Browse content similar to Article 50 Special. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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And now the decision to leave has been made, and the process is | :00:16. | :00:21. | |
underway, it is time to come together. There is no reason to | :00:22. | :00:30. | |
pretend that this is a happy day. We are leaving. | :00:31. | :00:46. | |
Control over migration through our own borders and a reassertion of the | :00:47. | :00:54. | |
supremacy of our Parliament. That will happen. | :00:55. | :01:05. | |
The Prime Minister says no deal it is better than a bad deal, but the | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
reality is, no deal is a bad deal. We already miss you. Thank you and | :01:11. | :01:19. | |
goodbye. The clock to exit, has started | :01:20. | :01:30. | |
counting down as we are helpfully To think a year ago, hardly anyone | :01:31. | :01:36. | |
had heard of Article 50, now it is the framework | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
by which our future Welcome to Brussels - | :01:42. | :01:43. | |
We'll head to London later in the programme, | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
and to Berlin. But it is THIS city that has become | :01:49. | :01:56. | |
a by-word in the UK, for bureaucracy and barmy | :01:57. | :01:59. | |
directives, for remote rule Fair or unfair, those | :02:00. | :02:01. | |
associations are now irrelevant. Not for the first time, | :02:02. | :02:12. | |
we are redefining our relationship with the continent that sits 21 | :02:13. | :02:14. | |
miles away from us. Theresa May put on a conciliatory | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
tone in the commons today. I have set out a clear and ambitious | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
plan for the negotiations ahead. It is a plan for a new deep | :02:25. | :02:27. | |
and special partnership between A partnership of values, | :02:28. | :02:30. | |
a partnership of interest, a partnership based on cooperation | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
in areas such as security and economic affairs | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
and a partnership that works in the best interests | :02:41. | :02:42. | |
of the United Kingdom, the European Union and the wider | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
world. Because, perhaps now, | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
more than ever, the world needs the liberal democratic | :02:51. | :02:53. | |
values of Europe. "Deep and special partnership" | :02:54. | :02:55. | |
are words she repeated. The British government's letter | :02:56. | :03:12. | |
triggering Article 50 was hand delivered to Donald Tusk - | :03:13. | :03:14. | |
a very nineteenth And that acknowledgement meant, | :03:15. | :03:16. | |
the clock to our exit Unless we agree on something | :03:17. | :03:24. | |
different, it's 730 days away. Not for the first time, | :03:25. | :03:31. | |
we will be separate. You can look back to the Roman | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
empire or the Reformation to see that we have long had an ambivalent | :03:36. | :03:38. | |
relationship with the continent. Perhaps this historic moment fits | :03:39. | :03:41. | |
that historic pattern. Membership actually came after years | :03:42. | :03:59. | |
of dithering. After the war we said no but then we said yes and then the | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
French said no, followed by yes and then we said yes but now we say no. | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
Maybe Brexit is just the latest manifestation of Britain's on-off | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
relationship with the continent, through the centuries we have | :04:14. | :04:16. | |
struggled to settle the matter of how to engage without committing to | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
Europe. We have a tendency to think of Europe as a unified entity on the | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
other side of the channel with which we | :04:27. | :04:39. | |
either engage or do not. It is a frame of mind that comes out of the | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
19th century, the idea of splendid isolation and the idea that we have | :04:44. | :04:45. | |
our own perpetual interest and perpetual enemies and allies. Other | :04:46. | :04:48. | |
nations found solace in the newly constructed European institutions, | :04:49. | :04:49. | |
having lived through a war and crises on their own. The British | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
public never really got behind of Brussels and its ways. Perhaps we | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
confused it with Eurovision, except when we joined the Common Market, it | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
was possible to think that we had settled the matter and we were now | :05:05. | :05:11. | |
taking Europe seriously. # Taking power to all our friends. | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
That very year Cliff Richard came third with power to all our friends, | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
a song for a new constructive era. Back then and that sporadic other | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
bomb moments, you could genuinely think that post-imperial Britain had | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
found a new home for itself here in Brussels, but we were never quite in | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
sync. We were never really all that comfortable. It took a decade for | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
Labour to reluctantly reconcile itself to membership of the Common | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
Market and by then, the Conservatives were turning | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
sceptical. And in our 44 years of EU membership we have had more than 44 | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
arguments, over treaties and social chapters, budgets and bent bananas. | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
For any marriage to be durable, the partners have to grow, develop and | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
change together and the Common Market did change. The EEC became | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
the EU, the nine members became 28, the one thing that did not change | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
though, was that British ambivalence. If anything, it grew. | :06:13. | :06:18. | |
Our separation captured by this moment, Gordon Brown signing Bill | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
lives bomb treaty on his own, I'm keen to make a big deal of it. The | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
other member celebrated together, thinking of it as a new constitution | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
for Europe. So now, we forge a new relationship. This is an historic | :06:33. | :06:39. | |
moment, from which there can be no turning back. Britain is leaving the | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
European Union. Can we finally settle the matter once and for all? | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
Good luck with that. At one level you might say that the EU is less | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
binary than it used to be, less about in or out, it can be by | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
curious, dabble in the bits we like, reject the bits we do not like and | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
even the remaining members recognise it is to big for one size fits all, | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
flexibility has to be part of their future. We are all grown-ups, that | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
is the modern way. But, when it comes to us and flexibility, we have | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
only allowed ourselves two years to negotiate something we have been | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
grappling with four two sentries and are we all grown-ups? Human emotion | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
is at play, nowhere more so than in the European Parliament itself. It | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
is going to be complicated. While we have been ambivalent about the EU, | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
over the 44 years, the public have merrily reached out to Europe for | :07:37. | :07:43. | |
business and pleasure. Those auto industry supply chains, testify to | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
deeper links with Europe than to the EU. But the EU might get in the way | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
of those relationships with Europe. In so many areas, from regulation of | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
trade in nuclear materials to rules governing aviation, there is room | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
