20/03/2017 Newsnight


20/03/2017

The FBI investigates Trump. Is Labour facing a left wing plot? Mervyn King on Brexit and what matters. Did a pregnancy drug cause birth defects?


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Transcript


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It's official, the FBI is not just investigating

:00:00.:00:00.

Russian interference in the US election, but...

:00:07.:00:13.

That includes investigating the nature of any links between

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individuals associated with the Trump campaign and the Russian

:00:20.:00:24.

government and whether there was any coordination between the campaign

:00:25.:00:25.

and Russia's efforts. Yes,

:00:26.:00:30.

it's the strangest An absorbing but bizarre

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intelligence drama centred on the election of the president,

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who was live tweeting We'll ask this Republican

:00:38.:00:39.

Congressman whether everyone is playing politics

:00:40.:00:42.

with national security. The Labour leadership

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gathers to douse down REPORTER: Is there a plot to take

:00:45.:00:45.

over the Labour Party? We'll ask the Shadow Foreign

:00:46.:00:54.

Secretary, Emily Thornberry, what's All the politicians seem obsessed

:00:55.:01:05.

with Brexit. Actually the biggest problems we face now are not Brexit.

:01:06.:01:10.

Former Bank of England Governor, Mervyn King,

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is back to warn we've all taken our eye off the ball.

:01:13.:01:15.

And Marie Lyon believes the pregnancy test she took 40 years

:01:16.:01:18.

ago caused her daughter's disability, and many, many others.

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We'll hear about her campaign for justice.

:01:21.:01:31.

They'll have to make a movie about it at some point.

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The accusations being levelled at Donald Trump,

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Public officials in the US have been caught up in a highly politicised

:01:37.:01:41.

process of inquiry into FBI and NSA investigations.

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For Democrats, the issue is the possibility that the Trump

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campaign colluded with the Russian state in its attempts to hurt

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For the Republicans, the issue is the illegal leaks that

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have brought certain of these matters to public attention.

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The House Intelligence Committee held hearings on these

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matters today, James Comey, the director of the FBI,

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and Mike Rogers, director of the National Security Council.

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And yes, Britain did get an honourable mention

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Here's Newsnight's own intelligence expert, Mark Urban.

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It was bound to be dramatic - two spy chiefs cross-examined

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publicly for the first time on an emerging investigation

:02:26.:02:29.

into the Kremlin's role in the US election.

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The FBI, as part of our counterintelligence mission,

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is investigating the Russian government's efforts to interfere

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That includes investigating the nature of any links

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between individuals associated with the Trump campaign

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and the Russian government and whether there was any

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coordination between the campaign and Russia's efforts.

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Time and again, committee members asked what Russian President Putin

:03:00.:03:06.

It wasn't simply that the Russians had a negative preference

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against Secretary Clinton, they also had a positive

:03:12.:03:13.

preference for Donald Trump, isn't that correct?

:03:14.:03:15.

And on Putin's aim to weaken the West, there was this

:03:16.:03:21.

Would they have a preference for a candidate who encourage Brexit

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Many times, the witnesses were asked about President Trump's

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statements on Twitter, including the allegation that

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Trump Tower was bugged by President Obama.

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With respect to the President's tweets about alleged wiretapping

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during the prior administration, I have no information that

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As for the idea, lent credence by the White House,

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that Britain's GCHQ had performed the interception of

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Trump's Communications, the director of America's

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I have seen nothing on the NSA site that we engaged

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in any such activity, nor that anyone asked us to engage

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And if you were to ask the British to spy on America,

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there would be a violation of US law, would it not?

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In broad terms, the Five Eyes agreement includes an agreement not

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That is the foundation of the agreement.

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Beyond that, each country has constraints within their own

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domestic law that say they cannot use other Five Eyes partners

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or any other intelligence service in order to circumvent

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the constraints of their domestic law.

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So anything that the United States intelligence community is not

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able to do themselves, they are not able to ask a foreign

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intelligence partner to do that on their behalf against Americans.

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But while the hearing produced some light,

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it also produced much heat, partisan, tactical

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questioning, with Republicans emphasising not Russian

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actions, but the seriousness of leaking about them.

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Doesn't that leak hurt our national security?

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Can you think of any reason why somebody would want to

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And Democrats asked questions which stood no chance of

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Being answered because of the ongoing investigation just to put

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Do you think Mr Flint's failure to disclose the communication and

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contact he had with the Russian ambassador and that topic of

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conversation, along with the blatant lie to Vice President Pence, meet

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the standard for an investigation by the FBI?

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As for collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russians, the White

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House today brushed aside the whole idea.

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If you continue to search for something that everybody has been

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briefed hasn't seen or found, I think it's fine to look into it.

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But at the end of the day, they're going to come to the same

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conclusion that everybody else has had.

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So you can continue to look for something,

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but you're continuing to look for something that doesn't exist.

