21/02/2017 Newsnight


21/02/2017

Newsnight looks at French presidential candidate Emmanuel Macron, why HIV is disappearing so fast, the NHS and communism, brutalist architecture and Brexit.


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An ecstatic crowd in London wait to cheer a fresh face young

:00:00.:00:09.

politician in a huge rally, bedecked with red

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He's Emmanuel Macron, and he's running for French president.

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Not since Jeremy Corbyn's leadership rallies has there been such

:00:24.:00:29.

enthusiasm for a political leader in the UK, and even

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British liberal Remainers are pinning their hopes on him.

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We'll ask two British centrist politicians if they are for him,

:00:36.:00:37.

Also tonight, is this the reason why HIV infection rates

:00:38.:00:41.

We went back over all our new HIV diagnoses and each month

:00:42.:00:48.

But then we asked our colleagues in other clinics in London

:00:49.:00:56.

And is the NHS the last bastion of Communism?

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Four hours for emergency care, two months to start cancer

:01:05.:01:07.

treatment and six months for a routine operation.

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Let's stop trying to fix it, let's totally change the model.

:01:11.:01:21.

French politics has never been more interesting.

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For one thing, Marine Le Pen is the leading candidate

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in opinion polls for the first round of the presidential election.

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No-one can dismiss her as fringe anymore.

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But her opponents make the race interesting too.

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In the final round of election, Le Pen's rival is expected to win.

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And the leading opponent - just - is Emmanuel Macron.

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He is interesting because he has the potential to redefine

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He's young, he's an outsider with a new party, and today,

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His message might appeal to the many French voters in the UK,

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but for that dispirited group of British liberal remainers here,

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he seems to have quite a bit of appeal too.

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They'd queued around the corner to see the French politician

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Is he a potential beachhead in the fight against the populist

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There is a lot of liberal hope being invested in his politics.

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He looked very comfortable here in London, and in a way he fits

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He is socially liberal, believes in same-sex marriage.

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He is economically liberal, he's against the French 35-hour week.

:02:59.:03:01.

He is the antithesis of Donald Trump.

:03:02.:03:06.

What I like best about Macron is that he is not of the right.

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Where we are now in politics, anybody who can win who is not

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of the right and who will fight off the right is an asset.

:03:17.:03:24.

It's a second-order issue precisely what policies are,

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what we know is that he's not racist, he is pro-European,

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And he will fight off some of the dark forces

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This is a message for American researchers...

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He has a canny political sense for appealing to liberals.

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I do know how your new President now has decided to jeopardise your

:03:45.:03:47.

budget, your initiatives, as he is extremely sceptical

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Now, the French election comes to a showdown

:03:50.:04:00.

Current poll ratings say he would be one of them

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Which raises an interesting question.

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If he is so popular in France, why isn't

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Could he or his ilk make it over here?

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In some ways, our old party loyalties disguise the changing

:04:17.:04:19.

Conservative Anna Soubry is surely closer to say,

:04:20.:04:25.

the centrist Alan Johnson in Labour, than she is to Jacob

:04:26.:04:28.

Alan Johnson must be surely closer to her or to Nick Clegg

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in the Lib Dems than he is to his own leader Jeremy Corbyn.

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And you could even argue a slew of big-name Conservative and Labour

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And they have a minority segment of the public behind them.

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Over the last year it is clear the old ideas about left and right

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are not sufficient to fully understand politics in Britain,

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in France and across developed democracies.

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And so in YouGov we have looked at the new tribes

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And we have found that with 37% in France and 37% in Britain,

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it's the pro-EU, internationalist moderates, this centrist

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group, who are actually the largest single group.

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And they support the EU, they support controlled immigration

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And the question now is can Macron in France or indeed

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any candidate in Britain or France sufficiently capture enough

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The problem for British centrists is not just that they're stuck

:05:24.:05:30.

in three different parties, the voting system makes it hard

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Memories of the old SDP, a Macron-esque party of the early

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'80s, instil fear in those wanting to break the mould.