for the others to cause trouble, without even thinking about trading | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
goods and services. Who knows how it will go. It is now those | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
institutions about which we have been so very ambivalent that will be | :08:12. | :08:12. | |
shaping our future. There are several | :08:13. | :08:15. | |
presidents of the EU - Donald Tusk for the Council, | :08:16. | :08:17. | |
Jean-Claude Juncker And I sat down with the President | :08:18. | :08:19. | |
of the European Parliament, The Parliament does have the power | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
to veto a deal and has suggested Mr Tajani had hot-footed | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
it to me straight from Yes, we had a very good | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
conversation, very constructive. Both we want an agreement, | :08:36. | :08:47. | |
win win and then after the Brexit, our opinion is, we need | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
to have a good cooperation. Tomorrow, the United Kingdom will be | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
outside the European Union, but it will still be Europe, | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
it is important, to work together, You mentioned terrorism, | :09:02. | :09:04. | |
many people say, her letter to you is a threat, it is blackmail, | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
it says we want a deal on the economy and on security | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
and links the two. If Britain links security | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
and economy, how will you react? We need to work | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
for global agreement. General agreement is | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
the most important point. But, the cooperation against | :09:29. | :09:31. | |
the terrorists is a priority. Also, without an agreement in other | :09:32. | :09:38. | |
sectors, we need to cooperate The first issue is money, | :09:39. | :09:40. | |
the bill for the UK to pay. I think millions | :09:41. | :09:47. | |
and millions of euro. And my understanding is we talk | :09:48. | :09:55. | |
about the money and we can also talk about broad principles on our future | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
partnership, correct, Before, we need to achieve | :10:00. | :10:00. | |
an agreement on the Brexit and then, it is possible to decide our future, | :10:01. | :10:14. | |
our good relations, but before we need to decide the divorce, | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
because without the divorce, it is impossible to decide | :10:21. | :10:26. | |
the day after the divorce! We need to know what the UK | :10:27. | :10:34. | |
will give us afterwards. It could be a financial | :10:35. | :10:36. | |
problem for us! Also, financial, but I think | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
it is important to have a good framework before and then, | :10:42. | :10:44. | |
it is possible to achieve a good agreement for the future, | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
but it is important that we have a good | :10:49. | :10:50. | |
framework for the Brexit. Do you think Britain maybe one day | :10:51. | :10:57. | |
will want to come back But, but, we need an agreement | :10:58. | :11:00. | |
with the 27 member states. If the UK wants to change | :11:01. | :11:13. | |
its position, I think What is your message today to 48% | :11:14. | :11:23. | |
of the UK population They are losing their | :11:24. | :11:31. | |
European citizenship, You can sell passports to them, | :11:32. | :11:39. | |
European passports? They are citizens of | :11:40. | :11:54. | |
the United Kingdom, They are European, but they are not | :11:55. | :12:00. | |
citizens of the European Union now. I think we need to respect the vote, | :12:01. | :12:08. | |
the referendum, the democracy, but I think we look at these people, | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
because I think in the UK, there are a lot of pro-European | :12:13. | :12:15. | |
citizens against the Brexit. We need to have good relationships | :12:16. | :12:23. | |
with them in the future. Early 2019, the deal goes | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
to the European Parliament, you have to vote for it | :12:27. | :12:33. | |
or against it, the deal is better than no deal, but not as good | :12:34. | :12:36. | |
as the deal you want. It does not have your red lines, | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
it does not have all Do you vote for it or do | :12:43. | :12:45. | |
you vote against it? I think my personal position, | :12:46. | :12:57. | |
we need to achieve a good agreement. With, the most important point | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
of the European Parliament. The agreement, win-win, | :13:03. | :13:04. | |
is not the agreement. We need to be very pragmatic, | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
but at the same time, we need to strengthen the rights | :13:09. | :13:11. | |
of citizens, not only Europeans, but also the UK citizens, | :13:12. | :13:14. | |
and I think it is possible to achieve this goal, finally, | :13:15. | :13:16. | |
but we need to read the content For all his optimism, | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
I'd say sadness not anger But we'll be back a little | :13:20. | :13:41. | |
later to test that. We'll be back in Brussels later, | :13:42. | :13:48. | |
but now to the day here. Theresa May was on her feet | :13:49. | :13:55. | |
for three hours this afternoon, and struck a tone that looked rather | :13:56. | :13:57. | |
different to some of the bravado There was an acknowledgment | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
that there would be 'consequences' for Britain's departure - | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
perhaps even a tacit And she went further: suggesting | :14:05. | :14:06. | |
in no uncertain terms that failure to reach an agreement would mean | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
Britain's cooperation in the fight How did Security become | :14:12. | :14:14. | |
contingent on trade? Is it the start of dirty talk - | :14:15. | :14:20. | |
either to Europe, Nick Watt our political editor | :14:21. | :14:23. | |
is here - how did you read today? Rule number one of reporting the | :14:24. | :14:36. | |
modern Conservative Party is to be careful of saying it is united on | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
Europe. Eurosceptics were delirious today and pro-Europeans were | :14:42. | :14:44. | |
delighted that the Prime Minister reached out to the EU by saying that | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
the world needs the Liberal democratic values of Europe and that | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
really set the tone for that two-year road to Brexit. One Cabinet | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
minister told me today that we might not actually read the political | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
negotiations until next January. We have the German elections in | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
September and last time it took two months to form a government. That | :15:07. | :15:16. | |
means that we might just have ten months of intense political | :15:17. | :15:18. | |
negotiations before we reach the informal deadline of October, 2018 | :15:19. | :15:21. | |
so we can have six months of ratification. Before we get to all | :15:22. | :15:27. | |
of that there is the small matter of triggering article 15. Here is my | :15:28. | :15:29. | |
film on the Prime Minister's day. David Cameron warned if would amount | :15:30. | :15:36. | |
to the gamble of the century. Today, Theresa May was hailed as the person | :15:37. | :15:43. | |
of this century as she showed her hand, nine months after the UK voted | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
to leave the EU. Downing Street has spent months sweating about how to | :15:50. | :15:52. | |
play their hand over the triggering of Article 50. In the end, Britain's | :15:53. | :15:59. | |
ambassador to the EU handed over a relatively short letter which | :16:00. | :16:02. | |
combined words of comfort and words of warning. The Prime Minister's two | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
audiences - eurosceptics in Britain and the remaining 27 members of the | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
EU. To eurosceptics, the Prime Minister hailed a historic moment | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
that will be irreversible, but in a mild toning down of her rhetoric | :16:19. | :16:21. | |
about a sunny Brexit future, she warned of what she called | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
"consequences." Britain won't be present when rules for the European | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
single market are drawn up. To the rest of the EU, the Prime Minister | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
