Browse content similar to 26/01/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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To join hands, as we pick up that mantle of leadership once more. To | :00:09. | :00:17. | |
renew our special relationship, and to recommit ourselves to the | :00:18. | :00:19. | |
responsibility of leadership in the modern world. | :00:20. | :00:21. | |
"Haven't you noticed? Sometimes opposites attract." | :00:22. | :00:23. | |
So said Theresa May en-route to her meeting with Donald Trump. | :00:24. | :00:30. | |
She's been turning on the charm for senior Republicans this evening - | :00:31. | :00:33. | |
so how will she handle the president? | :00:34. | :00:34. | |
We'll hear from former Labour leader Ed Miliband. | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
On the eve of summit to discuss gay sex and the clergy, | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
we discuss the Church of England policy to pretend | :00:43. | :00:49. | |
Tomorrow, the long awaited sequel to Trainspotting opens | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
But what was it about that film that entranced a whole generation? | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
It is primarily a youth book, and a youth movie. | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
Because I would rather be, kind of, on drugs in a bedsit in my 20s | :00:59. | :01:04. | |
than I would be sailing around the Bay of Biscay in a yacht | :01:05. | :01:07. | |
Charming senior Republicans with a speech in Philadelphia | :01:08. | :01:26. | |
and stressing the historic ties between the UK and the US. | :01:27. | :01:29. | |
Her messages on leadership, free trade and shared values went | :01:30. | :01:31. | |
Tomorrow - the diplomacy might get trickier. | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
In the Commons before she left for Philadelphia, | :01:37. | :01:38. | |
politicians of all stripes were queuing up to offer her advice, | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
If she'd listened to the majority of them she would have a list | :01:42. | :01:51. | |
of grievances in her briefcase, everything from human rights | :01:52. | :01:53. | |
In fact, the new president has offered the hope that we might | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
have a closer relationship than over the last eight years - | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
after all, he wants a new trade deal and he's a big fan of Brexit. | :02:01. | :02:03. | |
Our diplomatic editor Mark Urban is here. | :02:04. | :02:08. | |
What was the tone of her speech? It was reaching out for lot of downing | :02:09. | :02:16. | |
-- a lot of people in Downing Street Sea as a big political opportunity | :02:17. | :02:22. | |
in the UK, but problematic as his reputation may be, his remarks are | :02:23. | :02:28. | |
favourable of the UK, and at the expense of Germany, President Obama | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
praised those countries so high in his last weeks in office, they | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
constituted an opportunity. Let's hear what she had to say. President | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
Trump's victory, achieved in defiance of all the pundits and the | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
polls, rooted not in the corridors of Washington but in the hopes and | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
aspirations of working men and women across this land. You are part of | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
this victory, in the Congress and the Senate, where you swept all | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
before you, secured with great effort and achieved with an | :03:02. | :03:03. | |
important message of national renewal. And because of this, | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
because of what you have done together, the cause of that great | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
victory that you have won, America can be stronger, greater and more | :03:15. | :03:21. | |
confident in the years ahead. Fascinatingly there, not too many | :03:22. | :03:24. | |
mentions of President Trump, but addressing the congressmen and women | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
and senators directly a few times, and mentions of Nato too. It is a | :03:30. | :03:36. | |
congressional do, this conclave, but one can see her acknowledging the | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
complexity of the way that power is dispensed in Washington, and | :03:41. | :03:43. | |
reaching out directly to those people and making her pitch to them | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
as well. Of course, President Trump tomorrow. She is meeting Donald | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
Trump tomorrow but one leader will not be next in line? It was supposed | :03:52. | :03:57. | |
to be happening next week, President Pena Nieto of Mexico was meant to | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
come, this would be the beginning of tough talk about trade and the wall. | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
All of those things but people have been asking, what will happen when | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
Trump sends one of these tweets? That is exactly what happened today. | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
He said they may as well not come if they are not prepared to pay for the | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
wall. A couple of hours later, in Mexico City, it was announced that | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
the meeting was. That wrong-footed the president for a while, he | :04:24. | :04:26. | |
appeared on live television saying that he would slap a 20% Harris on | :04:27. | :04:34. | |
Mexican imports -- tariff. Then people around him in the White House | :04:35. | :04:40. | |
moved back a bit, you had to put legal and other arrangements in | :04:41. | :04:44. | |
place. We are beginning to see the first signs of someone who has the | :04:45. | :04:50. | |
impulse to act like President Putin, dealing with the constitutions of | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
the democracy. But, Theresa May is in there tomorrow. There is an | :04:57. | :05:03. | |
aspect where people understand that President Obama was not that great | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
