27/01/2017 Newsnight


27/01/2017

A special edition looking back at President Trump's first week, as Theresa May visits the White House. Plus an interview with actress Rebecca Hall.


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Transcript


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The world has had a week to get used to President Trump. From the

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inauguration last Friday to today's press conference with Theresa May.

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Everybody knew there would have to take him seriously. Is it now we

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also took him literally? I think a lot of the voters who voted for

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Trump take him seriously, but not literally. It is going to be only

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America first. America first. People took him seriously, the press never

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did. You know, the essence of what he was about was, I'm going to

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change. Whether it was building a wall, which he really... You know,

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I'm not so sure that is really going to happen. It will begin immediate

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construction, a border wall. Supporters took him seriously, but

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not literally. Does it work? Does torture work? The answer is, yes,

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absolutely. Tonight, a specially extended

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Newsnight exploring the first seven days of Donald

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Trump's presidency and what they Just over 12 months ago,

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the British Parliament debated banning Donald Trump from this

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country in response to the perceived toxicity

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of his electioneering rhetoric. Today, the British Prime Minister -

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who, as Home Secretary described some of that rhetoric as "divisive,

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unhelpful and wrong" - arrived in Washington

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and invited him to come Indeed, at a joint press

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conference a few hours ago, both were keen to portray

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the beginning But she mentioned the so-called

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special relationship eight times in a speech to Republican

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politicians yesterday, while today Trump's White House

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managed to misspell her name three So just how special is that

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relationship and just how much of a political risk is Theresa May

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taking by swallowing any personal distaste and hoping that a President

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who delights in bellowing "America First" might somehow be

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persuaded to put Britain second? Newsnight's David

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Grossman was watching. How presidents and prime ministers

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interact matters. A great deal of effort goes into making sure they

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hit it off. Some relationships, however, barely register. Others

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become central to both. Into which category this latest iteration will

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fall, well, today we began to find out. Nothing was allowed to get in

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the way, not even the oval office lamp. An executive order, and it was

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gone. Back in the room, the bust of Churchill. This is the original.

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After a private meeting in the Oval Office, a press conference, where

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the complement is really flowed. Today, the United States renews our

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deep bond with Britain, military, financial, cultural and political.

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One of the great bonds. We pledge our lasting support to this most

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special relationship. I am delighted to be able to congratulate you on

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what was a stunning election victory. As you say, the invitation

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is an indication of the strength and importance of the special

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relationship. The relationship that exists between our countries, based

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on the bonds of history, family, kinship and common interests. The

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positivity was rather interrupted by the questions from reporters. Two

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picked by the President, two by Theresa May. You have said before

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that torture works, you have praised Russia, you have said you want to

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ban some most -- Muslims from coming to America. You have suggested there

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should be punishment for abortions. This was your choice for a question?

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There goes this relationship! It is 205 years since the British set fire

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to the White House. Theresa May had been advised to do something similar

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today. Instead, her softer approach appears to have achieved results,

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reassurance on the key military alliance. On defence and security

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Corporation, we are united in the reclamation of Nato as the Bill

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Walker of our defence, and we have confirmed our commitment to this

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Alliance. You have confirmed you are 100% behind Nato. Mr Trump also said

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it was too early to talk about dropping sanctions on Russia. On

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torture, Mr Trump is on record as saying he thinks it works.

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Crucially, he says his new Defence Secretary does not. I don't

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necessarily agree, but I would tell you that he would override, because

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I am giving him that power. He is an expert, he is highly respected, he

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is the general's general. There was the inevitable question of personal

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chemistry. The hard-working daughter of a vicar, the brush TV extrovert,

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have you found anything in common? I am not as brash as you might think,

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I think we are going to get along very well. It is interesting, I am a

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people person, I think you are all so. I can often tell how I get along

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with some of the very early, and I believe we will have a fantastic

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relationship. The President's people judging powers let him down when he

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tried to hold the Prime Minister's hand as he walked her to her car.

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Aside from a little awkwardness, both sides would have been happy

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with today. Our political editor,

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Nick Watt was watching that He joins me now. Will they be having

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a small glass of sherry in Theresa May's camp? They are ecstatic, this

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visit was fraught with risks for Theresa May. Many Tories said she

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was rushing over to Washington to soon after the inauguration. In

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Number 10, they are pointing to two big games, in the first place, that

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commitment, according to Theresa May, that Donald Trump is 100%

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behind Nato. Only a few weeks ago he said Nato is obsolete in its current

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form. Crucially, she said that Nato will have to meet concerns,

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everybody has to pay their fair share and it has to be reconfigured

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to tackle terrorism. The second big gain they are taking his big support

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for a UK - US free trade agreement. Interestingly, those two were voiced

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by Theresa May, and not by Donald Trump. Her tactics have done the job

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in the short-term, but necessarily delivering in the long term? Theresa

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May is essentially doing what every UK Prime Minister since Harold

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Wilson and Jim Callaghan has done, get close to the US President. She

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says she's doing it in her way and giving herself some wriggle room.

