21/02/2017 Newsnight


Newsnight looks at French presidential candidate Emmanuel Macron, why HIV is disappearing so fast, the NHS and communism, brutalist architecture and Brexit.

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An ecstatic crowd in London wait to cheer a fresh face young


politician in a huge rally, bedecked with red


He's Emmanuel Macron, and he's running for French president.


Not since Jeremy Corbyn's leadership rallies has there been such


enthusiasm for a political leader in the UK, and even


British liberal Remainers are pinning their hopes on him.


We'll ask two British centrist politicians if they are for him,


Also tonight, is this the reason why HIV infection rates


We went back over all our new HIV diagnoses and each month


But then we asked our colleagues in other clinics in London


And is the NHS the last bastion of Communism?


Four hours for emergency care, two months to start cancer


treatment and six months for a routine operation.


Let's stop trying to fix it, let's totally change the model.


French politics has never been more interesting.


For one thing, Marine Le Pen is the leading candidate


in opinion polls for the first round of the presidential election.


No-one can dismiss her as fringe anymore.


But her opponents make the race interesting too.


In the final round of election, Le Pen's rival is expected to win.


And the leading opponent - just - is Emmanuel Macron.


He is interesting because he has the potential to redefine


He's young, he's an outsider with a new party, and today,


His message might appeal to the many French voters in the UK,


but for that dispirited group of British liberal remainers here,


he seems to have quite a bit of appeal too.


They'd queued around the corner to see the French politician


Is he a potential beachhead in the fight against the populist


There is a lot of liberal hope being invested in his politics.


He looked very comfortable here in London, and in a way he fits


He is socially liberal, believes in same-sex marriage.


He is economically liberal, he's against the French 35-hour week.


He is the antithesis of Donald Trump.


What I like best about Macron is that he is not of the right.


Where we are now in politics, anybody who can win who is not


of the right and who will fight off the right is an asset.


It's a second-order issue precisely what policies are,


what we know is that he's not racist, he is pro-European,


And he will fight off some of the dark forces


This is a message for American researchers...


He has a canny political sense for appealing to liberals.


I do know how your new President now has decided to jeopardise your


budget, your initiatives, as he is extremely sceptical


Now, the French election comes to a showdown


Current poll ratings say he would be one of them


Which raises an interesting question.


If he is so popular in France, why isn't


Could he or his ilk make it over here?


In some ways, our old party loyalties disguise the changing


Conservative Anna Soubry is surely closer to say,


the centrist Alan Johnson in Labour, than she is to Jacob


Alan Johnson must be surely closer to her or to Nick Clegg


in the Lib Dems than he is to his own leader Jeremy Corbyn.


And you could even argue a slew of big-name Conservative and Labour


And they have a minority segment of the public behind them.


Over the last year it is clear the old ideas about left and right


are not sufficient to fully understand politics in Britain,


in France and across developed democracies.


And so in YouGov we have looked at the new tribes


And we have found that with 37% in France and 37% in Britain,


it's the pro-EU, internationalist moderates, this centrist


group, who are actually the largest single group.


And they support the EU, they support controlled immigration


And the question now is can Macron in France or indeed


any candidate in Britain or France sufficiently capture enough


The problem for British centrists is not just that they're stuck


in three different parties, the voting system makes it hard


Memories of the old SDP, a Macron-esque party of the early


'80s, instil fear in those wanting to break the mould.


