12/01/2017 Newsnight


12/01/2017

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Naga Munchetty.


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The leaked Trump dossier - what did the British authorities know?

:00:00.:00:08.

Who in Whitehall saw it, and who knew what impact it

:00:09.:00:11.

We'll talk to a former MI6 officer and a man who's been personally

:00:12.:00:17.

Also tonight, we report from Cyprus, where signs are that

:00:18.:00:22.

But in some quarters, wounds still run deep.

:00:23.:00:27.

I don't believe a solution will come in the next two

:00:28.:00:30.

If they start changing the education system, if they start

:00:31.:00:37.

changing the Dhekelia, even now they are spreading

:00:38.:00:39.

We ask the Northern Cypriot Representative to the UK

:00:40.:00:44.

And we talk to choreographer Wayne McGregor about how

:00:45.:00:49.

Some people like to dance when when no-one's looking

:00:50.:01:00.

I think what's interesting, everybody has a personal

:01:01.:01:03.

A salacious memo - slapped down as fake news

:01:04.:01:17.

and vehemently denied by President-elect Trump

:01:18.:01:21.

yesterday at his first news conference since July.

:01:22.:01:23.

Today, he tweeted that the US Intelligence Service said it was

:01:24.:01:26.

In fact, James Clapper, the Director of National Intelligence,

:01:27.:01:30.

effectively distanced the US Intelligence Agency

:01:31.:01:33.

from the unverified video, saying it didn't leak it and hadn't

:01:34.:01:36.

Since then, the spotlight has been shone on the man credited

:01:37.:01:43.

with producing the memo - Christopher Steele, a former MI6

:01:44.:01:45.

officer respected by British intelligence agencies,

:01:46.:01:49.

The focus is now on what British intelligence knew and whether

:01:50.:01:56.

anything made its way onto ministers' desks.

:01:57.:01:59.

But the wider question persists - is this a scandal of Watergate

:02:00.:02:03.

proportions, or one of the biggest smears in the history of politics?

:02:04.:02:06.

Here's our Diplomatic Editor, Mark Urban.

:02:07.:02:19.

We're learning more about the world of private intelligence gathering

:02:20.:02:23.

and how information gleaned from across the globe -- Globe was

:02:24.:02:29.

assembled in the Trump files, and what was done with them. There was a

:02:30.:02:36.

London connection. The offices of Orbis, a small private firms set up

:02:37.:02:42.

by a former company of MI6 officers, commissioned in this case by

:02:43.:02:46.

American paymasters to dig the dirt on Trump. A series of reports was

:02:47.:02:52.

filed by August between June and December last year. Taken together,

:02:53.:02:59.

they presented such a serious catalogue of alleged wrongdoing is

:03:00.:03:03.

surrounding Mr Trump and his campaign, that those in receipt of

:03:04.:03:06.

the reports decided they would have to be sent to the FBI. And people

:03:07.:03:14.

here, I've been told, Kimberly conclusion that meant MI6 would also

:03:15.:03:20.

have to be put in the picture. The reports were put together by

:03:21.:03:24.

Christopher Steele, who had served as an MI6 intelligence officer in

:03:25.:03:30.

Russia and France. He and a partner founded August business intelligence

:03:31.:03:35.

when he left the service in 2009. He is reported to have provided

:03:36.:03:38.

information on the Fifa corruption case to the FBI. So evidently, they

:03:39.:03:48.

regarded him as sound. Yesterday though, Trump trashed several of the

:03:49.:03:52.

most extraordinary claims in the memos. I think it's a disgrace that

:03:53.:03:58.

information would be let out. I saw the information, I read the

:03:59.:04:02.

information outside of that meeting. It's all fake news, it's phoney

:04:03.:04:07.

stuff, it didn't happen. But while Donald Trump yesterday claimed James

:04:08.:04:12.

Clapper had denounced the report, today the director of national

:04:13.:04:16.

intelligence without a public statement saying something quite

:04:17.:04:17.

different. Leaving aside the private

:04:18.:04:33.

intelligence gathering with all its apparent faults, the official US

:04:34.:04:39.

intelligence community view, presented at Trump Tower last week,

:04:40.:04:46.

was of a gross violation of American democracy in favour of the Trump

:04:47.:04:51.

campaign by Russia. A verdict that his own nominee to run the CIA

:04:52.:04:56.

endorsed today. Everything I've seen suggests to me that the report has

:04:57.:05:06.

an analytical product that is sound. But as Mr Pompeo and the other

:05:07.:05:10.

inductees move into position, Trump supporters expect the way

:05:11.:05:14.

intelligence is presented to change. It is very convenient for them to

:05:15.:05:24.

delegitimise ties -- delegitimise Donald Trump. They don't like him,

:05:25.:05:27.

they don't want him, they want Mrs Clinton and they want Barack Obama,

:05:28.:05:32.

