27/01/2017 Newsnight

The world has had a week to get used to President Trump. From the

inauguration last Friday to today's press conference with Theresa May.

Everybody knew there would have to take him seriously. Is it now we

also took him literally? I think a lot of the voters who voted for

Trump take him seriously, but not literally. It is going to be only

America first. America first. People took him seriously, the press never

did. You know, the essence of what he was about was, I'm going to

change. Whether it was building a wall, which he really... You know,

I'm not so sure that is really going to happen. It will begin immediate

construction, a border wall. Supporters took him seriously, but

not literally. Does it work? Does torture work? The answer is, yes,

absolutely. Tonight, a specially extended

Newsnight exploring the first seven days of Donald

Trump's presidency and what they Just over 12 months ago,

the British Parliament debated banning Donald Trump from this

country in response to the perceived toxicity

of his electioneering rhetoric. Today, the British Prime Minister -

who, as Home Secretary described some of that rhetoric as "divisive,

unhelpful and wrong" - arrived in Washington

and invited him to come Indeed, at a joint press

conference a few hours ago, both were keen to portray

the beginning But she mentioned the so-called

special relationship eight times in a speech to Republican

politicians yesterday, while today Trump's White House

managed to misspell her name three So just how special is that

relationship and just how much of a political risk is Theresa May

taking by swallowing any personal distaste and hoping that a President

who delights in bellowing "America First" might somehow be

persuaded to put Britain second? Newsnight's David

Grossman was watching. How presidents and prime ministers

interact matters. A great deal of effort goes into making sure they

hit it off. Some relationships, however, barely register. Others

become central to both. Into which category this latest iteration will

fall, well, today we began to find out. Nothing was allowed to get in

the way, not even the oval office lamp. An executive order, and it was

gone. Back in the room, the bust of Churchill. This is the original.

After a private meeting in the Oval Office, a press conference, where

the complement is really flowed. Today, the United States renews our

deep bond with Britain, military, financial, cultural and political.

One of the great bonds. We pledge our lasting support to this most

special relationship. I am delighted to be able to congratulate you on

what was a stunning election victory. As you say, the invitation

is an indication of the strength and importance of the special

relationship. The relationship that exists between our countries, based

on the bonds of history, family, kinship and common interests. The

positivity was rather interrupted by the questions from reporters. Two

picked by the President, two by Theresa May. You have said before

that torture works, you have praised Russia, you have said you want to

ban some most -- Muslims from coming to America. You have suggested there

should be punishment for abortions. This was your choice for a question?

There goes this relationship! It is 205 years since the British set fire

to the White House. Theresa May had been advised to do something similar

today. Instead, her softer approach appears to have achieved results,

reassurance on the key military alliance. On defence and security

Corporation, we are united in the reclamation of Nato as the Bill

Walker of our defence, and we have confirmed our commitment to this

Alliance. You have confirmed you are 100% behind Nato. Mr Trump also said

it was too early to talk about dropping sanctions on Russia. On

torture, Mr Trump is on record as saying he thinks it works.

Crucially, he says his new Defence Secretary does not. I don't

necessarily agree, but I would tell you that he would override, because

I am giving him that power. He is an expert, he is highly respected, he

is the general's general. There was the inevitable question of personal

chemistry. The hard-working daughter of a vicar, the brush TV extrovert,

have you found anything in common? I am not as brash as you might think,

I think we are going to get along very well. It is interesting, I am a

people person, I think you are all so. I can often tell how I get along

with some of the very early, and I believe we will have a fantastic

relationship. The President's people judging powers let him down when he

tried to hold the Prime Minister's hand as he walked her to her car.

Aside from a little awkwardness, both sides would have been happy

with today. Our political editor,

Nick Watt was watching that He joins me now. Will they be having

a small glass of sherry in Theresa May's camp? They are ecstatic, this

visit was fraught with risks for Theresa May. Many Tories said she

was rushing over to Washington to soon after the inauguration. In

Number 10, they are pointing to two big games, in the first place, that

commitment, according to Theresa May, that Donald Trump is 100%

behind Nato. Only a few weeks ago he said Nato is obsolete in its current

form. Crucially, she said that Nato will have to meet concerns,

everybody has to pay their fair share and it has to be reconfigured

to tackle terrorism. The second big gain they are taking his big support

for a UK - US free trade agreement. Interestingly, those two were voiced

by Theresa May, and not by Donald Trump. Her tactics have done the job

in the short-term, but necessarily delivering in the long term? Theresa

May is essentially doing what every UK Prime Minister since Harold

Wilson and Jim Callaghan has done, get close to the US President. She

says she's doing it in her way and giving herself some wriggle room.