spoke of her desire to forge a deep and special partnership. But there | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
was also an unmistakable warning that failure to agree a UK-EU deal | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
would weaken co-operation in the fight against terrorism. The tone | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
today was, I thought, a little reminder to the European Union that, | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
actually, there is a lot in this for them as much as there is for us if | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
we strike a reasonable agreement. The reality is that the UK actually | :17:00. | :17:05. | |
is needed in a whole lot of areas of the European Union, not just trade, | :17:06. | :17:08. | |
not just co-operation. In that sense, the co-operation on security, | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
intelligence and policing. This message appeared not to be | :17:14. | :17:16. | |
appreciated in the EU where it was seen as something of a threat. | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
Theresa May's Labour redcressor as Home Secretary thought she had | :17:23. | :17:25. | |
another audience in mind. I think the whole of that letter was a | :17:26. | :17:32. | |
warning to her Eurosceptics and a bit on the security was | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
predominantly about that. There were orbits of the letter, warning | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
business that is they won't - they it will have more pew rocky to deal | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
with to trade into the biggest commercial market on our doorstep. | :17:48. | :17:50. | |
There was a hint of realism. Tony Blair in that phrase said it was the | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
swivel eyed ones driving the bus. Maybe Theresa May has wrenched the | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
wheel off of them. One pro-European Tory believes the Prime Minister was | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
thinking of those who have no fear of leaving the EU without a deal. I | :18:06. | :18:12. | |
think it demonstrates the very real adverse consequences of crashing out | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
without a deal. It's showing it's not just about trade and WTO, but | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
it's about losing security co-operation. That is a message for | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
Europe and for those here in the UK who are saying that somehow no deal | :18:26. | :18:28. | |
is a good option. That is one of the things I put to the Prime Minister | :18:29. | :18:31. | |
today. She made it very clear she said - I'm really keen to get a good | :18:32. | :18:38. | |
deal. This was unquestionably a day of high stakes, but our ever | :18:39. | :18:41. | |
cautious Prime Minister went out of her way with messages carefully | :18:42. | :18:49. | |
crafted for her various audiences to Sehwag's no reckless gambler. Nick | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
Watt there. As you heard, Theresa May | :18:54. | :18:56. | |
mentioned security 11 times The EU's chief Brexit negotiator, | :18:57. | :18:58. | |
Guy Verhofstadt, accused the Prime Minister of a threat | :18:59. | :19:01. | |
to weaken security commitments to the EU if Britain | :19:02. | :19:04. | |
was denied a trade deal. So when I spoke earlier | :19:05. | :19:06. | |
to Damien Green, the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, | :19:07. | :19:09. | |
and one of Theresa May's most trusted colleagues in Cabinet, | :19:10. | :19:12. | |
I started off by asking him It's not a threat, I think that's | :19:13. | :19:14. | |
the misunderstanding. There was no threat | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
in the Prime Minister's letter. All right, she says "in security | :19:21. | :19:27. | |
terms a failure to reach agreement would mean our co-operation | :19:28. | :19:30. | |
in the fight against crime Just explain to us then | :19:31. | :19:32. | |
what would be weakened in the event of no trade deal, | :19:33. | :19:35. | |
what would happen? Well, we have institutions | :19:36. | :19:38. | |
inside the European Union of which we are part, | :19:39. | :19:41. | |
which allow us to have daily, Things like the European Arrest | :19:42. | :19:44. | |
Warrant and various things We can't divorce that | :19:45. | :19:51. | |
from a trade deal? Obviously, we want a trade deal | :19:52. | :19:54. | |
and obviously we want a security deal as well as part of the overall | :19:55. | :20:02. | |
negotiations because we want there to be - | :20:03. | :20:04. | |
So why can't we have a security deal It has been all bound | :20:05. | :20:07. | |
up in our membership of the European Union, | :20:08. | :20:15. | |
so what we want is a deal It's a way of saying, | :20:16. | :20:18. | |
if you don't give us what we want, then we won't help | :20:19. | :20:26. | |
you with security? I mean, the phrase you read out, | :20:27. | :20:28. | |
the sentence you read out from the Prime Minister, | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
is a statement that it's "We must work hard to | :20:34. | :20:36. | |
avoid that outcome." Would we will be less willing then | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
to share intelligence? Would we be less willing | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
to extradite suspects or, as you say, deploy troops to protect | :20:46. | :20:48. | |
Europe? We're still able to | :20:49. | :20:50. | |
do all those things. We can do the last one | :20:51. | :20:52. | |
because that's part of Nato, Well, sharing intelligence, | :20:53. | :20:59. | |
that requires legal protocols. You can't just share intelligence | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
without a legal basis for doing it. Those don't just disappear just | :21:04. | :21:06. | |
because a trade deal isn't there? they disappear at the moment | :21:07. | :21:08. | |
if you're not a member That's why we want to recast | :21:09. | :21:19. | |
them because, I agree, of course these things | :21:20. | :21:26. | |
are very important. They are important to our safety | :21:27. | :21:27. | |
and important to the safety How does it even serve our own | :21:28. | :21:30. | |
country's interest to suggest that that might be under threat or off | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
the table now. The fact that we're leaving | :21:35. | :21:36. | |
the European Union means that certain legal - things | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
that we can now do legally, including intelligence co-operation, | :21:41. | :21:43. | |
needs to have a new legal basis She said, ?in security terms, | :21:44. | :21:45. | |
failure to reach an agreement would mean our co-operation | :21:46. | :21:52. | |
in the fight against crime Because the things we can do legally | :21:53. | :21:55. | |
as a member of the European Union, we couldn't do if we weren't | :21:56. | :22:02. | |
a member of the European Union and we didn't reach | :22:03. | :22:05. | |
a security agreement. It's - You're comfortable | :22:06. | :22:07. | |
with that position? It's a very sensible point to make | :22:08. | :22:09. | |
that there are huge numbers of areas where we want | :22:10. | :22:12. | |
very close co-operation. It's a deal in other | :22:13. | :22:14. | |
areas, like security. In this post-deal world | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
that we have to imagine, what will the divorce | :22:21. | :22:23. | |
settlement look like? Well, we haven't had anything formal | :22:24. | :22:25. | |
back from the European Union yet. As you say, there are lots | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
of numbers swirling around, but actually, until the negotiations | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
start, I think Donald Tusk made clear today, | :22:36. | :22:41. | |
that they will have their negotiating mandate ready | :22:42. | :22:44. | |
by the end of April. So, at that point, it might be | :22:45. | :22:46. | |
sensible to start talking money. Theresa May said the days of vast | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
contributions will end. So it won't look like | :22:52. | :22:54. | |
?200 million a week? Well, the days of large | :22:55. | :23:03. | |
contributions will end but, however hard you try, you're not | :23:04. | :23:06. | |
going to get me on what numbers we're aiming at because that | :23:07. | :23:09. | |
would not be in the interests Yeah, but the British | :23:10. | :23:12. | |
people are feeling really As you say, we had | :23:13. | :23:15. | |
numbers on the bus. We've had numbers contradicted | :23:16. | :23:18. | |
before Brexit, after Brexit. We know that we pay around | :23:19. | :23:20. | |
?200 million a week. Tell us that we won't pay more | :23:21. | :23:22. | |
than that at the end of this deal? Well, I mean, Philip Hammond has | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
