13/01/2017 Newsnight


13/01/2017

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Tonight, Labour lose an MP once tipped to be a future party leader.

:00:00.:00:07.

Tristram Hunt will become the new head of the V Museum.

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He insists he's not trying to rock the boat.

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But it's no time to quit, say those on right of the party.

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We're in the Nexus tension all fight to save the Labour Party and return

:00:26.:00:30.

it to electability. -- existential fight.

:00:31.:00:32.

More data from the NHS shows four out of 10 hospitals in England

:00:33.:00:42.

declared a major alert in the first week of the year.

:00:43.:00:45.

We'll hear from some of those on the frontline this week.

:00:46.:00:47.

One of the things that worried me was it was taking up to two hours to

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arrive at the hospital to hand over their patients from the ambulance to

:00:56.:00:58.

the A floor. I hope it doesn't prove to be

:00:59.:01:01.

a disturbing influence. The president and the press -

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it used to sound so different. How will we know what to believe

:01:10.:01:12.

in a new era of presidential tweets It was not meant as an act

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of insurgency, Tristram Hunt warned today, explaining his resignation

:01:17.:01:29.

as a Labour MP shouldn't be interpreted as a desire

:01:30.:01:32.

to rock the boat. But whether or not it was

:01:33.:01:35.

intended, the boat today, The MP for Stoke Central

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stepped down to become head of the V Museum -

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an attractive proposal But Mr Hunt is a centrist,

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with Blairite blood coursing through his veins, at a time

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when they feel like an endangered His close friend, Lord Mandelson,

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suggested the MP was stepping down as the chance of Labour

:01:55.:02:00.

being elected to national His leader, Jeremy Corbyn, seemed

:02:01.:02:02.

quite unharmed by the departure. But the parliamentary seat in a part

:02:03.:02:08.

of the country where Labour has Ukip on its tail,

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now looks precarious. Is self-deselection

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now a career choice? Will Corbyn's critics

:02:15.:02:19.

in parliament choose to follow Mr Hunt out of politics,

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or stay and fight for a party The Labour MP for Stoke Central

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knows a lot about fragile things. The ceramics of his new home,

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the V, and perhaps, some would add, the Labour Party

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in its current state. He quit his seat today to become

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head of one of the country's most prestigious museums,

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a move that in many ways requires Indeed, it was greeted

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by his leader, Jeremy Corbyn, But he has taken this position

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as director of the V Good luck to him and we

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will have a by-election. And Corbyn may have quietly welcomed

:03:04.:03:07.

the departure of someone who had I'm glad we've finally got a proper

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socialist leader willing to confront fascism wherever he sees it,

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be it in Assad's Syria A leader happy to promote political

:03:17.:03:19.

discussion and not seeking to silence internal debate

:03:20.:03:29.

by putting MPs on hit lists. And thankfully, an end to the kind

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of irrational leadership cult that Yet his going will leave a big hole

:03:34.:03:39.

in the party at a time when many MPs Hunt's constituency

:03:40.:03:49.

of Stoke-on-Trent Central is due to be scrapped in the proposed

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boundary changes and as an opponent of Corbyn, some doubted his

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chances of reselection. In 2015, Labour won a narrow

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margin of little more than 5000 votes over Ukip,

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making Stoke-on-Trent Central fertile ground for Ukip's

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challenge in the north. This was compounded last year

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when Stoke-on-Trent was branded "Brexit capital of the UK",

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with nearly 70% of people voting One resignation clearly

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doesn't spell the end But this seat could be

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particularly problematic In a not too distant past,

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Labour was a fairly comfortable Indeed, Jeremy Corbyn's first

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Shadow Cabinet attempted But now there's a growing sense

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that it is a party firmly of the socialist left,

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with little room for In the last month, we have already

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seen one by-election triggered in Cumbria by the resignation

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of Jamie Reid. Meanwhile, if he wins election

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as Manchester mayor in May, Andy Burnham will be stepping down

:04:59.:05:01.

to try to carve out a fiefdom And there is concern Hunt's

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departure could trigger others. That argument, says one Blairite

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from the right of the party, He's obviously a talented politician

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and an effective parliamentarian and someone with politics

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on the moderate wing of the party. We are in an existential fight

:05:22.:05:26.

to save the Labour Party and return it to electability and we need

:05:27.:05:29.