She believes Tony Blair perhaps appeared to write a blank check for

George Bush after 9/11. On Russia, she made it clear she disagrees with

Donald Trump and thinks that sanctions should remain in place. He

was noncommittal on that. Kelly and Conway was saying maybe the US would

be lifting sanctions. Think what she got on Nato. Essentially, Donald

Trump has given that commitment and she can say to EU partners and Nato

partners in Europe, who have doubts about the UK heading off to the US,

she is able to say she got a commitment that he is 100% behind

it. You may do well on the substance, but in the end it is

decided, often come on the optics, and what will be the abiding memory

of the visit? The handshake, the holding hands.

Dr Leslie Vinjamuri is an expert in the transatlantic partnership.

Professionally, this must be a fraught time for you. What is the

transatlantic partnership? It has been an interesting visit today. It

was a meeting that could have gone very badly. But I think it is

exactly right to say the optics, the symbolism of the visit have so far

seemed to be very important. The transatlantic relationship, what is

it? Historically, it has been a commitment by the US and the United

Kingdom to promote and secure the Liberal International order. This is

what everybody has been worried about that Donald Trump is walking

back, in very significant and dramatic ways, from the liberal into

-- international order. Theresa May seemed to be talking about

globalism, of holding the liberal international order, when Donald

Trump seemed to be running away from that at a rate of knots? Not only

was the press conference interesting, but last night, when

she spoke to the Republicans, she made a point of saying the United

States and the United Kingdom would work together to promote democracy.

They would not do it by intervening in the internal affairs of other

states. It was a global agenda, a liberal agenda. It was, in one

sense, in another sense, the American media seemed a lot keener

to ask questions about Mexico and Russia than they did about the other

half of the so-called special relationship? That is right. There

are all sorts of issues. The question now that we need to

remember is that Donald Trump was very respectful, but there is a

sense in which you always think that maybe he is humouring whoever he is

speaking to. The rubber hits the road in the days and weeks to come.

Will the special relationship really mean much to Donald Trump? Very hard

to know. In the great scheme of things, for all of his Scottish

ancestry and what have you, how high up on his to-do list will be giving

Britain something? You know, I do think that Donald Trump is committed

to a US- UK bilateral trade deal. What amounts to is minuscule

compared to what Theresa May needs to secure from European partners. At

the end of the day, Donald Trump as a set of priorities and very few of

them have a lot to do with the UK, right? So, we have to watch this

space. Thank you very much indeed. The Conservative MEP -

and arch-Brexiteer - You get described as that all the

time. This wasn't really in the script, all of these wonderful new

freedoms, the liberation that follows from shrugging off the

shackles of Brussels, the first thing the Prime Minister does is

break bread with a self-proclaimed protectionist? Well, with a view to

getting a trade deal between the largest and fifth-largest economy is

on the planet, which will be of huge benefit to both. 1 million Brits

turn up to work for American companies every day, we are the

single biggest investor there, they are the single biggest investor

here. The only thing that has not followed up has been the trade,

because it has been controlled by Brussels instead of us. That can now

change. As far as I can see, there are almost no losers, and a lot of

winners, including European allies. Glass three quarters full for you?

Are you worried about some of the less savoury elements of the

election campaign, seeing the British Prime Minister essentially,

post-Brexit, having to go there and make friendly noises? I was not a

Trump supporter. Are you now? Seems to me that the only proper attitude

for a friend of America and a friend of American democracy is to say you

have made your decision and this remains a powerful alliance. Whoever

is in the White House? As long as America remains committed to the

values of the West, this is our one key alliance. It has since 1941. You

mentioned 1941, it seems, and we haven't got the detail of the

executive order, it looks like it might have signed a ban on refugees

on Holocaust Remembrance Day. How does that play with Western values?