who appointed them. But remember, you can have a whole new group of

:05:33.:05:38.

people running these agencies as soon as his appointees are confirmed

:05:39.:05:43.

by the Senate. With that happening, you are good to see a change in tone

:05:44.:05:49.

and temperament. What did MI6 do with the reports it received? The

:05:50.:05:53.

government today was remaining tight-lipped. But one person

:05:54.:05:57.

familiar with the service's procedures told me that MI6 wouldn't

:05:58.:06:01.

normally circulate such material if it wasn't aware of the identity of

:06:02.:06:08.

sources from which it was drawn. So the answer seems to be, they kept it

:06:09.:06:14.

largely to themselves. I think it would have been a pretty borderline

:06:15.:06:23.

case if the material was not well sourced, if the source wasn't

:06:24.:06:28.

identified, and if the source couldn't be assessed in terms of

:06:29.:06:31.

reliability or access and credibility. I think the agency is

:06:32.:06:38.

quite likely have been pretty cautious about putting it out. Since

:06:39.:06:45.

the Butler report, since the Chilcot Report, they have become much more

:06:46.:06:48.

rigorous, much more prudent in the way they present intelligence. As

:06:49.:06:56.

for the fallout from this, the former MI6 man, Christopher Steele,

:06:57.:07:01.

was not at home to chorus today. The focus though is shifting, back from

:07:02.:07:06.

the credibility of his reporting, to the bigger question about the spies

:07:07.:07:07.

and how they deal with Trump. about the spies and how

:07:08.:07:08.

they deal with Trump. Let's talk to our Political Editor

:07:09.:07:10.

Nick Watt, who has more details Good evening. Christopher Steele

:07:11.:07:20.

passed this on to MI6. What happened next? I can only echo what was said

:07:21.:07:25.

in the film. I understand these documents were not passed on to

:07:26.:07:29.

ministers, neither were ministers briefed about them when they were

:07:30.:07:32.

passed over. Whether they have been briefed in recent days, that is

:07:33.:07:36.

another matter. You might have thought that a bin and century

:07:37.:07:40.

reports like this ends up add MI6, it would end up on the desks of

:07:41.:07:45.

senior ministers and at the White House. But what happened was a

:07:46.:07:50.

judgment was made that these reports were not really compiled to the

:07:51.:07:54.

standard you would expect of MI6, and with that in mind, MI6 had to

:07:55.:08:00.

make a judgment about whether it would be helpful or Makkonen helpful

:08:01.:08:02.

to briefed ministers. Clearly they reached something of a political

:08:03.:08:07.

judgment based on those procedures mark was talking about, that was

:08:08.:08:12.

best to put some distance between ministers and these reports. What is

:08:13.:08:15.

the feeling in Whitehall that you are sensing about what has been

:08:16.:08:23.

revealed? It's a bit sniffy, really. What I'm hearing is he is not an

:08:24.:08:27.

intelligence agent. He is a businessman. He runs a business

:08:28.:08:31.

model. He is essentially saying to clients, I can dig deeper and find

:08:32.:08:37.

lots of information about rivals or political opponents. There is a

:08:38.:08:40.

feeling that the reports are showing off. That there is one sensational

:08:41.:08:45.

claim after another. There are very few of the caveats you would expect

:08:46.:08:49.

in an official intelligence report. We know all about caveats. The

:08:50.:08:54.

Butler report into the use of intelligence in the lead to the Iraq

:08:55.:09:00.

war said that the Blair government, the joint intelligence committee,

:09:01.:09:05.

had perhaps stripped out some of the caveats in the intelligence

:09:06.:09:08.

presented. Let me add my own little caveat. It's not a great surprise

:09:09.:09:12.

that officially we are finding a bit of a sniffy UK response. Obviously

:09:13.:09:18.

macro Britain needs to big -- build bridges with the incoming Trump

:09:19.:09:19.

bridges with the incoming Trump administration.

:09:20.:09:21.

Let's talk now to Harry Ferguson, who is a former MI6 officer.

:09:22.:09:23.

Thank you for joining us. We were just hearing their that Christopher

:09:24.:09:34.

Steele is a businessman, a man respected by many intelligence

:09:35.:09:43.

agencies. Your take on him? Yes, I have met Chris once as an

:09:44.:09:45.

intelligence and Security Conference. He always struck me as a

:09:46.:09:49.

very affable and very reliable sort of guy not given to flights of

:09:50.:09:52.

fancy. I also know him through mutual friends. Another work of his

:09:53.:10:01.

company. They are a reliable agency. Chris was a strong middle ranking

:10:02.:10:06.

