24/01/2017 Newsnight


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24/01/2017

With Evan Davis. Does the Supreme Court ruling on Article 50 matter and can Labour find votes in Brexit? Plus, Trump and the environment and should 4 year olds wear hijabs?


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Back in November, when the court said Parliament should

:00:07.:00:08.

get a vote on Brexit, there was rejoicing on one side,

:00:09.:00:11.

Today, the Supreme Court upheld that verdict,

:00:12.:00:19.

but it wasn't really clear who'd won or lost.

:00:20.:00:26.

This judgment does not change the fact that the UK

:00:27.:00:29.

will leave the European Union, and it's our job to deliver

:00:30.:00:32.

on the instruction the people of the UK have given us.

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Never has so much attention been given to a Supreme Court case

:00:37.:00:41.

of such enormous constitutional significance, but which may end up

:00:42.:00:43.

We'll hear from Alex Salmond, on the path Scotland will now take.

:00:44.:00:50.

And Labour's Emily Thornberry on the party's challenge of trying

:00:51.:00:53.

to appeal to both sides of the Brexit debate.

:00:54.:00:57.

Also tonight, should primary school children wear hijabs?

:00:58.:01:03.

We must not normalise it, instead of supporting that practice we should

:01:04.:01:10.

question it because what you are doing is sexualising that child.

:01:11.:01:12.

Donald Trump invites the cameras into the Oval Office.

:01:13.:01:15.

What's he got to say about the environment?

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We can't be in an environmental process for 15 years if a bridge is

:01:19.:01:22.

going to be falling down, or if a highway is crumbling.

:01:23.:01:26.

So we're expediting environmental reviews and

:01:27.:01:27.

If you thought the arguments over Brexit would end

:01:28.:01:44.

after the referendum, sorry, it's not over

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and the Supreme Court has invited the arguments to continue -

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in the Commons, and perhaps more crucially now,

:01:50.:01:51.

Then there's Scotland, the court didn't give the government

:01:52.:01:57.

there any power over Brexit, but the SNP are not going to accept

:01:58.:02:01.

Now it's not clear who will actually have the muscle to actually

:02:02.:02:06.

block or delay Brexit, and the bookies still think Article

:02:07.:02:09.

50 will probably be triggered before the end of March.

:02:10.:02:12.

But there is a chance it will get messy.

:02:13.:02:16.

Our policy editor Chris Cook is good at making sense of a mess -

:02:17.:02:19.

here's how he thinks things might pan out.

:02:20.:02:20.

To invoke article 50, Downing Street will not

:02:21.:02:29.

need to consult the devolved governments, but will need to pass a

:02:30.:02:32.

In broad terms, Article 50 provides that a

:02:33.:02:40.

country wishing to leave the EU must give a notice in accordance with its

:02:41.:02:44.

Right now, that doesn't look like a serious

:02:45.:02:47.

The first stage then in the Article 50

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process is taking a bill into the House of Commons.

:02:54.:02:56.

Now, the fundamental facts about the lower

:02:57.:03:01.

house of parliament is there is a Conservative majority.

:03:02.:03:03.

So yes, the SNP and the Liberal Democrats might cause

:03:04.:03:08.

trouble for the government, but fundamentally they will not succeed.

:03:09.:03:12.

The only that people are really looking or hoping for from the lower

:03:13.:03:15.

House are really quite narrowly procedural.

:03:16.:03:20.

Here for example, is the Labour position.

:03:21.:03:22.

Labour accepts and respects the referendum result and

:03:23.:03:27.

But we will be seeking to allay amendments to ensure a proper

:03:28.:03:33.

scrutiny and accountability throughout the process.

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That starts, Mr Speaker, with a white paper or

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The government hopes that the bill will be through the

:03:42.:03:47.

Commons by February the 9th when it rises for its next recess.

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Then it is off to the House of Lords which

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is where it is likely to have a tougher time.

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Remember, the government does not have a majority

:03:56.:03:57.

But any problems there are likely to take the form of

:03:58.:04:02.

unhelpful amendments and perhaps a bit of delay.

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On big items, the House of Lords is often restrained by the fact that

:04:05.:04:09.

there was a commitment in a manifesto and by convention the

:04:10.:04:11.

House of Lords does not oppose manifesto commitments.

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But this time, while there was a commitment

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to a referendum, there are certainly was not a commitment to take the UK

:04:17.:04:19.

So some members at least will see that as

:04:20.:04:23.

giving them licence to challenge the government.

:04:24.:04:25.

But ultimately the House of Lords probably will not

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want to be seen to be frustrating the will

:04:28.:04:29.

expressed in the referendum result last year.

:04:30.:04:32.

Now the government says that Parliament will get another

:04:33.:04:34.

opportunity to vote on the deal that it gets

:04:35.:04:38.

from Europe at the end of the process.

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But whether that is an opportunity for Parliament to really

:04:41.:04:44.

scrutinise what is going on and suggest changes, depends on

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precisely when the government comes back for that vote.

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The draft deal has to come back before it has

:04:56.:05:02.

been signed because Parliament can look at it and I dare say, that is

:05:03.:05:05.

fine, or it is mostly fine but this is not,

:05:06.:05:07.

you can get something different or better on this.

:05:08.:05:11.

It is important it comes at that stage, rather than

:05:12.:05:14.

parliament being asked, take it or leave it, at the 11th hour.