There were all sorts of aspects of his platform... Just focus on that

one? As I say, I would not have voted for him. But Theresa May's job

is not to go and lecture him and what her finger, her job is to get

the best deal for us, and, by implication, the best deal for the

broader community of Western countries. I think she did that

today. She came out with a commitment on Nato, which would have

delighted the Europeans. She slightly softened his position on

the issue of sanctions on Russia. She has not just gone and played a

subordinate role at all, it is clear there is give and take. She has

established her own vision of what the special relationship can be and

she has made relationships, by the way, not just with him. The US is a

system with a divided government. An awful lot, in a very short press

conference! That she has also been meeting, you know, the other leaders

in Congress. This will be a key relationship, bigger than any two

leaders. Do you buy this conflation that is so broad now of Brexit, with

Trump, that without Brexit there would be no tramp? Given your

established rejection of much of what he said and stood for in the

election campaign, do you feel, as the arch Brexiteer, a degree of

responsible to? I think the parallel has been greatly overdone. A big

part of Donald Trump's appeal, as I understand it, was that he did not

want free trade with China. A big part of Vote Leave's agenda was that

we do. Brexit has a globalist and internationalist flavour that I

don't think was there. The one thing that they have in common, I will

concede this, was anger against what was perceived to be a failed

governing class. I think it would be a mistake to see Brexit as being

nativist or protectionist, it is much more about re-engagement with

the wider world. Do you think they should have been a bit of finger

wagging, that said? I have no idea what happened behind closed doors. I

can only infer from what was said in front of those doors afterwards. The

issues that people have concerns about, Nato, Russia sanctions and so

on, he seems to have slightly softened his position on. I accept

you are not as enthusiastic about drawing the two together some other

Brexiteers, do you think the world is a safer place now Donald Trump is

in the White House? He was not my preferred candidate. I think the

world is a safer place when English-speaking democracies were

together for the rule of law. English-speaking democracies? The

alliance between the United Kingdom and the United States has been a far

greater guarantor of human happiness than anybody likes to admit for the

last 100 years. Imagine a world without it. We think of these

universal values of free speech, equality for women, democracy, there

would have been nothing universal about them if the Second World War

ended differently, or the Cold War ended differently. We should

remember the value of that alliance and what it has done, not just for

us, but the other countries. But the alliance that was already extant? I

just wanted to direct your view towards continental Europe. The

candidate for the French presidency said that Britain lives in

equilibrium with Europe, but now it is becoming the junior partner of

the United States? On from being a big player... The absurdity of that

is that the European Union is that political integration. It is about

turning countries into something bigger, a political union. No

country in the world is more jealous of its sovereignty than the United

States. The idea that this could be anything other than an alliance of

democracies, and I have one that goes wider, bringing in other

friendly countries, that we would be drawn into a political union...

English-speaking, or would we allow others? All friendly countries.

There are so much virtue signalling, including from some British

politicians, who are indulging themselves by signalling their

distaste for this or that aspect of Donald Trump's domestic policy. They

might just feel displaced. But if they were Prime Minister and not

engaging with the will's largest economy, and our most important

military ally, it would be a serious dereliction of duty.

It would seem that the spokespeople and cheerleaders who spent much

of last year insisting that Trump should be taken seriously but not

literally, or that we should stop listening to his actual words

and focus instead on what was in his heart are going to need

Within days of assuming office Trump has signed executive orders

addressing inter alia, pre-election pledges about banning

all refugees from some Muslim countries and building that wall

Newsnight's diplomatic editor Mark Urban has been considering just

how significant those signatures will prove to be.

The speech followed by a dispute over how many had attended heralded

something loud and clear. From early morning tweets to abuse, President

Trump is no different from campaign trail Trump. The idea of repealing

Obamacare, the affordable care act, has been counted many times on the

trail. And it is somewhere where the president and Republican lawmakers

can agree in principle. But signing off on his first executive order,

Trump could not scrap Obamacare in one stroke. That would lead the Mac

relieved 20 million Americans uncovered. Republicans have thought

about the alternative for some time but they have not necessarily agreed

on what the policy is so I think there would have to be some

agreement around policy and then the timing and sequencing has to come

into play. I have thought this would be a several month process. In some

areas, for example on resuming water boarding, the news has not been

quite what it seems. When Isis is doing things people have not heard

of since medieval times, would I feel strongly about water boarding?

