04/01/2017 Newsnight


04/01/2017

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Is that the low rumble of an earthquake we can hear,

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rattling the Elysee Palace, shaking up France?

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Could she really win the Presidential election in 2017?

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And what on earth would she do if she did?

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But even if she loses France could be changing direction.

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We'll try to work out where the country

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is going and what it means for the rest of us?

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You to continue to look for work or your benefit

:00:36.:00:49.

The sanctions regime: life for those who've had welfare

:00:50.:00:59.

Ken Loach, the maker of I, Daniel Blake,

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will be here to discuss whether benefit sanctions have a place.

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They come from the same background, maybe they went to the same

:01:10.:01:12.

And they work together to build a brilliant company but then at some

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point they realise they need to start focusing on people

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who didn't come from the same background as them and did not go

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to the same university and do not look like them.

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How the royalty of Silicon Valley are coping in America.

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We know President Hollande will not be in power after May.

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What is to be determined is who will replace him.

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Marine Le Pen of the Front National hopes to pull a Trump-like shock,

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and to that end, she has been putting flesh on her policy platform

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The big news is that she's inserted some nuance

:01:55.:01:57.

She's no longer saying France must come out.

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But she is for change, and even accepting that she'll

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probably fail to win, France could take a radically

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Our diplomatic editor, Mark Urban reports.

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For many French, the Front National, the National Front, and its former

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leader Jean Marie Le Pen, had become like the baddies in a graphic

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novel, there to menace, but never to win.

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But his daughter has sought to rebrand the party, shed its racist

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I think she has done extremely well in detoxifying,

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that's the word she uses, the Front National brand and saying,

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"I'm not an extremist, I do not make nasty

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jokes about the Holocaust and parties like mine

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"Look at Ukip, look at Brexit, look at Trump in America".

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"It is perfectly normal to vote for me,

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I'm just a politician, except that I'm different from the others".

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Le Pen's platform unveiled during recent days has a take

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back control feel to it, restoring sovereignty of

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the economy, she says, being more protectionist of the territory of

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France itself, imposing permanent border controls and of monetary

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policy, reintroducing the franc, albeit pegged to wider European

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currencies in a kind of new exchange rate mechanism, a more moderate

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message than some of her recent pronouncements

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She's not going for hard Frexit, she's trying to explain

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to the electorate that she wants to renegotiate things with Europe.

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She is doing this probably because she wants to reach

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beyond her traditional electoral base.

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If Marine Le Pen is to win, she has got to leap a whole series

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of hurdles, from appealing to voters who usually stay at home to racing

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through a crowded presidential field, and indeed,

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With the party short of cash, it may seek another loan from

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Russia, a country the party leader has been reluctant to criticise.

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The Front National has a storeyed past of aligning themselves

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Marine Le Pen's stepmother and her father got money

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They campaigned heavily for Saddam Hussein, saying that he was

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misunderstood, a bit like Bashar al-Assad today,

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and a beacon of secularism in the Middle East.

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And strangely enough, it has not harmed her.

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Received political opinion suggests she may

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get to the last two for a second-round vote, as indeed her

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But it will be very hard for her to clinch victory.

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But then again, that's received opinion, based on polls,

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and one French paper announced yesterday that it

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TRANSLATION: We realise that pollsters did not predict several

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big events - Brexit in Great Britain, Trump in the US.

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In France, we have primaries on the right and

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we didn't expect Nicolas Sarkozy to be eliminated in the first round.

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We all thought Alain Juppe would win.

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That's what the polls were telling us.

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But it was Francois Fillon who won, and nobody

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Francois Fillon, now leading the polls, is a man of

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He may well cast doubt on Marine Le Pen's values,

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or even suggest she's not so different from her father.

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She is suddenly looking not as the newcomer,

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as she would hope, but somebody who has tried again and again to be

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elected, while Francois Fillon was prime minister for five years

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and is now the favourite, the newcomer.

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She didn't expect him to win the primary.

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So this is a new battle for her and it is dangerous

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Mobilising people against an establishment candidate

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will still provide Le Pen with plenty of options, and the success

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of her messages on border controls and leaving the single currency may

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yet produce in France a huge challenge to the European project.

