12/01/2017 Newsnight


In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Naga Munchetty.

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The leaked Trump dossier - what did the British authorities know?


Who in Whitehall saw it, and who knew what impact it


We'll talk to a former MI6 officer and a man who's been personally


Also tonight, we report from Cyprus, where signs are that


But in some quarters, wounds still run deep.


I don't believe a solution will come in the next two


If they start changing the education system, if they start


changing the Dhekelia, even now they are spreading


We ask the Northern Cypriot Representative to the UK


And we talk to choreographer Wayne McGregor about how


Some people like to dance when when no-one's looking


I think what's interesting, everybody has a personal


A salacious memo - slapped down as fake news


and vehemently denied by President-elect Trump


yesterday at his first news conference since July.


Today, he tweeted that the US Intelligence Service said it was


In fact, James Clapper, the Director of National Intelligence,


effectively distanced the US Intelligence Agency


from the unverified video, saying it didn't leak it and hadn't


Since then, the spotlight has been shone on the man credited


with producing the memo - Christopher Steele, a former MI6


officer respected by British intelligence agencies,


The focus is now on what British intelligence knew and whether


anything made its way onto ministers' desks.


But the wider question persists - is this a scandal of Watergate


proportions, or one of the biggest smears in the history of politics?


Here's our Diplomatic Editor, Mark Urban.


