Article 50 Special Newsnight


Article 50 Special

Evan Davis in Brussels and Emily Maitlis in London start the two-year countdown to Brexit.


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Transcript


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And now the decision to leave has been made, and the process is

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underway, it is time to come together. There is no reason to

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pretend that this is a happy day. We are leaving.

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Control over migration through our own borders and a reassertion of the

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supremacy of our Parliament. That will happen.

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The Prime Minister says no deal it is better than a bad deal, but the

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reality is, no deal is a bad deal. We already miss you. Thank you and

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goodbye. The clock to exit, has started

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counting down as we are helpfully To think a year ago, hardly anyone

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had heard of Article 50, now it is the framework

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by which our future Welcome to Brussels -

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We'll head to London later in the programme,

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and to Berlin. But it is THIS city that has become

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a by-word in the UK, for bureaucracy and barmy

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directives, for remote rule Fair or unfair, those

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associations are now irrelevant. Not for the first time,

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we are redefining our relationship with the continent that sits 21

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miles away from us. Theresa May put on a conciliatory

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tone in the commons today. I have set out a clear and ambitious

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plan for the negotiations ahead. It is a plan for a new deep

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and special partnership between A partnership of values,

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a partnership of interest, a partnership based on cooperation

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in areas such as security and economic affairs

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and a partnership that works in the best interests

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of the United Kingdom, the European Union and the wider

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world. Because, perhaps now,

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more than ever, the world needs the liberal democratic

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values of Europe. "Deep and special partnership"

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are words she repeated. The British government's letter

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triggering Article 50 was hand delivered to Donald Tusk -

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a very nineteenth And that acknowledgement meant,

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the clock to our exit Unless we agree on something

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different, it's 730 days away. Not for the first time,

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we will be separate. You can look back to the Roman

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empire or the Reformation to see that we have long had an ambivalent

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relationship with the continent. Perhaps this historic moment fits

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that historic pattern. Membership actually came after years

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of dithering. After the war we said no but then we said yes and then the

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French said no, followed by yes and then we said yes but now we say no.

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Maybe Brexit is just the latest manifestation of Britain's on-off

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relationship with the continent, through the centuries we have

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struggled to settle the matter of how to engage without committing to

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Europe. We have a tendency to think of Europe as a unified entity on the

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other side of the channel with which we

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either engage or do not. It is a frame of mind that comes out of the

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19th century, the idea of splendid isolation and the idea that we have

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our own perpetual interest and perpetual enemies and allies. Other

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nations found solace in the newly constructed European institutions,

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having lived through a war and crises on their own. The British

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public never really got behind of Brussels and its ways. Perhaps we

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confused it with Eurovision, except when we joined the Common Market, it

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was possible to think that we had settled the matter and we were now

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taking Europe seriously. # Taking power to all our friends.

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That very year Cliff Richard came third with power to all our friends,

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a song for a new constructive era. Back then and that sporadic other

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bomb moments, you could genuinely think that post-imperial Britain had

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found a new home for itself here in Brussels, but we were never quite in

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sync. We were never really all that comfortable. It took a decade for

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Labour to reluctantly reconcile itself to membership of the Common

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Market and by then, the Conservatives were turning

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sceptical. And in our 44 years of EU membership we have had more than 44

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arguments, over treaties and social chapters, budgets and bent bananas.

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For any marriage to be durable, the partners have to grow, develop and

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change together and the Common Market did change. The EEC became

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the EU, the nine members became 28, the one thing that did not change

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though, was that British ambivalence. If anything, it grew.

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Our separation captured by this moment, Gordon Brown signing Bill

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lives bomb treaty on his own, I'm keen to make a big deal of it. The

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other member celebrated together, thinking of it as a new constitution

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for Europe. So now, we forge a new relationship. This is an historic

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moment, from which there can be no turning back. Britain is leaving the

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European Union. Can we finally settle the matter once and for all?

