30/03/2017 Newsnight


30/03/2017

With Evan Davis. Including an interview with the German defence minister, a look at the Repeal Bill, and Myriam Francois on dress codes.


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Transcript


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We're getting our independence from the EU, which means the EU

:00:00.:00:00.

The German defence minister tell us they're thinking

:00:07.:00:17.

It is true that our British friends were not enthusiastic about the

:00:18.:00:27.

Meanwhile Brexit is underway on all fronts -

:00:28.:00:30.

with new plans to change EU law into UK law today.

:00:31.:00:35.

We'll rehearse the debate among Remainers as to whether to carry

:00:36.:00:37.

on fighting Brexit, or to accept the referendum result.

:00:38.:00:43.

We are in Scotland to hear how it's not the first time the country's

:00:44.:00:46.

found itself making a choice between its neighbours.

:00:47.:00:48.

There have been tensions before between these two

:00:49.:00:50.

The country's sense of its Britishness and its Europeanness.

:00:51.:01:00.

Until recently it could quite happily be both, but not any more.

:01:01.:01:03.

Ivanka Trump - not the First Lady but probably the most powerful

:01:04.:01:07.

Is it right that she now sits at the top

:01:08.:01:15.

It's going to be a two year marathon,

:01:16.:01:28.

not a two week sprint, so it's hard to know how much weight

:01:29.:01:31.

we should be putting on the reactions of other European

:01:32.:01:33.

leaders on Day 2, to Theresa May's letter triggering Article 50.

:01:34.:01:40.

but the words imply that the EU wants to stick to its procedures

:01:41.:01:48.

Dominating European politics at the moment is the centre right

:01:49.:01:53.

It's called the European People's Party, and it's enjoying a two-day

:01:54.:01:59.

The German Chancellor Angela Merkel is there, as is the European

:02:00.:02:03.

Commission President, Jean Claude Juncker,

:02:04.:02:04.

and Brexit of course, among the topics being talked about.

:02:05.:02:10.

I wish to say here that Brexit is of everything. We must consider it to

:02:11.:02:22.

be a new beginning, something that is stronger, something that is

:02:23.:02:29.

better. If Jean-Claude Juncker's view there.

:02:30.:02:30.

So much for the set-piece statements.

:02:31.:02:32.

Perhaps it is better to step away from the platform speeches,

:02:33.:02:34.

and to focus on more specific areas and at more length.

:02:35.:02:37.

To that end, let's go to Berlin, because our diplomatic editor

:02:38.:02:39.

Mark Urban is there, and he has been speaking

:02:40.:02:42.

I know you have been speaking about a number of different things but in

:02:43.:02:50.

particular, just the issue of the German attitudes towards the Article

:02:51.:02:55.

50 talks. What have you been hearing? Well, the fascinating

:02:56.:02:59.

thing, being here at this particular time, is watching German politicians

:03:00.:03:04.

processing the way that the departure of the UK, which they

:03:05.:03:08.

hoped wouldn't happen, is going to change the geometry, the balance of

:03:09.:03:12.

power on all sorts of issues within the EU. They will end up almost

:03:13.:03:15.

certainly paying more into the budget. We don't like the idea that

:03:16.:03:21.

it -- they don't like the idea that it will even out differences in

:03:22.:03:23.

wealth with them being net contributors. They can see some

:03:24.:03:27.

positives and on the issue of European defence policy, that could

:03:28.:03:30.

be one because obviously the British were standing in the way of that in

:03:31.:03:38.

many areas. But what a moment to sit down with the possible successor to

:03:39.:03:42.

Chancellor Merkel. She is the defence minister and we started

:03:43.:03:48.

talking about the issues of the moment and what she made of

:03:49.:03:53.

Britain's attempt, apparently, to use security as a bargaining chip. I

:03:54.:03:59.

do not expect that we're going to Bagan with security topics because

:04:00.:04:07.

it is in our mutual interests to exchange information and necessary.

:04:08.:04:12.

-- I do not expect that we are going to Bagan. It is vital for the two of

:04:13.:04:19.

us. It is about trade and the common market and those are the important

:04:20.:04:24.

things. What is your view about the sequence of this? Can be no real

:04:25.:04:27.

discussion about the wider relationship until it has been

:04:28.:04:30.

settled that the UK will make a contribution on the budget? Well, I

:04:31.:04:36.

have a different approach because at the beginning we said there would be

:04:37.:04:42.

no negotiations before Article 50 has been pulled. This happened

:04:43.:04:48.

yesterday. Then the experts will go into negotiations and one thing is

:04:49.:04:54.

clear, the new contract, the new deal will only be signed once

:04:55.:04:57.

everything has been negotiated. You cannot take bits and pieces apart

:04:58.:05:03.

and close them and go further on other topics. So the whole deal will

:05:04.:05:08.

be visible at the very end, but there is nothing, I think, that we

:05:09.:05:13.

should not speak of openly and addressed directly. How important is

:05:14.:05:19.

it, in that context, that the UK pay its Bill? People have talked about

:05:20.:05:26.

up to 60 billion euros in contributions up to 2020. Of course,

:05:27.:05:31.

