14/12/2016 Newsnight


14/12/2016

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis.


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A ceasefire and evacuation may now be back on,

:00:21.:00:28.

but in Aleppo, even defeat is not straightforward.

:00:29.:00:36.

We'll ask how you bring a multiparty war like this to an end.

:00:37.:00:39.

THE IDEA THAT YOU WOULD TARGET A PLAYGROUND? AND BOMB KIDS? Hoping

:00:40.:00:55.

that he would then convince people to give up because you had killed

:00:56.:01:00.

their kids? What kind of a second mind comes up with a strategy like

:01:01.:01:01.

that? if there is any meaningful action

:01:02.:01:03.

to add to the strong words. Also tonight, does Labour

:01:04.:01:08.

have a problem in the North? We return to the

:01:09.:01:10.

Brexit-voting town of Burnley. When we got the Gordon Brown...

:01:11.:01:16.

man come and... The things he did on the TV

:01:17.:01:19.

really put me off Labour, and I thought, "Hmm,

:01:20.:01:21.

they're not actually ordinary that Labour has to learn

:01:22.:01:23.

to be less metropolitan. Battles are meant to end

:01:24.:01:38.

when one side wins them, and Bashar al-Assad's forces

:01:39.:01:42.

have won eastern Aleppo. But the end of the suffering

:01:43.:01:44.

there has been delayed. Yesterday, the hope was that

:01:45.:01:47.

the rebels and trapped civilians would be able to retreat

:01:48.:01:50.

from their enclave in eastern Aleppo and the evacuation buses

:01:51.:01:53.

sent back to the depot. There are suggestions tonight

:01:54.:01:59.

that it is in prospect again. In a conflict so brutal and bitter,

:02:00.:02:03.

even when there is a deal to be struck to the mutual

:02:04.:02:06.

benefit of the combatants, it is formidably difficult

:02:07.:02:09.

to settle it. The UN human-rights chief

:02:10.:02:11.

suggested it may be a war crime for killing to continue

:02:12.:02:14.

at this point in the battle. David Grossman has been

:02:15.:02:23.

following events for us today. Reporting from the rubble of Aleppo,

:02:24.:02:42.

this film-maker has gathered material from Syria for Newsnight

:02:43.:02:44.

during this conflict. Today you can hear in the

:02:45.:02:55.

background, and in his voice, the ceasefire has failed.

:02:56.:03:15.

Earlier in the day, we had the perfect metaphor for that dashed

:03:16.:04:39.

hope. The row of buses lined up to ferry civilians to safety closed

:04:40.:04:44.

their doors and believe empty. Every time a ceasefire has been

:04:45.:04:49.

negotiated, in the last months, they have collapsed, and they have not

:04:50.:04:52.

succeeded. This time there are reports that the Iranian militia has

:04:53.:04:56.

started fighting again. There are now reports of the Syrian army

:04:57.:05:01.

saying there were more rebels there than they thought initially, so it

:05:02.:05:09.

was a kind of logistical thing. The Syrian leader, Bashar al-Assad,

:05:10.:05:12.

appeared on Russian state television today to criticise the West for, he

:05:13.:05:17.

said, caring only about the casualties from one side in this

:05:18.:05:25.

desperate conflict. Western officials and the mainstream media,

:05:26.:05:27.

they are worried about the civilians. They are not worried when

:05:28.:05:31.

the opposite happens, when the terrorists are killing those

:05:32.:05:35.

civilians or attacking Palmyra and destroying the human heritage, not

:05:36.:05:43.

only Syrian heritage. If he thought this would check US criticism of his

:05:44.:05:46.

actions and those of his Russian allies, this afternoon's strong

:05:47.:05:50.

comments Robbie White as we'll have corrected this mass apprehension. --

:05:51.:05:55.

from the White House. These tactics are depraved, they cross every line

:05:56.:05:59.

that I can think of. And frankly they cross lines I hadn't previously

:06:00.:06:03.

thought. The idea that you would target a playground? And bomb kids?

:06:04.:06:09.

Hoping that you would then convince people to give up because you had

:06:10.:06:15.

killed their kids? What kind of a sick mind comes up with a strategy

:06:16.:06:20.

like that? And what kind of civilised country is going to

:06:21.:06:24.

support those tactics? But that is what Russia has done.

:06:25.:06:29.

But the impotence of Western powers in this conflict is obvious. The UK

:06:30.:06:33.

