23/02/2017 Newsnight

I am never going to step down. You can't get rid of me!

Supreme Court Justice, American liberal hope,

An extraordinary rare interview with Ruth Bader Ginsberg

The true symbol of the United States is not the bald eagle.

And when the pendulum swings too far in one direction, it will come back.

As the polls close in two critical by-elections,

we're live at both counts with a political ear to the ground.

As the US Secretary of State meets his Mexican counterpart,

we're in the border town of Nogales, where they've had

No wall, no matter how beautiful or how big or how

expensive, is going to stop people that are desperate, people that are

And when you're sick of minding your language.

You are not free to express your opinion. Because you are racist, a

bigot or homophobic or depending on the topic, you are no longer allowed

to an opinion. Has the rise of political

correctness unleashed Good evening, any political storm

that is happening in Stoke right now has been overshadowed by Doris

on their doorstep. But as we come on air,

two critical by-elections The counting is just beginning

and it looks like a long night ahead Our political editor Nick Watt

is in Stoke and the BBC's political correspondent Tom Bateman

is in the Copeland constituency. They have both been reading the body

language as the polls close and the politicians come to the card. What

are you hearing so far? In normal times we would not pay much

attention to these Labour seats that have been in the party's hands for a

combined 149 years but these are not normal times and these by-elections

in Stoke and Copeland will give us some idea of how Jeremy Corbyn is

going down in a part Britain that is not really his natural territory.

Natural, strong Labour areas that voted in favour of leaving in the

referendum back in June. What did we learn? Do not make predictions

before the votes have been counted so I will take the safer course of

action of reporting on what the parties say. In Stoke, Labour say

they think they might squeak ahead of Ukip, two factors in their

favourite- Paul Nuttall, the leader of Ukip with those difficult

questions about his involvement in Hillsborough and the second, they

genuinely think they have been connecting to those voters who

supported Leave in the referendum. Ukip say, don't count us out, they

had a reasonable pace, second place in the General Election, 22.7% of

the vote but the problem was they said they had no idea where those

voters were so they got out there, shoe leather operation, they say

they know where those voters are, they had 500 volunteers on Saturday

and 300 today. Over in Copeland, Labour is more nervous, they say,

look at the mathematics, essentially a simple two-way contest between

Labour and the Tories and the Tories were just 2500 votes behind Labour

in the General Election in a contest in which the Tories were just 6.5

percentage points ahead of Labour. In some polls, the Conservatives are

13 percentage points in front of Labour so as Labour sources say, do

the maths! It is looking tricky for them. Tom is and Copeland. Are the

Tories accepted? -- excited. Ritchie bullish but cautious and where they

went to a couple of activists, my first question was, will you win?

They laughed and said, we will not make predictions but the mood is one

of confidence, fairly bullish. Adding to that history, you must go

back to 1935 to find the last time the Conservative was representing

this part of the world and this should be an area that in a time

like this when Labour is in opposition, they should be holding

very easily and yet they have fined over the years that lead crumbling

and they have found a pretty tough fight here. On the doorstep. With

Jeremy Corbyn's leadership a significant issue in a part of the

world which is so heavily dependent on the Sellafield nuclear plant and

10,000 nuclear jobs and also on plans for another 20,000 jobs at a

new plant. That has been a tough issue for Labour and has been

something of a bare-knuckle fight in this election campaign. The parties

have been trading blows over not just that but also concerns about

the downgrading of maternity services and other wards at the West

Cumberland Hospital here at Whitehaven and Labour have been

trying to make that the big issue and they have been less visible here

tonight. If we run through that scenario that has been suggested,

that Labour could hold Stoke but possibly lose Copeland, what would

you imagine is the effect on Jeremy Corbyn tomorrow? They say that the

best form of defence is attack and I am told that if Labour loses one of

these sets, tomorrow, supporters of Jeremy Corbyn are going to mount a

pretty serious offensive against his internal party critics. I have been

told they are preparing for what is described as a day of reckoning.

They will ask questions, they will say, is it not strange that these

by-elections were triggered by people who then got jobs who were

some of the strongest critics of Jeremy Corbyn and those supporters

are also going to say, how interesting it was that in the final

week of that by-election campaign, Tony Blair sought to try to overturn

the Brexit result, as one source said to me, to challenge the

carefully nuanced position of Labour on Brexit and they will say in the

final days, Peter Mandelson saying, he tries every day to work to

undermine Jeremy Corbyn. What that tells us is supporters of Jeremy

Corbyn fear that there might well be an attempt, another move against

Jeremy Corbyn if he fails in these by-elections or in one of them and

they want to nip this in the bud. Here I am in Stoke, Tom is and

Copeland, the ballots have just arrived, they are starting to count

and it is not until three ATM in Stoke when we will get results and

let us not make any predictions until those votes have been counted.

