Browse content similar to 30/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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We're getting our independence from the EU, which means the EU | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
The German defence minister tell us they're thinking | :00:07. | :00:17. | |
It is true that our British friends were not enthusiastic about the | :00:18. | :00:27. | |
Meanwhile Brexit is underway on all fronts - | :00:28. | :00:30. | |
with new plans to change EU law into UK law today. | :00:31. | :00:35. | |
We'll rehearse the debate among Remainers as to whether to carry | :00:36. | :00:37. | |
on fighting Brexit, or to accept the referendum result. | :00:38. | :00:43. | |
We are in Scotland to hear how it's not the first time the country's | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
found itself making a choice between its neighbours. | :00:47. | :00:48. | |
There have been tensions before between these two | :00:49. | :00:50. | |
The country's sense of its Britishness and its Europeanness. | :00:51. | :01:00. | |
Until recently it could quite happily be both, but not any more. | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
Ivanka Trump - not the First Lady but probably the most powerful | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
Is it right that she now sits at the top | :01:08. | :01:15. | |
It's going to be a two year marathon, | :01:16. | :01:28. | |
not a two week sprint, so it's hard to know how much weight | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
we should be putting on the reactions of other European | :01:32. | :01:33. | |
leaders on Day 2, to Theresa May's letter triggering Article 50. | :01:34. | :01:40. | |
but the words imply that the EU wants to stick to its procedures | :01:41. | :01:48. | |
Dominating European politics at the moment is the centre right | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
It's called the European People's Party, and it's enjoying a two-day | :01:54. | :01:59. | |
The German Chancellor Angela Merkel is there, as is the European | :02:00. | :02:03. | |
Commission President, Jean Claude Juncker, | :02:04. | :02:04. | |
and Brexit of course, among the topics being talked about. | :02:05. | :02:10. | |
I wish to say here that Brexit is of everything. We must consider it to | :02:11. | :02:22. | |
be a new beginning, something that is stronger, something that is | :02:23. | :02:29. | |
better. If Jean-Claude Juncker's view there. | :02:30. | :02:30. | |
So much for the set-piece statements. | :02:31. | :02:32. | |
Perhaps it is better to step away from the platform speeches, | :02:33. | :02:34. | |
and to focus on more specific areas and at more length. | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
To that end, let's go to Berlin, because our diplomatic editor | :02:38. | :02:39. | |
Mark Urban is there, and he has been speaking | :02:40. | :02:42. | |
I know you have been speaking about a number of different things but in | :02:43. | :02:50. | |
particular, just the issue of the German attitudes towards the Article | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
50 talks. What have you been hearing? Well, the fascinating | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
thing, being here at this particular time, is watching German politicians | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
processing the way that the departure of the UK, which they | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
hoped wouldn't happen, is going to change the geometry, the balance of | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
power on all sorts of issues within the EU. They will end up almost | :03:13. | :03:15. | |
certainly paying more into the budget. We don't like the idea that | :03:16. | :03:21. | |
it -- they don't like the idea that it will even out differences in | :03:22. | :03:23. | |
wealth with them being net contributors. They can see some | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
positives and on the issue of European defence policy, that could | :03:28. | :03:30. | |
be one because obviously the British were standing in the way of that in | :03:31. | :03:38. | |
many areas. But what a moment to sit down with the possible successor to | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
Chancellor Merkel. She is the defence minister and we started | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
talking about the issues of the moment and what she made of | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
Britain's attempt, apparently, to use security as a bargaining chip. I | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
do not expect that we're going to Bagan with security topics because | :04:00. | :04:07. | |
it is in our mutual interests to exchange information and necessary. | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
-- I do not expect that we are going to Bagan. It is vital for the two of | :04:13. | :04:19. | |
us. It is about trade and the common market and those are the important | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
things. What is your view about the sequence of this? Can be no real | :04:25. | :04:27. | |
discussion about the wider relationship until it has been | :04:28. | :04:30. | |
settled that the UK will make a contribution on the budget? Well, I | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
have a different approach because at the beginning we said there would be | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
no negotiations before Article 50 has been pulled. This happened | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
yesterday. Then the experts will go into negotiations and one thing is | :04:49. | :04:54. | |
clear, the new contract, the new deal will only be signed once | :04:55. | :04:57. | |
everything has been negotiated. You cannot take bits and pieces apart | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
and close them and go further on other topics. So the whole deal will | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
be visible at the very end, but there is nothing, I think, that we | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
should not speak of openly and addressed directly. How important is | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
it, in that context, that the UK pay its Bill? People have talked about | :05:20. | :05:26. | |