for Britain in some ways, and this is a new opportunity to define, as | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
she said, redefine, a special relationship. | :05:12. | :05:12. | |
Until last week, there was a president widely esteemed | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
in Britain who didn't exactly return the love. | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
He removed Winston Churchill's bust from the Oval Office, couldn't | :05:21. | :05:23. | |
forget the treatment his grandfather received in Kenya and plainly | :05:24. | :05:25. | |
considered Germany a more important ally than Britain. | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
As I reflect back over the last eight years, | :05:31. | :05:32. | |
I could not ask for a steadier or more reliable partner | :05:33. | :05:35. | |
Now, of course, there's a president who alarms or appals | :05:36. | :05:42. | |
a great many Britons, but who, in marked contrast | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
to Obama, is seeing Theresa May ahead of all other foreign leaders, | :05:47. | :05:53. | |
and, it seems, couldn't be more supportive of Brexit. | :05:54. | :05:56. | |
He doesn't seem to like the European Union. | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
He seems to be encouraging other people to follow our example | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
Now, a lot of people in the United Kingdom consider these | :06:06. | :06:11. | |
things to be terrible negatives, but it does give Theresa May some | :06:12. | :06:14. | |
It was Palmerston, and who better for this age in which we seem to be | :06:15. | :06:24. | |
turning to 19th-century style jostling nationalisms. | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
He said, Britain has no eternal allies and no eternal enemies. | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
So, if it's in Britain's vital interest to cosy up | :06:33. | :06:39. | |
The question is of course whether it's also in the interests | :06:40. | :06:45. | |
This is a protectionist president, so any idea that he's | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
We stand to lose our environmental protections, our food standards, | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
our food assurances, and this will be a Trojan | :06:57. | :06:59. | |
Britain can of course offer Trump something back in some areas. | :07:00. | :07:05. | |
If the Donald accuses many Nato allies of being freeloaders, | :07:06. | :07:07. | |
that's not so different to long-held a Downing Street views. | :07:08. | :07:10. | |
Instead of planning expensive new headquarters or dreaming | :07:11. | :07:19. | |
of a European army, what Europe needs to do now is to spend | :07:20. | :07:22. | |
That is the best possible approach to the Trump presidency. | :07:23. | :07:29. | |
But on so many questions, from policy towards Israel | :07:30. | :07:31. | |
to torture, Putin or withdrawal of funding from the UN, Britain | :07:32. | :07:34. | |
How to break the news to Trump gently? | :07:35. | :07:43. | |
This is not going to be easy for her. | :07:44. | :07:45. | |
She's got to steer between not behaving like a British poodle | :07:46. | :07:48. | |
to the American president, but at the same time, | :07:49. | :07:50. | |
creating a atmosphere in which, as she said herself, | :07:51. | :07:52. | |
you can invest new meaning in the special relationship. | :07:53. | :08:04. | |
These days, and we saw this during the last visit | :08:05. | :08:07. | |
here by the Chinese president, diplomacy as demanded by many | :08:08. | :08:09. | |
on Twitter or even from the floor of the House of Commons | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
would involve lecturing a foreign leader on why their values | :08:13. | :08:15. | |
Unsurprisingly, foreign leaders are no keener on that than any | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
Tonight, Theresa May arrived in America, telling reporters | :08:22. | :08:30. | |
frankly that any resumption of CIA "enhanced interrogation" | :08:31. | :08:33. | |
With suggestions the two leaders may give a joint news | :08:34. | :08:41. | |
conference tomorrow, the Prime Minister's balancing act | :08:42. | :08:43. | |
At least, though, she can start on the basis that, | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
since his election, Donald Trump has saved some of his kindest words | :08:49. | :08:51. | |
for Britain, and has moved that famous bust of Churchill back | :08:52. | :08:53. | |
In a moment, we'll speak to the former Labour Leader Ed Miliband. | :08:54. | :09:06. | |
But first - the Daily Telegraph columnist Tim Stanley is with us. | :09:07. | :09:09. | |
Good evening. Hello. What should Theresa May do tomorrow, should she | :09:10. | :09:20. | |
go in all guns blazing? I think what she will do is what she is going to | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
be doing anyway, saying one thing publicly and another privately. | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
Publicly, she has started on a strong foot saying I'm with you, not | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
just strategically but there is a philosophical connection between us. | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
She rolled out lavish praise. Privately, I would not be surprised | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
if she says to him firstly, drop the language about torture. Aside from | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
Britain believing it immoral, illegal and wrong, it is a | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
propaganda coup for the enemy. I expect that she will push hard on | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
America continuing to be the leading force within Nato. I suspect what we | :09:55. | :10:00. | |
have seen here, publicly, is not necessarily the tone behind closed | :10:01. | :10:03. | |
doors. In that speech tonight she mentioned Nato eight times, she | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
has strong signals, but we know that Donald Trump does not like that and | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
is capable of turning around and saying something less than | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
diplomatic? We do not know that yet. We are testing Trump is a president, | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
working out of what he says publicly is what he gets on with and does. | :10:23. | :10:28. | |
Torture is an example. In the press, we need to learn to distinguish what | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
