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A city that has found itself in the national spotlight | :00:00. | :00:08. | |
in the last few weeks thanks to a local by-election tomorrow. | :00:09. | :00:17. | |
With an audience, politicians and experts, we are looking at the | :00:18. | :00:23. | |
relationship between government in London, Stoke and the great | :00:24. | :00:25. | |
industrial towns and cities elsewhere. Nobody has ever knocked | :00:26. | :00:31. | |
on my door during the election time, ever. | :00:32. | :00:44. | |
36000 and 27. People are frightened, you can tell. They are. Do you see | :00:45. | :00:57. | |
Ukip as a party of the left, like Labour? Yes, far left. Not a | :00:58. | :01:02. | |
backwater, but I have heard said of Stoke. | :01:03. | :01:13. | |
They are so prosperous in London, I think they think we are a lot of | :01:14. | :01:21. | |
idiots or something like that. If I could do that today, I would. It was | :01:22. | :01:27. | |
hard work. But everybody was happy. In those days, yes. I want people to | :01:28. | :01:33. | |
have hope and they have not got any help. -- hope. | :01:34. | :01:40. | |
Our programme comes from Stoke this evening. | :01:41. | :01:43. | |
In fact, we're in the Stoke Central constituency that votes tomorrow. | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
We're at the beautiful Regent Theatre, replete | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
with a Wedgewood style cupola - a reference to the designs | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
of Josiah Wedgewood, who made this area so famous. | :01:55. | :01:56. | |
He, with many others, made the Potteries a global centre | :01:57. | :01:59. | |
of ceramic and tableware manufacture. | :02:00. | :02:01. | |
There was also a sizeable steel industry, by the way, | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
Many of the manufacturing jobs have gone and service and distribution | :02:07. | :02:14. | |
jobs have replaced them, not to everybody's satisfaction. | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
And that means this by-election has made this | :02:18. | :02:19. | |
There is a feeling that people here have fallen out | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
with the governing classes of all parties. | :02:25. | :02:28. | |
When Stoke voted overwhelmingly for Brexit, many said it was out | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
of a sense that things needed to change. | :02:32. | :02:33. | |
We're up on stage with a local audience. | :02:34. | :02:39. | |
Not as big an audience, I'm afraid, as the stalls below us would hold. | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
But we will be hearing from this group in a moment and over | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
And we also have a panel of politicians and | :02:48. | :02:50. | |
I want to start with the Stoke perspective on politics. | :02:51. | :02:57. | |
Not about the by-election, but national politics. | :02:58. | :03:03. | |
Straight to the audience. A lot of people say what they think you think | :03:04. | :03:10. | |
Sue will ask you what you think. What do you think politics in | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
Westminster has got right or wrong over the last two decades? Any | :03:15. | :03:23. | |
views? I think the politicians are out of touch with people and | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
reality, they don't go around enough to see what damage they are doing | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
with their decisions at Westminster. They are completely out of touch | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
with reality. Give me an example. Something that is concrete. They | :03:37. | :03:43. | |
were spending ?50 billion on HS2, which nobody wants, digging up the | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
countryside and not in consultation with the electorate. It doesn't come | :03:49. | :03:54. | |
out of their back pocket and we have to pay for it. Any other views on | :03:55. | :04:02. | |
how Westminster has been doing? I will jump around. Madam? Obviously, | :04:03. | :04:13. | |
Parliament has become about party bashing rather than debate and | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
politicians from different parties are not represented. If you look at | :04:20. | :04:22. | |
the government, they were not elected by a majority of the | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
country, more people did not vote conservative than did so. Do you | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
support proportional representation? Yes, that would be the democratic | :04:33. | :04:38. | |
way. How many of you are basically fed up with politics? Yes to that? | :04:39. | :04:48. | |
How many say you are not fed up with politics? Quite a divide but most of | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
you are not fed up because there is a sense of disconnect. Somebody who | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
said they were not fed up? I am fed up. Just saying! Madam? Near the | :05:00. | :05:13. | |
back. What do you think, how connected is Westminster? Understand | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
the problems of cities like Stoke which have seen enormous changes in | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
the economy? Politicians are completely disconnected with the | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
people, I believe in politics and the political system, we have one of | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
the Best democracies in the world but I think there is a huge | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
disconnect, they have no idea of what it is like outside London and | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
it sounds weird for me, I am a Londoner, but I have been here since | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
the 1980s and what is going on in Stoke, the politicians and MPs just | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
do not seem to be able to take that back to London and say what people | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
want. Who champions Stoke? Who do you look to? Local authorities? | :05:53. | :06:00. | |
Someone from Stoke in the Houses of Parliament? Rather than Robbie | :06:01. | :06:08. | |
Williams? I think local MPs are very good at trying to talk to the local | :06:09. | :06:15. | |
communities but it is not getting back and bringing in funding to the | :06:16. | :06:23. | |
city, it is not happening. We will come back to you through the | :06:24. | :06:24. | |
programme. Before we go to the national | :06:25. | :06:26. | |
politicians, we're going to head out into town and catch up | :06:27. | :06:28. | |
on the by-election. Stoke Central has been a Labour seat | :06:29. | :06:30. | |
since it was invented decades ago. UKIP came second in the general | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
election, though, and yet it is the Conservatives who are way | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
ahead in the national opinion polls. A lot of eyes are focused on this | :06:38. | :06:43. | |
one - including those of our own John Sweeney, | :06:44. | :06:45. | |
who's been watching the campaign. Stoke-on-Trent, once | :06:46. | :06:59. | |
