25/01/2017 Newsnight


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS


25/01/2017

In-depth investigation with Emily Maitlis. Trump announces the US-Mexico wall, and he is about to meet Theresa May. Plus democracy in Hong Kong, and David Hare on Holocaust denial.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 25/01/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

The secretary of homeland security, working with myself and my staff,

:00:00.:00:07.

will begin immediate construction of a border wall.

:00:08.:00:12.

Donald Trump paves the way to drastically reduce America's

:00:13.:00:19.

involvement in the United Nations, as he signs off on his giant

:00:20.:00:22.

What signals is the President sending out about fortress America?

:00:23.:00:27.

I'll ask the former Mexican ambassador to the US.

:00:28.:00:31.

Also tonight, Britain promised Hong Kong it would help

:00:32.:00:33.

preserve its political freedoms in law.

:00:34.:00:37.

We fear the midnight knock at our door.

:00:38.:00:39.

We are no longer even safe in our own beds.

:00:40.:00:41.

We may be in Hong Kong, we may have broken no Hong

:00:42.:00:44.

Kong law, but we can still be made to disappear from Hong Kong soil.

:00:45.:00:47.

Nearly 20 years on from the handover to China,

:00:48.:00:50.

democracy looks increasingly fragile.

:00:51.:00:52.

Have we let down the people of that former territory?

:00:53.:00:56.

We speak to Hong Kong's last Governor, Chris Patten.

:00:57.:01:00.

It puzzles me that you think yourself qualified to attack me,

:01:01.:01:05.

given that I have 30 years experience in the archives

:01:06.:01:08.

and my books have been published by some of the greatest publishing

:01:09.:01:11.

A new film - Denial - tells us how Holocaust denier

:01:12.:01:15.

David Irvine tried to sue a historian in the High Court.

:01:16.:01:20.

I ask the scriptwriter David Hare about lies and libel

:01:21.:01:23.

Shortly after 2:30am, President Trump alerted the world

:01:24.:01:40.

that it was a big day for national security and that he was

:01:41.:01:43.

The wall - one of the most memorable pledges of his campaign trail -

:01:44.:01:48.

will be constructed along the border with Mexico, aimed at fulfilling his

:01:49.:01:52.

pledge to crack down on both illegal immigration and the flow

:01:53.:01:55.

The efficiency - possibility even - of a 2,000-mile barrier has raised

:01:56.:02:01.

eyebrows and is hotly debated, even within Trump's own cabinet.

:02:02.:02:04.

His Homeland Security advisor - retired General John Kelly -

:02:05.:02:08.

said it could only be effective to the extent it was backed up

:02:09.:02:11.

by far more sweeping measures, including more manpower and good

:02:12.:02:14.

relations with those south of the border.

:02:15.:02:17.

It'll cost up to ?20 billion - money Trump insists will be

:02:18.:02:20.

How unique is this attempt at a fortress?

:02:21.:02:24.

Donald Trump continues to lay the foundation stones of his presidency,

:02:25.:02:41.

signing executive orders on issues like rolling back Obamacare, a

:02:42.:02:44.

freeze on government hiring and withdrawing from trade deals. Today

:02:45.:02:49.

he signed an order to deliver perhaps his most famous campaign

:02:50.:02:53.

pledge. We will build a great wall along the southern border. And

:02:54.:03:00.

Mexico will pay for the wall. 100%. For those who thought this was

:03:01.:03:05.

merely a clap line for the Trump stump, today President Trump

:03:06.:03:12.

confirmed he was totally serious. Is secretary of homeland security,

:03:13.:03:14.

working with myself and my staff, will begin immediate construction of

:03:15.:03:18.

a border wall. APPLAUSE

:03:19.:03:24.

The United States of America gets back control of its borders, gets

:03:25.:03:34.

back its borders. Can we go ahead? But, as previous presidents have

:03:35.:03:38.

found, it is one thing to sign and seal and another to deliver. On his

:03:39.:03:43.

second full day in office, President Obama ordered the closing of

:03:44.:03:47.

Guantanamo Bay. But it stubbornly outlasted even his second term in

:03:48.:03:51.

office. His plans were locked up by an uncooperative Congress. So might

:03:52.:03:55.

Donald Trump's wall meet similar obstacles? Its obstacle is literary,

:03:56.:04:03.

build a wall. There are a lot of nuts and bolts in the process. First

:04:04.:04:07.

of all, the money has to be appropriated, it has to go to

:04:08.:04:12.

Congress, and Verdi is the question of what the physical wall looks

:04:13.:04:15.

like. If some of it fencing, and is some of it a virtual wall? Today was

:04:16.:04:21.

basically a message that they are serious about doing something wall

:04:22.:04:28.

related. But there are of course already extensive physical barriers

:04:29.:04:32.

on the US- Mexican border but they have been placed where people might

:04:33.:04:36.

try to cross. Previous administrations have seen little

:04:37.:04:42.

point in adding to extensively to the natural border provided by an

:04:43.:04:46.

inhabitable desert. Most undocumented immigrants come in

:04:47.:04:51.

through other means, student visas or work visas or tourist and they

:04:52.:04:54.

overstay. This isn't an issue where vast numbers of people are

:04:55.:05:00.

physically crossing the border in an undocumented sense. There are some,

:05:01.:05:04.

of course, but the majority come to the US for other means and the wall

:05:05.:05:08.

does not prevent that. And then there is the second part of the

:05:09.:05:13.

promise, the funding. Remember I said, Mexico is paying. But how?

:05:14.:05:21.

That was what Mr Trump was asked in his first sit down interview as

:05:22.:05:25.

president. We will be starting those negotiations with Mexico relatively

:05:26.:05:30.

soon and we will be in a form reimbursed. They will pay us back?

:05:31.:05:37.

