01/02/2017 Newsnight


01/02/2017

With Evan Davis. Parliament bends before the public will and votes to begin the Brexit process. Plus, foreign people using the NHS and the US public and Trump.


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Transcript


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The ayes to the right, 498. The noes to the left, 118.

:00:12.:00:21.

The Commons votes for Brexit, despite the fact that

:00:22.:00:24.

an overwhelming majority of MPs campaigned against it.

:00:25.:00:26.

Parliament and the public expressed different views, and it's

:00:27.:00:30.

That is an event quite unprecedented in our parliamentary history,

:00:31.:00:38.

whereby popular sovereignty is trumping parliamentary sovereignty.

:00:39.:00:42.

To vote against the majority verdict of the largest democratic exercise

:00:43.:00:46.

in British history, I think, would risk putting

:00:47.:00:50.

an overwhelming vote for Brexit, Labour was split three ways

:00:51.:01:02.

and hit by resignations, and there were hints

:01:03.:01:04.

We'll ask Remainer MPs if now is the time

:01:05.:01:07.

to submit to public opinion, or whether they should

:01:08.:01:09.

Also tonight, the case of the Nigerian quadruplets born

:01:10.:01:14.

in a British hospital at a cost of ?330,000.

:01:15.:01:20.

OK, I do understand that it's a very difficult time for you, but we do

:01:21.:01:25.

We'll debate the rights and wrongs of allowing

:01:26.:01:31.

US soldiers dealing with their experiences in Iraq.

:01:32.:01:47.

But the Taiwanese-born director has his own worries

:01:48.:01:49.

It's nerve-wracking, very uncomfortable.

:01:50.:02:12.

Well, we voted them in 21 months ago, and today MPs did

:02:13.:02:22.

the country's bidding, taking an historic step

:02:23.:02:23.

towards taking Britain out of the European Union,

:02:24.:02:25.

against, for most, their own judgement on the matter.

:02:26.:02:32.

Our political editor Nick Watt has been watching. 500 out of 650, the

:02:33.:02:40.

speaker and the Deputy Speaker do not speak, it was a significant,

:02:41.:02:44.

historical moment, quite an emotional time, I spoke to a

:02:45.:02:48.

Remained visited just before voting and they said it was the worst but

:02:49.:02:53.

they had ever cast and then I spoke to a happy The minister who said,

:02:54.:02:57.

I've been waiting all my life to do that. Downing Street are delighted

:02:58.:03:10.

with the vote, one reason is that they feel it is less likely that the

:03:11.:03:13.

House of Lords can delay the bill, and that is significant because

:03:14.:03:16.

Theresa May wants to get on and trigger Article 50 before her self

:03:17.:03:18.

imposed deadline at the end of March. One possible date is the

:03:19.:03:20.

European Council, March nine and tenth or before that because it

:03:21.:03:23.

needs to be a lengthy formal letter from the UK. The reason they want to

:03:24.:03:26.

get in early is that they have been advised that the European Commission

:03:27.:03:29.

and the European Council will be able to give their formal response

:03:30.:03:33.

before the first round of the French presidential election on April 23

:03:34.:03:39.

but only if they go early. It's all happening, they'll have to worry. If

:03:40.:03:44.

they don't go early the second round of the French election will be May

:03:45.:03:48.

seven and or those who will be president of France by them. Not a

:03:49.:03:55.

great day for Labour. Divided, 47 MPs defied a three line whip, three

:03:56.:04:00.

members of the Shadow Cabinet resigned, although between ten and

:04:01.:04:04.

13 Labour frontbenchers are still in place and as I understand it Jeremy

:04:05.:04:09.

Corbyn is in no rush to do the usual thing, to sack them, he's going to

:04:10.:04:13.

wait for next week and see if any of the amendments we see at the

:04:14.:04:16.

committee stage of the bill will be accepted by the government or voted

:04:17.:04:21.

on by MPs. The significance of that is, if that happens and if the bill

:04:22.:04:25.

is amended, maybe some of those Labour MPs would be able to vote in

:04:26.:04:30.

favour of it. The amendment that seems to be getting cross-party

:04:31.:04:34.

support is by Chris Leslie, former Labour Shadow Chancellor. And this

:04:35.:04:38.

would require the government to hold a parliamentary vote on whatever

:04:39.:04:41.

emerges at the end of the negotiations, deal or no Deal, at

:04:42.:04:45.

the moment they will only be a vote if there is a deal. And what former

:04:46.:04:50.