Government sources have told the BBC that it will use drones and

:06:34.:06:36.

satellite imagery to gather evidence of possible war crimes in Aleppo - a

:06:37.:06:42.

thread perhaps, but what we cannot do, it seems, is stop the atrocities

:06:43.:06:48.

from happening. David Grossman there. If you want to see more from

:06:49.:06:53.

that extraordinary piece of film at the beginning of the piece, the

:06:54.:06:57.

cameraman in Aleppo, we will be putting that up on the Newsnight

:06:58.:07:01.

YouTube channel. It will be there a little later.

:07:02.:07:02.

I am joined now by the author and journalist Patrick Cockburn

:07:03.:07:05.

and Lina Khatib, who is the head of the Middle East and North Africa

:07:06.:07:08.

Patrick, the level of brutality, is this unique for this war? No,

:07:09.:07:20.

unfortunately. It has been brutal from the beginning, extraordinarily

:07:21.:07:24.

brutal. So it is really almost typical of what we have seen before.

:07:25.:07:30.

So we are obviously seeing perhaps more of it than we have in the past,

:07:31.:07:34.

and certainly the Americans have upped the ante in terms of the

:07:35.:07:39.

language they are using to describe it. Yes, it is more visible, it is a

:07:40.:07:44.

bigger place, East Aleppo, the district in Damascus, I have been

:07:45.:07:52.

around them, the level of destruction there is equal. But it

:07:53.:07:57.

has been an extraordinarily violent war already since it started in

:07:58.:08:02.

2011. And do you agree? This is the way this war is being conducted, and

:08:03.:08:07.

this is not perhaps as exceptional as we are saying? We have to

:08:08.:08:11.

remember it is not just Aleppo that is being bombarded right now. Other

:08:12.:08:18.

areas in Syria, occupied by rebels, according to the regime, are being

:08:19.:08:22.

bombed with the same intensity. It live is one such area. Are the

:08:23.:08:27.

rebels doing the same? Obviously they cannot bomb, but are they as

:08:28.:08:33.

violent as the regime? Of course the rebels are fighting, so they are

:08:34.:08:37.

engaged in attacks on regime held areas, but they do not have an air

:08:38.:08:43.

force, and therefore no matter, you know they could not be as brutal

:08:44.:08:49.

even if they wanted to. Can we talk about the evacuation? A lot of the

:08:50.:08:52.

assessment of this rest on whether the folks stuck out in eastern

:08:53.:08:56.

Aleppo can get out if they want to do so safely, and they clearly seem

:08:57.:09:00.

to think that they are not safe if they leave. Patrick, we have other

:09:01.:09:04.

experience in Syria? What does that tell us about what the Syrian

:09:05.:09:08.

government does to people when they surrender? Well, they have this

:09:09.:09:13.

programme of ceasefires that are, as you say, in practice surrenders.

:09:14.:09:18.

Some people stay in that area or go over to the government side, but a

:09:19.:09:22.

lot of the fighters and their families, other sympathisers, are

:09:23.:09:31.

generally bussed to Idlib province, under rebel control. That is one of

:09:32.:09:35.

the optimistic things that is happening, supposing the government

:09:36.:09:38.

kills a lot of these people, who it says they are going to evacuate,

:09:39.:09:43.

then every other besieged rebel stronghold is going to fight to the

:09:44.:09:46.

end, because there will be no reason for them to surrender. So it is in

:09:47.:09:51.

the interest of the government to treat them reasonably well? Very

:09:52.:09:55.

much so, because they have regained... We talk about Aleppo,

:09:56.:10:06.

but if we can control the the large part of Damascus, it is not in their

:10:07.:10:10.

interest that it should stop. We hear that people are being offered

:10:11.:10:15.

passage to Idlib, but that is a place that is obviously the last

:10:16.:10:20.

rebel holdout, and a lot of rebels have been sent there. One wonders

:10:21.:10:23.

what the Syrian government is planning for Idlib. Yeah, exactly, I

:10:24.:10:29.

think what is happening is an attempt to squeeze the rebels in

:10:30.:10:34.

this area of Idlib, and we are talking about a very big area. And

:10:35.:10:39.

afterwards, I expect that the regime and Russia and their allies will not

:10:40.:10:45.

stop and just let them, you know, kind of exist in Idlib. Already the

:10:46.:10:49.

bombing is ongoing, and I expect after the Battle of Aleppo, we will

:10:50.:10:54.

see a follow-up, which is possibly a siege in Idlib, but followed by

:10:55.:10:58.

intent of the gate of air strikes. There is one thing I want to

:10:59.:11:03.

mention, the Damascus government and the Iranians, there are two Shia

:11:04.:11:11.

