23/02/2017 Newsnight


23/02/2017

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis.


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Transcript


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I am never going to step down. You can't get rid of me!

:00:11.:00:15.

Supreme Court Justice, American liberal hope,

:00:16.:00:17.

An extraordinary rare interview with Ruth Bader Ginsberg

:00:18.:00:20.

The true symbol of the United States is not the bald eagle.

:00:21.:00:29.

And when the pendulum swings too far in one direction, it will come back.

:00:30.:00:38.

As the polls close in two critical by-elections,

:00:39.:00:41.

we're live at both counts with a political ear to the ground.

:00:42.:00:45.

As the US Secretary of State meets his Mexican counterpart,

:00:46.:00:48.

we're in the border town of Nogales, where they've had

:00:49.:00:50.

No wall, no matter how beautiful or how big or how

:00:51.:01:01.

expensive, is going to stop people that are desperate, people that are

:01:02.:01:04.

And when you're sick of minding your language.

:01:05.:01:14.

You are not free to express your opinion. Because you are racist, a

:01:15.:01:22.

bigot or homophobic or depending on the topic, you are no longer allowed

:01:23.:01:24.

to an opinion. Has the rise of political

:01:25.:01:27.

correctness unleashed Good evening, any political storm

:01:28.:01:28.

that is happening in Stoke right now has been overshadowed by Doris

:01:29.:01:39.

on their doorstep. But as we come on air,

:01:40.:01:42.

two critical by-elections The counting is just beginning

:01:43.:01:44.

and it looks like a long night ahead Our political editor Nick Watt

:01:45.:01:48.

is in Stoke and the BBC's political correspondent Tom Bateman

:01:49.:01:55.

is in the Copeland constituency. They have both been reading the body

:01:56.:02:06.

language as the polls close and the politicians come to the card. What

:02:07.:02:13.

are you hearing so far? In normal times we would not pay much

:02:14.:02:16.

attention to these Labour seats that have been in the party's hands for a

:02:17.:02:23.

combined 149 years but these are not normal times and these by-elections

:02:24.:02:28.

in Stoke and Copeland will give us some idea of how Jeremy Corbyn is

:02:29.:02:32.

going down in a part Britain that is not really his natural territory.

:02:33.:02:37.

Natural, strong Labour areas that voted in favour of leaving in the

:02:38.:02:41.

referendum back in June. What did we learn? Do not make predictions

:02:42.:02:46.

before the votes have been counted so I will take the safer course of

:02:47.:02:50.

action of reporting on what the parties say. In Stoke, Labour say

:02:51.:02:57.

they think they might squeak ahead of Ukip, two factors in their

:02:58.:03:01.

favourite- Paul Nuttall, the leader of Ukip with those difficult

:03:02.:03:04.

questions about his involvement in Hillsborough and the second, they

:03:05.:03:10.

genuinely think they have been connecting to those voters who

:03:11.:03:16.

supported Leave in the referendum. Ukip say, don't count us out, they

:03:17.:03:22.

had a reasonable pace, second place in the General Election, 22.7% of

:03:23.:03:26.

the vote but the problem was they said they had no idea where those

:03:27.:03:31.

voters were so they got out there, shoe leather operation, they say

:03:32.:03:35.

they know where those voters are, they had 500 volunteers on Saturday

:03:36.:03:43.

and 300 today. Over in Copeland, Labour is more nervous, they say,

:03:44.:03:49.

look at the mathematics, essentially a simple two-way contest between

:03:50.:03:53.

Labour and the Tories and the Tories were just 2500 votes behind Labour

:03:54.:03:58.

in the General Election in a contest in which the Tories were just 6.5

:03:59.:04:03.

percentage points ahead of Labour. In some polls, the Conservatives are

:04:04.:04:08.

13 percentage points in front of Labour so as Labour sources say, do

:04:09.:04:13.

the maths! It is looking tricky for them. Tom is and Copeland. Are the

:04:14.:04:24.

Tories accepted? -- excited. Ritchie bullish but cautious and where they

:04:25.:04:29.

went to a couple of activists, my first question was, will you win?

:04:30.:04:33.

They laughed and said, we will not make predictions but the mood is one

:04:34.:04:40.

of confidence, fairly bullish. Adding to that history, you must go

:04:41.:04:47.

back to 1935 to find the last time the Conservative was representing

:04:48.:04:50.

this part of the world and this should be an area that in a time

:04:51.:04:53.

like this when Labour is in opposition, they should be holding

:04:54.:04:57.

very easily and yet they have fined over the years that lead crumbling

:04:58.:05:01.

and they have found a pretty tough fight here. On the doorstep. With

:05:02.:05:06.

