | |
the very high standard of the Ingush judiciary. Everyone in the debate | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
also agreed that we can't continue with the same lack of diversity in | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
the judiciary we have now. -- English judiciary. It's a given | :32:09. | :32:11. | |
everyone understands that and we are just tried to find the best way to | :32:12. | :32:12. | |
get there quickly. Barristers are employed on a | :32:13. | :32:22. | |
case-by-case basis. You can't have a system that is corrected from within | :32:23. | :32:29. | |
the inside, as it were You looked to a broader cohort. You look outside | :32:30. | :32:36. | |
the self-employed Bar and look to academia. At the Supreme Court level | :32:37. | :32:39. | |
you don't need to have those who excel at the Bar. The judiciary as a | :32:40. | :32:45. | |
whole you will not look outside? At the senior levels, there is no | :32:46. | :32:50. | |
reason why not. We should be more progressive about the way we recruit | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
at first instance senior level by, for example, adopting the equal | :32:56. | :33:02. | |
merit provision identified. I'm less optimistic about Matthew who, I | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
think if I understood him correctly, is suggesting that things will | :33:07. | :33:13. | |
change. Can I just say. Of course. We have had 14 white men appointed | :33:14. | :33:21. | |
since Lady Hale was appointed. Cannot be each and every one of | :33:22. | :33:24. | |
those men is better than the best of the women who could have been | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
appointed. I think we need to do something more compelling there. I | :33:29. | :33:31. | |
do think it's important... In the context of the job I do for the | :33:32. | :33:36. | |
Mayor of London. He doesn't have anything to do with the judiciary, | :33:37. | :33:43. | |
when you talk about broader service. You cannot, when have you a problem | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
with diversity in the public service, you cannot be complacent. | :33:48. | :33:50. | |
You cannot be complacent. The opposite. What I'm saying is, the | :33:51. | :33:56. | |
worst thing you can do is take the view - it will be all right, time | :33:57. | :33:59. | |
will sort it out. It won't. Absolutely. Have you to be rigorous. | :34:00. | :34:05. | |
As long as you are engaged in that conversation with the profession, | :34:06. | :34:08. | |
with other people making sure you have the right kind of levers that | :34:09. | :34:12. | |
you are pulling, that is #2350i7b. Fine. You can't expect it will sort | :34:13. | :34:21. | |
it self out, because it won't. Thank you very much. | :34:22. | :34:25. | |
If you've made it this far into the programme, | :34:26. | :34:27. | |
it can only mean that you're as keen as I am to hear from our | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
crepuscular culture correspondent, Stephen Smith. | :34:32. | :34:32. | |
And tonight's effort should be pretty good for once, | :34:33. | :34:34. | |
as he's joined by one of our most garlanded and best-loved | :34:35. | :34:37. | |
At the height of Beatlemania in the '60s, Miss Clark | :34:38. | :34:40. | |
was the female face of the "British invasion" of America, | :34:41. | :34:43. | |
where she enjoyed 15 consecutive hit singles. | :34:44. | :34:44. | |
Now aged 84, she came into Newsnight's storied rehearsal | :34:45. | :34:47. | |
rooms to sing from her new album, From Now On, and to talk | :34:48. | :34:50. | |
about evading an amorous Elvis, taking career advice | :34:51. | :34:52. | |
from John Lennon and the transcendent therapy of...ironing. | :34:53. | :34:54. | |
Stephen's report includes a little colourful language and the usual | :34:55. | :34:56. | |
# Downtown, where all the lights are bright | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
# Downtown, waiting for us tonight...#. | :35:01. | :35:10. | |
When The Beatles weren't topping the American charts | :35:11. | :35:12. | |
But when she found herself having a hard time with | :35:13. | :35:20. | |
audiences in bilingual Canada, of all places, she turned | :35:21. | :35:23. | |
There they were, John and Yoko, sitting up in bed, you | :35:24. | :35:26. | |
John said, "Hey, what's the matter with you?" | :35:27. | :35:30. | |
And he was so sweet and wise and funny and he gave | :35:31. | :35:37. | |
