26/01/2017 Newsnight


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26/01/2017

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.


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To join hands, as we pick up that mantle of leadership once more. To

:00:09.:00:17.

renew our special relationship, and to recommit ourselves to the

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responsibility of leadership in the modern world.

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"Haven't you noticed? Sometimes opposites attract."

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So said Theresa May en-route to her meeting with Donald Trump.

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She's been turning on the charm for senior Republicans this evening -

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so how will she handle the president?

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We'll hear from former Labour leader Ed Miliband.

:00:35.:00:38.

On the eve of summit to discuss gay sex and the clergy,

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we discuss the Church of England policy to pretend

:00:43.:00:49.

Tomorrow, the long awaited sequel to Trainspotting opens

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But what was it about that film that entranced a whole generation?

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It is primarily a youth book, and a youth movie.

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Because I would rather be, kind of, on drugs in a bedsit in my 20s

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than I would be sailing around the Bay of Biscay in a yacht

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Charming senior Republicans with a speech in Philadelphia

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and stressing the historic ties between the UK and the US.

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Her messages on leadership, free trade and shared values went

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Tomorrow - the diplomacy might get trickier.

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In the Commons before she left for Philadelphia,

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politicians of all stripes were queuing up to offer her advice,

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If she'd listened to the majority of them she would have a list

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of grievances in her briefcase, everything from human rights

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In fact, the new president has offered the hope that we might

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have a closer relationship than over the last eight years -

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after all, he wants a new trade deal and he's a big fan of Brexit.

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Our diplomatic editor Mark Urban is here.

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What was the tone of her speech? It was reaching out for lot of downing

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-- a lot of people in Downing Street Sea as a big political opportunity

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in the UK, but problematic as his reputation may be, his remarks are

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favourable of the UK, and at the expense of Germany, President Obama

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praised those countries so high in his last weeks in office, they

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constituted an opportunity. Let's hear what she had to say. President

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Trump's victory, achieved in defiance of all the pundits and the

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polls, rooted not in the corridors of Washington but in the hopes and

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aspirations of working men and women across this land. You are part of

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this victory, in the Congress and the Senate, where you swept all

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before you, secured with great effort and achieved with an

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important message of national renewal. And because of this,

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because of what you have done together, the cause of that great

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victory that you have won, America can be stronger, greater and more

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confident in the years ahead. Fascinatingly there, not too many

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mentions of President Trump, but addressing the congressmen and women

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and senators directly a few times, and mentions of Nato too. It is a

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congressional do, this conclave, but one can see her acknowledging the

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complexity of the way that power is dispensed in Washington, and

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reaching out directly to those people and making her pitch to them

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as well. Of course, President Trump tomorrow. She is meeting Donald

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Trump tomorrow but one leader will not be next in line? It was supposed

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to be happening next week, President Pena Nieto of Mexico was meant to

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come, this would be the beginning of tough talk about trade and the wall.

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All of those things but people have been asking, what will happen when

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Trump sends one of these tweets? That is exactly what happened today.

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He said they may as well not come if they are not prepared to pay for the

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wall. A couple of hours later, in Mexico City, it was announced that

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the meeting was. That wrong-footed the president for a while, he

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appeared on live television saying that he would slap a 20% Harris on

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Mexican imports -- tariff. Then people around him in the White House

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moved back a bit, you had to put legal and other arrangements in

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place. We are beginning to see the first signs of someone who has the

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impulse to act like President Putin, dealing with the constitutions of

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the democracy. But, Theresa May is in there tomorrow. There is an

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aspect where people understand that President Obama was not that great

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for Britain in some ways, and this is a new opportunity to define, as

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she said, redefine, a special relationship.

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Until last week, there was a president widely esteemed

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in Britain who didn't exactly return the love.

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He removed Winston Churchill's bust from the Oval Office, couldn't

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forget the treatment his grandfather received in Kenya and plainly

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considered Germany a more important ally than Britain.

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As I reflect back over the last eight years,

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I could not ask for a steadier or more reliable partner

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Now, of course, there's a president who alarms or appals

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a great many Britons, but who, in marked contrast

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to Obama, is seeing Theresa May ahead of all other foreign leaders,

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and, it seems, couldn't be more supportive of Brexit.

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He doesn't seem to like the European Union.

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He seems to be encouraging other people to follow our example

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Now, a lot of people in the United Kingdom consider these

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things to be terrible negatives, but it does give Theresa May some

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It was Palmerston, and who better for this age in which we seem to be

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turning to 19th-century style jostling nationalisms.

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He said, Britain has no eternal allies and no eternal enemies.