the home of pits and pots, Yet it has become | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
a by-election crucible It is here where Ukip | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
post-Brexit has been making big efforts to win a foothold | :07:09. | :07:15. | |
in Labour's angry heartlands. The seat has been Labour's | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
for three generations, yet Jeremy Corbyn has admitted | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
it is on a knife edge. If Labour loses places like Stoke, | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
where a donkey with a red rosette could once win comfortably, | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
then Corbyn is in dire trouble. In Stoke, particularly, | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
you have three parties, 5000 votes behind them, | :07:38. | :07:39. | |
in equal second place in 2015, The common assumption is this | :07:40. | :07:46. | |
is an area where Ukip should do better, it is not natural territory | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
for the Conservatives. But on the other hand, in national | :07:53. | :07:54. | |
polling since the referendum, we have seen the Conservatives | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
gaining a big chunk of vote, much of it perhaps coming from Ukip | :07:59. | :08:00. | |
voters who are quite happy with Theresa May's | :08:01. | :08:03. | |
hard Brexit approach. If that gets reflected in Stoke, it | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
could become a race between Labour But then Labour have to think | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
about their Remain flank, Is those leack across to | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
the Liberal Democrats, something that has been happening | :08:14. | :08:23. | |
quite consistently in local by-elections, it also happened | :08:24. | :08:25. | |
famously in the Richmond by-election that they took, then, | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
all of a sudden, you have four But as polling day draws nigh, | :08:30. | :08:32. | |
this by-election here in Stoke is becoming not just | :08:33. | :08:38. | |
about whether Brexit is the new fault line in British | :08:39. | :08:41. | |
politics or Labour's troubles, but more about whether Ukip's Paul | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
Nuttall has been telling the truth about something that happened | :08:47. | :08:48. | |
in his past. The man who now fills Nigel Farage's | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
brogues as Ukip leader believes his party has taken over | :08:55. | :08:57. | |
from Labour as the voice This place needs to be put | :08:58. | :09:00. | |
on the political map. It needs more investment | :09:01. | :09:08. | |
into the constituency. I believe when I stand up | :09:09. | :09:10. | |
in the House of Commons And if they have a national | :09:11. | :09:13. | |
political figure, we can ensure that more money comes up | :09:14. | :09:16. | |
to Stoke-on-Trent Central. But it is the Hillsborough tragedy | :09:17. | :09:23. | |
that has dogged Nuttall throughout the campaign, | :09:24. | :09:26. | |
with him facing allegations that he had not been | :09:27. | :09:29. | |
at the ground at all. Yes, I was 12 and | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
a half years of age. I was there with my family | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
and we were in the upper tier It was something I have very | :09:38. | :09:40. | |
rarely spoken about. Whether people were dead at that | :09:41. | :09:47. | |
point, I don't know. There were certainly people | :09:48. | :09:59. | |
teeming onto the pitch. I remember my dad, and thankfully, | :10:00. | :10:01. | |
my dad quickly realised And we left the stadium, | :10:02. | :10:03. | |
we were one of the first out. Why hasn't he given a statement | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
on public so we can hear it We actually gave the newspaper | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
witness statements, people Look, my dad and my family, | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
they are private individuals, OK? This isn't a court of law | :10:19. | :10:25. | |
where you are innocent You are trying to | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
become the MP here. And therefore, you have to go out | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
and prove your innocence. Well, look, I think the fact that | :10:34. | :10:36. | |
I have been prepared to go to Operation Resolve and give | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
a witness statement I have told them that I am | :10:41. | :10:42. | |
prepared to stand up In normal times, Labour's Gareth | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
Snell should be a shoo-in The Labour Party is the party that | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
will protect the NHS. It will give the funding | :10:52. | :11:02. | |
that our hospitals and our social Because we are the party that | :11:03. | :11:05. | |
will make Brexit work Stoke-on-Trent needs an MP | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
who is going to go to Westminster and work for the people | :11:10. | :11:16. | |
of Stoke-on-Trent, not But not like, say, | :11:17. | :11:18. | |
Alfred Lord Tennyson. "Soft Brexit, hard Brexit, | :11:19. | :11:26. | |
massive pile of sh*t. Sloppy Brexit, messy | :11:27. | :11:28. | |
Brexit, quit, quit, quit. For the fact that she was not | :11:29. | :11:30. | |
delivering a Brexit And after four months after telling | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
us that there was a plan, She was vacillating, | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
she was dithering, and that was damaging | :11:41. | :11:43. | |
the local industry. There is going to be Brexit. | :11:44. | :11:45. | |
You support that? Aren't you turning on a sixpence | :11:46. | :11:54. | |
into what you yourself said, in September, is a massive | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
pile of sh*t? No, what I said in September | :12:00. | :12:01. | |
was the fact that the Prime Minister was not delivering the plan, | :12:02. | :12:04. | |
Article 50 has now been... And what I will say is that Brexit | :12:05. | :12:07. | |
is not the end of something, Stoke politics, for the best part | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
of 20 years, has featured a fairly large disaffected, | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
perhaps anti-politics vote, it has gone in some elections | :12:16. | :12:18. | |
to independence, this was an area that was also an area of strength | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
for the BNP. And Ukip have since surged | :12:23. | :12:24. | |
on the back of that sentiment. So there is a long-running sense | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
of the system is not working for us and we want to change | :12:28. | :12:30. | |
it type sentiment. The Liberal Democrats | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
came fifth in 2015. But they are pushing | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
hard on being the only Mainly it is the NHS and secondly, | :12:40. | :12:42. | |