100%. The American taxpayer will pay at first? We will be reimbursed at a

:05:38.:05:43.

later date from whatever transaction we make. The Mexican president said

:05:44.:05:48.

recently that Mexico will not pay and those against their dignity as a

:05:49.:05:52.

country and as Mexicans. I think he has to say that. He has to say that.

:05:53.:05:58.

And he may say that to Mr Trump's face when the president visits

:05:59.:06:04.

Washington next week, that is if the Mexican president doesn't cancel the

:06:05.:06:07.

visit altogether, as some unconfirmed reports have suggested.

:06:08.:06:11.

So which stones will the president add to his policy edifice next?

:06:12.:06:18.

After signing today's executive orders, the New York Times tonight

:06:19.:06:23.

reports that two new orders are being prepared, limiting US

:06:24.:06:25.

involvement in the UN and other international bodies. But Mr Trump

:06:26.:06:32.

will know that politics is about creating alliances, persuading

:06:33.:06:37.

people and, yes, doing deals, and even presidents sometimes struggle

:06:38.:06:38.

to get what they want. So is the wall an obvious solution

:06:39.:06:40.

that fails to address any of the real problems,

:06:41.:06:42.

or is this the right starting point for a country acknowledging

:06:43.:06:45.

its immigration problem? Joining me now, Arturo Sarukhan,

:06:46.:06:47.

former Mexican Ambassador This was clearly no empty threat,

:06:48.:07:02.

then. This is actually being built. Well, we don't know exactly what's

:07:03.:07:07.

going to be built. If we take Donald Trump, President Trump at face

:07:08.:07:11.

value, and I think we should after 18 months of campaign and these

:07:12.:07:13.

first days of the administration, there may be some form of brick and

:07:14.:07:21.

mortar wall that goes up, but again this is a decision that will do very

:07:22.:07:27.

little to alter the reality either of how undocumented immigration is

:07:28.:07:32.

coming into and staying in the US, or fundamentally alter some of the

:07:33.:07:37.

underpinnings of US national security and how you can guarantee

:07:38.:07:43.

that in the 21st century. Is your sense that President Nieto should

:07:44.:07:48.

cancel his planned trip next week? I think it will be very hard for him

:07:49.:07:54.

to come up next week, as was envisaged, in part because you still

:07:55.:07:57.

don't have a US administration that has its cabinet members confirmed

:07:58.:08:01.

and, given that Mexico has said it will put every single issue of the

:08:02.:08:06.

bilateral agenda on the table, that means engaging with every single

:08:07.:08:10.

agency at the department of Washington, DC, it's going to be

:08:11.:08:14.

hard to come and discuss a full agenda when you don't have the

:08:15.:08:16.

counterparts across the table because there are still to be

:08:17.:08:22.

confirmed by the sudden Sennett. But, because of this decision today,

:08:23.:08:26.

which could be construed by many ambush, while high-level Mexican

:08:27.:08:31.

officials are in town, starting those conversations leading up to

:08:32.:08:34.

the visit, but if this is going to be the way policy is put forward in

:08:35.:08:43.

terms of my way or the highway, it may make sense for the president to

:08:44.:08:47.

postpone and come back at a better time. Can you have decent relations

:08:48.:08:54.

now between Mexico and the US? Donald Trump said this evening that

:08:55.:08:58.

Mexico's economic future is important to the US, and John Kelly,

:08:59.:09:03.

his homeland adviser, said that the relations were imperative. Can those

:09:04.:09:08.

two countries still have them? Absolutely, these two countries are

:09:09.:09:12.

joined at the hip. They have to succeed together. Failure for one

:09:13.:09:17.

means failure for the other. We have $1.4 billion of trade going across

:09:18.:09:22.

the border every day and 35 million Mexican-Americans in the US. We have

:09:23.:09:25.

1.2 million Americans living in Mexico and it is imperative that

:09:26.:09:30.

both countries continue to build what we've been doing for the past

:09:31.:09:35.

20 years. You say that as if that is the perfect solution, but what we

:09:36.:09:39.

are hearing tonight is that Donald Trump has put Nafta on the agenda,

:09:40.:09:47.

the agenda. If he pulls out of that, the Mexican economy is sunk, isn't

:09:48.:09:53.

it? It's not sunk, but it will be dramatically impacted, but so will

:09:54.:09:57.

the US economy. There are 6 million US jobs depending directly on trade

:09:58.:10:01.

with Mexico, so if you are a president that has run on an agenda

:10:02.:10:07.

of bringing back jobs to America, if you destroy Nafta, you destroy 6

:10:08.:10:14.

million US jobs in a brushstroke. So, when Donald Trump says that

:10:15.:10:18.

Mexico will reimburse him for the building of this wall, he is 100%

:10:19.:10:22.

certain, he said this evening, is there truth in that? Would Mexico

:10:23.:10:26.

pay money or, I don't know, continued membership of the US in

:10:27.:10:32.

Nafta? Is there a deal to be done whereby you do pay for the wall? I

:10:33.:10:38.

don't think that is on the table. I think Mexico and the US have done

:10:39.:10:43.

and can continue to do great things together, but one thing I don't

:10:44.:10:46.

think they are going to do is build a wall. There are of course measures

:10:47.:10:50.

the president could take on remittances, tariffs and trade, but

:10:51.:10:54.

I don't think he will see Mexican monies from the Mexican Treasury

:10:55.:10:57.

coming across the border to pay for the wall. Thank you for joining us.

:10:58.:10:59.

Joining me now, Max Fisher, Analyst at the New York Times who's

:11:00.:11:02.

breaking the story tonight about the moves Trump is making

:11:03.:11:05.

to minimize the US role in the United Nations.

:11:06.:11:12.