as long as the UK is a member of the European Union, you have to meet the

:05:32.:05:41.

contracts, but what that is, at the very end and at the beginning, day

:05:42.:05:48.

one two after the letter has been brought to Brussels, I think we

:05:49.:05:51.

should look at it calmly, and really sort out what is with the membership

:05:52.:05:58.

that has to be paid for, and what is in the negotiation pot which is

:05:59.:06:06.

another topic. You and your British counterparts working on a new

:06:07.:06:12.

defence joint vision, what can we expect from that? Michael Fallon and

:06:13.:06:20.

me, and we want to improve and strengthen the British German

:06:21.:06:24.

military cooperation. That is why we are working on a joint vision, a

:06:25.:06:30.

bilateral thing for the future, how we can improve cooperation with the

:06:31.:06:35.

Armed Forces here, the Maritime forces for example. Exchanging

:06:36.:06:41.

officers, going into training, having common capability

:06:42.:06:44.

developments, things like that. How important is it to get big European

:06:45.:06:49.

dimension of defence right at this particular time? Is the American

:06:50.:06:53.

guarantee is becoming less credible for want of a better word? There

:06:54.:06:58.

were a lot of worries on the European side when we heard

:06:59.:07:03.

contradictory tones from the White House. Saying that it was obsolete,

:07:04.:07:10.

that Nato was great. It was not easy at the beginning. What it triggered

:07:11.:07:16.

was two things. First of all, the question, can we rely on Nato, and

:07:17.:07:23.

today I say, firmly two more firmly than ever, this weekend. On the

:07:24.:07:29.

other hand, the contradictory statements from the White House may

:07:30.:07:33.

give the impression to the Europeans that we have to get our own act

:07:34.:07:38.

together. Crudely, and be blunt, does the UK going make it easier for

:07:39.:07:44.

you to get your act together at the EU level? Because Britain was

:07:45.:07:49.

blocking a lot of this. It is true that our British friends were not

:07:50.:07:53.

enthusiastic about the European security and defence union. Once

:07:54.:08:00.

again, I think it is a pity that the UK is leaving. But it is a fact. And

:08:01.:08:08.

what pushed the European idea forward was more what we heard from

:08:09.:08:13.

the White House after the American election. There have been a lot of

:08:14.:08:17.

reports about the meeting the Chancellor Merkel had. Is it true

:08:18.:08:22.

that President Trump give her a bill for the American defence of Germany?

:08:23.:08:26.

It is not true. But we have all seen the tweet. That presumably Germany

:08:27.:08:37.

owes Nato vast sums of money. But we all know that Nato does not have

:08:38.:08:43.

that account. But you think you can get to the 2% of GDP that it?

:08:44.:08:48.

Absolutely. Because smaller countries, the Baltic states for

:08:49.:08:52.

example, work hard on reaching this 2% goal, two, and nobody would

:08:53.:08:59.

understand that better than a country like Germany, who is

:09:00.:09:04.

determined to have a certain relevance in economic terms, and

:09:05.:09:10.

will not shy away from taking over the amount of responsibility that is

:09:11.:09:14.

necessary in security matters. The 2% goal, it is also a symbol for the

:09:15.:09:23.

resolve to take a fair share of the burden. And we need it. Lastly, I

:09:24.:09:28.

wanted to ask you about Chancellor Merkel. You are one of the very few

:09:29.:09:31.

ministers who has been there right since the beginning with her.

:09:32.:09:39.

Shoulder to shoulder. Did you think, for example during the refugee

:09:40.:09:42.

crisis, I do not think she is going to make it, this is too big? During

:09:43.:09:47.

the refugee crisis, I never doubted that she would make it, because as

:09:48.:09:50.

you said, I was working very closely with her. The problem was that

:09:51.:09:56.

within a few weeks we had to give a very complex answer on how to end

:09:57.:10:01.

this influx of refugees, and when you start to give them an answer

:10:02.:10:06.

that begins in Syria and Iraq and goes through Turkey, to Germany and

:10:07.:10:11.

the local communities, and people go, please, give us a quick answer

:10:12.:10:16.

but don't tell us this long story. Well, it is different now after two

:10:17.:10:19.

years, so the long story now has been learned, and understood, and

:10:20.:10:27.

therefore the confidence and trust is again, that the Chancellor is

:10:28.:10:36.

leading us safely through those very difficult times. Thank you very

:10:37.:10:45.

much, Minister. Mark Urban talking to Ursula von der Leyen, the German

:10:46.:10:47.

defence minister. Meanwhile, we got more detail

:10:48.:10:48.

on the gargantuan task of turning EU There are thousands of pieces

:10:49.:10:51.

of European legislation, the idea is that one new act

:10:52.:10:54.

of Parliament transposes The Great Repeal Bill,

:10:55.:10:57.

as it is referred to now, and it cuts through the impossible

:10:58.:11:03.

task of taking the laws Some of the laws need cleaning up,

:11:04.:11:05.

so the government wants ministers to have the power to re-write

:11:06.:11:16.

bits of them. These are called Henry VIII powers

:11:17.:11:19.

as the egoistical king gave himself exactly

:11:20.:11:21.

that law-making authority. Everybody recognises that some

:11:22.:11:22.

delegated authority will be needed but you can't give completely

:11:23.:11:29.

free reign to ministers. Our political editor

:11:30.:11:37.