fighters, not quitters But what if the Labour Party

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is being simply reshaped and re-grafted in a different mould

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of leadership, around a man elected head of his party, not once,

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but twice by popular vote? There will be splits

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and there will be cracks. But as any curator will tell you,

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you don't throw the vessel away We asked the Labour Party

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for an interview but no Joining me now are Ayesha Hazarika,

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who worked for Ed Miliband and Harriet Harman,

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and the journalist and I guess essentially this was an

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opportunity he just couldn't turn down, it is a perfect fit for it a

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historian who loves Museums? Absolutely. I genuinely don't think

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he was doing this to cause some kind of crisis. But it's more symptomatic

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of the fact that the overall party is, as one of your contributors

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said, in an existential crisis. We have heard Jamie Read standing down.

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Again, a good opportunity coming his way. But let's be honest, if these

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politicians thought Labour had a thrusting, vibrant future, I don't

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think they would be sending the signals to the outside world that

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they might be ready for an approach from another job. The deselection

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process was always the threat, that the people who did not fit in with

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Corbyn would find themselves deselected, and they have gone, they

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would rather jump than quit? I don't think so. There is a massive malaise

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in the PLP. There are a lot of people who didn't support Corbyn.

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There was the failed coup. They have decided rightly to just pipe down,

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not have a go at Corbyn the whole time. But the party does feel

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depressed. It feels more didn't. It doesn't feel like we are a party

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near parity. When I worked with Ed Miliband, he said, we want to be a

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one term opposition. Now it feels like it will possibly be a five term

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opposition. That is not a great message. And look, I don't want to

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see any more MPs stepping down. I'm disappointed that these guys have.

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They are very talented people but I don't blame them at the same time.

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It's difficult. Rachel, does this make it easier for Jeremy Corbyn,

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who is quietly seeing the filtering out of anybody who disagrees with

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him? Is that good or bad for a leader? First of all, I don't think

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it is great for the country to be facing another by-election at a time

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when were trying to figure out how to leave the EU, when there is an

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NHS crisis, when there is all kinds of things that this is going to leak

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media and political attention away from. It's not great for the

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country. But it is true, I think, that there are elements of the right

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in the Labour Party who are not fully embracing the sort of left

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populism that Corbyn is trying to present. There seems to be this

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idea... You think he has reached out to those on the right and they have

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failed to take up the challenge? Are not saying that. There seems to be a

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misconception that left populism means, we like Trump. It doesn't

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mean that. It means connect with people in a democratic, accountable

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way. Is the Labour Party connecting with people at the moment? Speak to

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people's concerns. Sometimes you will have a political and media

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establishment, part of it will be in your own party, you will be facing

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that. The way to get your message to the people is to ambush, to change

:09:44.:09:47.

the message, to change the frame, to find a way to speak directly. The

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party has run out of things to say, hasn't it? I agree. Jeremy Corbyn is

:09:57.:10:03.

not to blame for how the Labour Party became. He saw an opportunity

:10:04.:10:06.

in 2015 and he went for it. The moderate candidates did not have a

:10:07.:10:13.

satisfactory vision. Centrist, or however you want to terms. We did

:10:14.:10:18.

not have a particularly compelling vision last year. I accept that.

:10:19.:10:24.

Shouldn't they embrace the place where labour is in the moment, which

:10:25.:10:30.

is elected Jeremy Corbyn not once but twice? They have accepted the

:10:31.:10:34.

fact that Jeremy has won again. They are letting him get on with being

:10:35.:10:38.

the leader. We all want Jeremy to do well. We want him to be the Prime

:10:39.:10:42.

Minister. He may well be on to a lot of things that people are into in

:10:43.:10:48.

the public, inequality, Brexit. But we need him and his team to step up.

:10:49.:10:56.

It is not the PLP's full. Rachel, would you agree with that? We can

:10:57.:11:01.

have the leadership election conversation again. You are talking

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about competence. What I'm talking to you about is something much more

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fundamental. I don't know, it's most like the PLP doesn't have the ice to

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see it. We're talking about shaking things up in a way that is going to

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connect with people. That isn't about whether you think it's

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working. It's about whether people on the streets think it is working.

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The fact that the matter is when he tried to do that on Tuesday, when he

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tried to talk about pay caps under the massive inequalities... He

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didn't understand the message about immigration. We can talk about how

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it is lunatic. But the fact of the matter is we are talking about it.