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Joining me now are Benedicte Paviot, the UK correspondent for France 24,

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and Philippe Marliere, Professor of French and European Politics

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at University College, London.

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I want to start by getting you to reflect on the Front National, they

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seem to have softened enormously. Should we think of them as the

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Fascist party or the French Ukip? It is more the French Ukip but it is a

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different animal to Ukip. There is very much the question of identity,

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this is across the French spectrum, people are concerned about security

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and France is still under a state of emergency, about immigration. And

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that is they are concerned, very high unemployment, France has almost

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10%. The economy is not doing very well, so it is difficult and people

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are finding it very hard to get by. But I wouldn't compare and Nigel

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Farage doesn't like her thinking they are in the same boat. He has

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never said a word against, he said, but he has criticised her father.

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Would you call them a fascist party? She is very astute in her language,

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so she is able to appeal to people who would be described as probably

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fascist but she is careful, unlike her father, not to generally say

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things, although she has been in trouble herself, whether it is about

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Muslims and also about the Holocaust. Do you think of them as

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the Fascist party? Or Ukip? It is hard-core them a fascist party today

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-- it is hard to call them a fascist party today, although their roots

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are in the far right, and they are clearly an extreme far right party,

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but they have softened the image, the brand, because of Le Pen

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herself, the message is soft, but when you look at the core policies

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it is about immigration and law and order. Identity politics. It is

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still about Islam posing a major threat to French identity. The have

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-- these have been very important in other elections, like in America. If

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many French voters think they are a fascist party, they will think they

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will never vote for them, but if you look at the policies you have

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described, populist economics, sovereignty, national control, you

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could see people voting for that, couldn't you? It would appeal to the

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mainstream? It is a difficult question, opinion polls have said

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for the majority of people the Front National remains a party which is a

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threat to French democracy. That is very clear. It is not a normal party

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in that respect, but if you want to see it as a fascist party along the

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lines of the Nazis in Germany or Mussolini, there are differences,

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clearly. Let's talk about the Front National, being parked between Ukip

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and more extreme, but Francois Fillon, he is not a normal French

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candidate, he's quite right wing. Thatcherite. Which the French don't

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like. Very socially conservative. Yes. Francois Fillon, I would not

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agree with your reporter, he's a known quantity, he would like to

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present himself as a newcomer, but the French people know him very

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well. He was a Prime Minister under Nicolas Sarkozy and we should point

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out that it is quite a surprise that we are sitting here at the end of

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November... He was not seen at all by the polls as the favourite to be

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the Conservative candidate, but he is the official candidate in what

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was a very successful first time exercise for the French

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Conservatives to do these primaries, that is the... Be socialists did

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that at the last election, they will go through their second exercise. It

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was very successful because they got millions of people do come out and

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vote and we ended up, not with another former Conservative Prime

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Minister, we got Francois Fillon, who has a track record, and is a

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known quantity. He has parked his tanks very firmly on the right,

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which is a slight problem for Marine Le Pen. She had geared herself up to

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be dealing with Alain Juppe. He's not doing well in the polls, though.

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Ever since his victory, which was very good, and the expulsion in

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third place of the former President Nicholas Sarkozy, he has been

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completely silent and 53% of the French people feel he has been to

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silent and he has disappeared, you can't afford to do that. And that he

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should also change some of its policies. What is going on in

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France? We have not spoken about the Socialists, no one seems to be

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bothered by them in this election. Is it cultural or economic question

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mark it is very simple, the Francois Hollande presidency has been a

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fiasco, really, there's a strong rejection of what Francois Hollande

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and the government have achieved, so a very unpopular government. That is

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why one of the candidates, Manuel Valls, will have a mountain to

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climb. If he's nominated by his own party. The second reason, the left

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is not united. There will be many many candidates, 5-6 candidates on

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the left. Very briefly. What do you think the EU should be thinking

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about this election? Should they be terrified of both candidates? Marine

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Le Pen is a bit softer towards the EU than she was six months ago. If

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Francois Fillon wins or a socialist wins, any candidate will be rather

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lukewarm regarding Europe but they will be the same continuation of the

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same policy as at the moment. If Le Pen wins it is a totally different

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situation. She would like a referendum about Frexit. That would

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be a different proposition, but she has to win, and she's not there yet,

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in my opinion. There is one other person to watch out for, the

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independent candidate. The wild card. Thanks for joining us.