Nick Watt is with me. What do you take from today? Over

:11:38.:11:45.

the last 48 hours we have seen the fruits of some careful planning

:11:46.:11:50.

meant to tell the public that we are leading the European Union and that

:11:51.:11:53.

the government has a credible plan to do it. Yesterday, as you were

:11:54.:11:59.

saying, essentially what David Davis was saying is that the UK will land

:12:00.:12:04.

in a legal safe zone on the day after we leave. But interestingly,

:12:05.:12:07.

there is a debate going on in the Conservative Party on that point.

:12:08.:12:10.

You were mentioning the incorporation of all that EU law

:12:11.:12:14.

into UK law. Some of the old guard of Tory Eurosceptics are saying, you

:12:15.:12:18.

know what we want to do with that legislation, we want to get rid of

:12:19.:12:22.

it because Brexit has liberated the UK to be a more liberal economy, but

:12:23.:12:27.

some of the younger guard, in the highly influential European research

:12:28.:12:32.

group, the influential group of Brexiteers, they are saying hold

:12:33.:12:34.

your horses, one step at a time, let's just focus on Brexit, and what

:12:35.:12:39.

we might want to repeal, let's think about after the next election. So

:12:40.:12:44.

what that means is that there is going to be quite a debate on what

:12:45.:12:48.

you should have in the Conservative manifesto for the next election. So

:12:49.:12:51.

look, here is what I have picked up today.

:12:52.:12:58.

It has been dubbed a Briton's greatest peacetime challenge. Today

:12:59.:13:04.

the government of the first steps to ensure that the UK leads you on a

:13:05.:13:08.

sound legal footing, although the grand title was slightly downgraded.

:13:09.:13:16.

First up, the scrapping of the legislation that took us into the

:13:17.:13:25.

EEC in the first place. Once that has been struck down, the government

:13:26.:13:28.

will incorporate the entire body of EU law into UK law. And then we will

:13:29.:13:38.

see the return of England's favourite rotund monarch. As various

:13:39.:13:46.

EU regulations are tweaked around 1000 times. This will be done

:13:47.:13:51.

through a fast-track route with light Parliamentary scrutiny, known

:13:52.:13:55.

as the Henry VIII clauses. And then we will see the return of England's

:13:56.:14:03.

favourite rotund monarch. Various EU regulations will be tweaked around

:14:04.:14:09.

1000 times and this will be done through a fast-track route with

:14:10.:14:11.

light Parliamentary scrutiny known as the Henry VIII clauses. For

:14:12.:14:17.

veteran Eurosceptics, this is a moment of liberation. Can I thank my

:14:18.:14:23.

right honourable friend for making it clear that two years from today,

:14:24.:14:28.

our sovereign parliament will indeed have the power to amend, repeal or

:14:29.:14:31.

improve all of this ghastly EU legislation.

:14:32.:14:40.

Downing Street is acutely conscious of the political sensitivities of

:14:41.:14:48.

scrapping workers' rights such reason they wants to even enhance

:14:49.:14:51.

them but as for other rights, Number 10 says, let us focus on Brexit and

:14:52.:14:55.

leave that debate until the next election. It is fundamentally

:14:56.:15:01.

important we have robust workers' rights, we have to protect workers

:15:02.:15:05.

and we also heard ministers say that where we can we want to build on

:15:06.:15:09.

that and make progress, we have often been at the forefront of that

:15:10.:15:14.

work in the EU and in my constituency I work very closely

:15:15.:15:17.

with the unions and I want to see a constructive debate in this country

:15:18.:15:21.

about all of these different policy areas and come up with a set of

:15:22.:15:26.

policies, we must get this right. In the heart of government there are

:15:27.:15:30.

far greater nerves about the next step, the looming Parliamentary

:15:31.:15:33.

battles over what is known as a Great Repeal Bill. Some ministers

:15:34.:15:37.

are warning Theresa May and she may be forced to hold a snap General

:15:38.:15:42.

Election next year if either of the Commons, the House of Lords or the

:15:43.:15:46.

Scottish Parliament succeeds in delaying or even scuppering that

:15:47.:15:51.

bill. In both the House of Commons and House of Lords there is a huge

:15:52.:15:55.

amount of originally and argy-bargy, everything they have done at every

:15:56.:15:59.

turn, not just this bill but way they had to be brought kicking and

:16:00.:16:04.

screaming to accept that Parliament has a role, even if it is an

:16:05.:16:11.

excessively limited role, in determining the final deal and they

:16:12.:16:14.

have done the exact reverse to what they told the country they would do.

:16:15.:16:18.