Jeremy Corbyn's leadership a significant issue in a part of the

:05:07.:05:10.

world which is so heavily dependent on the Sellafield nuclear plant and

:05:11.:05:15.

10,000 nuclear jobs and also on plans for another 20,000 jobs at a

:05:16.:05:20.

new plant. That has been a tough issue for Labour and has been

:05:21.:05:24.

something of a bare-knuckle fight in this election campaign. The parties

:05:25.:05:28.

have been trading blows over not just that but also concerns about

:05:29.:05:34.

the downgrading of maternity services and other wards at the West

:05:35.:05:38.

Cumberland Hospital here at Whitehaven and Labour have been

:05:39.:05:41.

trying to make that the big issue and they have been less visible here

:05:42.:05:47.

tonight. If we run through that scenario that has been suggested,

:05:48.:05:51.

that Labour could hold Stoke but possibly lose Copeland, what would

:05:52.:05:56.

you imagine is the effect on Jeremy Corbyn tomorrow? They say that the

:05:57.:06:02.

best form of defence is attack and I am told that if Labour loses one of

:06:03.:06:07.

these sets, tomorrow, supporters of Jeremy Corbyn are going to mount a

:06:08.:06:11.

pretty serious offensive against his internal party critics. I have been

:06:12.:06:15.

told they are preparing for what is described as a day of reckoning.

:06:16.:06:19.

They will ask questions, they will say, is it not strange that these

:06:20.:06:23.

by-elections were triggered by people who then got jobs who were

:06:24.:06:28.

some of the strongest critics of Jeremy Corbyn and those supporters

:06:29.:06:32.

are also going to say, how interesting it was that in the final

:06:33.:06:35.

week of that by-election campaign, Tony Blair sought to try to overturn

:06:36.:06:43.

the Brexit result, as one source said to me, to challenge the

:06:44.:06:46.

carefully nuanced position of Labour on Brexit and they will say in the

:06:47.:06:50.

final days, Peter Mandelson saying, he tries every day to work to

:06:51.:06:55.

undermine Jeremy Corbyn. What that tells us is supporters of Jeremy

:06:56.:07:01.

Corbyn fear that there might well be an attempt, another move against

:07:02.:07:05.

Jeremy Corbyn if he fails in these by-elections or in one of them and

:07:06.:07:11.

they want to nip this in the bud. Here I am in Stoke, Tom is and

:07:12.:07:16.

Copeland, the ballots have just arrived, they are starting to count

:07:17.:07:20.

and it is not until three ATM in Stoke when we will get results and

:07:21.:07:24.

let us not make any predictions until those votes have been counted.

:07:25.:07:29.

-- three o'clock in the morning. We will be back as we hear more.

:07:30.:07:32.

Tonight, we bring you an extraordinarily rare

:07:33.:07:33.

voice here on Newsnight, one of the eight serving members

:07:34.:07:36.

Ruth Bader Ginsberg became just the second woman to be elected

:07:37.:07:41.

At 83 years old, she has exploded into something of a pop icon

:07:42.:07:46.

amongst young liberals, blistering in her dissent

:07:47.:07:47.

The US Supreme Court is possibly the single most influential body

:07:48.:07:51.

in deciding the direction of America's cultural and social

:07:52.:07:56.

laws, more politically potent even than the president.

:07:57.:07:59.

Tonight, Justice Ginsberg tells us of her fears for America now

:08:00.:08:01.

and the parallels she draws with America's past.

:08:02.:08:13.

To grasp anything of the American political system you must understand

:08:14.:08:19.

the importance of the Supreme Court. This is where the most highly

:08:20.:08:24.

disputed issues, slavery, segregation, gun rights and freedom

:08:25.:08:27.

of speech, get debated and this ostensibly neutral body is perhaps

:08:28.:08:32.

the most highly politicised in the land. The bench is usually made up

:08:33.:08:38.

of nine justices on the bill is currently a vacancy following the

:08:39.:08:46.

death last year of Anton Scully. Four liberals, four Conservative and

:08:47.:08:49.

they hold those positions for my. With bigger Ginsberg was appointed

:08:50.:08:56.

by President Clinton in 1993. A passionate advocate of women's

:08:57.:08:59.

rights, she spent her early career with the American Civil Liberties

:09:00.:09:04.