This is something that would affect us all, of course. Just explain what

:11:13.:11:21.

you are hearing. There two executive orders that are in draft form that

:11:22.:11:25.

are circulating the White House now, and they are currently planning to

:11:26.:11:30.

sign them in the end of the week. The first would review a huge subset

:11:31.:11:35.

of multilateral treaties that the United States is currently engaged

:11:36.:11:38.

in. It's not clear which treaties they have in mind, but it sure looks

:11:39.:11:43.

like it opens up planet and environmental agreements currently

:11:44.:11:45.

in force to be abrogated. The second and in some ways bigger one is

:11:46.:11:49.

reviewing funding for the United Nations, and this draft executive

:11:50.:11:55.

order, if signed, would do two things. It would terminate any US

:11:56.:11:59.

funding for any UN agency that needs a subset of conditions, any support

:12:00.:12:05.

for abortion programmes, there are a few rules that are very vague,

:12:06.:12:11.

something about it including help for countries that opposed the

:12:12.:12:14.

United States, and they would cut funding, not sure what that means.

:12:15.:12:18.

Once they have done that, the order would mandate a 40% cut in all US

:12:19.:12:24.

funding towards the United Nations, any UN agency or any other

:12:25.:12:28.

international organisations, which would amount to billions of dollars.

:12:29.:12:31.

It's not clear where that cut would come from, but the order singled out

:12:32.:12:35.

peacekeeping, which is very concerning because the US holds a

:12:36.:12:41.

huge amount of international peacekeeping, and a few other items.

:12:42.:12:44.

Reading between the lines, because your report suggests a lot of it

:12:45.:12:50.

would be auditing and reducing, terminating funding for any

:12:51.:12:53.

organisation controlled or influenced by any state which

:12:54.:12:56.

sponsors terrorism, a lot of this would sound quite sensible at first

:12:57.:13:01.

glance, cutting down on waste to a bloated organisation. You think it's

:13:02.:13:05.

more than that? And you have to remember that a really big amount of

:13:06.:13:09.

US funding to UN doesn't go to stay closed or red pens out towards

:13:10.:13:16.

peacekeeping operations. The US funds about 27% of the UN's

:13:17.:13:22.

peacekeeping operations, a lot of aid to refugees. These programmes

:13:23.:13:27.

are already stretched thin. There are currently peacekeeping

:13:28.:13:30.

operations in 16 countries. If the US cuts almost half its funding for

:13:31.:13:35.

those, the operations won't go away, but it has pretty significant

:13:36.:13:38.

ramifications for the people living in those countries, Mali, Cyprus,

:13:39.:13:43.

Lebanon, places which are not really a great position to have a bunch of

:13:44.:13:49.

UN leave suddenly because the United States no longer wants to be part of

:13:50.:13:54.

the United Nations as fully. Do we know if the Paris climate change

:13:55.:13:58.

deal is in jeopardy, and do we know which parts of the organisations

:13:59.:14:01.

would specifically be hit by the cut? On the treaties, the executive

:14:02.:14:08.

order is very short, about a page and a half, but the subset of

:14:09.:14:12.

multilateral treaties that it is targeting, which is anything

:14:13.:14:15.

unrelated to extradition, directly related to trade or national

:14:16.:14:21.

security, would be reviewed, and this commission they are setting up

:14:22.:14:25.

would have to look at it and say, yes, we want to continue or not

:14:26.:14:28.

continue. One of the biggest ones that would be in the cross hairs

:14:29.:14:33.

would be the Paris climate agreement, which President Trump has

:14:34.:14:37.

signalled a lot of scepticism of, and it's not unreasonable to suspect

:14:38.:14:40.

he would use this as a mechanism to withdraw from it. The agencies, we

:14:41.:14:44.

don't know. Technically, what this is setting up is a panel which will

:14:45.:14:48.

recommend cuts, figuring out where we should cut, but it also makes

:14:49.:14:54.

some suggestions for the one big one is peacekeeping. Another one of

:14:55.:15:00.

these suggested cuts, oddly, if the international criminal court, which

:15:01.:15:02.

is strange because the United States doesn't provide funding to that.

:15:03.:15:06.

Thank you for joining us appreciate you.

:15:07.:15:09.

Tomorrow, Theresa May heads to Washington,

:15:10.:15:10.

the first foreign leader to hold meetings with the new US President.

:15:11.:15:13.

The two could not be more different - in temperament,

:15:14.:15:16.

in character, and possibly in their priorities too.

:15:17.:15:17.

Our political editor Nick Watt is here.

:15:18.:15:23.

First what you are hearing on this side of the Atlantic about those

:15:24.:15:30.

alterations to the US - UN relationship now and funding. There

:15:31.:15:35.

were audible gasps of breath in Whitehall and Parliament when the

:15:36.:15:38.

report flashed up on the US website. One senior Tory said to me, oh my

:15:39.:15:43.

God, it makes Putin looked like a pussycat. There is a feeling that

:15:44.:15:47.

were these executive orders to be enacted they could severely

:15:48.:15:51.

undermine the UN. My senior Tory said the timings of this report is

:15:52.:15:54.

particularly unfortunate for Theresa May because as you say she flies to

:15:55.:16:07.

the US in the morning to seek Donald Trump. The senior Tory said to me,

:16:08.:16:09.

"It's a reality check, she needs to calling people who know what they

:16:10.:16:12.

are doing. " There is a feeling Theresa May has planned this trip

:16:13.:16:14.

very tightly. I've heard from sources close to Cabinet ministers

:16:15.:16:16.

she hasn't really been consulting cabinet colleagues and some voices

:16:17.:16:19.

have been wondering whether it is wise to rush over that quickly.

:16:20.:16:23.

How is she preparing, handling the trip?

:16:24.:16:28.

Theresa May hopes when she becomes the first world leader to meet

:16:29.:16:32.