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I do not think that would be acceptable.

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Given our rulers have not been much been constrained,

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question today is, why they took this case

:05:22.:05:24.

Well, the Scottish government does not have and has not sought

:05:25.:05:29.

Thanks to the Supreme Court, we now know there is no requirement

:05:30.:05:33.

for a vote in the devolved parliaments or assemblies.

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But, the Scottish parliament is going to have a vote anyway.

:05:37.:05:38.

Earlier I spoke to Alex Salmond, former First Minister,

:05:39.:05:40.

Today he has said Downing Street must treat the devolved

:05:41.:05:52.

administrations as equal partners in the Brexit process, quote,

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I asked where did Theresa May make such a promise.

:05:55.:06:00.

What she and the Tory party have said is that Scotland is an equal

:06:01.:06:06.

Actually, the phrase, not from Theresa May,

:06:07.:06:09.

but from her predecessor was Scotland should lead

:06:10.:06:11.

the United Kingdom, not leave the United Kingdom.

:06:12.:06:15.

But the phrase equal partnership has been used by the Conservative Party,

:06:16.:06:18.

that Scotland is an equal partner within the United Kingdom.

:06:19.:06:20.

If you're an equal partner within the United Kingdom,

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then your views on something as substantial and far reaching

:06:27.:06:34.

as Brexit deserve to be taken on account on an equal basis.

:06:35.:06:37.

It was one person, one vote in Scotland as it was everywhere

:06:38.:06:40.

A Scottish person was equal to everywhere else.

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But Scotland is a country, not a county, and the Scottish

:06:44.:06:45.

nation voted decisively to stay within the European Union.

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But of course, it was Theresa May who said explicitly,

:06:49.:06:51.

the week after she became Prime Minister, when she went

:06:52.:06:55.

to visit Nicola Sturgeon in Scotland, she said she wanted

:06:56.:06:57.

an agreed position across the United Kingdom.

:06:58.:07:02.

You can't have an agreed position, unless you're prepared to consult

:07:03.:07:04.

She is consulting, but I don't think it was understood that the Scottish

:07:05.:07:12.

administration would have equal say on an issue of customs union,

:07:13.:07:16.

immigration policy, foreign policy, international treaties

:07:17.:07:18.

as the government of the United Kingdom,

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in which the people of Scotland have a large shaping part,

:07:24.:07:26.

because they vote in UK general elections, obviously.

:07:27.:07:29.

The vote in favour of staying in the European Union was 62%.

:07:30.:07:34.

The vote in favour of the United Kingdom was 55%.

:07:35.:07:37.

Far more people in Scotland by majority and percentage wanted

:07:38.:07:42.

to stay within Europe as wanted to stay with

:07:43.:07:44.

As you will remember in 2014, one of the cardinal arguments

:07:45.:07:47.

of the No campaign, there were people arguing

:07:48.:07:50.

against independence, was that we would stay in Europe

:07:51.:07:52.

if we voted against Scottish independence.

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It looks absurd, but that was one of the key arguments

:07:55.:07:59.

More to the point, of course, Nicola Sturgeon,

:08:00.:08:03.

the Scottish First Minister, stood on a manifesto commitment last

:08:04.:08:06.

year and was re-elected on the basis that if Scotland was dragged out

:08:07.:08:09.

of Europe against the will of the Scottish people,

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then the Scottish Parliament would have the right to call

:08:12.:08:14.

That brings me to what is the big question for the SNP today.

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The big question for the SNP, why don't you just call a referendum?

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You are not going to learn anything between now and Brexit.

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We know what the British Government's policy on Brexit is,

:08:29.:08:32.

it has been stated by Theresa May as clearly as anything.

:08:33.:08:34.

We know that Scotland is not going to remain

:08:35.:08:36.

in the single market, as the Scottish Government hopes,

:08:37.:08:39.

we know that Britain is not even going to try and stay

:08:40.:08:42.

What else do you need to trigger a referendum?

:08:43.:08:46.

Well let's go through the Parliamentary process as far

:08:47.:08:49.

The UK Government are still to respond officially

:08:50.:08:54.

to the Scottish Government's compromise proposal that

:08:55.:08:56.

if England is determined to leave the single market,

:08:57.:08:59.

Scotland could stay in the single market.

:09:00.:09:02.

There are working examples elsewhere in Europe where this is the case.

:09:03.:09:05.

Why shouldn't that be considered as a reasonable proposal?

:09:06.:09:09.

If at the end of the day Theresa May is not interested in staying

:09:10.:09:13.

in the single market, she is not interested in respecting

:09:14.:09:15.

the wishes of the people of Scotland to stay within the single market,

:09:16.:09:20.

maintain jobs and investment, then of course if she flings down

:09:21.:09:22.

the gauntlet, I fully expect Nicola Sturgeon to pick it up.

:09:23.:09:28.

Well then we do expect a referendum, because she is not going to give

:09:29.:09:31.

you different status within the single market.

:09:32.:09:33.

There are all sorts of practical challenges and difficulties.

:09:34.:09:36.

There is a working example in Europe at the moment for a country

:09:37.:09:49.

which has a monetary and customs union with another country

:09:50.:09:52.

and one is in the single market and one isn't.

:09:53.:09:54.

That is Lichtenstein and Switzerland.

