10/03/2017 Newsnight


10/03/2017

With Emily Maitlis. An investigation into Burmese human rights violations. Plus the woman who sought out and forgave her rapist and is Pope Francis facing a Vatican mutiny?


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Tonight - crimes against humanity in Burma.

:00:00.:00:08.

Our own investigation reveals shocking human rights abuse

:00:09.:00:10.

Committed by the Burmese army against the Rohingya?

:00:11.:00:19.

By the Burmese, by the Myanmar military

:00:20.:00:23.

border guard or the police and the security forces.

:00:24.:00:28.

How could this go unstopped in a country which now

:00:29.:00:30.

has Aung San Suu Chi - winner of a Nobel Peace Prize -

:00:31.:00:33.

Can I ask you a question please? The United Nations has accused this

:00:34.:00:39.

country of committing crimes against humanity. Do you have any response

:00:40.:00:42.

Pope Francis says he's open to married men joining

:00:43.:00:46.

the Catholic priesthood, but is the man exploring for such

:00:47.:00:48.

radical answers to the Church's dilemmas facing a mutiny from deep

:00:49.:00:51.

And - when she was 16 years old, this woman was raped

:00:52.:00:57.

We'll discuss their unique and painful journey from violence

:00:58.:01:02.

Tonight we begin with extraordinary revelations about human

:01:03.:01:17.

Last year, after decades spent under house arrest,

:01:18.:01:22.

the Nobel Peace Prize winner, Aung San Suu Kyi, won

:01:23.:01:24.

an historic election victory to international acclaim.

:01:25.:01:27.

She still shares power with the Burmese military -

:01:28.:01:29.

which ruled the country for decades - in what is a very uneasy alliance.

:01:30.:01:32.

Tonight, however, Newsnight and Our World's joint investigation

:01:33.:01:34.

can reveal the extent of the appalling treatment

:01:35.:01:36.

of the minority Rohinga Muslim community and what seems to be

:01:37.:01:39.

the lack of effort to prevent what the United Nations is calling

:01:40.:01:42.

Jonah Fisher has this report - which contains

:01:43.:01:45.

For the last five months, we've been receiving graphic

:01:46.:02:07.

video from a part of Myanmar that is closed to the outside world.

:02:08.:02:11.

The Burmese government wants to keep what's happening secret.

:02:12.:02:28.

Myanmar's democracy icon turned leader?

:02:29.:02:36.

The United Nations has accused the country of committing crimes against

:02:37.:02:41.

humanity, do you have any response to that?

:02:42.:02:48.

November 2016, thousands of Myanmar's Rohingya Muslim

:02:49.:02:50.

Heading towards the border with Bangladesh.

:02:51.:02:53.

They are fleeing a conflict that fled again when this group

:02:54.:02:55.

of Rohingya militants attacked police checkpoints,

:02:56.:02:59.

killing nine officers, and seizing guns and ammunition.

:03:00.:03:05.

The Burmese response was to close the area,

:03:06.:03:07.

and the army began what it called clearance operations.

:03:08.:03:10.

Civilians as well as militants have been targeted.

:03:11.:03:16.

Unable to reach the conflict area in Myanmar, we have come

:03:17.:03:20.

next door to Bangladesh, to try and work out

:03:21.:03:23.

There are now more than 70,000 Rohingya sheltering in makeshift

:03:24.:03:30.

They have been called the world's most unwanted people.

:03:31.:03:38.

Back in Myanmar, they are the lowest of the low, denied citizenship

:03:39.:03:41.

and widely seen as illegal immigrants, who belong

:03:42.:03:45.

He says he left his village in November, when it was attacked

:03:46.:03:53.

by Burmese soldiers, but his elderly father

:03:54.:03:54.

of helicopters overhead, burning homes and large

:03:55.:04:37.

All our smartphone footage has been given to us by a group that has been

:04:38.:04:45.

meticulously documenting events and verifying video.