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As for Macron, no one really knows if he is a winner yet,

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But for liberals, feeling pretty battered,

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Conservative Ed Vaizey was Culture Minister from 2010-16

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and Labour MP Alison McGovern is the chair of Progress -

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a Labour think tank which has been associated with New Labour

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in the past, and now describes itself as an organisation

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which "aims to promote a radical and progressive politics

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We've got you both here because we think you are pretty similar in your

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politics even know you are in different parties. You are going to

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concoct an argument between yourselves. Do you like Macron,

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Alison? Tempting though it is to draw conclusions about what's

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happening in France, the parallels are limited because there is a

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totally different system in France. The internal dynamic that happens

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because of their system isn't necessarily applicable. I'm keen

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that we have lots of European cooperation, despite Brexit, because

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my constituents' jobs depend on it but having a direct read across from

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what is happening in France isn't really possible. You are the big

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issues, you are in the same places? On things like the idea that in a

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world where most companies of any size are multinational, I think

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European cooperation is the right thing and I'm pretty sure he would

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agree. I think he would. The same question to you, you have met

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Macron? I spoke to him a couple of times, once when he was wooing tech

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companies in London, when it was the European Union and French companies

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were flowing over here. He's very charismatic and I like a lot of what

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he says and a lot of his policies for France. For me as a centre-right

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politician, very attractive policies, attacking the 35 hour

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week, deregulating the Labour market, which urgently needs doing.

:07:58.:08:01.

Whether he will succeed if he wins is another question. Interesting to

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see Polly Toynbee endorsing him as the only backstop to stop Marine Le

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Pen. He's in that position by accident because the Fillon campaign

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has imploded but would she say the same thing about that, supporting

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anybody who would stop Le Pen? She is more enthusiastic about Macron.

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Let's get to the real gist of this, should you be in the same party? No,

:08:27.:08:35.

absolutely not. I'm a left-wing politician. As much as I think we

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should modernise our ideas and look to the future, for me, the nature of

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politics is about where you come from, who you listen to, and that's

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very different across the two parties. We have a different system

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in Britain. I understand the Conservative Party and Labour Party

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are different, I'm wondering if you are closer to Ed than Jeremy Corbyn.

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I'm a Labour politician and I walk through the lobbies with Jeremy

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Corbyn two of those -- to oppose a lot of what the Conservatives did

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which has put the economy in a mess that when it came to the Brexit

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vote, they had to protest against David Cameron and George Osborne for

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what they have done. I don't buy the idea that, you know, in the centre

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we are all the same. We have a different system. You aren't all the

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same, it's just that the differences between new two are smaller than

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those differences between your leaders. The coalition may not be

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between your leader, but it may more naturally be between you and other

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people in the centre. Where I think there is an important point to that

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argument is that the debate we are in in Britain, everything in

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politics is being flown to the ends. Brexit seems to have given a lot of

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power to people on the hard right and the far right and I think that's

:10:04.:10:07.

problematic because they don't represent the interests of the

:10:08.:10:10.

majority of people in our country. Getting issues like, you know,

:10:11.:10:16.

schools funding on the agenda can be really difficult because Brexit is

:10:17.:10:21.

sweeping everything else out the way. Do you think you should be in

:10:22.:10:27.

the same party as Alison, Ed? I agree on the point that Brexit has

:10:28.:10:32.

thrown up talk of some kind of crazy political realignment. Maybe there

:10:33.:10:38.

will be a Remainer realignment but people have been talking about a

:10:39.:10:43.

third way, 20 years ago. People forget, there's a tendency,

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especially for Remainers like me to characterise Brexiteers as these

:10:50.:10:53.

insular, non-globalist parochial politicians but Boris Johnson is a

:10:54.:10:58.

liberal, open the globalist, Michael Gove keeps a copy of Tony Blair's

:10:59.:11:03.

autobiography on his bedside table and refers to him as the master. Why

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on earth did they find themselves campaigning alongside the likes of

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Nigel Farage if that's true? This is what I don't understand. Campaigns

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can make unusual bedfellows as we see Polly Toynbee backing Emmanuel

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Macron, she properly disagrees with his policies, to prevent something.