he is saying when he is in reality television mode, when he speaks | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
casually, and what he does. When it comes to torture, the new head of | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
the CIA says that he is against it, the head of defence is against it, | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
heads of Republicans in Congress are against it. It is unlikely to | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
happen, let's hope what he says is not what happens. And Theresa May | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
has a huge list of grievances, is it your personal view that trumping all | :10:56. | :11:02. | |
else... Not unintentional pun! There is this idea that Britain will get a | :11:03. | :11:08. | |
good trade deal, does that kick everything else out the water? No, | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
that is what she leads on and once but she has two big about what he | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
wants. He needs us as much as we need him? Yes. He is selling himself | :11:18. | :11:25. | |
as a great businessman but nobody ready wants to speak to him right | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
now except the British, they are the most enthusiasts it, except perhaps | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
the Israelis. Also, the Association with Britain carries credibility | :11:35. | :11:40. | |
when it comes to global strategy, he can reassert that he is going to | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
beat Nato and this is his chance to reassure the world. That is what | :11:45. | :11:47. | |
Britain provides in a special relationship. Did you get that | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
sense, although the inauguration was razzmatazz, did you get a sense that | :11:53. | :11:58. | |
there was an undertow of this? That something has happened since the | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
inauguration, there is a different mood? I don't, rhetorically he is | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
sticking with appeasing his base. He has taken the view that he has won | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
by getting enough states to back me, just. I want to cling on to those | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
people so that four years I scraped through again, rather than appealing | :12:16. | :12:21. | |
to global leadership. It is clearly America first, is it necessarily | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
Britain second? No, I think that there is a correlation between what | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
Trump wants to achieve and what we want to achieve. When it comes to | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
combating Islamist terrorism, and trade. And this new philosophy. Six | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
months ago or so, Britain was a pariah in the world, we cut | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
ourselves off from Europe and we had a president who did not really like | :12:43. | :12:45. | |
us and we went to the back of the queue. Suddenly, we are best mates | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
with the leader of the world which is fantastic. Thank you. | :12:50. | :12:50. | |
Isn't it great that the British prime ministers first in line with | :12:51. | :12:59. | |
the new leader of the free world? Not with Donald Trump! I think that | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
Tim is underestimating what has happened this week in him becoming | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
president, banning refugees, endorsing torture... Hang on, | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
endorsing torture...? It is dizzying, starting a trade war with | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
Mexico today, listing sanctions on Saturday... This is not a normal | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
time. Her speech was a perfectly decent one, if it had been normal | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
times. But to align yourself so closely with his project? Which is | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
what she did. I think that was a mistake. If Ed Miliband was Prime | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
Minister, would you have gone? And, speaking to senior Republicans, | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
would... I probably would not have been speaking to senior Republicans! | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
What would your line have been? Let me put it this way, I prefer Angela | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
Merkel to Theresa May in how this is being handled. Think about what | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
Angela Merkel did the day after the presidential election. She said that | :13:57. | :13:59. | |
a partnership with America is important but on the basis of | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
particular norms and values, on human rights, commitment to equality | :14:04. | :14:06. | |
and things which are important. You don't take Tim Stanley's point? This | :14:07. | :14:15. | |
is mood music for a particular audience? Signals matter, Trump only | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
respects strength, and they matter to a reputation around the world. | :14:20. | :14:23. | |
Let me take issue with one thing in that film, and what Tim said, | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
President Obama... What is it about this sudden denigration of President | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
Obama? As Leader of the Opposition, are used to think that he has a | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
fantastic relationship with President Obama, David Cameron. I | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
was jealous! Suddenly, President Obama is cast as the enemy of | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
Britain... But let's be clear, during that debate on the EU | :14:47. | :14:49. | |
referendum, Barack Obama said quite clearly that there would be no | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
special treatment. But he took a position on Brexit, I think it was a | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