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So, if it's in Britain's vital interest to cosy up

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The question is of course whether it's also in the interests

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This is a protectionist president, so any idea that he's

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We stand to lose our environmental protections, our food standards,

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our food assurances, and this will be a Trojan

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Britain can of course offer Trump something back in some areas.

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If the Donald accuses many Nato allies of being freeloaders,

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that's not so different to long-held a Downing Street views.

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Instead of planning expensive new headquarters or dreaming

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of a European army, what Europe needs to do now is to spend

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That is the best possible approach to the Trump presidency.

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But on so many questions, from policy towards Israel

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to torture, Putin or withdrawal of funding from the UN, Britain

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How to break the news to Trump gently?

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This is not going to be easy for her.

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She's got to steer between not behaving like a British poodle

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to the American president, but at the same time,

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creating a atmosphere in which, as she said herself,

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you can invest new meaning in the special relationship.

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These days, and we saw this during the last visit

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here by the Chinese president, diplomacy as demanded by many

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on Twitter or even from the floor of the House of Commons

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would involve lecturing a foreign leader on why their values

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Unsurprisingly, foreign leaders are no keener on that than any

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Tonight, Theresa May arrived in America, telling reporters

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frankly that any resumption of CIA "enhanced interrogation"

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With suggestions the two leaders may give a joint news

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conference tomorrow, the Prime Minister's balancing act

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At least, though, she can start on the basis that,

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since his election, Donald Trump has saved some of his kindest words

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for Britain, and has moved that famous bust of Churchill back

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In a moment, we'll speak to the former Labour Leader Ed Miliband.

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But first - the Daily Telegraph columnist Tim Stanley is with us.

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Good evening. Hello. What should Theresa May do tomorrow, should she

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go in all guns blazing? I think what she will do is what she is going to

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be doing anyway, saying one thing publicly and another privately.

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Publicly, she has started on a strong foot saying I'm with you, not

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just strategically but there is a philosophical connection between us.

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She rolled out lavish praise. Privately, I would not be surprised

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if she says to him firstly, drop the language about torture. Aside from

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Britain believing it immoral, illegal and wrong, it is a

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propaganda coup for the enemy. I expect that she will push hard on

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America continuing to be the leading force within Nato. I suspect what we

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have seen here, publicly, is not necessarily the tone behind closed

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doors. In that speech tonight she mentioned Nato eight times, she

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has strong signals, but we know that Donald Trump does not like that and

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is capable of turning around and saying something less than

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diplomatic? We do not know that yet. We are testing Trump is a president,

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working out of what he says publicly is what he gets on with and does.

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Torture is an example. In the press, we need to learn to distinguish what

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he is saying when he is in reality television mode, when he speaks

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casually, and what he does. When it comes to torture, the new head of

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the CIA says that he is against it, the head of defence is against it,

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heads of Republicans in Congress are against it. It is unlikely to

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happen, let's hope what he says is not what happens. And Theresa May

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has a huge list of grievances, is it your personal view that trumping all

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else... Not unintentional pun! There is this idea that Britain will get a

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good trade deal, does that kick everything else out the water? No,

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that is what she leads on and once but she has two big about what he

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wants. He needs us as much as we need him? Yes. He is selling himself

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as a great businessman but nobody ready wants to speak to him right

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now except the British, they are the most enthusiasts it, except perhaps

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the Israelis. Also, the Association with Britain carries credibility

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when it comes to global strategy, he can reassert that he is going to

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beat Nato and this is his chance to reassure the world. That is what

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Britain provides in a special relationship. Did you get that

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sense, although the inauguration was razzmatazz, did you get a sense that

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there was an undertow of this? That something has happened since the

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inauguration, there is a different mood? I don't, rhetorically he is

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sticking with appeasing his base. He has taken the view that he has won

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by getting enough states to back me, just. I want to cling on to those

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people so that four years I scraped through again, rather than appealing

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to global leadership. It is clearly America first, is it necessarily

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Britain second? No, I think that there is a correlation between what

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Trump wants to achieve and what we want to achieve. When it comes to

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combating Islamist terrorism, and trade. And this new philosophy. Six

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months ago or so, Britain was a pariah in the world, we cut

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ourselves off from Europe and we had a president who did not really like

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us and we went to the back of the queue. Suddenly, we are best mates

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with the leader of the world which is fantastic. Thank you.