made clear that the sort of outer end of the figures | :23:27. | :23:29. | |
aren't remotely realistic. So we won't pay more | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
than ?200 million a week We will, obviously, | :23:34. | :23:36. | |
we will pay for projects But, you know, what those | :23:37. | :23:39. | |
projects are and, therefore, what the numbers are, | :23:40. | :23:47. | |
it's way too early to say. But if part of the attraction | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
of this was getting hold of our finances again, | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
choosing what we buy and what we don't and what we send | :23:56. | :23:57. | |
and what we don't, we are not You must be able to rule | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
that out, can't you? We won't end up paying | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
the same amount after... We will only be paying | :24:06. | :24:07. | |
for things that are in You are quite right to say, | :24:08. | :24:10. | |
we will be able to take our own decisions as to how we spend | :24:11. | :24:16. | |
the money and there some European projects that we may | :24:17. | :24:18. | |
wish to play a part in that What the numbers are, | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
that's for the negotiations. Jonathan Hill was our man | :24:23. | :24:30. | |
in Brussels until the Brexit vote. He resigned almost immediately | :24:31. | :24:32. | |
afterwards from his post as EU He understands the mechanics | :24:33. | :24:35. | |
of this day and the days Nice of you to come in Lord Hill. Do | :24:36. | :24:46. | |
you think this will have momentum now. We are only four hours into | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
this, it feels like a lifetime already? It's clearly, we are right | :24:51. | :24:53. | |
at the beginning. I think the first thing we all need to do is take a | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
deep breath and actually I think the intelligent way to think about the | :24:59. | :25:01. | |
negotiation, in a way, it's slightly the other way round. Start with - | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
where do we want to end up? One of the things about the European | :25:07. | :25:09. | |
system, that I think people don't always appreciate over here, where | :25:10. | :25:15. | |
we tend to think of it as being a bureaucratic inflexible system. It | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
has some of those characteristics as well, it can, at the same time, be a | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
highly flexible and political system. If it wants to do a deal, | :25:24. | :25:31. | |
then a lot of these really complicated, technical issues can be | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
sorted. Can be magically resolved. It's about hearts right now, not | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
mechanics? I think a lot of it is about the heart and where he we want | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
to get to, in terms of a new relationship, a new partnership at | :25:46. | :25:51. | |
the end of it. We've done an awful lot in recent months talking about | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
all the things that divide us. We haven't done very. | :25:56. | :25:57. | |
About the things we have in common. Actually, the thing that strikes me | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
about it is our shared history, our shared values and the fact that | :26:03. | :26:05. | |
we're going to have a shared future. I thought Mrs May picked up some of | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
that in her letter. She did. She told the BBC this evening that a | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
comprehensive free trade agreement is possible. There would be a | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
different relationship but with the same benefits. She outlined | :26:19. | :26:21. | |
something similar to what we have now. You could have kept the | :26:22. | :26:31. | |
portfolio, couldn't you? Things will have to cleaning a bit. When you | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
have any policy change, whatever size it is, you know that there are | :26:36. | :26:42. | |
always winners and losers. So we're about to set out on some of the | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
biggest set of policy changes that we've been through in the last 40, | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
50 years. Clearly, there are going to be parts of the economy that will | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
be affected by the change. There will be some where there will be new | :26:57. | :26:59. | |
opportunities. I think the way to think about it is to move on a bit | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
from the slightlister rile polarised political debate we have and think | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
about how can you minimise the downsize. How can you maximise the | :27:10. | :27:12. | |
opportunity. How can you get on with it as fast as you possibly can? Do | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
you think that tone was right. On the one hand we were saying it's | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
conciliatory. She put out something akin to blackmail, didn't she, with | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
the security threat. Damian Green disagrees with me. It sounded like - | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
we will withdraw what we want, what we have on the table if we don't get | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
stuff? I didn't read it as a blackmail threat. I read it as being | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
a sensible way of trying to identify the things that we've got in common. | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
Because I think, if you think about this from a European point of view, | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
someone like me, who wishes the European Union well and wants the | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
European continent to flourish, they need as much as we do to get through | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
this process speedily. I think it's important for them that the message | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
they communicate to the outside world is, actually, the EU can deal | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
with something like this, take it in its stride and move on. They've got | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
big issues of their own that they need to address. I think, for them, | :28:10. | :28:16. | |
to approach it in a constructive way as we can makes sense economically | :28:17. | :28:19. | |
and to try and secure and keep some of the things that we want to have | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
in common. Then to get on with the things that they want to do to | :28:24. | :28:26. | |
secure the future of the European Union. Lord Hill. Thank you. Thank | :28:27. | :28:28. | |
you. Now back to Brussels and Evan. It was perhaps a myth to think | :28:29. | :28:35. | |
that Brussels has been the centre of power in Europe, | :28:36. | :28:38. | |
it's more the meeting point, No, the real power lies | :28:39. | :28:41. | |
with the governments of the EU, and politics will probably shape | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
the European offer to the UK. No capital is more | :28:47. | :28:48. | |
important than Berlin, and our diplomatic editor, | :28:49. | :28:50. | |
Mark Urban, is there for us. Mark, this has been | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
no surprise today. What's Angela Merkel | :28:56. | :28:57. | |
been saying about it? Well, it's very interesting to see | :28:58. | :29:06. | |
the degree of message control, if you like, that goes from here to the | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
key institutions. The German line is very similar to the one that the | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
President of the European Parliament gave to you earlier - let's get the | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
circumstances of the so-called divorce straight before we move on | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
to talking about the bigger relationship, any trade details, | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
that kind of thing. Now, key to this divorce issue is the British | :29:28. | :29:30. | |
contribution in paying out the remainder of the budget period. If | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
the Brits carry on refusing to pay, I think we can be confident the | :29:35. | :29:37. | |
Germans will simply wait them out for as many months as that seems to | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
be happening. They really want to avoid a knife fight between EU | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