Donald Trump in the White House within a week of his inauguration

:16:33.:16:35.

she will be laying the ground for a very constructive relationship. She

:16:36.:16:38.

will be talking about renewing the special relationship for this new

:16:39.:16:43.

age and as a sign of that constructive relationship she will

:16:44.:16:48.

be handing Donald Trump a kick, sorry, a quake, an ancient Scottish

:16:49.:16:52.

artefacts. There is on our screen. An ancient Scottish cup designed to

:16:53.:16:55.

signal friendship. She hopes that will lead to a good friendship. Some

:16:56.:17:00.

of the language she will dues when she is in the US will take on

:17:01.:17:04.

renewed significance in light of that New York Times report. She will

:17:05.:17:09.

essentially make a plea for multilateral organisations, when she

:17:10.:17:13.

says the institutions upon which the world relies were so often conceived

:17:14.:17:18.

or inspired by our two nations working together.

:17:19.:17:22.

And she will talk about deepening defence cooperation through Nato.

:17:23.:17:26.

These are perhaps brave words, because obviously Donald Trump told

:17:27.:17:29.

Michael Gove in that interview recently that Nato was obsolete.

:17:30.:17:33.

Although, to be fair to the president, did Nato was important to

:17:34.:17:39.

him and appeared to be suggesting it is wrongly configured to tackle

:17:40.:17:43.

terrorism. We thought on the eve of this meeting on Thursday between

:17:44.:17:46.

this and likely pairing of Donald Trump and Theresa May we would find

:17:47.:17:50.

them helpful words of advice for the Prime Minister. Here is our film.

:17:51.:17:58.

It's absolutely vital to stress that Britain doesn't want to have to

:17:59.:18:03.

choose between its very special relationship with the United States

:18:04.:18:06.

and its very significant relationship with China. And in that

:18:07.:18:12.

context, the most important and biggest threat to everyone's

:18:13.:18:17.

prosperity is climate change, which cannot be resolved without

:18:18.:18:19.

cooperation and in particular cooperation with China for its also,

:18:20.:18:24.

I think, really important to point out that China understands something

:18:25.:18:28.

which is very important about the economy and the energies and the

:18:29.:18:32.

technologies of the future, which is that they are not based on oil and

:18:33.:18:38.

gas, they are renewable, low-carbon, clean, green and efficient.

:18:39.:18:42.

China understands that. The United States ought to be innovating and

:18:43.:18:47.

competing on that front, not trying to turn the clock back.

:18:48.:18:55.

America's greatness stems from its allies, no country in the history of

:18:56.:18:58.

the world has had more allies or use them to better effect on Trump

:18:59.:19:01.

tragically doesn't get that. The most important thing for Theresa May

:19:02.:19:05.

to get across is to say that the allies really matter, not just

:19:06.:19:10.

Britain, because Trump seems to have clocked that, but European allies.

:19:11.:19:13.

These are countries that believe in American greatness and he can work

:19:14.:19:17.

with them in a way you cannot work with someone like Vladimir Putin,

:19:18.:19:20.

who doesn't believe in American greatness.

:19:21.:19:25.

My advice would be to represent the best interests of Britain, make sure

:19:26.:19:32.

the United Kingdom comes first in any negotiations that you're having.

:19:33.:19:39.

He's a very nice guy. He understands the national interests very well. He

:19:40.:19:45.

would never expect you to kowtow to the United States, and nor by the

:19:46.:19:48.

way would anybody around him. I think that's the vibe I'm getting

:19:49.:19:53.

out on the street here, too. Having said that, diplomacy is obviously

:19:54.:19:58.

primary and very, very important in these situations. There will be a

:19:59.:20:02.

lot of pressure to say things about what happened during the campaign

:20:03.:20:05.

trail, especially on the back of last 'sprotest. I would still steer

:20:06.:20:09.

clear from it, stick to policy and start forging a relationship of two

:20:10.:20:15.

nations that can lead to the world again.

:20:16.:20:19.

It's a very tricky situation. You're dealing with someone who is a bully

:20:20.:20:24.

and who is very fragile underneath, because most bullies are. You need

:20:25.:20:30.

to be as robust as you can, and not by the romance that he has already

:20:31.:20:34.

proposed, which I think is the way to diminish you. And to find a way

:20:35.:20:40.

to represent yourself as a leader of an important country in the world.

:20:41.:20:48.

Two words, trade deal. That's all really she has to worry about. Right

:20:49.:20:52.

now he needs to prove to his friends in Washington that he is capable of

:20:53.:20:56.

cutting a deal with countries as well as tearing up trade deals. He

:20:57.:21:00.

said he does in my multilateral deals, wants to do one-on-one. Along

:21:01.:21:05.

comes Britain. We are leaving the EU at exactly the time you need the

:21:06.:21:08.

deal politically as much as we need one economic clue. This is a window

:21:09.:21:11.

of opportunity that might last forever. We don't know a lot how

:21:12.:21:16.

long he will be president for or how long Republicans will control

:21:17.:21:20.

Congress for, but for these two years, perhaps shorter, there is a

:21:21.:21:23.

chance for Theresa May to walk away with the best possible price after

:21:24.:21:27.

Brexit, a free-trade deal with the biggest and most successful economy

:21:28.:21:32.

on earth. Be nice, be constructive, but don't

:21:33.:21:38.

pander and try to get him to understand his importance in meeting

:21:39.:21:41.

are these big global challenges and get him to the words Nato is good.

:21:42.:21:45.

Some advice there. Before Theresa May heads off this

:21:46.:21:55.

has been a big Brexit week. Tomorrow we will see the wording of the

:21:56.:21:59.

Parliamentary builder makes sure the government complies with the Supreme

:22:00.:22:02.