We're learning more about the world of private intelligence gathering


and how information gleaned from across the globe -- Globe was


assembled in the Trump files, and what was done with them. There was a


London connection. The offices of Orbis, a small private firms set up


by a former company of MI6 officers, commissioned in this case by


American paymasters to dig the dirt on Trump. A series of reports was


filed by August between June and December last year. Taken together,


they presented such a serious catalogue of alleged wrongdoing is


surrounding Mr Trump and his campaign, that those in receipt of


the reports decided they would have to be sent to the FBI. And people


here, I've been told, Kimberly conclusion that meant MI6 would also


have to be put in the picture. The reports were put together by


Christopher Steele, who had served as an MI6 intelligence officer in


Russia and France. He and a partner founded August business intelligence


when he left the service in 2009. He is reported to have provided


information on the Fifa corruption case to the FBI. So evidently, they


regarded him as sound. Yesterday though, Trump trashed several of the


most extraordinary claims in the memos. I think it's a disgrace that


information would be let out. I saw the information, I read the


information outside of that meeting. It's all fake news, it's phoney


stuff, it didn't happen. But while Donald Trump yesterday claimed James


Clapper had denounced the report, today the director of national


intelligence without a public statement saying something quite


different. Leaving aside the private


intelligence gathering with all its apparent faults, the official US


intelligence community view, presented at Trump Tower last week,


was of a gross violation of American democracy in favour of the Trump


campaign by Russia. A verdict that his own nominee to run the CIA


endorsed today. Everything I've seen suggests to me that the report has


an analytical product that is sound. But as Mr Pompeo and the other


inductees move into position, Trump supporters expect the way


intelligence is presented to change. It is very convenient for them to


delegitimise ties -- delegitimise Donald Trump. They don't like him,


they don't want him, they want Mrs Clinton and they want Barack Obama,


who appointed them. But remember, you can have a whole new group of


people running these agencies as soon as his appointees are confirmed


by the Senate. With that happening, you are good to see a change in tone


and temperament. What did MI6 do with the reports it received? The


government today was remaining tight-lipped. But one person


familiar with the service's procedures told me that MI6 wouldn't


normally circulate such material if it wasn't aware of the identity of


sources from which it was drawn. So the answer seems to be, they kept it


largely to themselves. I think it would have been a pretty borderline


case if the material was not well sourced, if the source wasn't


identified, and if the source couldn't be assessed in terms of


reliability or access and credibility. I think the agency is


quite likely have been pretty cautious about putting it out. Since


the Butler report, since the Chilcot Report, they have become much more


rigorous, much more prudent in the way they present intelligence. As


for the fallout from this, the former MI6 man, Christopher Steele,


was not at home to chorus today. The focus though is shifting, back from


the credibility of his reporting, to the bigger question about the spies


and how they deal with Trump. about the spies and how


they deal with Trump. Let's talk to our Political Editor


Nick Watt, who has more details Good evening. Christopher Steele


passed this on to MI6. What happened next? I can only echo what was said


in the film. I understand these documents were not passed on to


ministers, neither were ministers briefed about them when they were


passed over. Whether they have been briefed in recent days, that is


another matter. You might have thought that a bin and century


reports like this ends up add MI6, it would end up on the desks of


senior ministers and at the White House. But what happened was a


judgment was made that these reports were not really compiled to the


standard you would expect of MI6, and with that in mind, MI6 had to


make a judgment about whether it would be helpful or Makkonen helpful


to briefed ministers. Clearly they reached something of a political


judgment based on those procedures mark was talking about, that was


best to put some distance between ministers and these reports. What is


the feeling in Whitehall that you are sensing about what has been


revealed? It's a bit sniffy, really. What I'm hearing is he is not an


intelligence agent. He is a businessman. He runs a business


model. He is essentially saying to clients, I can dig deeper and find


lots of information about rivals or political opponents. There is a


feeling that the reports are showing off. That there is one sensational


claim after another. There are very few of the caveats you would expect


in an official intelligence report. We know all about caveats. The


Butler report into the use of intelligence in the lead to the Iraq


war said that the Blair government, the joint intelligence committee,


had perhaps stripped out some of the caveats in the intelligence


presented. Let me add my own little caveat. It's not a great surprise


that officially we are finding a bit of a sniffy UK response. Obviously


macro Britain needs to big -- build bridges with the incoming Trump


bridges with the incoming Trump administration.


Let's talk now to Harry Ferguson, who is a former MI6 officer.


Thank you for joining us. We were just hearing their that Christopher


Steele is a businessman, a man respected by many intelligence


agencies. Your take on him? Yes, I have met Chris once as an


intelligence and Security Conference. He always struck me as a


very affable and very reliable sort of guy not given to flights of


fancy. I also know him through mutual friends. Another work of his


company. They are a reliable agency. Chris was a strong middle ranking


SAS officer. I don't quite agree that this was a subpar report. It


seems to me that Chris has been quite careful to try to find as many


sources as possible, but also to make it clear that these are stories


and that what his report has at the moment, it lacks that killer


evidence. What kind of stories are there? Joe Public, Wii, don't see


reports like this. What scale do we put it against, the National


Enquirer, or something as -- akin to a government led report? It's not


quite the Premier League that an SAS report would be. It's more a leading


Championship side. One of the things that's missing from this report that


you would normally find in an MI6 report is an indication of just how


long these sources have been in contact, and how reliable their


reporting has been in the past. That sort of caveat is missing. But the


intelligence included in this document really falls into three


parts. The first is to suggest that the Russians have been feeding


intelligence about the Democrats to the Trump campaign. The second is


one particular incident which appears to have occurred in 2013,


the one involving supposedly Russian prostitute in Moscow. Chris has


managed to dig up four different sources, because he wants to back


that up. There is another story that the Russians have been collecting


compromising intelligence about Trump for a very long time. That


also has a certain amount of credibility. I think Trump was


surprised to become president now. I don't think he was thinking about it


ten years ago. He is a wealthy man used to getting his own ways. Chris


has found these stories, tried to corroborate them and he has put them


out there. But he does not have that final piece of evidence. The reason


we have not seen either the SAS, the CAA or the FBI move on it is that


they don't have it either. Nobody can quite find the definitive story.


If the information is out there but can't be corroborated, why wouldn't


the intelligence services here have passed that to ministers, or is the


implication that it has already been discussed? Well, that's just it.


Chris worked in SAS for 20 years. Most of the sources he is using


would be once he built up. You would assume that in the seven years since


he left, other sources have recruited. He would have tried to


add sources himself. SYS should have already been aware that this


information was out there. I was at a Conference last week for


intelligence professionals and there was a love of gossip about this


story before it broke. People said they had heard rumours last year at


times. I think they looked at it and said, we haven't got anything new


that we are not already reporting. It doesn't enhance what we have put


out there. There is no need to let ministers know. They might have led


the Americans know what Chris was working on. A question was made


about not knowing what his sources were. They could have gone to him.