:04:46.:04:49.

The Government accepts that at least 25 people died here,

:04:50.:04:52.

but have claimed the Rohingya have been torching their own

:04:53.:04:55.

A year ago, Burmese history had seemed set on a very different path.

:04:56.:05:09.

Released from house arrest national heroine Aung San Suu Kyi had secured

:05:10.:05:12.

Overnight, decades of brutal military rule came to

:05:13.:05:15.

But her freedom and power have their hims. The Burmese generals have

:05:16.:05:29.

refused to hand over control of key ministries and the security forces.

:05:30.:05:33.

Since October, the United Nations and human rights groups have

:05:34.:05:36.

reported hundreds of cases of murder, rain and abduction

:05:37.:05:38.

Under international pressure to do something, Aung San Suu Kyi set up

:05:39.:05:51.

an investigation team, there are no Rohingya on it

:05:52.:05:53.

and it's led by this man, the Vice President

:05:54.:05:55.

Its methodology and treatment of victims have been criticised

:05:56.:06:01.

Take this encounter between a Rohingya woman and one

:06:02.:06:09.

a group of women being forced into the bushes but soldiers.

:06:10.:06:15.

The office has dismissed much of the testimony from the Rohingya

:06:16.:06:18.

as fake and this was broadcast on state TV as proof

:06:19.:06:22.

We tracked down the woman to a refugee camp in Bangladesh.

:06:23.:06:49.

She told us that she had spoken to the investigators

:06:50.:06:51.

after being promised she would face no reprisals.

:06:52.:07:19.

She told us she was still recovering from what the soldiers did

:07:20.:07:22.

Blocked, just like us from the conflict area in Myanmar,

:07:23.:07:42.

human rights experts have also been speaking to the refugees.

:07:43.:07:46.

At the airport, a United Nations envoy told me she was shocked

:07:47.:07:49.

Definite crimes against humanity. Committed by the Burmese army? By

:07:50.:08:07.

the border guards or the police or the security forces. Crimes against

:08:08.:08:14.

humanity is obviously very serious, how much responsibility should

:08:15.:08:17.

Myanmar's leader, Aung San Suu Kyi, bear for this? At the end of the

:08:18.:08:23.

day, it is the Government, the civilian Government that has to

:08:24.:08:31.

answer and respond to these massive cases of horrific torture, and very

:08:32.:08:36.

inhuman crimes, they have committed against their own people.

:08:37.:08:47.

The area where these crimes took place is remote,

:08:48.:08:49.

But we can fly to the biggest city in Rakhine state, Sittwe.

:08:50.:08:53.

With Buddhists and Rohingya Muslims living side by side.

:08:54.:09:00.

When violence erupted in 2012, Rohingya were forced

:09:01.:09:02.

Now, the once busy central mosque lies abandoned.

:09:03.:09:14.

On the streets and in the tea shops it is hard to find anyone with much

:09:15.:09:18.

sympathy for their departed Rohingya neighbours.

:09:19.:09:23.

Most Burmese see them as illegal immigrants.

:09:24.:09:31.

Could you see a day when the Rohingya will come back here and

:09:32.:09:46.

they will live side by side? What is the solution to the problems here?

:09:47.:09:56.

Checkpoints mark the entrance to a Muslim ghetto, this

:09:57.:10:07.

It is an island in Sittwe surrounded on all sides by Buddhist homes,

:10:08.:10:19.

the fence and the police keep the two communities apart.

:10:20.:10:26.

At the entrance women by a Rohingya community leader.

:10:27.:10:30.

Are the secret police always inside the camp? Really? Many what would

:10:31.:11:12.

happen if you went out that gate? Beaten by who?

:11:13.:11:26.

Every other day there's a list given to the police, and then those people

:11:27.:11:34.

are on the list, are allowed to leave and there is an escort

:11:35.:11:40.

organised, by the police, to protect the Rohingya when they go out they

:11:41.:11:46.

don't get attacked. With go to midday prayers.