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Remainers like me must understand why people voted for Brexit. I feel

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the way it has shifted, the Remainers had given ground. Not

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saying we are going to fight the referendum all over again, we're

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saying we want a relationship with Europe and we will campaign for

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that. That reaches back to Boris Johnson and Michael Gove who believe

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in free trade, open trade and David Davis in tomorrow's Times is talking

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about keeping immigration levels high because of the skills we need.

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It will lead to a million arguments about whether we should be detaching

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ourselves or not. The argument isn't over. The nature of our

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relationship. It isn't clear what those people really think. You say

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they are interested in openness and working with our European colleagues

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but they've done nothing to bring about that vision. Isn't the real

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vision that you as a centralist, Remainer Tory, you are harbouring

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hopes that the Tory party is essentially an open party, socially

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liberal, a Macron party, you hope that Theresa May is the British

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Macron? I think Theresa May can be the British Macron. If I was going

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to critique the last six months, and I said this in the debate on the

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Article 50 bill, I hope the government changes its rhetoric and

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recognises that 48% of people voted to stay in Europe because they have

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that globalist and open agenda. I think Theresa May has that

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opportunity. I think the Article 50 bill has given her exactly what she

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perhaps didn't want, an opportunity to rally people behind the fact that

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we are leaving Europe and forcing people like me to accept that and

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say, what is our relationship with Europe? Now is a chance for the

:13:16.:13:19.

government to build beaches to people who have these concerns. In

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that debate a number of reasonable amendments were put down to the Bill

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which would shape, make for representations on behalf or people

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who voted league and remain about the Brexit they wanted and all I can

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remember is the Tory MPs cheering as it was announced that the bill had

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passed without amendment. Rhetoric is important but actually, deeds

:13:44.:13:47.

matter too and we're going to face the kind of Brexit that is really

:13:48.:13:48.

damaging to British interests. It used to be said the SDP split the

:13:49.:13:59.

vote on the left and kept the Tories in power. Is it possible to save the

:14:00.:14:05.

Tory Labour duopoly has the most the centrists. -- has split the votes of

:14:06.:14:14.

the centrists. I think all political parties are a coalition because of

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the system that we have in this country, first past the post and

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that dictates the coalition. I would not be in the same party as Alison

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because I do not think the state is the answer to our problems or higher

:14:27.:14:33.

spending or taxes. But the funny thing is I have watched Tories in

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power over the past six years running down public services and

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doing real damage to their economic prospects for ordinary people. For

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most people who think about politics for two minutes a week, those of the

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things they want us to focus on. Thank you both.

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There has been a dramatic and under-reported change

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to the number of new HIV infections among gay men in the UK.

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The good news is that in 2016, the rate of infection plummeted.

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It's not because a vaccine was invented, it appears to be down

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Quickly treating those who are recently diagnosed as HIV

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positive, stops them being so infectious.

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And then there is the use of pre-exposure prophylaxis - or PrEP.

:15:13.:15:16.

A drug for treating HIV turns out to be good

:15:17.:15:19.

The moment I was told I had HIV, it was confusing, I suppose.

:15:20.:15:27.

They said to me, your test has come back positive.

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And so without saying, you are HIV-positive,

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it took me a couple of moments to really understand

:15:32.:15:34.

I never want anyone to go through what I had

:15:35.:15:38.

I almost died, I was in hospital for a week after my diagnosis.

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We first looked at the graphs, we thought no, it can't be true.

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So we went back over all our new HIV diagnoses

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and each month we looked, it was the same.

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But then we asked our colleagues in other clinics in London

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And so we thought, it is true, it's real.

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There is actually truly a reduction in new HIV diagnoses.

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And I can't get across to you how excited we were because initially,

:16:20.:16:22.

The most significant thing that's happened in that time

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is that we found that a lot of people who are really high

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risk who come to our clinic were taking PrEP.

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So PrEP means basically giving people who are really high risk

:16:56.:16:59.

for HIV two drugs that are used to treat HIV, to stop

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And recently, in the last year, 18 months or so, increasing numbers

:17:03.:17:09.