-- three o'clock in the morning. We will be back as we hear more.

Tonight, we bring you an extraordinarily rare

voice here on Newsnight, one of the eight serving members

Ruth Bader Ginsberg became just the second woman to be elected

At 83 years old, she has exploded into something of a pop icon

amongst young liberals, blistering in her dissent

The US Supreme Court is possibly the single most influential body

in deciding the direction of America's cultural and social

laws, more politically potent even than the president.

Tonight, Justice Ginsberg tells us of her fears for America now

and the parallels she draws with America's past.

To grasp anything of the American political system you must understand

the importance of the Supreme Court. This is where the most highly

disputed issues, slavery, segregation, gun rights and freedom

of speech, get debated and this ostensibly neutral body is perhaps

the most highly politicised in the land. The bench is usually made up

of nine justices on the bill is currently a vacancy following the

death last year of Anton Scully. Four liberals, four Conservative and

they hold those positions for my. With bigger Ginsberg was appointed

by President Clinton in 1993. A passionate advocate of women's

rights, she spent her early career with the American Civil Liberties

Union. Here to comment is liberal Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg. In

latter years she has become a cultural phenomenon. Her character

is portrayed in Saturday Night Live. Justice Ginsberg blasted Trump as a

figure who has a go. She shocked the establishment last year by breaking

convention that justices do not comment on current events by making

clear opposition to the then candidate, Trump, later apologising

for those remarks. I just want to say... I will get some relief from

death. She has a lifelong passion for opera and it was at the final

dress rehearsal of this one at the Kennedy centre in Washington, and

Opera are looking at the moral ambiguity of the death penalty in

America, that USENET's millilambert sat down with her for her first

interview since the victory of President Trump. -- that Newsnight

sat down with her. It was a great man who once said

that the true symbol of the United States is not the bald

eagle, it is the pendulum, and when the pendulum swings too

far in one direction, Some terrible things have happened

in the United States, but one can only hope that we learn

from those bad things. Think of when I grew up,

at the time of World War II. The irony was we were fighting

a war against racism, and yet by an executive order

of President Roosevelt, people who had done nothing wrong,

except they were of Japanese ancestry, were interned in camps

far from their homes. It took a long time

for the United States to realise But ultimately the President

acknowledged that there was no reason to intern people of Japanese

ancrestry, and Congress passed a bill providing compensation

for the people who were interned, But do you see echoes

in that kind of historical Well, I would say that we are not

experiencing the best of times. But there is hope in seeing how

the public is reacting to it. The Women's March, I've never seen

such a demonstration, both in numbers and the rapport

of the people in that crowd, there So yes, we're not experiencing

the best of times. But there is reason to hope

that we will see a better day. What is it about the current climate

that most concerns you? Our legislature, which is the first

branch of government, But I can think back to 1993,

the year that President Clinton nominated me for a vacancy

on the Supreme Court. I have spent ten years

of my life litigating gender I was one of four general counsel to

the American Civil Liberties Union. And yet the vote to

confirm me was 96-3. No-one raised a question

about my affiliation with the American Civil Liberties

Union. That kind of rapport

doesn't exist now. But my dream is that we

will get back to it. One day - I think it

will take strong people from both parties to say,

"Let's get together and work I mean, you mentioned

the legislature, but I'm thinking of you specifically as a judge

at this point - there's been a lot of outspoken criticism of both

individual judges and the judiciary as a whole, one being called

a "so-called judge". You know, as someone

who's served a lifetime in the courts, how do you feel

about the new administration's You are 83, you are the oldest

serving member on the Supreme Court. How do long you think

you can do this? At my age, you have

to take it year by year. I know I'm OK this year -

but what will be next year? I'm hopeful, however,

because my most senior colleagues, the one who most recently retired,

Justice John Paul Stevens, Since you made a Supreme Court

judge, how do you feel women's equality and women's

rights have changed? If you just look at the numbers,

when I became a Supreme Court Justice, there were six women

in the Senate, now there are 20. I was the second woman

on the Supreme Court, and when Justice O'Connor left,

I was all alone. Now I have two colleagues,

Justice Sonia Sotomayor People ask me, "When do think

there will be enough?" We've had nine men for most

of the country's history, and no-one thought that there

was anything wrong with that. I want to return to something that

we talked about at the beginning, that is to do with the sort