:09:55.:09:58.

If you intend to implement control of labour at the workplace

:09:59.:10:02.

for a green card system as Theresa May does,

:10:03.:10:05.

there is no impediment to Scotland being within the single market

:10:06.:10:08.

It of course has complexities, but anything about Brexit has

:10:09.:10:15.

complexities and this is a practical proposition.

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Why shouldn't the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom pay attention

:10:17.:10:25.

to the wishes of the Scottish people, the Scottish Parliament

:10:26.:10:27.

I am I suppose curious as to why you're offering

:10:28.:10:31.

this rather complicated, and it would be complicated,

:10:32.:10:37.

settlement when there is a much more simple one facing you,

:10:38.:10:39.

which is to call a referendum and just let the Scottish people decide.

:10:40.:10:42.

What is it that the Scottish people....

:10:43.:10:46.

Is it because the polls are against you?

:10:47.:10:49.

Right, OK, let's take these points in turn.

:10:50.:10:53.

There is nothing as complicated as the Brexit process,

:10:54.:10:55.

There is already going to be we know special deals

:10:56.:11:01.

There is already going to be we know special deals for Northern Ireland,

:11:02.:11:04.

for Gibraltar, perhaps even for the City of London,

:11:05.:11:08.

for the car industry in Sunderland, and if there can be a special deal

:11:09.:11:11.

for the car industry in Sunderland, then I think there might

:11:12.:11:14.

be a special deal for the nation of Scotland.

:11:15.:11:16.

If the Prime Minister does not want to accede to any of these

:11:17.:11:19.

reasonable compromise proposals from Nicola Sturgeon, then

:11:20.:11:21.

as Nicola Sturgeon has rightly said, an independence referendum

:11:22.:11:25.

And it will take place within the next two years.

:11:26.:11:31.

As for support for it, there have been 16 polls

:11:32.:11:34.

since the Brexit vote in the United Kingdom.

:11:35.:11:39.

15 of these polls have shown support at a higher level than the 45%

:11:40.:11:42.

I have seen a poll that 62% of Scottish people don't want

:11:43.:11:50.

The question was wanted a referendum in 2017.

:11:51.:11:59.

I would vote against a referendum this year, as indeed

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Nicola Sturgeon's proposition in these circumstances

:12:02.:12:08.

with a compromise proposal rejected is to have a referendum

:12:09.:12:11.

within the negotiating period of two years.

:12:12.:12:14.

Would you accept that if there is another referendum, that is it.

:12:15.:12:17.

You cannot win on the best-of-3 at that stage.

:12:18.:12:20.

If it is two-nil, it is over and this time really

:12:21.:12:24.

it is over for 30, 50 years, it cannot come back

:12:25.:12:30.

If the Prime Minister decides to ignore the substantial demand

:12:31.:12:37.

in the UK as a whole to stay in the single market place,

:12:38.:12:41.

if she then decides to ignore the wishes of Scotland

:12:42.:12:45.

to maintain our 1000 year connection and history with Europe

:12:46.:12:48.

as a European nation, in that context, if there

:12:49.:12:52.

is a referendum within the next two years, then the Yes side will win.

:12:53.:12:55.

For some reason, it is Labour that is perhaps struggling

:12:56.:13:03.

with the consequences of this Supreme Court verdict more

:13:04.:13:09.

If Parliament is to vote, then Labour has to make up its mind

:13:10.:13:15.

as to exactly what it's position is - and yet it has given a good

:13:16.:13:18.

impression of being in a muddle - keen to support Brexit

:13:19.:13:21.

as that was the result of the referendum, but also having

:13:22.:13:24.

lots of Remain supporters it can't ignore.

:13:25.:13:25.

It's kind of stuck between Ukip in some blue collar neighbourhoods,

:13:26.:13:28.

and the Lib Dems in university towns.

:13:29.:13:30.

Nick Watt has been looking at where the parties stand.

:13:31.:13:34.

For the best part of three decades Europe has cast a shadow over the

:13:35.:13:42.

Conservative Party. Now at the very moment many Tories have been

:13:43.:13:46.

expecting a split of historic proportions, it is the Labour Party

:13:47.:13:51.

that is wrestling with this most troublesome of issues. The bulk of

:13:52.:13:56.

the Conservative Party accepts Theresa May's timetable for

:13:57.:14:01.

triggering Article 50 and her Brexit blueprint. As for the Labour Party

:14:02.:14:05.

they are struggling to fashion a coherent response. Many Labour MPs

:14:06.:14:14.

are trying to work out how to adapt their pro-EU views while

:14:15.:14:17.

representing constituencies that recorded high Leave votes in the

:14:18.:14:22.

referendum. I campaigned passionately for remain and I'd

:14:23.:14:25.

lived and worked in Brussels for years and I am marriage to someone

:14:26.:14:31.

from Denmark and I am pro-European with my heart and head but I am also

:14:32.:14:37.

a Democrat. The referendum has overridden the way I would look at

:14:38.:14:41.

the European question and now we have to accept the reality of where

:14:42.:14:46.

we are, and pushed the government to secure the best possible deal for

:14:47.:14:51.

the British people. It was but half a generation ago that Labour's

:14:52.:14:56.

support for the EU was an electoral asset. Now the referendum has

:14:57.:15:00.

changed everything, presenting Labour with a daunting challenge.