SAS officer. I don't quite agree that this was a subpar report. It

:10:07.:10:10.

seems to me that Chris has been quite careful to try to find as many

:10:11.:10:15.

sources as possible, but also to make it clear that these are stories

:10:16.:10:20.

and that what his report has at the moment, it lacks that killer

:10:21.:10:25.

evidence. What kind of stories are there? Joe Public, Wii, don't see

:10:26.:10:30.

reports like this. What scale do we put it against, the National

:10:31.:10:37.

Enquirer, or something as -- akin to a government led report? It's not

:10:38.:10:42.

quite the Premier League that an SAS report would be. It's more a leading

:10:43.:10:48.

Championship side. One of the things that's missing from this report that

:10:49.:10:53.

you would normally find in an MI6 report is an indication of just how

:10:54.:10:58.

long these sources have been in contact, and how reliable their

:10:59.:11:02.

reporting has been in the past. That sort of caveat is missing. But the

:11:03.:11:06.

intelligence included in this document really falls into three

:11:07.:11:10.

parts. The first is to suggest that the Russians have been feeding

:11:11.:11:14.

intelligence about the Democrats to the Trump campaign. The second is

:11:15.:11:17.

one particular incident which appears to have occurred in 2013,

:11:18.:11:23.

the one involving supposedly Russian prostitute in Moscow. Chris has

:11:24.:11:28.

managed to dig up four different sources, because he wants to back

:11:29.:11:32.

that up. There is another story that the Russians have been collecting

:11:33.:11:35.

compromising intelligence about Trump for a very long time. That

:11:36.:11:40.

also has a certain amount of credibility. I think Trump was

:11:41.:11:44.

surprised to become president now. I don't think he was thinking about it

:11:45.:11:48.

ten years ago. He is a wealthy man used to getting his own ways. Chris

:11:49.:11:53.

has found these stories, tried to corroborate them and he has put them

:11:54.:12:00.

out there. But he does not have that final piece of evidence. The reason

:12:01.:12:03.

we have not seen either the SAS, the CAA or the FBI move on it is that

:12:04.:12:07.

they don't have it either. Nobody can quite find the definitive story.

:12:08.:12:13.

If the information is out there but can't be corroborated, why wouldn't

:12:14.:12:17.

the intelligence services here have passed that to ministers, or is the

:12:18.:12:22.

implication that it has already been discussed? Well, that's just it.

:12:23.:12:27.

Chris worked in SAS for 20 years. Most of the sources he is using

:12:28.:12:33.

would be once he built up. You would assume that in the seven years since

:12:34.:12:38.

he left, other sources have recruited. He would have tried to

:12:39.:12:44.

add sources himself. SYS should have already been aware that this

:12:45.:12:49.

information was out there. I was at a Conference last week for

:12:50.:12:52.

intelligence professionals and there was a love of gossip about this

:12:53.:12:57.

story before it broke. People said they had heard rumours last year at

:12:58.:13:03.

times. I think they looked at it and said, we haven't got anything new

:13:04.:13:06.

that we are not already reporting. It doesn't enhance what we have put

:13:07.:13:10.

out there. There is no need to let ministers know. They might have led

:13:11.:13:14.

the Americans know what Chris was working on. A question was made

:13:15.:13:18.

about not knowing what his sources were. They could have gone to him.

:13:19.:13:22.

They could have asked him. I suspect they already knew. Harry Ferguson,

:13:23.:13:24.

thank you for your time. Harry Ferguson, thank

:13:25.:13:26.

you for your time. Someone else caught up in the Trump

:13:27.:13:27.

memo scandal is Rick Wilson, a Republican party strategist

:13:28.:13:30.

and Trump critic. He was accused of being

:13:31.:13:32.

behind the Trump memo, and of leaking it to the CIA -

:13:33.:13:34.

a charge he has denied. Rick now joins us from

:13:35.:13:37.

Tallahassee, Florida. Thank you for joining us. How did

:13:38.:13:50.

you get caught up in this? Well, I've been a prominent person in the

:13:51.:13:56.

anti-Trump movement and a critic of Donald Trump for well over a year

:13:57.:14:02.

now and when the online forum decided to claim that they had

:14:03.:14:09.

written the memo as a prank, they put my name into the chain of

:14:10.:14:13.

accusations, that they had leaked it to me and I had taken it to the CIA

:14:14.:14:19.

and John McCain. It is readable and absurd but we live in an era, in

:14:20.:14:24.