Tory Remained ministers are saying to the government is, you will be

:04:51.:04:57.

safe, it will be fine, how about a accepting this amendment? Blount

:04:58.:05:00.

will be talking to one the Labour Shadow Cabinet who resigned in a few

:05:01.:05:05.

minutes. Speech of the day George Osborne? I think we'd have to say

:05:06.:05:10.

that. He did say that while he supports Remain he will vote for

:05:11.:05:15.

triggering Article 50 because it would be a constitutional outrage if

:05:16.:05:17.

he tried to thwart the will of the people. But then he made a pointed

:05:18.:05:22.

intervention by saying that the government has decided not to

:05:23.:05:27.

prioritise the economy and they are prioritising controls of immigration

:05:28.:05:30.

and taking the UK out of the jurisdiction of the European Court

:05:31.:05:34.

of Justice. That's quite a thing for a former Chancellor to say who

:05:35.:05:37.

obviously decides to the Leeds. Believes that elections are decided

:05:38.:05:45.

on the economy. Then there will be battles over what form Brexit will

:05:46.:05:48.

take and he ended with the words, I will be in those fights in the

:05:49.:05:52.

couple of years ahead. Nick, thank you. Having given us the referendum

:05:53.:05:58.

most MPs felt they could not ignore it. Most MPs voted in favour of the

:05:59.:06:05.

referendum and then 47 of them voted against invoking Article 50 is a way

:06:06.:06:09.

of accepting the result. And some like Ken Clarke didn't want a

:06:10.:06:12.

referendum in the first place and voted against the result of all.

:06:13.:06:16.

None of us can remember an occasion like it. We know how the nation

:06:17.:06:23.

divides and Brexit but the most striking gap is between MPs and

:06:24.:06:29.

their electorate. Here is the public vote, yellow for Remain, blue for

:06:30.:06:34.

leave. This shows how different local authorities went in the

:06:35.:06:39.

referendum. And here is that the equivalent map for MPs looks based

:06:40.:06:42.

on their declared positions in the referendum. There have often been

:06:43.:06:46.

gaps between rulers and ruled yet the historic norm is that the rulers

:06:47.:06:52.

to get their way. Not this time. The referendum outcome shows how very

:06:53.:06:54.

out of touch the House of Commons is with the people. The only parties in

:06:55.:07:01.

favour of leaving work Ukip, with one MP, and the Democratic Unionist

:07:02.:07:08.

party in Northern Ireland, that makes nine MPs out of 650. The

:07:09.:07:14.

consequence is that for the first time in its history MPs have to vote

:07:15.:07:18.

for a policy which the vast majority of them, around three quarters,

:07:19.:07:23.

oppose. That is an event without precedent in our long parliamentary

:07:24.:07:30.

history. Other countries are familiar with direct democracy, the

:07:31.:07:36.

most famous case in recent decades proposition 13 in California,

:07:37.:07:40.

capping property taxes against the views of the political

:07:41.:07:42.

establishment. The death penalty was reimposed there as well as a public

:07:43.:07:48.

demand. Until recently in the UK, we have tended to go for representative

:07:49.:07:53.

democracy, vote them in and vote them out again if you don't like

:07:54.:08:03.

them. Then came the first Europe vote in 1975. It's beginning to look

:08:04.:08:08.

as if we may not have a single No venting area in Britain itself...

:08:09.:08:12.

But in that case nation and Commons have the same majority view. Europe

:08:13.:08:17.

has driven a coach and horses through the British constitution. We

:08:18.:08:20.

would not have had the idea of a referendum in the first place if not

:08:21.:08:25.

for Europe in 1975, when Harold Wilson used it to hold together a

:08:26.:08:29.

divided Labour Party, just as David Cameron used it to hold together a

:08:30.:08:40.

divided Conservative Party but in this case, by contrast with 1975,

:08:41.:08:42.

the people have voted against the wishes of the government. The

:08:43.:08:44.

Article 50 debate reflected the cognitive dissidents that our

:08:45.:08:48.

legislators feel. The point has been made to me that we are not delegates

:08:49.:08:54.

but when all your neighbours, local business people, local pharmacists,

:08:55.:08:57.

health professionals, your political allies and indeed your political

:08:58.:09:00.

opponents make a point that you have to take a stand on an issue, I feel

:09:01.:09:07.

this is the right course of action. I do accept that Lambeth voted

:09:08.:09:13.

overwhelmingly for Remain but as I have made it very clear this was a

:09:14.:09:18.

UK referendum, not constituency -based referendum... But and in the

:09:19.:09:28.

country how did Remain voters feel the MP should have voted? -- out in

:09:29.:09:30.

the country. Know we've come to the process and had a referendum and a

:09:31.:09:33.

democratic process and people have decided to leave I believe we should

:09:34.:09:39.

follow that process. Our MP is Tim Curran, the leader of the Liberal

:09:40.:09:43.

Democrats. He's going to the wire over the issue of a second

:09:44.:09:46.

referendum -- Tim Farron. Although my party has a three line whip in

:09:47.:09:50.

Westminster it does not have a three line whip on my views so I am very

:09:51.:09:55.

happy with my MP. We lost, that's the way of it, we have to make the

:09:56.:10:00.

most of it and try to unite again as a country and deal with the

:10:01.:10:04.

situation as we find it. He's decided to abstain because he wants

:10:05.:10:10.

to reflect his voters. Their beliefs. I don't believe he's

:10:11.:10:13.

reflecting them enough. I think he should have the courage of his

:10:14.:10:16.

convictions he should be representing us because it is his

:10:17.:10:22.

job. His job to represent us, his constituents. Certainly some mixed

:10:23.:10:29.

views from Remain voters. Was today the day for them to fold behind the

:10:30.:10:35.

majority? Earlier I spoke to two MPs who have campaigned to Remain yet to

:10:36.:10:41.

different decisions today, Nicky Morgan, the former Education

:10:42.:10:43.