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What we've learned today is that Trump

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and his people will be under scrutiny for months to come about

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their alleged ties with Russia, and the FBI's judgments could prove

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Well, a little earlier, I spoke to Republican

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congressman Will Hurd, who is a member of the House

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Intelligence Committee and was also a former undercover agent

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I asked him how credible it was that intelligence agencies -

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ordered by President Obama - had wiretapped candidate Trump.

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Admiral Rogers confirmed that they would never have requested a foreign

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intelligence agency to do something like that as well. I think a lot of

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President Trump supporters would say those people would say that, they're

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not going to say yeah, we were told to and we did it. In a way, Trump

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supporters are not going to accept the evidence, are they? Well, I

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don't know if I agree with that premise. I think one thing that the

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American people should be happy with is that the separation and checks

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and balances in our government is working. The fact that you have

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folks from the majority party in the House and Senate disagreeing with

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the executive branch is a sign that the process is working. I haven't

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seen any indication from folks, rank and file Americans being concerned

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with this. I think what they are concerned with is they want to see

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this investigation and the Russian involvement in our elections be done

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in a bipartisan, thoughtful and deliberate manner. Do you heart of

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heart think that's what the intelligence committee were today,

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they were bipartisan? The Republicans seem more concerned with

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the leaks. Obviously the Democrats were concerned with potential

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collusion between the Trump team and the Russians. It seemed to be

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falling down party lines to a large degree. Well, I think we've got to

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start with the fact that the scope of our investigation has been made

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public. That is manying that generally doesn't happen. We're

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looking at four areas: We're looking at what technical means did the

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Russians use in order to try to manipulate our elections. Are think

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any Americans associated with Russian intelligence that colluded

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with the Russians? We're looking at what was the government response to

:09:17.:09:20.

these actions and whether those could be improved in the future. And

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the fourth area is the leaks. I think both sides, Republicans and

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Democrats, made it clear that even though somebody may be focussing on

:09:31.:09:33.

one particular area, that's not an indication that the other areas

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don't matter. What you've just spelled out seems like the really

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substantive issue facing your committee. Along comes the president

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with his allegation that's Obama ordered his Trump Tower to be wire

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tapped. Is that just a silly distraction? What is going on there?

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What accounts for why that big thing will be thrown into your

:10:02.:10:05.

proceedings? Well, you'll have to ask the president that question.

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Because I don't have any perspective. I always rely on

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guidance and advice my father has given me. My dad is 85 years old.

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He's told all my friends, right before they got married, it never

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hurts to say you're sorry. I think that's the case here. Just one last

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one, do you think the president, if he believes the things he says and

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the things he tweets, as someone who's been working in intelligence

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yourself, not that long ago, do you believe he understands how it really

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functions and really works? Well, I think there can be a whole lot more

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precision used in language with everybody involved in this scenario.

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We can't think of press reporting as if it's intelligence. Some of my

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Democratic colleagues tried to use some information gleaned from the

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press as if it's proper evidence that's going to stand up in the

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court of law. I think we need to be precise in the use of terms like

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"wire tapping". We need to be precise in how this information is

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gleaned. Ultimately, when it comes to intelligence and law enforcement,

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much of this should not be done in the public eye until after its

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concluded. I think the American people, and honestly the world, have

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an appetite to know what's going on right now, but when it comes to law

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enforcement investigations and intelligence investigations these

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things take time. When we talk about them, all of our language needs to

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be a lot more precise. Congressman, thank you very much.

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Thanks for having me on. There's the impending Article 50

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process, the Scotland issue, there's been election talk in recent

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days, which has been has been resolutely

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smacked down by Number 10. But Labour, at this busy time,

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is in the midst of some You don't have to be hugely trusting

:11:59.:12:01.

of opinion polls to think that when the Conservatives have a 19%

:12:02.:12:05.

lead in them, as they did in a poll today, something

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is going badly for the Opposition. There was an explosive meeting

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of the Parliamentary Nick Watt was outside,

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listening through the door. Tell us about the meeting first.

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Well, it was clearly a dreadful atmosphere, as you say, at tonight's

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meeting. All the bigwigs were there, Peter Mandelson came out and he said

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it reminded him of the dark days of the 1980s. Then Neil Kinnock said

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no, it was far worse than that. It was clear there was shouting and at

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one point, Jeremy Corbyn was referred to as "our so-called

:12:48.:12:54.

leader". Now, give us the cause, let's go two steps. What's got all

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this going? This blew up after a report in the Observer yesterday

:12:59.:13:01.

which had a tape of a private meeting addressed by John Landsman,

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the veteran left-winger who set up the Momentum group. He outlined

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plans to tighten his grip over the Labour movement. He said that if Len

:13:15.:13:24.

McCluskey, the General Secretary of unite, then unite will affiliate to

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Momentum. This is what he said in the tape.