countries over who makes up the shortfall. Then there is the issue | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
of foreign nationals. Some European countries are tougher on these | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
issues. Some are less so. Of course, as Europe's economic powerhouse with | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
by far the largest contribution to its budget, Germany's attitude will | :30:01. | :30:02. | |
be pivotal. The day started with news | :30:03. | :30:08. | |
that the Brexit phoney war, those months between the referendum | :30:09. | :30:13. | |
and today, was over. Many German politicians had hoped | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
that Britain would change its mind The number of people in Britain that | :30:18. | :30:21. | |
think that the decision was right to leave the European Union will go | :30:22. | :30:32. | |
down and down and, at the end of the day, the British Government | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
has to decide whether they should follow the way or that they should | :30:37. | :30:40. | |
probably follow the change in mood I think, in every stage | :30:41. | :30:43. | |
of the negotiations, the German government and German | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
politics will say, OK, we accept to stop and to | :30:48. | :30:50. | |
throwaway that letter. Article 50 is reversible | :30:51. | :31:00. | |
then, in your view? Like many countries though, Germany | :31:01. | :31:02. | |
has plenty of other priorities, that the offices of Bildt, | :31:03. | :31:05. | |
the biggest selling paper, the editor explained why today's | :31:06. | :31:08. | |
news hadn't even made People in Germany worry a lot more | :31:09. | :31:10. | |
about Donald Trump right now They actually haven't been worried | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
about Brexit last year before the referendum because no-one | :31:16. | :31:20. | |
thought it was possible I think there was a mix of regret, | :31:21. | :31:22. | |
but also lack of interest. Thinking, oh, it's the British again | :31:23. | :31:29. | |
wanting their own way. Many Germans maybe slow | :31:30. | :31:36. | |
to pick up on what this process will now involve, | :31:37. | :31:38. | |
but for some there are At this English bookshop, | :31:39. | :31:41. | |
Another Country, we met British expats whose fate, | :31:42. | :31:45. | |
along with that of EU citizens in Britain, | :31:46. | :31:48. | |
ranks among the most I've been in Germany quite | :31:49. | :31:49. | |
a long time and I feel like Britain has, kind of, | :31:50. | :31:57. | |
abandoned me personally almost. It's a very personal | :31:58. | :32:01. | |
reaction, I think. People in the UK, I'm sure, can look | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
at Trump and go - oh, he's a joke. The whole says he's | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
a joke, it's clear. But when they look at Brexit | :32:10. | :32:15. | |
they don't understand that the whole world, | :32:16. | :32:17. | |
including Germany, anywhere that's broadly | :32:18. | :32:19. | |
similar it's like - Why Germany's leader said today that | :32:20. | :32:20. | |
issues relating to separation, such as expats and the UK's share | :32:21. | :32:27. | |
of the EU budget, will have to come first before any talks | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
on the wider relationship. Many here don't rate Britain's | :32:32. | :32:37. | |
chances of exploiting splits German priorities will be - | :32:38. | :32:40. | |
how can we find a unified position and protecting the integrity | :32:41. | :32:48. | |
of the European Union. That is Germany's | :32:49. | :32:50. | |
number one priority. Divide and rule strategy will | :32:51. | :33:02. | |
probably backfire. Talking to politicians here since the | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
referendum, I have heard regret, surprise and even scorn, but very | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
little understanding of why so many Britons voted to leave. For many | :33:12. | :33:17. | |
Germans, the EU's interests and their own national interests are | :33:18. | :33:22. | |
indistinguishable and may well lead this country to take some tough | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
negotiating positions. I expect that Europe should concentrate on more | :33:28. | :33:34. | |
forward-looking things and sorry to say, foolish decision to leave the | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
European Union. Now negotiations begin in earnest, but with many of | :33:40. | :33:42. | |
the key leaders here is still utterly puzzled by Britain's | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
decision, reaching common understandings by not be easy. | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
Let's continue the discussion with two members of | :33:51. | :33:52. | |
Ska Keller is a Green MEP from Germany and Robert Ziller | :33:53. | :33:56. | |
is a Latvian MEP, on the right, in the European Conservatives | :33:57. | :33:58. | |
Thank you for joining us. First of all, very briefly on security, did | :33:59. | :34:14. | |
you think that the British were trying to blackmail Europeans were | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
some words on security? If you read the Prime Minister's letter, | :34:20. | :34:25. | |
sentence by sentence, but the issue is serious, the security for my | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
region and Poland, security is very important. What did you think? With | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
a British trying to say something by putting the sentences next to each | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
other? It certainly did raise the attention of everyone reading it. It | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
was clear that the Prime Minister was trying to find something where | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
she could say, I'm putting my eggs in the basket, I am not sure that | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
this will solve many issues, because security is important, but most | :34:54. | :35:00. | |
sites stand to lose. Both sides stand to lose if we do not reach an | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
economic deal, isn't that really the point? We all stand to lose on | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
anything and that is maybe what she was driving home. We all stand to | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
lose and that is why it is a sad day today. It is very sad and indeed, | :35:15. | :35:21. | |
for as it is important that in the future we have close corporation | :35:22. | :35:24. | |
with the people in Great Britain, many of whom have actually voted to | :35:25. | :35:29. | |
remain in the European Union but it is also clear that when you leave a | :35:30. | :35:35. | |
union like this, you cannot keep all the privileges that come with | :35:36. | :35:42. | |
membership. I really see some concerns, we saw a draft resolution, | :35:43. | :35:52. | |
, but there are paragraphs about Article 50 and a real sense that you | :35:53. | :35:55. | |
have to agree on the divorce that was drawn and at the same time, you | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
have to agree on the framework for future relations and if you read the | :36:00. | :36:06. | |
resolution, you can see that there can only be finalisation of the | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
divorce and only when the UK became a separate country, only then we | :36:12. | :36:14. | |
will make an agreement about how we will trade and do the economy. I | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
think it is the wrong approach and it should be fixed. Do you think the | :36:20. | :36:25. | |
Parliament is getting it wrong? Not only Parliament. I think some member | :36:26. | :36:31. | |
states reported the same issue. I would support the majority decision | :36:32. | :36:37. | |
of the Parliament, because it would be very schizophrenic as the | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
European Union doing a deal with one of our still members. At least the | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
principles, we have to be clear about how we settle the separation | :36:47. | :36:49. | |
before we can talk about the future. What about the money? To see how | :36:50. | :36:55. | |
much we are willing to give, before we know how willing and flexible you | :36:56. | :37:00. | |
will be on the issues that matter to us, it | :37:01. | :37:25. | |
is not reasonable, is it? On the money issue, it is clear that we | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
have taken collective decisions where the UK was part of. The UK | :37:30. | :37:32. | |
cannot run away from it, if you have a divorce, you cannot say forget | :37:33. | :37:35. | |
about the kids, I will not pay for it. You have to contribute if you | :37:36. | :37:38. | |
want to leave the European Union. On the money issue, you have two sides, | :37:39. | :37:40. | |