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Isn't it great that the British prime ministers first in line with

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the new leader of the free world? Not with Donald Trump! I think that

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Tim is underestimating what has happened this week in him becoming

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president, banning refugees, endorsing torture... Hang on,

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endorsing torture...? It is dizzying, starting a trade war with

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Mexico today, listing sanctions on Saturday... This is not a normal

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time. Her speech was a perfectly decent one, if it had been normal

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times. But to align yourself so closely with his project? Which is

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what she did. I think that was a mistake. If Ed Miliband was Prime

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Minister, would you have gone? And, speaking to senior Republicans,

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would... I probably would not have been speaking to senior Republicans!

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What would your line have been? Let me put it this way, I prefer Angela

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Merkel to Theresa May in how this is being handled. Think about what

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Angela Merkel did the day after the presidential election. She said that

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a partnership with America is important but on the basis of

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particular norms and values, on human rights, commitment to equality

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and things which are important. You don't take Tim Stanley's point? This

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is mood music for a particular audience? Signals matter, Trump only

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respects strength, and they matter to a reputation around the world.

:14:20.:14:23.

Let me take issue with one thing in that film, and what Tim said,

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President Obama... What is it about this sudden denigration of President

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Obama? As Leader of the Opposition, are used to think that he has a

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fantastic relationship with President Obama, David Cameron. I

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was jealous! Suddenly, President Obama is cast as the enemy of

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Britain... But let's be clear, during that debate on the EU

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referendum, Barack Obama said quite clearly that there would be no

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special treatment. But he took a position on Brexit, I think it was a

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bad thing or a good thing, personally he said we need a strong

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Europe and Britain would make Europe stronger. I think the notion that we

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had an enemy in the White House and now we have a friend, on this trade

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deal point, it is really important, people may not realise but those

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tariffs we have with the USA are incredibly low already. What worries

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me about this idea of a trade deal is that it goes to nontariff

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barriers. That means regulation. Around health care, the environment,

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employee rights. They have less regulation than us. So, I think this

:15:29.:15:32.

trade deal is really dangerous, it's a Trojan horse where we seem to be

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locking ourselves in Donald Trump's boot. We actually haven't, Theresa

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May was quite careful. I think it is right what Mark said, when it comes

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to going and lecturing other people, we all have memories. We have

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memories of Gordon Brown going to China and expecting to hear great

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things about liberty and freedom in China, was that behind closed doors

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gritter muck it was not in public. I thought that you would mention Tony

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Blair and George Bush. That ended pretty badly... There is a lesson

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about that. Our alliances with America should be based on values

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and those what we hold in common, not simply on the idea that we want

:16:14.:16:16.

to be at the front of a notional queue. But the idea that you

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ideological agree with every leader around the world caused nonsense.

:16:21.:16:25.

You need to make priorities. I wonder if what you do, you say, if

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you are going to ban Muslims from certain countries, we will not work

:16:31.:16:33.

together. If you consider torture, we will not work together. If you

:16:34.:16:38.

deny climate change, we went work together. Really? I think it is

:16:39.:16:42.

time, this is about self-interest. Let me be clear, it is

:16:43.:16:46.

self-interest, that we are strong defending climate change. It is in

:16:47.:17:00.

our interests to defend a two state solution for Israel and Palestine,

:17:01.:17:02.

Donald Trump wants to overturn it it seems. There were good notes in

:17:03.:17:05.

Theresa May's speech tonight, she had to mention those things but that

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was not the main thrust of the speech. Britain voted for Brexit,

:17:08.:17:09.

Donald Trump supports it... There is one point of agreement. But he wants

:17:10.:17:13.

Nigel Farage to be ambassador. Goodness me! What hinges on this

:17:14.:17:20.

trade deal... If you think it is a get out of jail card for any

:17:21.:17:24.

economic problems you might get for Brexit, maybe you think it is worth

:17:25.:17:27.

us locking ourselves in the boot. I am very sceptical and let's not

:17:28.:17:31.

forget, he is a protectionist. They are very sceptical of trade Guilds

:17:32.:17:34.

and he's about to impose tariffs on Mexico. -- trade Guilds. Let's go

:17:35.:17:39.

back to that question and conversation about torture. You said

:17:40.:17:45.

it would be dependent on the chief and CIA... If you were Prime

:17:46.:17:48.

Minister, would you, at this moment, allow British agents to share

:17:49.:17:52.

intelligence with American agents, if there was any chance of torture?

:17:53.:17:58.

No, we can't beat complicit in torture, absolutely not. We need

:17:59.:18:07.

strong words and signals. Our reputation around the world matters.

:18:08.:18:13.

Foreign leaders will be looking at what other faults tonight. Let's

:18:14.:18:19.

talk a little bit again about Brexit and labour, Labour seems to be in

:18:20.:18:24.

disarray again, we have had eight resignation from the Shadow Cabinet.

:18:25.:18:30.