American journalism, the post-fact are, so Conservative journalists

:14:25.:14:30.

took off with the story, believing it verbatim, even though it came

:14:31.:14:34.

from an anonymous forum, easily demonstrated to be false and my

:14:35.:14:39.

alleged role was easily demonstrated to be false, mainly because these

:14:40.:14:44.

folks don't understand how politics and media and journalism works in

:14:45.:14:52.

the US. How does politics and media work over there? You've denied any

:14:53.:14:55.

relationship to the memo and you've established that but the fact is, as

:14:56.:15:00.

a person who's worked in opposition research, your job is to dig dirt,

:15:01.:15:06.

isn't it, on the opposition, in order to sully their reputation,

:15:07.:15:10.

isn't that how it works? I'm actually the guy who hires the

:15:11.:15:14.

opposition researchers and yes, we use opposition research to establish

:15:15.:15:19.

a fact in a campaign so you can look at another candidate and say that

:15:20.:15:22.

their message doesn't fit with what they are claiming, their record

:15:23.:15:26.

doesn't fit with what they're claiming, their behaviour doesn't

:15:27.:15:32.

fit and to go after the predicates of their candidacy. Donald Trump

:15:33.:15:36.

claims to be a multi-billionaire, a successful international businessman

:15:37.:15:39.

but he's been very careful about hiding his relationships in the

:15:40.:15:43.

business community, so folks like me in the primary, well before this

:15:44.:15:49.

silly fabricated version came out, and well before the Christopher

:15:50.:15:53.

Steele report came out, we were looking at those relationships and

:15:54.:15:56.

that's where a lot of the pursuit was, looking at the secrets behind

:15:57.:16:01.

the opacity established by Trump hiding his tax returns and going

:16:02.:16:04.

after the business relationships, overseas in particular. Why do you

:16:05.:16:10.

think this has come out now? Many said that there were rumours last

:16:11.:16:14.

autumn, last fall as you might say, but why now? The first contact I had

:16:15.:16:22.

was a major investigative reporter for a TV network reached out and

:16:23.:16:27.

said, do you know anything, can you check with your people? This was in

:16:28.:16:30.

discussion last summer and there were rumours before that. Even some

:16:31.:16:38.

jokes in pop culture on the Howard Stern Show before that. Why it pop

:16:39.:16:44.

now is simple. The intelligence community has been told by Donald

:16:45.:16:47.

Trump that they are one of his enemies, he has declared war on the

:16:48.:16:51.

US intelligence community, questioning their judgment,

:16:52.:16:54.

professionalism, and patria Chisholm. This is something you're

:16:55.:17:01.

going to see when they are up against the wall like this --

:17:02.:17:05.

patriotism. They will play with elbows out, and I don't blame them,

:17:06.:17:09.

he has put much more trust in VanderMeer Putin and the FSB rather

:17:10.:17:15.

than the CIA -- Vladimir Putin. Has he successfully batted this away? It

:17:16.:17:23.

is the biggest political bet he's going to make, that he can bluster

:17:24.:17:29.

his way out of this, that there is nothing there, that at no time in

:17:30.:17:33.

his trips to Russia did he engage in any behaviour that was caught on

:17:34.:17:38.

tape and that's a big bet. If he's right, he's right, but if not it

:17:39.:17:42.

will have significant consequences for his credibility. Thank you for

:17:43.:17:43.

joining us. The pressure and strain that the NHS

:17:44.:17:46.

is under has been well It's experiencing its worst ever

:17:47.:17:49.

winter crisis, the Royal College of Physicians and the Royal College

:17:50.:17:54.

of Nursing has warned. Many patients are not receiving

:17:55.:17:59.

care when they need it. The government's target

:18:00.:18:01.

for A patients to be treated within four hours,

:18:02.:18:03.

hasn't been met for 16 months - a target that is speculated

:18:04.:18:06.

will be soon adjusted. Beds are being blocked,

:18:07.:18:08.

causing much-needed operations to be delayed, with the head of NHS

:18:09.:18:12.

England calling for extra funding for social care so that

:18:13.:18:15.

patients can be released. Chris Cook, Policy Editor,

:18:16.:18:17.

is tracking the problems There's a documentary that is

:18:18.:18:27.

reflecting the challenges that NHS is facing. That's right, Hospital,

:18:28.:18:33.

BBC Two on Wednesday, it is excellent and we are going to show

:18:34.:18:38.

you a clip which illustrates the important challenge facing the NHS,

:18:39.:18:48.

the delayed transfer of care, called a Detoc, meaning a patient who needs

:18:49.:18:54.

care, but the hospital would like to be delivered by somebody else,

:18:55.:18:58.

cannot be moved out because the next person in the chain of care is not

:18:59.:19:05.

ready to take them. These Detocs are a serious problem because it means

:19:06.:19:08.

there are not enough beds in the hospital, the patient can get stuck

:19:09.:19:12.

in the wrong place and it can gum up everything. If you can't admit new

:19:13.:19:15.

patients, that is difficult for because the two to deal with and it

:19:16.:19:20.

feeds into the A problems. The case were about to see is from the

:19:21.:19:24.

documentary, a patient called Dolly. 91-year-old Dolly is waiting to find

:19:25.:19:30.

out if she can be discharged today. When we saw you earlier

:19:31.:19:34.

on this morning, you were As you know, we'd hoped to get

:19:35.:19:43.

you home later, well, not home, but to Willesden Community Hospital

:19:44.:19:47.