of erosion of facts and truth. It just feels like there's less

and less that one can be sure of, and I wonder, not just in the news,

but in all sorts of ways, I wonder if that is something that

strikes you, as you look around? What is important is

that we have a free press, Think of what the press has done

in the United States. That story might never have

come out if we didn't Do you feel that it may be

something that is forgotten? I read the Washington Post

and the New York Times every day, and I think the reporters are trying

to tell the public Ruth Bader Ginsburg, the Supreme

Court justice. US Secretary of State

Rex Tillerson met his Mexican

counterpart this evening. He was told of Mexico's

deep concerns over their The rallying cry on Trump's campaign

trail was, of course, that vow to build a wall to keep

Mexicans out. It's a vow that received

no shortage of criticism. But anyone thinking this

was something new would be wrong. There is already a wall

between the two countries, near the border town of Nogales,

which has existed since the 1990s. The US-Mexico border

stretches for 2000 miles, 700 of which already have

some sort of barrier. We don't know how many people

it has deterred, but getting round it

requires some skill. In Nogales, the first fence

went up in the '90s, The cartels, who control the drug

trade and the people smuggling, I'm joining a patrol

of the water tunnels that run under the border connecting Mexico

and the United States. We don't know who we might run into,

so the police go ahead of us. They use the cover of darkness

and wait for the right moment to head towards the US end

of the tunnel. So the policeman just told me that

after they turned on the flashlight, they saw someone, and this

person ran away. Minutes later, we catch a glimpse

of him in the distance. Sergio is pointing at

this person with a flashlight. Sergio believes it's better

to back up and alert the police we are heading toward

the entrance of the tunnel. The traffickers use not only

the subterranean infrastructure. more than 110 tunnels

built by Mexican cartels. and they make Nogales

the tunnel capital of the border. In this cemetery,

one of them hides in plain sight. This is the entrance of a tunnel

which was recently filled in. They used to carry drugs

to the other side of the border, and as you can see, the fence

is just about 100 metres from here. Tony Estrada has been

a sheriff for 25 years. He isn't sure the wall

President Trump wants to build If you do anything,

they'll go under it, they'll go over it,

they'll go around it. So it's a phenomenon that is

not going to stop, and no wall, no matter how beautiful,

how big or how expensive, is going to stop people

that are desperate people, that are needy,

and people that are poor. Estrada says the deportation raids

taking place in the US show that the authorities

are missing the point. Illegal immigration,

as far as I am concerned, pales, When you are spending all your

resources on illegal migration, and you're talking about relocate,

identifying people who are leaving the community, that have families

and are contributing, it's useless, it's not putting your resources

to the best. Criminal aliens, I've said it

for years, let's go after them, let's go after the criminal agents,

but don't bother anybody else. This shelter in Nogales

opened three decades ago. Since then, it has received hundreds

of thousands of migrants. We find hope and faith,

but also sadness and pain. Eusebia Ortiz

was deported a day ago. She tried to enter the US after

coming to Mexico to see her family. She has lived for 13 years

in Florida picking tomatoes. Despite the risky journey,

she's already planning to go back. If anyone is able to judge

the success of a war, This one says

it has reduced numbers. He was happy to appear on camera

but asked us not to name him. For him, a bigger wall could mean

fewer clients but more money. of the mixed and complex

nature of border towns, and of the unintended consequences

of building barriers. but others will find

another way round. I spoke to Vincente Fox,

former President of Mexico. I began by asking him whether,

for all his concern, about President Trump's border wall,

the reality is that these walls have contributed to reducing

Mexican immigration to the US? There is strong language

in this interview. it is that Mexixo is building

opportunities for its own people - in our part of Mexico, with full

employment right now. It is about 60% of

the population here. And it is because of

the capacity, the productivity, the quality

of Mexican workers. So, yes, the trend is reversing,

and this is something that I am sure it was spoken

about this morning in the meetings between

the Secretary of State, the Homeland Security

and the Mexican authorities. I think it was a great victory

for Mexico because these envoys of the Emperor Trump

to Mexico came with instructions to advise Mexico about deportations

and about the wall. And everything was rejected

by Mexican authorities. So, it is incredible,

this way of working of Senor Trump. He is speaking one

language and one message. He was very aggressive again

on saying that he will deport most every single Mexican

that is undocumented in the states. Number two, that he

will build the wall. But his two envoys here

spoke very soft language. Just to clarify, do you think

he will effect a military operation in terms