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Good luck with that. At one level you might say that the EU is less

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binary than it used to be, less about in or out, it can be by

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curious, dabble in the bits we like, reject the bits we do not like and

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even the remaining members recognise it is to big for one size fits all,

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flexibility has to be part of their future. We are all grown-ups, that

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is the modern way. But, when it comes to us and flexibility, we have

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only allowed ourselves two years to negotiate something we have been

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grappling with four two sentries and are we all grown-ups? Human emotion

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is at play, nowhere more so than in the European Parliament itself. It

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is going to be complicated. While we have been ambivalent about the EU,

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over the 44 years, the public have merrily reached out to Europe for

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business and pleasure. Those auto industry supply chains, testify to

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deeper links with Europe than to the EU. But the EU might get in the way

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of those relationships with Europe. In so many areas, from regulation of

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trade in nuclear materials to rules governing aviation, there is room

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for the others to cause trouble, without even thinking about trading

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goods and services. Who knows how it will go. It is now those

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institutions about which we have been so very ambivalent that will be

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shaping our future. There are several

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presidents of the EU - Donald Tusk for the Council,

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Jean-Claude Juncker And I sat down with the President

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of the European Parliament, The Parliament does have the power

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to veto a deal and has suggested Mr Tajani had hot-footed

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it to me straight from Yes, we had a very good

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conversation, very constructive. Both we want an agreement,

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win win and then after the Brexit, our opinion is, we need

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to have a good cooperation. Tomorrow, the United Kingdom will be

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outside the European Union, but it will still be Europe,

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it is important, to work together, You mentioned terrorism,

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many people say, her letter to you is a threat, it is blackmail,

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it says we want a deal on the economy and on security

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and links the two. If Britain links security

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and economy, how will you react? We need to work

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for global agreement. General agreement is

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the most important point. But, the cooperation against

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the terrorists is a priority. Also, without an agreement in other

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sectors, we need to cooperate The first issue is money,

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the bill for the UK to pay. I think millions

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and millions of euro. And my understanding is we talk

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about the money and we can also talk about broad principles on our future

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partnership, correct, Before, we need to achieve

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an agreement on the Brexit and then, it is possible to decide our future,

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our good relations, but before we need to decide the divorce,

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because without the divorce, it is impossible to decide

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the day after the divorce! We need to know what the UK

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will give us afterwards. It could be a financial

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problem for us! Also, financial, but I think

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it is important to have a good framework before and then,

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it is possible to achieve a good agreement for the future,

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but it is important that we have a good

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framework for the Brexit. Do you think Britain maybe one day

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will want to come back But, but, we need an agreement

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with the 27 member states. If the UK wants to change

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its position, I think What is your message today to 48%

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of the UK population They are losing their

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European citizenship, You can sell passports to them,

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European passports? They are citizens of

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the United Kingdom, They are European, but they are not

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citizens of the European Union now. I think we need to respect the vote,

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the referendum, the democracy, but I think we look at these people,

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because I think in the UK, there are a lot of pro-European

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citizens against the Brexit. We need to have good relationships

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with them in the future. Early 2019, the deal goes

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to the European Parliament, you have to vote for it

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or against it, the deal is better than no deal, but not as good

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as the deal you want. It does not have your red lines,

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it does not have all Do you vote for it or do

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you vote against it? I think my personal position,

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we need to achieve a good agreement. With, the most important point

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of the European Parliament. The agreement, win-win,

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is not the agreement. We need to be very pragmatic,

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but at the same time, we need to strengthen the rights

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of citizens, not only Europeans, but also the UK citizens,

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and I think it is possible to achieve this goal, finally,

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but we need to read the content For all his optimism,

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I'd say sadness not anger But we'll be back a little

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later to test that. We'll be back in Brussels later,

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but now to the day here. Theresa May was on her feet

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for three hours this afternoon, and struck a tone that looked rather

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different to some of the bravado There was an acknowledgment

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that there would be 'consequences' for Britain's departure -

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perhaps even a tacit And she went further: suggesting

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in no uncertain terms that failure to reach an agreement would mean

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Britain's cooperation in the fight How did Security become

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contingent on trade? Is it the start of dirty talk -

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either to Europe, Nick Watt our political editor

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is here - how did you read today? Rule number one of reporting the

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modern Conservative Party is to be careful of saying it is united on

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Europe. Eurosceptics were delirious today and pro-Europeans were