towns west of Aleppo that have been besieged, and I think they are

:11:12.:11:14.

genuinely worried about what happened to them, and I want to get

:11:15.:11:19.

their people out of there. It is not purely about Aleppo. We do not

:11:20.:11:24.

really here about these towns of the media, here, but it is something

:11:25.:11:28.

that weighs very strongly not just with the Syrian government but with

:11:29.:11:32.

the whole Shia community. Do you think the media coverage is

:11:33.:11:36.

imbalanced in any way, Patrick? Well, compared to Mosul, it turns

:11:37.:11:42.

out that it is mostly or entirely the fault of Daesh, Isis there, and

:11:43.:11:46.

they are holding civilians as human shields. While over in Aleppo, it is

:11:47.:11:52.

entirely the fault of the government, but actually there are

:11:53.:11:55.

many similarities between the two, that you have jihadis basically

:11:56.:12:01.

controlling a place, they are under attack from governments, shell fire,

:12:02.:12:06.

bombs being dropped, lots of civilians get killed. So there are

:12:07.:12:10.

strong parallels between the two, they are not exactly the same, but

:12:11.:12:14.

there are parallels. But the danger in this is that some people might

:12:15.:12:17.

think that East Aleppo is being controlled by Daesh, when it is not,

:12:18.:12:23.

or that the majority of rebels in eased Aleppo are jihadists and are

:12:24.:12:29.

extremist jihadists at that. And the situation, as you know, is a lot

:12:30.:12:33.

more complex than that. It is complex, but you have Al-Nusra,

:12:34.:12:37.

which I know it says has separated from Al-Qaeda, but the links are

:12:38.:12:42.

still the plans. But the other is not designated as a terrorist

:12:43.:12:51.

organisation. In terms of the international community's role, was

:12:52.:12:56.

this inevitable, but it was so brutal? The George Osborne line, it

:12:57.:13:01.

did not come out of a vacuum, it was created by a vacuum, a lack of

:13:02.:13:05.

leadership from the US. I think history has been rewritten, and

:13:06.:13:09.

things that governments could not have done, this was a genuine civil

:13:10.:13:14.

war, people deeply committed on both sides to fight. If Britain, America

:13:15.:13:20.

had come in 2013, and Assad had gone, would the war had ended? No,

:13:21.:13:25.

you would just have had a new type of war, maybe you would have at

:13:26.:13:30.

Daesh in Damascus instead. So I am sure he thinks that he is doing the

:13:31.:13:35.

right thing, but in fact it is really a very simple-minded account

:13:36.:13:42.

of what happened. How does it end? I mean, this is ridiculous as a last

:13:43.:13:45.

question, but what does the government do? Do the rebels get

:13:46.:13:50.

defeated, or do they become bandits in the hills who come down and

:13:51.:13:53.

create trouble for Assad if he manages to get control of the

:13:54.:13:59.

country? One of the things we have to remember is that the grievances

:14:00.:14:03.

which have led people to protest against Assad, plus the atrocities

:14:04.:14:07.

created by the regime, are not going away any time soon, meaning even if

:14:08.:14:12.

the rebels are defeated militarily, these grievances will remain, and

:14:13.:14:16.

unless they are addressed, we are going to sit long-term instability

:14:17.:14:19.

in Syria, regardless of the kind of political settlement that might

:14:20.:14:25.

happen at some point. And therefore I think that we shouldn't just focus

:14:26.:14:29.

on the battle of Aleppo and think, this is the beginning of the end. It

:14:30.:14:36.

is just another one. Absolutely, unless there is a political

:14:37.:14:41.

transition in Syria that changes the regime, replaces it with a

:14:42.:14:44.

transitional government that has wider representation from all sides.

:14:45.:14:47.

I am joined now by Ambassador James Jeffrey from Washington.

:14:48.:14:49.

He was US ambassador to Iraq and Turkey.

:14:50.:14:53.

Good evening to you. We have heard very strong words from the United

:14:54.:15:04.

States, is there anything they could do at this point to actually make a

:15:05.:15:11.

difference? You are wasting your screen time, letting your folks hear

:15:12.:15:18.

these words from the White House, because we hear them again and

:15:19.:15:23.

again. This White House will take no action to try and stop this carnage.

:15:24.:15:28.

It does not understand or want to understand what is at stake and it

:15:29.:15:33.

cannot act without using military force which it is refusing to do.

:15:34.:15:41.