:15:01.:15:06.

Labour will never appeal to people fervently pro-European and die-hard

:15:07.:15:11.

Brexiteer is. It hurts to try to change the terms of the conversation

:15:12.:15:17.

and reach out to people who did not feel strongly in either direction,

:15:18.:15:20.

which means not talking about Brexit any more. While the conversation is

:15:21.:15:24.

about Brexit vapour is in a weak position. He believes it is

:15:25.:15:31.

providing rich pickings for other parties. Since the general election,

:15:32.:15:35.

it is estimated Labour has lost the highest number of votes to the Lib

:15:36.:15:42.

Dems. 400,000. It has also lost votes to the Conservatives and

:15:43.:15:47.

200,000 to Ukip. The Labour Party in complete disarray. They do not know

:15:48.:15:51.

what they think. You talk to Labour MPs on the issue and you get

:15:52.:15:58.

different answers. The Labour Party should be getting behind voting to

:15:59.:16:01.

trigger Article 50 but I have spoken to some today who say they will

:16:02.:16:05.

still try to frustrate the process. One unlikely voiced sympathisers

:16:06.:16:13.

with Labour. I am sympathetic to Jeremy Corbyn because I think he is

:16:14.:16:17.

finding problems that any Labour leader would find and they are not

:16:18.:16:22.

specific to him. He is a symptom, not decors, of the division with the

:16:23.:16:27.

London voters thinking one thing and broadly be more than voters thinking

:16:28.:16:33.

another. Jacob Rees-Mogg believes his party has an opportunity

:16:34.:16:37.

unprecedented in the modern era. The Conservative Party is probably more

:16:38.:16:41.

united on Europe than it has been since the days of Anthony Eden. Mrs

:16:42.:16:46.

May is in the position of having less opposition than almost any

:16:47.:16:50.

Conservative leader probably in history. That she has a united

:16:51.:16:56.

party, there is no internal position. Stephen Kinnock believes

:16:57.:17:00.

all may not be lost his party. The government has a mandate to take the

:17:01.:17:05.

UK out of the EU. They do not have a mandate to turn us into some sort of

:17:06.:17:09.

European version of the Cayman Islands. Brexit is not an excuse for

:17:10.:17:16.

making a bonfire of workers' rights and of environmental rights, of

:17:17.:17:20.

slashing the minimum wage, slashing corporation tax, deconstruction of

:17:21.:17:26.

the welfare state this country is built on. This government does not

:17:27.:17:30.

have a mandate to do that and our job is to draw those battle lines.

:17:31.:17:36.

In the space of a fuel years, the UK has experienced two landmark

:17:37.:17:39.

referendums and it has been Labour that has faced acute challenges in

:17:40.:17:43.

the aftermath. The party will be hoping that the shadow cast by

:17:44.:17:48.

Brexit will lift, although ironically, it may take a definitive

:17:49.:17:56.

rake with the EU to allow Labour to return to a more natural terrain.

:17:57.:18:00.

Shadow Foreign Secretary Emily Thornberry joins us.

:18:01.:18:08.

I know what the Lib Dems think of the EU and I know where Theresa May

:18:09.:18:18.

stands. I would find it hard to say where labour stands at the moment.

:18:19.:18:23.

Just in a couple of sentences, what is your policy. Do you really know

:18:24.:18:28.

where the lead Dems stand, they only have a group of blind and the last

:18:29.:18:32.

time they had to vote on Article 50 half of them voted one way and the

:18:33.:18:39.

other half another. -- Lib Dems. In a couple of sentences what is the

:18:40.:18:42.

Labour position on what happens now, not on the process but on what we

:18:43.:18:47.

want and where we want to be. The British people have spoken, we have

:18:48.:18:51.

our instructions, we have got to make sure we get the best possible

:18:52.:18:54.

deal. We believe that begins with the economy. No one voted to be

:18:55.:19:02.

poorer or to lose their job. And on that point you are no different to

:19:03.:19:06.

Theresa May because she believes we want as much market access as

:19:07.:19:10.

possible, we want investment. She is not willing to pay the price for

:19:11.:19:16.

that market access, by giving up control of our borders. Are you

:19:17.:19:20.

saying you would have less control of the border is then Theresa May is

:19:21.:19:24.

advocating? I think there are differences in terms of emphasis but

:19:25.:19:31.

I think the speech she made, she was trying to ride two wars is at once

:19:32.:19:34.

going in different directions. It is our job as the opposition and we are

:19:35.:19:39.

only the opposition, we have got to hold her to account, there are parts

:19:40.:19:43.

of her speech we like, we like the idea of a tariff free access to the

:19:44.:19:47.

single market. We like they're not being a build-up of red tape, that

:19:48.:19:52.

is the kind of thing we like to hear and yes we will support her on that.

:19:53.:19:59.