up to 60 billion euros in contributions up to 2020. Of course, | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
as long as the UK is a member of the European Union, you have to meet the | :05:32. | :05:41. | |
contracts, but what that is, at the very end and at the beginning, day | :05:42. | :05:48. | |
one two after the letter has been brought to Brussels, I think we | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
should look at it calmly, and really sort out what is with the membership | :05:52. | :05:58. | |
that has to be paid for, and what is in the negotiation pot which is | :05:59. | :06:06. | |
another topic. You and your British counterparts working on a new | :06:07. | :06:12. | |
defence joint vision, what can we expect from that? Michael Fallon and | :06:13. | :06:20. | |
me, and we want to improve and strengthen the British German | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
military cooperation. That is why we are working on a joint vision, a | :06:25. | :06:30. | |
bilateral thing for the future, how we can improve cooperation with the | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
Armed Forces here, the Maritime forces for example. Exchanging | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
officers, going into training, having common capability | :06:42. | :06:44. | |
developments, things like that. How important is it to get big European | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
dimension of defence right at this particular time? Is the American | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
guarantee is becoming less credible for want of a better word? There | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
were a lot of worries on the European side when we heard | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
contradictory tones from the White House. Saying that it was obsolete, | :07:04. | :07:10. | |
that Nato was great. It was not easy at the beginning. What it triggered | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
was two things. First of all, the question, can we rely on Nato, and | :07:17. | :07:23. | |
today I say, firmly two more firmly than ever, this weekend. On the | :07:24. | :07:29. | |
other hand, the contradictory statements from the White House may | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
give the impression to the Europeans that we have to get our own act | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
together. Crudely, and be blunt, does the UK going make it easier for | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
you to get your act together at the EU level? Because Britain was | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
blocking a lot of this. It is true that our British friends were not | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
enthusiastic about the European security and defence union. Once | :07:54. | :08:00. | |
again, I think it is a pity that the UK is leaving. But it is a fact. And | :08:01. | :08:08. | |
what pushed the European idea forward was more what we heard from | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
the White House after the American election. There have been a lot of | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
reports about the meeting the Chancellor Merkel had. Is it true | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
that President Trump give her a bill for the American defence of Germany? | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
It is not true. But we have all seen the tweet. That presumably Germany | :08:27. | :08:37. | |
owes Nato vast sums of money. But we all know that Nato does not have | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
that account. But you think you can get to the 2% of GDP that it? | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
Absolutely. Because smaller countries, the Baltic states for | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
example, work hard on reaching this 2% goal, two, and nobody would | :08:53. | :08:59. | |
understand that better than a country like Germany, who is | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
determined to have a certain relevance in economic terms, and | :09:05. | :09:10. | |
will not shy away from taking over the amount of responsibility that is | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
necessary in security matters. The 2% goal, it is also a symbol for the | :09:15. | :09:23. | |
resolve to take a fair share of the burden. And we need it. Lastly, I | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
wanted to ask you about Chancellor Merkel. You are one of the very few | :09:29. | :09:31. | |
ministers who has been there right since the beginning with her. | :09:32. | :09:39. | |
Shoulder to shoulder. Did you think, for example during the refugee | :09:40. | :09:42. | |
crisis, I do not think she is going to make it, this is too big? During | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
the refugee crisis, I never doubted that she would make it, because as | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
you said, I was working very closely with her. The problem was that | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
within a few weeks we had to give a very complex answer on how to end | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
this influx of refugees, and when you start to give them an answer | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
that begins in Syria and Iraq and goes through Turkey, to Germany and | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
the local communities, and people go, please, give us a quick answer | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
but don't tell us this long story. Well, it is different now after two | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
years, so the long story now has been learned, and understood, and | :10:20. | :10:27. | |
therefore the confidence and trust is again, that the Chancellor is | :10:28. | :10:36. | |
leading us safely through those very difficult times. Thank you very | :10:37. | :10:45. | |
much, Minister. Mark Urban talking to Ursula von der Leyen, the German | :10:46. | :10:47. | |
defence minister. Meanwhile, we got more detail | :10:48. | :10:48. | |
on the gargantuan task of turning EU There are thousands of pieces | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
of European legislation, the idea is that one new act | :10:52. | :10:54. | |