of deporting Mexicans? No, what I think he said was,

he said here, is that they were going to do it with full

respect to human rights. Although Trump keeps

talking differently. I am sure this is a great

defeat for Trump You say it is a great

defeat for Trump, but you know what he said,

he said he will be reviewing foreign aid to Mexico,

he suggested a levy of 20% tax on Mexican imports to pay

for the border wall. He is going to negotiate

trading partnerships. This does not sound

like victory for Mexico. That is another one of his

crazy, ignorant ideas. Because that border tax

has to have an allowance from the World Trade

Office, the WTO. If not, he cannot apply

it or he will have to

leave that organisation. And that means the United

States will have to cancel all trading with

the rest of the world. he will get the same

on the Mexican side. Don't forget that we import

as much as we export in the relationship between Mexico

and the United States. He has also said he will send

immigrants home through Mexico, even if it is not

their country of origin. He has a very strong response today

from our authorities, and I congratulate our

authorities that they stood firm. Not accepting any

of these crazy ideas. And let us see what his envoys

come back to tell him. Because Mexico is fighting,

and Mexico will not cede. You keep on talking about this

defeat but I am trying to work out, what can Mexico do in practical

terms, to hit back? If the wall is built

and your country is taxed, if trade negotiations do not go in your

favour, what can you actually do? First, we're not

playing for that wall. Number two, in trade, we have a lot

of leverage in negotiating Not only with Mexico

but the rest of the world. Number three, this

aggressive policies from Senor Trump are causing

in the state of California, 33% of the people

are ready to Calexit. Imagine California, the seventh

largest economy in the world, So he had better keep quiet,

he had better come down. He had better start

acting like President, he better start respecting everybody

else so that he can be respected. The former president of Mexico

speaking to us from Mexico. The true fickleness of football

success was exposed in all its glory this afternoon with the sacking

of the man who achieved the impossible just

a few short months ago. Remember when manager

Claudio Ranieri sealed the title for Leicester with a 1000-1 chance

and was hailed as a hero? Gary Linker called it

gutwrenchingly sad. Former Leicester Striker Tony Cottee

suggested the club had Jonathan Ashworth is the MP

for Leicester South. I understand you have

a little guy at home who's going to be very

unhappy when he wakes up. Well, it is a little girl, and I am

not sure she quite realises who he is, but she was very excited last

season when I took her to a first football game at the King Power

Stadium, and she certainly got into the spirit of things. We went to the

celebrations party in the local park where the bus, which we have just

seen, came with all the players. So she is going to be, she is going to

be pretty upset when she finds out that the guy who took Leicester to

this famous victory has been sacked, yeah. What does it tell you more

broadly, this acting? I think it is really sad, and it is not very

classy, really, is it? We know that we are not having a good season,

although we are still in Europe, and the game against Sevilla, we did get

a goal. I think we would like to have seen what happens with that

European campaign before this decision, but it was a tremendous

fairy tale, wasn't it, last season? The whole world was talking about

Leicester, no-one believed it could have happened. It gave the city a

tremendous buzz. I'm just wondering what kind of message this sends out

to young people, is this what happens when something great echoes,

you get fired when you cannot repeat the same thing? That is exactly

right, and it does feel like a panic move. It does not seem very classy,

the comments from Gary Lineker are absolutely right. Look, we all want

the club to stay, we don't want to see them relegated, but I think they

should have given him a chance, and if they have done this now, if they

get a new manager in and the club does get relegated, there would be

quite a lot of angry fans in Leicester. Let me just ask you

something, it nine months ago somebody told you Jeremy Corbyn was

still in his job and Ranieri was out of phase, what you would have made a

bit?! Two big by-elections tonight, what is your thoughts on the way

they will go? That is quite a mischievous statement! On the

by-elections, we will take not think for granted, we have to win them

both, I do not know what is going to happen, I have campaigned in both of

them, we all know the opinion polls have been difficult, but Labour has

to win in these places. Some suggestion from our political editor

that if Labour loses Copeland, the Corbyn strategists will try to blame

the Blairites for coming out in force over the last couple of weeks,

watched you make of that? Well, I didn't say that report. What I would

say is, well, let's see what the result is, but if we lose, we have

to ask ourselves some questions. I am the Shadow Health Secretary, it

is the responsibility of all of us in leading positions to reflect on

the results and work out what we are going to do to win people's trust

back in the future, if we do lose, I do not know what is going to happen.