We've discovered this because they come into our clinics

:17:10.:17:17.

and we ask them what medication they are taking and they tell us

:17:18.:17:20.

Now over the course of my lifetime it's going to cost around ?300,000,

:17:21.:17:36.

And so by providing PrEP, then it would have cost the NHS

:17:37.:17:42.

You know, I definitely would have been taking PrEP had it been

:17:43.:17:46.

And yeah, I probably wouldn't have HIV now.

:17:47.:17:58.

So yeah, is there a danger that with PrEP,

:17:59.:18:01.

And there are some studies that have demonstrated this.

:18:02.:18:07.

It's important, though, to recognise that STI rates are high

:18:08.:18:11.

and have been going up for quite a long time.

:18:12.:18:14.

And were going up before PrEP became available.

:18:15.:18:16.

So I don't think we can say with any certainty that PrEP is responsible

:18:17.:18:20.

for the current increases that we are seeing in STI.

:18:21.:18:37.

I don't think that now there is any doubt at all that it works.

:18:38.:18:43.

And I think what now has to happen is that as many people

:18:44.:18:46.

as possible who are at risk, should have access to it.

:18:47.:18:50.

You think that there might be a time, actually reasonably soon,

:18:51.:18:53.

where we won't get any new HIV diagnoses?

:18:54.:18:57.

Well, I can't say how soon, I would hope soon, but I think yes.

:18:58.:19:03.

Our producer James Clayton compiled that report.

:19:04.:19:06.

Matthew Hodson is the Executive Director of aids

:19:07.:19:10.

charity NAM AIDS Map, which shares information

:19:11.:19:12.

Which is more important is it the PrEP which is not yet available on

:19:13.:19:29.

the NHS or the treatment of new cases much earlier so they're less

:19:30.:19:35.

infectious? Both are important, you need to recognise if people are

:19:36.:19:40.

treated they're not an infection risk to their sexual partners and

:19:41.:19:46.

this is important. But we have been rolling out treatment on diagnoses

:19:47.:19:51.

since 2012. And the very dramatic drop we have seen in new HIV

:19:52.:19:55.

infections last year, it feels it cannot just be about that because it

:19:56.:19:58.

must be something new. The thing that has dramatically changed is

:19:59.:20:03.

people accessing PrEP. And they're mostly doing it by self

:20:04.:20:08.

prescription, just getting online. It is not yet available on the NHS

:20:09.:20:13.

so some websites have been set up grassroots activists, and they're

:20:14.:20:18.

putting people in touch with suppliers of generic PrEP drugs.

:20:19.:20:25.

Which incidentally are cheaper than perhaps the NHS would pay.

:20:26.:20:29.

Considerably cheaper than the NHS would be paying. The NHS would say

:20:30.:20:34.

why would we want to buy this drug for people, especially as we would

:20:35.:20:41.

pay full price, when it appears to be working anyway because people

:20:42.:20:45.

will just go and buy it themselves. We have seen that dramatic drop

:20:46.:20:47.

which is fantastic news, really exciting. But it is only reaching

:20:48.:20:54.

those people who are well-informed, and who also have income to say I'm

:20:55.:21:00.

going to spend about ?40 a month and if you considered the number of

:21:01.:21:06.

people quite young gay men for example still being diagnosed with

:21:07.:21:09.

HIV or perhaps ?40 per month is quite a considerable barrier to

:21:10.:21:14.

them. It is exciting because we are turning a corner now and you want to

:21:15.:21:18.

everything we have got at it because we could make a huge difference. You

:21:19.:21:24.

definitely want the NHS to make it available on prescription for those

:21:25.:21:29.

who say they want it? If it could be rolled out to the people who would

:21:30.:21:32.

benefit most then you're going to have the power to end the epidemic.

:21:33.:21:37.

How much does a license people to go off and behave with unsafe sex

:21:38.:21:42.

because they say I have taken PrEP and I do not need it and thus

:21:43.:21:47.

perhaps get hepatitis C or any number of sexually transmitted

:21:48.:21:52.

infections. Condom 's have been a pillar of HIV infection since the

:21:53.:21:56.