this morning for a bit of rehabilitation and

:19:48.:19:50.

some convalescence. But I think given that

:19:51.:19:51.

you had your collapse this morning, we should probably keep an eye

:19:52.:19:54.

on you here. So what I think we're going to do

:19:55.:19:56.

is hang on to you for at least another 24-hours and then we'll send

:19:57.:20:01.

the referral again But unfortunately, because they've

:20:02.:20:04.

given the bed up to another patient this morning,

:20:05.:20:07.

we might end up having to keep you in here for a few more days

:20:08.:20:09.

while we wait for it The problems that we face can only

:20:10.:20:13.

be solved really by social services creating spaces for people

:20:14.:20:21.

in accommodation, be that for homeless drug users

:20:22.:20:23.

or for people awaiting rehousing There's a big disconnect

:20:24.:20:25.

between the NHS and social services and the NHS gets blamed quite a lot

:20:26.:20:30.

for problems in the community which are rarely slightly outside

:20:31.:20:33.

of our remit and outside You can see the concern. It is on

:20:34.:20:49.

the consultant's face. I wonder how big a problem this is and how it is

:20:50.:20:54.

reflected in the NHS. This morning we got a big dump of data from the

:20:55.:20:58.

NHS which included the results of the monthly survey they do, one

:20:59.:21:04.

night they go around and check how many Detocs are happening across NHS

:21:05.:21:11.

England. We can show on a graft. This is the number of delayed

:21:12.:21:15.

transfers of care on that night each month going back to 2011. There's

:21:16.:21:22.

quite a clear pattern. If we draw a line in 2013 it becomes more

:21:23.:21:27.

obvious. On the left-hand side, it bombs around and there is a clear

:21:28.:21:31.

seasonal pattern but it is basically flat. Since 2013 it has been riding

:21:32.:21:36.

very steadily and it has been accelerating recently. It may help

:21:37.:21:41.

to understand more if we pull out a number for 2013 and the number for

:21:42.:21:49.

November, 2016. The number has gone from about 4200, to 6000, a 60%

:21:50.:21:55.

increase in the number of people stuck in hospital overnight on

:21:56.:22:00.

census day. The reason for the rise is quite complicated but broadly

:22:01.:22:05.

speaking, 10% of people are waiting for the residential care and 25% are

:22:06.:22:12.

looking to go to a nursing home and others are looking for some kind of

:22:13.:22:17.

support package. Of the extra, the big rise that's causing the

:22:18.:22:22.

problems, about is caused by local authority social services not being

:22:23.:22:27.

able to cope and 40% is the internal problems within the NHS. Thank you

:22:28.:22:31.

for joining us. No doubt we will talk about this again.

:22:32.:22:33.

Cyprus is a country that has been split since 1974 -

:22:34.:22:36.

an island that many of us know as a popular holiday destination

:22:37.:22:39.

bathed in Mediterranean sun - not overshadowed by a history

:22:40.:22:42.

UN peacekeeping forces estimate that 165,000 Greek Cypriots fled

:22:43.:22:49.

or were expelled from the north, and 45,000 Turkish Cypriots from

:22:50.:22:53.

the south, during the conflict - others say the figures

:22:54.:22:56.

Greece and Turkey are now working towards the reunification

:22:57.:23:01.

of the island, with talks in Geneva bringing the two sides

:23:02.:23:06.

But there will be many sticking points during the negotiations.

:23:07.:23:10.

Selin Girit has this report from the island.

:23:11.:23:19.

There is something very eerie about this place.

:23:20.:23:24.

This used to be the main International Airport in Cyprus.

:23:25.:23:28.

Now it's been abandoned for over 40 years.

:23:29.:23:30.

I'm in the middle of the buffer zone.

:23:31.:23:34.

Nicosia is Europe's the last divided city.

:23:35.:23:43.

Its ghost airport, a monument to the scars it bears.

:23:44.:23:52.

In 1974, a Greek inspired military coup in the South was met

:23:53.:23:55.

with a Turkish invasion of the North.

:23:56.:23:58.

But it has led to almost half a century of ethnic division.

:23:59.:24:06.

The internationally-recognised Greek Cypriot government controls

:24:07.:24:09.

the south of the island, while Turkish Cypriots

:24:10.:24:11.

The 66-year-old Turkish Cypriot lives on the border town of Morphe.

:24:12.:24:26.

The 60s and 70s saw hundreds of thousands forced to relocate.

:24:27.:24:36.

Moved north in a population exchange.

:24:37.:24:44.

You are taken from your house, from your village.

:24:45.:24:49.

You are being moved to some unknown town.

:24:50.:24:54.

Like many people living in Morphe he was given a house that used

:24:55.:25:00.

The Geneva talks could see the town change hands and people

:25:01.:25:06.

Despite nearly half a century here, he's remarkably philosophical.