bad thing or a good thing, personally he said we need a strong | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
Europe and Britain would make Europe stronger. I think the notion that we | :15:04. | :15:06. | |
had an enemy in the White House and now we have a friend, on this trade | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
deal point, it is really important, people may not realise but those | :15:12. | :15:14. | |
tariffs we have with the USA are incredibly low already. What worries | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
me about this idea of a trade deal is that it goes to nontariff | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
barriers. That means regulation. Around health care, the environment, | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
employee rights. They have less regulation than us. So, I think this | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
trade deal is really dangerous, it's a Trojan horse where we seem to be | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
locking ourselves in Donald Trump's boot. We actually haven't, Theresa | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
May was quite careful. I think it is right what Mark said, when it comes | :15:43. | :15:49. | |
to going and lecturing other people, we all have memories. We have | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
memories of Gordon Brown going to China and expecting to hear great | :15:54. | :15:56. | |
things about liberty and freedom in China, was that behind closed doors | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
gritter muck it was not in public. I thought that you would mention Tony | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
Blair and George Bush. That ended pretty badly... There is a lesson | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
about that. Our alliances with America should be based on values | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
and those what we hold in common, not simply on the idea that we want | :16:14. | :16:16. | |
to be at the front of a notional queue. But the idea that you | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
ideological agree with every leader around the world caused nonsense. | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
You need to make priorities. I wonder if what you do, you say, if | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
you are going to ban Muslims from certain countries, we will not work | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
together. If you consider torture, we will not work together. If you | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
deny climate change, we went work together. Really? I think it is | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
time, this is about self-interest. Let me be clear, it is | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
self-interest, that we are strong defending climate change. It is in | :16:47. | :17:00. | |
our interests to defend a two state solution for Israel and Palestine, | :17:01. | :17:02. | |
Donald Trump wants to overturn it it seems. There were good notes in | :17:03. | :17:05. | |
Theresa May's speech tonight, she had to mention those things but that | :17:06. | :17:07. | |
was not the main thrust of the speech. Britain voted for Brexit, | :17:08. | :17:09. | |
Donald Trump supports it... There is one point of agreement. But he wants | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
Nigel Farage to be ambassador. Goodness me! What hinges on this | :17:14. | :17:20. | |
trade deal... If you think it is a get out of jail card for any | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
economic problems you might get for Brexit, maybe you think it is worth | :17:25. | :17:27. | |
us locking ourselves in the boot. I am very sceptical and let's not | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
forget, he is a protectionist. They are very sceptical of trade Guilds | :17:32. | :17:34. | |
and he's about to impose tariffs on Mexico. -- trade Guilds. Let's go | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
back to that question and conversation about torture. You said | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
it would be dependent on the chief and CIA... If you were Prime | :17:46. | :17:48. | |
Minister, would you, at this moment, allow British agents to share | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
intelligence with American agents, if there was any chance of torture? | :17:53. | :17:58. | |
No, we can't beat complicit in torture, absolutely not. We need | :17:59. | :18:07. | |
strong words and signals. Our reputation around the world matters. | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
Foreign leaders will be looking at what other faults tonight. Let's | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
talk a little bit again about Brexit and labour, Labour seems to be in | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
disarray again, we have had eight resignation from the Shadow Cabinet. | :18:25. | :18:30. | |
Will there ever be any kind of peace within Labour when there are two | :18:31. | :18:33. | |
distinct positions on Brexit. I'm not sure it is about peace, Labour | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
is wrestling with the difficult issue which is that we represent | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
lots of Remain voters and Leave voters. I think we should accept | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
that the exit is going to happen, but we should hold the Government to | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
account for the kind of deal, and let me just say this one point, | :18:54. | :18:56. | |
because people may not have focused on this. The vote and amendments | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
that we have to this article 50 bill matter, and a matter for this reason | :19:02. | :19:04. | |
most of all. What kind of odour we get at the end? Do we get a vote | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
which is take it or leave it, either for light of the European Union | :19:10. | :19:12. | |
without a deal, or do we get a vote that is meaningful, which is what | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
Keir Starmer and Jeremy Corbyn and others are pushing for, and they are | :19:18. | :19:20. | |
right to do so. Ed Miliband, thank you very much. | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn's doesn't want his MPs to block | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