:11:47.:11:50.

There have been Muslims living in Rakhine state for centuries.

:11:51.:12:01.

This mosque dates back almost 140 years.

:12:02.:12:16.

When Sittwe burned five years ago they were among those who stood

:12:17.:12:24.

their ground and refused to leave. Were you expecting Aung San Suu Kyi

:12:25.:12:42.

to be more sympathetic to the plight of the Rohingya?

:12:43.:13:08.

Its union day and in the town the crowds are gathering for a rare

:13:09.:13:16.

chance to see Aung San Suu Kyi. This event is something of a sham,

:13:17.:13:21.

it is celebrating Myanmar's ethnic diversity but the country has in

:13:22.:13:26.

fact seen decades of war between the army and rebel groups from ethnic

:13:27.:13:36.

minorities. As the event gets under way, Aung

:13:37.:13:41.

San Suu Kyi sits silently with the general, she knows she needs their

:13:42.:13:44.

support if she is to deliver her biggest policy goal.

:13:45.:13:49.

A nationwide peace agreement with all the ethnic minorities, apart

:13:50.:13:50.

from the Rohingya. Since she came to power, all our

:13:51.:14:12.

requests to speak with Aung San Suu Kyi have been rejected.

:14:13.:14:18.

BBC, can I just ask you a question? The UN has accused the country of

:14:19.:14:22.

committing crimes against humanity. Do you have any response to that?

:14:23.:14:32.

She doesn't like people putting difficult questions to her. With

:14:33.:14:39.

Aung San Suu Kyi unwilling to talk to us, we arrange to meet one of her

:14:40.:14:45.

oldest political allies. He is the spokesman for the National

:14:46.:14:49.

League nor democracy, Aung San Suu Kyi's party. I asked why she isn't

:14:50.:14:54.

speaking out. Out. Not because she doesn't care.

:14:55.:15:01.

So you think the criticism which has been levelled against Aung San Suu

:15:02.:15:09.

Kyi, particularly over the treatment of the Rohingya in Rakhine state,

:15:10.:15:11.

you think that is unfair. It is a serious problem, the UN has

:15:12.:15:29.

said maybe crimes against humanity are taking place.

:15:30.:15:36.

The most Burmese life in the last few years has certainly changed for

:15:37.:15:41.

the better. But the Rohingya are still waiting

:15:42.:15:44.

and their hopes are fading. So far, the price of power for Aung

:15:45.:15:51.

San Suu Kyi has been silence, on the principles, and values that she once

:15:52.:15:53.

principles, and values that she once held so dear.

:15:54.:15:56.

And you can watch the extended version of that Newsnight-Our World

:15:57.:16:00.

documentary, "Freedom and Fear in Myanmar", this Saturday

:16:01.:16:02.

and Sunday on the News Channel and on the iPlayer.

:16:03.:16:06.

Pope Francis told the German newspaper Die Zeit today

:16:07.:16:08.

that he is open to married men becoming priests, to combat

:16:09.:16:11.

the dwindling numbers entering the priesthood

:16:12.:16:13.

It's the latest exhortation from a leader who's shown himself

:16:14.:16:19.

unafraid of revolutionary change and the controversy it brings.

:16:20.:16:23.

Many Christians welcome his openness, and his willingness

:16:24.:16:26.

to explore new solutions to old problems.

:16:27.:16:30.

But within the Vatican establishment there is something akin

:16:31.:16:32.

Next week will mark the fourth anniversary

:16:33.:16:39.

His Papacy injected fresh impetus to a modernisation agenda which has

:16:40.:16:44.

electrified liberal Catholics but alarmed conservatives.

:16:45.:16:51.

Recently, the rumblings of discontent from the traditionalist

:16:52.:16:54.

Francis wants to give communion to some divorcees

:16:55.:16:59.

His opponents say this undermines the Church's teaching on the family.