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People were saying, that is a really good idea. This resonates. Rachel,

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there is no problem about the Labour Party talking about IP. But get your

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party sorted out. That might not be the way that works. There is a big

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test coming up. We have two by-elections. We want Corbyn to do

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well. He has now got to go out and talk to the public, listen to the

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public and connect with the public. It's not about slagging off the PLP.

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It's not about internal warfare. It's about getting the message out

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to the public. Do you think there is a clear message you can get out?

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When you listen to what Labour voters talk about, when you listen

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to what people who have been disenfranchised from Labour talk

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about, it's very much the issues that he's connecting with. Wealth

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inequality, reinvestment in public infrastructure, nationalisation of

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the railways and utilities, support for the welfare state and the NHS.

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Nobody is disagreeing with him. I thought I was going to get the last

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word! We have run out of time. We're getting onto the NHS now.

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All week we've been covering the crisis in the NHS.

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Today, more evidence to suggest the service is struggling -

:13:17.:13:18.

four out of ten hospitals in England declared a major alert

:13:19.:13:21.

in the first week of the year, as the health service came

:13:22.:13:24.

Bed shortages have intensified, A departments have been overwhelmed,

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more than one third of the NHS trusts raised the alarm.

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Let's talk to Chris Cook, our policy editor about what we learned.

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The really striking thing is there's nothing going on right now in the

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English NSS in particular. 66 trusts, a handful of them declared

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the highest level of national alert. They can't offer a safe and comments

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of care any more. That prompt -- follows on from the discovery that

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A rates are up, trolley rates are up. There is no indicator that is

:14:07.:14:11.

going the right direction. We are talking a lot about hospitals this

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week, because hospitals are the spine of the NHS system. But they

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actually reflect problems through the whole NHS and the social care

:14:22.:14:25.

system run by government. We have actually got some films which we are

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going to show, with testimony from doctors on the front line. We had

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Clare Gerada on earlier in the week. She is a GP who has told us horror

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week has gone. It's been a fairly typical week,

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which means it has been exhausting. You spend most of your time

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apologising to patients because they come to see you, because you can't

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get appointments in hospital. The other half of the week,

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I look after sick doctors and Doctors who are struggling,

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like I am, to give The NHS is actually

:15:09.:15:11.

making people sick. It's making those

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that work in it sick. And every day, I feel

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the pressure, and I feel guilty that the NHS that I've worked in now

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for nearly 40 years is not delivering the care that I think it

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should be delivering to the patients I wasn't supposed to come in

:15:35.:15:37.

but I was asked to come in because One of the things that worried me

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was it was taking up to two hours for ambulances that

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arrived at the hospital to hand over their patients from

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the ambulance to the A floor. In paediatrics, children

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deteriorate really quickly. So it is really important that

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when your sick child comes to the emergency department,

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they get seen quickly. Yet, children are stuck

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in ambulances, adults It can be a struggle to find

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a place for them to go. At one point there

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were no intensive care And it's not only patients

:16:27.:16:28.

that are suffering. Doctors are suffering.

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Nurses are suffering. All of the staff in a system

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pushed to its very limit. One of my colleagues ended up

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working 19 hours in a row because the night team

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were too sick to come in. It is really hard

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and not sustainable. So this week has been

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one of unprecedented pressure, I think for all of us

:16:49.:16:52.

working in the NHS. I think on Monday,

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I was scheduled to do an operating list that was for

:16:57.:17:00.

elective ENT surgery. We would normally hope to treat

:17:01.:17:06.

between eight and ten patients We were able to accommodate two

:17:07.:17:09.

elective patients because of the That meant there were six

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patients that we would routinely wish to have treated

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that we were not able to that day. It makes us feel intensely

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distressed and unhappy that we are not able to look

:17:23.:17:24.

after the patience to that we are not able to look

:17:25.:17:29.

after the patients to Having an operation is an incredibly

:17:30.:17:32.

stressful life event. For us to be delivering the care,

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it is perhaps the everyday but we are acutely aware

:17:39.:17:41.

that it is not every People on the front line thereby the

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we are treating. People on the front line thereby the

:17:45.:17:53.

politics are really weird. Very strange. More of this in the Times

:17:54.:17:57.

tomorrow. Downing Street and the Department of Health are keen to

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argue these problems are the result of inefficiencies within the health

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service itself. The health service itself, led by Simon Stevens in

:18:05.:18:07.