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Tom Watson, the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party, condemned that on the

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Today Programme. This is what he said as he turned up at a meeting

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today, this morning of the Shadow Cabinet. I've responding to

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newspaper reports at the weekend that showed there was a secret plan

:14:01.:14:03.

to take over from the Labour Party. One of the things on the tape was an

:14:04.:14:10.

allegation from the head of Momentum that Unite were going to channel

:14:11.:14:13.

their funds into being part of that process. I think that's very

:14:14.:14:17.

important. I would like Len McCluskey to publicly distance

:14:18.:14:21.

himself from that allegation. After that meeting, it was a Shadow

:14:22.:14:24.

Cabinet away day, reports appeared that Tom Watson had been isolated at

:14:25.:14:29.

that meeting and had been widely reprimanded and John Crier, the

:14:30.:14:33.

chair of the PLP and who attends meetings of the Shadow Cabinet said

:14:34.:14:37.

he did not recognise that account of the meeting and he also said to the

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PLP this evening, he hadn't really paid much attention to this tape. He

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had made a point of listening to it and some members of the PLP heard

:14:47.:14:50.

him talking about an attempt to create a party within a party.

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Lucky with all this going on, that it looks like we're not having an

:14:55.:14:58.

election on May 4th, or whatever the date was meant to be. A definitive

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statement from Number Ten - there is not going to be an early election.

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That's what Theresa May said way back in the summer when she launched

:15:07.:15:11.

her bid for thor to leadership contest. One group who are

:15:12.:15:14.

absolutely delighted by that, that's Jeremy Corbyn and his supporters,

:15:15.:15:18.

because they know 19 points behind in the opinion polls, if there was

:15:19.:15:22.

an election on May 4, bit tricky for them. Tricky for him. Thank you very

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much. With me now is the Shadow Foreign

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Secretary. Festival, can we corroborate that

:15:30.:15:40.

Tom Watson was slapped down for going on the radio this morning and

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ecstasy his concerns? He said this was a battle for the future

:15:46.:15:49.

existence of the Labour Party -- for expressing his concerns. I am going

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to be very boring. I abide by the rules, and that is that Shadow

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Cabinet meetings are private and they are held in an atmosphere of

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trust, and I never say anything about what happens in them. What do

:16:01.:16:05.

you think of Tom Watson going on the radio this morning and said it was a

:16:06.:16:10.

battle for the existence of the Labour Party? It is important that

:16:11.:16:13.

internal discussions and fights within the Labour Party are done

:16:14.:16:18.

privately. We do not need to discuss them in the media. It seems to me

:16:19.:16:22.

that these are things we can discuss internally. The Labour Party is

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about a great deal more than that. Although you say there aren't going

:16:33.:16:34.

to be elections, actually, there are. There are going to be local

:16:35.:16:37.

authority elections, and I think of the elderly woman I met in Warwick

:16:38.:16:40.

who was so worried about the cuts to social care that she was not going

:16:41.:16:43.

to be got up in the morning any more, she was going to be got up at

:16:44.:16:46.

lunchtime. And who was going to help her have breakfast if the cuts to

:16:47.:16:50.

social care went ahead? The cuts to local authorities and policing,

:16:51.:16:54.

these are the things we should be focusing on. So many people have

:16:55.:16:57.

said Labour is letting those people down because it is not serving the

:16:58.:17:03.

role it should of holding the government to account. I am not

:17:04.:17:06.

clear on what is going wrong. Is it that Tom Watson went public with his

:17:07.:17:12.

criticisms? Is it the leader? Is it the MPs? What is it in your view

:17:13.:17:15.

that explains why Labour is 19 points behind the Tories in the

:17:16.:17:20.

poll? After the Shadow Cabinet awayday, there was a statement put

:17:21.:17:25.

out saying that we are a broad church and we have always had

:17:26.:17:27.

different groupings within the Labour Party and as long as it is

:17:28.:17:30.

done within the rules, no one is going to criticise. That has got to

:17:31.:17:36.

be right. That is the settlement on today's argument. Now you have to

:17:37.:17:40.

deal with the fact that poll after poll has you 20 points behind the

:17:41.:17:46.

Conservatives. That is why we have to focus on the policies. If you ask

:17:47.:17:51.

the public about our policies, we are very popular. It is linking

:17:52.:17:56.

those policies with us. I would like to talk about Donald Trump and about

:17:57.:17:59.

what has been happening with the allegations against Britain and the

:18:00.:18:05.