we also talk about the Brexit issue. Especially, when I talk to them | :12:43. | :12:49. | |
that we want people to have another say on the final deal when it comes | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
to leaving the European Union. And people listen to it | :12:53. | :12:58. | |
and I think there is quite I am speaking to people | :12:59. | :13:01. | |
on the doorsteps. The Greens think they could | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
boost their showing We're going to be working | :13:07. | :13:07. | |
in the community, we're going to be talking about the things that matter | :13:08. | :13:15. | |
in their daily lives. Like getting gridlock | :13:16. | :13:17. | |
off of the roads. Unfortunately, some | :13:18. | :13:19. | |
national parties... Brexit is important to people | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
but I think quality-of-life in this area and how we can improve things, | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
I know we can show this area to the world, which is the great | :13:28. | :13:30. | |
thing this by-election does. The Tories are riding | :13:31. | :13:33. | |
extraordinarily high Lots of people in this area | :13:34. | :13:35. | |
feel let down by Labour, that Labour doesn't represent | :13:36. | :13:45. | |
them any more. And also, people who were thinking | :13:46. | :13:48. | |
about voting Ukip are now thinking about the Conservatives | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
because we are the only ones with a clear plan | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
to deliver Brexit. If Labour win and Ukip lose here, | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
maybe you could see it as a moment when the rising tide of populism | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
which has been surging across the Western world | :14:04. | :14:06. | |
is beginning to run out of energy. A Labour victory would be parlayed | :14:07. | :14:17. | |
by Team Corbyn as a great success. And that, in a safe seat like Stoke, | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
just tells you how desperate things The word is that | :14:21. | :14:23. | |
turnout will be low. But tomorrow, the attention | :14:24. | :14:35. | |
of the British political establishment and wider yet will be | :14:36. | :14:37. | |
on this lovely old town There are ten candidates standing | :14:38. | :14:39. | |
in the Stoke Central by-election, And you can see the list | :14:40. | :14:55. | |
on the politics section We have both here in | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
Regent Theatre in Stoke. Three leading politicians, | :15:02. | :15:10. | |
Peter Whittle is the deputy leader of Ukip, and group leader | :15:11. | :15:12. | |
on the London Assembly. Mark Harper is the Conservative MP | :15:13. | :15:15. | |
for the Forest of Dean, he's a former Chief Whip | :15:16. | :15:18. | |
and was an Immigration Minister Also, for Labour we have | :15:19. | :15:20. | |
Debbie Abrahams, who is the Shadow Work and Pensions | :15:21. | :15:28. | |
Secretary. And also with us here | :15:29. | :15:30. | |
is Geoff Evans, who was brought up here, worked in the pottery | :15:31. | :15:33. | |
industry, and is now a professor at Oxford University, specialising | :15:34. | :15:35. | |
in the sociology of politics. Thank you for coming. Mark Harper, | :15:36. | :15:54. | |
your party is in government. DUP guilty to big, old traditional | :15:55. | :16:04. | |
industrial towns being neglected by Westminster -- do you plead guilty. | :16:05. | :16:10. | |
I think Theresa May made it quite clear, and audience forgive me for | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
using a slogan, but a country that works for everyone. She's made it | :16:16. | :16:18. | |
clear one of the lessons she took from the Brexit decision was that | :16:19. | :16:21. | |
there were parts of the country that felt they were left behind. And one | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
of the things the government should do is look at making sure parts of | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
the country where traditional industries have disappeared, | :16:30. | :16:31. | |
actually we thought about how to make sure we got things like | :16:32. | :16:42. | |
motoring, getting that industry back here. I think she recognises that | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
and that's one of the things she wants to deliver. There was an | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
industrial green paper, can you name me one thing in that but we haven't | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
tried before? I think actually the floor in what you've just said is | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
that it wasn't one thing, it's a strategy. Just name one thing. If | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
there's a whole strategy, just name one thing. Part of it is about the | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
government looking at the industries Britain thinks it will be successful | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
in, thinking about how it can help them. If you take the car industry | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
for example, some of the investment in battery technology... There was | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
no money in the green paper, the government didn't say it is | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
investing in battery technology. I'm asking for one thing in the | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
industrial strategy which might affect industry in Stoke. If I had | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
to pick one thing it would be about making sure that we did a better job | :17:36. | :17:42. | |
of investing in skills. We spent the last three decades talking about | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
investing in skills. We've had loads of reforms of the skills agenda. The | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
question is, we've done a lot of reform, the question is has it been | :17:53. | :17:55. | |
as successful as it should be. Why will it be another reform, be better | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
than the last government did, or the one that your government did in the | :18:02. | :18:04. | |
1990s? One of the things we've done with the apprenticeship levy and | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
things like that is making sure you get businesses to invest in the | :18:09. | :18:11. | |
areas they need to, to be successful. One of the things I | :18:12. | :18:17. | |
think, areas of the country, I think it was in your introduction, where | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
we had trait in macro changes in trade and globalisation, there are | :18:22. | :18:24. | |
parts of the country and people that haven't kept up with the changes and | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
haven't therefore been able to be as successful as they should have been. | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
I think that's what the industrial strategy and what the Prime Minister | :18:33. | :18:35. | |
is intending to do. That's why Stoke needs a strong voice tomorrow. I | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