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Britain has a new ambassador to the EU - didn't take long.

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I'm joined by our political editor Nick Watt.

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What do we know about Tim Barrow? He's an immensely respected figure

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and his nickname in the Foreign Office is deep state, which means he

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has the answers to everything. He had a stint in Moscow and a couple

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in Brussels. Boris Johnson is delighted. He believes the UK

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mission to the EU needs to be headed by someone who speaks the language

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in Europe. He was one of the diplomatic high-flyers who takes the

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form or notes of the European Council some years ago. They also

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believe because Tim Barrow has been the political director at the

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Foreign Office, he is June to the politics and he also has something

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of a sense of humour and is aware of the intricacies of the Brexit

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debate. This became apparent in a recent appearance before the foreign

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affairs select committee when his boss Alan Duncan inadvertently set

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him up as one of those dreaded experts. This is the exchange. I'm

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not perhaps as deeply immersed in the

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thinking, but maybe I can bat that to Tim Barrow, who has been living

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with this... I'm not an expert. Michael Gove might approve, but not

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me. Where did disappointment come from?

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It has been quite quick. Is it a solution, or does it create another

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problem inside the Foreign Office? Tim Barrow was only approached for

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this job in the last 36 hours after Sir Ivan Rogers stood down, and the

:15:47.:15:50.

process a successor was led by Sir Jeremy Heywood, the Cabinet

:15:51.:15:52.

Secretary scotching rumours that a political Brexiteer would be put in.

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Sir Jeremy has ensured that at one level, nothing changes. A Whitehall

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life will run the British mission to the EU. But at another level,

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everything changes. He is a clean slate. Sir Ivan Rogers carried a lot

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of baggage because he was associated with David Cameron's negotiations.

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Interestingly, Tim Barrow has achieved a first. He has united

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Remainers and almost all Leavers. One dissenting voice is Nigel

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Farage. In the film I, Daniel Blake,

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you see the main characters Daniel Blake and his friend Kate

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lose their benefits after being Sanctioning is a punishment for not

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looking for work hard enough or turning up on time

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for appointments or whatever. Now, Daniel Blake's story

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is fiction, but those who work in food banks

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say that sanctioning does force

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people into charity. We're going to debate sanctioning

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shortly with Ken Loach, who made But first, we go to the town

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of Accrington to meet some people Filmmaker Nick Blakemore has

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returned to Maundy Grange, a charity relief centre he visited

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in 2014, which tries to help them. I've had a bit of a bad

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situation with a landlord. Got in rent arrears with

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the landlord and he's just started At the moment, he's struggling

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hard for furniture. Here, we try to provide an immediate

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response to poverty and need Need can be defined as not having

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enough to eat or suffering from mental ill-health or needing

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help with a form. It's difficult to be optimistic

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at the moment because we've seen three years of things getting

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gradually worse and I think there are things which we weren't used to,

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like benefits sanctions and people being left to be destitute,

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which are now more commonplace. And that's a worry, and that doesn't

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seem to be getting better. I can't get into the house

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to get my stuff, so while I'm fighting to get my stuff,

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I've got nothing to live on, If I can get hold of

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a bed or something. I've got no debts and I don't

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owe anybody any money. When he lost his job four years ago,

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he says he gave up on the system I've worked all my life and now

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they expect me to do I do volunteer work

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five days a week. There should be heads

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rolling for that one. When you say you worked

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all your life, what were you doing? My first job, I worked in the mill

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for six years and then in a foundry for a couple of years,

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and then in another foundry When I was here last,

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I met John Crabtree. The sanctions are basically

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about saying you're not making enough of an effort

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to look for work. I turned around and said to them,

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"Look, I'm 61 now, there's no jobs So how can you sit there, young

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person, 25, and tell me about work? You haven't even had

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the experience I've had". I tracked John down to his