Will there ever be any kind of peace within Labour when there are two

:18:31.:18:33.

distinct positions on Brexit. I'm not sure it is about peace, Labour

:18:34.:18:38.

is wrestling with the difficult issue which is that we represent

:18:39.:18:43.

lots of Remain voters and Leave voters. I think we should accept

:18:44.:18:47.

that the exit is going to happen, but we should hold the Government to

:18:48.:18:53.

account for the kind of deal, and let me just say this one point,

:18:54.:18:56.

because people may not have focused on this. The vote and amendments

:18:57.:19:01.

that we have to this article 50 bill matter, and a matter for this reason

:19:02.:19:04.

most of all. What kind of odour we get at the end? Do we get a vote

:19:05.:19:09.

which is take it or leave it, either for light of the European Union

:19:10.:19:12.

without a deal, or do we get a vote that is meaningful, which is what

:19:13.:19:17.

Keir Starmer and Jeremy Corbyn and others are pushing for, and they are

:19:18.:19:20.

right to do so. Ed Miliband, thank you very much.

:19:21.:19:25.

the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn's doesn't want his MPs to block

:19:26.:19:29.

Trouble is - not all his MPs are playing along with that plan.

:19:30.:19:33.

I am joined by our political editor Nick Watt.

:19:34.:19:35.

It will be a clear decision that we want all of our MPs

:19:36.:19:39.

to support the Article 50 vote when it comes up next week.

:19:40.:19:41.

But no commitment to a three line whip?

:19:42.:19:43.

My constituents voted to remain in the European Union.

:19:44.:19:49.

I am leaning towards voting against Article 50 because I'm

:19:50.:19:51.

And if I have to resign my shadow ministerial position

:19:52.:19:55.

because of the stance I take, it would be unfortunate,

:19:56.:19:57.

but I am here as the MP for Hampstead and Kilburn.

:19:58.:20:03.

I'm joined now by our political editor Nick Watt and the MPs

:20:04.:20:10.

Amsterdam Kilburn did indeed resign. That's right, so Jeremy Corbyn faced

:20:11.:20:14.

a mini rebellion today, at one point it looked like it might reach into

:20:15.:20:17.

his inner circle of supporters with thoughts that Clive Lewis, the

:20:18.:20:20.

Shadow Business Secretary, might resign, but in the end he stayed

:20:21.:20:22.

put, and tulips -- Tulip Siddiq said the she would

:20:23.:20:39.

go. And the transport Minister has told the Cambridge News that he will

:20:40.:20:44.

be standing by his constituents, 75% of whom voted Remain, and he will

:20:45.:20:48.

live with the consequences. So what does this mean for Labour? This is a

:20:49.:20:53.

rare rebellion where the leadership has some sympathy with the rebels,

:20:54.:20:57.

and that is not just because Jeremy Corbyn campaigned to remain in the

:20:58.:21:02.

European Union, though not with much enthusiasm, but this says that they

:21:03.:21:09.

are in eight unique position, two thirds of voters supported Remain,

:21:10.:21:14.

but two thirds of Labour MPs represent constituents that voted

:21:15.:21:22.

Leave, so there is talk about how opinion was divided, and we can

:21:23.:21:28.

expect some defying of the leadership, but it may not take the

:21:29.:21:32.

traditional form of the sack, and it shows a dilemma for a party that is

:21:33.:21:37.

struggling to come to terms with Brexit Britain. Thank you very much

:21:38.:21:39.

indeed. Now, in this age of alternative

:21:40.:21:41.

facts and fake news, we thought it might be useful to provide

:21:42.:21:44.

you with something rather more reliable -

:21:45.:21:46.

a non-fake fact of the day. We've just been talking

:21:47.:21:48.

about Tulip Siddiq's resignation from the front bench

:21:49.:21:50.

of the Labour Party, so that she could vote

:21:51.:21:53.

against Article 50 - in line with her constituency's big

:21:54.:21:58.

Remain vote, and perhaps But that's not something that should

:21:59.:22:00.

bother most Labour MPs. Only one in three of them

:22:01.:22:06.

are in constituencies estimated And more than half of those MPs

:22:07.:22:08.

have a majority greater than 10,000. In other words, most Labour MPs can

:22:09.:22:20.

vote for Article 50 without worrying about misrepresenting

:22:21.:22:23.

their constituencies - and most of those that can't

:22:24.:22:24.

probably don't need to worry too much about losing

:22:25.:22:27.

their seats over it. Tomorrow the Church of England

:22:28.:22:32.

is likely to come up with a policy for sexual relationships among gay

:22:33.:22:35.

clergy which as far as we understand will operate on the basis

:22:36.:22:38.

of 'don't ask don't tell'.. In other words 'what the eye doesn't

:22:39.:22:40.

see the heart doesn't grieve'. In many ways, the Church of

:22:41.:22:52.