The Scottish Parliament could hold up the process by refusing to give

:16:19.:16:23.

consent to the changes if a majority of MSPs decide they are unhappy with

:16:24.:16:27.

the extensive EU powers handed over to Edinburgh. If Westminster

:16:28.:16:33.

attempts to use the Great Repeal Bill as a power grab to take away

:16:34.:16:40.

from Hollywood powers that are already devolved, we will have a

:16:41.:16:43.

constitutional crisis and there is no way the constitutional Scottish

:16:44.:16:48.

Parliament would give consent to having powers taken away from it. As

:16:49.:16:54.

he drafts the historic legislation, David Davis is making clear he will

:16:55.:16:58.

abide by the convention that gives the devolved bodies say but the

:16:59.:17:04.

Brexit Secretary will issue a blunt warning to Holyrood- if you stand on

:17:05.:17:07.

the way you may make Scotland and possibly the UK ungovernable. Nick

:17:08.:17:17.

Watt. And that got stuck in the middle. And Nick Watt was not Nick

:17:18.:17:18.

Clegg! Sorry about that! Well, should the Remainers

:17:19.:17:25.

try to block the Great Reform Bill, Or is it time to accept

:17:26.:17:27.

the referendum result and move on. Within the Remainer community, there

:17:28.:17:32.

is something of a divide on that. Last night on this programme,

:17:33.:17:35.

you might have seen Lord Heseltine, Tim Farron says there'll be

:17:36.:17:38.

a "legislative war". But there are those with their views

:17:39.:17:43.

of Brexit, who believe Let's both sides

:17:44.:17:45.

of that argument now. Joining me is Labour

:17:46.:17:51.

MP Chris Leslie, who's a supporter of Open Britain,

:17:52.:17:53.

the group that came out of the Their former Deputy Director

:17:54.:17:56.

was Lucy Thomas, who also joins us. She is now working at PR firm

:17:57.:18:04.

Edelman, advising businesses on how Good evening. Lucy, you are running

:18:05.:18:15.

the campaign at the top of the campaign, where are you on what we

:18:16.:18:20.

should be doing about Brexit? Firstly, I'm still emotional about

:18:21.:18:24.

it, even the sight of Theresa May with that letter did make me cry,

:18:25.:18:28.

frankly. I am still emotional and disappointed. However, I think the

:18:29.:18:36.

question is, what we do it that is constructive? For me, that is about

:18:37.:18:40.

being constructive, coming up with solutions to the problem and working

:18:41.:18:45.

together to find the right deal and that means businesses, thinking

:18:46.:18:49.

about what they would like out of a final negotiation, for example, how

:18:50.:18:53.

would they replace the current free movement rules and what they want

:18:54.:18:58.

from a trade deal? And legislative war, trying to block by

:18:59.:19:03.

Parliamentary tactics, the so-called Great Repeal Bill, that is not the

:19:04.:19:07.

way to about this? The Leave campaign wanted to take back control

:19:08.:19:13.

for Parliament and they wanted more sovereignty so I think Parliament

:19:14.:19:17.

has a huge role in scrutinising the process and making sure it is as

:19:18.:19:21.

good as possible, but where I do not agree with some people on the tenth

:19:22.:19:28.

one side, people like Lily Allen, she tweeted this week saying every

:19:29.:19:31.

bill in this country and every missed opportunity and every job

:19:32.:19:37.

lost, but is down to Brexit and this name-calling... Chris, do you think

:19:38.:19:46.

the Lib Dems or Remainers should use the Great Repeal Bill as a way of

:19:47.:19:52.

holding the government, obstructing Brexit? I do not think we can

:19:53.:19:59.

obstruct the outcome of the referendum but there are so many

:20:00.:20:03.

consequences that flow from Britain's exit and divorce from EU

:20:04.:20:07.

that we have a responsibility to not just hold the government to account

:20:08.:20:12.

but hold the Leave campaign to account for those massive promises

:20:13.:20:16.

they made and it is not just a vote at the end in 2019... What is your

:20:17.:20:23.

objective? When we find we will not get ?350 million every week to the

:20:24.:20:30.

NHS, apart from pointing out that is not an exact representation of what

:20:31.:20:33.

the situation was, what do you hope to do when you say you want to

:20:34.:20:39.

expose and hold them to the things they said in the campaign? For those

:20:40.:20:43.

of us who take a world view about Brexit rather than this having the

:20:44.:20:50.

moon on a stick, that view, we have to walk through with the public and

:20:51.:20:55.

the business community and the wider economy, the consequences of making

:20:56.:20:59.

this major decision, it might be that over time there is space for

:21:00.:21:03.

people to change their opinion about these things. We're talking about

:21:04.:21:07.

not just two years but possibly multiple years... What are you

:21:08.:21:13.

trying to achieve? To reverse it or change it or watch? Or just get in

:21:14.:21:18.

the way? I am on the centre-left, I want to fight. I might watch? Five

:21:19.:21:25.

years of Alliance building and reaching out to our neighbours to

:21:26.:21:30.

defence trade and living standards. It is talking about a special and

:21:31.:21:34.

steep partnership. Unfortunately, because we had from the Leave

:21:35.:21:40.

campaign, they will be unable to fulfil that cost free divorce,

:21:41.:21:46.

making major savings, preserving the union, no problems in Northern

:21:47.:21:50.