Court then make sure its parliament and not government that triggers

:22:03.:22:05.

those Brexit negotiations. It is interesting. We will see how tightly

:22:06.:22:09.

worded that Dell is and how easy or difficult it will be for MPs and

:22:10.:22:14.

latterly peers to amend that bill. But the government has cleared its

:22:15.:22:17.

Commons business next week and they are pretty confident it will

:22:18.:22:21.

complete its common stage by February the 9th, when the House of

:22:22.:22:25.

Commons rises for a mini recess and then it over to the House of Lords.

:22:26.:22:30.

Interestingly we will get that bill after something of a U-turn from

:22:31.:22:34.

Theresa May when she announced at Prime Minister's Questions earlier

:22:35.:22:38.

today she would after all publish a white paper, setting out the

:22:39.:22:40.

framework for her negotiations. But the government is saying we will

:22:41.:22:44.

have to wait a little bit of time for that White paper because it is

:22:45.:22:48.

separate from the bill. The bill is about triggering negotiations. The

:22:49.:22:51.

White Paper is about the framework for the negotiations. Nick, thank

:22:52.:22:53.

you. The Hong Kong Handover

:22:54.:22:56.

will see its 20 year anniversary this year -

:22:57.:22:58.

marking the moment in 1997 when the territory was returned

:22:59.:23:01.

from British to Chinese rule. To address the huge fears that

:23:02.:23:03.

Hong Kong's political and economic freedoms would be undermined

:23:04.:23:06.

by Communist China, those liberties The so-called Joint Declaration

:23:07.:23:08.

committed both countries to an understanding that it was

:23:09.:23:20.

One Country, Two Systems. But how much has either country

:23:21.:23:22.

stuck to its promise The Umbrella Protests two years ago

:23:23.:23:24.

brought a new generation But no new steps

:23:25.:23:28.

towards real democracy. Has Britain chosen to prioritize

:23:29.:23:34.

trade over probity? We ask the last Governor

:23:35.:23:36.

of Hong Kong, Chris Patten. There has been racing in Hong Kong

:23:37.:23:38.

Jockey Club for almost as long Deng Xiaoping once promised that,

:23:39.:23:45.

after the handover, horse racing would continue and dance parties

:23:46.:23:54.

would go on. His promise was kept here,

:23:55.:23:58.

but other promises made 20 years ago The fault lines that brought tens

:23:59.:24:02.

of thousands onto the streets two There are now more radical

:24:03.:24:09.

voices on both sides, and those fighting for the freedoms

:24:10.:24:14.

that set Hong Kong apart from the rest of China feel

:24:15.:24:16.

increasingly abandoned. Unfortunately, the rest

:24:17.:24:19.

of the world, particularly Great Britain, would rather pretend

:24:20.:24:21.

not to see what is going on, and I'm afraid that,

:24:22.:24:27.

if they continue to ignore the steady erosion, then

:24:28.:24:30.

by the time they wake up to the fact that One Country,

:24:31.:24:34.

Two Systems exists only in name, One Country, Two Systems

:24:35.:24:37.

is the deal agreed between For 50 years after 1997,

:24:38.:24:41.

Hong Kong is guaranteed what the rest of China can't have -

:24:42.:24:50.

free speech, free press and an independent justice system,

:24:51.:24:53.

and a partially elected assembly. Now Hong Kong people

:24:54.:24:58.

are to run Hong Kong. That is the promise,

:24:59.:25:05.

and that is the unshakeable destiny. For many, that promise

:25:06.:25:13.

now feels hollow. Kevin Lau thinks a free press

:25:14.:25:18.

is threatened by intimidation of journalists and media owners

:25:19.:25:21.

who are sympathetic to China or afraid to lose

:25:22.:25:23.

advertising revenue. So he started an independent,

:25:24.:25:29.

crowd-funded news site. Now is the time, because Hong Kong

:25:30.:25:33.

media is facing such He was the editor of a newspaper

:25:34.:25:36.

that looked into mainland business, including offshore holdings

:25:37.:25:45.

by the Chinese leadership. In 2014, he was attacked

:25:46.:25:47.

on the street by two He was hospitalised for five months

:25:48.:25:50.

and struggles to walk today. The fact that an innocent journalist

:25:51.:25:56.

was brutally attacked by violence is a threat to press freedom

:25:57.:26:03.

in Hong Kong, because it sends chilling signals

:26:04.:26:09.

to working journalists. Press freedom has been

:26:10.:26:14.

nowhere in the past. I'm not sure whether it

:26:15.:26:21.

will continue in the future. The threat to free speech

:26:22.:26:24.

is made clear in the case They peddled gossipy publications

:26:25.:26:26.

about the Beijing leadership. Then, in 2015, all five disappeared

:26:27.:26:33.

- only to reappear in Chinese One, a British citizen, Lee Bo,

:26:34.:26:36.

may have been kidnapped Another, Lam Wing-kei, was detained

:26:37.:26:42.

as he crossed the border. TRANSLATION: I was visiting my

:26:43.:26:51.

girlfriend in the mainland and I was stopped by two officials

:26:52.:26:54.

at the border. They took me to a police van

:26:55.:26:57.

where there were dozens Then I was taken to the police

:26:58.:26:59.

station in Shenzhen, where I was held in the prisoners'

:27:00.:27:03.

compound and interrogated. Mr Lam was released after eight

:27:04.:27:07.

months, on the condition that he handed over a hard disk

:27:08.:27:11.

containing information on their customers,

:27:12.:27:14.

which he says he hasn't done. TRANSLATION: I believe there

:27:15.:27:19.

are people who are watching me, My main worry is that they will

:27:20.:27:21.

kidnap me and take me You have the abduction

:27:22.:27:27.

of the four publishers, the exercise of extrajudicial powers

:27:28.:27:31.