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delighted that the Prime Minister reached out to the EU by saying that

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the world needs the Liberal democratic values of Europe and that

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really set the tone for that two-year road to Brexit. One Cabinet

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minister told me today that we might not actually read the political

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negotiations until next January. We have the German elections in

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September and last time it took two months to form a government. That

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means that we might just have ten months of intense political

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negotiations before we reach the informal deadline of October, 2018

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so we can have six months of ratification. Before we get to all

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of that there is the small matter of triggering article 15. Here is my

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film on the Prime Minister's day. David Cameron warned if would amount

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to the gamble of the century. Today, Theresa May was hailed as the person

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of this century as she showed her hand, nine months after the UK voted

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to leave the EU. Downing Street has spent months sweating about how to

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play their hand over the triggering of Article 50. In the end, Britain's

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ambassador to the EU handed over a relatively short letter which

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combined words of comfort and words of warning. The Prime Minister's two

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audiences - eurosceptics in Britain and the remaining 27 members of the

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EU. To eurosceptics, the Prime Minister hailed a historic moment

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that will be irreversible, but in a mild toning down of her rhetoric

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about a sunny Brexit future, she warned of what she called

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"consequences." Britain won't be present when rules for the European

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single market are drawn up. To the rest of the EU, the Prime Minister

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spoke of her desire to forge a deep and special partnership. But there

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was also an unmistakable warning that failure to agree a UK-EU deal

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would weaken co-operation in the fight against terrorism. The tone

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today was, I thought, a little reminder to the European Union that,

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actually, there is a lot in this for them as much as there is for us if

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we strike a reasonable agreement. The reality is that the UK actually

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is needed in a whole lot of areas of the European Union, not just trade,

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not just co-operation. In that sense, the co-operation on security,

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intelligence and policing. This message appeared not to be

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appreciated in the EU where it was seen as something of a threat.

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Theresa May's Labour redcressor as Home Secretary thought she had

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another audience in mind. I think the whole of that letter was a

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warning to her Eurosceptics and a bit on the security was

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predominantly about that. There were orbits of the letter, warning

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business that is they won't - they it will have more pew rocky to deal

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with to trade into the biggest commercial market on our doorstep.

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There was a hint of realism. Tony Blair in that phrase said it was the

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swivel eyed ones driving the bus. Maybe Theresa May has wrenched the

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wheel off of them. One pro-European Tory believes the Prime Minister was

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thinking of those who have no fear of leaving the EU without a deal. I

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think it demonstrates the very real adverse consequences of crashing out

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without a deal. It's showing it's not just about trade and WTO, but

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it's about losing security co-operation. That is a message for

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Europe and for those here in the UK who are saying that somehow no deal

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is a good option. That is one of the things I put to the Prime Minister

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today. She made it very clear she said - I'm really keen to get a good

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deal. This was unquestionably a day of high stakes, but our ever

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cautious Prime Minister went out of her way with messages carefully

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crafted for her various audiences to Sehwag's no reckless gambler. Nick

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Watt there. As you heard, Theresa May

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mentioned security 11 times The EU's chief Brexit negotiator,

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Guy Verhofstadt, accused the Prime Minister of a threat

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to weaken security commitments to the EU if Britain

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was denied a trade deal. So when I spoke earlier

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to Damien Green, the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions,

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and one of Theresa May's most trusted colleagues in Cabinet,

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I started off by asking him It's not a threat, I think that's

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the misunderstanding. There was no threat

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in the Prime Minister's letter. All right, she says "in security

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terms a failure to reach agreement would mean our co-operation

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in the fight against crime Just explain to us then

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what would be weakened in the event of no trade deal,

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what would happen? Well, we have institutions

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inside the European Union of which we are part,

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which allow us to have daily, Things like the European Arrest

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Warrant and various things We can't divorce that

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from a trade deal? Obviously, we want a trade deal

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and obviously we want a security deal as well as part of the overall

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negotiations because we want there to be -

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So why can't we have a security deal It has been all bound

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up in our membership of the European Union,

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so what we want is a deal It's a way of saying,

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if you don't give us what we want, then we won't help

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you with security? I mean, the phrase you read out,

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the sentence you read out from the Prime Minister,

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is a statement that it's "We must work hard to

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avoid that outcome." Would we will be less willing then

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to share intelligence? Would we be less willing

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to extradite suspects or, as you say, deploy troops to protect

:20:46.:20:48.