of Parliament transposes The Great Repeal Bill, | :10:55. | :10:57. | |
as it is referred to now, and it cuts through the impossible | :10:58. | :11:03. | |
task of taking the laws Some of the laws need cleaning up, | :11:04. | :11:05. | |
so the government wants ministers to have the power to re-write | :11:06. | :11:16. | |
bits of them. These are called Henry VIII powers | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
as the egoistical king gave himself exactly | :11:20. | :11:21. | |
that law-making authority. Everybody recognises that some | :11:22. | :11:22. | |
delegated authority will be needed but you can't give completely | :11:23. | :11:29. | |
free reign to ministers. Our political editor | :11:30. | :11:37. | |
Nick Watt is with me. What do you take from today? Over | :11:38. | :11:45. | |
the last 48 hours we have seen the fruits of some careful planning | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
meant to tell the public that we are leading the European Union and that | :11:51. | :11:53. | |
the government has a credible plan to do it. Yesterday, as you were | :11:54. | :11:59. | |
saying, essentially what David Davis was saying is that the UK will land | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
in a legal safe zone on the day after we leave. But interestingly, | :12:05. | :12:07. | |
there is a debate going on in the Conservative Party on that point. | :12:08. | :12:10. | |
You were mentioning the incorporation of all that EU law | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
into UK law. Some of the old guard of Tory Eurosceptics are saying, you | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
know what we want to do with that legislation, we want to get rid of | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
it because Brexit has liberated the UK to be a more liberal economy, but | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
some of the younger guard, in the highly influential European research | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
group, the influential group of Brexiteers, they are saying hold | :12:33. | :12:34. | |
your horses, one step at a time, let's just focus on Brexit, and what | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
we might want to repeal, let's think about after the next election. So | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
what that means is that there is going to be quite a debate on what | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
you should have in the Conservative manifesto for the next election. So | :12:49. | :12:51. | |
look, here is what I have picked up today. | :12:52. | :12:58. | |
It has been dubbed a Briton's greatest peacetime challenge. Today | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
the government of the first steps to ensure that the UK leads you on a | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
sound legal footing, although the grand title was slightly downgraded. | :13:09. | :13:16. | |
First up, the scrapping of the legislation that took us into the | :13:17. | :13:25. | |
EEC in the first place. Once that has been struck down, the government | :13:26. | :13:28. | |
will incorporate the entire body of EU law into UK law. And then we will | :13:29. | :13:38. | |
see the return of England's favourite rotund monarch. As various | :13:39. | :13:46. | |
EU regulations are tweaked around 1000 times. This will be done | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
through a fast-track route with light Parliamentary scrutiny, known | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
as the Henry VIII clauses. And then we will see the return of England's | :13:56. | :14:03. | |
favourite rotund monarch. Various EU regulations will be tweaked around | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
1000 times and this will be done through a fast-track route with | :14:10. | :14:11. | |
light Parliamentary scrutiny known as the Henry VIII clauses. For | :14:12. | :14:17. | |
veteran Eurosceptics, this is a moment of liberation. Can I thank my | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
right honourable friend for making it clear that two years from today, | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
our sovereign parliament will indeed have the power to amend, repeal or | :14:29. | :14:31. | |
improve all of this ghastly EU legislation. | :14:32. | :14:40. | |
Downing Street is acutely conscious of the political sensitivities of | :14:41. | :14:48. | |
scrapping workers' rights such reason they wants to even enhance | :14:49. | :14:51. | |
them but as for other rights, Number 10 says, let us focus on Brexit and | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
leave that debate until the next election. It is fundamentally | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
important we have robust workers' rights, we have to protect workers | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
and we also heard ministers say that where we can we want to build on | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
that and make progress, we have often been at the forefront of that | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
work in the EU and in my constituency I work very closely | :15:15. | :15:17. | |
with the unions and I want to see a constructive debate in this country | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
about all of these different policy areas and come up with a set of | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
policies, we must get this right. In the heart of government there are | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
far greater nerves about the next step, the looming Parliamentary | :15:31. | :15:33. | |
battles over what is known as a Great Repeal Bill. Some ministers | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
are warning Theresa May and she may be forced to hold a snap General | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
Election next year if either of the Commons, the House of Lords or the | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
Scottish Parliament succeeds in delaying or even scuppering that | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
bill. In both the House of Commons and House of Lords there is a huge | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