Secretary, voted in favour of Article 50, she said, to avoid a

:10:44.:10:47.

constitutional crisis. In Rachael Maskell who resigned as a member of

:10:48.:10:53.

the Labour Shadow Cabinet to read against Article 50. I first asked

:10:54.:10:54.

Nicky Morgan if she had found it Well, I was quite clear

:10:55.:10:57.

from the autumn onwards, that we needed a short sharp bill

:10:58.:11:04.

to trigger Article 50, that Parliament really,

:11:05.:11:07.

if which we were going to avoid a crisis in our democracy,

:11:08.:11:09.

needed to respect the democratic But of course, as many of us said,

:11:10.:11:12.

we'd really rather not have been in the situation of having this

:11:13.:11:16.

debate and having to Well, Rachael Maskell,

:11:17.:11:19.

you voted against triggering Article 50 last year,

:11:20.:11:21.

before last year you I came here to make sure

:11:22.:11:23.

the people I represent in York What we're trying to do is mesh

:11:24.:11:29.

together a referendum which is one process with a Parliamentary

:11:30.:11:35.

democracy, another process, and through the referendum

:11:36.:11:38.

we saw clearly the way that our constituents voted,

:11:39.:11:41.

and therefore it is incumbent on myself to bring that voice

:11:42.:11:43.

into Westminster, which But you voted for a national

:11:44.:11:45.

referendum, you didn't vote for a referendum in York Central,

:11:46.:11:50.

you voted for a national referendum, do you want to apologise

:11:51.:11:53.

to the public for voting for a national referendum,

:11:54.:11:55.

for which you were not willing We got a question put

:11:56.:11:58.

before us today in a bill, to move forward into a process,

:11:59.:12:04.

where we will be coming out of the single market and out

:12:05.:12:07.

of the customs union. Now I can't even remember that

:12:08.:12:11.

being on the ballot paper last June, and therefore we have an unelected

:12:12.:12:15.

Prime Minister, now moving forward to put forward her own position

:12:16.:12:25.

on how we should move forward. I think what is really important

:12:26.:12:28.

is we listen to where people Because that question was not

:12:29.:12:31.

on the ballot paper. That question wasn't,

:12:32.:12:34.

but the Brexit was, and there's only one model of Brexit on the table

:12:35.:12:37.

and you're voting against it. We know right back last summer

:12:38.:12:44.

there are so many models of Brexit and that's why the different Brexit

:12:45.:12:47.

campaigns couldn't Where we are moving

:12:48.:12:49.

forward to is important. What we have been saying,

:12:50.:12:52.

a people's Brexit is very different from a Theresa May Brexit,

:12:53.:12:54.

where she is going to take us out of the single market,

:12:55.:12:58.

out of the customs union and nobody Do you accept that point you could

:12:59.:13:00.

vote against Article 50 and say, until I get the kind

:13:01.:13:04.

of Brexit I support, I'm not You could have taken

:13:05.:13:07.

that position today. Look, I think we all thought

:13:08.:13:10.

about that, but I don't agree, It is a difficult thing

:13:11.:13:13.

to stand down from a job, in the shadow front

:13:14.:13:17.

bench, everything else. I do think it was incumbent

:13:18.:13:19.

on Parliament to understand how people voted and to pass the bill,

:13:20.:13:21.

and I think that's what hopefully we will see

:13:22.:13:24.

by the time we get to March. There is a separate debate to be had

:13:25.:13:27.

and that's why the publication of the White Paper tomorrow

:13:28.:13:30.

is important, about the terms of Brexit, and I think that

:13:31.:13:33.

many of us in Parliament and many, many thousands, tens of thousands

:13:34.:13:36.

of people outside have very firm views on that,

:13:37.:13:39.

which I hope the Government But you're not going

:13:40.:13:41.

to get that debate. If you nod through Article 50

:13:42.:13:45.

you are going to get Theresa May's Brexit,

:13:46.:13:47.

so you, I mean that is Theresa May has set out the 12

:13:48.:13:49.

pillars in her speech and they will be in the White Paper,

:13:50.:13:58.

but there is a negotiation Parliament needs to be involved

:13:59.:14:02.

in that, not in the process because she will negotiate

:14:03.:14:06.

and Government will negotiate but keeping Parliament updated,

:14:07.:14:10.

keeping an eye on what is happening in our economy, and what people

:14:11.:14:12.

are saying outside is going to be tremendously important,

:14:13.:14:15.

and that's where MPs can really add Hang on, you have just voted not

:14:16.:14:18.

to activate a referendum result. I voted according to the way the

:14:19.:15:06.

people who elected me asked me to. If an amendment comes up,

:15:07.:15:10.

for example, Nicky Morgan, that says yes, we will invoke

:15:11.:15:13.