Ireland, Scotland will be integrated with the UK, migration levels will

:21:51.:21:54.

fall and be here right now they will not even promised that. We have to

:21:55.:21:57.

hold them to account when they have been breaking promises and secondly,

:21:58.:22:03.

show people that there is actually a need for integration across Europe

:22:04.:22:10.

and those are the close partners. Is that a coherent approach, Lucy?

:22:11.:22:15.

Ultimately, it comes down to what your tactics are and your objective

:22:16.:22:19.

at the end of it. The objective is key. What was interesting in the

:22:20.:22:26.

letter yesterday was there were quite a few significant climb-downs,

:22:27.:22:30.

the ECJ, there could be jurisdiction, we will end up paying

:22:31.:22:35.

up to ?50 billion but we will see what the final figure is. On free

:22:36.:22:40.

movement, it will not perhaps be as hard as we have been told so for me,

:22:41.:22:45.

we have to wait and see more. I don't think jumping on every piece

:22:46.:22:49.

of rhetoric is the answer, Theresa May had to be very hard line but

:22:50.:22:53.

when it comes to the letters and the details, she will be pragmatic. I

:22:54.:22:58.

don't think we should give up on the single market altogether, there is

:22:59.:23:01.

potential to reform the single market, with a different government

:23:02.:23:04.

we could have reformed that migration colour. Today, we heard

:23:05.:23:11.

from David Davis. In legal terms, we are still in the European Economic

:23:12.:23:17.

Area, which is the single market. Parliament has not voted to leave.

:23:18.:23:22.

We might have a vote on that. We might need to still be in the single

:23:23.:23:26.

market during the transitional period and I will fight to preserve

:23:27.:23:32.

those benefits of membership and am disappointed with people who have

:23:33.:23:39.

given up on that. You want to stay in the single market. Will you have

:23:40.:23:44.

a legislative war to kind of get in the way of Theresa May's version? Or

:23:45.:23:52.

will you be constructive? There is a moderate majority in the House of

:23:53.:23:54.

Commons that believes in a pragmatic approach to European alliances and

:23:55.:24:00.

there might be a sizeable number of quite hard Brexiteers to the right

:24:01.:24:05.

of Theresa May but actually the rest of us should set that and in all of

:24:06.:24:09.

those foods we have in the House of Commons, we can provide a space for

:24:10.:24:12.

a sensible approach from the Prime Minister and she has to make copper

:24:13.:24:16.

rises to preserve the alliances, that is do what we can to preserve

:24:17.:24:21.

them. Thank you both very much. -- compromises.

:24:22.:24:22.

We'll take a short break now, for Viewsnight.

:24:23.:24:24.

Tonight, Myriam Francois looks at religion, dress

:24:25.:24:27.

Imposing neutral clothing is just discrimination in disguise.

:24:28.:24:37.

If I come to work wearing a headscarf or a face veil

:24:38.:24:41.

or a cross or a hoodie or dress head to toe in tweed and a flat

:24:42.:24:46.

Our clothing speaks to our background, our class and our ideals

:24:47.:24:54.

and I would argue that all of those are political.

:24:55.:24:58.

A recent European Court of Justice ruling upheld that workplaces

:24:59.:25:01.

with a so-called neutrality policy were within their right to ban items

:25:02.:25:04.

they thought weren't neutral, such as a cross or a head scarf.

:25:05.:25:10.

For some, enforcing political and religious neutrality is key

:25:11.:25:12.

But for others, it's just discrimination dressed

:25:13.:25:17.

Neutrality is what is normal for the majority of people.

:25:18.:25:25.

In white, secular Europe, neutrality reflects the norms

:25:26.:25:30.

If we think of religiosity as a spectrum from areligious

:25:31.:25:34.

to religious, no single position on that spectrum is any more

:25:35.:25:38.

Dressing in a way that is areligious is just as political or just

:25:39.:25:45.

as neutral as dressing with religious markers.

:25:46.:25:48.

Either way, you are saying something with your appearance.

:25:49.:25:50.

That is the very basis of advertising.

:25:51.:25:55.

Are slogan T-shirts, which are all the rage,

:25:56.:25:56.

What about dreadlocks or wearing a red or blue tie?

:25:57.:26:01.

What about wearing your Afro hair natural or choosing rainbow

:26:02.:26:04.

It crystallises a vision of what is normal and is used

:26:05.:26:11.

to erase the differences that bother us.

:26:12.:26:15.

Banning the headscarf at work, which - let's face it -

:26:16.:26:18.

is what most conversations about neutrality in Europe

:26:19.:26:21.

are all about, cannot be separated from broader discussions

:26:22.:26:25.

about Muslims as a problem community.

:26:26.:26:29.

Neutrality is being used to marginalise identities that don't

:26:30.:26:31.

fit the myth of secular progress and that is just

:26:32.:26:34.

We've looked at the Great Repeal Bill, and its Henry VIII

:26:35.:26:50.

clauses; but that is not the only constitutional challenge facing us.

:26:51.:26:52.

There is a potential second Scottish independence referendum.

:26:53.:26:54.