amount of originally and argy-bargy, everything they have done at every | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
turn, not just this bill but way they had to be brought kicking and | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
screaming to accept that Parliament has a role, even if it is an | :16:05. | :16:11. | |
excessively limited role, in determining the final deal and they | :16:12. | :16:14. | |
have done the exact reverse to what they told the country they would do. | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
The Scottish Parliament could hold up the process by refusing to give | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
consent to the changes if a majority of MSPs decide they are unhappy with | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
the extensive EU powers handed over to Edinburgh. If Westminster | :16:28. | :16:33. | |
attempts to use the Great Repeal Bill as a power grab to take away | :16:34. | :16:40. | |
from Hollywood powers that are already devolved, we will have a | :16:41. | :16:43. | |
constitutional crisis and there is no way the constitutional Scottish | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
Parliament would give consent to having powers taken away from it. As | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
he drafts the historic legislation, David Davis is making clear he will | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
abide by the convention that gives the devolved bodies say but the | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
Brexit Secretary will issue a blunt warning to Holyrood- if you stand on | :17:05. | :17:07. | |
the way you may make Scotland and possibly the UK ungovernable. Nick | :17:08. | :17:17. | |
Watt. And that got stuck in the middle. And Nick Watt was not Nick | :17:18. | :17:18. | |
Clegg! Sorry about that! Well, should the Remainers | :17:19. | :17:25. | |
try to block the Great Reform Bill, Or is it time to accept | :17:26. | :17:27. | |
the referendum result and move on. Within the Remainer community, there | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
is something of a divide on that. Last night on this programme, | :17:33. | :17:35. | |
you might have seen Lord Heseltine, Tim Farron says there'll be | :17:36. | :17:38. | |
a "legislative war". But there are those with their views | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
of Brexit, who believe Let's both sides | :17:44. | :17:45. | |
of that argument now. Joining me is Labour | :17:46. | :17:51. | |
MP Chris Leslie, who's a supporter of Open Britain, | :17:52. | :17:53. | |
the group that came out of the Their former Deputy Director | :17:54. | :17:56. | |
was Lucy Thomas, who also joins us. She is now working at PR firm | :17:57. | :18:04. | |
Edelman, advising businesses on how Good evening. Lucy, you are running | :18:05. | :18:15. | |
the campaign at the top of the campaign, where are you on what we | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
should be doing about Brexit? Firstly, I'm still emotional about | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
it, even the sight of Theresa May with that letter did make me cry, | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
frankly. I am still emotional and disappointed. However, I think the | :18:29. | :18:36. | |
question is, what we do it that is constructive? For me, that is about | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
being constructive, coming up with solutions to the problem and working | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
together to find the right deal and that means businesses, thinking | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
about what they would like out of a final negotiation, for example, how | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
would they replace the current free movement rules and what they want | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
from a trade deal? And legislative war, trying to block by | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
Parliamentary tactics, the so-called Great Repeal Bill, that is not the | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
way to about this? The Leave campaign wanted to take back control | :19:08. | :19:13. | |
for Parliament and they wanted more sovereignty so I think Parliament | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
has a huge role in scrutinising the process and making sure it is as | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
good as possible, but where I do not agree with some people on the tenth | :19:22. | :19:28. | |
one side, people like Lily Allen, she tweeted this week saying every | :19:29. | :19:31. | |
bill in this country and every missed opportunity and every job | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
lost, but is down to Brexit and this name-calling... Chris, do you think | :19:38. | :19:46. | |
the Lib Dems or Remainers should use the Great Repeal Bill as a way of | :19:47. | :19:52. | |
holding the government, obstructing Brexit? I do not think we can | :19:53. | :19:59. | |
obstruct the outcome of the referendum but there are so many | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
consequences that flow from Britain's exit and divorce from EU | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
that we have a responsibility to not just hold the government to account | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
but hold the Leave campaign to account for those massive promises | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
they made and it is not just a vote at the end in 2019... What is your | :20:17. | :20:23. | |
objective? When we find we will not get ?350 million every week to the | :20:24. | :20:30. | |
NHS, apart from pointing out that is not an exact representation of what | :20:31. | :20:33. | |
the situation was, what do you hope to do when you say you want to | :20:34. | :20:39. | |
expose and hold them to the things they said in the campaign? For those | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
of us who take a world view about Brexit rather than this having the | :20:44. | :20:50. | |
moon on a stick, that view, we have to walk through with the public and | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
the business community and the wider economy, the consequences of making | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