Union. Here to comment is liberal Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg. In

:09:05.:09:09.

latter years she has become a cultural phenomenon. Her character

:09:10.:09:16.

is portrayed in Saturday Night Live. Justice Ginsberg blasted Trump as a

:09:17.:09:21.

figure who has a go. She shocked the establishment last year by breaking

:09:22.:09:25.

convention that justices do not comment on current events by making

:09:26.:09:31.

clear opposition to the then candidate, Trump, later apologising

:09:32.:09:34.

for those remarks. I just want to say... I will get some relief from

:09:35.:09:44.

death. She has a lifelong passion for opera and it was at the final

:09:45.:09:47.

dress rehearsal of this one at the Kennedy centre in Washington, and

:09:48.:09:52.

Opera are looking at the moral ambiguity of the death penalty in

:09:53.:09:56.

America, that USENET's millilambert sat down with her for her first

:09:57.:10:00.

interview since the victory of President Trump. -- that Newsnight

:10:01.:10:02.

sat down with her. It was a great man who once said

:10:03.:10:06.

that the true symbol of the United States is not the bald

:10:07.:10:15.

eagle, it is the pendulum, and when the pendulum swings too

:10:16.:10:21.

far in one direction, Some terrible things have happened

:10:22.:10:24.

in the United States, but one can only hope that we learn

:10:25.:10:37.

from those bad things. Think of when I grew up,

:10:38.:10:44.

at the time of World War II. The irony was we were fighting

:10:45.:10:51.

a war against racism, and yet by an executive order

:10:52.:10:55.

of President Roosevelt, people who had done nothing wrong,

:10:56.:11:01.

except they were of Japanese ancestry, were interned in camps

:11:02.:11:04.

far from their homes. It took a long time

:11:05.:11:12.

for the United States to realise But ultimately the President

:11:13.:11:17.

acknowledged that there was no reason to intern people of Japanese

:11:18.:11:28.

ancrestry, and Congress passed a bill providing compensation

:11:29.:11:33.

for the people who were interned, But do you see echoes

:11:34.:11:40.

in that kind of historical Well, I would say that we are not

:11:41.:11:47.

experiencing the best of times. But there is hope in seeing how

:11:48.:12:04.

the public is reacting to it. The Women's March, I've never seen

:12:05.:12:11.

such a demonstration, both in numbers and the rapport

:12:12.:12:17.

of the people in that crowd, there So yes, we're not experiencing

:12:18.:12:21.

the best of times. But there is reason to hope

:12:22.:12:38.

that we will see a better day. What is it about the current climate

:12:39.:12:42.

that most concerns you? Our legislature, which is the first

:12:43.:12:52.

branch of government, But I can think back to 1993,

:12:53.:12:57.

the year that President Clinton nominated me for a vacancy

:12:58.:13:08.

on the Supreme Court. I have spent ten years

:13:09.:13:16.

of my life litigating gender I was one of four general counsel to

:13:17.:13:19.

the American Civil Liberties Union. And yet the vote to

:13:20.:13:30.

confirm me was 96-3. No-one raised a question

:13:31.:13:34.

about my affiliation with the American Civil Liberties

:13:35.:13:38.

Union. That kind of rapport

:13:39.:13:41.

doesn't exist now. But my dream is that we

:13:42.:13:48.

will get back to it. One day - I think it

:13:49.:13:53.

will take strong people from both parties to say,

:13:54.:13:58.

"Let's get together and work I mean, you mentioned

:13:59.:14:02.

the legislature, but I'm thinking of you specifically as a judge

:14:03.:14:09.

at this point - there's been a lot of outspoken criticism of both

:14:10.:14:15.

individual judges and the judiciary as a whole, one being called

:14:16.:14:19.

a "so-called judge". You know, as someone

:14:20.:14:24.

who's served a lifetime in the courts, how do you feel

:14:25.:14:28.

about the new administration's You are 83, you are the oldest

:14:29.:14:33.

serving member on the Supreme Court. How do long you think

:14:34.:14:46.

you can do this? At my age, you have

:14:47.:14:58.

to take it year by year. I know I'm OK this year -

:14:59.:15:01.

but what will be next year? I'm hopeful, however,

:15:02.:15:04.

because my most senior colleagues, the one who most recently retired,

:15:05.:15:06.