British Secret Service. Instead, I am talking about this. But you can't

:18:06.:18:11.

blame us for that. I'm not. What I am saying is that Labour ought to be

:18:12.:18:15.

debating our best policy offer for the public. You can't get to the

:18:16.:18:20.

policy until you have sorted out the internal dynamics. And yet when it

:18:21.:18:25.

comes to policy discussions, there is so little disagreement. That is

:18:26.:18:29.

because you have had so little to say on policy. When we have

:18:30.:18:33.

discussions on policy, it is actually relatively easy for us to

:18:34.:18:37.

come together, because we have a dreadful government and we know we

:18:38.:18:38.

have to be an alternative to it. We want to be

:18:39.:18:52.

able to put out a policy offer. Then we descend into personality politics

:18:53.:18:54.

and fighting amongst ourselves, and we have to be more disciplined. We

:18:55.:18:57.

have to focus on what the Labour Party is about. After the Budget, it

:18:58.:19:00.

was not the Labour Party that spotted the great flaw that pulled

:19:01.:19:03.

the Chancellor's Budget and made it unravel. It was backbench Tory MPs.

:19:04.:19:08.

Your leader didn't mention it in his follow-up speech, even though it had

:19:09.:19:11.

been trailed three days before. There is something else going on

:19:12.:19:15.

here, and it is not getting better. A year ago, John McDonnell

:19:16.:19:19.

suggested, give us a year and it is going to get much better. It is not.

:19:20.:19:24.

It is getting worse. What is going to get you out of this? I don't

:19:25.:19:31.

think it's getting worse. The Labour Party is a collective endeavour and

:19:32.:19:34.

we all have a duty to do our job as well as we can and to work

:19:35.:19:40.

collectively as one organisation. That is what we should be doing more

:19:41.:19:43.

than anything else. We should keep our focus on what is happening with

:19:44.:19:48.

the housing crisis. What are we going to do about the fact that we

:19:49.:19:51.

are having the number of police officers cut from our streets? These

:19:52.:19:56.

are the things we should be looking at and setting forward an

:19:57.:19:59.

alternative. When the party has sorted out the issues, people will

:20:00.:20:05.

probably give more time to that. Do you want Len McCluskey to win the

:20:06.:20:09.

election for general secretary of Unite next week? I am a member of

:20:10.:20:16.

Unite and I will vote for him. So yes, I would think he would be a

:20:17.:20:21.

good leader. Then can I assume that you have no worries about Unite and

:20:22.:20:24.

Momentum getting together and perhaps working more in unison and

:20:25.:20:30.

exerting more power over the Labour Party? Whether Unite affiliate to

:20:31.:20:36.

Momentum or the other way round am a it is not a matter for the leader of

:20:37.:20:42.

Unite, it is a decision that Unite had to make collectively. That is

:20:43.:20:50.

useful. Another issue that is relevant is whether the rules of the

:20:51.:20:54.

Labour Party should be changed to make it possible for a leader to be

:20:55.:21:00.

collected with just support from 5% of the MPs. At the moment, it is

:21:01.:21:05.

15%. It doesn't seem like an enormous hurdle, but John McDonnell

:21:06.:21:08.

has suggested that it should come down to five. Do you think that

:21:09.:21:11.

would be a better way of electing the leader? Well, there have been a

:21:12.:21:15.

number of suggestions. Tom wants it to be a third again. These

:21:16.:21:20.

discussions will happen internally. To be honest, those discussions will

:21:21.:21:28.

not get that lady who is being held in bed until lunchtime because the

:21:29.:21:31.

social services are not coming to get her up out of bed. That is what

:21:32.:21:36.

we should focus on in public, and that is the important stuff of

:21:37.:21:39.

politics. Politics is about power and changing people's lives. When

:21:40.:21:44.

Jeremy Corbyn was elected leader, there was a suggestion that the

:21:45.:21:47.

Scottish Labour Party would have a resurgence and that he would better

:21:48.:21:51.

connect with the values of Scotland. Since he was elected leader, the

:21:52.:21:53.

Conservatives have overtaken Labour in Scotland and indeed, Labour is

:21:54.:22:00.

seen as being in some difficulty of that. Should those people who

:22:01.:22:03.

thought that by backing Corbyn, a kind of untapped socialist murmur

:22:04.:22:09.

around the country would be harnessed and would be brought to

:22:10.:22:13.

light, should they be disappointed that this has simply not worked? It

:22:14.:22:19.

has not gone to plan at all. I think that politics in Scotland ought to

:22:20.:22:23.

focus on the party which has been in power for ten years. The schools are

:22:24.:22:28.

failing. The health service is failing, and they have just

:22:29.:22:32.

introduced a huge cuts which they need not have done. They have powers

:22:33.:22:36.

devolved, and yet they are not using them. But there are continuing to

:22:37.:22:42.

bring up constitutional crisis after constitutional crisis to cover the

:22:43.:22:45.

fact that they are not doing their job properly in Scotland. It is up

:22:46.:22:51.

to Labour in Scotland, and I spoke to Kezia Dugdale tonight. This is

:22:52.:22:53.

what she will be pointing out during the elections. We need her to have

:22:54.:22:58.

the space to say that and not spend our time fighting amongst ourselves

:22:59.:23:01.

and discussing people's personalities. Emily Thornberry,

:23:02.:23:02.

thanks very much. Not a general election, it's not

:23:03.:23:04.