Nicola Sturgeon wants to keep a Scottish link to the EU.

:26:55.:26:57.

And therein lies a second Tudor analogy.

:26:58.:27:00.

In the 1540s - after England had broken with Rome -

:27:01.:27:04.

the Scottish court was divided between those who wanted to follow

:27:05.:27:08.

England and those loyal to the 'auld alliance' with the French.

:27:09.:27:11.

So Henry VIII sent an army up to Edinburgh to 'woo' the Scots over

:27:12.:27:15.

Allan Little's been taking a look at the war of the Rough Wooing,

:27:16.:27:20.

History seeps from every soot black rock of this old capital.

:27:21.:27:27.

When England broke with Rome in the 1530s, the Brexit

:27:28.:27:32.

of the Tudor age, Henry VIII sent an invading army to Edinburgh

:27:33.:27:35.

to try to keep Scotland on his side, rather than Europe's.

:27:36.:27:39.

The English army landed down there at the Port of Leith

:27:40.:27:42.

and advanced up this road in vast numbers, laying waste

:27:43.:27:44.

to the neighbouring borough of Canongate.

:27:45.:27:47.

And when they breached the city walls, they destroyed much

:27:48.:27:50.

of the ancient medieval heart of Edinburgh.

:27:51.:27:52.

They wanted to wrest power away from those factions in Scottish

:27:53.:27:57.

society that favoured alliances with the French and hand it to those

:27:58.:28:00.

who wanted to draw Scotland into the English fold.

:28:01.:28:07.

That Anglo-Scottish war came to be known as the Rough Wooing.

:28:08.:28:11.

Scotland is, once again, torn between factions.

:28:12.:28:14.

The wooing of the Scots has changed a bit since

:28:15.:28:20.

England pours all manner of resources into it

:28:21.:28:27.

when they arrive with a huge fleet and then sends thousands of men up

:28:28.:28:31.

They turn up with artillery weapons, then you have a situation

:28:32.:28:34.

where parts of the town are actually set on fire.

:28:35.:28:37.

There is huge damage done to the Canongate.

:28:38.:28:40.

You have damage done to Holyrood Palace and Holyrood Abbey.

:28:41.:28:43.

So it is attacking a lot of the heart of the Kingdom of Scotland.

:28:44.:28:51.

Theresa May's approach to wooing the Scots needs to be a bit more

:28:52.:28:54.

But the aim is, in essence, the same.

:28:55.:28:57.

To keep Scotland on board, to make sure that pro-union sentiment

:28:58.:29:00.

So, in the mid-16th century, you have Scotland divided

:29:01.:29:07.

in its loyalties between alliance with England and a

:29:08.:29:10.

And I think in both cases you have Scots not necessarily being totally

:29:11.:29:17.

Edinburgh's architecture celebrates the age when commitment

:29:18.:29:25.

England and Scotland joined in the great enterprise

:29:26.:29:31.

of Britishness, and often a Britishness that stood

:29:32.:29:33.

against the perceived menace of continental Europe.

:29:34.:29:38.

There have been tensions before between these two

:29:39.:29:40.

The country's sense of its Britishness and its European-ness.

:29:41.:29:46.

Until recently, it could quite happily be both.

:29:47.:29:48.

A second referendum will bring that tension to the fore and confront

:29:49.:29:53.

Which would you rather be - British or European?

:29:54.:30:02.

The Port of Leith, where that English army landed,

:30:03.:30:07.

was once Scotland's great gateway to trade with Europe.

:30:08.:30:10.

Before the union, when Scotland turned west to the wide open seas

:30:11.:30:12.

But Scotland voted 62% to stay in Europe.

:30:13.:30:17.

Many see that as a chance to forge a new place in the world

:30:18.:30:21.

It seems as if England is on a self-destruct path

:30:22.:30:25.

and because it is the largest part of the UK population,

:30:26.:30:29.

it is determined to bring everyone with it.

:30:30.:30:32.

We talked a lot in the first referendum about Scotland having

:30:33.:30:35.

a distinctive political culture and an awful lot of

:30:36.:30:38.

The second they saw that 62%, they saw it.

:30:39.:30:43.

But only 45% voted for independence in 2014 and about a third of them

:30:44.:30:47.

There are dangers from Nicola Sturgeon in tying the case

:30:48.:30:55.

for independence too closely to the case for Europe.

:30:56.:30:59.

Of course, there are people within Scotland and within the independence

:31:00.:31:02.

movement who don't like the idea of Europe one iota.

:31:03.:31:05.

There has to be more drive and focus and progressive thinking

:31:06.:31:12.

Denmark, Finland, Scotland, Sweden - a row of little, independent

:31:13.:31:16.

northern states, determined to break up that hegemony of

:31:17.:31:19.

But how entrenched is Scotland's European identity?

:31:20.:31:29.

The age demographics don't look good for the union.

:31:30.:31:31.

Polls show the young tend to favour independence

:31:32.:31:34.

At Leith Academy, 36 languages are spoken.

:31:35.:31:39.

Tomorrow's voters have multiple, overlapping, sometimes

:31:40.:31:41.