can't say I'm clear about what the industrial strategy is. Let me that | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
the same question, DUP guilty to having overlooked or neglected the | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
interests of some of these big Northern, Midlands, towns and | :18:50. | :18:52. | |
cities, particularly the ones that have had big industrial change? | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
Clearly, the woman who commented at the beginning that she feels | :18:58. | :19:03. | |
alienated, that there has been the divide, we can't ignore that. That's | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
how people feel. And yes, the figures also bear that out, in terms | :19:08. | :19:14. | |
of the investment, the labour market inequalities. There are parts of | :19:15. | :19:21. | |
Stoke that doing really poorly in terms of unemployment sickness. What | :19:22. | :19:27. | |
happened, you admitted you got it wrong, where usage used by the banks | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
in London and the tax they pay? What was it? I'm not in London, I live | :19:32. | :19:39. | |
around my constituency. I was a public health consultant before I | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
became an MP. One of the reasons I became active was I care | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
passionately about the NHS. Other people have mentioned this as well. | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
Perhaps it's a bit in terms of why people get into politics. The | :19:53. | :19:58. | |
question wasn't why have Westminster politicians, you say they haven't | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
neglected Stoke... Why has politics neglected Stoke? I think it is | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
partly about investment but it's also about how we have done politics | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
for a long while now. If you look at how politics involves over the 20th | :20:14. | :20:21. | |
century around community around being based in York community, and | :20:22. | :20:29. | |
politicians being part of the community, taking on board the | :20:30. | :20:32. | |
issues, recognising them and doing something about it, that's what | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
we've got to change. I call it the community development type of | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
approach to politics, where we engage and involve... We are public | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
servants, we reflect and represent the views of our constituents, and | :20:46. | :20:51. | |
part of our communities. The points have been made about democracy, | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
absolutely. That's fundamental to what we should be about as | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
politicians. You've heard about an industrial strategy, you've heard | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
about and out their politics from Debbie Abrahams. Are you satisfied, | :21:05. | :21:11. | |
dissatisfied with what you've heard? I think part of the problem is we | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
get forgotten as a city. We've fallen between the north and the | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
north-west, the Midlands, we slipped in between the cracks. Because we've | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
had three macro Labour MPs for decades, the Conservatives don't | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
they can win until recently and traditionally Labour take the votes | :21:31. | :21:33. | |
for granted. There's no incentive for politicians in London to bother | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
with cities like Stoke. If you're a marginal seat they give you more and | :21:39. | :21:47. | |
attention. Both those politicians gave very fluent answers, but like | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
you say, they didn't really answer the core question. Stoke has always | :21:53. | :21:59. | |
been a Labour seat. Maybe it will be a good thing if they voted a bit | :22:00. | :22:07. | |
differently tomorrow and a shot in the arm and Ukip got in, maybe it | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
would give a bit more attention to Stoke. Someone else had their hand | :22:12. | :22:19. | |
up? Is all well and good investing in skills, but there's nothing in | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
the local area that warrants them. The biggest industries are call | :22:24. | :22:29. | |
centres, care homes and distribution centres, they aren't skilled | :22:30. | :22:35. | |
employment. Peter Whittle, we've heard, and I know this from other | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
pieces we've run on Newsnight, we've always voted Labour, they've taken | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
us for granted, that is your pitch hair. But you alternative | :22:45. | :22:50. | |
government? You're a UK Independence party, you're about Brexit and | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
you've got Brexit, what is the point of Ukip now? We aren't just about | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
Brexit any more. Obviously Brexit has happened in terms of a | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
referendum, but the fact is it's far from happened yet. It's very, very | :23:04. | :23:10. | |
instructive because you're talking about the difference between | :23:11. | :23:12. | |
Westminster and the rest of the country. The rest of the country are | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
looking on, and have been looking on at Westminster thinking, what the | :23:17. | :23:23. | |
hell is going on? If you're a party of government, what would you do for | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
Stoke? And towns and cities like Stoke? First of all, I completely | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
agree that Westminster is totally out of touch. You're sounding like | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
an old-style politician. I said what would you do, and you immediately | :23:39. | :23:41. | |
said the other politicians are no good. We've accepted people feel let | :23:42. | :23:48. | |
down by politicians. First of all, huge problems with infrastructure in | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
Stoke, huge problems in social housing. Labour has been in for 50 | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
years, there hasn't been one single new council house built in 30 years, | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
can you believe that? We would like a golden age of council housing. I'm | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
a great believer, and we are as a party, in social housing. Because | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
basically, it helps build solid communities, my grandparents were in | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
council housing. It means people are not constantly fighting to get on | :24:17. | :24:23. | |
the ladder. They can actually build a real community. Debbie Abrahams, | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