on Hong Kong soil, which makes us all wonder, should we fear

:27:32.:27:36.

the midnight knock at our door? We are no longer even

:27:37.:27:40.

safe in our own beds. We may be in Hong Kong,

:27:41.:27:42.

we may have broken no Hong Kong law, but we can still be made

:27:43.:27:45.

to disappear from Hong Kong soil. Anson Chan is one of Hong Kong's

:27:46.:27:49.

most respected leaders. She was Chris Patten's number two

:27:50.:27:52.

and held several of the most senior She accuses China of attacking

:27:53.:27:55.

the One Country, Two Systems agreement and Britain of doing

:27:56.:28:01.

nothing to protect it. You put your signature to the joint

:28:02.:28:05.

declaration and you handed over 7 million people

:28:06.:28:07.

to what is still a totalitarian state, on the basis

:28:08.:28:11.

of those promises. Do you think the British government

:28:12.:28:15.

simply isn't brave enough I think Great Britain feels

:28:16.:28:17.

that its first and best interest lies in trading with China,

:28:18.:28:23.

and they don't much care whether they trade

:28:24.:28:25.

with China on any terms. A new generation has emerged

:28:26.:28:30.

since the Umbrella Protest in 2014, caused by Beijing's decision to vet

:28:31.:28:34.

the short list for the Students Joshua Wong, then just 17,

:28:35.:28:37.

and Nathan Law, 20, were two Beijing never backed down,

:28:38.:28:48.

but this seems to push more The students now lead

:28:49.:28:58.

their own political party, campaigning here about treatment

:28:59.:29:06.

by the police and pushing In 2017, I believe there will be

:29:07.:29:08.

more demonstrations and protests, especially under the interference

:29:09.:29:13.

of Beijing government. This just proves the failure

:29:14.:29:15.

of One Country, Two Systems. A lot of people after the movement

:29:16.:29:19.

feel frustrated and upset because there was no true democracy

:29:20.:29:23.

in Hong Kong after the movement, so more or less the goal

:29:24.:29:26.

of the movement failed. Maybe we lost a battle,

:29:27.:29:29.

but we will win the war. In elections in September,

:29:30.:29:35.

pro-democrats experienced Nathan Law was elected

:29:36.:29:37.

to the legislative council, but pro-Beijing forces are trying

:29:38.:29:45.

to use the court to This new generation of activists

:29:46.:29:48.

is challenging Beijing on many fronts, building a pro-democracy

:29:49.:29:54.

network across east Asia. But watch what happened when they

:29:55.:29:59.

returned from a trip to Taiwan. A pro-Beijing mob attacked

:30:00.:30:02.

Nathan as he arrived The Communist Party

:30:03.:30:05.

is behind all these things. They tried to stigmatise

:30:06.:30:19.

all the Democrats and then try to mobilise these patriotic mobs

:30:20.:30:23.

to personally attack each of us. We messaged one of the leaders

:30:24.:30:28.

of the protest on WeChat. When we told him we were from

:30:29.:30:30.

the BBC, he ended the conversation. But we did find out

:30:31.:30:36.

that he is the head of a tour guide union that works

:30:37.:30:39.

with visitors from China. And the role of unions,

:30:40.:30:42.

trade associations and executive boards in extending China's

:30:43.:30:44.

influence in Hong Kong is crucial. Many people here have told us that,

:30:45.:30:50.

from transport unions to school boards, the university councils,

:30:51.:30:52.

pro-Beijing voices are It affects the way everyday

:30:53.:30:54.

decisions are made in major The infrastructure and economic ties

:30:55.:31:03.

that bind are growing stronger. This is the new bridge that

:31:04.:31:11.

will span the Pearl River delta, And there are many in

:31:12.:31:14.

Hong Kong who do support Holden Chow represents the biggest

:31:15.:31:20.

party in the legislative council. I would say you can't simply bring

:31:21.:31:26.

everything to Beijing. Under that One Country,

:31:27.:31:30.

Two Systems we are running, we do need back-up from the central

:31:31.:31:32.

government, as we have a lot of economic activities and close

:31:33.:31:36.

ties with the mainland. There has always

:31:37.:31:40.

been tension between pro-democrats and pro-Beijingers,

:31:41.:31:43.

but is there now a third position? Yao Wei-ching and Baggio Leung

:31:44.:31:49.

are separatists, arguing They were excluded from the chamber

:31:50.:31:51.

for using offensive language. This was the response

:31:52.:32:00.

from pro-Beijingers The separatists have only limited

:32:01.:32:01.

support so far, but they think All those applications that I can

:32:02.:32:11.

use in this phone has been hacked. They are taking us to a town where

:32:12.:32:17.

they say most are from the mainland. They believe that high levels

:32:18.:32:23.

of immigration are deliberate policy You can see that it is no

:32:24.:32:26.

longer part of Hong Kong, This is something

:32:27.:32:33.

like a city in China. I think that most of

:32:34.:32:41.

the Hong Kongers don't want to see Support for independence is not

:32:42.:32:46.

widely held, but it represents a radical shift in tone,

:32:47.:32:52.

partly because the goals of the Umbrella Movement

:32:53.:32:55.

have been frustrated. If the One Country, Two Systems

:32:56.:32:59.

cannot protect Hong Kong people from the control, the next

:33:00.:33:02.

step is to separate from China. In Happy Valley, they pride

:33:03.:33:10.

themselves on being Tonight, over 100 million US

:33:11.:33:12.

dollars will be bet, But those who fight to keep

:33:13.:33:20.