I would probably go for European because I grew up with a lot

:31:42.:31:47.

I just feel like I am more European than I would say I am British.

:31:48.:31:57.

Harry, if it came to a choice between being European or being

:31:58.:32:00.

Do you see a tension between the values that Britain

:32:01.:32:10.

represents and the values that Scotland represents?

:32:11.:32:13.

Because I always feel like there has been a big tension between Scotland

:32:14.:32:20.

and England and I would identify myself more with Scottish

:32:21.:32:22.

I think we have completely different values.

:32:23.:32:26.

To be British represents being an imperialistic,

:32:27.:32:33.

capitalist, unfair society where people don't matter.

:32:34.:32:34.

Whereas in Scotland, we are more equal and we are inclusive

:32:35.:32:37.

and we care about trying to help each other and trying

:32:38.:32:40.

to make everyone better, not just the people at the top.

:32:41.:32:47.

I am British and I think I have hit into the culture down in England

:32:48.:32:51.

But if Brexit makes Scots inclined more to a European world

:32:52.:32:59.

view, it also changes the independence proposition.

:33:00.:33:01.

The prospect of a hard border across the island of Britain.

:33:02.:33:09.

Jim Gallaher was a senior civil servant who has worked for decades

:33:10.:33:13.

on relations between Scotland and Westminster and was

:33:14.:33:15.

a leading thinker in the pro-union camp in 2014.

:33:16.:33:22.

Outside the single market, and if the UK is outside

:33:23.:33:25.

the Customs Union, you are talking about some form of border control

:33:26.:33:28.

and some substantial restriction on trade

:33:29.:33:29.

And since England is by far Scotland's biggest market,

:33:30.:33:38.

the economic effects of that are very real.

:33:39.:33:41.

Not to mention, even, potentially the effects

:33:42.:33:43.

He needs no wooing from London, rough or otherwise.

:33:44.:33:49.

Like Scotland itself, he voted to stay in both unions.

:33:50.:33:52.

But he is clear about which matters more.

:33:53.:33:54.

What it does do for the proponents of independence is give them

:33:55.:33:58.

The English are different from us, they say.

:33:59.:34:03.

Well, I rather suspect that in the long run,

:34:04.:34:06.

the English are really much more like us than we are like

:34:07.:34:08.

Henry VIII's English army made it this far,

:34:09.:34:15.

But the castle held out and Scotland stayed, for now,

:34:16.:34:19.

The English went home to work out why burning down the capital city

:34:20.:34:26.

didn't win them the friendship of the Scots.

:34:27.:34:28.

That phrase, "Rough Wooing", comes from a comment attributed

:34:29.:34:30.

to the fourth Earl of Huntley, who said of the English...

:34:31.:34:35.

"We did not like the manner of their wooing and could not stoop

:34:36.:34:38.

That theme runs through Scottish history like a thread

:34:39.:34:42.

The union has been at its strongest when Scotland has felt concrete

:34:43.:34:51.

reason to love the shared enterprise of Britishness, whatever

:34:52.:34:53.

It has been at its weakest when England, through sheer

:34:54.:35:00.

superiority of numbers, has felt entitled to impose

:35:01.:35:02.

on Scotland something Scotland has rejected.

:35:03.:35:06.

England and Scotland married in the end and the marriage has

:35:07.:35:08.

But they are leading increasingly separate lives these days,

:35:09.:35:13.

The manner of that wooing could determine

:35:14.:35:20.

Among Trump-haters, Ivanka Trump has sometimes caused a kind

:35:21.:35:33.

She's a Trump, so should be hated, and yet she seems like a good

:35:34.:35:39.

She seems more liberal - in the election campaign,

:35:40.:35:43.

she championed childcare as an issue.

:35:44.:35:46.

She comes across as a strong woman in the team, she was appropriately

:35:47.:35:50.

disapproving of her father's remarks on that coach about grabbing women.

:35:51.:35:53.

And she seems to have struck up a friendship with Justin Trudeau -

:35:54.:35:56.

Well, what to make of the fact that Ivanka now has a formal role

:35:57.:36:02.

She did have that role informally, but the arrangement was criticised,

:36:03.:36:11.

it was seen as too powerful a position not

:36:12.:36:13.

to be properly governed by the rules of employees.

:36:14.:36:15.

But still some will say Ivanka's role is nepotism in action.

:36:16.:36:18.

Others might say it is inevitable that

:36:19.:36:20.

presidents will use family as trusted advisors.

:36:21.:36:22.

Let's talk to Doug Wead, who was a special assistant

:36:23.:36:24.

to President George Bush Snr and has written extensively

:36:25.:36:26.

Very good evening to you. How often have president is given a proper

:36:27.:36:37.

role, former or informal, to close members of family? All through

:36:38.:36:43.

American history. I counted about 18 or 19, depending on how you define

:36:44.:36:49.

them, and daughters who have had very powerful roles in their

:36:50.:36:53.

father's White House. And you were there when George Bush senior

:36:54.:37:02.

implied his son in the White House. -- employed. He was not in the White

:37:03.:37:06.