this major decision, it might be that over time there is space for | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
people to change their opinion about these things. We're talking about | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
not just two years but possibly multiple years... What are you | :21:08. | :21:13. | |
trying to achieve? To reverse it or change it or watch? Or just get in | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
the way? I am on the centre-left, I want to fight. I might watch? Five | :21:19. | :21:25. | |
years of Alliance building and reaching out to our neighbours to | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
defence trade and living standards. It is talking about a special and | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
steep partnership. Unfortunately, because we had from the Leave | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
campaign, they will be unable to fulfil that cost free divorce, | :21:41. | :21:46. | |
making major savings, preserving the union, no problems in Northern | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
Ireland, Scotland will be integrated with the UK, migration levels will | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
fall and be here right now they will not even promised that. We have to | :21:55. | :21:57. | |
hold them to account when they have been breaking promises and secondly, | :21:58. | :22:03. | |
show people that there is actually a need for integration across Europe | :22:04. | :22:10. | |
and those are the close partners. Is that a coherent approach, Lucy? | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
Ultimately, it comes down to what your tactics are and your objective | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
at the end of it. The objective is key. What was interesting in the | :22:20. | :22:26. | |
letter yesterday was there were quite a few significant climb-downs, | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
the ECJ, there could be jurisdiction, we will end up paying | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
up to ?50 billion but we will see what the final figure is. On free | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
movement, it will not perhaps be as hard as we have been told so for me, | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
we have to wait and see more. I don't think jumping on every piece | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
of rhetoric is the answer, Theresa May had to be very hard line but | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
when it comes to the letters and the details, she will be pragmatic. I | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
don't think we should give up on the single market altogether, there is | :22:59. | :23:01. | |
potential to reform the single market, with a different government | :23:02. | :23:04. | |
we could have reformed that migration colour. Today, we heard | :23:05. | :23:11. | |
from David Davis. In legal terms, we are still in the European Economic | :23:12. | :23:17. | |
Area, which is the single market. Parliament has not voted to leave. | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
We might have a vote on that. We might need to still be in the single | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
market during the transitional period and I will fight to preserve | :23:27. | :23:32. | |
those benefits of membership and am disappointed with people who have | :23:33. | :23:39. | |
given up on that. You want to stay in the single market. Will you have | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
a legislative war to kind of get in the way of Theresa May's version? Or | :23:45. | :23:52. | |
will you be constructive? There is a moderate majority in the House of | :23:53. | :23:54. | |
Commons that believes in a pragmatic approach to European alliances and | :23:55. | :24:00. | |
there might be a sizeable number of quite hard Brexiteers to the right | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
of Theresa May but actually the rest of us should set that and in all of | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
those foods we have in the House of Commons, we can provide a space for | :24:10. | :24:12. | |
a sensible approach from the Prime Minister and she has to make copper | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
rises to preserve the alliances, that is do what we can to preserve | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
them. Thank you both very much. -- compromises. | :24:22. | :24:22. | |
We'll take a short break now, for Viewsnight. | :24:23. | :24:24. | |
Tonight, Myriam Francois looks at religion, dress | :24:25. | :24:27. | |
Imposing neutral clothing is just discrimination in disguise. | :24:28. | :24:37. | |
If I come to work wearing a headscarf or a face veil | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
or a cross or a hoodie or dress head to toe in tweed and a flat | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
Our clothing speaks to our background, our class and our ideals | :24:47. | :24:54. | |
and I would argue that all of those are political. | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
A recent European Court of Justice ruling upheld that workplaces | :24:59. | :25:01. | |
with a so-called neutrality policy were within their right to ban items | :25:02. | :25:04. | |
they thought weren't neutral, such as a cross or a head scarf. | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
For some, enforcing political and religious neutrality is key | :25:11. | :25:12. | |
But for others, it's just discrimination dressed | :25:13. | :25:17. | |
Neutrality is what is normal for the majority of people. | :25:18. | :25:25. | |
In white, secular Europe, neutrality reflects the norms | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
If we think of religiosity as a spectrum from areligious | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
to religious, no single position on that spectrum is any more | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
Dressing in a way that is areligious is just as political or just | :25:39. | :25:45. | |
as neutral as dressing with religious markers. | :25:46. | :25:48. | |
Either way, you are saying something with your appearance. | :25:49. | :25:50. | |
That is the very basis of advertising. | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
Are slogan T-shirts, which are all the rage, | :25:56. | :25:56. | |