It is the responsibility of every Labour MP and everybody in the

Shadow Cabinet to ask questions and wonder why we didn't win, and to

make sure we are putting forward practical policies which people want

and which will command support. Has an overdose of political

correctness ushered That's the subject -

or the thesis, perhaps - of a Channel 4 documentary tonight

by Trevor Phillips, former head of the Equality

and Human Rights Commission. At its heart it poses the question -

by controlling language on race, gender, disability etc,

are we changing the way people think or just supressing

what they continue to feel? And has the gagging of certain

phrases just unleashed an anger now emerging as this

new popular fervour? Before we discuss this,

here's a little taste of that It's from a Newsnight film six

months ago when Gabriel Gatehouse visited Youngstown in Ohio before

the US Presidential elections. You are not free to express

your opinion, you know? Because you are a racist,

you are a bigot, you are homophobic. Or, depending on whatever the topic

is, you are no longer Joining me now in the studio

is one of the founders of the Women's Equalities Party,

Catherine Meyer, who also has a new book out -

"Attack of the 50 Foot Women - How Gender Equality

Can Save the World". Thank you for joining us. Will you

take that on board? Liberals can be accused of shutting down debate with

that insistence on political correctness? Are very familiar

argument but in the time since I find it the women's equality party

and the time I have been writing this book I have been examined using

-- examining the mechanisms that created this situation and I can

tell you it is a very confused cause and effect. Political correctness is

not the reason we are where we are, it is what you mean by that. The

bundle of things called political correctness. It is about a very

divided world. When you heard those men in the film saying we are not

free to express our own opinions. They will not stop having those but

they feel they cannot use that language any more. Is that the right

or wrong direction? It is missing the point. What has happened is a

failure of mainstream politics. The reason that I came up with the idea

of the party is I had seen the way mainstream parties responded to Ukip

by contorting themselves into Ukip positions, why not do the same for

feminism? If we prove it is a vote winner, maybe the parties will make

themselves like that. I doing that, by the parties taking on the

colouration of the populace, they are not challenging it, they lose

authenticity and in the search for authenticity people often mistake

people spouting misogyny and racism for truth tellers whereas they are

actually misogynists and racist. Do you agree? There is no link between

the rise of political correctness and the rise of this populism? It is

more complicated than what people... People want a reason and because

people were so caught short by Brexit and President Trump and the

20 collection here, the results of the elections in Australia, where I

used to work, they want an explanation and they want a nice,

simple model causal explanation. Political correctness might be

apart, shutting people up is not a good thing, not for civil society,

it does not help... That idea of shutting people up, does not tally

with how you think about politically correct language working? There has

been a debate around no platforming, if that is what you are talking

about? And a certain policing of language. Some of that is valid only

in the sense that that language is, as I was talking about, offensive,

but I believe in free speech, I would rather not invite some of the

people who get invited but I would not give them no platform. It does

not mean the issues are not real. One that comes to mind because it

was shortly after I arrived in the UK from Australia, it was Julie

Bindel, who I disagree with on pretty much everything but is still

recognisable feminist having no platform and I thought, I'm sorry,

unless you have two head, I do not see in what universe she is the

wrong sort of feminist. Maybe students have always done this and

the only difference is non-students are listening to students? Do you

feel embarrassed by what the Liberals have done with the policing

of who is allowed to say what? No, I think, I agree with what Helen says

about the complexity. We also bring this world with the huge digital

presence that people have, this cacophony, and if you live with this

cacophony to shut out some of those noises, they make some sense, and

that is not the way to go but it is not to blame. It is crazy. You would

want to go back to the era where politically correct language was not

used and you had vile words to describe disabled or a gay people? I

get to swing the gay one here, I grew up in the 1980s when aids was a

thing when I was coming out and I grew up in a conservative state of

Queensland and my conservative Christian friends told me that this

was the plumber's friend of God! What was your response? I made the

decision then and I have stuck to it all of my life, if you cannot handle

nasty language then public life is not for you. Suck it up? That was a

decision I made them. And growing up in Queensland, the most socially

conservative state in Australia, they handle snakes and I had to

learn to deal with it! All three of us have learned to do with it but

that is not the way it should be. One of the things we're trying to do

with the party is open it up to a wider variety of people, more

diversity, and that means trying to create a culture in which people,

women, do not have to fear going out into the public eye and do not get

called names. But that is not the same as shying away from truth

telling. Great to have you both, we have run out of time.

Kirsty will have the by-election results tomorrow. Good night.

Kirsty will have the by-election results tomorrow. Good night.

Most of us had just about managed to weather the storm, quite a serious

one. A casualty, unfortunately. It is well and truly gone and we're

left with clear skies and a touch of frost in the morning and some icy

patches and a mix of weather is on the way on Friday, some rain