Hong Kong free from Beijing's control feel increasingly

:33:21.:33:29.

on their own. Earlier I spoke to the man you saw

:33:30.:33:34.

in that film, Lord Patten, I asked him if he agreed

:33:35.:33:37.

with his former number two there, Anson Chan, that the world,

:33:38.:33:41.

and Britain in particular, were being wilfully blind,

:33:42.:33:44.

ignoring the erosion of human rights I think the point that Anson

:33:45.:33:47.

makes is a very good one. She's one of the most remarkable

:33:48.:33:55.

people I've ever worked with, and I would be very loathe to ever

:33:56.:33:58.

disagree with her. My worry is related to that,

:33:59.:34:02.

which is I wonder what's happened to our sense of honour and our sense

:34:03.:34:11.

of responsibility, particularly in Britain,

:34:12.:34:16.

it's above all a British question. We signed the joint declaration

:34:17.:34:18.

with China, it's a treaty at the UN, it's supposed to commit us

:34:19.:34:24.

to standing up for Hong Kong's You don't get much sense of British

:34:25.:34:27.

governments actually standing over those promises and obligations,

:34:28.:34:35.

and I think that's a great pity, and it's all for derisory,

:34:36.:34:41.

ludicrous reasons. The argument, which is I suspect

:34:42.:34:46.

going to be tested quite a bit in the next few months,

:34:47.:34:52.

the argument that the only way you can do trade with China

:34:53.:34:56.

is by kowtowing to China on political issues is drivel,

:34:57.:35:00.

it's complete nonsense. You once called it the unshakeable

:35:01.:35:04.

destiny of Hong Kong people Does it still feel

:35:05.:35:10.

unshakeable to you? Yes, because I think

:35:11.:35:15.

at the end of the day, I think the values, the attributes

:35:16.:35:18.

which make Hong Kong I think that Communism,

:35:19.:35:26.

whatever that is, Leninism with capitalist characteristics,

:35:27.:35:32.

is not a long runner. I think the rule of law,

:35:33.:35:39.

I think freedom of speech, I think freedom of worship,

:35:40.:35:43.

I think all the freedoms you associate with a plural society

:35:44.:35:45.

are long-term winners - not just in everywhere else

:35:46.:35:50.

in the world, but in Asia as well. So is Anson Chan going too far

:35:51.:35:55.

when she says you put your signature to the joint declaration,

:35:56.:35:59.

you hand over 7 million people to what is still

:36:00.:36:01.

a totalitarian state, The British government isn't

:36:02.:36:04.

being brave enough to stand up? I think the British government would

:36:05.:36:09.

be well advised to prove her wrong, because I think it would be

:36:10.:36:14.

dishonourable not to do so. I worry about now people

:36:15.:36:17.

are prepared to sell our honour for alleged trade deals,

:36:18.:36:29.

which never actually happen. I think that would be

:36:30.:36:33.

calamitous, and what do we represent in the world,

:36:34.:36:36.

if that's what happens? In what sense would the next

:36:37.:36:41.

generation of leaders in Hong Kong, who will be, sooner or later,

:36:42.:36:46.

democratically chosen, in what sense would they feel any

:36:47.:36:49.

special relationship to the United Kingdom,

:36:50.:36:52.

if that's how we behave? Look, I feel very strongly

:36:53.:36:55.

that we let down the parents of this I think it would be a tragedy

:36:56.:37:01.

if we let down these kids as well. I meant by the last ten

:37:02.:37:08.

or 15 years of British responsibility in Hong Kong,

:37:09.:37:14.

I think we should have done more We did a certain amount,

:37:15.:37:19.

but I don't think we did enough and I think if Hong Kong had had

:37:20.:37:25.

another five or ten years' experience of democracy it

:37:26.:37:29.

would have been much more difficult for the Chinese authorities to have

:37:30.:37:32.

rolled it back, as they have done. We're now almost 20 years

:37:33.:37:38.

since the handover and we're still arguing about whether or not,

:37:39.:37:43.

in effect, Beijing should decide who runs Hong Kong

:37:44.:37:47.

or whether the people We asked the Chinese ambassador

:37:48.:37:52.

to come on, but he declined. The British Foreign

:37:53.:37:59.

Office told us that they believe that One Country,

:38:00.:38:01.

Two Systems continues to be the best arrangement for Hong Kong's

:38:02.:38:03.

long term stability and prosperity, "We hope and expect that

:38:04.:38:06.

One Country, Two Systems will be respected and successful long

:38:07.:38:10.

into the future." The Holocaust denier David Irving

:38:11.:38:16.

rose to prominence as a historian who refused to believe

:38:17.:38:19.

in the concentration camps of Auschwitz and the systemic

:38:20.:38:22.

extermination of Jews In 1996, he brought a case

:38:23.:38:24.

against Penguin Books and the American historian

:38:25.:38:28.

Deborah Lipstadt - accusing her The case has now been made

:38:29.:38:32.

into a major film - Denial - In a moment we will speak

:38:33.:38:39.

to its scriptwriter David Hare, and ask what it tells us about lies,

:38:40.:38:44.

libel and disinformation First, a clip of the film

:38:45.:38:47.

showing Rachel Weisz, who plays Deborah Lipstadst,

:38:48.:38:51.

the accused writer. Some people are saying

:38:52.:38:55.

that the result of this trial On the contrary, I've been

:38:56.:38:58.

defending it against someone Freedom of speech means you can

:38:59.:39:06.

say whatever you want. What you can't do is lie and then

:39:07.:39:10.

expect not to be accountable for it. Not all opinions are equal,

:39:11.:39:15.

and some things happen, The Earth is round, the ice caps

:39:16.:39:19.

are melting and Elvis is not alive. Just before coming on air

:39:20.:39:34.

I spoke to David Hare. I asked him whether that clip was at

:39:35.:39:46.

the crux of what the film was trying to say.

:39:47.:39:47.

Well that was the reason that I wanted to write the film, really,

:39:48.:39:50.

because there's a sort of view at the moment that

:39:51.:39:53.