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new place in Accrington. he says, because he did not fill

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in a form correctly. This is where I've been

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for about three year. Last time I spoke to you, you'd been

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sanctioned and you said you'd I spoke to you the other day

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and you said you'd been in prison? I got caught, obviously,

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so I got 20 months. The plug was in, it ran over,

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and that's what it did. Well, it's better than the place

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you were in before. Can I just ask you,

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when you think back, Yeah, I worked from

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the age of 15, 16. Things should be easy now,

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not worse, but anyway, Jonno, are

:22:21.:22:29.

these your supplies? Chocolate's my favourite

:22:30.:22:49.

drug, then weed. Sometimes I wake up

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and think, oh, shit. Sometimes I have a nice

:22:58.:23:03.

dream and I think, ahhh. When you find a place to sleep

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at night, what do you look for? It's got a bit of light,

:23:11.:23:16.

that's quite nice. As long as you have a couple

:23:17.:23:26.

of sleeping bags, something It's a lot better than,

:23:27.:23:29.

say, sleeping in a Tesco You get over here

:23:30.:23:33.

and out of the way. You know you have to get

:23:34.:23:39.

up in the morning by You find a place that's

:23:40.:23:42.

sheltered like this. Back in 2014, Zack was

:23:43.:23:48.

struggling to make ends meet. Some jobs, they're only taking

:23:49.:24:07.

on certain qualified people. What happened after you

:24:08.:24:27.

were sanctioned, then? They basically messed around

:24:28.:24:48.

with my housing benefit and it still carried on until not

:24:49.:24:50.

so long ago. They got me over ?1,000

:24:51.:25:00.

in debt with my landlady. Messing with my jobseekers'

:25:01.:25:06.

and all that lot. That's what made me want

:25:07.:25:08.

to get a job, really. So obviously, I don't

:25:09.:25:17.

have to depend on them. All we have is emergency

:25:18.:25:23.

accommodation, which is literally It's easy to agree with

:25:24.:25:30.

the principle that people But what worries us is the number

:25:31.:25:36.

of people who can't work who are being penalised for not

:25:37.:25:44.

being able to work. The way things are going,

:25:45.:25:47.

I think there's a big gap in people's awareness

:25:48.:25:50.

of what's going on. Maybe some people feel we're moving

:25:51.:25:53.

out of recession and things are getting a bit better and maybe

:25:54.:25:56.

there's a lack of willingness to look at people who don't have

:25:57.:26:01.

that feeling that things are getting better, and for whom things

:26:02.:26:05.

are getting considerably worse. I use a lot of food from the skips,

:26:06.:26:12.

I've got to admit. I find a lot of chocolate biscuits

:26:13.:26:28.

sometimes, a lot of cake. The soup kitchens, things like that,

:26:29.:26:31.

there's not enough to cope So when you are hungry at tea

:26:32.:27:02.

time, you do the skips. Can you explain how

:27:03.:27:09.

often you go hungry? Because I'm homeless,

:27:10.:27:11.

I'm on the streets at the moment. We did ask the Department for Work

:27:12.:27:22.

and Pension for an interview, but they weren't able

:27:23.:27:48.

to offer anyone. They did say, however,

:27:49.:27:49.

that sanctions are only I'm joined in the studio

:27:50.:27:51.

by Matthew Oakley, who was commissioned

:27:52.:27:56.

by the government to write an independent review

:27:57.:27:58.

into the impact of sanctions And in Bristol we have

:27:59.:28:00.

director Ken Loach, whose award winning film I,

:28:01.:28:05.