a boy, or a girl, it's Article 50. 279 days after the June 23rd

:23:05.:23:10.

referendum, nine months and a few extra days,

:23:11.:23:12.

the Brexit process begins. All the arguments, the chatter,

:23:13.:23:15.

the thinking about this option Clear your diaries -

:23:16.:23:21.

here's how the timetable now looks. On the day itself, Theresa May

:23:22.:23:27.

will send a letter to Donald Tusk, president of the European Council,

:23:28.:23:31.

and will address the Commons. Within 48 hours, the council

:23:32.:23:35.

will publish Then everything is put

:23:36.:23:38.

on pause till late April, when other EU leaders are expected

:23:39.:23:44.

to meet to agree The talks themselves

:23:45.:23:47.

should then begin sometime in May after the final

:23:48.:23:50.

round of the French

:23:51.:23:52.

presidential election. through the German general

:23:53.:23:54.

election in September, to a vote in the UK and European

:23:55.:24:01.

parliaments Then Brexit becomes a reality,

:24:02.:24:09.

two years from now. Victoria Dean was a diplomat

:24:10.:24:16.

for 20 years, including being the Foreign Office's deputy

:24:17.:24:19.

director on Europe and also spokesperson for the UK's permanent

:24:20.:24:22.

representation to the EU. She now heads the Brexit unit

:24:23.:24:24.

at Portland Communications. We thought we would get you to help

:24:25.:24:39.

us understand some of the Kokrak every -- choreography of this. The

:24:40.:24:44.

other 27 will have a meeting in late April, it seems. That is exactly

:24:45.:24:48.

what they will do. They will need to coordinate their position in

:24:49.:24:53.

response to the UK invoking article 50. We expect that they will get

:24:54.:24:56.

together at the end of April, rumour had it the 27th. I think that is

:24:57.:25:02.

tricky timing. But they have to agree a line. What if they can't?

:25:03.:25:08.

Does that store things? It does, and it could take more than one meeting.

:25:09.:25:11.

But they have been preparing for months. They have had plenty of time

:25:12.:25:15.

to start to get their ducks in a row, and they then give a mandate to

:25:16.:25:19.

the commission who will lead discussions. So the commission lead

:25:20.:25:24.

the negotiations. Can we divide and rule of it here? Can we bung a few

:25:25.:25:26.

favours to one lot and say, be on our side on this or that?

:25:27.:25:44.

I certainly think that is what the UK has been trying to do and will

:25:45.:25:47.

probably continue to have a go at, but there is a strong case for

:25:48.:25:49.

European Union member states to come together and have some unity on

:25:50.:25:52.

this. To some extent, it is the job of the lead negotiator to keep the

:25:53.:25:55.

member states together as much as he can on this. They know they will be

:25:56.:25:58.

more successful if they are united. We keep talking about the

:25:59.:26:00.

negotiations of a Dale. Physically, give me the picture of what we mean.

:26:01.:26:05.

Said David Davis or are we talking people lower down the food chain?

:26:06.:26:09.

Where will they be? What language will they be talking? Are we talking

:26:10.:26:17.

thousands of pages of things passing backwards and forwards? None of that

:26:18.:26:22.

is set in stone, but we expect it will be Barnier on one side and

:26:23.:26:29.

David Davis. David Davis will not be there every day, though. Of course

:26:30.:26:34.

not. Barnier has already set out who his team is and has divided them

:26:35.:26:40.

into different sectors. He has played specialists and financial

:26:41.:26:43.

services specialists, so we know about his negotiating team already.

:26:44.:26:48.

I expect there will be lots that happens outside the room and outside

:26:49.:26:55.

the formal negotiations. And it is going to be in English? It will have

:26:56.:26:59.

to be in English. I don't know how Barnier will feel about that. So

:27:00.:27:10.

they have a few things to work out about the citizens of different

:27:11.:27:12.

countries and the Brexit bill. We have to sort out the bill. If we get

:27:13.:27:20.

stuck on that, seriously, does nothing happened for the whole two

:27:21.:27:27.

years while we say no? That is a strong possibility, and plenty of

:27:28.:27:30.

people will co-you that that is what will happen, that negotiations will

:27:31.:27:34.

run into the sand over the issue of the bill and the 60 billion euros.

:27:35.:27:37.

We might never even get into the real meat of the negotiations

:27:38.:27:41.

themselves. I think there is a way around that. As Newsnight reported

:27:42.:27:48.

last week, you can park in a separate process between number

:27:49.:27:52.

crunchers what happens on the 60 billion. That is a concession on

:27:53.:27:56.

both sides already, that there is a bill to be paid and that the number

:27:57.:28:01.

can be discussed elsewhere. So perhaps that is a price worth paying

:28:02.:28:06.

to allow you to get into the meat of the negotiations. You're right that

:28:07.:28:10.

the other issue that the Prime Minister will want to tackle early

:28:11.:28:14.

is the status of EU nationals in the UK and in return, UK nationals in

:28:15.:28:19.

the EU. And in one word, if we agree on a status for EU nationals but

:28:20.:28:22.

don't agree on anything else, the status will stay as agreed

:28:23.:28:26.

presumably, or does that fall away when you have no agreement on

:28:27.:28:31.

anything else? All we know is that it is not agreed until it is all

:28:32.:28:34.

agreed. Victoria, thank you very much.