That is a very strong statement. Are you saying the mistake was made back

:15:42.:15:48.

in 2013 and that a vacuum is left and Russia filled the vacuum? We

:15:49.:15:55.

have seen exactly that. The previous commentator has mentioned that this

:15:56.:16:00.

is a civil war and it certainly is. Like Sri Lanka, and Colombia, but

:16:01.:16:03.

you can't understand this without recognising it is part of a larger

:16:04.:16:09.

struggle. An effort from Iran enabled by Russia to spread the

:16:10.:16:11.

influence and power deep into the Arab world. Syria, rack, Lebanon,

:16:12.:16:21.

Yemen -- rack. That is what is going on. Normally as America we played a

:16:22.:16:27.

role with the rest of the West, in balancing these things, but we have

:16:28.:16:32.

played that role. What military action would you take at this point?

:16:33.:16:38.

I would declare where the rebels are, Idlib, a no-fly zone, which

:16:39.:16:46.

cannot be shut down by Russia and start dropping in supplies by

:16:47.:16:51.

American transport and say that if they are struck out, we will strike

:16:52.:16:55.

the bases from whence the attacks came, something like that is what is

:16:56.:17:00.

needed. If we can't do that and I don't think this Administration

:17:01.:17:06.

will, at least stop giving very effective anti-tank and

:17:07.:17:08.

anti-aircraft weapons to the rebels, to try to drag this thing and to get

:17:09.:17:19.

a political settlement. The Iranians and the Syrians and the Russians are

:17:20.:17:22.

going for a total victory by smashing the population. Today

:17:23.:17:26.

Aleppo and tomorrow the rest of Syria. The danger is you prolong the

:17:27.:17:31.

war and so it goes on endlessly. They can run for 15 years if there

:17:32.:17:39.

are outside parties financing it. That is the danger of the route you

:17:40.:17:44.

are suggesting. If you like what is going on now, is the alternative...

:17:45.:17:51.

There are people who say it would be better if President Assad won. Is

:17:52.:17:59.

that an argument? Again, if this was Sri Lanka or Colombia at where the

:18:00.:18:04.

government in the end wins, even though the other side might have its

:18:05.:18:08.

own grievances or legitimate complaints against the government,

:18:09.:18:11.

that is one thing, but this is no more an isolated Civil War than the

:18:12.:18:16.

Spanish Civil War, to use an ancient example. That was not an isolated

:18:17.:18:26.

Civil War in the 30s, this has a strategic impact on what is going on

:18:27.:18:29.

in Europe and North America and globally. You mentioned that the new

:18:30.:18:34.

regime which might take a different approach. What do you think Donald

:18:35.:18:41.

Trump will do? We assume he will be more favourable towards the Russian

:18:42.:18:43.

perspective in that part of the world and indeed in every part of

:18:44.:18:48.

the world. He views this as a binary conflict between Isis and everybody

:18:49.:18:54.

else. In some sense Donald Trump might take a view that is rather

:18:55.:18:59.

closer to the one I was just putting to you. It is possible, nobody

:19:00.:19:07.

knows. First of all he is very much opposed to Iran's activities. He has

:19:08.:19:13.

gone after the Iran nuclear agreement which is the one thing I

:19:14.:19:25.

like about the Obama's handling of Iran. The problem with Iran, though,

:19:26.:19:32.

depredations to the Middle East are not under control and that is what

:19:33.:19:35.

he will have to deal with and that is what he will hear from the

:19:36.:19:40.

region. That is potentially a contradiction in the clues we have

:19:41.:19:44.

about Donald Trump. He's more pro-Russia but he is more anti-Iran

:19:45.:19:47.

and at the moment they are the two allies fighting together in Syria.

:19:48.:19:53.

He is mainly pro-make America great again, he can't do that if he

:19:54.:19:59.

doesn't deal more effectively than a president Obama has with the

:20:00.:20:02.

depredations from Iran in the Middle East and the challenge to the entire

:20:03.:20:06.

global security system that Russia is making. There is no way to make

:20:07.:20:10.

America great and try to live with that. There are ways you can do this

:20:11.:20:14.

more diplomatically and more militarily but you have got to do

:20:15.:20:17.

something different. Ambassador, thanks for joining us.

:20:18.:20:23.

In recent months on Newsnight we've reported on some

:20:24.:20:25.

of the troubles experienced by the Independent Inquiry

:20:26.:20:27.

In the summer it lost its third chair and since then a number

:20:28.:20:31.

In October, we reported that the inquiry had dropped

:20:32.:20:40.

an investigation into its lead lawyer, despite being made aware

:20:41.:20:42.

of an allegation of sexual assault against him.

:20:43.:20:44.