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She believes Tony Blair perhaps appeared to write a blank check for

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George Bush after 9/11. On Russia, she made it clear she disagrees with

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Donald Trump and thinks that sanctions should remain in place. He

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was noncommittal on that. Kelly and Conway was saying maybe the US would

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be lifting sanctions. Think what she got on Nato. Essentially, Donald

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Trump has given that commitment and she can say to EU partners and Nato

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partners in Europe, who have doubts about the UK heading off to the US,

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she is able to say she got a commitment that he is 100% behind

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it. You may do well on the substance, but in the end it is

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decided, often come on the optics, and what will be the abiding memory

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of the visit? The handshake, the holding hands.

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Dr Leslie Vinjamuri is an expert in the transatlantic partnership.

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Professionally, this must be a fraught time for you. What is the

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transatlantic partnership? It has been an interesting visit today. It

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was a meeting that could have gone very badly. But I think it is

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exactly right to say the optics, the symbolism of the visit have so far

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seemed to be very important. The transatlantic relationship, what is

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it? Historically, it has been a commitment by the US and the United

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Kingdom to promote and secure the Liberal International order. This is

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what everybody has been worried about that Donald Trump is walking

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back, in very significant and dramatic ways, from the liberal into

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-- international order. Theresa May seemed to be talking about

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globalism, of holding the liberal international order, when Donald

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Trump seemed to be running away from that at a rate of knots? Not only

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was the press conference interesting, but last night, when

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she spoke to the Republicans, she made a point of saying the United

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States and the United Kingdom would work together to promote democracy.

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They would not do it by intervening in the internal affairs of other

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states. It was a global agenda, a liberal agenda. It was, in one

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sense, in another sense, the American media seemed a lot keener

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to ask questions about Mexico and Russia than they did about the other

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half of the so-called special relationship? That is right. There

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are all sorts of issues. The question now that we need to

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remember is that Donald Trump was very respectful, but there is a

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sense in which you always think that maybe he is humouring whoever he is

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speaking to. The rubber hits the road in the days and weeks to come.

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Will the special relationship really mean much to Donald Trump? Very hard

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to know. In the great scheme of things, for all of his Scottish

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ancestry and what have you, how high up on his to-do list will be giving

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Britain something? You know, I do think that Donald Trump is committed

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to a US- UK bilateral trade deal. What amounts to is minuscule

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compared to what Theresa May needs to secure from European partners. At

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the end of the day, Donald Trump as a set of priorities and very few of

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them have a lot to do with the UK, right? So, we have to watch this

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space. Thank you very much indeed. The Conservative MEP -

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and arch-Brexiteer - You get described as that all the

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time. This wasn't really in the script, all of these wonderful new

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freedoms, the liberation that follows from shrugging off the

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shackles of Brussels, the first thing the Prime Minister does is

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break bread with a self-proclaimed protectionist? Well, with a view to

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getting a trade deal between the largest and fifth-largest economy is

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on the planet, which will be of huge benefit to both. 1 million Brits

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turn up to work for American companies every day, we are the

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single biggest investor there, they are the single biggest investor

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here. The only thing that has not followed up has been the trade,

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because it has been controlled by Brussels instead of us. That can now

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change. As far as I can see, there are almost no losers, and a lot of

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winners, including European allies. Glass three quarters full for you?

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Are you worried about some of the less savoury elements of the

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election campaign, seeing the British Prime Minister essentially,

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post-Brexit, having to go there and make friendly noises? I was not a

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Trump supporter. Are you now? Seems to me that the only proper attitude

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for a friend of America and a friend of American democracy is to say you

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have made your decision and this remains a powerful alliance. Whoever

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is in the White House? As long as America remains committed to the

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values of the West, this is our one key alliance. It has since 1941. You

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mentioned 1941, it seems, and we haven't got the detail of the

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executive order, it looks like it might have signed a ban on refugees

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on Holocaust Remembrance Day. How does that play with Western values?

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There were all sorts of aspects of his platform... Just focus on that

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one? As I say, I would not have voted for him. But Theresa May's job

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is not to go and lecture him and what her finger, her job is to get

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the best deal for us, and, by implication, the best deal for the

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broader community of Western countries. I think she did that

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today. She came out with a commitment on Nato, which would have

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delighted the Europeans. She slightly softened his position on

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the issue of sanctions on Russia. She has not just gone and played a

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subordinate role at all, it is clear there is give and take. She has

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established her own vision of what the special relationship can be and

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she has made relationships, by the way, not just with him. The US is a

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system with a divided government. An awful lot, in a very short press

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conference! That she has also been meeting, you know, the other leaders

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in Congress. This will be a key relationship, bigger than any two

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leaders. Do you buy this conflation that is so broad now of Brexit, with

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Trump, that without Brexit there would be no tramp? Given your

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established rejection of much of what he said and stood for in the