1980s and they still play an enormous role obviously. But we now

:21:57.:22:00.

have this opportunity where we can do something which is going to

:22:01.:22:05.

increase our prevention power. And we could use this. The other thing

:22:06.:22:12.

is if people were getting PrEP on the NHS then they would be tied into

:22:13.:22:16.

clinical services and that means they would be regularly screened and

:22:17.:22:20.

if they had an STI there would be diagnosed and treated. It is one of

:22:21.:22:24.

the problems we have is people accessing PrEP in the wild they may

:22:25.:22:30.

not be getting regularly tested for STI 's. I can hear a lot of people

:22:31.:22:35.

saying the NHS is basically does not have enough money, that is the

:22:36.:22:39.

commonly held view, would this be a priority thing to spend money on,

:22:40.:22:44.

basically recreational sex, as opposed to many other things the NHS

:22:45.:22:48.

could spend money on. The kind of money we are looking at, I mean I

:22:49.:22:54.

think figures have been branded a round of about 20 million, and it

:22:55.:22:58.

sounds like a lot of money but if you think it is under 1% of the NHS

:22:59.:23:06.

budget. But also it is cost-effective and with the enormous

:23:07.:23:10.

production we have seen in diagnosis it is more cost-effective even than

:23:11.:23:13.

we thought because it costs a lot to treat someone living with HIV. And

:23:14.:23:18.

unless people are infecting other people because they do not have it,

:23:19.:23:22.

how successful or significant has this been for other categories at

:23:23.:23:31.

risk of HIV, said drug users? I think the big drops we have seen so

:23:32.:23:34.

far have been particularly amongst gay and bisexual men and that is

:23:35.:23:38.

partly because it has been a grassroots activism that has pushed

:23:39.:23:44.

this. I think what we have done is proved that the concept works and I

:23:45.:23:48.

think that increases the urgency of rolling it out to other high risk

:23:49.:23:54.

groups like people from sub-Saharan Africa, trans women and injecting

:23:55.:23:55.

drug users. Thank you for that. And if you have any questions

:23:56.:23:58.

for Matthew we're going to be continuing to talk about this topic

:23:59.:24:01.

on our Facebook Live page You sending your questions and I

:24:02.:24:11.

will read them from my mobile phone and put them to Matthew. That will

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be straight the programme for about 20 minutes. -- straight after.

:24:16.:24:21.

Today, it's the turn of oncologist Karol Sikora with his take

:24:22.:24:27.

Health care systems everywhere are struggling.

:24:28.:24:36.

Ageing populations, high cost effective novel technology

:24:37.:24:38.

and relentless demand from a Internet savvy patients

:24:39.:24:41.

There are only three ways to pay for health care.

:24:42.:24:46.

But Britain's NHS is mainly tax based.

:24:47.:24:54.

It was a great concept when it began.

:24:55.:24:58.

Free and the point of care, based on medical need,

:24:59.:25:00.

This became the catechism for a religion with more believers

:25:01.:25:06.

Politicians are frightened to meddle, even though

:25:07.:25:10.

It's now cracking up, simply throwing more tax

:25:11.:25:15.

Nearly half of the budget goes to people over 65

:25:16.:25:20.

Younger working people would have to pay massively more for

:25:21.:25:24.

Anything we want is just a click away, yet the NHS is the last

:25:25.:25:33.

It is a monolithic, unmanageable and inefficient system which can't

:25:34.:25:37.

Staff are great, but the system is not.

:25:38.:25:44.

Nowhere in Western Europe are the targets so slack.

:25:45.:25:47.

Two months to start cancer treatment.

:25:48.:25:52.

Let's stop trying to fix it, let's totally change the model.

:25:53.:25:59.

Think of the NHS as a tax -based insurance scheme covering basic

:26:00.:26:02.

costs and allow a plethora of private providers to enter.

:26:03.:26:08.

Fast paced, competitive and innovative, these organisations

:26:09.:26:11.

will breathe fresh life and efficiency into

:26:12.:26:12.