Trouble is - not all his MPs are playing along with that plan. | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
I am joined by our political editor Nick Watt. | :19:34. | :19:35. | |
It will be a clear decision that we want all of our MPs | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
to support the Article 50 vote when it comes up next week. | :19:40. | :19:41. | |
But no commitment to a three line whip? | :19:42. | :19:43. | |
My constituents voted to remain in the European Union. | :19:44. | :19:49. | |
I am leaning towards voting against Article 50 because I'm | :19:50. | :19:51. | |
And if I have to resign my shadow ministerial position | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
because of the stance I take, it would be unfortunate, | :19:56. | :19:57. | |
but I am here as the MP for Hampstead and Kilburn. | :19:58. | :20:03. | |
I'm joined now by our political editor Nick Watt and the MPs | :20:04. | :20:10. | |
Amsterdam Kilburn did indeed resign. That's right, so Jeremy Corbyn faced | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
a mini rebellion today, at one point it looked like it might reach into | :20:15. | :20:17. | |
his inner circle of supporters with thoughts that Clive Lewis, the | :20:18. | :20:20. | |
Shadow Business Secretary, might resign, but in the end he stayed | :20:21. | :20:22. | |
put, and tulips -- Tulip Siddiq said the she would | :20:23. | :20:39. | |
go. And the transport Minister has told the Cambridge News that he will | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
be standing by his constituents, 75% of whom voted Remain, and he will | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
live with the consequences. So what does this mean for Labour? This is a | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
rare rebellion where the leadership has some sympathy with the rebels, | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
and that is not just because Jeremy Corbyn campaigned to remain in the | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
European Union, though not with much enthusiasm, but this says that they | :21:03. | :21:09. | |
are in eight unique position, two thirds of voters supported Remain, | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
but two thirds of Labour MPs represent constituents that voted | :21:15. | :21:22. | |
Leave, so there is talk about how opinion was divided, and we can | :21:23. | :21:28. | |
expect some defying of the leadership, but it may not take the | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
traditional form of the sack, and it shows a dilemma for a party that is | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
struggling to come to terms with Brexit Britain. Thank you very much | :21:38. | :21:39. | |
indeed. Now, in this age of alternative | :21:40. | :21:41. | |
facts and fake news, we thought it might be useful to provide | :21:42. | :21:44. | |
you with something rather more reliable - | :21:45. | :21:46. | |
a non-fake fact of the day. We've just been talking | :21:47. | :21:48. | |
about Tulip Siddiq's resignation from the front bench | :21:49. | :21:50. | |
of the Labour Party, so that she could vote | :21:51. | :21:53. | |
against Article 50 - in line with her constituency's big | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
Remain vote, and perhaps But that's not something that should | :21:59. | :22:00. | |
bother most Labour MPs. Only one in three of them | :22:01. | :22:06. | |
are in constituencies estimated And more than half of those MPs | :22:07. | :22:08. | |
have a majority greater than 10,000. In other words, most Labour MPs can | :22:09. | :22:20. | |
vote for Article 50 without worrying about misrepresenting | :22:21. | :22:23. | |
their constituencies - and most of those that can't | :22:24. | :22:24. | |
probably don't need to worry too much about losing | :22:25. | :22:27. | |
their seats over it. Tomorrow the Church of England | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
is likely to come up with a policy for sexual relationships among gay | :22:33. | :22:35. | |
clergy which as far as we understand will operate on the basis | :22:36. | :22:38. | |
of 'don't ask don't tell'.. In other words 'what the eye doesn't | :22:39. | :22:40. | |
see the heart doesn't grieve'. In many ways, the Church of | :22:41. | :22:52. | |
England's attitude to sexuality has changed radically in the last | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
century, and in many others it has stayed exactly the same. Today, the | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
church is fond of highlighting its important role in the Wolfenden | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
report in 1957 which was key to the partial decriminalisation of, | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
sexuality. But although several bishops gave public support to the | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
new law in 1967, it was not necessary evidence of a liberal | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
attitude. The then Archbishop of Canterbury Michael Ramsey stated, | :23:22. | :23:27. | |
there will be no declaring that homosexual practices are a correct | :23:28. | :23:34. | |
use of sex. A report in 1991 cemented the church is modern issues | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
toward sexuality, reinforcing Christian attitudes, and stated that | :23:39. | :23:41. | |
engaging in gay activity, or as they called it, homophile activity, was | :23:42. | :23:54. | |
not part of the clergy. But they also said, if we are faithful to our | :23:55. | :24:03. | |
Lord then disagreement of the proper expression of homosexual love will | :24:04. | :24:05. | |
never be a rejection of the homosexual person. The Lambeth | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
conference reaffirmed the ban on the blessing of same-sex couples. When | :24:10. | :24:16. | |
civil partnerships were legalised in 2004, the house of Bishops declared | :24:17. | :24:19. | |
this wasn't incompatible with holy orders, again on the condition of | :24:20. | :24:25. | |
celibacy. Gay marriage was legalised in 2013, creating the so-called | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
quadruple lock which made it illegal for the Church of England to perform | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
same-sex marriage is. The Pilling report of the following year stopped | :24:36. | :24:38. | |
short of endorsing same-sex marriage, but recommended that the | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