Europe? We're still able to

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do all those things. We can do the last one

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because that's part of Nato, Well, sharing intelligence,

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that requires legal protocols. You can't just share intelligence

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without a legal basis for doing it. Those don't just disappear just

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because a trade deal isn't there? they disappear at the moment

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if you're not a member That's why we want to recast

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them because, I agree, of course these things

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are very important. They are important to our safety

:21:27.:21:27.

and important to the safety How does it even serve our own

:21:28.:21:30.

country's interest to suggest that that might be under threat or off

:21:31.:21:34.

the table now. The fact that we're leaving

:21:35.:21:36.

the European Union means that certain legal - things

:21:37.:21:40.

that we can now do legally, including intelligence co-operation,

:21:41.:21:43.

needs to have a new legal basis She said, ?in security terms,

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failure to reach an agreement would mean our co-operation

:21:46.:21:52.

in the fight against crime Because the things we can do legally

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as a member of the European Union, we couldn't do if we weren't

:21:56.:22:02.

a member of the European Union and we didn't reach

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a security agreement. It's - You're comfortable

:22:06.:22:07.

with that position? It's a very sensible point to make

:22:08.:22:09.

that there are huge numbers of areas where we want

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very close co-operation. It's a deal in other

:22:13.:22:14.

areas, like security. In this post-deal world

:22:15.:22:20.

that we have to imagine, what will the divorce

:22:21.:22:23.

settlement look like? Well, we haven't had anything formal

:22:24.:22:25.

back from the European Union yet. As you say, there are lots

:22:26.:22:30.

of numbers swirling around, but actually, until the negotiations

:22:31.:22:35.

start, I think Donald Tusk made clear today,

:22:36.:22:41.

that they will have their negotiating mandate ready

:22:42.:22:44.

by the end of April. So, at that point, it might be

:22:45.:22:46.

sensible to start talking money. Theresa May said the days of vast

:22:47.:22:51.

contributions will end. So it won't look like

:22:52.:22:54.

?200 million a week? Well, the days of large

:22:55.:23:03.

contributions will end but, however hard you try, you're not

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going to get me on what numbers we're aiming at because that

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would not be in the interests Yeah, but the British

:23:10.:23:12.

people are feeling really As you say, we had

:23:13.:23:15.

numbers on the bus. We've had numbers contradicted

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before Brexit, after Brexit. We know that we pay around

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?200 million a week. Tell us that we won't pay more

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than that at the end of this deal? Well, I mean, Philip Hammond has

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made clear that the sort of outer end of the figures

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aren't remotely realistic. So we won't pay more

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than ?200 million a week We will, obviously,

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we will pay for projects But, you know, what those

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projects are and, therefore, what the numbers are,

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it's way too early to say. But if part of the attraction

:23:48.:23:51.

of this was getting hold of our finances again,

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choosing what we buy and what we don't and what we send

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and what we don't, we are not You must be able to rule

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that out, can't you? We won't end up paying

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the same amount after... We will only be paying

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for things that are in You are quite right to say,

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we will be able to take our own decisions as to how we spend

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the money and there some European projects that we may

:24:17.:24:18.

wish to play a part in that What the numbers are,

:24:19.:24:22.

that's for the negotiations. Jonathan Hill was our man

:24:23.:24:30.

in Brussels until the Brexit vote. He resigned almost immediately

:24:31.:24:32.

afterwards from his post as EU He understands the mechanics

:24:33.:24:35.

of this day and the days Nice of you to come in Lord Hill. Do

:24:36.:24:46.

you think this will have momentum now. We are only four hours into

:24:47.:24:50.

this, it feels like a lifetime already? It's clearly, we are right

:24:51.:24:53.

at the beginning. I think the first thing we all need to do is take a

:24:54.:24:58.

deep breath and actually I think the intelligent way to think about the

:24:59.:25:01.