liabilities and assets. Everyone speaks about liabilities. You have | :37:41. | :37:44. | |
to buy our share out. I hide -- I think we have to be fair on money. | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
If you think about money and nothing else, I think it is wrong. Come the | :37:49. | :37:54. | |
vote you have in the European Parliament, you have to take it or | :37:55. | :37:57. | |
leave it, you will ultimately take it if it is better than no deal at | :37:58. | :38:02. | |
all, isn't that right? All the posturing is irrelevant. If you are | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
faced with a deal that is bad but better than nothing, you have to | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
take it. The Parliament, with its resolution that we are going to vote | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
on next week, if it is adopted, it will make clear, there are some | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
strong points. When it comes to the rights of citizens of the EU in the | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
UK, this will be watched very carefully and also the financial | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
issue and many other issues and the Parliament has proven, it's a had no | :38:29. | :38:33. | |
too bad deals. We need to leave it there. One strategy, if someone | :38:34. | :38:42. | |
really wants to punish the UK because of Brexit, because other | :38:43. | :38:46. | |
member states don't follow in the future, it is a risky strategy. We | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
can say what kind of union will exist in the future. I think we have | :38:51. | :39:00. | |
to... No punishment, but very fair. We need to leave it there. | :39:01. | :39:03. | |
I started by asking whether any new deal will settle | :39:04. | :39:05. | |
It's not the question the rest of Europe are asking - | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
The direction is set but, in the UK, the arguments continue, which takes | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
It's no secret that Europe has brought more Conservative leaders | :39:15. | :39:22. | |
closer to destruction than virtually any other policy. | :39:23. | :39:25. | |
David Cameron knew of the dangers of banging on about Europe. | :39:26. | :39:29. | |
He went in with eyes wide open, but he was still felled by Europe. | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
Today marks perhaps the high watermark for Conservative | :39:34. | :39:34. | |
Eurosceptics that they themselves never believed would happen. | :39:35. | :39:36. | |
In a moment, we'll speak to one of those, MP Jacob Rees Mogg, | :39:37. | :39:39. | |
but first to one of the last of the Europhile big beasts - | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
Nice to see you. How does today feel to you? It is the day in which | :39:44. | :40:00. | |
Britain lost more power and influence than any other day of my | :40:01. | :40:07. | |
peacetime life. We have got influence still, haven't we? We will | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
see. You don't believe that we wield any cards in this deal at all? I | :40:12. | :40:17. | |
don't think so. You might have heard Lauderhill, he said there would be a | :40:18. | :40:22. | |
lot of heartache at the beginning, a lot of people, the slanging match | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
that comes at the beginning of a break-up, people will think | :40:27. | :40:29. | |
rationally, we have to succeed and Europe has to succeed. We might get | :40:30. | :40:35. | |
a deal, but it will be significantly worse than our present position. How | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
do you feel regarding your own party now? You have seen the slings and | :40:41. | :40:47. | |
arrows of Europe and what it has thrown up for the Conservatives, is | :40:48. | :40:53. | |
that debate now over? Know. Every Conservative Prime Minister that I | :40:54. | :40:56. | |
have worked for since the war, including the present one, has | :40:57. | :41:04. | |
argued logically that our national self interest is inextricably | :41:05. | :41:07. | |
interwoven with Europe. Theresa May's speech in April last year was | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
highly impressive. She has changed her mind. I haven't. You are still | :41:12. | :41:17. | |
going to fight on? I am going to do my best to ensure that Parliament, | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
the sovereign guardian of our country has the chance to make the | :41:23. | :41:26. | |
key decisions and I am going to do my best to articulate the | :41:27. | :41:32. | |
frustrations of the 48% who voted against leaving, who feel better | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
that they are being ignored and that their voices not been heard. I will | :41:37. | :41:44. | |
do my best to give them some sort of voice. Some will look and say this | :41:45. | :41:47. | |
is an extraordinary thing, you have got the most popular Conservative | :41:48. | :41:50. | |
Prime Minister for a lifetime, the Brexiteers won fair and square, you | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
must accept that you are out of touch with your party and with the | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
direction the country is going on now. In public life, you can decide | :41:59. | :42:06. | |
value are there. I have views. They happen to be the views of my party | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
all my political life and I have not seen any evidence at all that I | :42:12. | :42:16. | |
should change them. And so, I have only ever voted against my party | :42:17. | :42:20. | |
twice on substantive issues, on the race relations Bill, three weeks | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
later, the party changed its mind, on the poll tax and that enabled | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
John Major to win a decisive victory. We will see whether I am | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
right or wrong. The party can still change is mine? Certainly. The | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
essence of where we are today, is not the phraseology of the letter, | :42:38. | :42:43. | |
or what matters, is what the Europeans tell us they are prepared | :42:44. | :42:48. | |
to do as a deal. Effectively, if I may put it graphically, at the | :42:49. | :42:54. | |
moment, we sit on the Council of ministers, we influence, British | :42:55. | :42:57. | |
self interest, the largest trading partner that we. Tomorrow, they will | :42:58. | :43:06. | |
make the decisions about the trading conditions, the law, the | :43:07. | :43:09. | |
specifications and we won't even have an empty chair in the Council | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
of ministers arguing for British self interest. Thank you very much. | :43:15. | :43:20. | |
You heard Lord Heseltine there speaking directly, saying that we | :43:21. | :43:23. | |
have given up more power than he has seen in his lifetime today. I | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
fundamentally disagree. We have taken power back to the United | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
Kingdom. You have to remember that the rules of the European Union | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
affect 100% our economy and only 13% of our economy trades with Europe. | :43:38. | :43:43. | |
We have been receiving rules passed by qualified majority vote that the | :43:44. | :43:46. | |
British electorate could not stop, democratically, the only way they | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
could stop them was by leaving the European Union. 87% of the economy | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
is not dependent on the EU, so we have reclaimed power. No one really | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
knows what is coming next, Damian Green could not even guarantee we | :44:00. | :44:00. | |
would be paying less for the EU after we left! It is a ridiculous | :44:01. | :44:18. | |
setup! It is obvious we will be playing less. All future events are | :44:19. | :44:21. | |
unknown. That is the nature of mankind, you don't know what the | :44:22. | :44:23. | |
weather will be like tomorrow. You do not move into a house that you | :44:24. | :44:26. | |
have never seen before without having some sense of what you are | :44:27. | :44:29. | |
buying. We know exactly what we will be doing in that sense because this | :44:30. | :44:32. | |
is what we did prior to joining the European Union, we are going to | :44:33. | :44:34. | |
control our own destiny, we are a member of the Security Council and | :44:35. | :44:37. | |
of Nato and in terms of our international influence we are | :44:38. | :44:39. | |
stronger because we are doing it for ourselves. Take the World Trade | :44:40. | :44:48. | |
Organisation, we all have or own feed on the WTO,. That is a better | :44:49. | :44:51. | |
position. I want to talk about the party, because we have both a view | :44:52. | :44:54. | |