They could have asked him. I suspect they already knew. Harry Ferguson,


thank you for your time. Harry Ferguson, thank


you for your time. Someone else caught up in the Trump


memo scandal is Rick Wilson, a Republican party strategist


and Trump critic. He was accused of being


behind the Trump memo, and of leaking it to the CIA -


a charge he has denied. Rick now joins us from


Tallahassee, Florida. Thank you for joining us. How did


you get caught up in this? Well, I've been a prominent person in the


anti-Trump movement and a critic of Donald Trump for well over a year


now and when the online forum decided to claim that they had


written the memo as a prank, they put my name into the chain of


accusations, that they had leaked it to me and I had taken it to the CIA


and John McCain. It is readable and absurd but we live in an era, in


American journalism, the post-fact are, so Conservative journalists


took off with the story, believing it verbatim, even though it came


from an anonymous forum, easily demonstrated to be false and my


alleged role was easily demonstrated to be false, mainly because these


folks don't understand how politics and media and journalism works in


the US. How does politics and media work over there? You've denied any


relationship to the memo and you've established that but the fact is, as


a person who's worked in opposition research, your job is to dig dirt,


isn't it, on the opposition, in order to sully their reputation,


isn't that how it works? I'm actually the guy who hires the


opposition researchers and yes, we use opposition research to establish


a fact in a campaign so you can look at another candidate and say that


their message doesn't fit with what they are claiming, their record


doesn't fit with what they're claiming, their behaviour doesn't


fit and to go after the predicates of their candidacy. Donald Trump


claims to be a multi-billionaire, a successful international businessman


but he's been very careful about hiding his relationships in the


business community, so folks like me in the primary, well before this


silly fabricated version came out, and well before the Christopher


Steele report came out, we were looking at those relationships and


that's where a lot of the pursuit was, looking at the secrets behind


the opacity established by Trump hiding his tax returns and going


after the business relationships, overseas in particular. Why do you


think this has come out now? Many said that there were rumours last


autumn, last fall as you might say, but why now? The first contact I had


was a major investigative reporter for a TV network reached out and


said, do you know anything, can you check with your people? This was in


discussion last summer and there were rumours before that. Even some


jokes in pop culture on the Howard Stern Show before that. Why it pop


now is simple. The intelligence community has been told by Donald


Trump that they are one of his enemies, he has declared war on the


US intelligence community, questioning their judgment,


professionalism, and patria Chisholm. This is something you're


going to see when they are up against the wall like this --


patriotism. They will play with elbows out, and I don't blame them,


he has put much more trust in VanderMeer Putin and the FSB rather


than the CIA -- Vladimir Putin. Has he successfully batted this away? It


is the biggest political bet he's going to make, that he can bluster


his way out of this, that there is nothing there, that at no time in


his trips to Russia did he engage in any behaviour that was caught on


tape and that's a big bet. If he's right, he's right, but if not it


will have significant consequences for his credibility. Thank you for


joining us. The pressure and strain that the NHS


is under has been well It's experiencing its worst ever


winter crisis, the Royal College of Physicians and the Royal College


of Nursing has warned. Many patients are not receiving


care when they need it. The government's target


for A patients to be treated within four hours,


hasn't been met for 16 months - a target that is speculated


will be soon adjusted. Beds are being blocked,


causing much-needed operations to be delayed, with the head of NHS


England calling for extra funding for social care so that


patients can be released. Chris Cook, Policy Editor,


is tracking the problems There's a documentary that is


reflecting the challenges that NHS is facing. That's right, Hospital,


BBC Two on Wednesday, it is excellent and we are going to show


you a clip which illustrates the important challenge facing the NHS,


the delayed transfer of care, called a Detoc, meaning a patient who needs


care, but the hospital would like to be delivered by somebody else,


cannot be moved out because the next person in the chain of care is not


ready to take them. These Detocs are a serious problem because it means


there are not enough beds in the hospital, the patient can get stuck


in the wrong place and it can gum up everything. If you can't admit new


patients, that is difficult for because the two to deal with and it