England, are trying to argue this is a problem primarily caused by local

:18:08.:18:11.

authority underfunding of social care, which is causing backlogs into

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hospitals and further problems. But it is important to understand this

:18:17.:18:19.

very odd argument between effectively the government and is

:18:20.:18:22.

big chunk of the state. So we have a few odd things. Firstly, we are

:18:23.:18:27.

seeing the emergence of Simon Stevens as a sort of figure in his

:18:28.:18:31.

own right, a civil servant with unprecedented authority, thanks to

:18:32.:18:38.

the Andrew Lansley reforms, he is effectively having operational

:18:39.:18:40.

independence from the government and its a bit like the emergence of the

:18:41.:18:43.

Chief inspector, Chris Woodhead, when we first created Ofsted in the

:18:44.:18:47.

90s. These strange civil servants with their own authority. What that

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kind of means is the government is finding itself arguing with someone

:18:53.:18:55.

it cannot really just back away. At the same time, there are two other

:18:56.:18:59.

boats going on in government. The first is, if we give more money to

:19:00.:19:03.

the NHS it will never learn that it has two contain its costs. The

:19:04.:19:07.

second is, Whitehall thinks in terms of who won and lost between

:19:08.:19:11.

departments. The health service has done better in relative terms than

:19:12.:19:14.

lots of other departments in recent years, so there is a sense in

:19:15.:19:17.

Downing Street that everyone else is coping so why can't you? Thank you

:19:18.:19:19.

for joining us. This time next week,

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the man we have watched with almost ceaseless wonder for the past 12

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months will be sworn in Donald Trump emerged triumphant

:19:24.:19:25.

from the November election with a conciliatory note,

:19:26.:19:30.

talking of the need to "bind Since then, the rhetoric has

:19:31.:19:32.

been slightly less warm. After Buzzfeed released and CNN

:19:33.:19:36.

reported an intelligence dossier about the President-elect,

:19:37.:19:39.

Trump used a press conference on Wednesday to hit back,

:19:40.:19:43.

rekindling the flames of his fight with the mainstream media,

:19:44.:19:46.

calling the stories they had He may find a lot of support

:19:47.:19:51.

for that particular battle. So will the relationship

:19:52.:19:55.

between president and press And it is well for us

:19:56.:19:57.

to remember that this America of ours is the product of no single

:19:58.:20:05.

creed or race or class. We who have faith cannot afford

:20:06.:20:12.

to fall out among ourselves. Motion picture cameras

:20:13.:20:24.

join newspaper reporters in the old State Department building

:20:25.:20:26.

for an historic presidential The first ever filmed in sound

:20:27.:20:29.

by newsreel cameramen. More than 200 correspondents crowd

:20:30.:20:33.

into the chamber as the president strides briskly in to face the press

:20:34.:20:37.

and the cameras. Well, I see we're trying

:20:38.:20:43.

a new experiment this morning. I hope it doesn't prove to be

:20:44.:20:46.

a disturbing influence. REPORTER: Sir, since

:20:47.:20:49.

you're attacking us, Go ahead.

:20:50.:20:51.

Go ahead. No, not you.

:20:52.:20:56.

Not you. Your organisation's terrible.

:20:57.:20:58.

Your organisation's terrible. Joining us now, Margaret Sullivan,

:20:59.:21:02.

a media columnist at the Washington Post,

:21:03.:21:06.

and Felix Salmon, a senior editor I don't want to get bogged down

:21:07.:21:08.

talking about the Buzzfeed document, Margaret? I don't think it was. I

:21:09.:21:33.

think that Buzzfeed went too far in publishing a 35 page document that

:21:34.:21:39.

is completely unverified. I mean, that is beyond the norms of good

:21:40.:21:45.

journalism. I think it was a mistake. Felix? They did exactly the

:21:46.:21:50.

right thing. This document is a primary document which CNN and many

:21:51.:21:55.

other people were writing about. The president was looking at it, the

:21:56.:21:58.

President-elect was looking at it, the media all had it and a lot of

:21:59.:22:04.