Daniel Blake told the story of people struggling

:28:06.:28:07.

with the bureaucracy Matthew, I would like to start with

:28:08.:28:22.

you for some facts. You did a review and you found it was basically

:28:23.:28:26.

working, is that right of the sanction system? Essentially so. We

:28:27.:28:32.

need to take on board the wider context, that this is a system of

:28:33.:28:35.

sanctions that only applies to a small number of people. The majority

:28:36.:28:38.

of people on benefits are not sanctioned. So the people you see in

:28:39.:28:46.

that film are at the hardest end of what are talking about. Secondly,

:28:47.:28:50.

there is a huge amount of international evidence that shows

:28:51.:28:53.

that conditionality, requirements placed on people who are on

:28:54.:28:58.

benefits, backed up by financial sanctions, penalties for not doing

:28:59.:29:01.

what they should be in terms of looking for work, is effective in

:29:02.:29:04.

getting people back to work more quickly. Thirdly, this is a system

:29:05.:29:08.

that is supported by both the majority of the public, but also

:29:09.:29:11.

benefit claimants themselves. That is one of the surprising things from

:29:12.:29:15.

my review. We spoke to a lot of benefit claimants and charities who

:29:16.:29:18.

support them and even people who have been sanctioned, and they

:29:19.:29:22.

supported the principle. What is your reaction as you watch that

:29:23.:29:23.

film? Do you think those people should

:29:24.:29:43.

have been sanction, or do you think they are just, if you like, the cost

:29:44.:29:46.

of a sanctioning system, that you will have some people who shouldn't

:29:47.:29:48.

be sanctioned who are sanctioned? It looked like someone find it quite

:29:49.:29:50.

difficult to get a job. Absolutely. What my review said was that in

:29:51.:29:55.

certain situations where people are obviously vulnerable, we are talking

:29:56.:29:59.

homelessness here, that should act as a signal for people to step in

:30:00.:30:02.

and provide more support for those people so they can get themselves

:30:03.:30:07.

out of that situation. Did you see I, Daniel Blake, the movie? I have

:30:08.:30:12.

not seen it. Ken Loach, did you recognise the finding that some

:30:13.:30:15.

conditionality in a system that is, you have got some responsibility is

:30:16.:30:18.

and you are punished if you don't meet them, do you accept any of that

:30:19.:30:26.

in the benefit system? Well, what's clear is that sanctions are a cruel

:30:27.:30:30.

and vindictive way of treating vulnerable people. People are to

:30:31.:30:40.

fail. The system is there to trap them. When they go to a Jobcentre,

:30:41.:30:44.

they are not shown the jobs that are available. The job coaches aren't

:30:45.:30:49.

allowed to show them what jobs are available, and people are inferior.

:30:50.:30:53.

And a lot of people are sanctioned because of the work capability

:30:54.:30:57.

assessment -- people are in fear. We heard a story of a man who had a

:30:58.:31:00.

heart attack in the course of the assessment. He had to go to hospital

:31:01.:31:04.

and was sanctioned because he couldn't complete the assessment.

:31:05.:31:08.

There are absurd stories of people being sanctioned for being a few

:31:09.:31:13.

moments late. And of course, we know Jobcentre staff, I don't know if

:31:14.:31:16.

Matthew Oakley got this in his report, but Jobcentre staff are

:31:17.:31:22.

given targets. They call them expectations, and if they don't

:31:23.:31:24.

sanction a certain number of people per week, they get into trouble.

:31:25.:31:31.

Let me put this specifically to Matthew. They have to work in a

:31:32.:31:38.

terrible atmosphere. Is that correct, they have do sanction a

:31:39.:31:42.

certain amount of people? I'm telling you it is correct. Wouldn't

:31:43.:31:47.

you be more concerned if we did not know how many people at a job centre

:31:48.:31:55.

were sanctioned? That we didn't know they were sanctioning, say, 30% of

:31:56.:32:00.

people, is it not right, in terms of standard management practice, we

:32:01.:32:02.

understand what proportion of people on benefits each office is

:32:03.:32:09.

sanctioning. Are they forced, they told you should be sanctioning this

:32:10.:32:14.

number? That is not my experience, we have spoken to Jobcentre staff,

:32:15.:32:21.

in the review, what we found is a large proportion of the staff

:32:22.:32:26.

actually supported the system. Ken Loach, I'm interested, you say there

:32:27.:32:33.

is no conditionality at all, or there are some kind of sanctions,

:32:34.:32:39.

and in a way, you said there should be no sanctions at all. Nobody

:32:40.:32:46.

supports cheating. Nobody supports tax cheat, but they don't seem to

:32:47.:32:53.