What about dreadlocks or wearing a red or blue tie? | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
What about wearing your Afro hair natural or choosing rainbow | :26:02. | :26:04. | |
It crystallises a vision of what is normal and is used | :26:05. | :26:11. | |
to erase the differences that bother us. | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
Banning the headscarf at work, which - let's face it - | :26:16. | :26:18. | |
is what most conversations about neutrality in Europe | :26:19. | :26:21. | |
are all about, cannot be separated from broader discussions | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
about Muslims as a problem community. | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
Neutrality is being used to marginalise identities that don't | :26:30. | :26:31. | |
fit the myth of secular progress and that is just | :26:32. | :26:34. | |
We've looked at the Great Repeal Bill, and its Henry VIII | :26:35. | :26:50. | |
clauses; but that is not the only constitutional challenge facing us. | :26:51. | :26:52. | |
There is a potential second Scottish independence referendum. | :26:53. | :26:54. | |
Nicola Sturgeon wants to keep a Scottish link to the EU. | :26:55. | :26:57. | |
And therein lies a second Tudor analogy. | :26:58. | :27:00. | |
In the 1540s - after England had broken with Rome - | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
the Scottish court was divided between those who wanted to follow | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
England and those loyal to the 'auld alliance' with the French. | :27:09. | :27:11. | |
So Henry VIII sent an army up to Edinburgh to 'woo' the Scots over | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
Allan Little's been taking a look at the war of the Rough Wooing, | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
History seeps from every soot black rock of this old capital. | :27:21. | :27:27. | |
When England broke with Rome in the 1530s, the Brexit | :27:28. | :27:32. | |
of the Tudor age, Henry VIII sent an invading army to Edinburgh | :27:33. | :27:35. | |
to try to keep Scotland on his side, rather than Europe's. | :27:36. | :27:39. | |
The English army landed down there at the Port of Leith | :27:40. | :27:42. | |
and advanced up this road in vast numbers, laying waste | :27:43. | :27:44. | |
to the neighbouring borough of Canongate. | :27:45. | :27:47. | |
And when they breached the city walls, they destroyed much | :27:48. | :27:50. | |
of the ancient medieval heart of Edinburgh. | :27:51. | :27:52. | |
They wanted to wrest power away from those factions in Scottish | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
society that favoured alliances with the French and hand it to those | :27:58. | :28:00. | |
who wanted to draw Scotland into the English fold. | :28:01. | :28:07. | |
That Anglo-Scottish war came to be known as the Rough Wooing. | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
Scotland is, once again, torn between factions. | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
The wooing of the Scots has changed a bit since | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
England pours all manner of resources into it | :28:21. | :28:27. | |
when they arrive with a huge fleet and then sends thousands of men up | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
They turn up with artillery weapons, then you have a situation | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
where parts of the town are actually set on fire. | :28:35. | :28:37. | |
There is huge damage done to the Canongate. | :28:38. | :28:40. | |
You have damage done to Holyrood Palace and Holyrood Abbey. | :28:41. | :28:43. | |
So it is attacking a lot of the heart of the Kingdom of Scotland. | :28:44. | :28:51. | |
Theresa May's approach to wooing the Scots needs to be a bit more | :28:52. | :28:54. | |
But the aim is, in essence, the same. | :28:55. | :28:57. | |
To keep Scotland on board, to make sure that pro-union sentiment | :28:58. | :29:00. | |
So, in the mid-16th century, you have Scotland divided | :29:01. | :29:07. | |
in its loyalties between alliance with England and a | :29:08. | :29:10. | |
And I think in both cases you have Scots not necessarily being totally | :29:11. | :29:17. | |
Edinburgh's architecture celebrates the age when commitment | :29:18. | :29:25. | |
England and Scotland joined in the great enterprise | :29:26. | :29:31. | |
of Britishness, and often a Britishness that stood | :29:32. | :29:33. | |
against the perceived menace of continental Europe. | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
There have been tensions before between these two | :29:39. | :29:40. | |
The country's sense of its Britishness and its European-ness. | :29:41. | :29:46. | |
Until recently, it could quite happily be both. | :29:47. | :29:48. | |
A second referendum will bring that tension to the fore and confront | :29:49. | :29:53. | |
Which would you rather be - British or European? | :29:54. | :30:02. | |
The Port of Leith, where that English army landed, | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
was once Scotland's great gateway to trade with Europe. | :30:08. | :30:10. | |
Before the union, when Scotland turned west to the wide open seas | :30:11. | :30:12. | |
But Scotland voted 62% to stay in Europe. | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
Many see that as a chance to forge a new place in the world | :30:18. | :30:21. | |
It seems as if England is on a self-destruct path | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
and because it is the largest part of the UK population, | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
it is determined to bring everyone with it. | :30:30. | :30:32. | |
We talked a lot in the first referendum about Scotland having | :30:33. | :30:35. | |
a distinctive political culture and an awful lot of | :30:36. | :30:38. | |
The second they saw that 62%, they saw it. | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
But only 45% voted for independence in 2014 and about a third of them | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
There are dangers from Nicola Sturgeon in tying the case | :30:48. | :30:55. | |
for independence too closely to the case for Europe. | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
Of course, there are people within Scotland and within the independence | :31:00. | :31:02. | |