England's attitude to sexuality has changed radically in the last

:22:53.:22:56.

century, and in many others it has stayed exactly the same. Today, the

:22:57.:23:01.

church is fond of highlighting its important role in the Wolfenden

:23:02.:23:06.

report in 1957 which was key to the partial decriminalisation of,

:23:07.:23:11.

sexuality. But although several bishops gave public support to the

:23:12.:23:16.

new law in 1967, it was not necessary evidence of a liberal

:23:17.:23:21.

attitude. The then Archbishop of Canterbury Michael Ramsey stated,

:23:22.:23:27.

there will be no declaring that homosexual practices are a correct

:23:28.:23:34.

use of sex. A report in 1991 cemented the church is modern issues

:23:35.:23:38.

toward sexuality, reinforcing Christian attitudes, and stated that

:23:39.:23:41.

engaging in gay activity, or as they called it, homophile activity, was

:23:42.:23:54.

not part of the clergy. But they also said, if we are faithful to our

:23:55.:24:03.

Lord then disagreement of the proper expression of homosexual love will

:24:04.:24:05.

never be a rejection of the homosexual person. The Lambeth

:24:06.:24:09.

conference reaffirmed the ban on the blessing of same-sex couples. When

:24:10.:24:16.

civil partnerships were legalised in 2004, the house of Bishops declared

:24:17.:24:19.

this wasn't incompatible with holy orders, again on the condition of

:24:20.:24:25.

celibacy. Gay marriage was legalised in 2013, creating the so-called

:24:26.:24:29.

quadruple lock which made it illegal for the Church of England to perform

:24:30.:24:35.

same-sex marriage is. The Pilling report of the following year stopped

:24:36.:24:38.

short of endorsing same-sex marriage, but recommended that the

:24:39.:24:43.

church conduct ceremonies that would be marriages in all but name. In

:24:44.:24:47.

response, the house of Bishops called for a process of shared

:24:48.:24:51.

conversations in a divided church. The results of that two-year process

:24:52.:24:53.

will be unveiled tomorrow. Joining us in the studio

:24:54.:24:55.

to discuss this further are Father Andrew Foreshew-Cain,

:24:56.:24:58.

Vicar of St Mary and All Souls Church in Kilburn and Susie Leafe,

:24:59.:25:01.

Director of Reform, an Evangelical

:25:02.:25:03.

Anglican Organisation Good evening to you both. What is

:25:04.:25:13.

the proposal to be? We really don't know. You are both in the Senedd.

:25:14.:25:20.

The house of Bishops will make a statement tomorrow. The paper will

:25:21.:25:25.

be released tomorrow, that is all we know. And your understanding will

:25:26.:25:35.

be? There has been a certain amount of leaking, so I think it is going

:25:36.:25:42.

to be don't ask, don't tell, so don't ask them, and you want to know

:25:43.:25:46.

about it. What you make of that? Shabby, dirty and shameful, I think.

:25:47.:25:51.

And what about you? The Church of England was looking for leadership

:25:52.:25:55.

from the house of Bishops, and if that is what they have decided to

:25:56.:26:01.

do, then it is just they have avoided all possibility. And we can

:26:02.:26:06.

both agree on that, both sides of the debate agree that that is

:26:07.:26:09.

failure from our leadership. What would you like to see? I would like

:26:10.:26:13.

to see that as a Christian church following Christ we would be putting

:26:14.:26:16.

forward a positive view of marriage being between one man and one woman

:26:17.:26:19.

for life, talking about how wonderful that is as a way to

:26:20.:26:24.

flourish of individuals and for society. So you are quite clear

:26:25.:26:29.

about this. You are not in favour of gay marriage per se, and not in

:26:30.:26:32.

favour of gay marriage in the church, but if you had to have gay

:26:33.:26:35.

marriage in the church, you would only have it if it was celibate? I

:26:36.:26:39.

don't think you can have a celibate gay marriage. I think that God is

:26:40.:26:47.

very clear in the word in the Bible, Jesus himself as he was asked

:26:48.:26:51.

questions about sexuality referred back to Genesis, referred back to

:26:52.:26:55.

the teaching of the Judaeo-Christian worldview, which is that marriage is

:26:56.:27:00.

between one man and one woman for life. So you share a place in the

:27:01.:27:04.