:17:00.:17:04.

In November, a letter to the Pope from four conservative

:17:05.:17:09.

It expressed their doubts and concerns and challenged

:17:10.:17:16.

the Pope's authority by asking him to clarify his teachings.

:17:17.:17:21.

Last month, anonymous posters criticising Francis appeared

:17:22.:17:25.

across Rome and a spoof front page of the Vatican newspaper mocking

:17:26.:17:29.

the Pontiff was sent to the city's cardinals.

:17:30.:17:34.

Opposition from the church's conservative wing might be more

:17:35.:17:36.

of the same for the Pope but Vatican watchers are speculating that

:17:37.:17:40.

a group of moderate cardinals once loyal to Francis are so concerned

:17:41.:17:43.

by the growing schism, there may be soft murmurings

:17:44.:17:45.

The Vatican's powerful Secretary of State, Cardinal Pietro Parolin,

:17:46.:17:54.

He is a veteran diplomat, seen as a safe pair of hands who might

:17:55.:18:03.

A big problem for prospective mutineers, there is no obvious way

:18:04.:18:08.

in canon law to force a Pope out of office.

:18:09.:18:10.

And with Francis' sky-high popularity amongst lay Catholics,

:18:11.:18:15.

it's unclear whether so-called moral suasion alone could

:18:16.:18:20.

realistically lead to another ex-Pope in the Vatican.

:18:21.:18:28.

Joseph Shaw chairs the Latin Mass Society of England and Wales,

:18:29.:18:30.

and has publicly thrown his weight behind the concerned cardinals.

:18:31.:18:37.

Thank you for joining us. There are Catholics and non-Catholics who

:18:38.:18:45.

believe this Pope is one of the best adverts for religion the world has

:18:46.:18:49.

seen for decades. What are your concerns? My concerns and the

:18:50.:18:56.

concerns of many people is the things he has been saying, they have

:18:57.:19:01.

been interpreted in different ways in different parts of the world and

:19:02.:19:06.

different ways by bishops handing down guidelines for priests. This

:19:07.:19:12.

means that ordinary lay people and priests do not really know what they

:19:13.:19:15.

are supposed to be doing and the job of the Pope is to confirm his

:19:16.:19:22.

brethren in the faith so he is not doing what we would expect him to

:19:23.:19:26.

do, which is to explain to us what the teaching of the church 's. Is it

:19:27.:19:32.

just that he lacks clarity or is this the controversy of some of the

:19:33.:19:35.

things he is suggesting, for example his move today to welcome married

:19:36.:19:39.

men into the priesthood? That sort of thing is much more of the sort of

:19:40.:19:45.

thing that we would expect to be able to handle, those proposals,

:19:46.:19:51.

they might be good or bad and arguments to be made but this is a

:19:52.:19:56.

Prudential situation, a matter of judgment whether that is a good idea

:19:57.:19:59.

and I personally do not think that is a great idea but there is not any

:20:00.:20:06.

theological objection to that... Let me ask you, if the Pope teaches it,

:20:07.:20:11.

does that become the teaching of the church? Do you take that as they

:20:12.:20:16.

handed down judgment from the man you have elected? It is not as

:20:17.:20:23.

simple as that, they Pope can teach things as a private person and you

:20:24.:20:27.

do not have to agree. Pope John Paul II said things about the death

:20:28.:20:32.

penalty, he made it clear that was not the teaching of the church, the

:20:33.:20:37.

teaching of the church in catechism says one thing and what he said in

:20:38.:20:43.

other documents is somewhat different and those are not imposed

:20:44.:20:46.

upon us as Catholics as a matter of belief. Let me try to understand,

:20:47.:20:52.

you have talked about confusion and concern, how much genuine anger is

:20:53.:20:59.

there and is that enough to ferment these rumblings of the need for

:21:00.:21:04.

change? We're talking about different groups of people, on the

:21:05.:21:08.