Ben Emmerson has always strongly denied any wrongdoing.

:20:45.:20:46.

Today the legal chambers where he practices announced

:20:47.:20:48.

their own inquiry had concluded he had not committed

:20:49.:20:50.

Seven weeks ago Newsnight revealed the independent inquiry into child

:20:51.:20:59.

sexual abuse had been made aware of an allegation of sexual assault

:21:00.:21:02.

The inquiry had been told of a claim that Ben Emmerson,

:21:03.:21:06.

the most senior lawyer on the inquiry, had

:21:07.:21:10.

groped a colleague between her legs in a lift.

:21:11.:21:12.

Mr Emmerson has always strongly denied any wrongdoing.

:21:13.:21:16.

It was claimed that despite being aware of the disclosure,

:21:17.:21:18.

the inquiry had dropped an investigation into

:21:19.:21:21.

Three weeks ago MPs described the child abuse inquiry's

:21:22.:21:29.

handling of the disclosure as wholly inadequate.

:21:30.:21:33.

Shortly after Newsnight's broadcast, Matrix, the legal chambers

:21:34.:21:36.

where Mr Emmerson practices, began their own inquiry.

:21:37.:21:39.

It was led by former Director of Public Prosecutions Sir

:21:40.:21:45.

Matrix are not publishing their reports or any extracts from it,

:21:46.:21:52.

but today they revealed that in Sir David's view,

:21:53.:21:54.

Ben Emmerson has no case to answer on the question of misconduct.

:21:55.:21:57.

Shortly afterwards, Ben Emmerson said through his lawyers:

:21:58.:22:38.

Newsnight understands the report acknowledges

:22:39.:22:41.

A number of lawyers at Matrix have told us that they are unhappy

:22:42.:22:48.

with today's statement from their chambers.

:22:49.:22:50.

And it is understood that Aileen McColgan,

:22:51.:22:53.

herself a former lawyer on the child abuse inquiry, has resigned

:22:54.:23:03.

from her role as equalities and diversity officer

:23:04.:23:05.

The inquiry worker who made the disclosure of sexual assault,

:23:06.:23:09.

And for the child sexual abuse inquiry, the question

:23:10.:23:13.

of how it responded to the original disclosure remains.

:23:14.:23:15.

It is reviewing the criticisms made by MPs.

:23:16.:23:21.

Back at the time of the referendum, Newsnight visited Burnley

:23:22.:23:24.

on more than one occasion, to test the views

:23:25.:23:26.

Like many northern towns, it voted for Leave by a big margin -

:23:27.:23:30.

There's no such thing as a typical town, but you can say that Burnley

:23:31.:23:37.

fits a type that is much in the minds of policy

:23:38.:23:39.

It's a manufacturing town with about 87,000 people,

:23:40.:23:43.

about a tenth of those are of Asian heritage, and there's been

:23:44.:23:46.

As we look back on the year of 2016 and the revolution we have

:23:47.:23:51.

witnessed, we thought we'd send film-maker Nick Blakemore back

:23:52.:23:54.

to Burnley, to see what how people are feeling now.

:23:55.:24:07.

I haven't noticed any massive changes as of yet.

:24:08.:24:17.

I suppose we're all waiting for something to happen.

:24:18.:24:21.

With Brexit? Yeah.

:24:22.:24:33.

It was about change, it was about making changes.

:24:34.:24:35.

The state of the country is getting worse.

:24:36.:24:38.

It seems like it's getting worse and worse.

:24:39.:24:42.

There's a lot of homelessness, people who can't afford to eat.

:24:43.:24:51.

So I suppose from someone who is not in that situation,

:24:52.:25:02.

looking at it from an outside point of view, you think, God,

:25:03.:25:05.

And maybe, you know, we are looking for changes,

:25:06.:25:09.

but we don't quite know where to look for it.

:25:10.:25:13.

I live with my partner and my little boy.

:25:14.:25:18.

Let me just check I've got your spellings.

:25:19.:25:22.

I can't work full time because I've got my child to sort out.

:25:23.:25:28.

I have friends and things who would have him, but I couldn't

:25:29.:25:51.

expect them to do it on a regular basis really.

:25:52.:25:53.

I voted Remain because I think that I believe a strong Europe

:25:54.:26:06.

However, I respect the democracy in this country.

:26:07.:26:10.

This is a beautiful country in terms of democracy.

:26:11.:26:12.

And I would go along with the decision of

:26:13.:26:18.

the majority of people in this country.

:26:19.:26:21.