feeds into the A problems. The case were about to see is from the


documentary, a patient called Dolly. 91-year-old Dolly is waiting to find


out if she can be discharged today. When we saw you earlier


on this morning, you were As you know, we'd hoped to get


you home later, well, not home, but to Willesden Community Hospital


this morning for a bit of rehabilitation and


some convalescence. But I think given that


you had your collapse this morning, we should probably keep an eye


on you here. So what I think we're going to do


is hang on to you for at least another 24-hours and then we'll send


the referral again But unfortunately, because they've


given the bed up to another patient this morning,


we might end up having to keep you in here for a few more days


while we wait for it The problems that we face can only


be solved really by social services creating spaces for people


in accommodation, be that for homeless drug users


or for people awaiting rehousing There's a big disconnect


between the NHS and social services and the NHS gets blamed quite a lot


for problems in the community which are rarely slightly outside


of our remit and outside You can see the concern. It is on


the consultant's face. I wonder how big a problem this is and how it is


reflected in the NHS. This morning we got a big dump of data from the


NHS which included the results of the monthly survey they do, one


night they go around and check how many Detocs are happening across NHS


England. We can show on a graft. This is the number of delayed


transfers of care on that night each month going back to 2011. There's


quite a clear pattern. If we draw a line in 2013 it becomes more


obvious. On the left-hand side, it bombs around and there is a clear


seasonal pattern but it is basically flat. Since 2013 it has been riding


very steadily and it has been accelerating recently. It may help


to understand more if we pull out a number for 2013 and the number for


November, 2016. The number has gone from about 4200, to 6000, a 60%


increase in the number of people stuck in hospital overnight on


census day. The reason for the rise is quite complicated but broadly


speaking, 10% of people are waiting for the residential care and 25% are


looking to go to a nursing home and others are looking for some kind of


support package. Of the extra, the big rise that's causing the


problems, about is caused by local authority social services not being


able to cope and 40% is the internal problems within the NHS. Thank you


for joining us. No doubt we will talk about this again.


Cyprus is a country that has been split since 1974 -


an island that many of us know as a popular holiday destination


bathed in Mediterranean sun - not overshadowed by a history


UN peacekeeping forces estimate that 165,000 Greek Cypriots fled


or were expelled from the north, and 45,000 Turkish Cypriots from


the south, during the conflict - others say the figures


Greece and Turkey are now working towards the reunification


of the island, with talks in Geneva bringing the two sides


But there will be many sticking points during the negotiations.


Selin Girit has this report from the island.


There is something very eerie about this place.


This used to be the main International Airport in Cyprus.


Now it's been abandoned for over 40 years.


I'm in the middle of the buffer zone.


Nicosia is Europe's the last divided city.


Its ghost airport, a monument to the scars it bears.


In 1974, a Greek inspired military coup in the South was met


with a Turkish invasion of the North.


But it has led to almost half a century of ethnic division.


The internationally-recognised Greek Cypriot government controls


the south of the island, while Turkish Cypriots


The 66-year-old Turkish Cypriot lives on the border town of Morphe.


The 60s and 70s saw hundreds of thousands forced to relocate.


Moved north in a population exchange.


You are taken from your house, from your village.


You are being moved to some unknown town.


Like many people living in Morphe he was given a house that used


The Geneva talks could see the town change hands and people


Despite nearly half a century here, he's remarkably philosophical.


I can't say that I will be so sad to give the house


I don't want my children to live the wars that we have lived.


So it is more important to find a solution, to have peace,


than to move from one house to another.


He tells me, "if I have to move out from here,


I will have another garden in the new home that I make."


But his attitude is not shared by everyone in Morphe.


For some, any change will be painful and bitterly opposed.


A few miles down the road, at an orthodox cemetery,


there is a reminder that many lost more than their homes.


Here, Greek and Turkish Cypriot archaeologists work side-by-side,


digging deep trenches to find and identify people who went missing


They have already dug out the remains of 25 people


It's a big deal for both communities.


And by finding these people you are delivering them back


to the family so they can have a proper burial,


they can have their family visiting the grave.