Justice John Paul Stevens, Since you made a Supreme Court

:15:07.:15:08.

judge, how do you feel women's equality and women's

:15:09.:15:19.

rights have changed? If you just look at the numbers,

:15:20.:15:23.

when I became a Supreme Court Justice, there were six women

:15:24.:15:27.

in the Senate, now there are 20. I was the second woman

:15:28.:15:32.

on the Supreme Court, and when Justice O'Connor left,

:15:33.:15:35.

I was all alone. Now I have two colleagues,

:15:36.:15:39.

Justice Sonia Sotomayor People ask me, "When do think

:15:40.:15:43.

there will be enough?" We've had nine men for most

:15:44.:15:51.

of the country's history, and no-one thought that there

:15:52.:16:01.

was anything wrong with that. I want to return to something that

:16:02.:16:07.

we talked about at the beginning, that is to do with the sort

:16:08.:16:10.

of erosion of facts and truth. It just feels like there's less

:16:11.:16:21.

and less that one can be sure of, and I wonder, not just in the news,

:16:22.:16:26.

but in all sorts of ways, I wonder if that is something that

:16:27.:16:29.

strikes you, as you look around? What is important is

:16:30.:16:38.

that we have a free press, Think of what the press has done

:16:39.:16:42.

in the United States. That story might never have

:16:43.:16:50.

come out if we didn't Do you feel that it may be

:16:51.:16:56.

something that is forgotten? I read the Washington Post

:16:57.:17:07.

and the New York Times every day, and I think the reporters are trying

:17:08.:17:10.

to tell the public Ruth Bader Ginsburg, the Supreme

:17:11.:17:13.

Court justice. US Secretary of State

:17:14.:17:31.

Rex Tillerson met his Mexican

:17:32.:17:32.

counterpart this evening. He was told of Mexico's

:17:33.:17:35.

deep concerns over their The rallying cry on Trump's campaign

:17:36.:17:37.

trail was, of course, that vow to build a wall to keep

:17:38.:17:41.

Mexicans out. It's a vow that received

:17:42.:17:43.

no shortage of criticism. But anyone thinking this

:17:44.:17:46.

was something new would be wrong. There is already a wall

:17:47.:17:48.

between the two countries, near the border town of Nogales,

:17:49.:17:50.

which has existed since the 1990s. The US-Mexico border

:17:51.:17:53.

stretches for 2000 miles, 700 of which already have

:17:54.:18:06.

some sort of barrier. We don't know how many people

:18:07.:18:10.

it has deterred, but getting round it

:18:11.:18:13.

requires some skill. In Nogales, the first fence

:18:14.:18:17.

went up in the '90s, The cartels, who control the drug

:18:18.:18:19.

trade and the people smuggling, I'm joining a patrol

:18:20.:18:27.

of the water tunnels that run under the border connecting Mexico

:18:28.:18:37.

and the United States. We don't know who we might run into,

:18:38.:18:42.

so the police go ahead of us. They use the cover of darkness

:18:43.:18:47.

and wait for the right moment to head towards the US end

:18:48.:18:59.

of the tunnel. So the policeman just told me that

:19:00.:19:03.

after they turned on the flashlight, they saw someone, and this

:19:04.:19:06.

person ran away. Minutes later, we catch a glimpse

:19:07.:19:10.

of him in the distance. Sergio is pointing at

:19:11.:19:15.

this person with a flashlight. Sergio believes it's better

:19:16.:19:29.

to back up and alert the police we are heading toward

:19:30.:19:33.

the entrance of the tunnel. The traffickers use not only

:19:34.:19:57.

the subterranean infrastructure. more than 110 tunnels

:19:58.:20:01.

built by Mexican cartels. and they make Nogales

:20:02.:20:09.

the tunnel capital of the border. In this cemetery,

:20:10.:20:17.

one of them hides in plain sight. This is the entrance of a tunnel

:20:18.:20:21.

which was recently filled in. They used to carry drugs

:20:22.:20:26.

to the other side of the border, and as you can see, the fence

:20:27.:20:29.

is just about 100 metres from here. Tony Estrada has been

:20:30.:20:33.

a sheriff for 25 years. He isn't sure the wall

:20:34.:20:40.