church conduct ceremonies that would be marriages in all but name. In | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
response, the house of Bishops called for a process of shared | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
conversations in a divided church. The results of that two-year process | :24:52. | :24:53. | |
will be unveiled tomorrow. Joining us in the studio | :24:54. | :24:55. | |
to discuss this further are Father Andrew Foreshew-Cain, | :24:56. | :24:58. | |
Vicar of St Mary and All Souls Church in Kilburn and Susie Leafe, | :24:59. | :25:01. | |
Director of Reform, an Evangelical | :25:02. | :25:03. | |
Anglican Organisation Good evening to you both. What is | :25:04. | :25:13. | |
the proposal to be? We really don't know. You are both in the Senedd. | :25:14. | :25:20. | |
The house of Bishops will make a statement tomorrow. The paper will | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
be released tomorrow, that is all we know. And your understanding will | :25:26. | :25:35. | |
be? There has been a certain amount of leaking, so I think it is going | :25:36. | :25:42. | |
to be don't ask, don't tell, so don't ask them, and you want to know | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
about it. What you make of that? Shabby, dirty and shameful, I think. | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
And what about you? The Church of England was looking for leadership | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
from the house of Bishops, and if that is what they have decided to | :25:56. | :26:01. | |
do, then it is just they have avoided all possibility. And we can | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
both agree on that, both sides of the debate agree that that is | :26:07. | :26:09. | |
failure from our leadership. What would you like to see? I would like | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
to see that as a Christian church following Christ we would be putting | :26:14. | :26:16. | |
forward a positive view of marriage being between one man and one woman | :26:17. | :26:19. | |
for life, talking about how wonderful that is as a way to | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
flourish of individuals and for society. So you are quite clear | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
about this. You are not in favour of gay marriage per se, and not in | :26:30. | :26:32. | |
favour of gay marriage in the church, but if you had to have gay | :26:33. | :26:35. | |
marriage in the church, you would only have it if it was celibate? I | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
don't think you can have a celibate gay marriage. I think that God is | :26:40. | :26:47. | |
very clear in the word in the Bible, Jesus himself as he was asked | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
questions about sexuality referred back to Genesis, referred back to | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
the teaching of the Judaeo-Christian worldview, which is that marriage is | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
between one man and one woman for life. So you share a place in the | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
Church of England with someone who actually doesn't believe... That I | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
married? That you should be gay in the first place, but no, not that | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
you are married. I think she would want all gay and lesbian people to | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
be celibate, and wouldn't mess necessarily approve our | :27:21. | :27:23. | |
relationships. There is within the Church of England quite a lot of | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
diversity around the sexuality and theology of marriage, and one of the | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
problems is that the bishops if they have done what rumour says they have | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
done are not acknowledging that diversity of opinion, and that | :27:37. | :27:39. | |
diversity that is reflected in amongst themselves which is why they | :27:40. | :27:42. | |
have not been able to show proper leadership. Andrew is in a gay | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
marriage, he is a member of the clergy. And he is not celibate, so | :27:48. | :27:54. | |
therefore, is he a sinner? I think we are all sinners, that is the | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
teaching of the church, that all of us are sinners. But as far as you're | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
concerned, Jesus does not promote or believe in the idea of | :28:04. | :28:10. | |
homosexuality? Yes, absolutely, we are all sinners. And how can you | :28:11. | :28:13. | |
remain in the Church of England? Surely in a way you are living a | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
lie? There has always been legitimate theological debate on | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
this, and the most recent survey in YouGov said the largest majority of | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
Anglicans is now in favour of supporting same-sex marriage... | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
That's not quite... Can I finish? The report is clear that they are | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
not people who are necessarily part of the church... One part was those | :28:37. | :28:43. | |
self identifying as Anglicans, supporting gay relationship, and | :28:44. | :28:46. | |
then there are specifically those who attended church, those who | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
attended also said they supported same-sex relationships, so can I | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
finish? The reason we stay in the Church of England is because we are | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
faithful Anglicans, and this is our church, and I would like to see a | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
church in which there was a mixed economy, where people like me are | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
free to hold the beliefs that we have, to celebrate the relationships | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
of straight people and gay people, and people like news -- Susie are | :29:12. | :29:19. | |
welcome to stay, to. Would you go to a service conducted by Andrew? I | :29:20. | :29:24. | |
can't imagine a situation in which I would, no. And yet why, he is a | :29:25. | :29:30. | |