Congress. The idea it should be kept secret from the innocent public I

:22:05.:22:08.

think is ridiculous. This is an important document and Buzzfeed said

:22:09.:22:11.

it was unverified. There was no question they were reporting it as

:22:12.:22:17.

true. You used the phrase, Margaret, interesting, beyond the norm. I

:22:18.:22:22.

wonder if you think that Trump's exceptionalism, everything

:22:23.:22:25.

unconventional about him has frankly destabilised the press, that it has

:22:26.:22:29.

almost become a situation of style overwhelming substance now? That is

:22:30.:22:34.

what the press is reporting. There's no question that the norms in the

:22:35.:22:39.

direction of Trump toward the media have been destroyed but I don't

:22:40.:22:43.

think that means we should elude our own standards and integrity, which I

:22:44.:22:49.

think happened here. I understand Felix's well expressed point of view

:22:50.:22:55.

that the public ought to see what the elite media and politicians

:22:56.:23:00.

should see. But by releasing this whole thing out into the sort of,

:23:01.:23:08.

media ecosystem, many of this is essentially opposition research,

:23:09.:23:12.

undiluted, just sort of here. People will not be seeing that with the

:23:13.:23:16.

caveats and warnings that were on it but rather, just reading it per se.

:23:17.:23:22.

Felix, we saw what happened to CNN who chose to report the story, the

:23:23.:23:26.

Buzzfeed, who published the document. They were essentially

:23:27.:23:29.

ostracised in the room by Donald Trump in a very personal way. Do you

:23:30.:23:35.

think that news organisations will feel cowed by that? I hope not

:23:36.:23:42.

because the fact is, CNN and Buzzfeed and virtually all news

:23:43.:23:46.

organisations, including mine and Margaret's, can and have and will be

:23:47.:23:50.

attacked by Donald Trump. This is what he does whenever we write

:23:51.:23:54.

something he does not like. Whether it is true. Not really matter. He

:23:55.:23:58.

will attack us. Why do you think they did not walk out en masse, why

:23:59.:24:02.

wasn't there more solidarity with those reporters who had taken the

:24:03.:24:07.

stance? I don't think that walking out of the first press conference in

:24:08.:24:13.

six months from Donald Trump is a particularly useful response to the

:24:14.:24:16.

fact that he has an oppositional stance with the media. He's going to

:24:17.:24:22.

continue to oppose the media, the main about the media, so we are

:24:23.:24:25.

corrupt and lies. We will continue to report on what he does in as best

:24:26.:24:31.

away as we can and I think that making futile statements about

:24:32.:24:37.

walking out of press conferences would actually distract from the

:24:38.:24:39.

hard job of reporting on his ministration. -- but this is an

:24:40.:24:45.

important point, how do you hold some in to account who dismisses

:24:46.:24:50.

everything as fake news, who doesn't choose to take questions if he does

:24:51.:24:53.

not like the organisation very publicly, and whose supporters will

:24:54.:24:57.

back him when he says they are just lies and it is just scandal and you

:24:58.:25:00.

are just trying to bring down a popular man. Do you think there is

:25:01.:25:04.

any way to hold Donald Trump to account when it does not seem to

:25:05.:25:09.

make any difference? It doesn't seem to stick, you are right but I think

:25:10.:25:12.

we have to keep doing our jobs as best we can and actually finding

:25:13.:25:17.

better ways to dig in, to ask tough questions come to remind our readers

:25:18.:25:25.

or viewers, consumers, that what was said was in fact a full set, a

:25:26.:25:32.

light, if you will, -- a falsehood and eight lie. The fact checked and

:25:33.:25:37.

tell people the truth is what we are for. Doesn't that mean, to go back

:25:38.:25:40.

to the famous quote by Michelle Obama, when she said, "They go low

:25:41.:25:46.

and we have to go higher", when you see the press coming down to new

:25:47.:25:49.

lows, publishing stuff they have not verified, putting stuff out in the

:25:50.:25:53.

public which is not checked and they admit might be wrong, isn't that the

:25:54.:25:57.

new low? Isn't that joining the same level? I don't for a minute think

:25:58.:26:05.

that a single publication of an important primary document by

:26:06.:26:08.

Buzzfeed is a new low for the press. I think the new low for the press, I

:26:09.:26:11.

can point to a dozen articles from Breitbart and others which are much

:26:12.:26:16.

lower than that. I think Margaret... I think Michelle Obama is absolutely

:26:17.:26:20.

right, when he goes low, we go high and in the short term, he can

:26:21.:26:26.

respond to that just by blaster and saying, "It is fake news, the media

:26:27.:26:31.

is corrupt, liars". Over the course of four years, it is very hard to

:26:32.:26:34.

pull that off and I hope, I can do nothing but hope but over the medium

:26:35.:26:39.