They will provide what society really wants.

:26:13.:26:18.

Let people choose whether they wish to spend more on their health

:26:19.:26:21.

by paying to top up their basic care, or by converting

:26:22.:26:23.

Make no mistake, the NHS is collapsing.

:26:24.:26:28.

Tinkering at the edges just won't work.

:26:29.:26:30.

It needs radical surgery to bring it in line with the 21st-century.

:26:31.:26:48.

As we sit here, peers are still debating the Brexit Bill.

:26:49.:26:52.

Let's take a look at the House of Lords.

:26:53.:26:55.

From here to eternity, the talk goes on.

:26:56.:27:00.

But the expectation is that the peers will not get in the way,

:27:01.:27:03.

and the bill to allow the government to invoke Article 50 will proceed.

:27:04.:27:08.

But the Lords might propose an amendment on the rights of EU

:27:09.:27:11.

citizens currently residing in the UK.

:27:12.:27:12.

Many are known to feel strongly about it -

:27:13.:27:17.

it will probably come up next week, rather than tonight.

:27:18.:27:22.

How should Britain deal with continental residents here?

:27:23.:27:25.

I'm joined by Sunder Katwala, director of the think

:27:26.:27:27.

tank British Future, which was responsible

:27:28.:27:28.

for a cross-party inquiry which looked into securing

:27:29.:27:30.

the status of EEA nationals in the UK.

:27:31.:27:35.

Thank you for joining us. The first issue, what is the cut-off date that

:27:36.:27:44.

allows you to say you were here and not here? What was your

:27:45.:27:50.

recommendation? We can use the date Article 50 is triggered as the date,

:27:51.:27:54.

if you were here before that, exercising free movement rights, you

:27:55.:27:57.

can have a guarantee of your right to settle, but if you arrive after

:27:58.:28:03.

that, your expectations have changed, you will be part of

:28:04.:28:06.

transitional arrangements. There is an ethical commitment. This has

:28:07.:28:16.

legal status whereas Article 50, you get into legal problems if you try

:28:17.:28:19.

and say something happened on the Iraq random. You can use Article 50

:28:20.:28:26.

as the cut-off -- something happened on the referendum. How can I say

:28:27.:28:36.

when someone arrived? If you have been here exercising your free

:28:37.:28:40.

movement rights, then we've got a lot of footprint on you, you will be

:28:41.:28:47.

on the DWP database. One part of the solution, rather than sending up to

:28:48.:28:50.

1 million people back to every previous employer they've had and

:28:51.:28:55.

collecting gas bills, if somebody has been paying tax and you got them

:28:56.:29:00.

on the system, if government systems talk to each other, the 2 million

:29:01.:29:04.

people who have been here for five years, it is a light touch way to

:29:05.:29:09.

clear the easy cases. Sounds like quite a problem. How many permanent

:29:10.:29:15.

residence claims from Europeans is the British immigration department

:29:16.:29:21.

trying to handle, 20,000? 27,000 in the year before. The rate tripled

:29:22.:29:27.

immediately after the referendum. It is 100 times more. Your systems

:29:28.:29:35.

aren't up to it. What are you proposing that you do? If it isn't

:29:36.:29:39.

up to it, that implies you could add another 10%, another few office

:29:40.:29:47.

blocks. We know that immigration systems haven't worked well in the

:29:48.:29:51.

past, the idea that every European should send in their passport isn't

:29:52.:29:57.

exactly the best start to Brexit. We've got some local nationality

:29:58.:30:00.

checking services where if you're making their passport application

:30:01.:30:04.

you can go with your documents, they can look at the system and they can

:30:05.:30:07.

send you home to get something if you haven't got it. That could be

:30:08.:30:11.

the green light to the easy cases and let the Home Office deal with

:30:12.:30:15.

the complicated cases. There could be complicated and, if we have sent

:30:16.:30:18.

people to prison then we would exclude those people. It's up to the

:30:19.:30:23.

government to identify the people they have sent to prison and if they

:30:24.:30:29.

get it wrong they will be in trouble. When you guys looked at

:30:30.:30:35.

this was it your view that only people who speak English should be

:30:36.:30:38.

allowed to remain, that some kind of test should be applied? I think the

:30:39.:30:44.

character and criminal record status we have for settlement should stay.