And so this trauma will close, it will heal.


Once bodies are found, they are brought here.


At the lab at the Committee of Missing People, the process


Sometimes it takes a long time to reconstruct it from small pieces.


At the end, I think we have a good result.


So far we have identified about 720 individuals on both communities.


And the total number of the missing people is about 2,000.


But that means over 1,000 still lie in the Cypriot soil.


If there was not a coup, was there an invasion?


One of them is one victim's younger brother, George.


He was a nice, good-looking young man.


This is a very deep wound which will stay there.


The wound may close but the big scar will stay there


I don't believe a solution will come in the next two


If they start changing the education system,


if they start changing things, even now they are spreading


So what we have here is exceptional, if you think of what this country


Half of this table is Turkish Cypriot and the other


They are drinking their traditional drink and toasting to


This is not the last chance for peace.


We, the new generation, we create the piece.


I am waiting for this all of my life.


I'm so excited and the same time, emotional.


This time, they woke up from the ten years sleeping and now it's time


for us to have a change in our island.


In Geneva, a game of diplomacy is on, which move to make?


Here in Cyprus, the hope is neither side loses.


We are joined by the North Cyprus Representative


We did ask the Cypriot government for an interview,


but they were not able to give us anyone.


Welcome. We have just understood that the talks finished a short time


ago in Geneva without agreement. They will reconvene on January 18.


There seem to be some sticking points. What do you think they might


be? I think right now the Turkish Cypriots side is determined to


continue with the talks in Geneva until we reach a final solution.


What would be the sticking points? There may be more than one sticking


point. Each and every item will be considered. Let's talk about one


that has been brought up. Grease once its territory increased. It


would mean that Turkey's portion of land would be diminished. Is that


realistic to expect the Turkish Cypriots side to agree to that? I


think the Turkish Cypriots side is there to negotiate the issue of


territory as well as any other issue. And yes, both sides will make


their demands. I think the Turkish Cypriots side really wants to do a


minimal uprooting of people when the issue of territory will be


discussed. How much of an effect would 6% have? I wouldn't be able to


tell you that. But we will -- there will be percentages discussed and


with they will reach a mutually agreeable solution. But the most


important thing for Turkish Cypriots is to have a minimal number of


people uprooted from their current homes. The reason I ask you about


this is that President Erdogan has been quite reluctant to exceed any


land or change this percentage and this will be a sticking point. We


don't want this, surely, to be this the state of play moving forward? I


think the Turkish Cypriots side really wants to move on because the


negotiations have started in 1968. 448 years, we have been negotiating,


to reach a final agreement, a settlement agreement, which will


hopefully be taken to a referendum by both sides simultaneously. Before


we talk about the referendum and when they may take place, there are


30,000 troops come Turkish troops, patrolling the north. How open is


the negotiating table from the Turkish Cypriot side to them being


removed, being made part of the UN peacekeeping force? As you know, the


UN peacekeeping force arrived in March 19 64. Turkish troops came in


1974. Things have happened between the two dates. If any issue of


troops is going to be discussed, I'm sure it will be discussed. What do


you think the likely conclusion is? I cannot guess. No one can guess.


I'm sure even people in Geneva cannot guess. It's a question of


discussions. People may have expectations. But when you are doing


negotiations, you are trying to reach something mutually agreeable.