Article 50, but we negotiate our way Would you support

:15:14.:15:17.

something like that? You clearly believe it,

:15:18.:15:22.

it is consistent with what the public voted for,

:15:23.:15:25.

it is a Brexit model, You would struggle

:15:26.:15:27.

not to vote for that? I wouldn't, because I think

:15:28.:15:31.

that the bill is a process bill I do think that there are amendments

:15:32.:15:40.

down about Parliamentary scrutiny and about the vote at the end

:15:41.:15:44.

and they will be debated next week. I think there is a separate

:15:45.:15:48.

White Paper process about the pillars that the Prime Minister

:15:49.:15:50.

has set out, and I do think, as I say, that Parliament has

:15:51.:15:53.

a really important role in informing ministers about what's happening

:15:54.:15:56.

on the ground in our constituency, what people are saying

:15:57.:15:59.

about the effects on their economy, their businesses, regulations,

:16:00.:16:01.

I am getting lobbied all the time by people who are saying how

:16:02.:16:03.

is this going to work? Can we make sure there is no cliff

:16:04.:16:06.

edge for example, in March 2019? Those things are important

:16:07.:16:10.

ministers hear. Rachael, do you think this indicates

:16:11.:16:12.

a computer collapse of discipline You voted what, threeways, for,

:16:13.:16:14.

against, in between, the party frontbenches,

:16:15.:16:20.

whips, everybody voting What does that say about the state

:16:21.:16:21.

of Labour at the moment? I think you'll find next

:16:22.:16:27.

week as we're talking through the amendments

:16:28.:16:29.

that we will be absolutely solid and making sure we have the process

:16:30.:16:31.

in place to call the Government to account, what we've been trying

:16:32.:16:34.

to do today is to put referendum into a Parliamentary democracy

:16:35.:16:37.

and we need to make sure that systems work as we move forward,

:16:38.:16:40.

because reality is there are two systems that clash, one which is

:16:41.:16:46.

about empowerment and clearly that is what I was doing,

:16:47.:16:50.

empowering the people You are empowering your constituency

:16:51.:16:53.

but ignoring the majority vote in the country that

:16:54.:16:56.

you voted to have. Every single MP has the right

:16:57.:17:00.

to represent those that elect them to Parliament and therefore

:17:01.:17:03.

that was absolutely right that MPs chose to do that today,

:17:04.:17:06.

but as we move forward we clearly are going to have amendments

:17:07.:17:11.

which put the scrutiny process behind this bill,

:17:12.:17:14.

which is absolutely crucial. We have amendments in there,

:17:15.:17:15.

particularly at the end of the process to make sure

:17:16.:17:18.

that the negotiation strategy, You are talking a brave talk here,

:17:19.:17:20.

Rachael, but the truth is your party has been all over the shop,

:17:21.:17:26.

basically, hasn't it. It does come down to the fact that

:17:27.:17:28.

some of them believe you have to stick with the result

:17:29.:17:31.

of what the voters said, and some like you have said,

:17:32.:17:34.

I want to go my own way or the way We're really clear as a party

:17:35.:17:38.

that we do not want a hard Brexit, a Theresa May Brexit,

:17:39.:17:45.

where she has gone and determined And what we have said,

:17:46.:17:48.

is that a people's Brexit would be incredibly different

:17:49.:17:52.

from what she has set out. She hasn't followed

:17:53.:17:55.

the will of the people, she has set out her own terms

:17:56.:17:58.

and we saw, just over the weekend, how easy it is that she could give

:17:59.:18:01.

away that power, to other countries and if you're signing trade

:18:02.:18:04.

agreements I would have to say where is the Parliamentary democracy

:18:05.:18:07.

in those processes? So there is much to discuss over

:18:08.:18:10.

the coming two years and we will certainly be

:18:11.:18:13.

at the table for that. Rachael Maskell, Nicky

:18:14.:18:15.

Morgan, thanks both. It seems more than twelve days since

:18:16.:18:20.

President Trump's inauguration, and the new normal arrived

:18:21.:18:23.

in US politics. Well, you can look at polls,

:18:24.:18:26.

the approval ratings But even better than polls,

:18:27.:18:30.

you can talk to people. Particularly those

:18:31.:18:35.

who voted for him. Yalda Hakim is in rural

:18:36.:18:37.

Pennsylvania, trying to find out Pennsylvania, Donald

:18:38.:18:39.

Trump's heartland. I can't believe that,

:18:40.:18:51.

I thought our country has progressed so much and we took

:18:52.:19:01.

like three steps back. If we stand up to other countries,

:19:02.:19:05.

we have to make America great again, It was counties like this facing

:19:06.:19:08.

a decline in manufacturing, shrinking population and rising

:19:09.:19:18.

immigration that moved heavily towards Donald Trump and his message

:19:19.:19:20.

of national restoration In his first week-and-a-half

:19:21.:19:22.

in office we have come here to ask He resonated with the working class,

:19:23.:19:51.