:25:07.:25:13.

I can't say that I will be so sad to give the house

:25:14.:25:16.

I don't want my children to live the wars that we have lived.

:25:17.:25:27.

So it is more important to find a solution, to have peace,

:25:28.:25:32.

than to move from one house to another.

:25:33.:25:41.

He tells me, "if I have to move out from here,

:25:42.:25:44.

I will have another garden in the new home that I make."

:25:45.:25:48.

But his attitude is not shared by everyone in Morphe.

:25:49.:25:51.

For some, any change will be painful and bitterly opposed.

:25:52.:25:57.

A few miles down the road, at an orthodox cemetery,

:25:58.:26:05.

there is a reminder that many lost more than their homes.

:26:06.:26:09.

Here, Greek and Turkish Cypriot archaeologists work side-by-side,

:26:10.:26:13.

digging deep trenches to find and identify people who went missing

:26:14.:26:16.

They have already dug out the remains of 25 people

:26:17.:26:22.

It's a big deal for both communities.

:26:23.:26:26.

And by finding these people you are delivering them back

:26:27.:26:33.

to the family so they can have a proper burial,

:26:34.:26:37.

they can have their family visiting the grave.

:26:38.:26:41.

And so this trauma will close, it will heal.

:26:42.:26:45.

Once bodies are found, they are brought here.

:26:46.:26:51.

At the lab at the Committee of Missing People, the process

:26:52.:26:54.

Sometimes it takes a long time to reconstruct it from small pieces.

:26:55.:27:02.

At the end, I think we have a good result.

:27:03.:27:06.

So far we have identified about 720 individuals on both communities.

:27:07.:27:14.

And the total number of the missing people is about 2,000.

:27:15.:27:20.

But that means over 1,000 still lie in the Cypriot soil.

:27:21.:27:26.

If there was not a coup, was there an invasion?

:27:27.:27:31.

One of them is one victim's younger brother, George.

:27:32.:27:33.

He was a nice, good-looking young man.

:27:34.:27:41.

This is a very deep wound which will stay there.

:27:42.:27:50.

The wound may close but the big scar will stay there

:27:51.:27:53.

I don't believe a solution will come in the next two

:27:54.:28:00.

If they start changing the education system,

:28:01.:28:06.

if they start changing things, even now they are spreading

:28:07.:28:09.

So what we have here is exceptional, if you think of what this country

:28:10.:28:29.

Half of this table is Turkish Cypriot and the other

:28:30.:28:36.

They are drinking their traditional drink and toasting to

:28:37.:28:44.

This is not the last chance for peace.

:28:45.:28:48.

We, the new generation, we create the piece.

:28:49.:28:51.

I am waiting for this all of my life.

:28:52.:28:55.

I'm so excited and the same time, emotional.

:28:56.:29:01.

This time, they woke up from the ten years sleeping and now it's time

:29:02.:29:05.

for us to have a change in our island.

:29:06.:29:11.

In Geneva, a game of diplomacy is on, which move to make?

:29:12.:29:13.

Here in Cyprus, the hope is neither side loses.

:29:14.:29:23.

We are joined by the North Cyprus Representative

:29:24.:29:25.

We did ask the Cypriot government for an interview,

:29:26.:29:28.

but they were not able to give us anyone.

:29:29.:29:32.

Welcome. We have just understood that the talks finished a short time

:29:33.:29:43.

ago in Geneva without agreement. They will reconvene on January 18.

:29:44.:29:48.

There seem to be some sticking points. What do you think they might

:29:49.:29:55.

be? I think right now the Turkish Cypriots side is determined to

:29:56.:30:00.

continue with the talks in Geneva until we reach a final solution.

:30:01.:30:06.

What would be the sticking points? There may be more than one sticking

:30:07.:30:11.

point. Each and every item will be considered. Let's talk about one

:30:12.:30:16.

that has been brought up. Grease once its territory increased. It

:30:17.:30:24.

would mean that Turkey's portion of land would be diminished. Is that

:30:25.:30:28.

realistic to expect the Turkish Cypriots side to agree to that? I

:30:29.:30:34.

think the Turkish Cypriots side is there to negotiate the issue of

:30:35.:30:38.

territory as well as any other issue. And yes, both sides will make

:30:39.:30:43.

their demands. I think the Turkish Cypriots side really wants to do a

:30:44.:30:49.

minimal uprooting of people when the issue of territory will be

:30:50.:30:53.

discussed. How much of an effect would 6% have? I wouldn't be able to

:30:54.:31:01.

tell you that. But we will -- there will be percentages discussed and

:31:02.:31:04.

with they will reach a mutually agreeable solution. But the most

:31:05.:31:08.

important thing for Turkish Cypriots is to have a minimal number of

:31:09.:31:11.

people uprooted from their current homes. The reason I ask you about

:31:12.:31:16.

this is that President Erdogan has been quite reluctant to exceed any

:31:17.:31:22.

land or change this percentage and this will be a sticking point. We

:31:23.:31:31.

don't want this, surely, to be this the state of play moving forward? I

:31:32.:31:36.

think the Turkish Cypriots side really wants to move on because the

:31:37.:31:43.

negotiations have started in 1968. 448 years, we have been negotiating,

:31:44.:31:50.

to reach a final agreement, a settlement agreement, which will

:31:51.:31:53.

hopefully be taken to a referendum by both sides simultaneously. Before

:31:54.:31:59.

we talk about the referendum and when they may take place, there are

:32:00.:32:05.