movement who don't like the idea of Europe one iota. | :31:03. | :31:05. | |
There has to be more drive and focus and progressive thinking | :31:06. | :31:12. | |
Denmark, Finland, Scotland, Sweden - a row of little, independent | :31:13. | :31:16. | |
northern states, determined to break up that hegemony of | :31:17. | :31:19. | |
But how entrenched is Scotland's European identity? | :31:20. | :31:29. | |
The age demographics don't look good for the union. | :31:30. | :31:31. | |
Polls show the young tend to favour independence | :31:32. | :31:34. | |
At Leith Academy, 36 languages are spoken. | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
Tomorrow's voters have multiple, overlapping, sometimes | :31:40. | :31:41. | |
I would probably go for European because I grew up with a lot | :31:42. | :31:47. | |
I just feel like I am more European than I would say I am British. | :31:48. | :31:57. | |
Harry, if it came to a choice between being European or being | :31:58. | :32:00. | |
Do you see a tension between the values that Britain | :32:01. | :32:10. | |
represents and the values that Scotland represents? | :32:11. | :32:13. | |
Because I always feel like there has been a big tension between Scotland | :32:14. | :32:20. | |
and England and I would identify myself more with Scottish | :32:21. | :32:22. | |
I think we have completely different values. | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
To be British represents being an imperialistic, | :32:27. | :32:33. | |
capitalist, unfair society where people don't matter. | :32:34. | :32:34. | |
Whereas in Scotland, we are more equal and we are inclusive | :32:35. | :32:37. | |
and we care about trying to help each other and trying | :32:38. | :32:40. | |
to make everyone better, not just the people at the top. | :32:41. | :32:47. | |
I am British and I think I have hit into the culture down in England | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
But if Brexit makes Scots inclined more to a European world | :32:52. | :32:59. | |
view, it also changes the independence proposition. | :33:00. | :33:01. | |
The prospect of a hard border across the island of Britain. | :33:02. | :33:09. | |
Jim Gallaher was a senior civil servant who has worked for decades | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
on relations between Scotland and Westminster and was | :33:14. | :33:15. | |
a leading thinker in the pro-union camp in 2014. | :33:16. | :33:22. | |
Outside the single market, and if the UK is outside | :33:23. | :33:25. | |
the Customs Union, you are talking about some form of border control | :33:26. | :33:28. | |
and some substantial restriction on trade | :33:29. | :33:29. | |
And since England is by far Scotland's biggest market, | :33:30. | :33:38. | |
the economic effects of that are very real. | :33:39. | :33:41. | |
Not to mention, even, potentially the effects | :33:42. | :33:43. | |
He needs no wooing from London, rough or otherwise. | :33:44. | :33:49. | |
Like Scotland itself, he voted to stay in both unions. | :33:50. | :33:52. | |
But he is clear about which matters more. | :33:53. | :33:54. | |
What it does do for the proponents of independence is give them | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
The English are different from us, they say. | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
Well, I rather suspect that in the long run, | :34:04. | :34:06. | |
the English are really much more like us than we are like | :34:07. | :34:08. | |
Henry VIII's English army made it this far, | :34:09. | :34:15. | |
But the castle held out and Scotland stayed, for now, | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
The English went home to work out why burning down the capital city | :34:20. | :34:26. | |
didn't win them the friendship of the Scots. | :34:27. | :34:28. | |
That phrase, "Rough Wooing", comes from a comment attributed | :34:29. | :34:30. | |
to the fourth Earl of Huntley, who said of the English... | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
"We did not like the manner of their wooing and could not stoop | :34:36. | :34:38. | |
That theme runs through Scottish history like a thread | :34:39. | :34:42. | |
The union has been at its strongest when Scotland has felt concrete | :34:43. | :34:51. | |
reason to love the shared enterprise of Britishness, whatever | :34:52. | :34:53. | |
It has been at its weakest when England, through sheer | :34:54. | :35:00. | |
superiority of numbers, has felt entitled to impose | :35:01. | :35:02. | |
on Scotland something Scotland has rejected. | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
England and Scotland married in the end and the marriage has | :35:07. | :35:08. | |
But they are leading increasingly separate lives these days, | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
The manner of that wooing could determine | :35:14. | :35:20. | |
Among Trump-haters, Ivanka Trump has sometimes caused a kind | :35:21. | :35:33. | |
She's a Trump, so should be hated, and yet she seems like a good | :35:34. | :35:39. | |
She seems more liberal - in the election campaign, | :35:40. | :35:43. | |
she championed childcare as an issue. | :35:44. | :35:46. | |
She comes across as a strong woman in the team, she was appropriately | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
disapproving of her father's remarks on that coach about grabbing women. | :35:51. | :35:53. | |
And she seems to have struck up a friendship with Justin Trudeau - | :35:54. | :35:56. | |
Well, what to make of the fact that Ivanka now has a formal role | :35:57. | :36:02. | |
She did have that role informally, but the arrangement was criticised, | :36:03. | :36:11. | |
it was seen as too powerful a position not | :36:12. | :36:13. | |
to be properly governed by the rules of employees. | :36:14. | :36:15. | |
But still some will say Ivanka's role is nepotism in action. | :36:16. | :36:18. | |
Others might say it is inevitable that | :36:19. | :36:20. | |
presidents will use family as trusted advisors. | :36:21. | :36:22. | |
Let's talk to Doug Wead, who was a special assistant | :36:23. | :36:24. | |
to President George Bush Snr and has written extensively | :36:25. | :36:26. | |
Very good evening to you. How often have president is given a proper | :36:27. | :36:37. | |
role, former or informal, to close members of family? All through | :36:38. | :36:43. | |
American history. I counted about 18 or 19, depending on how you define | :36:44. | :36:49. | |