A lot of families settled in this area are from Europe,

:26:22.:26:25.

from the Asian community, and they had a fear that

:26:26.:26:34.

if they voted out for exit, their families and friends would not

:26:35.:26:37.

One of the most deprived areas in Burnley.

:26:38.:26:56.

Here we have my friend Nick from the BBC.

:26:57.:27:01.

This is not only the local businessman but also a very

:27:02.:27:06.

experienced social worker and community worker

:27:07.:27:08.

They should stay with Europe, it is better for Britain.

:27:09.:27:17.

Economically it is better for Britain.

:27:18.:27:26.

I'm against letting criminals into the country or bad

:27:27.:27:28.

people into the country, but those that want to come

:27:29.:27:31.

I wouldn't do a cleaner's job, and I don't think a lot of people

:27:32.:27:36.

would go around cleaning, but these immigrants,

:27:37.:27:38.

So how do you think we could support you a little bit better?

:27:39.:27:56.

How do you think we could help you with that?

:27:57.:27:59.

What we do here is offer support that used to be offered

:28:00.:28:02.

People come in and they have been unemployed

:28:03.:28:05.

You have no income coming in, so it's a struggle.

:28:06.:28:17.

I will just do the banking for today.

:28:18.:28:19.

We have very little funding, meaning that the staff are each

:28:20.:28:28.

having to make sacrifices in order to do the job as well as we can do.

:28:29.:28:32.

I always thought Labour were for the people,

:28:33.:28:43.

for the working class, and I fit in with

:28:44.:28:45.

But when we had the Gordon Brown man come in, the things he did on the TV

:28:46.:28:55.

really put me off Labour and I thought, they're not

:28:56.:28:58.

really ordinary working class people after all.

:28:59.:29:11.

I moved to Lancashire because I found a good job.

:29:12.:29:14.

No one is ever touching me because I'm Polish, because I'm gay,

:29:15.:29:17.

because I live here, no one give me any problem.

:29:18.:29:19.

England is a more tolerant country and in Poland there is a lot

:29:20.:29:22.

It is a Catholic country and it is very hard to find some

:29:23.:29:29.

space to live if you have a partner, to live like a normal person.

:29:30.:29:32.

A lot of people talking about Brexit, and a lot

:29:33.:29:34.

of people asking me, what is this Brexit?

:29:35.:29:40.

I've got a friend and he said, did you vote to leave the Brexit, then?

:29:41.:30:36.

Out of the blue, because it's not something I really

:30:37.:30:39.

And I said I did, actually, and he said, well,

:30:40.:30:42.

I've never heard anything so ridiculous.

:30:43.:30:46.

But he took it as a personal thing to the Asian community.

:30:47.:30:51.

I had not even thought about the Asian community

:30:52.:30:53.

in my vote, so it was nothing to do with it.

:30:54.:30:57.

And I'm sure a lot of people haven't...

:30:58.:31:02.

I pointed out, you are British as well!

:31:03.:31:04.

You know, you were born here, so you are British.

:31:05.:31:13.

So why am I racist against you? You know.

:31:14.:31:15.

People have voted now so you can't really, you know...

:31:16.:31:18.

You know, there were no sort of questions

:31:19.:31:25.

Well, you heard Diane there, a traditional Labour voter,

:31:26.:31:40.

who went off the party after Gordon Brown.

:31:41.:31:42.

Now Burnley is a Labour town, in fact Labour took the seat back

:31:43.:31:47.

from the Lib Dems at the last election, but Ukip got 17%

:31:48.:31:50.

of the vote, and arguably the most fascinating contest

:31:51.:31:52.

in politics over the next few years is the one for Diane's vote.

:31:53.:31:57.

Is it up for grabs? And who can grab it?

:31:58.:32:01.

That's a question I put to Andy Burnham,

:32:02.:32:03.

and Labour candidate for the new metro mayor

:32:04.:32:06.

of Great Manchester in the election next year.

:32:07.:32:13.

The party has been too London-centric for too long.

:32:14.:32:16.

Policies haven't been put forward in places like Burnley and mine.

:32:17.:32:18.

You know, the London perspective on life dominates national policy,

:32:19.:32:21.

so when the North needed help with the manufacturing industry,

:32:22.:32:23.

And on housing, when the North needed help with affordable

:32:24.:32:29.

homes to rent, it was all about selling them off.

:32:30.:32:31.

So national policy has not helped communities

:32:32.:32:34.

To what extent do you think immigration is the issue that really

:32:35.:32:39.

drives this and has driven a wedge, if you like, between traditional

:32:40.:32:42.