President Trump wants to build If you do anything,

:20:41.:20:42.

they'll go under it, they'll go over it,

:20:43.:20:48.

they'll go around it. So it's a phenomenon that is

:20:49.:20:51.

not going to stop, and no wall, no matter how beautiful,

:20:52.:20:54.

how big or how expensive, is going to stop people

:20:55.:20:56.

that are desperate people, that are needy,

:20:57.:20:59.

and people that are poor. Estrada says the deportation raids

:21:00.:21:03.

taking place in the US show that the authorities

:21:04.:21:06.

are missing the point. Illegal immigration,

:21:07.:21:12.

as far as I am concerned, pales, When you are spending all your

:21:13.:21:14.

resources on illegal migration, and you're talking about relocate,

:21:15.:21:19.

identifying people who are leaving the community, that have families

:21:20.:21:22.

and are contributing, it's useless, it's not putting your resources

:21:23.:21:25.

to the best. Criminal aliens, I've said it

:21:26.:21:31.

for years, let's go after them, let's go after the criminal agents,

:21:32.:21:34.

but don't bother anybody else. This shelter in Nogales

:21:35.:21:36.

opened three decades ago. Since then, it has received hundreds

:21:37.:21:38.

of thousands of migrants. We find hope and faith,

:21:39.:21:44.

but also sadness and pain. Eusebia Ortiz

:21:45.:21:46.

was deported a day ago. She tried to enter the US after

:21:47.:21:54.

coming to Mexico to see her family. She has lived for 13 years

:21:55.:22:11.

in Florida picking tomatoes. Despite the risky journey,

:22:12.:22:16.

she's already planning to go back. If anyone is able to judge

:22:17.:22:39.

the success of a war, This one says

:22:40.:22:42.

it has reduced numbers. He was happy to appear on camera

:22:43.:22:48.

but asked us not to name him. For him, a bigger wall could mean

:22:49.:23:05.

fewer clients but more money. of the mixed and complex

:23:06.:23:29.

nature of border towns, and of the unintended consequences

:23:30.:23:34.

of building barriers. but others will find

:23:35.:23:38.

another way round. I spoke to Vincente Fox,

:23:39.:23:47.

former President of Mexico. I began by asking him whether,

:23:48.:23:52.

for all his concern, about President Trump's border wall,

:23:53.:23:54.

the reality is that these walls have contributed to reducing

:23:55.:23:57.

Mexican immigration to the US? There is strong language

:23:58.:24:02.

in this interview. it is that Mexixo is building

:24:03.:24:07.

opportunities for its own people - in our part of Mexico, with full

:24:08.:24:24.

employment right now. It is about 60% of

:24:25.:24:27.

the population here. And it is because of

:24:28.:24:28.

the capacity, the productivity, the quality

:24:29.:24:30.

of Mexican workers. So, yes, the trend is reversing,

:24:31.:24:34.

and this is something that I am sure it was spoken

:24:35.:24:38.

about this morning in the meetings between

:24:39.:24:40.

the Secretary of State, the Homeland Security

:24:41.:24:44.

and the Mexican authorities. I think it was a great victory

:24:45.:24:50.

for Mexico because these envoys of the Emperor Trump

:24:51.:24:55.

to Mexico came with instructions to advise Mexico about deportations

:24:56.:24:59.

and about the wall. And everything was rejected

:25:00.:25:04.

by Mexican authorities. So, it is incredible,

:25:05.:25:10.

this way of working of Senor Trump. He is speaking one

:25:11.:25:15.

language and one message. He was very aggressive again

:25:16.:25:22.

on saying that he will deport most every single Mexican

:25:23.:25:25.

that is undocumented in the states. Number two, that he

:25:26.:25:29.

will build the wall. But his two envoys here

:25:30.:25:33.

spoke very soft language. Just to clarify, do you think

:25:34.:25:38.

he will effect a military operation in terms

:25:39.:25:40.

of deporting Mexicans? No, what I think he said was,

:25:41.:25:45.

he said here, is that they were going to do it with full

:25:46.:25:52.

respect to human rights. Although Trump keeps

:25:53.:25:55.

talking differently. I am sure this is a great

:25:56.:26:01.

defeat for Trump You say it is a great

:26:02.:26:03.

defeat for Trump, but you know what he said,

:26:04.:26:12.

he said he will be reviewing foreign aid to Mexico,

:26:13.:26:18.

he suggested a levy of 20% tax on Mexican imports to pay

:26:19.:26:21.

for the border wall. He is going to negotiate

:26:22.:26:23.

trading partnerships. This does not sound

:26:24.:26:25.

like victory for Mexico. That is another one of his

:26:26.:26:28.

crazy, ignorant ideas. Because that border tax

:26:29.:26:30.

has to have an allowance from the World Trade

:26:31.:26:39.