minister in your church. He is living contrary to the teaching of | :29:31. | :29:33. | |
the church as well as the teaching of the Bible. Would it not be more | :29:34. | :29:39. | |
honest for you to change church? No, I am an Anglican and I have been an | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
Anglican for 30 years. Why should I leave my church? The Church of | :29:44. | :29:46. | |
England is a broad church. One of the problems at the moment is there | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
is a done I'll of the diversity of the church. So you can't be | :29:52. | :29:57. | |
honest... I am honest, I am married and never body knows I am married. | :29:58. | :30:00. | |
The bishops cannot be honest about the division berries within their | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
own ranks on this issue. I think it is difficult for me to hear you say | :30:05. | :30:10. | |
what it means to be Anglican. If we look at the founding documents of | :30:11. | :30:13. | |
the Anglican Church, if we look at our laws, if we look at the vast | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
majority of the Anglican Communion, they are all lined up absolutely to | :30:19. | :30:24. | |
say that marriage is between one man and one woman for life, because that | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
is what God teaches, and that is what gives a life of flourishing... | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
Even if I accepted that it was inappropriate to be married, which I | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
don't, this is one aspect of the whole of my personality and the | :30:38. | :30:40. | |
whole of my life and ministry, and that does not negate my theological | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
understanding of what it is to be the member of the Church of England | :30:46. | :30:48. | |
and the reasons why I am there. I would like you both to pause now, | :30:49. | :30:50. | |
thank you very much indeed. And we'll be continuing this | :30:51. | :30:53. | |
discussion on Facebook live via the BBC Newsnight Facebook page | :30:54. | :30:55. | |
right after we come off air, and you'll also be able | :30:56. | :30:58. | |
to put your questions to our two The long awaited sequel | :30:59. | :31:01. | |
to Trainspotting opens The world premiere in Edinburgh | :31:02. | :31:04. | |
on Sunday saw Renton, Sickboy, Begbie and Spud stravaiging down | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
the orange Trainspotting carpet The original 1996 film | :31:10. | :31:11. | |
was a raw, searing, drug- ridden ride, as much | :31:12. | :31:17. | |
about desperation as exuberance that As we get ready to meet | :31:18. | :31:19. | |
the friends again, older, more raddled and certainly not | :31:20. | :31:26. | |
wiser, what was it that made Trainspotting | :31:27. | :31:28. | |
an overnight sensation? This report contains violence, | :31:29. | :31:30. | |
flashing lights and very I'm going to start with | :31:31. | :31:33. | |
Trainspotting, first because it is an unusual powerful | :31:34. | :31:45. | |
and impressive film, and second because it will probably | :31:46. | :31:48. | |
cause a lot of fuss. I think it's a great tragedy that | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
young people are going to be Young people may be influenced | :31:54. | :31:56. | |
to experiment with hard drugs. Choose fixed interest | :31:57. | :32:04. | |
mortgage repayments. With a dialogue largely made up | :32:05. | :32:05. | |
of short words beginning with F, S and C, and much injected, | :32:06. | :32:11. | |
it accused of being at best nonjudgemental and at worst | :32:12. | :32:14. | |
endorsing heroin use. It is primarily a youth | :32:15. | :32:20. | |
book, and a youth movie. Because I would rather be, kind of, | :32:21. | :32:23. | |
on drugs in a bedsit in my 20s than I would be sailing around | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
the Bay of Biscay in a yacht Trainspotting exploded | :32:28. | :32:30. | |
onto the screen. There has never been | :32:31. | :32:40. | |
anything like it. It was an anthem for youth, | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
an exhilarating, defiant screen. It was about friendship | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
and belonging, pain and loss, laced with the blackest of humour, | :32:50. | :32:51. | |
and it was about surviving But the outrage only served | :32:52. | :32:53. | |
to reinforce the film's appeal, and make it one of the most lauded | :32:54. | :33:03. | |
British movies of all time. The novel became this kind | :33:04. | :33:06. | |
of classic great backpack novel that young people that were touring | :33:07. | :33:13. | |
the world wanted to own and have, and it was like going back | :33:14. | :33:16. | |
to the 60s and 70s where an LP or an album said something | :33:17. | :33:19. | |
about your identity. Like Kerouac in the 50s, | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
but for that generation it was Trainspotting, | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
that was the one you would have in your bag as you were | :33:30. | :33:31. | |
travelling, whatever. If I'm prepared to take | :33:32. | :33:33. | |
a chance, I might just get Witty, adventurous, | :33:34. | :33:36. | |
passionate, loving, loyal. A little bit crazy, | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
a little bit mad. It came along at | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
the exact right time. You know, I think every generation | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
has its music and has its movie, and Trainspotting just was that | :33:52. | :33:58. | |
movie, and it came at a time that Britpop had really | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
started to explode, and it was like a marriage | :34:04. | :34:09. | |
made in heaven. The other thing that can't be | :34:10. | :34:18. | |
separated from the screenplay or the acting in Trainspotting | :34:19. | :34:20. | |
is the soundtrack. It was such a banging | :34:21. | :34:22. | |
soundtrack for that film. Again, we never really had any | :34:23. | :34:30. | |
money, so it was basically asking Well, I think Iggy Pop was the only | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
one we had to pay for, really. I think he was very pleased to be | :34:35. | :34:45. | |
mentioned in the book and referenced, and he realy liked | :34:46. | :34:50. | |