30,000 troops come Turkish troops, patrolling the north. How open is

:32:06.:32:08.

the negotiating table from the Turkish Cypriot side to them being

:32:09.:32:12.

removed, being made part of the UN peacekeeping force? As you know, the

:32:13.:32:19.

UN peacekeeping force arrived in March 19 64. Turkish troops came in

:32:20.:32:29.

1974. Things have happened between the two dates. If any issue of

:32:30.:32:33.

troops is going to be discussed, I'm sure it will be discussed. What do

:32:34.:32:38.

you think the likely conclusion is? I cannot guess. No one can guess.

:32:39.:32:44.

I'm sure even people in Geneva cannot guess. It's a question of

:32:45.:32:52.

discussions. People may have expectations. But when you are doing

:32:53.:32:57.

negotiations, you are trying to reach something mutually agreeable.

:32:58.:33:02.

How likely do you think there will be success? There is a specific

:33:03.:33:06.

timetable. There is hope the referendum can take place by the end

:33:07.:33:11.

of April. Is that likely to happen? If things continue in Geneva, why

:33:12.:33:17.

not? It's all a question of intent. So we could see a reunified Cyprus

:33:18.:33:25.

by the end of this year? I hope so. If possible. Thank you very much for

:33:26.:33:28.

joining us. Thank you. Wayne McGregor has now been resident

:33:29.:33:29.

choreographer at the Royal Ballet in London for a decade -

:33:30.:33:33.

the first person in that role to come from a contemporary

:33:34.:33:36.

dance background. A high accolade, on top

:33:37.:33:37.

of his already impressive He has collaborated

:33:38.:33:40.

with high-profile musicians such as the White Stripes,

:33:41.:33:46.

Paloma Faith and He's also choreographed films

:33:47.:33:48.

including Fantastic Beasts, Our Special Correspondent,

:33:49.:33:51.

Katie Razzall, has been hearing According to him, there

:33:52.:33:55.

is a dancer in us all. What's amazing about dance is it's

:33:56.:34:09.

connected to everybody As likely to work with Radiohead

:34:10.:34:11.

as the Royal Ballet, at his best Wayne McGregor's

:34:12.:34:21.

choreography fuses dance, Not bad for a boy from

:34:22.:34:23.

Stockport who found early What was it about John Travolta that

:34:24.:34:38.

got you into this whole thing? I think it was just his

:34:39.:34:47.

passion for dancing. He just kind of came

:34:48.:34:49.

alive on the dance floor. And you see this physical

:34:50.:34:52.

kind of vitality. It's just amazing when you see

:34:53.:34:55.

somebody kind of live So I started ballroom

:34:56.:34:59.

dancing lessons, disco Some people like to dance

:35:00.:35:07.

when no one is looking. I think what's interesting

:35:08.:35:15.

is everybody has a personal So when I came in the room and met

:35:16.:35:18.

you today, I already have a sense of something about you,

:35:19.:35:26.

the way in which you greeted me, the way in which you had eye

:35:27.:35:28.

contact, the way in which your body How far or how distanced

:35:29.:35:32.

you started to communicate, In a way choreography or dance

:35:33.:35:35.

making is about that. It's about that

:35:36.:35:39.

transaction of energy. There's just something primal

:35:40.:35:42.

about ideas of physicality that A one-time research fellow

:35:43.:35:44.

at Cambridge University, McGregor's fascination with science

:35:45.:35:51.

and technology has seen him collaborate with neurologists

:35:52.:35:54.

to understand more about how mind And what that means for the creative

:35:55.:36:15.

process. It is partly just a fascination of what happens

:36:16.:36:16.

cognitively when you are moving. In the olden days we would have this

:36:17.:36:18.

idea that the brain and body This kind of sense that

:36:19.:36:21.

we're all just walking But actually we know, and we know

:36:22.:36:24.

this because of in-body technology, the way in which we are using

:36:25.:36:28.

technology now, that actually And I'm just interested to find

:36:29.:36:31.

out more about that. What does it mean to

:36:32.:36:34.

think about something? If I'm about to reach

:36:35.:36:36.

and touch your shoulder, already I've got a sense of how far

:36:37.:36:41.