As for Macron, no one really knows if he is a winner yet,


But for liberals, feeling pretty battered,


Conservative Ed Vaizey was Culture Minister from 2010-16


and Labour MP Alison McGovern is the chair of Progress -


a Labour think tank which has been associated with New Labour


in the past, and now describes itself as an organisation


which "aims to promote a radical and progressive politics


We've got you both here because we think you are pretty similar in your


politics even know you are in different parties. You are going to


concoct an argument between yourselves. Do you like Macron,


Alison? Tempting though it is to draw conclusions about what's


happening in France, the parallels are limited because there is a


totally different system in France. The internal dynamic that happens


because of their system isn't necessarily applicable. I'm keen


that we have lots of European cooperation, despite Brexit, because


my constituents' jobs depend on it but having a direct read across from


what is happening in France isn't really possible. You are the big


issues, you are in the same places? On things like the idea that in a


world where most companies of any size are multinational, I think


European cooperation is the right thing and I'm pretty sure he would


agree. I think he would. The same question to you, you have met


Macron? I spoke to him a couple of times, once when he was wooing tech


companies in London, when it was the European Union and French companies


were flowing over here. He's very charismatic and I like a lot of what


he says and a lot of his policies for France. For me as a centre-right


politician, very attractive policies, attacking the 35 hour


week, deregulating the Labour market, which urgently needs doing.


Whether he will succeed if he wins is another question. Interesting to


see Polly Toynbee endorsing him as the only backstop to stop Marine Le


Pen. He's in that position by accident because the Fillon campaign


has imploded but would she say the same thing about that, supporting


anybody who would stop Le Pen? She is more enthusiastic about Macron.


Let's get to the real gist of this, should you be in the same party? No,


absolutely not. I'm a left-wing politician. As much as I think we


should modernise our ideas and look to the future, for me, the nature of


politics is about where you come from, who you listen to, and that's


very different across the two parties. We have a different system


in Britain. I understand the Conservative Party and Labour Party


are different, I'm wondering if you are closer to Ed than Jeremy Corbyn.


I'm a Labour politician and I walk through the lobbies with Jeremy


Corbyn two of those -- to oppose a lot of what the Conservatives did


which has put the economy in a mess that when it came to the Brexit


vote, they had to protest against David Cameron and George Osborne for


what they have done. I don't buy the idea that, you know, in the centre


we are all the same. We have a different system. You aren't all the


same, it's just that the differences between new two are smaller than


those differences between your leaders. The coalition may not be


between your leader, but it may more naturally be between you and other


people in the centre. Where I think there is an important point to that


argument is that the debate we are in in Britain, everything in


politics is being flown to the ends. Brexit seems to have given a lot of


power to people on the hard right and the far right and I think that's


problematic because they don't represent the interests of the


majority of people in our country. Getting issues like, you know,


schools funding on the agenda can be really difficult because Brexit is


sweeping everything else out the way. Do you think you should be in


the same party as Alison, Ed? I agree on the point that Brexit has


thrown up talk of some kind of crazy political realignment. Maybe there


will be a Remainer realignment but people have been talking about a


third way, 20 years ago. People forget, there's a tendency,


especially for Remainers like me to characterise Brexiteers as these


insular, non-globalist parochial politicians but Boris Johnson is a


liberal, open the globalist, Michael Gove keeps a copy of Tony Blair's


autobiography on his bedside table and refers to him as the master. Why


on earth did they find themselves campaigning alongside the likes of


Nigel Farage if that's true? This is what I don't understand. Campaigns


can make unusual bedfellows as we see Polly Toynbee backing Emmanuel


Macron, she properly disagrees with his policies, to prevent something.


Remainers like me must understand why people voted for Brexit. I feel


the way it has shifted, the Remainers had given ground. Not


saying we are going to fight the referendum all over again, we're


saying we want a relationship with Europe and we will campaign for


that. That reaches back to Boris Johnson and Michael Gove who believe


in free trade, open trade and David Davis in tomorrow's Times is talking


about keeping immigration levels high because of the skills we need.