one hand there are priests at the coal face, unsure of what the church

:21:09.:21:13.

is asking them to do and they are besieged from people from both sides

:21:14.:21:18.

putting pressure on them to do things they are not comfortable with

:21:19.:21:21.

and that is a difficult position for them to be in. On the other hand,

:21:22.:21:26.

you have cardinals in the Vatican and maybe they have heard about this

:21:27.:21:31.

problem but really they are in a very different position, if they are

:21:32.:21:34.

concerned about the Pope, they are concerned about this schism, which

:21:35.:21:41.

means parts of the church stopping to recognise other parts of the

:21:42.:21:46.

church. That is something which is not inconceivable, unfortunately,

:21:47.:21:52.

under German church and other areas of the world, they seem to be going

:21:53.:21:58.

in a very steadfast direction whereas the Polish are not going in

:21:59.:22:02.

that direction. If they stop talking to each other and stop recognising

:22:03.:22:07.

each other as part of the church, that would be a formal schism. Thank

:22:08.:22:09.

you very much for joining us. A warning that survivors of sexual

:22:10.:22:18.

violence might find the next report disturbing.

:22:19.:22:20.

When she was 16, Thordis Elva was raped by a man she knew -

:22:21.:22:23.

the man she had at that point considered to be her

:22:24.:22:26.

The ordeal was two hours long, and brutal.

:22:27.:22:29.

It left her physically damaged in the short term

:22:30.:22:31.

Her story is - worryingly - not that unusual.

:22:32.:22:34.

In nine out of 10 cases of sexual assault, the perpetrator

:22:35.:22:37.

In a majority of cases, it is a partner or ex-partner.

:22:38.:22:41.

What is unusual, though, is what happened next.

:22:42.:22:43.

She got back in touch with her rapist eight years later,

:22:44.:22:46.

and began an exchange of emails with him to understand what had

:22:47.:22:48.

motivated the violence and what effect it had had

:22:49.:22:51.

Eventually, they decided to come face-to-face.

:22:52.:22:55.

She travelled from Iceland, her home, he from Australia,

:22:56.:22:58.

and they met in Cape Town, where they spent a week together.

:22:59.:23:03.

They wrote a book to chart what they learned, called

:23:04.:23:05.

There are both with me, thank you for coming here. Why did you get

:23:06.:23:17.

back in touch after something so excruciatingly painful. It was

:23:18.:23:23.

something I had to do. The first thing I did was try to shut down my

:23:24.:23:30.

pain, I did not recognise what had happened to me for what it was, I

:23:31.:23:35.

had this misconception as a 16-year-old that rape was something

:23:36.:23:40.

that happened when a knife wielding lunatic would jump out of the bush

:23:41.:23:43.

and attack you because I was under these impressions from the media,

:23:44.:23:48.

which over report on those crimes when in actuality, as you say, it is

:23:49.:23:54.

so often somebody you know. I tried to shut down this pain and I became

:23:55.:24:02.

very effective overachiever, telling my schedule because standing still

:24:03.:24:06.

offered too much reflection on the past, which was too painful. Despite

:24:07.:24:11.

me projecting this successful image to the outside I was very much

:24:12.:24:14.

hurting in private and I was numbing my pain with alcohol, self harm,

:24:15.:24:19.

eating disorders and they hit rock bottom at the age of 25 and had long

:24:20.:24:24.

given up the hope of legal justice because it did not press charges

:24:25.:24:28.

right away and my perpetrator moved to the other side of the planet so I

:24:29.:24:35.

needed, nonetheless, for him to take responsibility for his actions. And

:24:36.:24:39.

you made that move? Yes, I did not have high hopes but I needed to do

:24:40.:24:46.

that for me. Tom, you responded to her e-mail straightaway with an

:24:47.:24:51.

apology. Did you see yourself as a rapist? Do you call yourself that?

:24:52.:24:57.