me a piece of advice which I can't repeat. | :35:38. | :35:40. | |
Even in front of a grown-up like you. | :35:41. | :35:42. | |
"Well, thank you for that advice, John." | :35:43. | :35:52. | |
He said, "Go and have a drink in the living room". | :35:53. | :35:54. | |
They had a suite, so I went into the living room | :35:55. | :35:57. | |
and there were people humming along to this simple little | :35:58. | :35:59. | |
song that was coming over the loudspeaker. | :36:00. | :36:08. | |
They gave us a lyric and we all started singing it. | :36:09. | :36:11. | |
And little did I know that we were all being recorded. | :36:12. | :36:24. | |
Capping a long and distinguished career, Miss Clark joined us to | :36:25. | :36:32. | |
record a prestigious Newsnight session with a song from her new | :36:33. | :36:34. | |
# Never thought I'd ever feel this way again | :36:35. | :36:41. | |
# But here it is so why try to explain | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
I insist on having an iron and an ironing board in my dressing | :36:45. | :37:00. | |
room, because that's my, that's my therapy, before I go on. | :37:01. | :37:03. | |
Do you take like the week's wash in and do them or just... | :37:04. | :37:12. | |
..or just the blouse you are performing in? | :37:13. | :37:15. | |
No, my musicians did suggest perhaps I did their shirts | :37:16. | :37:18. | |
# I've heard it all a million times before #. | :37:19. | :37:25. | |
Like other female stars, Lulu, Cilla Black, Petula Clark had her | :37:26. | :37:28. | |
own TV series in the supposedly less-enlightened '60s. | :37:29. | :37:31. | |
# Don't sleep in the subway, darling | :37:32. | :37:33. | |
What does she make of today's younger singers? | :37:34. | :37:42. | |
A lot of them seem to be trying to sound like someone | :37:43. | :37:45. | |
I suppose that's understandable when you're starting | :37:46. | :37:47. | |
But, you know, the trick is to find your sound | :37:48. | :37:58. | |
Find a sound that other people will want to imitate. | :37:59. | :38:08. | |
# Well, I've lost my soul, what's wrong with me #. | :38:09. | :38:11. | |
At the height of her fame, Miss Clark found herself in Elvis | :38:12. | :38:14. | |
Presley's dressing room in Vegas, alone apart from the singer Karen | :38:15. | :38:16. | |
It was quite obvious that he was impressed at seeing us. | :38:17. | :38:20. | |
I mean, he was gorgeous, and let's face it, | :38:21. | :38:26. | |
Karen and I were the top two women singers in the world, you know. | :38:27. | :38:30. | |
And I said, "Elvis, that was so great. | :38:31. | :38:40. | |
Thank you for the drink, blah blah blah", and we scuttled out of | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
And as I left, I turned round and Elvis was standing at the door, | :38:46. | :38:50. | |
# But I love you the way you are | :38:51. | :38:59. | |
The papers. The Mail, a decision that MPs and military chiefs are | :39:00. | :39:26. | |
calling "disgraceful." It's by The Police Service of Northern Ireland | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
to re-examine every British Army killing during The Troubles. | :39:32. | :39:41. | |
In the Times. A story with a headline, aid blown on foreign | :39:42. | :39:50. | |
luxury. Hundreds of millions pounds of aid have been poured into hotels | :39:51. | :40:01. | |
and rest rants. This is a revelation about the Times about the | :40:02. | :40:04. | |
government's private equity decision. Claims it make as lasting | :40:05. | :40:09. | |
difference to people's lives. In the Guardian, photo that will shock you. | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
To talk you through that. In case you can't see the small pribt print. | :40:15. | :40:20. | |
This is by Alison Jackson, the artist famous for the satirical | :40:21. | :40:30. | |
photos posed by lookalikes. She was saying she was outraged by lawyers | :40:31. | :40:40. | |
warningings that a President might sue to restrict artistic freedom. | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
But just before we go, there was news this evening that | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
John Glenn, the first American to orbit the Earth, has died. | :40:49. | :40:50. | |
We thought there would be no more fitting tribute than the footage | :40:51. | :40:53. | |
Coming down on a ten, circles are open. | :40:54. | :41:27. | |
Recondition at 10,800 feet and beautiful choux chute. | :41:28. | :41:53. | |
It it looks as though we will start off on a | :41:54. | :41:54. |