I mean this is a blue collar town, you have a lot of industry here,

:19:52.:19:56.

hard-working people, everybody who comes to this place, punches a time

:19:57.:20:00.

clock. That is pretty much the way it is. Marty welcomes Donald Trump's

:20:01.:20:06.

tough stance on immigrants. It a privilege to come to the United

:20:07.:20:10.

States. I don't mean that in a way other than, that it is not a right

:20:11.:20:16.

to come to the United States. That's the price of what freedom is. The

:20:17.:20:20.

United States. If it takes a year, it takes two years, that is what the

:20:21.:20:25.

price of living in this country is. We have freedom here. It is a topic

:20:26.:20:30.

many people here feel strongly about. I am an hen sieve. They are

:20:31.:20:36.

volatile country, you have to be apprehensive. If we are letting you

:20:37.:20:42.

in, it is like, pay your dues like my ancestors did, line anybody

:20:43.:20:47.

else's did. They sat at Ellis "land for days because they wanted to be

:20:48.:20:51.

part of this country. Don't think you deserve the right, I mean I

:20:52.:20:56.

don't go over there. Jessica who works at the bar is one

:20:57.:21:02.

of the few people in this town who didn't vote for Donald Trump. I am

:21:03.:21:06.

appalled by it actually. I don't think it's right. I think it is

:21:07.:21:10.

unconstitutional. People have been becoming more and more outspoken

:21:11.:21:17.

about their racism. I have heard everything in this bar being said

:21:18.:21:21.

that racial slurs that I haven't heard in, I have lived here many his

:21:22.:21:26.

whole life and I haven't heard ever. They are outspoken because they

:21:27.:21:30.

think it is OK to use hate speech and hate language and hate people. I

:21:31.:21:33.

am not about that, you know. On the face of it the new policy seems

:21:34.:21:39.

straightforward. Immigrants from seven predominantly Muslim countries

:21:40.:21:44.

have been restricted from entering the United States, for 90 days.

:21:45.:21:48.

Some have viewed this as a ban on Muslims.

:21:49.:21:55.

Across the County, in the town at the local jewellery shop we meet

:21:56.:21:59.

Glenn. A lot of people are saying that Muslims are targeted, that this

:22:00.:22:05.

is a Muslim ban. Yes, once again I think you have to start somewhere

:22:06.:22:11.

and you look at 9/11, you look at bin haar den, you look a the Boston

:22:12.:22:16.

massacre, the terrorist attack on boss toe. -- bin haar den. They were

:22:17.:22:26.

all Muslim. It is hard you have to cat grinds that specific, but I

:22:27.:22:30.

think that it is a start. Do you think it is creating division in

:22:31.:22:34.

America? I think they have done that, not us. Because there are a

:22:35.:22:39.

lot of Muslims who live in this country. Yes, there definitely is, I

:22:40.:22:45.

think that they have done that, we haven't done that, that's, that is

:22:46.:22:49.

their brand, the brand they are portraying.

:22:50.:23:00.

Hi, nice to meet you. This woman is a Syrian American, and

:23:01.:23:06.

was born and raised in this town. She feels Donald Trump's stricter

:23:07.:23:10.

immigration policy is counter productive. I don't know how you

:23:11.:23:17.

could call it something, but worse than that, I feel it's, against

:23:18.:23:21.

every principle that the country was, our country was built on, when

:23:22.:23:30.

you divide you create mosh confusion, more mistrust, maybe

:23:31.:23:33.

hatred, you know, between two different kind of people who were

:23:34.:23:37.

brought up differently. Now, how is that going to prevent terrorism as

:23:38.:23:45.

opposed to create more? As Donald Trump attempts to shake things up,

:23:46.:23:50.

his hard line policies seem to be continuing, to resonate with many

:23:51.:24:01.

The government says it is going to try far harder to recoup the cost

:24:02.:24:06.

of NHS healthcare given to foreigners in Britain.

:24:07.:24:08.

The issue was in the public eye today partly because of the BBC 2

:24:09.:24:11.

documentary, Hospital, that revealed a rather unusual case

:24:12.:24:13.

of a Nigerian woman and her quadruplets born prematurely.

:24:14.:24:15.

She had been refused entry to the US, and was taken ill

:24:16.:24:18.

on a plane but ended up costing the NHS ?330,000.

:24:19.:24:21.

The thing is, Priscilla, the hospital bill is

:24:22.:24:32.

You're going to be in England for a while, aren't you.

:24:33.:24:40.

So, your husband, is your husband in Nigeria?

:24:41.:24:43.

Will he be coming over at all, under these circumstances?

:24:44.:24:50.

I do understand it's a very difficult time for you, you know,

:24:51.:25:02.

but we do need to talk about the charges for treatment.

:25:03.:25:09.

Also today, the Public Accounts Committee of MPs has said the system

:25:10.:25:12.