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election campaign, do you feel, as the arch Brexiteer, a degree of

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responsible to? I think the parallel has been greatly overdone. A big

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part of Donald Trump's appeal, as I understand it, was that he did not

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want free trade with China. A big part of Vote Leave's agenda was that

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we do. Brexit has a globalist and internationalist flavour that I

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don't think was there. The one thing that they have in common, I will

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concede this, was anger against what was perceived to be a failed

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governing class. I think it would be a mistake to see Brexit as being

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nativist or protectionist, it is much more about re-engagement with

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the wider world. Do you think they should have been a bit of finger

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wagging, that said? I have no idea what happened behind closed doors. I

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can only infer from what was said in front of those doors afterwards. The

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issues that people have concerns about, Nato, Russia sanctions and so

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on, he seems to have slightly softened his position on. I accept

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you are not as enthusiastic about drawing the two together some other

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Brexiteers, do you think the world is a safer place now Donald Trump is

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in the White House? He was not my preferred candidate. I think the

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world is a safer place when English-speaking democracies were

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together for the rule of law. English-speaking democracies? The

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alliance between the United Kingdom and the United States has been a far

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greater guarantor of human happiness than anybody likes to admit for the

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last 100 years. Imagine a world without it. We think of these

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universal values of free speech, equality for women, democracy, there

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would have been nothing universal about them if the Second World War

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ended differently, or the Cold War ended differently. We should

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remember the value of that alliance and what it has done, not just for

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us, but the other countries. But the alliance that was already extant? I

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just wanted to direct your view towards continental Europe. The

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candidate for the French presidency said that Britain lives in

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equilibrium with Europe, but now it is becoming the junior partner of

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the United States? On from being a big player... The absurdity of that

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is that the European Union is that political integration. It is about

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turning countries into something bigger, a political union. No

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country in the world is more jealous of its sovereignty than the United

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States. The idea that this could be anything other than an alliance of

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democracies, and I have one that goes wider, bringing in other

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friendly countries, that we would be drawn into a political union...

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English-speaking, or would we allow others? All friendly countries.

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There are so much virtue signalling, including from some British

:16:18.:16:20.

politicians, who are indulging themselves by signalling their

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distaste for this or that aspect of Donald Trump's domestic policy. They

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might just feel displaced. But if they were Prime Minister and not

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engaging with the will's largest economy, and our most important

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military ally, it would be a serious dereliction of duty.

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It would seem that the spokespeople and cheerleaders who spent much

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of last year insisting that Trump should be taken seriously but not

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literally, or that we should stop listening to his actual words

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and focus instead on what was in his heart are going to need

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Within days of assuming office Trump has signed executive orders

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addressing inter alia, pre-election pledges about banning

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all refugees from some Muslim countries and building that wall

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Newsnight's diplomatic editor Mark Urban has been considering just

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how significant those signatures will prove to be.

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The speech followed by a dispute over how many had attended heralded

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something loud and clear. From early morning tweets to abuse, President

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Trump is no different from campaign trail Trump. The idea of repealing

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Obamacare, the affordable care act, has been counted many times on the

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trail. And it is somewhere where the president and Republican lawmakers

:17:51.:17:53.

can agree in principle. But signing off on his first executive order,

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Trump could not scrap Obamacare in one stroke. That would lead the Mac

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relieved 20 million Americans uncovered. Republicans have thought

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about the alternative for some time but they have not necessarily agreed

:18:10.:18:13.

on what the policy is so I think there would have to be some

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agreement around policy and then the timing and sequencing has to come

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into play. I have thought this would be a several month process. In some

:18:23.:18:27.

areas, for example on resuming water boarding, the news has not been

:18:28.:18:32.

quite what it seems. When Isis is doing things people have not heard

:18:33.:18:36.

of since medieval times, would I feel strongly about water boarding?

:18:37.:18:41.

As far as I am concerned, we have to fight while with fire. In an ABC

:18:42.:18:47.

interview President Trump said it is clear torture works. But it is clear

:18:48.:18:53.

he the CIA director opposes it. I think he's communicating what voters

:18:54.:18:59.

feel and what he feels himself. At the same time that is different from

:19:00.:19:02.

the US government establishing a policy. We had the opposite from the

:19:03.:19:09.

Defence Secretary, Jim Mattis saying he has more success with a can of

:19:10.:19:14.

beer and a pack of cigarettes than anyone would using enhanced

:19:15.:19:19.

interrogation. That is uncertain, what about the Mexican wall? It is a

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key campaign promise but paying for it is proving entirely contentious.

:19:25.:19:30.

First the American president cancelled a planned visit, then

:19:31.:19:35.

President Trump talked about using a 20% import tariffs but legislation

:19:36.:19:41.

looks inevitable. It cannot be done simply by executive order. The issue

:19:42.:19:44.

now is can he rule by executive order and I think there are real and

:19:45.:19:50.

straights on that. The first constraint is obviously Congress

:19:51.:19:54.

itself which can actually legislate to stop him using executive orders

:19:55.:19:59.

if it wants, but anything Donald Trump sits in his office and signs,

:20:00.:20:02.