Well, it has become the lightning rod for their feeling,

:32:43.:32:47.

the sense that politicians in Westminster are out of touch.

:32:48.:32:51.

It has become the issue that people have used to illustrate that,

:32:52.:32:58.

and I think the truth about it is free movement of labour

:32:59.:33:02.

had a differential impact on different parts of the country.

:33:03.:33:04.

For the big cities, absolutely had brought people

:33:05.:33:06.

in and boosted growth, but for the former industrial

:33:07.:33:09.

parts of the country, the part of the country

:33:10.:33:14.

that I represent, it was having a more complicated effect.

:33:15.:33:16.

It was putting pressure on wages, on GP services, on primary schools,

:33:17.:33:21.

and there was a feeling there that the elite weren't seeing that

:33:22.:33:24.

And I think those are the feelings that came through at the referendum.

:33:25.:33:33.

Let's talk about the Labour Party, though, and whether it agrees

:33:34.:33:35.

Basically, your party is run from London,

:33:36.:33:38.

the Foreign Secretary, the shadow is the next constituency,

:33:39.:33:42.

Diane Abbott, Home Secretary, London MP.

:33:43.:33:44.

They don't agree with what you're saying, or they certainly

:33:45.:33:49.

don't agree with the sentiment that immigration

:33:50.:33:52.

Well, I have spoken up on that, and I have said that I think

:33:53.:34:05.

there needs to be an acceptance that the majority of people voted

:34:06.:34:08.

for a change in the way free movement works.

:34:09.:34:10.

And in my view, the party has to face up to that.

:34:11.:34:13.

But you're right, I think it's not just the Labour Party, I might say,

:34:14.:34:16.

it's the system of governance that we have in our country.

:34:17.:34:19.

it is heavily focused on people who live within the M25. I suppose it is

:34:20.:34:26.

a real problem for the Labour Party, because it aspires to being a

:34:27.:34:29.

government, and it cannot win an election without some of these

:34:30.:34:33.

voters voting for the party. Diane Abbott, in response to you saying

:34:34.:34:37.

that free movement is no longer an option, she apparently smoked and

:34:38.:34:40.

said Andy has always had these views, but you cannot have access to

:34:41.:34:43.

the single market without free movement. I just wonder if the

:34:44.:34:49.

coalition that is the Labour Party is breaking down, metropolitan

:34:50.:34:51.

London liberals and Northern working-class voters who have been

:34:52.:34:56.

bound up in the same party - they don't actually agree. I have worried

:34:57.:35:00.

about that, and I think the referendum has brought that fault

:35:01.:35:06.

line out. I would say to Diane, it is not about my views, it is about

:35:07.:35:10.

what millions of people in the North think, who are not in any way racist

:35:11.:35:15.

or xenophobic, but they see this as had a direct impact on life in a

:35:16.:35:20.

communities. And she would say that you need to teach them they bring in

:35:21.:35:23.

tax revenues to pay for public services. Do you believe the people

:35:24.:35:27.

of Burnley are right, or do you think the people of Burnley are

:35:28.:35:30.

wrong but we have to listen to them and follow what they say? I would

:35:31.:35:34.

never have any truck with xenophobia or racism, and I will always

:35:35.:35:38.

challenge it. But there are practical and legitimate concerns

:35:39.:35:44.

that people in Burnley, Leigh and elsewhere raised... But it is not

:35:45.:35:48.

just about following them, do you believe it? I don't believe free

:35:49.:35:52.

movement was working for those places, because it was having a real

:35:53.:35:56.

impact on wages. There is evidence from the Bank of England that free

:35:57.:36:00.

movement in semi and unskilled occupations has held wages down or

:36:01.:36:05.

even taken them further down. So why wouldn't people have a concern about

:36:06.:36:08.

that? My argument is there is nothing socialist about a system of

:36:09.:36:13.

the free movement of labour where big companies use people like

:36:14.:36:16.

commodities to move them around Europe to drive down labour costs.

:36:17.:36:20.

The left has to kind of rate out of this thing that everything that

:36:21.:36:26.

comes out of Europe is great, we need to reassess things. In the

:36:27.:36:31.

polls, it bounces up and down, Labour is about 14 points behind the

:36:32.:36:35.

Conservatives. In Scotland, Labour was running behind the

:36:36.:36:40.

Conservatives. What on earth can change in the next year, two years?

:36:41.:36:46.

We have to see the party repair its relationship with the nation.

:36:47.:36:50.

Devolution to the English regions was not conceived as the answer to

:36:51.:36:54.