As far as I am concerned, we have to fight while with fire. In an ABC

interview President Trump said it is clear torture works. But it is clear

he the CIA director opposes it. I think he's communicating what voters

feel and what he feels himself. At the same time that is different from

the US government establishing a policy. We had the opposite from the

Defence Secretary, Jim Mattis saying he has more success with a can of

beer and a pack of cigarettes than anyone would using enhanced

interrogation. That is uncertain, what about the Mexican wall? It is a

key campaign promise but paying for it is proving entirely contentious.

First the American president cancelled a planned visit, then

President Trump talked about using a 20% import tariffs but legislation

looks inevitable. It cannot be done simply by executive order. The issue

now is can he rule by executive order and I think there are real and

straights on that. The first constraint is obviously Congress

itself which can actually legislate to stop him using executive orders

if it wants, but anything Donald Trump sits in his office and signs,

Congress will have the power to either fund or not fund. And then

there is the government machine. Draft executive orders have already

leaked, White House staff have badmouthed each other and civil

servants have been tweeting subversively. I'm sure that in the

federal workforce there are a lot of people who are very unhappy about

Trump's collection, and will provide some kind of passive resistance to

his leadership or active resistance. I re-hope people don't do that and

get over it. It is everyone's DTE to try and make the administration that

you're working for as successful as possible for the good of the

country. For the moment, just one weekend, Trump still has plenty of

political momentum, but with so many executive orders, uncertainty over

how they will work, and fewer appointees in place, the

complications have already started to multiply.

In a moment we'll be talking to the foreign affairs expert,

But first joining me now from Florida is the veteran

republican political strategist Roger Stone, who is a long term

Mr Stone, everyone was waiting for a pivot, they were waiting for the old

phrase we campaign in poetry and govern in prose, but there isn't

going to be one, is there? No, nor is there going to be any honeymoon.

Donald Trump is exactly who he appears to be. He is his own man.

He's not going to fit into some structure designed by others, and I

believe that as long as he continues to implement his agenda, and make

progress on the big issues, these small kerfuffle over his Twitter

feed and the of the press and his correct in my view criticism of the

media will not matter. What matters to the American people are results.

Let me pick you up on that first point about him being his own man

who is not going to try and fit into anybody else's worldview, how does

that square with what he said about torture and fitting into James

Mattis's worldview? I could not understand your question. You said

he will be his own man and not be moulded by anyone else's views but

the first thing he said in a press Conference today is he has allowed

James Mattis to remould the attitude on torture. He will follow the lead

of his Defence Secretary. First of all he has to do what is both legal

and constitutional, regardless of what his personal views are. I

understand his disgust at the tactics of Isis and I think he is

trying to signal that he will do everything he can to crush Isis. At

the same time, he like every other president has to follow the law.

General Mattis is a good man, he knows what he is doing. I think he

is wise to follow his lead. Will they be torture under a Trump

Administration, knowing what you know of Donald Trump? I think he

will push the limits legally and constitutionally. He wants to get

tough on Isis as he can but at the end of the day he still has to abide

by the law. You are a veteran of the dark arts of politicking, you seem

to revel in the rascal -ish nature of the profession, so when you put

it out that Ted Cruz' father was involved in the assassination of

John F. Kennedy, one imagines you doing it with a wry smile and a

thumbs up to the gallery. Donald Trump has a different view. When he

spoke about being in Scotland the day before Brexit, the calendar in

his own Twitter reveals he did not go there until the day after. Does

he believe all of this himself even though the evidence contradicts him?

I think there is some poetic licence there, but I am committed to the

truth. And the issue about the Russians and the elections which is

unproven... That is why I have not asked you about that. When he says

he was in Scotland the day before the result came in and he predicted

it all and his own Twitter account reveals he landed in Scotland the

day after, does he believe it when he says it? Perhaps he was mistaken.

Do you think any voter really cares? Identifying daycare. -- identity

they care. When he says it was not raining during the inauguration but

people could feel the raindrops landing on their head, it does he

put himself in a position where he has persuaded himself that what he

wants to be true is true? Well, having gone to the inauguration,

having taken the occasion to find and where a morning suit, something

I have wanted to do my entire life, I have to tell you it did not rain.