We want to make sure negotiations go that way. But when she talks about

:20:00.:20:03.

some kind of weird new customs union entirely built for the UK or says if

:20:04.:20:06.

we do not get the deal then we're going to become a completely

:20:07.:20:09.

different country, break the economic model. This is what she

:20:10.:20:14.

said. She said she wanted to break the economic model, attract in. That

:20:15.:20:21.

was the back-up plan. She can only threaten if she means it and she

:20:22.:20:24.

means if she does not get her own way she will try to attract business

:20:25.:20:29.

here by lowering corporation tax and by making it more attractive. That

:20:30.:20:39.

means less money for... I know what your critique of her youth. What I

:20:40.:20:45.

want to know is if there an alternative vision to Brexit to the

:20:46.:20:50.

one that says we get control back of the borders, we leave the single

:20:51.:20:53.

market and customs union and fight for as much access as we can get

:20:54.:20:58.

after that. That sounds as if that is what your position is. You're not

:20:59.:21:02.

talking about free movement. What we're saying is that our first

:21:03.:21:07.

principle, what is most important is that we look after the economy. For

:21:08.:21:12.

any government what is most important is safety and security of

:21:13.:21:16.

citizens and second is the economy. But all economists will tell you

:21:17.:21:22.

free movement is the price you pay to get the best market access and

:21:23.:21:27.

that is good for the economy. If we are not going to be in the single

:21:28.:21:31.

market and we have to have a custom made deal for the UK, then there

:21:32.:21:36.

will need to be negotiations and we have made it clear we will not die

:21:37.:21:40.

in a ditch for freedom of movement. There needs to be give-and-take this

:21:41.:21:43.

but the priority is to make sure no one loses their job and we look

:21:44.:21:48.

after the economy. Because people who are just keeping their heads

:21:49.:21:52.

above water will be those who are most affected if the economy goes

:21:53.:21:57.

backwards. This is entirely consistent with Labour values. But

:21:58.:22:01.

the trade-off between market access, and control of the borders, I'm not

:22:02.:22:11.

100% clear where you are on that. Suppose you have knocked on my door

:22:12.:22:15.

is a member of the public and I say, tell me what your policy is on

:22:16.:22:22.

Europe. In a punter friendly style. I have just told you. So priority on

:22:23.:22:27.

the economy. What about immigration question what our policy is that we

:22:28.:22:32.

will not die in a ditch for freedom of movement. That argue for or

:22:33.:22:38.

against. For free movement or against it? We're not against

:22:39.:22:44.

immigration, we have always been in favour of their rules and managed

:22:45.:22:48.

migration and that continues to be the Labour policy. So in favour of

:22:49.:22:54.

free movement but not going to die in a ditch for it. So you would keep

:22:55.:23:00.

it and get good market access? We're not going to be doing the

:23:01.:23:05.

negotiations and our job as opposition is to make sure the

:23:06.:23:07.

government does not lose sight of the overwhelming importance of jobs

:23:08.:23:12.

and living standards. And the economy. We do not need them, we do

:23:13.:23:18.

not trust them to go off on their own and negotiate on our behalf in

:23:19.:23:21.

Europe without us keeping an eye on them. And so today we said the

:23:22.:23:27.

Article 50 if it is going to be triggered, we will not get in the

:23:28.:23:32.

way but try to amend the legislation in order to ensure that they keep

:23:33.:23:35.

coming back, that would keep an eye on it and if necessary they will be

:23:36.:23:39.

hand-to-hand combat on this. We need to make sure we get the best deal

:23:40.:23:43.

for the country and she cannot say that she acts on behalf of the whole

:23:44.:23:49.

country without negotiating with Parliament and Westminster

:23:50.:23:50.

parliament, listening to the views of the British people. We represent

:23:51.:23:56.

important parts of the and people said Labour is in such difficulties,

:23:57.:24:02.

but will represent the country. The fact is, ... They represent more of

:24:03.:24:10.

it because they got more votes. But the mixture of use with the Labour

:24:11.:24:13.

Party reflects that of the public. The way in which we're thinking

:24:14.:24:17.

about this with more depth I think that the Tories is a good thing and

:24:18.:24:21.

we can contribute and help but they need to listen. One of the things,

:24:22.:24:30.

the lines has been you will not let the government turn the UK into an

:24:31.:24:34.

offshore Cayman Islands. Will that be an amendment to the Article 50

:24:35.:24:39.

Bill? Let us first see what the bill is. It might be a couple of line.

:24:40.:24:48.

Maybe, maybe not. You could put in an amendment saying the UK must not

:24:49.:24:55.

become a tax haven or aim to... But there's no point anyway because a

:24:56.:24:58.

future government could change its mind on that. There will be a number

:24:59.:25:03.

of things. The first thing is the plan may be a piece of paper with

:25:04.:25:10.

plan written on the top but it is a speech she did not make an

:25:11.:25:13.

Parliament and therefore was not answerable to questions. So we want

:25:14.:25:17.

a white paper, a clear plan so we can help them to account. She is

:25:18.:25:22.

promising everything to everyone, let's have it written down and told

:25:23.:25:27.

her to it. Then the broad principles, what are they, when you

:25:28.:25:30.

are negotiating we want to be able to set lines in the sand. And then

:25:31.:25:36.

most importantly, the accountability so as you go along, you must keep

:25:37.:25:40.

reporting back. We should hold you to account and the final vote should

:25:41.:25:45.

not be at the 11th hour when basically it is take it or leave it.

:25:46.:25:50.

All processed stuff. If there's not much difference between you and...

:25:51.:25:55.

There's a lot of difference between our approach and that of the Tories.

:25:56.:25:59.

Do you accept, one of the difficulties is the country, the

:26:00.:26:08.

great schism is Remain or Brexit. And the opposition, accepting the

:26:09.:26:11.