The words "health tourism" are used a lot in this talk -

:25:13.:25:16.

It's not people coming here specifically to use the NHS

:25:17.:25:30.

Give us the scale of it The Government commissioned research

:25:31.:25:35.

into the cost of people specifically coming to the UK just to use the

:25:36.:25:39.

NHS, the so-called health tour ribs and what they found was it is a

:25:40.:25:43.

relatively small part of the generalised cost of foreign people

:25:44.:25:46.

coming to the UK and happening to be ill here, so, if we put up a graph,

:25:47.:25:54.

what we can show is that back in 2013, what the Government estimated

:25:55.:26:02.

was around ?200 million was spend on so-called health tourrieses, that

:26:03.:26:05.

was a bit less than if we look at the cost of just European people

:26:06.:26:12.

getting ill in the UK, so it is EU people, that is about 300 million,

:26:13.:26:16.

if you look at students who are not from the EU, that is about 450

:26:17.:26:20.

million, and finally, if you look at people who have come to the UK from

:26:21.:26:25.

elsewhere, it is about 1 billion we spent on care for them, while they

:26:26.:26:28.

are here. We get some of that money back. That is is right. These are

:26:29.:26:33.

gross number, we are basically, we are part of a scheme with other

:26:34.:26:38.

countries that means we are able to charge their state, we are not good

:26:39.:26:43.

at recouping that, if this was the 300 million we could have got, we

:26:44.:26:47.

only got about 50 million back, we can also charge patients from, we

:26:48.:26:52.

can't charge students but we can charge patients from elsewhere in

:26:53.:26:56.

the world for some of their care, again we only charge about ?25

:26:57.:27:00.

million in that specific year, so that why the Government is keen to

:27:01.:27:03.

clamp-down on this. The money they are oing to get, is that going to

:27:04.:27:07.

make a big difference, small difference, Tyne Griff presence to

:27:08.:27:13.

NHS budge bet? These are small numbers so the total was 2 billion.

:27:14.:27:18.

They are looking in their dream they are looking to recoup 5 million and

:27:19.:27:22.

that is coming from taxing students mainly. Fundamentally, they are

:27:23.:27:27.

giving the NHS hospitals incentives to find foreign people to charge and

:27:28.:27:31.

foreign people whose bills we can get for another state to pay, but

:27:32.:27:35.

it's counter-cultural for lots of #350e78 who work in hospitals to

:27:36.:27:38.

check the passports of people in their care. Thank you.

:27:39.:27:40.

Joining me now is the Chair of the Royal College of GPS

:27:41.:27:44.

Professor Helen Lampard Stokes, and the cancer surgeon

:27:45.:27:46.

Meirion Thomas, who is a campaigner on health tourism.

:27:47.:27:50.

We saw in that clip, an NHS person saying to a mother who had lost her

:27:51.:27:58.

child or two children I think, at that point, we need to talk about

:27:59.:28:02.

the bill. Are you comfortable with that as a kind of ethos in the NHS?

:28:03.:28:08.

Well, that case, is exceptional and there is some tragic elms to that

:28:09.:28:11.

case, perhaps we can just set that aside for just a moment, but the

:28:12.:28:16.

fact about maternity tourism is it is very common, for example last

:28:17.:28:23.

year, at St George's Hospital it was reported 1800 foreign lady who had

:28:24.:28:28.

delivered babies there will be and in represent speck 870 of those

:28:29.:28:32.

approximately were ineligible for NHS care. What would you do in those

:28:33.:28:37.

case, because those people, you are probably not going to be able to

:28:38.:28:40.

recoup a large amount. You can chase them. You won't get very much. What

:28:41.:28:45.

is the practical thing, you ask them to show their passport. The point

:28:46.:28:52.

about passports, it is just to do with non-urgent care, for elective

:28:53.:28:57.

cases. It is very little you can do for maternity cases because the

:28:58.:29:00.

Government is determined that anything to do with maternity is

:29:01.:29:03.

immediately necessary, and therefore they have to be treated. They are

:29:04.:29:08.

charged as you say, but, we know that only 16% of invoices that are

:29:09.:29:15.

issued are honoured. Right. Helen, why is it so difficult to just

:29:16.:29:21.

charge people at least the none elective, the non-emergency, the

:29:22.:29:23.

elective care. What is wrong with that? We don't have the

:29:24.:29:26.

infrastructure to do it. Because our NHS, wonderful NHS is free at the

:29:27.:29:29.

point of need, we don't have a charging system set up, there is no

:29:30.:29:34.

universal way of finding out if a patient should or shouldn't pay, so

:29:35.:29:37.

when you walk into a hospital, you and I don't carry any ID because we

:29:38.:29:42.

expect free treatment. When you see your GP you don't carry anything,

:29:43.:29:47.

there is no reason to. If we wanted to charge every body who would need

:29:48.:29:52.

to pay something, we would have to set up a huge infrastructure. You

:29:53.:29:58.

could have to ask me... Is that so difficult? Well, 1.3 million

:29:59.:30:05.

patients see their GP every day, let us get this in perspective. In

:30:06.:30:10.