There was a nanosecond when there was a sprinkling of raindrops, it

was over in less than two minutes. I know because my wife did not want to

get drenched, so I think on this occasion he was right. But not on

the dates for arriving in Scotland. Congratulations on the morning suit.

I am joined now by Anne Applebaum from the Washington Post. IU as

upbeat about Donald Trump? Funnily enough I thought Mr Trump sounded

less upbeat than I thought he was. I am holding fire. I will wait to see

what happens. What would be good news, what would reassure you? What

would reassure me, unfortunately, would be if Trump had announced he

had thought it through, he had listened to his cabinet, he had

spoken to experts, he had talked to people in the State Department, he

had talked people in other departments and he had decided that

the Liberal International order and the rule of law, and the rules based

order that Theresa May spoke about, that these are things worth

preserving and he has decided to preserve them. That would reassure

me. And at that point his core support goes nuts? I am not sure

because I am not sure what his core supporters were voting for him for?

The wall and the ban on Muslims. It was not clear how much it matters.

They clearly that is to some people but everybody, I am not sure. Is

there a danger now that everybody is hearing what they want to hear and

in fact he does move around quite a lot and possibly even today we may

have seen evidence that his opinion can be in some way changed by the

last person who made an impression on him. Theresa May very keen to

come out and talk about Nato and Russian sanctions, if he is in a

room with someone more hawkish tomorrow or more protectionist, he

may switch again? As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the

contrary, "no". One of the techniques he used to win the

election, you can look at the way they used Facebook and his team used

the Internet, they would put at dozens of different messages. People

heard what they wanted to hear and they screamed out what they didn't

want to hear. You and I are not used to it. We are confused by it and we

find it contradictory. It was an election and it did help him get

elected. The question is, can it help him rule? The statements he

made about the wall and making Mexico pay for the wall, what has

happened, he has destroyed relationships with one of America's

most important allies and trading partnerships, the peso has crashed,

people believe the border may come back, Nafta may be regulated which

means hundreds and hundreds of businesses will be in trouble. They

all heard some messages that he was sending to some people and those

have now had a defect in real life. Now that he is president, that meant

that instead of strewing messages out there and letting them sink into

where they might, that will have effects in the real world. Do you

believe Theresa May had much choice in trying to get to the front of the

queue? Her visit to Washington was a real indication of how much more

restricted Britain's choices are and how much less sovereignty Britain

has been used to. Britain has no choice. She politically needs

somewhere she can go when Britain leads the EU. She needs someone she

can point to as a partner. I had worried that one of her partners

might be Russia or China or Turkey... She is in Turkey next! She

would need somebody out of the periphery. She might go to the anti

democratic world. And Trump as a blessing from the sky has given her

this opportunity. But almost everything she said in her speech

yesterday, and everything she said about global Britain in the last few

days, contradicts directly what Trump has said. But they held hands.

Anne Applebaum thank you. We have, inevitably,

been viewing the nascent Trump Presidency and the new world

order many believe it will presage Let's have a little look

now at how it appears What I see is America becoming more

protectionist, becoming more nationalist, that they are

withdrawing from global trade and global agreements, and, at the same

time, China taking up that position. The President was at Davos to give a

speech, stating China's desire to take a leadership on global trade,

which will be for the prosperity and peace of the world, and also taking

the lead on climate change. If it is business deals,

renegotiating trade deals, cancelling them, amending them, that

is one thing. If it's going to be a projection of military power, again,

that is going to be very dangerous. But, of course, from Mr Trump's

first utterances, it appears he realises those dangers. The European

partners are very much in doubt whether the United States will

continue to be a trustful ally in Nato. Then, fundamentally, I think

it is important to emphasise that in his inauguration speech, he hasn't

emphasised the value of human rights, democracy, of liberal order,

which is really another fundamental the global order, as we have built

that, together with the United States. His brief comments on

torture just prove that he is ready to really question fundamental

principles. The historian Simon Schama is here,

alongside Ted Malloch, who is widely tipped for a role

in the Trump administration - possibly as Ambassador

to the European Union. You don't have any news for us?