It will lead to a million arguments about whether we should be detaching


ourselves or not. The argument isn't over. The nature of our


relationship. It isn't clear what those people really think. You say


they are interested in openness and working with our European colleagues


but they've done nothing to bring about that vision. Isn't the real


vision that you as a centralist, Remainer Tory, you are harbouring


hopes that the Tory party is essentially an open party, socially


liberal, a Macron party, you hope that Theresa May is the British


Macron? I think Theresa May can be the British Macron. If I was going


to critique the last six months, and I said this in the debate on the


Article 50 bill, I hope the government changes its rhetoric and


recognises that 48% of people voted to stay in Europe because they have


that globalist and open agenda. I think Theresa May has that


opportunity. I think the Article 50 bill has given her exactly what she


perhaps didn't want, an opportunity to rally people behind the fact that


we are leaving Europe and forcing people like me to accept that and


say, what is our relationship with Europe? Now is a chance for the


government to build beaches to people who have these concerns. In


that debate a number of reasonable amendments were put down to the Bill


which would shape, make for representations on behalf or people


who voted league and remain about the Brexit they wanted and all I can


remember is the Tory MPs cheering as it was announced that the bill had


passed without amendment. Rhetoric is important but actually, deeds


matter too and we're going to face the kind of Brexit that is really


damaging to British interests. It used to be said the SDP split the


vote on the left and kept the Tories in power. Is it possible to save the


Tory Labour duopoly has the most the centrists. -- has split the votes of


the centrists. I think all political parties are a coalition because of


the system that we have in this country, first past the post and


that dictates the coalition. I would not be in the same party as Alison


because I do not think the state is the answer to our problems or higher


spending or taxes. But the funny thing is I have watched Tories in


power over the past six years running down public services and


doing real damage to their economic prospects for ordinary people. For


most people who think about politics for two minutes a week, those of the


things they want us to focus on. Thank you both.


There has been a dramatic and under-reported change


to the number of new HIV infections among gay men in the UK.


The good news is that in 2016, the rate of infection plummeted.


It's not because a vaccine was invented, it appears to be down


Quickly treating those who are recently diagnosed as HIV


positive, stops them being so infectious.


And then there is the use of pre-exposure prophylaxis - or PrEP.


A drug for treating HIV turns out to be good


The moment I was told I had HIV, it was confusing, I suppose.


They said to me, your test has come back positive.


And so without saying, you are HIV-positive,


it took me a couple of moments to really understand


I never want anyone to go through what I had


I almost died, I was in hospital for a week after my diagnosis.


We first looked at the graphs, we thought no, it can't be true.


So we went back over all our new HIV diagnoses


and each month we looked, it was the same.


But then we asked our colleagues in other clinics in London


And so we thought, it is true, it's real.


There is actually truly a reduction in new HIV diagnoses.


And I can't get across to you how excited we were because initially,


The most significant thing that's happened in that time


is that we found that a lot of people who are really high


risk who come to our clinic were taking PrEP.


So PrEP means basically giving people who are really high risk


for HIV two drugs that are used to treat HIV, to stop


And recently, in the last year, 18 months or so, increasing numbers


We've discovered this because they come into our clinics


and we ask them what medication they are taking and they tell us


Now over the course of my lifetime it's going to cost around ?300,000,


And so by providing PrEP, then it would have cost the NHS


You know, I definitely would have been taking PrEP had it been


And yeah, I probably wouldn't have HIV now.


So yeah, is there a danger that with PrEP,


And there are some studies that have demonstrated this.


It's important, though, to recognise that STI rates are high


and have been going up for quite a long time.


And were going up before PrEP became available.


So I don't think we can say with any certainty that PrEP is responsible


for the current increases that we are seeing in STI.


I don't think that now there is any doubt at all that it works.


And I think what now has to happen is that as many people


as possible who are at risk, should have access to it.


You think that there might be a time, actually reasonably soon,


where we won't get any new HIV diagnoses?


Well, I can't say how soon, I would hope soon, but I think yes.


Our producer James Clayton compiled that report.