England we have 7,500 GP surgery, that is a heap of infrastructure.

:30:11.:30:16.

Not, let alone, would you issue ID cards? Would you use passports. That

:30:17.:30:21.

would be an idea. That would make it easier. It would. It happens in

:30:22.:30:26.

other country, other countries charge people. Because they from the

:30:27.:30:30.

the charging structure, they don't have a health system pee at the part

:30:31.:30:34.

of need. This is small amounts of monument if we want to put the

:30:35.:30:39.

infrastructure in and spend hundreds setting it up we could do it. It

:30:40.:30:42.

would be a long time to get the return on investment. It does take

:30:43.:30:48.

infrastructure, ID cards, it is a huge change, and it St really a

:30:49.:30:50.

relatively small amount. It is not small amount, the whole

:30:51.:31:04.

point is, what these management companies were saying in their

:31:05.:31:08.

reports that they accepted only a tiny number of people identified,

:31:09.:31:12.

the problem is much bigger than the government thinks. What I have

:31:13.:31:16.

suggested is that for elective care in hospitals, I know it is not all

:31:17.:31:24.

of the patients and I fully understand it does not involve or

:31:25.:31:31.

doctors but I suggest the patient should present a passport and a

:31:32.:31:34.

utility bill in the name when they register. Loads of people don't have

:31:35.:31:41.

utility bills in the name! Every hospital has an overseas visitors

:31:42.:31:45.

offers. I am suggesting there is a screening tool, that is all. Does it

:31:46.:31:53.

work? Could you receptionist check on sweaty's utility bill? Do you

:31:54.:32:00.

know how difficult it is too identify passport? There are subtle

:32:01.:32:04.

features. I am certainly not trained to do it. You need proper equipment

:32:05.:32:08.

to scan it and say it's legitimate. That is what we're dealing with,

:32:09.:32:13.

passports are not the answer. If I said you won't make this happen

:32:14.:32:18.

until you have ID cards which have residents's entitlement in the UK

:32:19.:32:23.

would you go for that? It's going to have to happen in some form or

:32:24.:32:27.

other, they will have to be personal identification to prove that you are

:32:28.:32:33.

entitled to NHS care. Any health system comparable to ours, Sweden,

:32:34.:32:38.

Holland, France, Germany, wherever you go, we have to have it. OK.

:32:39.:32:42.

Helen, Meirion, thank you both. If you've missed it,

:32:43.:32:45.

the story so far is that all week we've been bringing you two-minute

:32:46.:32:50.

opinionated monologues, Tonight, the author Lionel Shriver,

:32:51.:32:52.

best known for her novel It's time to say

:32:53.:32:55.

what we really mean. Left-leaning pundits decry both

:32:56.:33:09.

Brexit and Trump as the fatal So, when the left wins it's

:33:10.:33:11.

a triumph of democracy. A rabble brandishing pitchforks,

:33:12.:33:17.

Barbarians at the gate. The Oxford Dictionary defines

:33:18.:33:25.

populism as "support for Yet lately, populism seems

:33:26.:33:27.

a byword for voters not To Remainers who want to rerun

:33:28.:33:33.

the referendum until Brexiteers get their minds right,

:33:34.:33:40.

populism means leaving important Of many ideological hues,

:33:41.:33:42.

populism classically urges common people to unseat

:33:43.:33:51.

an unjust governing class. So the American civil rights

:33:52.:33:55.

movement and Occupy Wall Yet especially since the EU

:33:56.:33:57.

referendum, commentators use one-size-fits-all populism to lazily

:33:58.:34:06.

lump together desperate Italy, Hungary, Austria,

:34:07.:34:08.

Holland, Germany, Denmark, Missing all the nuances,

:34:09.:34:12.

the American press makes no distinction between Ukip

:34:13.:34:19.

and France's National Front It's this one word that makes Brexit

:34:20.:34:27.

and Trump seem - mistakenly - The term is troubling

:34:28.:34:39.

because it's loaded. Since anyone who questions

:34:40.:34:41.

unfettered immigration is a suspect and backward,

:34:42.:34:43.

populist has become wink and nod It's polite code for

:34:44.:34:45.

racist, xenophobic, Some Trump voters may deserve these

:34:46.:34:49.

pejorative connotations So before reaching for

:34:50.:34:55.

the euphemism "populist", let's try substituting "bigoted",

:34:56.:35:10.

because if that's what we mean, Film director Ang Lee

:35:11.:35:12.

made gay cowboys popular with Brokeback Mountain,

:35:13.:35:25.

he made Life of Pi where the action is all confined to a small boat,

:35:26.:35:28.

he took a Taiwanese language film and made it mainstream,

:35:29.:35:31.

with Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. He is no stranger to taking risks,

:35:32.:35:33.

and for his next trick the three-time Oscar winner has

:35:34.:35:36.

taken on the Iraq war. He's cast a British unknown

:35:37.:35:43.

in the lead, and experimented Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk

:35:44.:35:45.

is based on real events, about a group of US soldiers

:35:46.:35:49.

who are given a heroes' welcome at home, but struggle

:35:50.:35:52.

with the memories of what had really The film - out here this month -

:35:53.:35:54.

has been met with proverbial Ang Lee has been

:35:55.:35:58.

speaking to our culture For the first time in my life

:35:59.:36:02.