that sounds like what should be able Labour policy, with respect. What | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
happened there? It is a Labour policy. You were in government all | :24:33. | :24:38. | |
those years. It's a fair point and we didn't get everything right. You | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
haven't built any houses in Stoke for 30 years. I can't defend that, | :24:44. | :24:49. | |
we should have done. We now know we've got the lowest level of social | :24:50. | :24:56. | |
housing building since the 1920s. We do need it. It's absolutely key. For | :24:57. | :25:02. | |
our young people to have a future. We've got generation rent, haven't | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
we. They need to feel secure, being able to afford to invest in their | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
communities... You would be building more council houses just as Ukip | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
would? Why is the government not doing that, it's talked about | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
building more houses but a lot of people think it should be council | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
housing. The housing White Paper we published a couple of weeks ago | :25:25. | :25:27. | |
covered all of the types of tenure. It talked about people being able to | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
buy but it also talked about people being able to rent, both social | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
housing and in the private rented sector. It looked at all of them and | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
the house-building numbers now, as the housing minister said, people | :25:41. | :25:44. | |
can't live in planning permissions, and the number of houses built last | :25:45. | :25:51. | |
year was 190,000, so we are on track to build the 1 million houses over | :25:52. | :25:54. | |
the parliament. I think we do have a plan to deliver it. The whole | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
political establishment has been completely neglectful of this. Just | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
go around any part of Stoke or the six cities of Stoke, or any of the | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
cities we are talking about. There is absolutely no question about it, | :26:10. | :26:12. | |
that when all those council houses were sold off, the money was simply | :26:13. | :26:18. | |
frittered away. It should have been kept and reinvested in new housing. | :26:19. | :26:21. | |
It's exactly what we should be doing now. We are believers in the | :26:22. | :26:27. | |
cultural life of the country is just as important as the economic one. | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
That's when things like social housing are so important. Jeff | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
Evans, you have documented quite a lot of political alienation in some | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
areas of the country from what is going on at Westminster. Do you | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
think it's because people have found better things to do and they are | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
bored of politics, or do you blame the politicians? I blame the | :26:50. | :26:52. | |
politicians, very much so. For a long time people have ignored class | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
divisions, they pretended they either don't matter any more... What | :26:58. | :27:04. | |
is actually changing isn't the class divisions in our society but what | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
politicians offer. I have to put the blame on Labour on this one, because | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
during the 90s in particular Labour were so keen to appeal to the | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
affluent middle class electoral base, they distance as they possibly | :27:20. | :27:27. | |
could. Basically there are no working-class people as MPs any | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
more. The rhetoric adopted by Labour, by Tony Blair, was very much | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
chosen to be acceptable to the Metropolitan London middle classes | :27:36. | :27:42. | |
and similar travellers. People find it hard to believe in politicians | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
who don't share any point of social contact. They've got alien accents, | :27:49. | :27:56. | |
Labour is increasingly Oxbridge, it doesn't have any trade union intake | :27:57. | :27:59. | |
in terms of working-class people. You've got the odd Remain Campaign | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
alike Alan Johnson, he's not really there any more. They've left their | :28:05. | :28:11. | |
social connection. Labour more than the Tories on this. How many of you | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
are Labour voters? We balance the panel to some extent. Do any of you | :28:17. | :28:23. | |
agree with what Jeff is saying about the party you are going to support? | :28:24. | :28:34. | |
Do you agree with what he has said? I think they are all London | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
Metropolitan. He is bang on. There's no working-class MPs any more. I | :28:40. | :28:47. | |
think they have deserted the working class, Labour. Debbie Abrahams, that | :28:48. | :28:54. | |
is a feeling and a sentiment, you recognise it? That can't be ignored. | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
Gareth is a local lad, he's worked in the community. I think there is, | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
we are doing politics differently. We didn't get it all right, in spite | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
of much good stuff that we did, and we haven't talked about the health | :29:10. | :29:14. | |
service. I'd like to know Ukip's position on that, which is a real | :29:15. | :29:20. | |
local issue. It's absolutely clear. It's not absolutely clear at all. I | :29:21. | :29:24. | |
was in a by-election with Paul Nuttall when he said he wanted to | :29:25. | :29:30. | |
privatise the NHS. This is absolutely untrue. The most | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
important thing is that my party, Ukip, has always stood on a platform | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
of celebrating the NHS and believing it should be free at the point of | :29:40. | :29:41. | |
delivery. It was the by-election I was elected | :29:42. | :29:52. | |
to in 2011. The fact is that Paul Nuttall said some things about | :29:53. | :29:59. | |
certain areas of the NHS about procurement, about five years ago, | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
and he has said I change my mind. The important thing, whether he | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
changes his mind or not, is that Ukip manifesto in 2015 was | :30:10. | :30:15. | |
absolutely clear, we Remain clear, we believe... In the national Health | :30:16. | :30:21. | |
Service, not international. We will get the other experts back. We have | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
a lot to get through. I will thank the panel. | :30:27. | :30:28. | |