There is an internal recognition absolutely that no -- that what I

:24:58.:25:02.

did was nothing other than rape, it has been a long process of

:25:03.:25:06.

understanding the gravity of my actions and the damage I have caused

:25:07.:25:11.

but as much as I have come to understand, there was a sense of

:25:12.:25:18.

entitlement and undeserving nature where I sanctioned my own needs over

:25:19.:25:23.

the top of any understanding or for the well-being of Thordis. When you

:25:24.:25:27.

read Thordis, you are talking about the moment she was barely conscious.

:25:28.:25:36.

-- raped. What made you do that? I made no intent, there was no

:25:37.:25:42.

maliciousness in trying to re-inhabit my 18-year-old self and

:25:43.:25:47.

from what I find, there was an attitude, when a Boeing goes out

:25:48.:25:51.

partying with his girlfriend that he is entitled to sex. -- when a boy.

:25:52.:25:57.

And I took that attitude to a very dark place. Being involved in this,

:25:58.:26:04.

I understand this is a pervasive issue happening behind closed doors

:26:05.:26:09.

and I would like to be not complicit in the continuation of that. Because

:26:10.:26:13.

you were the one that reached out to Tom through e-mail and the idea that

:26:14.:26:22.

you are a victim, an e-mail from the perpetrator might arrive in your

:26:23.:26:26.

inbox. If it happened the other way around, what would your reaction

:26:27.:26:31.

have been? I do not know, that is not how things unfolded. To make

:26:32.:26:35.

things clear, we're not putting this form as a formula and people should

:26:36.:26:40.

be contacting each other whatsoever, that is not what we suggest, we're

:26:41.:26:45.

just offering our story in the hope that this will do a number of

:26:46.:26:51.

things. To shift the focus from the survivor, whose behaviour has long

:26:52.:26:55.

been subject to scrutiny, which contributes to this victim blaming

:26:56.:27:01.

culture, and shift that focus on to the perpetrator, were the

:27:02.:27:03.

responsibility lies. And we are hoping to dismantle the monster

:27:04.:27:11.

myth, that it is this unknown armed assailant, because the monster myth

:27:12.:27:17.

hurts the survivors, it makes it less likely that they will be

:27:18.:27:20.

believed when they come forth with their stories if the perpetrator

:27:21.:27:25.

does not conform to that misconception. Which very few

:27:26.:27:31.

actually do. Those are the hopes in what this could potentially achieve,

:27:32.:27:35.

this conversation we offer. You call this a conversation, the offering of

:27:36.:27:40.

the story, people watching this will just say, you should be in jail, you

:27:41.:27:45.

should not be getting publicity or any reward, monetary or otherwise,

:27:46.:27:51.

from this and you should not be encouraging this sanitisation of the

:27:52.:27:58.

crime? Yes, and I say, we live in a world where sexual violence is

:27:59.:28:01.

normalised and dismissed as locker room talk, where it is not only a

:28:02.:28:08.

pervasive problem, victim blaming is also very visible in all of this and

:28:09.:28:12.

those are things that I want to challenge because if a perpetrator

:28:13.:28:18.

steps forth and acknowledges not only the hurt he has caused but

:28:19.:28:21.

undermines the need for responsibility to be taken so much

:28:22.:28:26.

more often, it should be taken in every case, but in my mind that is

:28:27.:28:31.

not normalisation, that is the antidote to normalisation, it hurts

:28:32.:28:36.

and we need to make this stop. You are prepared to go through life

:28:37.:28:42.

talking to people and saying, I have raped, I need forgiveness, that is

:28:43.:28:46.

what you have carved out for yourself? Yes, this is a case that I

:28:47.:28:53.

recognise that I am being offered some reputable platforms being here

:28:54.:29:03.

tonight and they do not seek to increase my bank balance, any

:29:04.:29:06.

proceeds from this book will be going to charity, I will not profit

:29:07.:29:10.

in any way. I'm not seeking to ask for forgiveness or any kind of light

:29:11.:29:15.