I feel close to somebody. In Ang Lee's new film,

:36:03.:36:11.

a platoon of US soldiers are flown back

:36:12.:36:18.

from the battlefields of Iraq and paraded

:36:19.:36:20.

as But they are not

:36:21.:36:21.

prepared for all the attention or the deafening

:36:22.:36:25.

pyrotechnics. All these explosions catapult

:36:26.:36:27.

them back to being in combat, in theatre,

:36:28.:36:30.

don't they? I got that from talking to the soldi

:36:31.:36:33.

the veterans who work The thing they talk most

:36:34.:36:41.

about is the sound, and they The other things, the celebration

:36:42.:36:48.

is a bother to them. When people thank

:36:49.:37:03.

them, so often when people come and thank the soldiers

:37:04.:37:05.

for their service, that's the line When people thank them,

:37:06.:37:08.

because they feel they Also what motivated me to make

:37:09.:37:12.

the movie is really the sympathy to the soldiers

:37:13.:37:22.

who are being misunderstood. That's what really moves me,

:37:23.:37:25.

more than timely or Ang Lee has taken on a war

:37:26.:37:33.

unpopular with the American public, as he has discovered

:37:34.:37:46.

at the box office. He also gave himself the technical

:37:47.:37:49.

challenge of shooting at 120 frames On the big screen, it

:37:50.:37:52.

gives greater definition, Such as making gunfights

:37:53.:37:59.

look convincing. I had the idea to have

:38:00.:38:08.

them shoot real bullets! It's sort of weird being honoured

:38:09.:38:11.

for the worst day of your life. The special effect person,

:38:12.:38:22.

they provided the armour, they were very smart,

:38:23.:38:25.

but this little spring, It's very exciting,

:38:26.:38:29.

a close-up of shooting, There are a ton of ways

:38:30.:38:41.

you could get shipped home, or I mean, you're

:38:42.:38:47.

a decorated hero, Billy, For stars including

:38:48.:38:50.

Kristin Stewart, there was no make-up on set, to suit

:38:51.:38:52.

the unforgiving high-speed cameras. So, no pressure then

:38:53.:38:57.

on the young British newcomer Joe Alwyn,

:38:58.:39:00.

who was cast in the lead after producers had

:39:01.:39:03.

seen hundreds of other hopefuls. You don't have money men saying,

:39:04.:39:08.

get somebody famous in that part? This movie's not expensive

:39:09.:39:17.

but it's not cheap either. There are some hesitations,

:39:18.:39:27.

there were, but I was It took a week or two

:39:28.:39:31.

to convince the And you have a few Oscars

:39:32.:39:43.

on your shelf so that The extraordinary Life Of Pi

:39:44.:39:47.

picked up four Oscars but what about accusations of racism

:39:48.:39:58.

at the awards, when the director's earlier adaptation

:39:59.:40:00.

of a Jane Austen novel was winning prizes,

:40:01.:40:14.

he was overlooked. When I did Sense And

:40:15.:40:16.

Sensibility it got seven nominations, and it won a lot

:40:17.:40:19.

including Golden Globes, best producer called me, she was crying,

:40:20.:40:21.

we've got seven nominations. But in the long run,

:40:22.:40:39.

I think they didn't know me. I just don't think they

:40:40.:40:46.

know me, I think it's Ang Lee was born in Taiwan,

:40:47.:40:51.

so does he appreciate Donald Trump's overtures to Taiwan, which

:40:52.:40:59.

seem to have upset the Chinese? By the way, I'm having

:41:00.:41:03.

Taiwanese passport. I'm not American yet,

:41:04.:41:10.

it's not my president, And we are a minority,

:41:11.:41:12.

it's a very small place, not recognised

:41:13.:41:39.

as a country, but it has its own sovereignty,

:41:40.:41:41.

and I'm just afraid that it will be used

:41:42.:41:43.

as a chip, a bargaining element. After reinventing the martial arts

:41:44.:41:46.

movie with Crouching Tiger, could Ang Lee be persuaded to work

:41:47.:41:59.

his magic on the British equivalent, From childhood I always

:42:00.:42:02.

imagined a Bond movie, it is But I think it's a brand

:42:03.:42:07.

you don't want to mess with, Don't seduce me any more,

:42:08.:42:12.

I might just want to do it! The Broccolis, if I've got that

:42:13.:42:20.

right, they watch this programme. Steven Smith with the film director

:42:21.:42:26.

With Evan Davis. Parliament bends before the public will and votes to trigger Article 50 and begin the Brexit process. Plus the US public and Trump, foreign people using the NHS, Lionel Shriver, and Ang Lee.


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