Office, the WTO. If not, he cannot apply

:26:40.:26:53.

it or he will have to

:26:54.:26:54.

leave that organisation. And that means the United

:26:55.:26:56.

States will have to cancel all trading with

:26:57.:27:00.

the rest of the world. he will get the same

:27:01.:27:02.

on the Mexican side. Don't forget that we import

:27:03.:27:06.

as much as we export in the relationship between Mexico

:27:07.:27:09.

and the United States. He has also said he will send

:27:10.:27:13.

immigrants home through Mexico, even if it is not

:27:14.:27:16.

their country of origin. He has a very strong response today

:27:17.:27:18.

from our authorities, and I congratulate our

:27:19.:27:25.

authorities that they stood firm. Not accepting any

:27:26.:27:28.

of these crazy ideas. And let us see what his envoys

:27:29.:27:32.

come back to tell him. Because Mexico is fighting,

:27:33.:27:38.

and Mexico will not cede. You keep on talking about this

:27:39.:27:42.

defeat but I am trying to work out, what can Mexico do in practical

:27:43.:27:46.

terms, to hit back? If the wall is built

:27:47.:27:50.

and your country is taxed, if trade negotiations do not go in your

:27:51.:27:53.

favour, what can you actually do? First, we're not

:27:54.:27:57.

playing for that wall. Number two, in trade, we have a lot

:27:58.:28:03.

of leverage in negotiating Not only with Mexico

:28:04.:28:06.

but the rest of the world. Number three, this

:28:07.:28:19.

aggressive policies from Senor Trump are causing

:28:20.:28:24.

in the state of California, 33% of the people

:28:25.:28:27.

are ready to Calexit. Imagine California, the seventh

:28:28.:28:29.

largest economy in the world, So he had better keep quiet,

:28:30.:28:33.

he had better come down. He had better start

:28:34.:28:40.

acting like President, he better start respecting everybody

:28:41.:28:41.

else so that he can be respected. The former president of Mexico

:28:42.:28:48.

speaking to us from Mexico. The true fickleness of football

:28:49.:28:59.

success was exposed in all its glory this afternoon with the sacking

:29:00.:29:02.

of the man who achieved the impossible just

:29:03.:29:04.

a few short months ago. Remember when manager

:29:05.:29:06.

Claudio Ranieri sealed the title for Leicester with a 1000-1 chance

:29:07.:29:08.

and was hailed as a hero? Gary Linker called it

:29:09.:29:11.

gutwrenchingly sad. Former Leicester Striker Tony Cottee

:29:12.:29:17.

suggested the club had Jonathan Ashworth is the MP

:29:18.:29:19.

for Leicester South. I understand you have

:29:20.:29:24.

a little guy at home who's going to be very

:29:25.:29:27.

unhappy when he wakes up. Well, it is a little girl, and I am

:29:28.:29:40.

not sure she quite realises who he is, but she was very excited last

:29:41.:29:45.

season when I took her to a first football game at the King Power

:29:46.:29:49.

Stadium, and she certainly got into the spirit of things. We went to the

:29:50.:29:53.

celebrations party in the local park where the bus, which we have just

:29:54.:29:57.

seen, came with all the players. So she is going to be, she is going to

:29:58.:30:01.

be pretty upset when she finds out that the guy who took Leicester to

:30:02.:30:05.

this famous victory has been sacked, yeah. What does it tell you more

:30:06.:30:09.

broadly, this acting? I think it is really sad, and it is not very

:30:10.:30:15.

classy, really, is it? We know that we are not having a good season,

:30:16.:30:19.

although we are still in Europe, and the game against Sevilla, we did get

:30:20.:30:25.

a goal. I think we would like to have seen what happens with that

:30:26.:30:29.

European campaign before this decision, but it was a tremendous

:30:30.:30:34.

fairy tale, wasn't it, last season? The whole world was talking about

:30:35.:30:38.