I have to reach before I touch you, All those things happen intuitively

:36:42.:36:45.

in my brain before I do it. And that's a version

:36:46.:36:49.

of physical thinking. And what we're doing

:36:50.:36:51.

as dancers is doing a more A decade into his role

:36:52.:36:53.

as resident choreography at London's the Royal Ballet,

:36:54.:37:00.

McGregor is rehearsing a revival There you go, there

:37:01.:37:02.

you go, you do it. You already have a kinaesthetic

:37:03.:37:20.

response to that. That sense of sound shapes the

:37:21.:37:30.

dynamic. My job in a way is to recognise

:37:31.:37:33.

what that special signature is, what that feel is, and use it

:37:34.:37:36.

to develop something that says something about our ideas,

:37:37.:37:39.

that says something about you. What are you trying

:37:40.:37:41.

to say about the world? I think I'm trying to say

:37:42.:37:44.

that the world isn't complete. It's a partial view,

:37:45.:37:49.

it's fragmented. There are a lot of those

:37:50.:37:52.

old-fashioned traditional ballet They can keep thinking there are,

:37:53.:37:58.

but why would there be? And we don't want an art

:37:59.:38:02.

form that is dying. We want an art form that

:38:03.:38:06.

truly vibrant and alive, I mean, are there

:38:07.:38:08.

issues you care about? I think making art is

:38:09.:38:14.

political in itself. Education is political,

:38:15.:38:18.

empowering people to think creatively and challenge

:38:19.:38:20.

the system is political. This is one of the big challenges

:38:21.:38:25.

of the stem argument, this reduction of arts

:38:26.:38:28.

education in schools. It's really important

:38:29.:38:30.

first of all to get those One of the drivers to get

:38:31.:38:32.

them into school is very And then to see the crosstalk

:38:33.:38:36.

between maths and music, rhythm and mathematics,

:38:37.:38:40.

organisation and spatial organisation, really

:38:41.:38:44.

important terms of geometry. There are some important

:38:45.:38:46.

ways in which these In his quest for crosstalk, McGregor

:38:47.:38:49.

has collaborated with a whole host From Mark Wallinger

:38:50.:38:57.

and the White Stripes, to Mark Ronson, Paloma Faith

:38:58.:39:02.

and Radiohead's Thom Yorke. And he has an amazing ability to be

:39:03.:39:08.

really real and just be himself. That's why you get this

:39:09.:39:15.

amazing raw physicality. I guess when you're working

:39:16.:39:20.

with somebody like that, my job is to recognise it,

:39:21.:39:22.

find it, and just It's not to go, "Well,

:39:23.:39:24.

let's move like this." The technological process

:39:25.:39:29.

of that is very different. That pushes some of your

:39:30.:39:35.

buttons, doesn't it? And it was one shot,

:39:36.:39:37.

you probably noticed. So the camera shows four

:39:38.:39:41.

and a half minutes. And then that really,

:39:42.:39:43.

really long technological process. Please join me in welcoming

:39:44.:39:48.

the lovely ladies... As movement director

:39:49.:39:52.

on this Harry Potter, But there's a Wayne McGregor

:39:53.:40:00.

signature to Alexander Skarsgard's performance in The Legend of Tarzan,

:40:01.:40:05.

if you look carefully. And his latest endeavour

:40:06.:40:11.

was Fantastic Beasts. When you're working

:40:12.:40:17.

on something like the obscurus in Fantastic Beasts,

:40:18.:40:19.

how can you make some physical activity that then

:40:20.:40:21.

is motion-captured that But it's also about

:40:22.:40:23.

characterisation, finding small physical detail,

:40:24.:40:26.

and so there is a huge amount of choreographers working in film,

:40:27.:40:28.

or movement directors in film, What we do physically

:40:29.:40:31.

and constantly, we get into habits. We live our lives in

:40:32.:40:41.

a very habit-formed way. I think to remain curious

:40:42.:40:43.

and open to the world, you really have too actively change

:40:44.:40:50.

something about yourself, whether that's watching the kinds

:40:51.:40:52.

of films you never normally watch, whether that's going to a gig

:40:53.:40:56.

you never normally go to, whether that's watching dancing

:40:57.:40:59.

the way that you wouldn't, whether that's picking up poetry,

:41:00.:41:02.

it doesn't really matter. And I think that keeps you really

:41:03.:41:04.

engaged and alive, and all your And I think that's what we always

:41:05.:41:07.

want in life, to be highly attuned. And you can watch Katie Razzall's

:41:08.:41:16.

full interview with Wayne McGregor James O'Brien will be here tomorrow

:41:17.:41:19.

night. Goodbye. Good evening. A wintry night out

:41:20.:41:43.

there. Sleet and snow showers pushing south during the course of

:41:44.:41:46.

the night. First thing in

:41:47.:41:48.

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