Brexit, but it must be embraced as such, and it creates an opportunity

:36:55.:36:59.

for the party to get closer to people again. I have been in

:37:00.:37:03.

Westminster for over 15 years, and I have seen how it has drifted away

:37:04.:37:06.

from people, I have seen the London centric approach to life that does

:37:07.:37:10.

not provide answers for many parts of the North of England. My

:37:11.:37:15.

frustration with it has led me to want to leave it and say, actually,

:37:16.:37:19.

I would rather devote my energy there to building a northern Labour

:37:20.:37:24.

voice, if you like, so we can represent more directly the feelings

:37:25.:37:27.

that people have and develop answers that are right for them. You know,

:37:28.:37:32.

the problem was Labour in government gave devolution to London, Scotland

:37:33.:37:36.

and Wales, and their voice got longer, but it failed in northern

:37:37.:37:39.

England because the north-east people rejected it. That has left a

:37:40.:37:46.

gap in the way our country is governed. Andy Burnham, thank you.

:37:47.:37:48.

Have you ever detected a preponderance of white models

:37:49.:37:50.

One woman thought she'd draw attention to that issue

:37:51.:37:54.

in a rather arty way, by remaking some of the slickest

:37:55.:37:56.

and sexiest ads, putting herself, a black woman, into the place

:37:57.:37:59.

Deddeh Howard is a medicine student and fashion blogger based in LA,

:38:00.:38:06.

A little earlier, I asked why she thought fashion houses booked so few

:38:07.:38:19.

black models. You know, I think that the fashion

:38:20.:38:21.

industry have an image out there that white are more beautiful,

:38:22.:38:25.

so that's all we see, that is why there's

:38:26.:38:27.

so many white advertisements. it's more aspiration to

:38:28.:38:31.

women out there, which I personally think

:38:32.:38:37.

is not the case. I think that beauty

:38:38.:38:39.

is within everything. We are different,

:38:40.:38:42.

black and white and in between, we are all different

:38:43.:38:46.

and we are all diverse, and I think that is what should

:38:47.:38:48.

be represented. Given the size of the Asian markets

:38:49.:38:53.

and how big they are becoming, it is odd we don't see more Asian

:38:54.:38:57.

women in these ads, you would think. Exactly, that's the whole point -

:38:58.:39:01.

why are we not seeing that? It's because of this really biased

:39:02.:39:06.

image that the fashion industry have been born into,

:39:07.:39:11.

and it's just kept that. Is that because you don't

:39:12.:39:14.

think it is racism? Or because you are reluctant

:39:15.:39:18.

to use that word? I think the fashion industry

:39:19.:39:21.

is just used to putting those images in our face,

:39:22.:39:23.

and people don't speak out about it, or when they do,

:39:24.:39:28.

they get ignored, and they just keep doing

:39:29.:39:31.

those things. So I think if people speak out,

:39:32.:39:33.

it doesn't have to be about racists, it just has to be about including

:39:34.:39:38.

more people, because these pictures prove that diversity is more

:39:39.:39:42.

capable, can do even better than just the race that

:39:43.:39:44.

we see all the time. I have to say you have done

:39:45.:39:51.

a very good job Because the advertisers,

:39:52.:39:54.

they spend a lot of money on them, and you haven't spent the same money

:39:55.:39:58.

on your remakes that they spent. I have to pay attention

:39:59.:40:01.

to school and other things, and Raffael Dickreuter and I

:40:02.:40:03.

took all these pictures, we took all these pictures

:40:04.:40:10.

in our living room with a very low budget compared to these brands

:40:11.:40:15.

that have huge budgets. Thanks, nice talking to you.

:40:16.:40:20.

Thank you. Just as we were coming on air, some

:40:21.:40:39.

news from Yahoo affected by a hack, get this, 1 billion people affected

:40:40.:40:44.

by it. It does not appear to be financial data, names, phone

:40:45.:40:48.

numbers, passwords and e-mail addresses, but not bank and payment

:40:49.:40:51.

data. Apparently, that is the largest hack from a single source,

:40:52.:40:55.

Russian hackers have managed to get data from 1.2 billion, but that was

:40:56.:40:58.

lots of different people. That's all we've got

:40:59.:40:59.

time for this evening. But before we go,

:41:00.:41:01.

National Geographic named its best We thought we'd share them with you.

:41:02.:41:03.

Good night. It looks like a pretty great start

:41:04.:41:54.

to the UK for many parts of the UK, particularly so eastern Scotland,

:41:55.:41:59.

the north-east of England,

:42:00.:42:02.

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