Congress will have the power to either fund or not fund. And then

:20:03.:20:08.

there is the government machine. Draft executive orders have already

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leaked, White House staff have badmouthed each other and civil

:20:13.:20:14.

servants have been tweeting subversively. I'm sure that in the

:20:15.:20:19.

federal workforce there are a lot of people who are very unhappy about

:20:20.:20:23.

Trump's collection, and will provide some kind of passive resistance to

:20:24.:20:30.

his leadership or active resistance. I re-hope people don't do that and

:20:31.:20:37.

get over it. It is everyone's DTE to try and make the administration that

:20:38.:20:40.

you're working for as successful as possible for the good of the

:20:41.:20:46.

country. For the moment, just one weekend, Trump still has plenty of

:20:47.:20:51.

political momentum, but with so many executive orders, uncertainty over

:20:52.:20:57.

how they will work, and fewer appointees in place, the

:20:58.:20:59.

complications have already started to multiply.

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In a moment we'll be talking to the foreign affairs expert,

:21:03.:21:04.

But first joining me now from Florida is the veteran

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republican political strategist Roger Stone, who is a long term

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Mr Stone, everyone was waiting for a pivot, they were waiting for the old

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phrase we campaign in poetry and govern in prose, but there isn't

:21:25.:21:30.

going to be one, is there? No, nor is there going to be any honeymoon.

:21:31.:21:34.

Donald Trump is exactly who he appears to be. He is his own man.

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He's not going to fit into some structure designed by others, and I

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believe that as long as he continues to implement his agenda, and make

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progress on the big issues, these small kerfuffle over his Twitter

:21:49.:21:53.

feed and the of the press and his correct in my view criticism of the

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media will not matter. What matters to the American people are results.

:21:57.:22:02.

Let me pick you up on that first point about him being his own man

:22:03.:22:06.

who is not going to try and fit into anybody else's worldview, how does

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that square with what he said about torture and fitting into James

:22:12.:22:15.

Mattis's worldview? I could not understand your question. You said

:22:16.:22:21.

he will be his own man and not be moulded by anyone else's views but

:22:22.:22:26.

the first thing he said in a press Conference today is he has allowed

:22:27.:22:31.

James Mattis to remould the attitude on torture. He will follow the lead

:22:32.:22:36.

of his Defence Secretary. First of all he has to do what is both legal

:22:37.:22:41.

and constitutional, regardless of what his personal views are. I

:22:42.:22:46.

understand his disgust at the tactics of Isis and I think he is

:22:47.:22:50.

trying to signal that he will do everything he can to crush Isis. At

:22:51.:22:56.

the same time, he like every other president has to follow the law.

:22:57.:22:59.

General Mattis is a good man, he knows what he is doing. I think he

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is wise to follow his lead. Will they be torture under a Trump

:23:07.:23:11.

Administration, knowing what you know of Donald Trump? I think he

:23:12.:23:15.

will push the limits legally and constitutionally. He wants to get

:23:16.:23:20.

tough on Isis as he can but at the end of the day he still has to abide

:23:21.:23:26.

by the law. You are a veteran of the dark arts of politicking, you seem

:23:27.:23:31.

to revel in the rascal -ish nature of the profession, so when you put

:23:32.:23:35.

it out that Ted Cruz' father was involved in the assassination of

:23:36.:23:40.

John F. Kennedy, one imagines you doing it with a wry smile and a

:23:41.:23:47.

thumbs up to the gallery. Donald Trump has a different view. When he

:23:48.:23:51.

spoke about being in Scotland the day before Brexit, the calendar in

:23:52.:23:55.

his own Twitter reveals he did not go there until the day after. Does

:23:56.:24:00.

he believe all of this himself even though the evidence contradicts him?

:24:01.:24:05.

I think there is some poetic licence there, but I am committed to the

:24:06.:24:18.

truth. And the issue about the Russians and the elections which is

:24:19.:24:22.

unproven... That is why I have not asked you about that. When he says

:24:23.:24:26.

he was in Scotland the day before the result came in and he predicted

:24:27.:24:30.

it all and his own Twitter account reveals he landed in Scotland the

:24:31.:24:33.

day after, does he believe it when he says it? Perhaps he was mistaken.

:24:34.:24:41.

Do you think any voter really cares? Identifying daycare. -- identity

:24:42.:24:50.

they care. When he says it was not raining during the inauguration but

:24:51.:24:54.

people could feel the raindrops landing on their head, it does he

:24:55.:25:00.

put himself in a position where he has persuaded himself that what he

:25:01.:25:06.

wants to be true is true? Well, having gone to the inauguration,

:25:07.:25:11.

having taken the occasion to find and where a morning suit, something

:25:12.:25:15.

I have wanted to do my entire life, I have to tell you it did not rain.

:25:16.:25:20.