Brexit result, it puts you in a difficult position because in a

:26:12.:26:16.

sense you are not on either side of the great fissure in politics. In

:26:17.:26:20.

the end you cannot have political parties to go for one half of the

:26:21.:26:23.

other which is what the other parties are doing. The fact that we

:26:24.:26:26.

are trying to bring the country together under the principle that we

:26:27.:26:31.

need to look after the economy and get the best deal on behalf of the

:26:32.:26:36.

whole country, is something we can unify the country around. We're not

:26:37.:26:41.

going to chase 40%, or the extreme part of 52%, we will do our utmost

:26:42.:26:44.

to ensure we stand up for the whole country and shall be listened to. We

:26:45.:26:46.

will make sure that we are. A four-year-old Muslim girl

:26:47.:26:50.

is at the centre of a row She was reportedly

:26:51.:26:52.

told she couldn't wear a hijab - a headscarf -

:26:53.:26:55.

by her Catholic primary school. The school was accused

:26:56.:26:58.

by one councillor of In contrast, some Muslims have

:26:59.:27:00.

pointed out pre-pubescent girls are not mandated to wear

:27:01.:27:03.

the headscarf at all. But it's another case in the great

:27:04.:27:07.

national discussion about the right boundary between tolerance

:27:08.:27:09.

and non-conformity. Should a four-year-

:27:10.:27:12.

old be wearing a hijab Katie Razzall has been to Birmingham

:27:13.:27:14.

to find out what's been going on. It's a regular morning for these

:27:15.:27:22.

seven and eight-year-olds at Birmingham's Anderton Park

:27:23.:27:24.

primary school. In this classroom today five

:27:25.:27:31.

of the girls were dressed in hijabs, the traditional head covering

:27:32.:27:33.

sometimes worn by Muslim women. Here, headscarves are allowed

:27:34.:27:35.

as long as they're purple or white. With some pupils in every year

:27:36.:27:38.

opting to wear them, the headteacher is relaxed

:27:39.:27:41.

about their choices. I think sometimes some of these

:27:42.:27:46.

cultural practices like very young girls wearing a headscarf,

:27:47.:27:49.

is just because that has always been done and maybe the families have

:27:50.:27:52.

never questioned it. And often here girls may come

:27:53.:27:54.

in in a headscarf at nine o'clock in the morning and then they're hot

:27:55.:27:57.

or they have got PE and they just take it off and it is off

:27:58.:28:00.

for the rest of the day. But another Birmingham School,

:28:01.:28:04.

Catholic Saint Clare's, is under fire from a local Labour

:28:05.:28:09.

councillor who weighed in after parents reportedly

:28:10.:28:12.

complained to him that the school had banned their four-year-old

:28:13.:28:14.

from wearing a hijab. This school has a strict

:28:15.:28:19.

uniform policy. Amongst the prohibitions,

:28:20.:28:21.

no dyed hair, no beads or coloured It is clearly outlined

:28:22.:28:23.

on their website, so they may have been surprised to find themselves

:28:24.:28:30.

at the centre of a row over a hijab. The row appeared on social media

:28:31.:28:37.

when a man complained his four-year-old niece got detention

:28:38.:28:40.

from school because she The local councillor, Waseem Zaffar,

:28:41.:28:42.

replied saying he had already met the headteacher to discuss

:28:43.:28:48.

the matter, clearly outlining to her

:28:49.:28:50.

that this policy contravenes He continued he was insisting this

:28:51.:28:53.

matter is addressed ASAP Neither the school nor Mr Zaffar,

:28:54.:28:58.

who is Birmingham Council's cabinet member for equality,

:28:59.:29:03.

would talk to Newsnight about the issue, which has

:29:04.:29:06.

been widely reported But at the school gates this

:29:07.:29:08.

afternoon, the only parent who would go on camera did not

:29:09.:29:14.

support Saint Clare's approach. It is the 21st century and we should

:29:15.:29:18.

be tolerant towards other religions and cultures,

:29:19.:29:21.

actually, as well. We are Christians and Catholics

:29:22.:29:27.

but never mind about the scarves, it The Equalities Act makes

:29:28.:29:30.

no mention of uniform, but caselaw precedents do suggest

:29:31.:29:38.

if a pupil cannot attend a school unless they remove an item

:29:39.:29:42.

necessary for their faith, that is discriminatory

:29:43.:29:44.

and potentially illegal. That is not what is

:29:45.:29:48.

happening here, though. According to some Muslim activists

:29:49.:29:50.

who argue even if you do believe girls should wear headscarves,

:29:51.:29:53.

that only kicks in at puberty. They haven't done anything wrong,

:29:54.:29:58.

they're not breaching any I would not want to start endorsing

:29:59.:30:00.

and supporting the idea of girls wearing the headscarf

:30:01.:30:04.

in primary schools. We must not normalise it and instead

:30:05.:30:09.

of supporting that practice I think we should actually question it

:30:10.:30:12.

because actually, what you are doing So is this about curtailing

:30:13.:30:14.

religious freedoms, or cultural practices,

:30:15.:30:23.

that some might see as misogynistic? A government commission review

:30:24.:30:26.

on social integration recently found that some women are being held back

:30:27.:30:30.

by regressive practices, justified in the name

:30:31.:30:34.

of culture or religion. Newsnight has previously reported

:30:35.:30:37.

on claims that some Muslim men within the Labour Party have been

:30:38.:30:40.

accused of misogyny. Today, one female Muslim

:30:41.:30:44.

councillor told us, this hijab When a Labour councillor

:30:45.:30:47.

says that, it shocks me. But it did not surprise me,

:30:48.:30:54.