get the same coverage. Yes, of course, people should not cheat, and

:32:54.:32:55.

there should be a way of dealing with that, but when you stop people

:32:56.:33:00.

odds money, you force them into the dire poverty, they have nothing --

:33:01.:33:05.

when you stop people's money. They are driven to the streets and food

:33:06.:33:09.

banks, and last year out of one group of food banks, 1,100,000 food

:33:10.:33:17.

bags were given. Half a million of those went to families with

:33:18.:33:22.

children, children would not eat unless people put tins into a

:33:23.:33:25.

charity bag. Don't you think that is disgusting? We accept that as part

:33:26.:33:31.

of our society now. That is the system which Matthew Oakley appears

:33:32.:33:37.

to be defending. What I would say, this is a system which the vast

:33:38.:33:41.

majority of the public actually support, the claimants... You can't

:33:42.:33:47.

hide behind that, this is an appalling system. That is not to say

:33:48.:33:52.

that there are people who need more help. We have a binary system, you

:33:53.:33:57.

are either capable of work or you're not. But there are people who are on

:33:58.:34:03.

the margins and they will find working quite difficult, they have

:34:04.:34:07.

ragged lives or the responsibilities are a bit own a bit much. Are we

:34:08.:34:19.

applying sanctions to those people? Most people would say we do not want

:34:20.:34:23.

sanctions apply to people who are not capable of holding down a job.

:34:24.:34:29.

We need to understand what a sanction is. This is not people

:34:30.:34:34.

being sanction for not being in work, being unemployed or out of

:34:35.:34:38.

work is not because of a sanction. It is not doing what you have agreed

:34:39.:34:41.

to do for the people are agreeing to do these things. Seeking work and

:34:42.:34:48.

taking steps towards work, and maybe you are taking steps to prepare

:34:49.:34:52.

yourself for work, to take on some kind of activity which improves your

:34:53.:34:56.

health condition. This isn't people being sanction for not being at

:34:57.:34:58.

work, this is not taking the steps to what they have agreed. Ken Loach,

:34:59.:35:04.

the last word. People are sanctioned when they are in work, woman were

:35:05.:35:07.

sanctioned for going on leave when she was on a zero is ours contract.

:35:08.:35:13.

-- zero hours contract. We are missing the point, this is a very

:35:14.:35:19.

cruel way to deal with the most vulnerable people and if all the

:35:20.:35:23.

people who fulfilled every thing of what they are required, they would

:35:24.:35:27.

still be 1.6 million people unemployed and there would still be

:35:28.:35:31.

5 million people underemployed, the system creates the poverty and we

:35:32.:35:34.

are punishing the poorest and blaming them for their poverty,

:35:35.:35:39.

blaming the unemployed for the unemployment, and that is really

:35:40.:35:41.

false and Matthew should accept that. Ken Loach, Matthew, thanks for

:35:42.:35:50.

joining us. We now move to the other end of the social spectrum.

:35:51.:35:58.

The billionaire bosses of Silicon Valley.

:35:59.:35:59.

They have been as taken aback as anyone by the new and obvious

:36:00.:36:03.

Full, as they are, of the potential of technology to solve anything,

:36:04.:36:06.

suddenly it seems that real people in their midst, have problems that

:36:07.:36:09.

Mark Zuckerberg, the founder of Facebook made a new year Facebook

:36:10.:36:15.

post with a hint of guilt at how disconnected he has become

:36:16.:36:18.

He's challenged himself to visit 30 US states this year,

:36:19.:36:24.

and to meet the people in them, having, he says, enjoyed

:36:25.:36:27.

travelling around the cities of the world in recent years.

:36:28.:36:29.

It's a fascinating post, it not only offers a good idea

:36:30.:36:32.

for a new year's resolution for upstanding members

:36:33.:36:34.

But it also tells us something about the tech entrepreneur class -

:36:35.:36:37.

a kind of new royalty, with a sense of the duty

:36:38.:36:40.

Or does it tell us something about the challenge of trying to run

:36:41.:36:47.

a business for everyone, in a society that's split.

:36:48.:36:49.

Here's our technology editor David Grossman.

:36:50.:36:53.