negotiation, in a way, it's slightly the other way round. Start with -

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where do we want to end up? One of the things about the European

:25:07.:25:09.

system, that I think people don't always appreciate over here, where

:25:10.:25:15.

we tend to think of it as being a bureaucratic inflexible system. It

:25:16.:25:19.

has some of those characteristics as well, it can, at the same time, be a

:25:20.:25:23.

highly flexible and political system. If it wants to do a deal,

:25:24.:25:31.

then a lot of these really complicated, technical issues can be

:25:32.:25:35.

sorted. Can be magically resolved. It's about hearts right now, not

:25:36.:25:40.

mechanics? I think a lot of it is about the heart and where he we want

:25:41.:25:45.

to get to, in terms of a new relationship, a new partnership at

:25:46.:25:51.

the end of it. We've done an awful lot in recent months talking about

:25:52.:25:55.

all the things that divide us. We haven't done very.

:25:56.:25:57.

About the things we have in common. Actually, the thing that strikes me

:25:58.:26:02.

about it is our shared history, our shared values and the fact that

:26:03.:26:05.

we're going to have a shared future. I thought Mrs May picked up some of

:26:06.:26:10.

that in her letter. She did. She told the BBC this evening that a

:26:11.:26:14.

comprehensive free trade agreement is possible. There would be a

:26:15.:26:18.

different relationship but with the same benefits. She outlined

:26:19.:26:21.

something similar to what we have now. You could have kept the

:26:22.:26:31.

portfolio, couldn't you? Things will have to cleaning a bit. When you

:26:32.:26:35.

have any policy change, whatever size it is, you know that there are

:26:36.:26:42.

always winners and losers. So we're about to set out on some of the

:26:43.:26:46.

biggest set of policy changes that we've been through in the last 40,

:26:47.:26:51.

50 years. Clearly, there are going to be parts of the economy that will

:26:52.:26:56.

be affected by the change. There will be some where there will be new

:26:57.:26:59.

opportunities. I think the way to think about it is to move on a bit

:27:00.:27:04.

from the slightlister rile polarised political debate we have and think

:27:05.:27:09.

about how can you minimise the downsize. How can you maximise the

:27:10.:27:12.

opportunity. How can you get on with it as fast as you possibly can? Do

:27:13.:27:17.

you think that tone was right. On the one hand we were saying it's

:27:18.:27:21.

conciliatory. She put out something akin to blackmail, didn't she, with

:27:22.:27:25.

the security threat. Damian Green disagrees with me. It sounded like -

:27:26.:27:29.

we will withdraw what we want, what we have on the table if we don't get

:27:30.:27:34.

stuff? I didn't read it as a blackmail threat. I read it as being

:27:35.:27:39.

a sensible way of trying to identify the things that we've got in common.

:27:40.:27:43.

Because I think, if you think about this from a European point of view,

:27:44.:27:48.

someone like me, who wishes the European Union well and wants the

:27:49.:27:52.

European continent to flourish, they need as much as we do to get through

:27:53.:27:57.

this process speedily. I think it's important for them that the message

:27:58.:28:01.

they communicate to the outside world is, actually, the EU can deal

:28:02.:28:05.

with something like this, take it in its stride and move on. They've got

:28:06.:28:09.

big issues of their own that they need to address. I think, for them,

:28:10.:28:16.

to approach it in a constructive way as we can makes sense economically

:28:17.:28:19.

and to try and secure and keep some of the things that we want to have

:28:20.:28:23.

in common. Then to get on with the things that they want to do to

:28:24.:28:26.

secure the future of the European Union. Lord Hill. Thank you. Thank

:28:27.:28:28.

you. Now back to Brussels and Evan. It was perhaps a myth to think

:28:29.:28:35.

that Brussels has been the centre of power in Europe,

:28:36.:28:38.

it's more the meeting point, No, the real power lies

:28:39.:28:41.

with the governments of the EU, and politics will probably shape

:28:42.:28:46.

the European offer to the UK. No capital is more

:28:47.:28:48.

important than Berlin, and our diplomatic editor,

:28:49.:28:50.