There was a nanosecond when there was a sprinkling of raindrops, it

:25:21.:25:24.

was over in less than two minutes. I know because my wife did not want to

:25:25.:25:31.

get drenched, so I think on this occasion he was right. But not on

:25:32.:25:37.

the dates for arriving in Scotland. Congratulations on the morning suit.

:25:38.:25:43.

I am joined now by Anne Applebaum from the Washington Post. IU as

:25:44.:25:52.

upbeat about Donald Trump? Funnily enough I thought Mr Trump sounded

:25:53.:25:57.

less upbeat than I thought he was. I am holding fire. I will wait to see

:25:58.:26:02.

what happens. What would be good news, what would reassure you? What

:26:03.:26:08.

would reassure me, unfortunately, would be if Trump had announced he

:26:09.:26:13.

had thought it through, he had listened to his cabinet, he had

:26:14.:26:17.

spoken to experts, he had talked to people in the State Department, he

:26:18.:26:21.

had talked people in other departments and he had decided that

:26:22.:26:24.

the Liberal International order and the rule of law, and the rules based

:26:25.:26:28.

order that Theresa May spoke about, that these are things worth

:26:29.:26:33.

preserving and he has decided to preserve them. That would reassure

:26:34.:26:38.

me. And at that point his core support goes nuts? I am not sure

:26:39.:26:43.

because I am not sure what his core supporters were voting for him for?

:26:44.:26:53.

The wall and the ban on Muslims. It was not clear how much it matters.

:26:54.:26:58.

They clearly that is to some people but everybody, I am not sure. Is

:26:59.:27:02.

there a danger now that everybody is hearing what they want to hear and

:27:03.:27:07.

in fact he does move around quite a lot and possibly even today we may

:27:08.:27:11.

have seen evidence that his opinion can be in some way changed by the

:27:12.:27:15.

last person who made an impression on him. Theresa May very keen to

:27:16.:27:19.

come out and talk about Nato and Russian sanctions, if he is in a

:27:20.:27:26.

room with someone more hawkish tomorrow or more protectionist, he

:27:27.:27:29.

may switch again? As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the

:27:30.:27:31.

contrary, "no". One of the techniques he used to win the

:27:32.:27:34.

election, you can look at the way they used Facebook and his team used

:27:35.:27:36.

the Internet, they would put at dozens of different messages. People

:27:37.:27:45.

heard what they wanted to hear and they screamed out what they didn't

:27:46.:27:51.

want to hear. You and I are not used to it. We are confused by it and we

:27:52.:27:59.

find it contradictory. It was an election and it did help him get

:28:00.:28:04.

elected. The question is, can it help him rule? The statements he

:28:05.:28:07.

made about the wall and making Mexico pay for the wall, what has

:28:08.:28:11.

happened, he has destroyed relationships with one of America's

:28:12.:28:17.

most important allies and trading partnerships, the peso has crashed,

:28:18.:28:23.

people believe the border may come back, Nafta may be regulated which

:28:24.:28:27.

means hundreds and hundreds of businesses will be in trouble. They

:28:28.:28:33.

all heard some messages that he was sending to some people and those

:28:34.:28:37.

have now had a defect in real life. Now that he is president, that meant

:28:38.:28:43.

that instead of strewing messages out there and letting them sink into

:28:44.:28:46.

where they might, that will have effects in the real world. Do you

:28:47.:28:52.

believe Theresa May had much choice in trying to get to the front of the

:28:53.:28:58.

queue? Her visit to Washington was a real indication of how much more

:28:59.:29:03.

restricted Britain's choices are and how much less sovereignty Britain

:29:04.:29:08.

has been used to. Britain has no choice. She politically needs

:29:09.:29:12.

somewhere she can go when Britain leads the EU. She needs someone she

:29:13.:29:17.

can point to as a partner. I had worried that one of her partners

:29:18.:29:21.

might be Russia or China or Turkey... She is in Turkey next! She

:29:22.:29:28.

would need somebody out of the periphery. She might go to the anti

:29:29.:29:33.

democratic world. And Trump as a blessing from the sky has given her

:29:34.:29:37.

this opportunity. But almost everything she said in her speech

:29:38.:29:41.

yesterday, and everything she said about global Britain in the last few

:29:42.:29:45.

days, contradicts directly what Trump has said. But they held hands.

:29:46.:29:49.