Matthew Hodson is the Executive Director of aids


charity NAM AIDS Map, which shares information


Which is more important is it the PrEP which is not yet available on


the NHS or the treatment of new cases much earlier so they're less


infectious? Both are important, you need to recognise if people are


treated they're not an infection risk to their sexual partners and


this is important. But we have been rolling out treatment on diagnoses


since 2012. And the very dramatic drop we have seen in new HIV


infections last year, it feels it cannot just be about that because it


must be something new. The thing that has dramatically changed is


people accessing PrEP. And they're mostly doing it by self


prescription, just getting online. It is not yet available on the NHS


so some websites have been set up grassroots activists, and they're


putting people in touch with suppliers of generic PrEP drugs.


Which incidentally are cheaper than perhaps the NHS would pay.


Considerably cheaper than the NHS would be paying. The NHS would say


why would we want to buy this drug for people, especially as we would


pay full price, when it appears to be working anyway because people


will just go and buy it themselves. We have seen that dramatic drop


which is fantastic news, really exciting. But it is only reaching


those people who are well-informed, and who also have income to say I'm


going to spend about ?40 a month and if you considered the number of


people quite young gay men for example still being diagnosed with


HIV or perhaps ?40 per month is quite a considerable barrier to


them. It is exciting because we are turning a corner now and you want to


everything we have got at it because we could make a huge difference. You


definitely want the NHS to make it available on prescription for those


who say they want it? If it could be rolled out to the people who would


benefit most then you're going to have the power to end the epidemic.


How much does a license people to go off and behave with unsafe sex


because they say I have taken PrEP and I do not need it and thus


perhaps get hepatitis C or any number of sexually transmitted


infections. Condom 's have been a pillar of HIV infection since the


1980s and they still play an enormous role obviously. But we now


have this opportunity where we can do something which is going to


increase our prevention power. And we could use this. The other thing


is if people were getting PrEP on the NHS then they would be tied into


clinical services and that means they would be regularly screened and


if they had an STI there would be diagnosed and treated. It is one of


the problems we have is people accessing PrEP in the wild they may


not be getting regularly tested for STI 's. I can hear a lot of people


saying the NHS is basically does not have enough money, that is the


commonly held view, would this be a priority thing to spend money on,


basically recreational sex, as opposed to many other things the NHS


could spend money on. The kind of money we are looking at, I mean I


think figures have been branded a round of about 20 million, and it


sounds like a lot of money but if you think it is under 1% of the NHS


budget. But also it is cost-effective and with the enormous


production we have seen in diagnosis it is more cost-effective even than


we thought because it costs a lot to treat someone living with HIV. And


unless people are infecting other people because they do not have it,


how successful or significant has this been for other categories at


risk of HIV, said drug users? I think the big drops we have seen so


far have been particularly amongst gay and bisexual men and that is


partly because it has been a grassroots activism that has pushed


this. I think what we have done is proved that the concept works and I


think that increases the urgency of rolling it out to other high risk


groups like people from sub-Saharan Africa, trans women and injecting


drug users. Thank you for that. And if you have any questions


for Matthew we're going to be continuing to talk about this topic


on our Facebook Live page You sending your questions and I


will read them from my mobile phone and put them to Matthew. That will


be straight the programme for about 20 minutes. -- straight after.


Today, it's the turn of oncologist Karol Sikora with his take


Health care systems everywhere are struggling.


Ageing populations, high cost effective novel technology


and relentless demand from a Internet savvy patients


There are only three ways to pay for health care.


But Britain's NHS is mainly tax based.


It was a great concept when it began.


Free and the point of care, based on medical need,


This became the catechism for a religion with more believers


Politicians are frightened to meddle, even though


It's now cracking up, simply throwing more tax


Nearly half of the budget goes to people over 65


Younger working people would have to pay massively more for


Anything we want is just a click away, yet the NHS is the last


It is a monolithic, unmanageable and inefficient system which can't


Staff are great, but the system is not.


Nowhere in Western Europe are the targets so slack.


Two months to start cancer treatment.


Let's stop trying to fix it, let's totally change the model.


Think of the NHS as a tax -based insurance scheme covering basic


costs and allow a plethora of private providers to enter.