the book, said he was quite favourable to help us | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
out as well, you know. Danny had the relationship | :34:56. | :34:59. | |
with Leftfield and Underworld through Shallow Grave, | :35:00. | :35:02. | |
and I knew people like Primal Scream and Blur | :35:03. | :35:04. | |
and Jarvis Cocker and all that. Much different the second | :35:05. | :35:17. | |
time around, we are kind The last 15 years, everybody has | :35:18. | :35:19. | |
been, if you do Trainspotting 2, One of the funny thing is for me | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
about Trainspotting was that Edinburgh people saw | :35:24. | :35:30. | |
Glasgow as no mean city, in the nation's capital, | :35:31. | :35:32. | |
the Athens of the North, and behind the elegant | :35:33. | :35:35. | |
Georgian facades and douce suburbs was a fetid, | :35:36. | :35:37. | |
chaotic otherworld of drug-addled That lassie got glassed, | :35:38. | :35:39. | |
and no cunt leaves here till we find The one that really resonated for me | :35:40. | :35:52. | |
was the character that became Begbie, because every Scottish | :35:53. | :36:04. | |
working-class housing scheme has a sociopath that you are more | :36:05. | :36:07. | |
scared than the enemy. You go to away games | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
at the football, and you are more scared of the guys on the train | :36:13. | :36:15. | |
than the guys you will meet There are two parallel Edinburghs, | :36:16. | :36:18. | |
there is the Edinburgh that is about the festival | :36:19. | :36:22. | |
and the Scotsman evening news, and a blocked drain in Morningside | :36:23. | :36:28. | |
and all that, and the Dutch elm disease that will transform Princes | :36:29. | :36:31. | |
Street and how horrible verses. disease that will transform Princes | :36:32. | :36:41. | |
Street and how horrible this is. Whereas you had this | :36:42. | :36:43. | |
massive HIV epidemic, the explosion in heroin | :36:44. | :36:45. | |
which was all to do with mass unemployment basically, | :36:46. | :36:48. | |
and people who worked in traditional industries no longer | :36:49. | :36:50. | |
having anything to do. So the drugs came in, | :36:51. | :36:51. | |
and they won by default, You are in a world that has | :36:52. | :36:54. | |
education opportunities, travel opportunities, | :36:55. | :37:00. | |
cultural opportunities, If you are going to take | :37:01. | :37:01. | |
something like heroin, you're going to flirt with it, | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
it is not a serious thing. But if you are going to take | :37:07. | :37:09. | |
something like heroin and you've got none of these things, | :37:10. | :37:13. | |
there is nothing else to go to, no plan B, nothing to jump off too, | :37:14. | :37:16. | |
then you are going to be stuck with that relationship | :37:17. | :37:19. | |
for a long time. It's probably not as consequential | :37:20. | :37:21. | |
to have a heroin habit now. There are so many ways of treating | :37:22. | :37:24. | |
it that there wasn't back then. Sick Boy, Begbie, Renton and Spud | :37:25. | :37:32. | |
are back, and it's not You are the emotional | :37:33. | :37:39. | |
heart of this film. That's very nice to hear you say | :37:40. | :37:48. | |
that, but I think all... I haven't seen the finished version, | :37:49. | :37:54. | |
but the version I saw, every character made me cry, | :37:55. | :37:57. | |
and I was moved by every It's a really | :37:58. | :37:59. | |
unexpectedly moving film. It's sort of not about | :38:00. | :38:03. | |
recapturing something, but looking back on it, | :38:04. | :38:10. | |
in a way, and I think all of the characters are doing that, | :38:11. | :38:13. | |
there is a sort of nostalgia for their use, for that time, | :38:14. | :38:19. | |
and somehow John has managed to write in a little nostalgia | :38:20. | :38:22. | |
for the movie itself, I don't know how he has done that, | :38:23. | :38:24. | |
but it is very clever. We on the other hand | :38:25. | :38:35. | |
are colonised by wankers. Can't even find a decent | :38:36. | :38:54. | |
culture to be colonised by. I think that without putting too | :38:55. | :38:57. | |
much weight on this, I think Trainspotting | :38:58. | :38:59. | |
was the beginning of a reawakening of Scotland, of a Scotland | :39:00. | :39:01. | |
on a new-found self-confidence, of a Scotland finding a voice, | :39:02. | :39:05. | |
of a Scotland believing that it didn't need to repeat the tropes | :39:06. | :39:07. | |
or the memes of other cultures, and it could speak | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
profoundly in its own voice. But that's not all that changed | :39:12. | :39:17. | |
in the last 20 years. Youth culture's been | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
eradicated in Britain now. Because of the Internet, | :39:22. | :39:23. | |
it doesn't get a chance to grow I think it is changing | :39:24. | :39:28. | |
a little bit now. There are signs that it's coming | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
back, like grime, and East London, South London has one of the few | :39:34. | :39:40. | |
indigenous youth cultures to emerge in Britain in the last | :39:41. | :39:43. | |
kind of ten or 15 years. I don't really believe that a book | :39:44. | :39:46. | |
like Trainspotting would be For all sorts of reasons, I think | :39:47. | :39:48. | |
because of the content of it, because it is in a relatively | :39:49. | :39:58. | |
inaccessible Scottish vernacular. There are so many different reasons, | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
both moral culture and commercial, that would conspire against a book | :40:03. | :40:04. | |
like that getting For the millions who loved | :40:05. | :40:07. | |
the book and then the film, and who have waited 20 years to find | :40:08. | :40:31. | |
out what happened to them all, That's just about it before tonight. | :40:32. | :40:49. | |
We were talking about the resignation of Tulip Siddiq. She | :40:50. | :40:54. | |
Leca we said that she was in the Shadow Cabinet, she was actually a | :40:55. | :40:58. | |
shadow minister. Apologies to anyone who thought she was promoted before | :40:59. | :41:00. | |
she resigned. If these cold winter nights | :41:01. | :41:01. | |
are making you gloomy, then perhaps snuggling up in front | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
of Newsnight is not the answer. Research from Goldsmiths University | :41:06. | :41:07. | |
suggests those who partake in naturism are happier | :41:08. | :41:09. | |
with their bodies and happier | :41:10. | :41:13. |