As if it's an argument to be able to say, "Well that's my opinion".

:39:54.:39:57.

And so you say something and then somebody says something else

:39:58.:40:00.

and obviously this has been encouraged by the Internet,

:40:01.:40:02.

this idea that you can just assert things and it is a false kind

:40:03.:40:06.

of democracy to say that everybody's opinions are equal.

:40:07.:40:10.

Those opinions that are backed up by fact and provable fact

:40:11.:40:16.

are superior to the opinions of those that are not

:40:17.:40:19.

That's really what I wanted to write about.

:40:20.:40:25.

That trial at the time pretty much killed Irving's reputation,

:40:26.:40:29.

from what I remember, he was never taken seriously again.

:40:30.:40:32.

But I wonder if you think, in this age, he would still thrive,

:40:33.:40:36.

that we have become more accepting of untruth?

:40:37.:40:40.

Personally, I don't think the Internet is

:40:41.:40:42.

I think that at the time, he walked into a trap.

:40:43.:40:49.

You know, it was his idea to bring the lawsuit.

:40:50.:40:55.

It was always felt, people kept accidentally calling

:40:56.:40:58.

Deborah Lipstadst the prosecution, but she wasn't the prosecution,

:40:59.:41:03.

He chose to take it to court, and he did that thinking

:41:04.:41:08.

that his deliberate mis-manipulation of the truth would not

:41:09.:41:14.

be revealed in court, but by a rather wonderful process,

:41:15.:41:17.

thanks to Anthony Julius, the solicitor, and Richard Rampton,

:41:18.:41:21.

the brilliant Counsel, they actually proved not

:41:22.:41:27.

just that he was lying but they also managed

:41:28.:41:30.

This was in the 90s, in a pre-Twitter age.

:41:31.:41:35.

I think it was Hugo Rifkind who wrote this week,

:41:36.:41:37.

When we stop concentrating, this is when we understand the world.

:41:38.:41:42.

If enough people behold a thing it becomes true."

:41:43.:41:47.

Do you sense that is what we are entering now?

:41:48.:41:50.

You know, I'm a little bit resistant to all this.

:41:51.:41:52.

In other words, you know, people are saying that

:41:53.:41:55.

Donald Trump is a liar, and clearly he is a liar.

:41:56.:41:58.

But there have been a whole series of American presidents who have said

:41:59.:42:06.

Nixon wasn't overly fond of the truth.

:42:07.:42:09.

Reagan claimed to know nothing about Iran-Contra,

:42:10.:42:13.

he claimed not to know America was financing terrorism

:42:14.:42:16.

You know, lying in politics is not a new things.

:42:17.:42:24.

The majority of presidents, let's say, have told a lie in office.

:42:25.:42:27.

Is there a difference, though, if the media,

:42:28.:42:29.

if broadcasters know at the time that something is a lie,

:42:30.:42:33.

should they strive for balance or should they call it out as a lie?

:42:34.:42:37.

I think they have to call it out as a lie.

:42:38.:42:40.

Look, what was unusual about Irving was that he claimed

:42:41.:42:44.

that the mistakes he had made in the book Hitler's War,

:42:45.:42:47.

and historians working for the defence found 25 mistakes

:42:48.:42:52.

of fact in the book, but they all tended one way.

:42:53.:42:56.

In other words, and what Richard Rampton was able to do,

:42:57.:43:00.

was to prove that there was a motivation for

:43:01.:43:02.

You know, some historians got upset and said no book can survive

:43:03.:43:08.

The answer of the defence was - no, no, no, all historians make

:43:09.:43:15.

mistakes, but if all their mistakes head in one direction, and that

:43:16.:43:22.

direction is the exoneration of Adolf Hitler for the death

:43:23.:43:25.

of the Jews, then you have to say that they aren't mistakes,

:43:26.:43:30.

And that's what was so brilliant about a trial.

:43:31.:43:35.

In getting back to the film and the way that portrays the trial,

:43:36.:43:38.

it's very much that passion versus, if you like, rationality.

:43:39.:43:41.

American versus British, you have these rather buttoned up

:43:42.:43:44.

British lawyers and the American academic, who wants to do it

:43:45.:43:49.

with her heart and they want to do it with logic.

:43:50.:43:52.

Was that pretty much how the trial itself was,

:43:53.:43:55.

or is that something you wanted to bring into the script?

:43:56.:43:58.

Deborah Lipstadst was forced not to give evidence.

:43:59.:44:01.

Not only was she not allowed to give evidence by her own defence team,

:44:02.:44:07.

but also the survivors of the camps were not allowed to give evidence.

:44:08.:44:11.

I think I have a line where Richard Rampton says,

:44:12.:44:15.

"What feels best, isn't what works best".

:44:16.:44:19.

And so films about the difference between self-righteous

:44:20.:44:24.

And would you take that into the political sphere now?

:44:25.:44:30.

Clearly Hillary Clinton lost against Donald Trump because she has

:44:31.:44:35.

We leave you with the work of the bad lip reading YouTube

:44:36.:44:49.

channel, who watched the inauguration on some

:44:50.:44:50.

Together we will build a bar in rural Connecticut,

:44:51.:45:13.

and we will make it a bar with a nanny, and we will make it

:45:14.:45:18.

a bar called Brown Lady, and we will make it a bar that has

:45:19.:45:22.

# When you want to make a bad day a greater day

:45:23.:45:29.

Good evening. More fog tonight, mostly on the hills, and ice will be

:45:30.:45:53.

a real concern with freezing drizzle and snow on widely subzero surfaces.

:45:54.:45:54.

Trump announces the US-Mexico wall, and he is about to meet Theresa May. Plus democracy in Hong Kong, and David Hare on Holocaust denial.

With Emily Maitlis.