from the Conservative Party here and yet you could not be further apart. | :44:55. | :44:59. | |
Does it feel to you like the disagreements are there, do you feel | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
you can walk on and leave the likes of Lord Heseltine behind? He is an | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
enormously distinguished member of the party who has been a loyal | :45:08. | :45:12. | |
supporter and servant for decades. There is no question of leaving him | :45:13. | :45:18. | |
behind. I went to speak to Dominic Grieve and other than on the EU, I | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
agreed with almost everything he says. This is indeed a full-time | :45:23. | :45:27. | |
party and has been for a long time, but there are many issues were many | :45:28. | :45:30. | |
Conservatives agree on a whole range of issues and actually, I think once | :45:31. | :45:35. | |
we have left, it will be a real opportunity for the party to | :45:36. | :45:39. | |
reunite. People are entitled, of course, to argue for positions they | :45:40. | :45:46. | |
have held for many years. It's said that the British | :45:47. | :45:54. | |
were surprised to find their famous tolerance and phlegm severely tested | :45:55. | :45:57. | |
by the Brexit vote. Work colleagues, even husbands | :45:58. | :45:59. | |
and wives, woke up last June Here at Newsnight, we felt | :46:00. | :46:01. | |
that our cherished public service remit was meaningless unless we did | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
a little to pour oil So that's exactly | :46:06. | :46:08. | |
what we did - a little. We sent Stephen Smith | :46:09. | :46:11. | |
to Stratford-upon-Avon, where the breakdown of the vote | :46:12. | :46:12. | |
mirrored the national trend, to see if he could organise | :46:13. | :46:15. | |
a reconciliation tea party So Newsnight said to me - | :46:16. | :46:21. | |
we want you to close our special three hour Brexit programme, | :46:22. | :46:25. | |
why don't you go to Stratford-upon-Avon, | :46:26. | :46:29. | |
where the voters were very divided and see if leavers and remainers | :46:30. | :46:31. | |
can be friends again. This I'll be perfect, | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
let's do the show right here. Put on a little function, they said, | :46:36. | :46:42. | |
on the very British basis that there's nothing that can't be solved | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
by lashings of tea and cake and Morris dancing, | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
of which more later. Spring draws on in Stratford, | :46:52. | :46:57. | |
high time we heard from the Swan of Avon himself, on the vexed | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
question of divided houses. Two households, both | :47:03. | :47:05. | |
alike in dignity. In fair Stratford, | :47:06. | :47:21. | |
where we lay our scene, from ancient grudge break | :47:22. | :47:28. | |
to new mutiny. There never was a story | :47:29. | :47:30. | |
of more woe than this - of those who'd stay | :47:31. | :47:41. | |
and those who'd go. You two are best | :47:42. | :47:43. | |
buddies, aren't you? And, has it affected | :47:44. | :47:49. | |
your friendship? We've had some quite | :47:50. | :47:57. | |
heated conversations. Both of my children and their other | :47:58. | :48:00. | |
halves really gave me a severe telling off | :48:01. | :48:10. | |
because I was a Brexiteer. My son is a consultant anaesthetist | :48:11. | :48:15. | |
in the NHS and as soon as we voted for Brexit he said - | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
where's my ?250,000 a week? Do we need to do a big job | :48:20. | :48:23. | |
on mending our relationship I think people have been quite | :48:24. | :48:31. | |
personally insulting to each other, But we weren't about to let those | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
tensions spoil our tea party, not while everyone was having such | :48:37. | :48:43. | |
a good time. The anger has died down from, | :48:44. | :48:49. | |
obviously, the remainers and the leavers as well, you know, | :48:50. | :48:56. | |
almost like a football match But we have to rub our shoulders | :48:57. | :48:59. | |
and we have to be, you know, If every single part of society, | :49:00. | :49:03. | |
every different component part, doesn't put in an effort now to pull | :49:04. | :49:12. | |
together, the great opportunity that Brexit is going to give, | :49:13. | :49:15. | |
over the medium term, will be wasted because so much | :49:16. | :49:18. | |
talent, so much effort, so much Dischuffment is something worthy | :49:19. | :49:21. | |
of that place there, the theatre. How far have we helped | :49:22. | :49:30. | |
today, not much? It's nice to get people together | :49:31. | :49:36. | |
and it's really interesting to see that people voted either way | :49:37. | :49:41. | |
for passionate reasons. Clearing the decks for one last | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
attraction on our Brexit bandstand. It's the men and women | :49:47. | :49:59. | |
of the Shakespeare Morris performing a rarely seen dance | :50:00. | :50:01. | |
of fertility and reconciliation. They eschewed their wooden | :50:02. | :50:04. | |
staves in favour of Steve Smith, the Old | :50:05. | :50:06. | |
Bard, in Stratford. Trouble is, we cant work out | :50:07. | :50:32. | |
whether we can have our cake, We'll see what our panel choose | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
at the end of the show. Weve talked strategy and security, | :50:37. | :50:41. | |
trade and timings but fundamentally this is about something bigger | :50:42. | :50:43. | |
than all that. Its about the kind of | :50:44. | :50:45. | |
country we now become - Joining me now is the historian | :50:46. | :50:47. | |
and writer Max Hastings, former political editor | :50:48. | :50:52. | |
of the Sun Trevor Kavanagh, journalist and film maker Billy JD | :50:53. | :50:54. | |
Porter and the Labour MP Kate Hoey. Warm welcome to all of us. Kate, if | :50:55. | :51:00. | |
I start with you, does it seem to you does it feel like a leap forward | :51:01. | :51:03. | |
or a yearning for the past. What is behind this move? Oh, no, it's very | :51:04. | :51:06. | |
much looking forward and very confident. I feel this is going to | :51:07. | :51:08. | |
really wake the United Kingdom up to being able to look at new ideas, to | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
do things differently. To get that barrier of the straitjacket of the | :51:13. | :51:17. | |
EU, which always hung over us. One of the things that really happened | :51:18. | :51:21. | |
is that people with new ideas can and, you know, interesting things | :51:22. | :51:25. | |
will be able to express that much more. The civil service, which I | :51:26. | :51:30. | |
think has been, kind of, straitjacketed and dmras complacent | :51:31. | :51:34. | |
over the fact that the EU has been there all the time. I think that | :51:35. | :51:37. | |
will wake up. British politics will actually change because we will now | :51:38. | :51:40. | |
know that when we vote for a party and they say they will do something, | :51:41. | :51:43. | |
we can't blame anybody else if they don't do that. Kate speaks with the | :51:44. | :51:48. | |
voice of freedom, a breath of fresh air there? I couldn't disagree more | :51:49. | :51:53. | |
strongly. I have never seen anything so grotesque as a celebration over | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
an expensive divorce. One of the tran disof what is going on, those | :51:58. | :52:02. | |
who wanted Brexit, talk as if Brexit was a policy that was going to do | :52:03. | :52:06. | |
things for Britain. If you look at the major problems facing Britain, | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
huge trade deficit, education system, funding the NHS, funding the | :52:12. | :52:14. | |
welfare system, how to make Britain pay its way in the 2st century, | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
getting out of Europe will do absolutely nothing to advance these | :52:20. | :52:22. | |
things. It may well push them backwards. To me, one of the things | :52:23. | :52:27. | |
I fear, some of us found this a divisive issue at the time of the | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
referendum. I think things are getting worse because those who are | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
triumphalist today about leaving, for some of us it's a backward | :52:37. | :52:41. | |
vision of Britain. They want a Miss Marm Britain, I'm old enough to | :52:42. | :52:44. | |
remember what it was like. Britain today is a much more successful | :52:45. | :52:48. | |
country than it was in the 1950s. The UK, I think, have voted to go | :52:49. | :52:56. | |
back to the 1950s. That is the negativity coming over from a lot of | :52:57. | :53:05. | |
people - A lot of business MEPmen - No, they want to get on with it and | :53:06. | :53:10. | |
see outside the EU. 187 countries are not in the EU. They manage very | :53:11. | :53:15. | |
well. I feel positive and confident. What we want to see now is everybody | :53:16. | :53:19. | |