:28:35.:28:36.

Lord King, Mervyn King, who was Governor of the Bank

:28:37.:28:38.

of England, through the good years and the bad years in

:28:39.:28:41.

He's at the midst of many of the traumas of the time

:28:42.:28:45.

and wrote his account of what had gone wrong in a book published last

:28:46.:28:48.

But it's been a long year and a lot has happened since.

:28:49.:28:53.

So the new paperback version of the book has a preface updating

:28:54.:28:55.

He is, for example, more comfortable with Brexit

:28:56.:28:59.

First, does he have any worries about Theresa May triggering Article

:29:00.:29:04.

Well, it's bound to be a complex process.

:29:05.:29:08.

My biggest concern is not about the challenge of Brexit as such,

:29:09.:29:14.

but about whether we're going to make the decisions early enough

:29:15.:29:17.

that would enable us to make the practical planning

:29:18.:29:19.

we should have a simple, clean Brexit and minimise the scale

:29:20.:29:26.

There's a danger that we won't make progress in negotiations,

:29:27.:29:30.

at least within the two-year horizon.

:29:31.:29:33.

But what follows from that is not that we say OK

:29:34.:29:36.

and give in to everything the other side demands.

:29:37.:29:39.

We say "These are the things that are under our control",

:29:40.:29:43.

and a clean Brexit is under our control.

:29:44.:29:46.

There will be things that we will want to discuss,

:29:47.:29:49.

but we have to minimise the area of negotiation.

:29:50.:29:51.

And I think the Government also has to point out

:29:52.:29:54.

the potential opportunities that Brexit gives.

:29:55.:29:57.

We could restructure the way we give subsidies to agriculture.

:29:58.:30:00.

We could, for example, in Northern Ireland,

:30:01.:30:02.

which is a problem that deserves more attention

:30:03.:30:05.

than it is getting at present, try and have a conversation

:30:06.:30:08.

with the government south of the border -

:30:09.:30:11.

I know they were very nervous about the Brexit outcome,

:30:12.:30:15.

I was there just before the referendum - and say to them

:30:16.:30:18.

"Can we find a way of shifting the tax and tariff border

:30:19.:30:22.

from the land frontier to the sea frontier,

:30:23.:30:25.

while not disturbing the political arrangements?"

:30:26.:30:26.

I think it's in everyone's interest to have an imaginative discussion

:30:27.:30:29.

You mean have a customs border between Northern Ireland

:30:30.:30:36.

And there's no reason why the rate of corporation tax

:30:37.:30:41.

in Northern Ireland has to be the same as in the rest of the UK

:30:42.:30:44.

A lot has been said about the potential for a UK-US

:30:45.:30:51.

Would such a deal benefit the UK's trade balance

:30:52.:30:58.

My feeling is that both sides are thinking "We'll sign all these

:30:59.:31:03.

deals and we'll suddenly be exporting more and bringing our

:31:04.:31:05.

country into better balance", but both of us have the same problem

:31:06.:31:08.

and I'm not sure which one of us would benefit.

:31:09.:31:12.

We in the UK need to do something about our trade deficit.

:31:13.:31:15.

My biggest worry about economic policy in the next few years is that

:31:16.:31:23.

all the politicians seem obsessed with Brexit and actually,

:31:24.:31:25.

the biggest problems we face now are not Brexit.

:31:26.:31:29.

It's about how we can reduce the trade deficit,

:31:30.:31:32.

how we're going to save enough as a nation to pay for our pensions,

:31:33.:31:35.

because the pension scheme has deteriorated over the last 25 years,

:31:36.:31:40.

how we're going to save enough to pay for care

:31:41.:31:46.

for the elderly when we all become so old that we need that support.

:31:47.:31:49.

These are the big economic challenges, and if politicians

:31:50.:31:53.

ignore those and focus only on Brexit for the next two

:31:54.:31:56.

or three years, then those big questions will not receive

:31:57.:31:59.

And you think they might be giving too little weight to those

:32:00.:32:03.

Well, it's clear that their mind is now completely on Brexit,

:32:04.:32:08.

I just want to talk briefly about Scotland, which

:32:09.:32:12.

you mention in your book and you say would have been viable as a nation

:32:13.:32:16.

at the time of the last referendum and Project Fear

:32:17.:32:19.

was perhaps overdone at the time of the last referendum.

:32:20.:32:23.

The revenue that Scotland would derive from oil is much lower.

:32:24.:32:28.