from the public perception of this story. I have already been involved

:29:16.:29:21.

in conversations with men and I have seen an investment in wanting to

:29:22.:29:24.

discuss this and that there is a background position for me to

:29:25.:29:28.

continue to be involved in those discussions, I cannot expect that

:29:29.:29:31.

but if that is available I will certainly be invested in those rooms

:29:32.:29:38.

and discussions. One question that comes... The women's Festival

:29:39.:29:41.

decided to move your tour, they thought it was not a suitable

:29:42.:29:44.

platform to have you there. Why would you approach women's festivals

:29:45.:29:51.

and groups when you want to be talking to men's clubs, going around

:29:52.:29:54.

Australia and having this conversation? Are you doing that? In

:29:55.:30:00.

the future, to be honest, I'm not sure. One of the things that came

:30:01.:30:06.

from this, when it was released, the way it is framed is a women's issue

:30:07.:30:11.

and I have no right to demand much in this but this is a case of, I am

:30:12.:30:17.

pleased we still have a chance to speak outside of the festival, I am

:30:18.:30:23.

grateful for that and the fact we still get to speak to a London

:30:24.:30:27.

audience. We have explained that you want to remove the myth of the

:30:28.:30:34.

monster with the knife in rape and you are very honest, when you meet

:30:35.:30:39.

in Cape Town, there is an attraction that comes back between you. This is

:30:40.:30:45.

taboo stuff, I felt an attraction to the man who raped me. It was not an

:30:46.:30:51.

attraction so much as an acknowledgement, what we had was not

:30:52.:30:57.

just one night. That is where personal relationships, when

:30:58.:31:00.

violence comes into that dynamic, it becomes confusing and messy and I

:31:01.:31:03.

identified him as somebody who caused me immeasurable pain but this

:31:04.:31:10.

was also somebody I had happier moments with but this was a fitting

:31:11.:31:13.

recognition that they had to make because it was not a simple history.

:31:14.:31:20.

Do you see yourself as friends? Is this a friendship you offer?

:31:21.:31:23.

Absolutely not, we are collaborators on a project that, yes, its focus on

:31:24.:31:30.

our personal history but that extends beyond us because

:31:31.:31:33.

unfortunately this is a problem that touches the lives of so many people.

:31:34.:31:39.

Would you still send Tom to jail if the statute of limitations had not

:31:40.:31:47.

run out? That has run out but would I still send him to jail? What we

:31:48.:31:53.

have done is we have worked to the bottom of a very hurtful and painful

:31:54.:31:57.

history. And I think it has resulted in an understanding and I am not

:31:58.:32:02.

sure if incarceration would add much to that but I am very much in favour

:32:03.:32:08.

of the criminal legal system and I very much want to make it clear that

:32:09.:32:12.

I am not preaching impunity in any way but I am one of millions whose

:32:13.:32:18.

case fell through the cracks because they did not react immediately and

:32:19.:32:21.

when I did understand what happened, it was not an option that was

:32:22.:32:25.

fruitful in anyway but I think that what we are doing right now is add

:32:26.:32:29.

value that could contribute to meaningful change and that is my

:32:30.:32:32.

wildest hope. Thank you very much. If you've been affected

:32:33.:32:36.

by any of the issues we've been talking about,

:32:37.:32:38.

details of organisations offering information

:32:39.:32:40.

and support with sexual abuse are available at

:32:41.:32:41.

bbc.co.uk/actionline. Or you can call for free at any

:32:42.:32:42.

time to hear recorded We'll put those numbers

:32:43.:32:45.

on our Newsnight Twitter feed That is all we have time for but I

:32:46.:33:01.

will be back on Monday. Have a good weekend. Good night.

:33:02.:33:09.

The weekend's weather looks a little bit mixed, but for most of us,

:33:10.:33:13.

Saturday is probably going to be the driest and the

:33:14.:33:17.

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