How likely do you think there will be success? There is a specific


timetable. There is hope the referendum can take place by the end


of April. Is that likely to happen? If things continue in Geneva, why


not? It's all a question of intent. So we could see a reunified Cyprus


by the end of this year? I hope so. If possible. Thank you very much for


joining us. Thank you. Wayne McGregor has now been resident


choreographer at the Royal Ballet in London for a decade -


the first person in that role to come from a contemporary


dance background. A high accolade, on top


of his already impressive He has collaborated


with high-profile musicians such as the White Stripes,


Paloma Faith and He's also choreographed films


including Fantastic Beasts, Our Special Correspondent,


Katie Razzall, has been hearing According to him, there


is a dancer in us all. What's amazing about dance is it's


connected to everybody As likely to work with Radiohead


as the Royal Ballet, at his best Wayne McGregor's


choreography fuses dance, Not bad for a boy from


Stockport who found early What was it about John Travolta that


got you into this whole thing? I think it was just his


passion for dancing. He just kind of came


alive on the dance floor. And you see this physical


kind of vitality. It's just amazing when you see


somebody kind of live So I started ballroom


dancing lessons, disco Some people like to dance


when no one is looking. I think what's interesting


is everybody has a personal So when I came in the room and met


you today, I already have a sense of something about you,


the way in which you greeted me, the way in which you had eye


contact, the way in which your body How far or how distanced


you started to communicate, In a way choreography or dance


making is about that. It's about that


transaction of energy. There's just something primal


about ideas of physicality that A one-time research fellow


at Cambridge University, McGregor's fascination with science


and technology has seen him collaborate with neurologists


to understand more about how mind And what that means for the creative


process. It is partly just a fascination of what happens


cognitively when you are moving. In the olden days we would have this


idea that the brain and body This kind of sense that


we're all just walking But actually we know, and we know


this because of in-body technology, the way in which we are using


technology now, that actually And I'm just interested to find


out more about that. What does it mean to


think about something? If I'm about to reach


and touch your shoulder, already I've got a sense of how far


I have to reach before I touch you, All those things happen intuitively


in my brain before I do it. And that's a version


of physical thinking. And what we're doing


as dancers is doing a more A decade into his role


as resident choreography at London's the Royal Ballet,


McGregor is rehearsing a revival There you go, there


you go, you do it. You already have a kinaesthetic


response to that. That sense of sound shapes the


dynamic. My job in a way is to recognise


what that special signature is, what that feel is, and use it


to develop something that says something about our ideas,


that says something about you. What are you trying


to say about the world? I think I'm trying to say


that the world isn't complete. It's a partial view,


it's fragmented. There are a lot of those


old-fashioned traditional ballet They can keep thinking there are,


but why would there be? And we don't want an art


form that is dying. We want an art form that


truly vibrant and alive, I mean, are there


issues you care about? I think making art is


political in itself. Education is political,


empowering people to think creatively and challenge


the system is political. This is one of the big challenges


of the stem argument, this reduction of arts


education in schools. It's really important


first of all to get those One of the drivers to get


them into school is very And then to see the crosstalk


between maths and music, rhythm and mathematics,


organisation and spatial organisation, really


important terms of geometry. There are some important


ways in which these In his quest for crosstalk, McGregor


has collaborated with a whole host From Mark Wallinger


and the White Stripes, to Mark Ronson, Paloma Faith


and Radiohead's Thom Yorke. And he has an amazing ability to be


really real and just be himself. That's why you get this


amazing raw physicality. I guess when you're working


with somebody like that, my job is to recognise it,


find it, and just It's not to go, "Well,


let's move like this." The technological process


of that is very different. That pushes some of your


buttons, doesn't it? And it was one shot,


you probably noticed. So the camera shows four


and a half minutes. And then that really,


really long technological process. Please join me in welcoming


the lovely ladies... As movement director


on this Harry Potter, But there's a Wayne McGregor


signature to Alexander Skarsgard's performance in The Legend of Tarzan,


if you look carefully. And his latest endeavour


was Fantastic Beasts. When you're working


on something like the obscurus in Fantastic Beasts,


how can you make some physical activity that then


is motion-captured that But it's also about


characterisation, finding small physical detail,


and so there is a huge amount of choreographers working in film,


or movement directors in film, What we do physically


and constantly, we get into habits. We live our lives in


a very habit-formed way. I think to remain curious


and open to the world, you really have too actively change


something about yourself, whether that's watching the kinds


of films you never normally watch, whether that's going to a gig


you never normally go to, whether that's watching dancing


the way that you wouldn't, whether that's picking up poetry,


it doesn't really matter. And I think that keeps you really


engaged and alive, and all your And I think that's what we always


want in life, to be highly attuned. And you can watch Katie Razzall's


full interview with Wayne McGregor James O'Brien will be here tomorrow


night. Goodbye. Good evening. A wintry night out


there. Sleet and snow showers pushing south during the course of


the night. First thing in


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