Anne Applebaum thank you. We have, inevitably,

:29:50.:29:53.

been viewing the nascent Trump Presidency and the new world

:29:54.:29:55.

order many believe it will presage Let's have a little look

:29:56.:29:57.

now at how it appears What I see is America becoming more

:29:58.:30:15.

protectionist, becoming more nationalist, that they are

:30:16.:30:17.

withdrawing from global trade and global agreements, and, at the same

:30:18.:30:30.

time, China taking up that position. The President was at Davos to give a

:30:31.:30:38.

speech, stating China's desire to take a leadership on global trade,

:30:39.:30:42.

which will be for the prosperity and peace of the world, and also taking

:30:43.:30:44.

the lead on climate change. If it is business deals,

:30:45.:30:58.

renegotiating trade deals, cancelling them, amending them, that

:30:59.:31:02.

is one thing. If it's going to be a projection of military power, again,

:31:03.:31:09.

that is going to be very dangerous. But, of course, from Mr Trump's

:31:10.:31:15.

first utterances, it appears he realises those dangers. The European

:31:16.:31:23.

partners are very much in doubt whether the United States will

:31:24.:31:29.

continue to be a trustful ally in Nato. Then, fundamentally, I think

:31:30.:31:38.

it is important to emphasise that in his inauguration speech, he hasn't

:31:39.:31:41.

emphasised the value of human rights, democracy, of liberal order,

:31:42.:31:46.

which is really another fundamental the global order, as we have built

:31:47.:31:50.

that, together with the United States. His brief comments on

:31:51.:31:53.

torture just prove that he is ready to really question fundamental

:31:54.:31:54.

principles. The historian Simon Schama is here,

:31:55.:31:56.

alongside Ted Malloch, who is widely tipped for a role

:31:57.:31:59.

in the Trump administration - possibly as Ambassador

:32:00.:32:01.

to the European Union. You don't have any news for us?

:32:02.:32:13.

Maybe next week. Simon, you have taken to social media and coined the

:32:14.:32:21.

Rhine Theresa the appeaser. Anything to appease your fears today? Not

:32:22.:32:26.

particularly. The spectacle of them holding hands, actually, doesn't in

:32:27.:32:32.

any rational way speak to your question, it did turn my stomach

:32:33.:32:37.

somewhat. We don't know that it didn't turn hers. The fear that she

:32:38.:32:44.

is cosying up to a regime that may prove to be, as an historian, may

:32:45.:32:48.

stand comparison with other 20th-century horrors, are you

:32:49.:32:53.

stepping back? I think scary authoritarian regimes, not to

:32:54.:33:01.

inaccurately paraphrase, are scary and authoritarian each in their own

:33:02.:33:05.

way. I think this is starting to look incredibly scary and

:33:06.:33:09.

authoritarian. Particularly, actually, banning the possibility of

:33:10.:33:14.

the Environmental Protection Agency delivering data to the public. All

:33:15.:33:21.

sorts of things, I think, are serious. But the most worrying part

:33:22.:33:26.

of all, which does not speak to the authoritarian issue, but something

:33:27.:33:35.

more loopy, is his lack of contact with reality. Today, he doubled down

:33:36.:33:38.

on the extraordinary assertion that between three million and 5 million

:33:39.:33:42.

illegal immigrant votes were cast. It is absolutely, this was actually

:33:43.:33:48.

delivered to a reception in which, the first reception he had with

:33:49.:33:53.

congressional leaders, there were treated to being harangued on this

:33:54.:33:58.

fantastic story, with no evidence whatsoever. He is starting an

:33:59.:34:03.

investigation into an election he won! This is beyond absurd. There

:34:04.:34:09.

are three objectives there that I will pick up on, absurd, scary and

:34:10.:34:15.

authoritarian. Do you recognise what he describes? Nonobvious above.

:34:16.:34:22.

Where would you like me to start? -- none of the above. The voter fraud

:34:23.:34:30.

allegations, the Democrats swung 3 million illegal votes, but not put

:34:31.:34:37.

them anywhere that would win an election? Well, let's have an

:34:38.:34:41.

investigation, if somebody has evidence... The evidence comes from

:34:42.:34:48.

Greg Phillips! You have the investigation and come to the

:34:49.:34:52.

conclusions afterwards. We have an investigation into Russian hacking

:34:53.:35:00.

and find out the truth. Hopefully we have imperial evidence, rather than

:35:01.:35:03.

dismissing them out of hand. Why not look at them? Even on the liberal

:35:04.:35:07.

left, we are willing to look at actual facts. Empirical evidence,

:35:08.:35:15.

obviously... A social scientist. So climate change is on the table?

:35:16.:35:20.

People have different points of view. We are talking about empirical

:35:21.:35:26.

data? 10% of hard scientists have some questions. Let me draw the

:35:27.:35:30.

conversation out, if I may, and look at whether or not you feel, as

:35:31.:35:34.

somebody that clearly Donald Trump holds in high regard, that we are at

:35:35.:35:43.

a pivotal point in Western history? I think we are at a turn in Western

:35:44.:35:49.

history. Obviously we have had a change from one regime to another

:35:50.:35:55.

regime, so you have that. But you also have a more national orientated

:35:56.:35:58.

and more populist orientated political caste. Not just in the

:35:59.:36:07.

United States, in many countries around the world. Maybe a new order

:36:08.:36:11.

is beginning to appear. Nationalist, populist, they are not new ideas?

:36:12.:36:19.