Let's pause the conversation for a moment. | :30:29. | :30:30. | |
In a few minutes we'll see if there are any specific ideas | :30:31. | :30:33. | |
for bringing extra life to the economy here. | :30:34. | :30:35. | |
But first, Katie Razzall has been hearing about life here, | :30:36. | :30:38. | |
as it was, and some hope it might be. | :30:39. | :30:40. | |
Time to pause and reflect now, Katie Razzall has been hearing | :30:41. | :30:42. | |
about life in Stoke, as it was, and how | :30:43. | :30:44. | |
The people of Stoke need a voice from our politicians. | :30:45. | :30:58. | |
I want people to have hope, and they haven't got hope. | :30:59. | :31:08. | |
People have felt forgotten and left behind. | :31:09. | :31:14. | |
We feel like we are at a crossroads, but I feel that it's an opportunity | :31:15. | :31:17. | |
to change the way that people see Stoke. | :31:18. | :31:34. | |
If the overwhelming out vote put Stoke on the political map, | :31:35. | :31:36. | |
this by-election will send another message about what people here want | :31:37. | :31:39. | |
Newsnight's returned to Stoke's Bentilee estate, | :31:40. | :31:42. | |
Where the raffle comes with a variety of prizes. | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
Many here had highly-skilled jobs in Stoke's once proud Potteries. | :31:48. | :32:01. | |
If I could do that job today I would. | :32:02. | :32:06. | |
How do you make Stoke happy again, for you? | :32:07. | :32:17. | |
Well, the NHS, we'd like that to get better than it is. | :32:18. | :32:23. | |
Because like I say, people are frightened to get old. | :32:24. | :32:26. | |
We need manufacturing, we need apprenticeships. | :32:27. | :32:29. | |
They made the biggest mistake they ever did | :32:30. | :32:31. | |
But we've got no skilled workers, without going to those | :32:32. | :32:38. | |
The majority here who voted in the referendum told me | :32:39. | :32:41. | |
they voted out, no matter their political affiliation. | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
Do you see Ukip as a party of the left, like labour? | :32:46. | :32:48. | |
Previously Labour, Tony's voting Ukip in the by-election. | :32:49. | :32:56. | |
He's going to put this city on the map. | :32:57. | :33:00. | |
He's going to try and build this city up, because other | :33:01. | :33:06. | |
parts of the country, they think Stoke-on-Trent's a dump. | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
Uniting young and old in a city where some feel almost written off. | :33:11. | :33:28. | |
This lady is a stalwart on the estate. | :33:29. | :33:35. | |
It's not our first encounter, but this time it's her birthday | :33:36. | :33:37. | |
I just want it to be totally different for these kids. | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
And the MP is not going to provide that. | :33:43. | :34:05. | |
Across in Hanley, in the so-called Cultural Quarter, it feels | :34:06. | :34:17. | |
Entrepreneurs and artists are building a future in a city | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
I am hoping that we don't end up with a Ukip MP, for one thing. | :34:23. | :34:34. | |
I think, I am hoping it is a chance for Stoke to show the country | :34:35. | :34:40. | |
what we all know about the city, that it is a welcoming, | :34:41. | :34:43. | |
Not a backwater, which I have heard said of Stoke. | :34:44. | :34:49. | |
The gallery offers residencies to graduates to attract | :34:50. | :34:51. | |
All part of efforts to revive the city through culture. | :34:52. | :35:00. | |
Change doesn't happen overnight and I think we're not there yet. | :35:01. | :35:03. | |
Stoke is not at that tipping point yet. | :35:04. | :35:05. | |
But it feels to me that we are close. | :35:06. | :35:07. | |
And I think that is why the result is so important, | :35:08. | :35:09. | |
A negative result could really set Stoke back. | :35:10. | :35:19. | |
I don't think it has ever been this great. | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
This entrepreneur's Hanley coffee shop is now in its third year. | :35:24. | :35:34. | |
I think the things that we really want to focus on and could really do | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
And to achieve that, says another Hanley entrepreneur, | :35:40. | :35:42. | |
An MP needs to balance between being local and still | :35:43. | :35:49. | |
How does Stoke fit in with the national agenda | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
Because without that bigger push and that drive, | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
I think we are in risk of just staying where we are. | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
Stoke's future could be brighter than it has been recently. | :36:03. | :36:04. | |
And while people across the city may not agree on how to achieve | :36:05. | :36:07. | |
that, surely everyone, no matter their politics, | :36:08. | :36:09. | |
is united by the feeling that the city they love deserves | :36:10. | :36:12. | |
Now, I'm still with my panel of politicians, but I'd | :36:13. | :36:20. | |
like to bring in some external commentators now. | :36:21. | :36:23. | |
Afua Hirsch, journalist and broadcaster and who has written | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
on Britishness and identity, Hugo Dixon is a journalist, | :36:29. | :36:31. | |
economist, and entrepreneur, and was a passionate Remain | :36:32. | :36:34. | |
And Iain Martin is a Times columnist, and edits | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
Reaction, a web platform for commentary and discussion. | :36:40. | :36:42. | |
He was a prominent leaver back last June. | :36:43. | :36:49. | |
I want to focus on specific things that can be done to improve | :36:50. | :36:58. | |
political engagement and help communities, such as Stoke and to | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
get away from words. You have thought about social integration and | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
the sense of well-being and identity. What would you do as | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
opposed to just saying things about that? Listening to the people in the | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
audience and the voices in that package, this is about alienation | :37:17. | :37:22. | |
and people wanting to be heard and from my perspective, these are | :37:23. | :37:24. | |
long-term problems with the political system and what people | :37:25. | :37:27. | |
want, to hear an old person saying it is scary to get old because the | :37:28. | :37:33. | |
NHS is in freefall is appalling. Not acceptable. Instead of offering | :37:34. | :37:36. | |
answers, politicians are exploiting the quick fix by offering leaving | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
the European Union, stopping immigration, things which will not | :37:42. | :37:44. | |
solve these problems and they play on the sense that identity is under | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
threat instead of addressing the very tangible things that people | :37:49. | :37:54. | |
want. Are you saying... A lot of people have said there is a sense of | :37:55. | :37:59. | |
cultural discombobulated, there is too much change, people do not feel | :38:00. | :38:03. | |
this is their country any more, is that a distraction from the kind of | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