Church of England with someone who actually doesn't believe... That I

:27:05.:27:10.

married? That you should be gay in the first place, but no, not that

:27:11.:27:15.

you are married. I think she would want all gay and lesbian people to

:27:16.:27:20.

be celibate, and wouldn't mess necessarily approve our

:27:21.:27:23.

relationships. There is within the Church of England quite a lot of

:27:24.:27:29.

diversity around the sexuality and theology of marriage, and one of the

:27:30.:27:32.

problems is that the bishops if they have done what rumour says they have

:27:33.:27:36.

done are not acknowledging that diversity of opinion, and that

:27:37.:27:39.

diversity that is reflected in amongst themselves which is why they

:27:40.:27:42.

have not been able to show proper leadership. Andrew is in a gay

:27:43.:27:47.

marriage, he is a member of the clergy. And he is not celibate, so

:27:48.:27:54.

therefore, is he a sinner? I think we are all sinners, that is the

:27:55.:27:58.

teaching of the church, that all of us are sinners. But as far as you're

:27:59.:28:03.

concerned, Jesus does not promote or believe in the idea of

:28:04.:28:10.

homosexuality? Yes, absolutely, we are all sinners. And how can you

:28:11.:28:13.

remain in the Church of England? Surely in a way you are living a

:28:14.:28:18.

lie? There has always been legitimate theological debate on

:28:19.:28:22.

this, and the most recent survey in YouGov said the largest majority of

:28:23.:28:26.

Anglicans is now in favour of supporting same-sex marriage...

:28:27.:28:31.

That's not quite... Can I finish? The report is clear that they are

:28:32.:28:36.

not people who are necessarily part of the church... One part was those

:28:37.:28:43.

self identifying as Anglicans, supporting gay relationship, and

:28:44.:28:46.

then there are specifically those who attended church, those who

:28:47.:28:50.

attended also said they supported same-sex relationships, so can I

:28:51.:28:54.

finish? The reason we stay in the Church of England is because we are

:28:55.:28:58.

faithful Anglicans, and this is our church, and I would like to see a

:28:59.:29:03.

church in which there was a mixed economy, where people like me are

:29:04.:29:06.

free to hold the beliefs that we have, to celebrate the relationships

:29:07.:29:11.

of straight people and gay people, and people like news -- Susie are

:29:12.:29:19.

welcome to stay, to. Would you go to a service conducted by Andrew? I

:29:20.:29:24.

can't imagine a situation in which I would, no. And yet why, he is a

:29:25.:29:30.

minister in your church. He is living contrary to the teaching of

:29:31.:29:33.

the church as well as the teaching of the Bible. Would it not be more

:29:34.:29:39.

honest for you to change church? No, I am an Anglican and I have been an

:29:40.:29:43.

Anglican for 30 years. Why should I leave my church? The Church of

:29:44.:29:46.

England is a broad church. One of the problems at the moment is there

:29:47.:29:51.

is a done I'll of the diversity of the church. So you can't be

:29:52.:29:57.

honest... I am honest, I am married and never body knows I am married.

:29:58.:30:00.

The bishops cannot be honest about the division berries within their

:30:01.:30:04.

own ranks on this issue. I think it is difficult for me to hear you say

:30:05.:30:10.

what it means to be Anglican. If we look at the founding documents of

:30:11.:30:13.

the Anglican Church, if we look at our laws, if we look at the vast

:30:14.:30:18.

majority of the Anglican Communion, they are all lined up absolutely to

:30:19.:30:24.

say that marriage is between one man and one woman for life, because that

:30:25.:30:28.

is what God teaches, and that is what gives a life of flourishing...

:30:29.:30:33.

Even if I accepted that it was inappropriate to be married, which I

:30:34.:30:37.

don't, this is one aspect of the whole of my personality and the

:30:38.:30:40.

whole of my life and ministry, and that does not negate my theological

:30:41.:30:45.

understanding of what it is to be the member of the Church of England

:30:46.:30:48.

and the reasons why I am there. I would like you both to pause now,

:30:49.:30:50.

thank you very much indeed. And we'll be continuing this

:30:51.:30:53.

discussion on Facebook live via the BBC Newsnight Facebook page

:30:54.:30:55.

right after we come off air, and you'll also be able

:30:56.:30:58.

to put your questions to our two The long awaited sequel

:30:59.:31:01.

to Trainspotting opens The world premiere in Edinburgh

:31:02.:31:04.

on Sunday saw Renton, Sickboy, Begbie and Spud stravaiging down

:31:05.:31:09.

the orange Trainspotting carpet The original 1996 film

:31:10.:31:11.

was a raw, searing, drug- ridden ride, as much

:31:12.:31:17.

about desperation as exuberance that As we get ready to meet

:31:18.:31:19.

the friends again, older, more raddled and certainly not

:31:20.:31:26.

wiser, what was it that made Trainspotting

:31:27.:31:28.

an overnight sensation? This report contains violence,

:31:29.:31:30.

flashing lights and very I'm going to start with

:31:31.:31:33.