Maybe next week. Simon, you have taken to social media and coined the

Rhine Theresa the appeaser. Anything to appease your fears today? Not

particularly. The spectacle of them holding hands, actually, doesn't in

any rational way speak to your question, it did turn my stomach

somewhat. We don't know that it didn't turn hers. The fear that she

is cosying up to a regime that may prove to be, as an historian, may

stand comparison with other 20th-century horrors, are you

stepping back? I think scary authoritarian regimes, not to

inaccurately paraphrase, are scary and authoritarian each in their own

way. I think this is starting to look incredibly scary and

authoritarian. Particularly, actually, banning the possibility of

the Environmental Protection Agency delivering data to the public. All

sorts of things, I think, are serious. But the most worrying part

of all, which does not speak to the authoritarian issue, but something

more loopy, is his lack of contact with reality. Today, he doubled down

on the extraordinary assertion that between three million and 5 million

illegal immigrant votes were cast. It is absolutely, this was actually

delivered to a reception in which, the first reception he had with

congressional leaders, there were treated to being harangued on this

fantastic story, with no evidence whatsoever. He is starting an

investigation into an election he won! This is beyond absurd. There

are three objectives there that I will pick up on, absurd, scary and

authoritarian. Do you recognise what he describes? Nonobvious above.

Where would you like me to start? -- none of the above. The voter fraud

allegations, the Democrats swung 3 million illegal votes, but not put

them anywhere that would win an election? Well, let's have an

investigation, if somebody has evidence... The evidence comes from

Greg Phillips! You have the investigation and come to the

conclusions afterwards. We have an investigation into Russian hacking

and find out the truth. Hopefully we have imperial evidence, rather than

dismissing them out of hand. Why not look at them? Even on the liberal

left, we are willing to look at actual facts. Empirical evidence,

obviously... A social scientist. So climate change is on the table?

People have different points of view. We are talking about empirical

data? 10% of hard scientists have some questions. Let me draw the

conversation out, if I may, and look at whether or not you feel, as

somebody that clearly Donald Trump holds in high regard, that we are at

a pivotal point in Western history? I think we are at a turn in Western

history. Obviously we have had a change from one regime to another

regime, so you have that. But you also have a more national orientated

and more populist orientated political caste. Not just in the

United States, in many countries around the world. Maybe a new order

is beginning to appear. Nationalist, populist, they are not new ideas?

Well, in this form, this time, yes. Frankly, are there any new ideas

since Plato? We could have that debate. Nationalism and populism

rarely lead to harmony. Lead to harmony? Well, there are different

kinds of nationalism, different kinds of populism. America first,

let's take that slogan. Do you know who used the term first? Well,

Wilson? But it was reprehensible when he used it. Maybe when

Lindbergh used it it was more reprehensible. Lindbergh was an

appeaser. He was soft on the Nazis. It is an irony that Trump has moved

Churchill back into his office, who detested everything about the slogan

and what America first stood for. But he needed America to help save

Britain at a certain point in time. Trump is not intellectually

connected with that wonderful litany of intellectual history. He is

interested in literally putting America first, re-establishing

America's place in the world, America's economy. That is the thing

to underscore. He got elected on a platform that said the middle class

has suffered for at least 15 years. Not just the last eight years, but

it has suffered and it needs to come back. Why is he proposing a tax cut

that will benefit, hugely and disproportionally, the top 1%? You

know about supply-side economics, it has worked before. It hasn't. At

work for John Kennedy, it worked for Ronald Reagan and it could work this

time. In four years we could have a balanced budget. We had a balanced

budget under Bill Clinton. Newt Gingrich was the head of Congress

and they did it together. I'm interested in the distinction

between literally and seriously. It has been a recurring theme. You

taken seriously, but not literally. You have always taken him literally?

I think you could taking either way and people obviously have. He's

President now, he is not campaigning. That is true. There

should be some difference, you know. Have you seen any yet? In five days,

I think we are beginning to... I think we saw some of it today, in

the meeting under the summit with Theresa May. Thank you both. Are you

seeing any cause for cautious optimism, or a delusion of

pessimism? No. Thank you very much indeed. Let's look at the papers. No

surprise for guessing what is on the front pages. I will keep you in

suspense. There is a prize for guessing.

It was 1974, on a struggling local American TV channel.

A little known reporter shot herself on live television,

apparently claiming it was a protest against the drive for blood

As with every suicide, the answers to why she did it

are likely more complex and Christine Chubbock had

struggled with longstanding mental health issues.