things like the NHS? That is what it is interesting about here, when you | :38:09. | :38:14. | |
drill into what people really want here, everyone we have heard from, | :38:15. | :38:22. | |
it is children centres, the NHS working, school places, things are | :38:23. | :38:24. | |
functional government should provide. Social housing. These are | :38:25. | :38:30. | |
achievable things and they are not the things that can be solved by any | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
of the major platforms that parties offer, like leaving the EU and | :38:36. | :38:39. | |
stopping immigration. They are the symptoms and not causes of problems. | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
You are very intimate with this area. Does that ring true? Yes, it | :38:45. | :38:52. | |
does. One of the key things about this area, talking about political | :38:53. | :38:58. | |
engagement, is that nobody votes. Just under 50% of people who voted | :38:59. | :39:03. | |
in the 20 15th election, one of the lowest if not the lowest ever in | :39:04. | :39:06. | |
Britain and this is because people do not feel they are being | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
represented with the choices available. Is that bread and butter | :39:11. | :39:14. | |
issues like the NHS that they feel are not looked after or is it flags | :39:15. | :39:20. | |
and symbols and nationality and immigration? That is interesting | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
because when Labour were in power and when things were going well | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
economically, they spent a lot of money on the NHS, and they still | :39:29. | :39:35. | |
haemorrhaged votes in places like Stoke, it is not about that sheer | :39:36. | :39:40. | |
economic thing, it is about rhetoric and symbols and immigration, for | :39:41. | :39:49. | |
example, part of Labour's strategy in 2004, to open the doors to | :39:50. | :39:53. | |
European immigration, that led to a decline in their appeal amongst many | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
people in places like Stoke. One of the key differences between 2015 and | :39:58. | :40:03. | |
2016 is a massive 16% jump in participation in Stoke, far more | :40:04. | :40:09. | |
than the jump in more affluent parts of the country. Given the choice, | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
the simple choice about something they cared about, people will | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
participate. Iain Martin, you are free-market man, you are not a fan | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
of government, a lot of the ideas were hearing about are basically | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
government ideas, council houses, more money for the NHS. Is that a | :40:29. | :40:36. | |
fair reflection? This might be what people want, my concern is I would | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
argue that the only thing which can really work is dramatically | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
increasing growth and the market functioning smartly and starting new | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
companies and creating jobs, there is a lot that can be done. And I | :40:49. | :40:56. | |
think that we talk about technical skills and scaling up, dramatically | :40:57. | :41:00. | |
improving the education system, the single biggest thing that happens | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
nationally to make a difference is taxing the economy differently, | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
taxing big corporations and global technology companies properly and | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
taking some of the pressure away from small business and new | :41:13. | :41:18. | |
businesses and the tax system is skewed against them so there is a | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
lot that can be done. My criticism is the government does not have any | :41:23. | :41:27. | |
agenda for after Brexit, for helping places like Stoke and making the | :41:28. | :41:31. | |
economy more dynamic to create jobs. Hugo Dixon, big on Remain, do you | :41:32. | :41:42. | |
think the London establishment, did they run out of ideas for places | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
like Stoke? Iain Martin has come up with things we have heard... I think | :41:47. | :41:52. | |
so, there has been a serious problem of geographic justice in our country | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
and this is something we need to address. -- injustice. And it is | :41:58. | :42:05. | |
partly going to involve money so we are going to have to invest in those | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
towns and cities like Stoke which have been left behind and that will | :42:11. | :42:16. | |
have to be investing in skills, and it was interesting to earlier hear | :42:17. | :42:20. | |
about the government industrial strategy, the green paper, the new | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
money for the country was ?170 million, that is not enough. It is | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
other things, other sorts of things like infrastructure, so that what | :42:31. | :42:36. | |
you need is cities like Stoke, they must be able to generate the | :42:37. | :42:41. | |
opportunity and must have the infrastructure and the skills so | :42:42. | :42:44. | |
that the sort of market solutions that Iain Martin is talking about | :42:45. | :42:50. | |
can actually bear fruit. If what you are seeing, and you are in a lot of | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
these times, despite what we have heard about the cultural quarter, | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
you are seeing the brain drain from a lot of these times, and we have | :43:00. | :43:05. | |
one of the brilliant minds here who is not in Oxford. That is one thing | :43:06. | :43:08. | |
but beyond money, we need something on a political level and on that | :43:09. | :43:14. | |
level I think we need to have a significant devolution of power. Not | :43:15. | :43:22. | |
just to Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland but to the regions | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
of the UK. Because that will be more empowering for people. We have heard | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
a lot of ideas, how many people like the idea of more devolution for city | :43:31. | :43:39. | |
regions or far the biggest cities, how many of you are sceptical of | :43:40. | :43:44. | |
giving more power to local areas? Slightly more enthusiasm. OK, | :43:45. | :43:50. | |
significantly more for devolution. Give me some of your requests? | :43:51. | :43:59. | |
I think that there is a lot that Stoke has to offer. Sometimes as | :44:00. | :44:06. | |
much as we can look to Westminster and politicians in the rest of the | :44:07. | :44:09. | |
country, what I've discovered having moved up here five years ago, is a | :44:10. | :44:16. | |
rich vein of cultural, wonderful, creative and dedicated people. We | :44:17. | :44:19. | |
saw that lady on the TV talking about the skills that she has. | :44:20. | :44:24. | |
Sometimes we've neglected it ourselves as people in | :44:25. | :44:26. | |