Well, in this form, this time, yes. Frankly, are there any new ideas

:36:20.:36:24.

since Plato? We could have that debate. Nationalism and populism

:36:25.:36:33.

rarely lead to harmony. Lead to harmony? Well, there are different

:36:34.:36:36.

kinds of nationalism, different kinds of populism. America first,

:36:37.:36:46.

let's take that slogan. Do you know who used the term first? Well,

:36:47.:36:55.

Wilson? But it was reprehensible when he used it. Maybe when

:36:56.:36:59.

Lindbergh used it it was more reprehensible. Lindbergh was an

:37:00.:37:05.

appeaser. He was soft on the Nazis. It is an irony that Trump has moved

:37:06.:37:12.

Churchill back into his office, who detested everything about the slogan

:37:13.:37:16.

and what America first stood for. But he needed America to help save

:37:17.:37:21.

Britain at a certain point in time. Trump is not intellectually

:37:22.:37:30.

connected with that wonderful litany of intellectual history. He is

:37:31.:37:34.

interested in literally putting America first, re-establishing

:37:35.:37:38.

America's place in the world, America's economy. That is the thing

:37:39.:37:41.

to underscore. He got elected on a platform that said the middle class

:37:42.:37:47.

has suffered for at least 15 years. Not just the last eight years, but

:37:48.:37:52.

it has suffered and it needs to come back. Why is he proposing a tax cut

:37:53.:37:58.

that will benefit, hugely and disproportionally, the top 1%? You

:37:59.:38:02.

know about supply-side economics, it has worked before. It hasn't. At

:38:03.:38:07.

work for John Kennedy, it worked for Ronald Reagan and it could work this

:38:08.:38:11.

time. In four years we could have a balanced budget. We had a balanced

:38:12.:38:21.

budget under Bill Clinton. Newt Gingrich was the head of Congress

:38:22.:38:24.

and they did it together. I'm interested in the distinction

:38:25.:38:27.

between literally and seriously. It has been a recurring theme. You

:38:28.:38:31.

taken seriously, but not literally. You have always taken him literally?

:38:32.:38:36.

I think you could taking either way and people obviously have. He's

:38:37.:38:41.

President now, he is not campaigning. That is true. There

:38:42.:38:46.

should be some difference, you know. Have you seen any yet? In five days,

:38:47.:38:51.

I think we are beginning to... I think we saw some of it today, in

:38:52.:38:55.

the meeting under the summit with Theresa May. Thank you both. Are you

:38:56.:39:03.

seeing any cause for cautious optimism, or a delusion of

:39:04.:39:06.

pessimism? No. Thank you very much indeed. Let's look at the papers. No

:39:07.:39:14.

surprise for guessing what is on the front pages. I will keep you in

:39:15.:39:18.

suspense. There is a prize for guessing.

:39:19.:39:20.

It was 1974, on a struggling local American TV channel.

:39:21.:39:25.

A little known reporter shot herself on live television,

:39:26.:39:27.

apparently claiming it was a protest against the drive for blood

:39:28.:39:30.

As with every suicide, the answers to why she did it

:39:31.:39:36.

are likely more complex and Christine Chubbock had

:39:37.:39:38.

struggled with longstanding mental health issues.

:39:39.:39:42.

A new film, Christine, is out today - and charts the days

:39:43.:39:45.

leading up to that awful moment, captured on live TV.

:39:46.:39:50.

Katie Razzall went to meet its leading actor, Rebecca Hall.

:39:51.:39:56.

Broadcast in real-time, live TV is almost old hat

:39:57.:39:58.

But as a way of recounting world events as they happen,

:39:59.:40:08.

it can be dramatic, compelling and uncontrollable.

:40:09.:40:09.

I'm a reporter at WZRB and I'm always on the lookout...

:40:10.:40:15.

In 1974 in Sarasota, Florida, the worst did, when a local

:40:16.:40:19.

television reporter who suffered long-term mental health issues shot

:40:20.:40:22.

herself live on-air, claiming it was a protest

:40:23.:40:24.

at being asked to sensationalise the journalism she held dear.

:40:25.:40:29.

She is, in some small sense, famous on the internet,

:40:30.:40:38.

as being one of the sort of top ten most shocking things that ever

:40:39.:40:42.

Because she took her life on live TV.

:40:43.:40:49.

She said, "In keeping with the network's desire for blood

:40:50.:40:52.

and guts television, here's a first -

:40:53.:40:53.

It's an act of terrorism, almost, in that sense.

:40:54.:40:59.

She is making it political, and she is making a comment

:41:00.:41:03.

on the thing that she very much didn't want to do.

:41:04.:41:05.

She was someone who was under constant pressure from the higher

:41:06.:41:08.

ups, in this small network, to create juicy reporting

:41:09.:41:11.

It's believed only a few hundred people watched

:41:12.:41:18.

Christine Chubbuck's death live on TV.

:41:19.:41:22.

The nature of the internet means these days suicides live on Facebook

:41:23.:41:25.

have been watched by people around the world.