Trainspotting, first because it is an unusual powerful

:31:34.:31:45.

and impressive film, and second because it will probably

:31:46.:31:48.

cause a lot of fuss. I think it's a great tragedy that

:31:49.:31:53.

young people are going to be Young people may be influenced

:31:54.:31:56.

to experiment with hard drugs. Choose fixed interest

:31:57.:32:04.

mortgage repayments. With a dialogue largely made up

:32:05.:32:05.

of short words beginning with F, S and C, and much injected,

:32:06.:32:11.

it accused of being at best nonjudgemental and at worst

:32:12.:32:14.

endorsing heroin use. It is primarily a youth

:32:15.:32:20.

book, and a youth movie. Because I would rather be, kind of,

:32:21.:32:23.

on drugs in a bedsit in my 20s than I would be sailing around

:32:24.:32:27.

the Bay of Biscay in a yacht Trainspotting exploded

:32:28.:32:30.

onto the screen. There has never been

:32:31.:32:40.

anything like it. It was an anthem for youth,

:32:41.:32:44.

an exhilarating, defiant screen. It was about friendship

:32:45.:32:49.

and belonging, pain and loss, laced with the blackest of humour,

:32:50.:32:51.

and it was about surviving But the outrage only served

:32:52.:32:53.

to reinforce the film's appeal, and make it one of the most lauded

:32:54.:33:03.

British movies of all time. The novel became this kind

:33:04.:33:06.

of classic great backpack novel that young people that were touring

:33:07.:33:13.

the world wanted to own and have, and it was like going back

:33:14.:33:16.

to the 60s and 70s where an LP or an album said something

:33:17.:33:19.

about your identity. Like Kerouac in the 50s,

:33:20.:33:24.

but for that generation it was Trainspotting,

:33:25.:33:29.

that was the one you would have in your bag as you were

:33:30.:33:31.

travelling, whatever. If I'm prepared to take

:33:32.:33:33.

a chance, I might just get Witty, adventurous,

:33:34.:33:36.

passionate, loving, loyal. A little bit crazy,

:33:37.:33:40.

a little bit mad. It came along at

:33:41.:33:46.

the exact right time. You know, I think every generation

:33:47.:33:51.

has its music and has its movie, and Trainspotting just was that

:33:52.:33:58.

movie, and it came at a time that Britpop had really

:33:59.:34:03.

started to explode, and it was like a marriage

:34:04.:34:09.

made in heaven. The other thing that can't be

:34:10.:34:18.

separated from the screenplay or the acting in Trainspotting

:34:19.:34:20.

is the soundtrack. It was such a banging

:34:21.:34:22.

soundtrack for that film. Again, we never really had any

:34:23.:34:30.

money, so it was basically asking Well, I think Iggy Pop was the only

:34:31.:34:34.

one we had to pay for, really. I think he was very pleased to be

:34:35.:34:45.

mentioned in the book and referenced, and he realy liked

:34:46.:34:50.

the book, said he was quite favourable to help us

:34:51.:34:55.

out as well, you know. Danny had the relationship

:34:56.:34:59.

with Leftfield and Underworld through Shallow Grave,

:35:00.:35:02.

and I knew people like Primal Scream and Blur

:35:03.:35:04.

and Jarvis Cocker and all that. Much different the second

:35:05.:35:17.

time around, we are kind The last 15 years, everybody has

:35:18.:35:19.

been, if you do Trainspotting 2, One of the funny thing is for me

:35:20.:35:23.

about Trainspotting was that Edinburgh people saw

:35:24.:35:30.

Glasgow as no mean city, in the nation's capital,

:35:31.:35:32.

the Athens of the North, and behind the elegant

:35:33.:35:35.

Georgian facades and douce suburbs was a fetid,

:35:36.:35:37.

chaotic otherworld of drug-addled That lassie got glassed,

:35:38.:35:39.

and no cunt leaves here till we find The one that really resonated for me

:35:40.:35:52.

was the character that became Begbie, because every Scottish

:35:53.:36:04.

working-class housing scheme has a sociopath that you are more

:36:05.:36:07.

scared than the enemy. You go to away games

:36:08.:36:12.

at the football, and you are more scared of the guys on the train

:36:13.:36:15.

than the guys you will meet There are two parallel Edinburghs,

:36:16.:36:18.

there is the Edinburgh that is about the festival

:36:19.:36:22.

and the Scotsman evening news, and a blocked drain in Morningside

:36:23.:36:28.

and all that, and the Dutch elm disease that will transform Princes

:36:29.:36:31.