Mark Urban, is there for us. Mark, this has been

:28:51.:28:55.

no surprise today. What's Angela Merkel

:28:56.:28:57.

been saying about it? Well, it's very interesting to see

:28:58.:29:06.

the degree of message control, if you like, that goes from here to the

:29:07.:29:10.

key institutions. The German line is very similar to the one that the

:29:11.:29:14.

President of the European Parliament gave to you earlier - let's get the

:29:15.:29:18.

circumstances of the so-called divorce straight before we move on

:29:19.:29:22.

to talking about the bigger relationship, any trade details,

:29:23.:29:27.

that kind of thing. Now, key to this divorce issue is the British

:29:28.:29:30.

contribution in paying out the remainder of the budget period. If

:29:31.:29:34.

the Brits carry on refusing to pay, I think we can be confident the

:29:35.:29:37.

Germans will simply wait them out for as many months as that seems to

:29:38.:29:42.

be happening. They really want to avoid a knife fight between EU

:29:43.:29:46.

countries over who makes up the shortfall. Then there is the issue

:29:47.:29:50.

of foreign nationals. Some European countries are tougher on these

:29:51.:29:55.

issues. Some are less so. Of course, as Europe's economic powerhouse with

:29:56.:30:00.

by far the largest contribution to its budget, Germany's attitude will

:30:01.:30:02.

be pivotal. The day started with news

:30:03.:30:08.

that the Brexit phoney war, those months between the referendum

:30:09.:30:13.

and today, was over. Many German politicians had hoped

:30:14.:30:17.

that Britain would change its mind The number of people in Britain that

:30:18.:30:21.

think that the decision was right to leave the European Union will go

:30:22.:30:32.

down and down and, at the end of the day, the British Government

:30:33.:30:36.

has to decide whether they should follow the way or that they should

:30:37.:30:40.

probably follow the change in mood I think, in every stage

:30:41.:30:43.

of the negotiations, the German government and German

:30:44.:30:47.

politics will say, OK, we accept to stop and to

:30:48.:30:50.

throwaway that letter. Article 50 is reversible

:30:51.:31:00.

then, in your view? Like many countries though, Germany

:31:01.:31:02.

has plenty of other priorities, that the offices of Bildt,

:31:03.:31:05.

the biggest selling paper, the editor explained why today's

:31:06.:31:08.

news hadn't even made People in Germany worry a lot more

:31:09.:31:10.

about Donald Trump right now They actually haven't been worried

:31:11.:31:15.

about Brexit last year before the referendum because no-one

:31:16.:31:20.

thought it was possible I think there was a mix of regret,

:31:21.:31:22.

but also lack of interest. Thinking, oh, it's the British again

:31:23.:31:29.

wanting their own way. Many Germans maybe slow

:31:30.:31:36.

to pick up on what this process will now involve,

:31:37.:31:38.

but for some there are At this English bookshop,

:31:39.:31:41.

Another Country, we met British expats whose fate,

:31:42.:31:45.

along with that of EU citizens in Britain,

:31:46.:31:48.

ranks among the most I've been in Germany quite

:31:49.:31:49.

a long time and I feel like Britain has, kind of,

:31:50.:31:57.

abandoned me personally almost. It's a very personal

:31:58.:32:01.

reaction, I think. People in the UK, I'm sure, can look

:32:02.:32:05.

at Trump and go - oh, he's a joke. The whole says he's

:32:06.:32:09.

a joke, it's clear. But when they look at Brexit

:32:10.:32:15.

they don't understand that the whole world,

:32:16.:32:17.

including Germany, anywhere that's broadly

:32:18.:32:19.

similar it's like - Why Germany's leader said today that

:32:20.:32:20.

issues relating to separation, such as expats and the UK's share

:32:21.:32:27.

of the EU budget, will have to come first before any talks

:32:28.:32:31.

on the wider relationship. Many here don't rate Britain's

:32:32.:32:37.

chances of exploiting splits German priorities will be -

:32:38.:32:40.

how can we find a unified position and protecting the integrity

:32:41.:32:48.

of the European Union. That is Germany's

:32:49.:32:50.

number one priority. Divide and rule strategy will

:32:51.:33:02.

probably backfire. Talking to politicians here since the

:33:03.:33:07.

referendum, I have heard regret, surprise and even scorn, but very

:33:08.:33:11.

little understanding of why so many Britons voted to leave. For many

:33:12.:33:17.