A new film, Christine, is out today - and charts the days

leading up to that awful moment, captured on live TV.

Katie Razzall went to meet its leading actor, Rebecca Hall.

Broadcast in real-time, live TV is almost old hat

But as a way of recounting world events as they happen,

it can be dramatic, compelling and uncontrollable.

I'm a reporter at WZRB and I'm always on the lookout...

In 1974 in Sarasota, Florida, the worst did, when a local

television reporter who suffered long-term mental health issues shot

herself live on-air, claiming it was a protest

at being asked to sensationalise the journalism she held dear.

She is, in some small sense, famous on the internet,

as being one of the sort of top ten most shocking things that ever

Because she took her life on live TV.

She said, "In keeping with the network's desire for blood

and guts television, here's a first -

It's an act of terrorism, almost, in that sense.

She is making it political, and she is making a comment

on the thing that she very much didn't want to do.

She was someone who was under constant pressure from the higher

ups, in this small network, to create juicy reporting

It's believed only a few hundred people watched

Christine Chubbuck's death live on TV.

The nature of the internet means these days suicides live on Facebook

have been watched by people around the world.

I think if it happened now, I think it would be inescapable.

And that is actually rather disturbing to think about.

I suppose it's true that now people do kill themselves on Facebook Live

and they have difficulties getting the material off, their relatives.

And one shouldn't have access to that footage,

In the film, she says, "can you record this?"

I understand there's a tape, and I also understand

that the family went to court and got it from the station

There's a lot of rumour and speculation about it.

I don't really want to get into that.

I don't think anyone should see that and we should respect the family's

Otherwise it is grisly and sensationalistic

There's a reason this idea is catching fire

They didn't show that, they cut out just before.

They didn't have the guts to show the whole thing.

They could have doubled their ratings.

The equivalent now would be clickbait.

What's the most shocking way you can describe a story so that

someone will click on it and read the article?

Because you get more ratings, or whatever term

I pledge to you tonight, from this office, that I will do

everything in my power to ensure that the guilty are

It's like, the 1970s were, in many respects,

But also, you've got, for the first time, there is extreme

violence in people's homes, on television, because

And it really is, I think there are so many things

that are conflating, and Christine's story sort of

The fact that she asked for her show to be video taped that day indicates

Clearly, is a timely story because not just Hall's Christine,

but another film about Chubbuck debuted at last year's

No, no, not the tape of the suicide, but anything at all...

I always think the thing about any piece of drama that's set in another

time is it says something about the time in which it's set,

but it arguably say something even more significant about the time

And, you know, when I think of 1974 in America, and I have read a lot

around this in preparation for this film, there's a real sense of...

Paranoia and uncertainty about where the world's going.

You're coming out of the 60s with a sense of, you know,

the stakes are life-and-death, where are we going, what's happening

I don't think that audiences right now are going to have a hard time

As you know, I have a running war with the media.

They are among the most dishonest human beings on earth.

We need to be vigilant, and the way that we do

that is through the press, and for it to be proper journalism

that delivers us the information that we need in order

I thought she was meant to get some fresh flowers?

Yeah, I told her to, it must have slipped her mind.

Well, I can't think about anything else, sorry,

For better or worse, Christine was a harbinger for a lot

of things that we still, as a society, have a rough

Ultimately, it's quite easy to humanise characters

Even characters who have awful things happen to them,

and are victims of things, but remain essentially good.

It's crucial for artists to humanise people that we'd

rather look away from, or would rather just

You know, put that person in a box and just label it monster,

crazy or whatever, and let's just not think about it.

Katie Razzall there with Rebecca Hall, the star of the new film

Christine which opens at the weekend. There is an outbreak of

unanimity on the picture desk. This will soon be the iconic image of

Donald Trump. It is hard to see who is helping hood down the stairs but

Donald Trump holding hands with Prime Minister Theresa May. The

Daily Mail has gone for the open goal. -- Daily Mirror.

They have some insect photographs showing even more physical warmth

between the two. And then the Guardian has a more sombre headline

but the photograph remains the same. All three papers referring to the

Nato pledge which Theresa May revealed she had prised from the

president. And that is all that we have time for. Good night.