Fast paced, competitive and innovative, these organisations


will breathe fresh life and efficiency into


They will provide what society really wants.


Let people choose whether they wish to spend more on their health


by paying to top up their basic care, or by converting


Make no mistake, the NHS is collapsing.


Tinkering at the edges just won't work.


It needs radical surgery to bring it in line with the 21st-century.


As we sit here, peers are still debating the Brexit Bill.


Let's take a look at the House of Lords.


From here to eternity, the talk goes on.


But the expectation is that the peers will not get in the way,


and the bill to allow the government to invoke Article 50 will proceed.


But the Lords might propose an amendment on the rights of EU


citizens currently residing in the UK.


Many are known to feel strongly about it -


it will probably come up next week, rather than tonight.


How should Britain deal with continental residents here?


I'm joined by Sunder Katwala, director of the think


tank British Future, which was responsible


for a cross-party inquiry which looked into securing


the status of EEA nationals in the UK.


Thank you for joining us. The first issue, what is the cut-off date that


allows you to say you were here and not here? What was your


recommendation? We can use the date Article 50 is triggered as the date,


if you were here before that, exercising free movement rights, you


can have a guarantee of your right to settle, but if you arrive after


that, your expectations have changed, you will be part of


transitional arrangements. There is an ethical commitment. This has


legal status whereas Article 50, you get into legal problems if you try


and say something happened on the Iraq random. You can use Article 50


as the cut-off -- something happened on the referendum. How can I say


when someone arrived? If you have been here exercising your free


movement rights, then we've got a lot of footprint on you, you will be


on the DWP database. One part of the solution, rather than sending up to


1 million people back to every previous employer they've had and


collecting gas bills, if somebody has been paying tax and you got them


on the system, if government systems talk to each other, the 2 million


people who have been here for five years, it is a light touch way to


clear the easy cases. Sounds like quite a problem. How many permanent


residence claims from Europeans is the British immigration department


trying to handle, 20,000? 27,000 in the year before. The rate tripled


immediately after the referendum. It is 100 times more. Your systems


aren't up to it. What are you proposing that you do? If it isn't


up to it, that implies you could add another 10%, another few office


blocks. We know that immigration systems haven't worked well in the


past, the idea that every European should send in their passport isn't


exactly the best start to Brexit. We've got some local nationality


checking services where if you're making their passport application


you can go with your documents, they can look at the system and they can


send you home to get something if you haven't got it. That could be


the green light to the easy cases and let the Home Office deal with


the complicated cases. There could be complicated and, if we have sent


people to prison then we would exclude those people. It's up to the


government to identify the people they have sent to prison and if they


get it wrong they will be in trouble. When you guys looked at


this was it your view that only people who speak English should be


allowed to remain, that some kind of test should be applied? I think the


character and criminal record status we have for settlement should stay.