Leicester, no-one believed it could have happened. It gave the city a

:30:39.:30:49.

tremendous buzz. I'm just wondering what kind of message this sends out

:30:50.:30:53.

to young people, is this what happens when something great echoes,

:30:54.:30:56.

you get fired when you cannot repeat the same thing? That is exactly

:30:57.:31:03.

right, and it does feel like a panic move. It does not seem very classy,

:31:04.:31:08.

the comments from Gary Lineker are absolutely right. Look, we all want

:31:09.:31:13.

the club to stay, we don't want to see them relegated, but I think they

:31:14.:31:16.

should have given him a chance, and if they have done this now, if they

:31:17.:31:20.

get a new manager in and the club does get relegated, there would be

:31:21.:31:23.

quite a lot of angry fans in Leicester. Let me just ask you

:31:24.:31:28.

something, it nine months ago somebody told you Jeremy Corbyn was

:31:29.:31:32.

still in his job and Ranieri was out of phase, what you would have made a

:31:33.:31:37.

bit?! Two big by-elections tonight, what is your thoughts on the way

:31:38.:31:46.

they will go? That is quite a mischievous statement! On the

:31:47.:31:49.

by-elections, we will take not think for granted, we have to win them

:31:50.:31:53.

both, I do not know what is going to happen, I have campaigned in both of

:31:54.:31:56.

them, we all know the opinion polls have been difficult, but Labour has

:31:57.:32:02.

to win in these places. Some suggestion from our political editor

:32:03.:32:07.

that if Labour loses Copeland, the Corbyn strategists will try to blame

:32:08.:32:10.

the Blairites for coming out in force over the last couple of weeks,

:32:11.:32:15.

watched you make of that? Well, I didn't say that report. What I would

:32:16.:32:20.

say is, well, let's see what the result is, but if we lose, we have

:32:21.:32:25.

to ask ourselves some questions. I am the Shadow Health Secretary, it

:32:26.:32:29.

is the responsibility of all of us in leading positions to reflect on

:32:30.:32:34.

the results and work out what we are going to do to win people's trust

:32:35.:32:39.

back in the future, if we do lose, I do not know what is going to happen.

:32:40.:32:43.

It is the responsibility of every Labour MP and everybody in the

:32:44.:32:47.

Shadow Cabinet to ask questions and wonder why we didn't win, and to

:32:48.:32:50.

make sure we are putting forward practical policies which people want

:32:51.:32:52.

and which will command support. Has an overdose of political

:32:53.:32:57.

correctness ushered That's the subject -

:32:58.:32:58.

or the thesis, perhaps - of a Channel 4 documentary tonight

:32:59.:33:02.

by Trevor Phillips, former head of the Equality

:33:03.:33:04.

and Human Rights Commission. At its heart it poses the question -

:33:05.:33:07.

by controlling language on race, gender, disability etc,

:33:08.:33:11.

are we changing the way people think or just supressing

:33:12.:33:13.

what they continue to feel? And has the gagging of certain

:33:14.:33:17.

phrases just unleashed an anger now emerging as this

:33:18.:33:20.

new popular fervour? Before we discuss this,

:33:21.:33:23.

here's a little taste of that It's from a Newsnight film six

:33:24.:33:25.

months ago when Gabriel Gatehouse visited Youngstown in Ohio before

:33:26.:33:29.

the US Presidential elections. You are not free to express

:33:30.:33:34.

your opinion, you know? Because you are a racist,

:33:35.:33:41.

you are a bigot, you are homophobic. Or, depending on whatever the topic

:33:42.:33:44.

is, you are no longer Joining me now in the studio

:33:45.:33:47.

is one of the founders of the Women's Equalities Party,

:33:48.:33:50.

Catherine Meyer, who also has a new book out -

:33:51.:33:53.

"Attack of the 50 Foot Women - How Gender Equality

:33:54.:33:56.

Can Save the World". Thank you for joining us. Will you

:33:57.:34:08.

take that on board? Liberals can be accused of shutting down debate with

:34:09.:34:11.

that insistence on political correctness? Are very familiar

:34:12.:34:17.

argument but in the time since I find it the women's equality party

:34:18.:34:21.

and the time I have been writing this book I have been examined using

:34:22.:34:26.

-- examining the mechanisms that created this situation and I can

:34:27.:34:31.

tell you it is a very confused cause and effect. Political correctness is

:34:32.:34:36.

not the reason we are where we are, it is what you mean by that. The

:34:37.:34:40.

bundle of things called political correctness. It is about a very

:34:41.:34:45.

divided world. When you heard those men in the film saying we are not

:34:46.:34:50.

free to express our own opinions. They will not stop having those but

:34:51.:34:54.

they feel they cannot use that language any more. Is that the right

:34:55.:34:58.

or wrong direction? It is missing the point. What has happened is a

:34:59.:35:03.

failure of mainstream politics. The reason that I came up with the idea

:35:04.:35:08.

of the party is I had seen the way mainstream parties responded to Ukip

:35:09.:35:13.

by contorting themselves into Ukip positions, why not do the same for

:35:14.:35:19.