them, and daughters who have had very powerful roles in their | :36:50. | :36:53. | |
father's White House. And you were there when George Bush senior | :36:54. | :37:02. | |
implied his son in the White House. -- employed. He was not in the White | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
House, he was in the campaign but we talked about that a lot and that was | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
why I began my study of presidential children. He came into the middle of | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
his father's campaign and what I learned is that even the White | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
House, if you make a decision and you are wrong, you get fired. If you | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
make a decision and you are right, you make everybody mad and you do | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
not get credit for it anyway, the credit goes up, so no one makes | :37:28. | :37:30. | |
decisions. The governments are present in this case the campaign | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
suffered. When George W Bush came into the campaign on March of 1987, | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
he made decisions, and it transformed the campaign. And I | :37:40. | :37:46. | |
wondered, how will his father be president of the United States | :37:47. | :37:48. | |
without his son in the White House with him? And I believe that if he | :37:49. | :37:52. | |
had gone in the White House with him, George HW Bush would have been | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
re-elected and George W Bush would not have become president. History | :37:57. | :37:59. | |
would have been very different. There is something a bit nepotistic | :38:00. | :38:03. | |
in there, that corrupt. The president of Congo would the idea | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
will stop I picked Congo at random. Appointing sons or daughters, it is | :38:08. | :38:12. | |
not what you think of advanced Western societies doing as a way of | :38:13. | :38:19. | |
running themselves, is it? They have been doing it from the beginning. | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
George Adams was the secretary to his father and Martin Van Buren | :38:24. | :38:29. | |
appointed his son as secretary. All the way through history. When he is | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
one of his father's bodyguard and secretary and a fractal Chief of | :38:35. | :38:40. | |
Staff. Anna Roosevelt ran the White House in FDR's last year of power. | :38:41. | :38:46. | |
It was inevitable, because they need loyalty. That is the most important | :38:47. | :38:49. | |
loyalty in the White House. And they need honesty. A lot of people will | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
not tell the president what he needs to hear but a son or daughter will. | :38:54. | :38:57. | |
And they need someone who will make decisions. And they cannot be fired, | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
the son or daughter. What you think of it like a Trump? -- what do you | :39:03. | :39:13. | |
think of Ivanka Trump. I wrote a book called Game of Thorns and | :39:14. | :39:16. | |
predicted that he would call on her and she would become powerful in | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
this White House. I have been an adviser in this White House and I | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
see this young lady as capable and talented. It is not about balancing | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
the politics, it is about the need for loyalty and competence and | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
continuity. She cannot be fired as daughter. She can be fired in that | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
position but she will come back to the dinner table, so if you give | :39:40. | :39:44. | |
information, she becomes part of the plan and there is continuity. That | :39:45. | :39:47. | |
will last and a lot of these leaders are around Trump will be gone in a | :39:48. | :39:56. | |
few years, but a backdrop will stay. -- but Ivanka Trump will stay. They | :39:57. | :39:58. | |
give very much. From tomorrow visitors | :39:59. | :40:00. | |
to the Naval College in Greenwich will get a rare opportunity to get | :40:01. | :40:02. | |
a close up view of the ceiling of its famous 'Painted Hall' - | :40:03. | :40:05. | |
the lavish centre piece at the heart It's been described as the UK's | :40:06. | :40:08. | |
Sistine Chapel and over the next two years, conservators will be | :40:09. | :40:17. | |
restoring the work - We leave you tonight | :40:18. | :40:19. | |
with the College's conservation director William Palin - | :40:20. | :40:22. | |
on why the ceiling is so important. We're standing beneath this | :40:23. | :40:25. | |
extraordinary painted ceiling, the greatest work | :40:26. | :40:57. | |
of English baroque art. This is the largest painted | :40:58. | :40:59. | |
ceiling in northern Europe. I think it's very hard | :41:00. | :41:01. | |
to find anything to compare I suppose 'the Sistine Chapel | :41:02. | :41:04. | |
of Britain' conveys something of the scale and magnificence | :41:05. | :41:07. | |
of this interior. And the idea was always | :41:08. | :41:09. | |
that this room would dazzle and amaze and overwhelm, | :41:10. | :41:12. | |
so visitors would arrive here, look up, see this amazing | :41:13. | :41:14. | |
ceiling and then think, "hmm, I'll leave some money | :41:15. | :41:16. | |
for the foundation to help This was Britain's response | :41:17. | :41:18. | |
to European culture, saying, "We can do this | :41:19. | :41:21. | |
as well, if not better We have a baroque decorative scheme | :41:22. | :41:23. | |
celebrating the Protestant monarchy and we have a building | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
of unparalleled magnificence. After today's warmth, | :41:28. | :41:53. | |
it's going to be a very A little rain could wander | :41:54. | :41:57. | |
into eastern parts of England for a while but most of the wet | :41:58. | :42:01. | |
weather is further west and it is tracking its way away | :42:02. | :42:04. | |
from Wales and Northern Ireland, So we're going to have a window | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
around the middle part of the day, | :42:09. | :42:12. |