The English language citizenship test, if you are a European national


who was to become a citizen, jump through the same hoops, but we are


trying to guarantee the same rights you had before the referendum. Let's


suppose that I'm Polish and have been sending money back and in 2018,


2019I think I don't want to go back, I want to bring them over here? That


would mean a lot of extra people coming in after Article 50 but


observing the rights of a person who is already here. It gets


complicated. It does to a certain extent because there are very few


areas where European rights have superior rights to British citizens,


they don't have the income threshold if they want to marry someone. We


thought the fair thing to do was to allow those rights to exist for a


five-year phasing in period and then to phase them out so everyone is on


the same status. The principle is that people who were already here


and not expecting the change should have the same status that they have


now, that is something that all parties agreed to. Everyone agrees


that is the right thing to do. Four people including those abroad are


still waiting to hear that is what we will organise with the European


Union. Thank you for joining us. Life is sometimes brutal as we know,


but it is turning out particularly so for the wonders of brutalist


architecture in this country. Tower blocks and other


of these concrete structures For councils, it seems


easier to remove them And developers follow on behind,


putting up flats for private buyers. But all this is happening just


as many are finally appreciating Our Culture Editor,


Stephen Smith reports. These buildings have


now reached a certain need to be renovated, or sometimes


it is cheaper to knock them down. It was a recurring


rhetorical trope after the The people are the


greatest capital that Often the solution


looked a bit like this. The tower block,


the high-rise with its It's like being in


heaven up here because We've had so many


good friends up here. And these places are


just lovely for us. What excites me about them is that


they were designed with the real kind of effort going into what makes


the place good to live, what makes it a really pleasant


place to grow up, to know, to live an urban life


where you're not cut off from your Where you bump into people,


where you have quick and easy access to transport


and to shops. But it wasn't long before the first


wrinkles appeared in all that I mean in winter, his


quilt is wet through. I'm going to put him in with us


again because his bedroom is Come and help kill


the dampness dragon! Justly or otherwise,


some made a link between the concrete jungle


and the law of the jungle. The Thamesmead estate was a backdrop


to clockwork Orange, as the writers saw something dystopian in the


architecture. Couldn't get away with it! In get Carter, Michael Caine


worked off his anger in the Trinity Square shopping centre in Gateshead.


Don't look for it now, it isn't there any more.


Feel free to leave the room if you think the term iconic is overused


but that's what they call this tower in west London which was completed


in 1972 and is now a great two listed building. Some housing


campaigners are not impressed. The problem pretty immediately was that


the management costs were sky-high to make it work, lifts were being


vandalised, it became known as the Tower of Terror because of the high


risks of rape in the stairwell. That has been managed better. The problem


with a lot but not all of the post-war architecture is that they


were cutting across 2000 years of sitting making -- City making and


organic knowledge of how people want to live and where people are happy


and power. In the last 20, 30 years we've started being able to research


that thanks to big data and a greater capacity to understand where


people work. What we've learnt is that you tend to know your


neighbours less well, you have less trusting relationships with them.


The architects of the Alexandra Road estate in North London apparently


modelled it on the sinuous curves of the Georgian terraces of Bath.


What's it like to live here? We have decent people, its well-kept,


decent. You don't mind the concrete? No, I don't, I love it. The


concrete, it is an acquired taste, I'd say. But it's not horrible,


actually, it's quite comfortable and inside, the spaces are marvellous.


Would you fancy one of these? I don't know, too many windows for me.


A love to keep clean. Absolutely. As if to prove that appreciation for


brutalism is growing in some quarters it was recently adorned by


Tom Hiddleston's own desirable superstructure. I'm so sorry! I'll


survive. I don't doubt it. Your excellent specimen. I thought you


were empty. I've just moved in. It's all too late to save this estate in


east London, destined for the Iraq's ball. Most of the critics, most of


the strongest critics of post-war architecture are people who don't


live in it. Buildings like this can be a wonderful place to live. Places


that are perceived as being attached to post-war architecture is really


the disparity between the grand utopian aspirations and the reality


which can never meet the future that was imagined for many of these


buildings. Tomorrow we will be in Stoke ahead


of the by-election. Don't forget I'll be on Facebook


Live in a couple of minutes taking your questions for our guest


on falling HIV rates. We leave you with news that BBC1


is to re-examine the sound mixing on their new Sunday night drama


SS-GB, after the 90% of the population with cheap TVs


complained they couldn't Those passes you took are just


about the most valuable piece of paper a foreigner


can be given. Anyway as a favour to our sister


channel, we've arranged to have the show redubbed for them -


by Radio 4 Newsreaders Zeb Soames Those passes you took are just


about the most valuable piece of paper a foreigner


can be given. That's what we are as far as you're


concerned, foreigners. The Germans are the ones


with the right to be here, and we are the intruders


who have to bow and bloody scrape. Get your hands off me,


you bloody Gestapo bastard.


Newsnight looks at French presidential candidate Emmanuel Macron, why HIV is disappearing so fast, the NHS and communism, brutalist architecture and Brexit.

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