being able to work to give their own ideas of how this can move us | :53:20. | :53:24. | |
forward and it is very sad that so many people still want to be | :53:25. | :53:27. | |
negative. What will they do to advance the issues I mentioned? | :53:28. | :53:32. | |
Billy, one of the things, you talked about a Miss Marm Britain. If we are | :53:33. | :53:36. | |
recognising there was a generational gap, wasn't there, in the voting, | :53:37. | :53:40. | |
how do you see this? Whether you think you have been saddled with | :53:41. | :53:43. | |
something? Yeah. This wasn't the outcome that people my age wanted. | :53:44. | :53:49. | |
We categorically did not want this result. Jool I think that it's just | :53:50. | :53:54. | |
going to cement this further distrust between young people and | :53:55. | :53:59. | |
people in power here. I think that people my age have a complete lack | :54:00. | :54:02. | |
of faith in politics. Why wouldn't we? We have a Prime Minister that | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
the public didn't vote for. Who is leading a party who have just come | :54:07. | :54:13. | |
out of a huge scandal that, basically, delegitimatises the whole | :54:14. | :54:15. | |
campaign that brought them into power. This must strike a chord for | :54:16. | :54:20. | |
someone so close to political journalism and the establishment? | :54:21. | :54:23. | |
The problem about this sort of view of the way that we now face the | :54:24. | :54:29. | |
future is two dismal by half, as it was indeed during the referendum | :54:30. | :54:32. | |
campaign when we were warned that the world would, basically, end on | :54:33. | :54:37. | |
the 23rd June if we voted out. Nothing of that short happened | :54:38. | :54:40. | |
whatsoever. It's the start of the process. Every single forecast of | :54:41. | :54:48. | |
gloom and doom proved to be wrong and the reverse of the case. We have | :54:49. | :54:52. | |
done extremely well. That is likely to be the case in the coming months | :54:53. | :54:56. | |
and years. It won't be easy. I think the European Union, especially | :54:57. | :54:59. | |
France, is going to make life extremely difficult for us at times. | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
I think in three, four, five years' time we will look back and think | :55:04. | :55:08. | |
with huge relief we have taken the decision. Brexiteers say this is | :55:09. | :55:13. | |
about being more open, more worldly. More outward looking, yet you talk | :55:14. | :55:16. | |
to foreigners in this country, since the Brexit vote who say they have | :55:17. | :55:22. | |
felt increased xenophobia. How do you reconcile those two outlooks? I | :55:23. | :55:27. | |
want very much the decision taken that the EU citizens here and | :55:28. | :55:32. | |
British citizens in the EU will be able to remain and carry on as they | :55:33. | :55:36. | |
have been doing. Not just in policy, in tone, culture and acceptance? All | :55:37. | :55:42. | |
of those things could have happened if we found the EU countries not | :55:43. | :55:46. | |
wanting to engage in that debate. The Prime Minister tried to get this | :55:47. | :55:51. | |
some time ago, an agreement. I do think that once that is settled, I | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
think that will make a huge difference to how people feel | :55:57. | :56:00. | |
because there is a lot of fear being put around when, after all, it's | :56:01. | :56:03. | |
going to be two years before we actually leave and somehow the way | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
the media has put - maybe the fear game is still being played. We have | :56:09. | :56:14. | |
to hope for the best.s when one says the worst does not happen. We had a | :56:15. | :56:18. | |
13% devaluation. Was that good news the fact that the pound is worth - | :56:19. | :56:24. | |
It's regarded as good news. Come on. To respond to what you are asking | :56:25. | :56:28. | |
for. The nitty-gritty of the numbers no-one know what is the answers are. | :56:29. | :56:31. | |
No-one seems to know what is going to happen. Physical you are talking | :56:32. | :56:36. | |
about tone and the way British feel and the way other people feel about | :56:37. | :56:40. | |
Britain, I'm embarrassed. I'm ashamed. When we are children, we | :56:41. | :56:46. | |
are taught about the spirit of inclusion and the strength of team | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
work. You think that's gone with the Brexit vote? It's gone with the most | :56:51. | :56:56. | |
powerful political leaders over the world? I think you are expressing a | :56:57. | :57:00. | |
personal point of view and maybe expressing the view of quite a lot | :57:01. | :57:05. | |
of young people. I don't think it's a majority view. 75% of young | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
people. You have to take into account - You have to take that into | :57:10. | :57:14. | |
account we will be dead quickly than her generation will. They are | :57:15. | :57:18. | |
saddled with something they didn't want? But the point is that there | :57:19. | :57:21. | |
are other things to be considered as well. It's not just Britain wanting | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
to leave the European Union. An awful lot of people across the | :57:26. | :57:29. | |
European Union in countries that you would be surprised by are even more | :57:30. | :57:32. | |
strongly anti-the European Union than we were before the vote. Even | :57:33. | :57:37. | |
the Pope, the Pope of all people, in Rome of all places, was saying, only | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
on the birthday, the 60th birthday of the European Union this weekend, | :57:43. | :57:46. | |
that the European Union is dying. Now, this is not just scare tactics | :57:47. | :57:51. | |
or fear campaigns, this is the mood that is in fact prevailing across | :57:52. | :57:56. | |
the European Union. I agree. Where I don't agree, Michael Heseltine is an | :57:57. | :58:01. | |
old friend of mine. Michael will not accept that the European project has | :58:02. | :58:04. | |
gone horribly wrong. I would agree with you. It has gone horribly | :58:05. | :58:09. | |
wrong. But on the other hand, to some of us the benefits, both - the | :58:10. | :58:14. | |
cultural importance of being part of Europe and also the huge economic | :58:15. | :58:18. | |
advantage - Let me ask you something personal. Would you prefer now the | :58:19. | :58:24. | |
European project to wither away and die. That will give us a sense we've | :58:25. | :58:38. | |
made the right choice? It will. Michael Howard, who is 94, the good | :58:39. | :58:43. | |
Michael Howard, not the politician. He was saying the other week over | :58:44. | :58:48. | |
the referendum he said the great lesson in my long lifetime has been | :58:49. | :58:51. | |
most of the problems are best addressed together with partners and | :58:52. | :58:54. | |
allies however difficult. That is how some of us feel. The idea of | :58:55. | :59:01. | |
people celebrating only fools like Boris Johnson or David Davis will | :59:02. | :59:06. | |
celebrate. I thought in the House of Commons it was a calm and sensible | :59:07. | :59:10. | |
reaction to Theresa May's statement. Thank you very much. We have | :59:11. | :59:12. | |
important work to do, as you know. It's time toll decide what to do | :59:13. | :59:21. | |
with the cake. We weren't allowed the cake knife. We have this one. I | :59:22. | :59:26. | |
have to ask my guests. You can lower the light. Will you have your cake | :59:27. | :59:30. | |
and eat it? I will start with you, Billy? I will eat it because I'm | :59:31. | :59:35. | |
hungry. We will go for the hear. Yeah, the heart of Europe and the | :59:36. | :59:41. | |
heart of Britain. Oh. As we say our goodbyes we leave you with Europeans | :59:42. | :59:44. | |
who wanted to bid farewell in return to us. Good night. | :59:45. | :59:55. | |
Stay. Do go, but please come back home. Hi, Great Britain, it's too | :59:56. | :00:05. | |
bad you are leaving. I'm really going to miss you I'm going to miss | :00:06. | :00:09. | |
from England fish and chips and beer. But you're going to miss all | :00:10. | :00:14. | |
this. It was love at first sight. I thought it was going to be forever. | :00:15. | :00:18. | |
But you just said to me that you don't love me any more. I love your | :00:19. | :00:25. | |
pop culture. If people don't care if they get wasted on a week day. God | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
Save The Queen. You will soon be crawling back. This is very sad | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
indeed. I do appreciate the cheaper pound. Auf Wiedersehen. | :00:34. | :00:56. | |
Hello there, warmest day of the year on the way for Thursday. We start | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
with cloud. We have outbreaks of rain too. That will get pushed | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
northwards and towards the west with most of the wet weather sitting over | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
the Irish Sea allowing brighter | :01:09. | :01:09. |