I hear all sorts of things behind closed doors,

:30:55.:30:57.

which are not good enough. And as a Labour councillor

:30:58.:30:59.

that is on a Cabinet, a strong Labour authority,

:31:00.:31:01.

where we know there has been issues before, there has been

:31:02.:31:04.

Trojan Horse scandals, you have done

:31:05.:31:06.

investigations yourself. Where it feels like the party is not

:31:07.:31:09.

taking these things seriously, we need to have zero tolerance

:31:10.:31:12.

on this kind of behaviour. Birmingham Council told Newsnight

:31:13.:31:15.

school governing bodies decide on uniform but that it is working

:31:16.:31:18.

with Saint Clare's to make sure its policy is in line

:31:19.:31:23.

with legal requirements as well as talking to all schools

:31:24.:31:28.

in the area to ensure The posts on Facebook

:31:29.:31:31.

by the councillor who sparked this row have apparently

:31:32.:31:35.

now been removed. Mark Urban, our diplomatic editor

:31:36.:31:39.

has been in the US but is here now. A change of tack on

:31:40.:31:49.

the Keystone Pipeline. You had better explain. It is a

:31:50.:31:58.

pipeline running from Canadian oil fields, or is meant to, into the

:31:59.:32:04.

American system, stopped by President Obama in 2015 and Donald

:32:05.:32:08.

Trump this morning made an executive order to try to get it going and the

:32:09.:32:12.

Dakota Access pipeline under construction stopped by lawsuits.

:32:13.:32:18.

The aim is to announce big and bold, we put American jobs, American steel

:32:19.:32:23.

to build these pipelines, America's energy needs ahead of tree hugging

:32:24.:32:28.

people and we will drive a bulldozer through them. That is the aim and at

:32:29.:32:37.

the same time infuriating environmentalists and Native

:32:38.:32:44.

American groups. Basically trying to push a bulldozer through. There is

:32:45.:32:51.

announcement of infrastructure projects in the coming weeks.

:32:52.:32:54.

Foreign policy, more your beat. I am afraid we have been waiting in vain

:32:55.:33:01.

with rumours that among the first orders will move the US embassy in

:33:02.:33:06.

Israel to Jerusalem which did not happen and a cautious tone from the

:33:07.:33:10.

embattled press secretary implying no decision had been made. Other

:33:11.:33:14.

things we expected potentially on the Iran nuclear deal, Chinese

:33:15.:33:20.

currency manipulation, so-called, they haven't happened. It is

:33:21.:33:24.

fascinating. There is a desire to make the running with these big

:33:25.:33:29.

domestic job creation type projects that are key to his agenda and his

:33:30.:33:32.

base. They said today the administration, look, Congress has

:33:33.:33:39.

been so slow to approve foreign policy choices we are behind. You

:33:40.:33:43.

may see them coming together next week with a meeting with the

:33:44.:33:46.

President of Mexico, where the trade agenda I think will come to the

:33:47.:33:47.

fore. Let's finish by reflecting

:33:48.:33:52.

on the story of the day - the Supreme Court verdict

:33:53.:33:55.

and the path to Brexit, which is I am joined by author and journalist

:33:56.:34:09.

Sonia Pernell and the sun's political journalist. And the

:34:10.:34:20.

Guardian, 's Owen Jones. We have been speaking about the problems of

:34:21.:34:24.

labour. Do you get depressed that the left right schism has been blown

:34:25.:34:32.

apart by the Brexit Remain schism. And Jeremy Corbyn, to bring the left

:34:33.:34:35.

populism to the people is not being heard? Depressed about politics, me?

:34:36.:34:43.

Nothing to be depressed about! Clearly we have a divided country,

:34:44.:34:49.

polarised on an issue that modern with -- that will dominate a long

:34:50.:34:55.

time. Jacob Rees-Mogg alludes to this, the unique problem Labour has

:34:56.:35:00.

is in its electoral coalition it has people who live in London,

:35:01.:35:04.

Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool, who feel traumatised in the

:35:05.:35:08.

aftermath of the referendum and they want it to go away. You have Labour

:35:09.:35:14.

voters in Doncaster, Burnley, who feel they have their country back

:35:15.:35:19.

and it is difficult to reconcile the different perspectives. Brexit is

:35:20.:35:24.

not just about the EU. If anything the EU is long down the list in

:35:25.:35:29.

terms of what the referendum conjured up with immigration,

:35:30.:35:33.

multiculturalism, social issues, I suppose. You get groups of people

:35:34.:35:42.

with different outlooks on life. When you want a Labour opposition to

:35:43.:35:47.

have a clear take on the people on the top, vested interests, to talk

:35:48.:35:56.

about tax Justice, investment, cuts. Does it make you worried that the

:35:57.:36:01.

coalition that is the Labour Party is past its sell-by date because the

:36:02.:36:06.

two groups do not agree with each other on the big issues of the day?

:36:07.:36:13.