:30:45.:30:49.

The English language citizenship test, if you are a European national

:30:50.:30:52.

who was to become a citizen, jump through the same hoops, but we are

:30:53.:30:58.

trying to guarantee the same rights you had before the referendum. Let's

:30:59.:31:03.

suppose that I'm Polish and have been sending money back and in 2018,

:31:04.:31:09.

2019I think I don't want to go back, I want to bring them over here? That

:31:10.:31:14.

would mean a lot of extra people coming in after Article 50 but

:31:15.:31:20.

observing the rights of a person who is already here. It gets

:31:21.:31:24.

complicated. It does to a certain extent because there are very few

:31:25.:31:28.

areas where European rights have superior rights to British citizens,

:31:29.:31:32.

they don't have the income threshold if they want to marry someone. We

:31:33.:31:36.

thought the fair thing to do was to allow those rights to exist for a

:31:37.:31:40.

five-year phasing in period and then to phase them out so everyone is on

:31:41.:31:46.

the same status. The principle is that people who were already here

:31:47.:31:49.

and not expecting the change should have the same status that they have

:31:50.:31:54.

now, that is something that all parties agreed to. Everyone agrees

:31:55.:32:01.

that is the right thing to do. Four people including those abroad are

:32:02.:32:05.

still waiting to hear that is what we will organise with the European

:32:06.:32:06.

Union. Thank you for joining us. Life is sometimes brutal as we know,

:32:07.:32:09.

but it is turning out particularly so for the wonders of brutalist

:32:10.:32:12.

architecture in this country. Tower blocks and other

:32:13.:32:14.

of these concrete structures For councils, it seems

:32:15.:32:16.

easier to remove them And developers follow on behind,

:32:17.:32:21.

putting up flats for private buyers. But all this is happening just

:32:22.:32:25.

as many are finally appreciating Our Culture Editor,

:32:26.:32:28.

Stephen Smith reports. These buildings have

:32:29.:32:32.

now reached a certain need to be renovated, or sometimes

:32:33.:32:54.

it is cheaper to knock them down. It was a recurring

:32:55.:33:02.

rhetorical trope after the The people are the

:33:03.:33:14.

greatest capital that Often the solution

:33:15.:33:19.

looked a bit like this. The tower block,

:33:20.:33:24.

the high-rise with its It's like being in

:33:25.:33:26.

heaven up here because We've had so many

:33:27.:33:34.

good friends up here. And these places are

:33:35.:33:39.

just lovely for us. What excites me about them is that

:33:40.:33:43.

they were designed with the real kind of effort going into what makes

:33:44.:33:47.

the place good to live, what makes it a really pleasant

:33:48.:33:50.

place to grow up, to know, to live an urban life

:33:51.:33:52.

where you're not cut off from your Where you bump into people,

:33:53.:34:01.

where you have quick and easy access to transport

:34:02.:34:05.

and to shops. But it wasn't long before the first

:34:06.:34:10.

wrinkles appeared in all that I mean in winter, his

:34:11.:34:13.

quilt is wet through. I'm going to put him in with us

:34:14.:34:30.

again because his bedroom is Come and help kill

:34:31.:34:33.

the dampness dragon! Justly or otherwise,

:34:34.:34:44.

some made a link between the concrete jungle

:34:45.:34:48.

and the law of the jungle. The Thamesmead estate was a backdrop

:34:49.:34:59.

to clockwork Orange, as the writers saw something dystopian in the

:35:00.:35:04.

architecture. Couldn't get away with it! In get Carter, Michael Caine

:35:05.:35:11.

worked off his anger in the Trinity Square shopping centre in Gateshead.

:35:12.:35:16.

Don't look for it now, it isn't there any more.

:35:17.:35:25.