Do you still think Scotland would be viable as a nation?

:32:29.:32:31.

Scotland could certainly be an independent country.

:32:32.:32:34.

There are plenty of small countries the same size as Scotland.

:32:35.:32:37.

Scotland has both the people and the capital city,

:32:38.:32:41.

The question is, does it want to be, given the consequences?

:32:42.:32:48.

I myself don't think there are any major problems in terms of currency.

:32:49.:32:51.

That was the thing that Project Fear focused on last time.

:32:52.:32:55.

But there is an issue about public finances.

:32:56.:32:58.

If the oil price remains low and if they lose the money

:32:59.:33:01.

which is transferred from the rest of the UK to Scotland,

:33:02.:33:05.

they would have to make that up in their own budget.

:33:06.:33:08.

But that is a consequence of deciding to be

:33:09.:33:10.

It would be a challenge to borrow on the international market

:33:11.:33:17.

in Scotland decided to run a large budget deficit.

:33:18.:33:19.

But that's one of the consequences of saying

:33:20.:33:25.

"If we want to be independent, we have to accept the consequences".

:33:26.:33:28.

Donald Trump, one of the things he has said he wants to do

:33:29.:33:34.

the big post-crisis regulatory change in the US.

:33:35.:33:40.

He thinks it's getting in the way and he wants a more

:33:41.:33:43.

Is that the right approach, and are you worried

:33:44.:33:47.

about the fragility of the global banking system still,

:33:48.:33:50.

which is two years on since you wrote the first edition

:33:51.:33:52.

I think there is an argument which can be made to support part

:33:53.:33:58.

of the move that President Trump wants to make, which is that we have

:33:59.:34:02.

made the regulatory system incredibly complex.

:34:03.:34:06.

People who work in banks have to go to their compliance officer

:34:07.:34:09.

What regulators have done is to produce literally thousands

:34:10.:34:15.

of pages of regulations and say "You must obey each of these".

:34:16.:34:18.

And they've done it in order to prevent a repetition

:34:19.:34:20.

But of course, the next financial crisis that comes along

:34:21.:34:25.

won't look quite like the one that happened before.

:34:26.:34:28.

Are you scared of any banks having a run on them

:34:29.:34:30.

But elsewhere in the world, there are concerns

:34:31.:34:36.

In Europe, the banking system is still fragile.

:34:37.:34:41.

We've seen concerns about the financial sector in China.

:34:42.:34:44.

and the thing that everyone needs to be concerned about is,

:34:45.:34:48.

in the banking sector in one part of the world,

:34:49.:34:53.

it can quite easily lead to problems with the banking system elsewhere

:34:54.:34:56.

So our banks are in good shape, but if there were a serious problem

:34:57.:35:01.

there would be a blowback to our banking system as well.

:35:02.:35:10.

And for those of you that want to see the full, unedited,

:35:11.:35:13.

version of that interview, it's up on our YouTube channel now.

:35:14.:35:18.

Primodos was a drug made by the German company Schering back

:35:19.:35:21.

in the '60s and '70s, sometimes used as a way

:35:22.:35:23.

But using powerful synthetic hormones, it may have caused birth

:35:24.:35:29.

defects in the children of pregnant women.

:35:30.:35:32.

It was withdrawn from use in the '70s, but the question

:35:33.:35:35.

of whether the drug was behind a number of birth defects

:35:36.:35:38.

This week, campaigners are meeting the Department of Health

:35:39.:35:43.

to discuss the progress, or lack thereof, of an expert

:35:44.:35:46.

There's a Sky News documentary on the drug tomorrow.

:35:47.:35:52.

But the story has a twist: in 2015, campaigner Marie Lyon found

:35:53.:35:55.

internal company documents in the Berlin State Archive

:35:56.:35:59.

suggesting that our own Chief Medical Officer had warned

:36:00.:36:03.

Schering in 1975 that Primodos did indeed cause such abnormalities,

:36:04.:36:06.

and he had then destroyed the evidence so that it

:36:07.:36:10.

Very good evening to you. Hello. You took Primodos. I did, yes. You think

:36:11.:36:23.

it affected your daughter. What affect did it have? When Sarah was

:36:24.:36:28.

born, she had her arm missing from just below the elbow. There was a

:36:29.:36:35.

tiny pad, five tiny fingers where the arm should have been. It was as

:36:36.:36:41.

if the growth had just stopped quite abruptly much those fingers and that

:36:42.:36:44.

tiny pad were actually amputate whenned she was 13 months old. --

:36:45.:36:51.

amputated when she was 13 months old so she could be fitted with an

:36:52.:36:56.

artificial arm. She has the artificial arm and working. She is,

:36:57.:37:00.

yes. She came out of relatively well compared to some. She certainly did.

:37:01.:37:05.