House, he was in the campaign but we talked about that a lot and that was

:37:07.:37:11.

why I began my study of presidential children. He came into the middle of

:37:12.:37:14.

his father's campaign and what I learned is that even the White

:37:15.:37:19.

House, if you make a decision and you are wrong, you get fired. If you

:37:20.:37:23.

make a decision and you are right, you make everybody mad and you do

:37:24.:37:27.

not get credit for it anyway, the credit goes up, so no one makes

:37:28.:37:30.

decisions. The governments are present in this case the campaign

:37:31.:37:35.

suffered. When George W Bush came into the campaign on March of 1987,

:37:36.:37:39.

he made decisions, and it transformed the campaign. And I

:37:40.:37:46.

wondered, how will his father be president of the United States

:37:47.:37:48.

without his son in the White House with him? And I believe that if he

:37:49.:37:52.

had gone in the White House with him, George HW Bush would have been

:37:53.:37:56.

re-elected and George W Bush would not have become president. History

:37:57.:37:59.

would have been very different. There is something a bit nepotistic

:38:00.:38:03.

in there, that corrupt. The president of Congo would the idea

:38:04.:38:07.

will stop I picked Congo at random. Appointing sons or daughters, it is

:38:08.:38:12.

not what you think of advanced Western societies doing as a way of

:38:13.:38:19.

running themselves, is it? They have been doing it from the beginning.

:38:20.:38:23.

George Adams was the secretary to his father and Martin Van Buren

:38:24.:38:29.

appointed his son as secretary. All the way through history. When he is

:38:30.:38:34.

one of his father's bodyguard and secretary and a fractal Chief of

:38:35.:38:40.

Staff. Anna Roosevelt ran the White House in FDR's last year of power.

:38:41.:38:46.

It was inevitable, because they need loyalty. That is the most important

:38:47.:38:49.

loyalty in the White House. And they need honesty. A lot of people will

:38:50.:38:53.

not tell the president what he needs to hear but a son or daughter will.

:38:54.:38:57.

And they need someone who will make decisions. And they cannot be fired,

:38:58.:39:02.

the son or daughter. What you think of it like a Trump? -- what do you

:39:03.:39:13.

think of Ivanka Trump. I wrote a book called Game of Thorns and

:39:14.:39:16.

predicted that he would call on her and she would become powerful in

:39:17.:39:21.

this White House. I have been an adviser in this White House and I

:39:22.:39:26.

see this young lady as capable and talented. It is not about balancing

:39:27.:39:30.

the politics, it is about the need for loyalty and competence and

:39:31.:39:35.

continuity. She cannot be fired as daughter. She can be fired in that

:39:36.:39:39.

position but she will come back to the dinner table, so if you give

:39:40.:39:44.

information, she becomes part of the plan and there is continuity. That

:39:45.:39:47.

will last and a lot of these leaders are around Trump will be gone in a

:39:48.:39:56.

few years, but a backdrop will stay. -- but Ivanka Trump will stay. They

:39:57.:39:58.

give very much. From tomorrow visitors

:39:59.:40:00.

to the Naval College in Greenwich will get a rare opportunity to get

:40:01.:40:02.

a close up view of the ceiling of its famous 'Painted Hall' -

:40:03.:40:05.

the lavish centre piece at the heart It's been described as the UK's

:40:06.:40:08.

Sistine Chapel and over the next two years, conservators will be

:40:09.:40:17.

restoring the work - We leave you tonight

:40:18.:40:19.

with the College's conservation director William Palin -

:40:20.:40:22.

on why the ceiling is so important. We're standing beneath this

:40:23.:40:25.

extraordinary painted ceiling, the greatest work

:40:26.:40:57.

of English baroque art. This is the largest painted

:40:58.:40:59.

ceiling in northern Europe. I think it's very hard

:41:00.:41:01.

to find anything to compare I suppose 'the Sistine Chapel

:41:02.:41:04.

of Britain' conveys something of the scale and magnificence

:41:05.:41:07.

of this interior. And the idea was always

:41:08.:41:09.

that this room would dazzle and amaze and overwhelm,

:41:10.:41:12.

so visitors would arrive here, look up, see this amazing

:41:13.:41:14.

ceiling and then think, "hmm, I'll leave some money

:41:15.:41:16.

for the foundation to help This was Britain's response

:41:17.:41:18.

to European culture, saying, "We can do this

:41:19.:41:21.

as well, if not better We have a baroque decorative scheme

:41:22.:41:23.

celebrating the Protestant monarchy and we have a building

:41:24.:41:27.

of unparalleled magnificence. After today's warmth,

:41:28.:41:53.

it's going to be a very A little rain could wander

:41:54.:41:57.

into eastern parts of England for a while but most of the wet

:41:58.:42:01.

weather is further west and it is tracking its way away

:42:02.:42:04.

from Wales and Northern Ireland, So we're going to have a window

:42:05.:42:08.

around the middle part of the day,

:42:09.:42:12.

With Evan Davis. Including an interview with the German defence minister and a look at the Repeal Bill. Plus Myriam Francois on dress codes, Henry VIII and Scottish independence, and Ivanka Trump in the White House.


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