-- that over the medium-term, eventually the truth will make

:26:40.:26:42.

itself manifest. The truth could be that all three of us and our

:26:43.:26:46.

organisations are all anachronisms, quite frankly. In terms of Donald

:26:47.:26:50.

Trump, he goes straight to the American people on Twitter. He can

:26:51.:26:54.

make companies, markets move with what he says. Basically, could we

:26:55.:26:58.

all be shut out of this conversation now because he can speak very

:26:59.:27:02.

directly to the people who elected him? You know, Emily, it is

:27:03.:27:06.

interesting to see the amount of support that news organisations like

:27:07.:27:10.

the New York Times and the Washington Post and many others have

:27:11.:27:13.

received in the wake of this election. Their subscriptions are

:27:14.:27:20.

soaring. Even news literacy organisations are getting this huge

:27:21.:27:23.

influx of money. I think there are many people in the United States,

:27:24.:27:28.

and let's remember that Donald Trump lost the popular vote, there are

:27:29.:27:31.

many people in the United States who do want the truth and who do want

:27:32.:27:34.

the press to play it's very important role in our democracy. So

:27:35.:27:41.

I am both hopeful and worried. And I guess the truth is, Felix, he's not

:27:42.:27:45.

the first president and he won't be the last two big fight with the

:27:46.:27:48.

press but it is slightly more public. Once more, I think you are

:27:49.:27:53.

possibly overstating the degree to which it can Distin to mediate the

:27:54.:27:59.

press just tweeting. -- he can avoid the mediation of the press. At the

:28:00.:28:04.

moment, whenever he tweets, the press treated as a sign it -- shiny

:28:05.:28:08.

object they need to chase and talk about for hours on end and I don't

:28:09.:28:12.

think that is sustainable either. Once the press starts talking,

:28:13.:28:16.

specifically cable TV news stops talking breathlessly about every

:28:17.:28:19.

single tweet, I think the influence of those tweets and the ability of

:28:20.:28:22.

Trump to communicate directly to the public will be diminished. I wonder

:28:23.:28:25.

when that will be! Thank you for joining us.

:28:26.:28:31.

A quick clarification before we go tonight.

:28:32.:28:32.

On Tuesday, we ran an item about the ethics of studios

:28:33.:28:35.

featuring dead actors in movies through the miracle of CGI.

:28:36.:28:38.

In it, we said Disney was negotiating with Carrie Fisher's

:28:39.:28:40.

estate about using her image in future Star Wars productions.

:28:41.:28:42.

Although there have been reports that Disney was considering using

:28:43.:28:46.

CGI to include Fisher in a future production, the studio says "Disney

:28:47.:28:49.

is not in conversations with the estate of Carrie Fisher

:28:50.:28:52.

at this time and any reports to the contrary are false."

:28:53.:28:58.

Apologies to any Carrie Fisher fans we excited - or upset.

:28:59.:29:02.

That's almost all for tonight, but before we go, we became aware

:29:03.:29:06.

of the danger of wearing too much white on television tonight.

:29:07.:29:08.

Forget the hazard of spaghetti bolognese, the perils

:29:09.:29:11.

of smeared chocolate - no, the real trauma it seems

:29:12.:29:14.

is from over-zealous colleagues - as the team on Australia's Channel 9

:29:15.:29:17.

I need Julie to put a jacket on because we are all in white.

:29:18.:29:34.

I asked her before we came on, "Julie, you need

:29:35.:29:37.

I made this clear two and a half hours ago.

:29:38.:29:44.

If it's an issue, I can get on out of here.

:29:45.:29:47.

It is an issue. Go and grab a jacket.

:29:48.:29:49.

I'm wearing blue, for one, Amber. I don't want to be having this.

:29:50.:29:52.

Someone... Jenny?

:29:53.:29:55.

Get someone, get a producer, I told her this two and a half...

:29:56.:29:58.

There's one hanging up outside the control room.

:29:59.:30:00.

Time now to head into the chat room and joining me today,

:30:01.:30:04.

psychologist Sandy Ray in Melbourne and Julie Snook in Sydney,

:30:05.:30:07.

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