We have a lot of our members with multiple abnormalities, not just

:37:06.:37:11.

one. You've got transposition of valves, heart disease, brain

:37:12.:37:15.

disease, you know spina bifida. What is the actual evidence that the

:37:16.:37:20.

including was involved in this? We had quite a lot of evidence. There's

:37:21.:37:30.

the that titical graph that shows that -- statistics graph that shows

:37:31.:37:33.

it was on track with the abnormalities. We found that there

:37:34.:37:41.

were testing results in the files and they showed abnormalities in

:37:42.:37:47.

animal studies. Also, the drug itself was manufactured as an

:37:48.:37:52.

abortive agent. A drug that's 40 times the strength of oral

:37:53.:37:55.

contraceptive is a huge thing to give to a woman early in pregnancy.

:37:56.:38:00.

It is. If you think back to those times, now you just say, what were

:38:01.:38:03.

they thinking. They weren't. When you took the drug, what was - it was

:38:04.:38:10.

a pill presumably? Two tablets, yes. Do you even remember taking it? Of

:38:11.:38:14.

course, I do. It's something because it was my first child. So my initial

:38:15.:38:19.

thoughts were it would be a urine test. The urine test was very widely

:38:20.:38:24.

available at that time. When I was given the two tablets, it was sort

:38:25.:38:29.

of on the understanding that this is new, this is quick. You'll be able

:38:30.:38:34.

to know you're pregnant within days. So I didn't question because my

:38:35.:38:39.

doctor gave them to me. Consequently - You didn't know that it was a

:38:40.:38:45.

powerful hormone? I had no idea. We weren't even told. It was a test, it

:38:46.:38:52.

wasn't a therapy like Thalidomide. The only purpose for this was money.

:38:53.:38:58.

Bayer, which now owns the company which produced the drug, reject all

:38:59.:39:01.

claims that there was a link. There was a court case. There was. The

:39:02.:39:08.

link wasn't held up in that case, that was in the 80s. We didn't get

:39:09.:39:13.

to that stage. We had a handful of scientists willing to give evidence.

:39:14.:39:19.

Schering had the same number of scientists, including I may add Dr

:39:20.:39:24.

William Inman the commissioner on the safety of medicine. So he was

:39:25.:39:27.

someone who should have been looking after the health of the women in the

:39:28.:39:33.

UK, but he actually chose to give evidence on behalf of Scherings

:39:34.:39:37.

against the association. We had to withdraw and that really is the

:39:38.:39:43.

bottom line. We withdrew because we were outnumbered and outgunned. But

:39:44.:39:47.

the judge at the time insisted that the case should not be closed. And

:39:48.:39:50.

it's not closed for you. No it absolutely isn't. There are too many

:39:51.:39:55.

people whose lives have been affected for #40 plus years. They've

:39:56.:39:59.

lived half a life. That's how you've got to look at it. It's about time

:40:00.:40:04.

that answers were actually given and it's about time that Bayer actually

:40:05.:40:09.

were big enough to actually release all the documentation. I will stress

:40:10.:40:13.

that Bayer of course deny it. I understand that. Thank you very

:40:14.:40:16.

much. You're very welcome. Thank you.

:40:17.:40:21.

Dame Vera Lynn, the forces sweetheart whose songs kept the home

:40:22.:40:23.

fires burning during World War Two, celebrated her hundredth today.

:40:24.:40:26.

Unfortunately the Spitfire flyby in her honour had to be cancelled

:40:27.:40:28.

because of bad weather, but the rain didn't

:40:29.:40:31.

frighten the residents of Priory House in Leamington Spa,

:40:32.:40:34.

We leave you tonight with Dame Vera - and the memories of Esme,

:40:35.:40:41.

# We'll meet again, don't know where, don't know when ... She

:40:42.:40:57.

represents family and home really, to me. Because she wasn't

:40:58.:41:02.

particularly young, was she, when she was singing. Everybody could

:41:03.:41:10.

relate to her. # Keep smiling through, just like

:41:11.:41:20.

you always do # Till that blue skies lift the dark

:41:21.:41:26.

clouds far away... We only had radios, we didn't have television.

:41:27.:41:30.

When she sang, it really did lift us. It really did. I thought she was

:41:31.:41:37.

marvellous. -- marvellous. We all had to make our own entertainment.

:41:38.:41:45.

And to sing together was people and choirs, was a lovely way for the

:41:46.:41:51.

community to get together. You couldn't always have expensive dos,

:41:52.:41:55.

but you could have a sing along. # Don't know where, don't know when

:41:56.:42:02.

# But we'll meet again some sunny day

:42:03.:42:08.

# We'll meet again # Don't know where, don't know when

:42:09.:42:18.

# But I know we'll meet again some sunny day.

:42:19.:42:29.

Hello. There warnings of snow and ice for Scotland and Northern

:42:30.:42:34.

Ireland overnight and into the rush hour. Definite winter chill in the

:42:35.:42:39.

air. Many central and Eastern parts of England

:42:40.:42:40.

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