feminism? If we prove it is a vote winner, maybe the parties will make

:35:20.:35:24.

themselves like that. I doing that, by the parties taking on the

:35:25.:35:31.

colouration of the populace, they are not challenging it, they lose

:35:32.:35:36.

authenticity and in the search for authenticity people often mistake

:35:37.:35:40.

people spouting misogyny and racism for truth tellers whereas they are

:35:41.:35:44.

actually misogynists and racist. Do you agree? There is no link between

:35:45.:35:49.

the rise of political correctness and the rise of this populism? It is

:35:50.:35:55.

more complicated than what people... People want a reason and because

:35:56.:36:01.

people were so caught short by Brexit and President Trump and the

:36:02.:36:07.

20 collection here, the results of the elections in Australia, where I

:36:08.:36:12.

used to work, they want an explanation and they want a nice,

:36:13.:36:19.

simple model causal explanation. Political correctness might be

:36:20.:36:22.

apart, shutting people up is not a good thing, not for civil society,

:36:23.:36:32.

it does not help... That idea of shutting people up, does not tally

:36:33.:36:36.

with how you think about politically correct language working? There has

:36:37.:36:43.

been a debate around no platforming, if that is what you are talking

:36:44.:36:47.

about? And a certain policing of language. Some of that is valid only

:36:48.:36:52.

in the sense that that language is, as I was talking about, offensive,

:36:53.:36:57.

but I believe in free speech, I would rather not invite some of the

:36:58.:37:01.

people who get invited but I would not give them no platform. It does

:37:02.:37:06.

not mean the issues are not real. One that comes to mind because it

:37:07.:37:11.

was shortly after I arrived in the UK from Australia, it was Julie

:37:12.:37:17.

Bindel, who I disagree with on pretty much everything but is still

:37:18.:37:23.

recognisable feminist having no platform and I thought, I'm sorry,

:37:24.:37:28.

unless you have two head, I do not see in what universe she is the

:37:29.:37:34.

wrong sort of feminist. Maybe students have always done this and

:37:35.:37:36.

the only difference is non-students are listening to students? Do you

:37:37.:37:43.

feel embarrassed by what the Liberals have done with the policing

:37:44.:37:51.

of who is allowed to say what? No, I think, I agree with what Helen says

:37:52.:37:56.

about the complexity. We also bring this world with the huge digital

:37:57.:38:05.

presence that people have, this cacophony, and if you live with this

:38:06.:38:10.

cacophony to shut out some of those noises, they make some sense, and

:38:11.:38:13.

that is not the way to go but it is not to blame. It is crazy. You would

:38:14.:38:21.

want to go back to the era where politically correct language was not

:38:22.:38:25.

used and you had vile words to describe disabled or a gay people? I

:38:26.:38:32.

get to swing the gay one here, I grew up in the 1980s when aids was a

:38:33.:38:36.

thing when I was coming out and I grew up in a conservative state of

:38:37.:38:41.

Queensland and my conservative Christian friends told me that this

:38:42.:38:49.

was the plumber's friend of God! What was your response? I made the

:38:50.:38:55.

decision then and I have stuck to it all of my life, if you cannot handle

:38:56.:39:02.

nasty language then public life is not for you. Suck it up? That was a

:39:03.:39:10.

decision I made them. And growing up in Queensland, the most socially

:39:11.:39:17.

conservative state in Australia, they handle snakes and I had to

:39:18.:39:22.

learn to deal with it! All three of us have learned to do with it but

:39:23.:39:26.

that is not the way it should be. One of the things we're trying to do

:39:27.:39:29.

with the party is open it up to a wider variety of people, more

:39:30.:39:33.

diversity, and that means trying to create a culture in which people,

:39:34.:39:40.

women, do not have to fear going out into the public eye and do not get

:39:41.:39:46.

called names. But that is not the same as shying away from truth

:39:47.:39:50.

telling. Great to have you both, we have run out of time.

:39:51.:39:51.

Kirsty will have the by-election results tomorrow. Good night.

:39:52.:40:02.

Kirsty will have the by-election results tomorrow. Good night.

:40:03.:40:09.

Most of us had just about managed to weather the storm, quite a serious

:40:10.:40:19.

one. A casualty, unfortunately. It is well and truly gone and we're

:40:20.:40:22.

left with clear skies and a touch of frost in the morning and some icy

:40:23.:40:27.

patches and a mix of weather is on the way on Friday, some rain

:40:28.:40:28.

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