Street and how horrible verses. disease that will transform Princes

:36:32.:36:41.

Street and how horrible this is. Whereas you had this

:36:42.:36:43.

massive HIV epidemic, the explosion in heroin

:36:44.:36:45.

which was all to do with mass unemployment basically,

:36:46.:36:48.

and people who worked in traditional industries no longer

:36:49.:36:50.

having anything to do. So the drugs came in,

:36:51.:36:51.

and they won by default, You are in a world that has

:36:52.:36:54.

education opportunities, travel opportunities,

:36:55.:37:00.

cultural opportunities, If you are going to take

:37:01.:37:01.

something like heroin, you're going to flirt with it,

:37:02.:37:06.

it is not a serious thing. But if you are going to take

:37:07.:37:09.

something like heroin and you've got none of these things,

:37:10.:37:13.

there is nothing else to go to, no plan B, nothing to jump off too,

:37:14.:37:16.

then you are going to be stuck with that relationship

:37:17.:37:19.

for a long time. It's probably not as consequential

:37:20.:37:21.

to have a heroin habit now. There are so many ways of treating

:37:22.:37:24.

it that there wasn't back then. Sick Boy, Begbie, Renton and Spud

:37:25.:37:32.

are back, and it's not You are the emotional

:37:33.:37:39.

heart of this film. That's very nice to hear you say

:37:40.:37:48.

that, but I think all... I haven't seen the finished version,

:37:49.:37:54.

but the version I saw, every character made me cry,

:37:55.:37:57.

and I was moved by every It's a really

:37:58.:37:59.

unexpectedly moving film. It's sort of not about

:38:00.:38:03.

recapturing something, but looking back on it,

:38:04.:38:10.

in a way, and I think all of the characters are doing that,

:38:11.:38:13.

there is a sort of nostalgia for their use, for that time,

:38:14.:38:19.

and somehow John has managed to write in a little nostalgia

:38:20.:38:22.

for the movie itself, I don't know how he has done that,

:38:23.:38:24.

but it is very clever. We on the other hand

:38:25.:38:35.

are colonised by wankers. Can't even find a decent

:38:36.:38:54.

culture to be colonised by. I think that without putting too

:38:55.:38:57.

much weight on this, I think Trainspotting

:38:58.:38:59.

was the beginning of a reawakening of Scotland, of a Scotland

:39:00.:39:01.

on a new-found self-confidence, of a Scotland finding a voice,

:39:02.:39:05.

of a Scotland believing that it didn't need to repeat the tropes

:39:06.:39:07.

or the memes of other cultures, and it could speak

:39:08.:39:11.

profoundly in its own voice. But that's not all that changed

:39:12.:39:17.

in the last 20 years. Youth culture's been

:39:18.:39:21.

eradicated in Britain now. Because of the Internet,

:39:22.:39:23.

it doesn't get a chance to grow I think it is changing

:39:24.:39:28.

a little bit now. There are signs that it's coming

:39:29.:39:33.

back, like grime, and East London, South London has one of the few

:39:34.:39:40.

indigenous youth cultures to emerge in Britain in the last

:39:41.:39:43.

kind of ten or 15 years. I don't really believe that a book

:39:44.:39:46.

like Trainspotting would be For all sorts of reasons, I think

:39:47.:39:48.

because of the content of it, because it is in a relatively

:39:49.:39:58.

inaccessible Scottish vernacular. There are so many different reasons,

:39:59.:40:02.

both moral culture and commercial, that would conspire against a book

:40:03.:40:04.

like that getting For the millions who loved

:40:05.:40:07.

the book and then the film, and who have waited 20 years to find

:40:08.:40:31.

out what happened to them all, That's just about it before tonight.

:40:32.:40:49.

We were talking about the resignation of Tulip Siddiq. She

:40:50.:40:54.

Leca we said that she was in the Shadow Cabinet, she was actually a

:40:55.:40:58.

shadow minister. Apologies to anyone who thought she was promoted before

:40:59.:41:00.

she resigned. If these cold winter nights

:41:01.:41:01.

are making you gloomy, then perhaps snuggling up in front

:41:02.:41:05.

of Newsnight is not the answer. Research from Goldsmiths University

:41:06.:41:07.

suggests those who partake in naturism are happier

:41:08.:41:09.

with their bodies and happier

:41:10.:41:13.