Feel free to leave the room if you think the term iconic is overused

:35:26.:35:32.

but that's what they call this tower in west London which was completed

:35:33.:35:37.

in 1972 and is now a great two listed building. Some housing

:35:38.:35:43.

campaigners are not impressed. The problem pretty immediately was that

:35:44.:35:46.

the management costs were sky-high to make it work, lifts were being

:35:47.:35:50.

vandalised, it became known as the Tower of Terror because of the high

:35:51.:35:54.

risks of rape in the stairwell. That has been managed better. The problem

:35:55.:36:03.

with a lot but not all of the post-war architecture is that they

:36:04.:36:06.

were cutting across 2000 years of sitting making -- City making and

:36:07.:36:13.

organic knowledge of how people want to live and where people are happy

:36:14.:36:18.

and power. In the last 20, 30 years we've started being able to research

:36:19.:36:22.

that thanks to big data and a greater capacity to understand where

:36:23.:36:26.

people work. What we've learnt is that you tend to know your

:36:27.:36:32.

neighbours less well, you have less trusting relationships with them.

:36:33.:36:47.

The architects of the Alexandra Road estate in North London apparently

:36:48.:36:54.

modelled it on the sinuous curves of the Georgian terraces of Bath.

:36:55.:37:01.

What's it like to live here? We have decent people, its well-kept,

:37:02.:37:06.

decent. You don't mind the concrete? No, I don't, I love it. The

:37:07.:37:11.

concrete, it is an acquired taste, I'd say. But it's not horrible,

:37:12.:37:19.

actually, it's quite comfortable and inside, the spaces are marvellous.

:37:20.:37:25.

Would you fancy one of these? I don't know, too many windows for me.

:37:26.:37:33.

A love to keep clean. Absolutely. As if to prove that appreciation for

:37:34.:37:37.

brutalism is growing in some quarters it was recently adorned by

:37:38.:37:40.

Tom Hiddleston's own desirable superstructure. I'm so sorry! I'll

:37:41.:37:52.

survive. I don't doubt it. Your excellent specimen. I thought you

:37:53.:38:00.

were empty. I've just moved in. It's all too late to save this estate in

:38:01.:38:04.

east London, destined for the Iraq's ball. Most of the critics, most of

:38:05.:38:10.

the strongest critics of post-war architecture are people who don't

:38:11.:38:17.

live in it. Buildings like this can be a wonderful place to live. Places

:38:18.:38:24.

that are perceived as being attached to post-war architecture is really

:38:25.:38:29.

the disparity between the grand utopian aspirations and the reality

:38:30.:38:35.

which can never meet the future that was imagined for many of these

:38:36.:38:36.

buildings. Tomorrow we will be in Stoke ahead

:38:37.:38:41.

of the by-election. Don't forget I'll be on Facebook

:38:42.:38:51.

Live in a couple of minutes taking your questions for our guest

:38:52.:38:54.

on falling HIV rates. We leave you with news that BBC1

:38:55.:38:56.

is to re-examine the sound mixing on their new Sunday night drama

:38:57.:39:03.

SS-GB, after the 90% of the population with cheap TVs

:39:04.:39:05.

complained they couldn't Those passes you took are just

:39:06.:39:07.

about the most valuable piece of paper a foreigner

:39:08.:39:15.

can be given. Anyway as a favour to our sister

:39:16.:39:17.

channel, we've arranged to have the show redubbed for them -

:39:18.:39:27.

by Radio 4 Newsreaders Zeb Soames Those passes you took are just

:39:28.:39:30.

about the most valuable piece of paper a foreigner

:39:31.:39:38.

can be given. That's what we are as far as you're

:39:39.:39:40.

concerned, foreigners. The Germans are the ones

:39:41.:39:46.

with the right to be here, and we are the intruders

:39:47.:39:48.

who have to bow and bloody scrape. Get your hands off me,

:39:49.:39:51.

you bloody Gestapo bastard.

:39:52.:39:56.

Newsnight looks at French presidential candidate Emmanuel Macron, why HIV is disappearing so fast, the NHS and communism, brutalist architecture and Brexit.


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