The New Year is a time to reflect on times past...

:36:54.:36:58.

What could possibly help a New Year hangover better than a load of world

:36:59.:37:01.

leaders popping up on your phone to give you their thoughts

:37:02.:37:04.

And, how refreshing, amongst the peace and goodwill messages,

:37:05.:37:10.

to hear the North Korean leader announce a new long-range missile

:37:11.:37:13.

But look who's also lighting the fuse on the year with a missive,

:37:14.:37:21.

In a post on Facebook, he says:

:37:22.:38:02.

In previous years, he has said something more substantive,

:38:03.:38:04.

"I'm going to programme an AI for my house, I'm going

:38:05.:38:07.

This year he is like, "I have a toddler and I don't have

:38:08.:38:13.

that much bandwidth and I'm just going to go to Nebraska

:38:14.:38:15.

The fact is, tech companies like Facebook don't really

:38:16.:38:20.

They don't have too many Trump supporters working

:38:21.:38:23.

They're built of people who look the same, they act the same,

:38:24.:38:29.

Maybe they went to the same university together.

:38:30.:38:33.

And they work together to build a brilliant company,

:38:34.:38:36.

but then at some point they realise they need to start focusing

:38:37.:38:39.

on the people who didn't come from the same background as them

:38:40.:38:42.

and did not go to the same university and do not

:38:43.:38:45.

We need to start bridging our way out and experiencing people in a

:38:46.:38:54.

different context if we are going to build their products.

:38:55.:38:59.

And I think that's something I'm seeing more founders

:39:00.:39:02.

One of Donald Trump's first actions after his election was to summon

:39:03.:39:07.

the bosses of the big tech companies to Trump Tower for a meeting.

:39:08.:39:10.

Most had made no secret of their antipathy towards him

:39:11.:39:12.

But how powerful are these tech bosses

:39:13.:39:19.

I think that what Mark Zuckerberg does by being the chief

:39:20.:39:27.

executive of Facebook, which has its own population,

:39:28.:39:33.

or its user base which is larger than most countries in the world,

:39:34.:39:36.

And the messaging and the way it convenes people or convenes thought

:39:37.:39:41.

or informs people is hugely important and can be

:39:42.:39:44.

transformational for different political agendas.

:39:45.:39:46.

The Facebook algorithm, of course, has been blamed

:39:47.:39:49.

for spreading fake news stories during the US election campaign.

:39:50.:39:53.

The balance between maintaining an open platform and policing

:39:54.:40:01.

the content on that platform has never been one the tech companies

:40:02.:40:04.

They don't like the messiness of the real world.

:40:05.:40:11.

They don't like the messiness of how you deal with unemployment

:40:12.:40:14.

The hot thing in Silicon Valley right now is this thing called

:40:15.:40:21.

Everyone loves it for different reasons, because it's a bold

:40:22.:40:25.

and simple idea which can transform the world.

:40:26.:40:28.

But politics isn't really about bold and simple ideas.

:40:29.:40:32.

Politics in the real world is about campaigning and meeting

:40:33.:40:36.

people and understanding different ways of looking at the world

:40:37.:40:40.

and forging compromise and legislating, and that kind

:40:41.:40:42.

of messiness is something Silicon Valley just

:40:43.:40:44.

This is much more the sort of project they love,

:40:45.:40:52.

bringing the internet to the unconnected in

:40:53.:40:53.

Although the big tech firms are more and more powerful in our lives,

:40:54.:40:58.

they're only now learning how to use this huge influence.

:40:59.:41:02.

Clearly, they don't want to act like elected politicians,

:41:03.:41:04.

apart from, that is, sending out the odd

:41:05.:41:06.

That's all we've got time for this evening.

:41:07.:41:15.

But before we go, as you might have heard, today was the last day Dippy

:41:16.:41:20.

the Diplodocus could be seen in the Natural History Museum before

:41:21.:41:22.

I understand that things are not going smoothly.

:41:23.:41:28.

Let's go over now to the museum hall.

:41:29.:41:30.

Skies are likely to clear through the night and it will turn bitterly

:41:31.:42:35.

cold. A

:42:36.:42:37.

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