Stoke-on-Trent. We should be proud of what we have achieved, and we | :44:27. | :44:31. | |
should stand on the history, so that we can look beyond ourselves and see | :44:32. | :44:34. | |
what's possible. Certainly what I'm doing is... The gentleman at the | :44:35. | :44:44. | |
back. I was just thinking about higher education funding. I've got | :44:45. | :44:47. | |
four kids, they are all faced with tuition fees. If you look at | :44:48. | :44:52. | |
regional strategy, could we do something around reducing tuition | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
fees regionally, to attract people to local universities, and also look | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
at the science parks and facilities around the universities. Keele | :45:03. | :45:12. | |
University, we need to look at further investment at Staffordshire | :45:13. | :45:15. | |
University and the issue of tuition fees and how that is affecting young | :45:16. | :45:21. | |
people. The lady at the back? I would like to personally take | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
exception to what Hugo said. There are a lot of very bright people | :45:26. | :45:31. | |
here. We aren't stupid. I've got 2 degrees, there are people in our | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
area who are very, very clever. So please don't tarnish us with that | :45:36. | :45:48. | |
brush. Peter and Mark, did you use your satnavs to get here today? | :45:49. | :45:53. | |
Gareth is for the people and representing us. Debbie, please stop | :45:54. | :45:56. | |
apologising, you're doing a good job. Why did he call Brexit a pile | :45:57. | :46:04. | |
of... And basically he and many of his colleagues have been very clear | :46:05. | :46:10. | |
of talking about people being racist for boating Brexit, being stupid and | :46:11. | :46:16. | |
educated. He isn't here to answer that particular... Did you get here | :46:17. | :46:22. | |
by satnav or did you know where Stoke is? Of course I knew. I'm only | :46:23. | :46:30. | |
in London a few days a week because that is where Parliament is. The | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
idea we are all based in London... I think the important thing for the | :46:35. | :46:38. | |
choice tomorrow is, our candidate is someone who has always lived in | :46:39. | :46:41. | |
Stoke, he was born here, he's a Cabinet member... I want to stick to | :46:42. | :46:48. | |
the big issues, what we do for places like Stoke. Is Brexit | :46:49. | :46:53. | |
actually in practice going to provide, is that the silver bullet | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
that is going to help Stoke or is it going to get in the way? Well, | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
Brexit is going to be absolutely brilliant for the Midlands and the | :47:03. | :47:05. | |
north, for once people are looking at where we are sending our money. | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
We sending it all to the EU, are we sending it all abroad, are we | :47:11. | :47:15. | |
spending five times more, ten times more, no, where is the money going. | :47:16. | :47:19. | |
It is going to spark more engagement and people demanding the money is | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
spent in their areas. You really think Brexit is going to make | :47:25. | :47:30. | |
material improvement? It can do. I never argued that it's some kind of | :47:31. | :47:36. | |
magic solution on its own, self-government. But what I would | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
say is, if you look at the problems in a place like Stoke, membership of | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
the EU doesn't seem to have done it very much good in the last 30 years. | :47:46. | :47:50. | |
You can understand why people might want to try an alternative. I think | :47:51. | :47:57. | |
people are underestimating the people of Stoke. All the parties are | :47:58. | :48:03. | |
exploiting this. Even Labour have been using the St Georges flag, | :48:04. | :48:07. | |
playing to that sense of identity. I think voters are right to be cynical | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
because that isn't the answer to the problems. Politicians are tapping in | :48:12. | :48:14. | |
to what they think is the easiest way of getting votes without | :48:15. | :48:17. | |
offering solutions. Everyone says they want to be heard but the only | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
reason people are listening to people in Stoke today is because | :48:22. | :48:23. | |
there is a by-election. APPLAUSE I think there is a risk about | :48:24. | :48:36. | |
Brexit, and that is this particularly hard, destructive | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
Brexit, that Theresa May is charging towards. That could tank the | :48:41. | :48:45. | |
economy. If that happens, there won't be money for the NHS, there | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
won't be money for skills, there won't be money for infrastructure. I | :48:50. | :48:55. | |
think that is something that will not be helpful for the people of | :48:56. | :49:02. | |
Stoke. We are virtually out of time. People have said things about | :49:03. | :49:05. | |
labour, you wanted to come in, Debbie? The point that has been made | :49:06. | :49:11. | |
about the campaign, and so on, and it being this prism we are seeing | :49:12. | :49:16. | |
it, this needs to happen all year round. It's a new type of politics | :49:17. | :49:21. | |
we need, where we empower and engage our communities, it's absolutely | :49:22. | :49:24. | |
key. APPLAUSE Did we solve it? We've had a lot of | :49:25. | :49:30. | |
words and ideas. Did we find that silver bullet? I don't know. Stoke | :49:31. | :49:37. | |
Central by-election tomorrow has ten candidates and you get another | :49:38. | :49:42. | |
chance to see who they all are. More parties on the list than we could | :49:43. | :49:44. | |
represent here today. You can see a slate of all | :49:45. | :49:49. | |
the candidates standing We leave you with Staffordshire's | :49:50. | :49:51. | |
renowned poet, the late Let me thank our guests and those | :49:52. | :50:07. | |
who are local. Thank you very much indeed, to our lovely audience too. | :50:08. | :50:09. | |
APPLAUSE We leave you with Staffordshire's | :50:10. | :50:12. | |
renowned poet, the late Charles Tomlinson, and his | :50:13. | :50:14. | |
memories of Stoke-on-Trent, It was a language of | :50:15. | :50:15. | |
water, light and air I sought-to speak | :50:16. | :50:26. | |
myself free of a world Whose stoic lethargy | :50:27. | :50:28. | |
seemed the one reply To horizons and to streets | :50:29. | :50:29. | |
that blocked them back To tell of all that | :50:30. | :50:32. | |
seasoned and imprisoned: From a landscape of | :50:33. | :50:47. | |
disembowellings, underworlds Digging the marl, | :50:48. | :50:53. | |
they dug a second nature And water, seeping up | :50:54. | :51:01. | |
to fill their pits, Sheeted them to lakes | :51:02. | :51:04. | |
that wink and shine Between tips and steeples, | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
streets and waste In slow reclaimings, | :51:10. | :51:13. | |
shimmers, balancings, As if kindling Eden | :51:14. | :51:20. | |
rescinded its own loss And words and water came | :51:21. | :51:22. | |
of the same source. | :51:23. | :51:33. |