:41:26.:41:28.

I think if it happened now, I think it would be inescapable.

:41:29.:41:34.

And that is actually rather disturbing to think about.

:41:35.:41:37.

I suppose it's true that now people do kill themselves on Facebook Live

:41:38.:41:40.

and they have difficulties getting the material off, their relatives.

:41:41.:41:43.

And one shouldn't have access to that footage,

:41:44.:41:46.

In the film, she says, "can you record this?"

:41:47.:41:51.

I understand there's a tape, and I also understand

:41:52.:41:58.

that the family went to court and got it from the station

:41:59.:42:01.

There's a lot of rumour and speculation about it.

:42:02.:42:07.

I don't really want to get into that.

:42:08.:42:10.

I don't think anyone should see that and we should respect the family's

:42:11.:42:13.

Otherwise it is grisly and sensationalistic

:42:14.:42:15.

There's a reason this idea is catching fire

:42:16.:42:25.

They didn't show that, they cut out just before.

:42:26.:42:31.

They didn't have the guts to show the whole thing.

:42:32.:42:34.

They could have doubled their ratings.

:42:35.:42:35.

The equivalent now would be clickbait.

:42:36.:42:37.

What's the most shocking way you can describe a story so that

:42:38.:42:40.

someone will click on it and read the article?

:42:41.:42:42.

Because you get more ratings, or whatever term

:42:43.:42:44.

I pledge to you tonight, from this office, that I will do

:42:45.:42:50.

everything in my power to ensure that the guilty are

:42:51.:42:52.

It's like, the 1970s were, in many respects,

:42:53.:42:55.

But also, you've got, for the first time, there is extreme

:42:56.:43:06.

violence in people's homes, on television, because

:43:07.:43:07.

And it really is, I think there are so many things

:43:08.:43:16.

that are conflating, and Christine's story sort of

:43:17.:43:20.

The fact that she asked for her show to be video taped that day indicates

:43:21.:43:26.

Clearly, is a timely story because not just Hall's Christine,

:43:27.:43:35.

but another film about Chubbuck debuted at last year's

:43:36.:43:37.

No, no, not the tape of the suicide, but anything at all...

:43:38.:43:47.

I always think the thing about any piece of drama that's set in another

:43:48.:43:50.

time is it says something about the time in which it's set,

:43:51.:43:53.

but it arguably say something even more significant about the time

:43:54.:43:56.

And, you know, when I think of 1974 in America, and I have read a lot

:43:57.:44:05.

around this in preparation for this film, there's a real sense of...

:44:06.:44:08.

Paranoia and uncertainty about where the world's going.

:44:09.:44:16.

You're coming out of the 60s with a sense of, you know,

:44:17.:44:19.

the stakes are life-and-death, where are we going, what's happening

:44:20.:44:22.

I don't think that audiences right now are going to have a hard time

:44:23.:44:32.

As you know, I have a running war with the media.

:44:33.:44:37.

They are among the most dishonest human beings on earth.

:44:38.:44:44.

We need to be vigilant, and the way that we do

:44:45.:44:47.

that is through the press, and for it to be proper journalism

:44:48.:44:51.

that delivers us the information that we need in order

:44:52.:44:53.

I thought she was meant to get some fresh flowers?

:44:54.:45:04.

Yeah, I told her to, it must have slipped her mind.

:45:05.:45:07.

Well, I can't think about anything else, sorry,

:45:08.:45:10.

For better or worse, Christine was a harbinger for a lot

:45:11.:45:19.

of things that we still, as a society, have a rough

:45:20.:45:22.

Ultimately, it's quite easy to humanise characters

:45:23.:45:28.

Even characters who have awful things happen to them,

:45:29.:45:36.

and are victims of things, but remain essentially good.

:45:37.:45:39.

It's crucial for artists to humanise people that we'd

:45:40.:45:43.

rather look away from, or would rather just

:45:44.:45:47.

You know, put that person in a box and just label it monster,

:45:48.:45:58.

crazy or whatever, and let's just not think about it.

:45:59.:46:01.

Katie Razzall there with Rebecca Hall, the star of the new film

:46:02.:46:26.

Christine which opens at the weekend. There is an outbreak of

:46:27.:46:33.

unanimity on the picture desk. This will soon be the iconic image of

:46:34.:46:37.

Donald Trump. It is hard to see who is helping hood down the stairs but

:46:38.:46:41.

Donald Trump holding hands with Prime Minister Theresa May. The

:46:42.:46:46.

Daily Mail has gone for the open goal. -- Daily Mirror.

:46:47.:46:56.

They have some insect photographs showing even more physical warmth

:46:57.:47:02.

between the two. And then the Guardian has a more sombre headline

:47:03.:47:07.

but the photograph remains the same. All three papers referring to the

:47:08.:47:12.

Nato pledge which Theresa May revealed she had prised from the

:47:13.:47:17.

president. And that is all that we have time for. Good night.

:47:18.:47:22.