It does need to adapt. All over Europe social democracy is in

:36:14.:36:18.

crisis. It does not matter if the leaders of these parties on the left

:36:19.:36:22.

or right. In Germany, the Labour sister party, their leader supports

:36:23.:36:32.

third way style policy. He would probably be envious of Labour's

:36:33.:36:36.

terrible polling in this country. There are few countries where it is

:36:37.:36:42.

doing well. You get across Europe be centre-left and a rising radical

:36:43.:36:48.

left who argue with each other but that is often displace Durie from

:36:49.:36:52.

both wings that their lack of a clear route and vision to power and

:36:53.:36:56.

a clear strategy and all sections, if you believe in a different

:36:57.:37:01.

Britain, different Europe, in those other countries, there is a big ask

:37:02.:37:06.

about how you build a coalition and that coalition has changed. It is

:37:07.:37:11.

not the industrial working class, more people going to university. Let

:37:12.:37:18.

me put it to the others. Are you selling your shares in Labour? I

:37:19.:37:23.

would but what we have is a complete vacuum of leadership and they have

:37:24.:37:29.

to decide where they are, and be brave and decide what they are going

:37:30.:37:33.

to do and stick to it and fight for it and vote accordingly in

:37:34.:37:38.

Parliament. The Supreme Court said it is up to politicians to take it

:37:39.:37:43.

forward. It is now up to Parliament to make a decision. MPs are not

:37:44.:37:48.

delegates, they are representatives, not legally bound to vote, they

:37:49.:37:52.

should vote with their conscious. The leadership of the party should

:37:53.:37:56.

allow them to do so. Tom, do you have advice for Labour? Very happy

:37:57.:38:06.

to offer advice. Sonia is right. They will be in a terrible mess for

:38:07.:38:12.

as long as they try, as Owen pointed out, to straddle this giant fissure.

:38:13.:38:20.

If they give up one side they will lose half their market. We have seen

:38:21.:38:26.

it before. The Scottish referendum, by almost no fault of their own,

:38:27.:38:30.

they have been split by two giant referendums. What Labour need to

:38:31.:38:38.

realise is the existential threat. It is not a problem that will

:38:39.:38:43.

resolve in a few months, with a few cheeky votes in parliament. There is

:38:44.:38:51.

a poll for the Stoke by-election by the John Bell sponsored Labour

:38:52.:38:55.

outfit. The first on that by-election which has the leader of

:38:56.:39:01.

Ukip ten points ahead already. If you want a list of candidates in the

:39:02.:39:07.

by-election, go to the BBC website. A ten point lead for Paul Nuttall.

:39:08.:39:16.

Labour on 25%. 80% of his supporters come from Labour voters. Is this the

:39:17.:39:28.

fissure that divides the nation. I wonder out there there are people

:39:29.:39:33.

who don't much care about it? There was another poll saying more people

:39:34.:39:37.

were concerned about what is happening in the NHS than with

:39:38.:39:41.

Brexit. These issues get conflated. Again, go back to leadership. You

:39:42.:39:47.

need a leader of the Labour Party, whichever party will replace it, to

:39:48.:39:51.

take the position and stick at it and say it will be better for the

:39:52.:39:56.

NHS and employment. We don't have that. We have no opposition. Where

:39:57.:40:04.

have all the Tory Remain people gone? Why are they acquiescing? I

:40:05.:40:13.

think they are biding their time. Their numbers are strong. There are

:40:14.:40:22.

those brave enough to give David Davis a hard time as they did in the

:40:23.:40:27.

Commons. The likes of George Osborne, a lot of people remain

:40:28.:40:33.

silent. They know it is the wrong time to wave their flags. Theresa

:40:34.:40:37.

May has momentum behind her. It will get a lot more difficult for her. At

:40:38.:40:42.

the moment it feels she is making the running. This is the early

:40:43.:40:48.

skirmishes of what will be giant warfare. Do you agree? What Theresa

:40:49.:40:55.

May has done has made Brexit is like a cult. If you don't belong to it,

:40:56.:41:01.

you are shunned, you do not get on TV, do not get asked to parties and

:41:02.:41:08.

you are excluded. A lot of people are afraid to stick their heads

:41:09.:41:13.

above the parapet. Are you optimistic for a post Brexit

:41:14.:41:19.

Britain? Are you down on it? At the moment, the odds are it is a deal

:41:20.:41:25.

that prioritises jobs, the economy, not looking great. Turning Britain

:41:26.:41:32.

into a giant tax haven that would mean cutting public services would

:41:33.:41:37.

chill everyone. In British politics, if it is about our relationship to

:41:38.:41:44.

the European Union, rather than say, like we have gone through the

:41:45.:41:47.

longest fall in living standards is the 19th century, that squeeze will

:41:48.:41:52.

come back. The housing crisis, the lack of secure jobs, which is why

:41:53.:41:55.

many communities voted to leave, because they felt they had lost

:41:56.:42:01.

control of their communities. Education, the NHS. Labour needs and

:42:02.:42:10.

this is its task ahead, while keeping the electoral coalition

:42:11.:42:15.

together, to have a coherent alternative on those issues and try

:42:16.:42:19.

to shift the debate so we are not just talking about the EU for the

:42:20.:42:24.

next 50 years at this rate. There are other things that need to be

:42:25.:42:30.

addressed. Thanks. That is all we have time for. Amelie will be here

:42:31.:42:32.

tomorrow. Good night.

:42:33.:42:44.