Germans, the EU's interests and their own national interests are

:33:18.:33:22.

indistinguishable and may well lead this country to take some tough

:33:23.:33:27.

negotiating positions. I expect that Europe should concentrate on more

:33:28.:33:34.

forward-looking things and sorry to say, foolish decision to leave the

:33:35.:33:39.

European Union. Now negotiations begin in earnest, but with many of

:33:40.:33:42.

the key leaders here is still utterly puzzled by Britain's

:33:43.:33:46.

decision, reaching common understandings by not be easy.

:33:47.:33:50.

Let's continue the discussion with two members of

:33:51.:33:52.

Ska Keller is a Green MEP from Germany and Robert Ziller

:33:53.:33:56.

is a Latvian MEP, on the right, in the European Conservatives

:33:57.:33:58.

Thank you for joining us. First of all, very briefly on security, did

:33:59.:34:14.

you think that the British were trying to blackmail Europeans were

:34:15.:34:19.

some words on security? If you read the Prime Minister's letter,

:34:20.:34:25.

sentence by sentence, but the issue is serious, the security for my

:34:26.:34:30.

region and Poland, security is very important. What did you think? With

:34:31.:34:35.

a British trying to say something by putting the sentences next to each

:34:36.:34:40.

other? It certainly did raise the attention of everyone reading it. It

:34:41.:34:44.

was clear that the Prime Minister was trying to find something where

:34:45.:34:48.

she could say, I'm putting my eggs in the basket, I am not sure that

:34:49.:34:53.

this will solve many issues, because security is important, but most

:34:54.:35:00.

sites stand to lose. Both sides stand to lose if we do not reach an

:35:01.:35:04.

economic deal, isn't that really the point? We all stand to lose on

:35:05.:35:09.

anything and that is maybe what she was driving home. We all stand to

:35:10.:35:14.

lose and that is why it is a sad day today. It is very sad and indeed,

:35:15.:35:21.

for as it is important that in the future we have close corporation

:35:22.:35:24.

with the people in Great Britain, many of whom have actually voted to

:35:25.:35:29.

remain in the European Union but it is also clear that when you leave a

:35:30.:35:35.

union like this, you cannot keep all the privileges that come with

:35:36.:35:42.

membership. I really see some concerns, we saw a draft resolution,

:35:43.:35:52.

, but there are paragraphs about Article 50 and a real sense that you

:35:53.:35:55.

have to agree on the divorce that was drawn and at the same time, you

:35:56.:35:59.

have to agree on the framework for future relations and if you read the

:36:00.:36:06.

resolution, you can see that there can only be finalisation of the

:36:07.:36:11.

divorce and only when the UK became a separate country, only then we

:36:12.:36:14.

will make an agreement about how we will trade and do the economy. I

:36:15.:36:19.

think it is the wrong approach and it should be fixed. Do you think the

:36:20.:36:25.

Parliament is getting it wrong? Not only Parliament. I think some member

:36:26.:36:31.

states reported the same issue. I would support the majority decision

:36:32.:36:37.

of the Parliament, because it would be very schizophrenic as the

:36:38.:36:41.

European Union doing a deal with one of our still members. At least the

:36:42.:36:46.

principles, we have to be clear about how we settle the separation

:36:47.:36:49.

before we can talk about the future. What about the money? To see how

:36:50.:36:55.

much we are willing to give, before we know how willing and flexible you

:36:56.:37:00.

will be on the issues that matter to us, it

:37:01.:37:25.

is not reasonable, is it? On the money issue, it is clear that we

:37:26.:37:29.

have taken collective decisions where the UK was part of. The UK

:37:30.:37:32.

cannot run away from it, if you have a divorce, you cannot say forget

:37:33.:37:35.

about the kids, I will not pay for it. You have to contribute if you

:37:36.:37:38.

want to leave the European Union. On the money issue, you have two sides,

:37:39.:37:40.

liabilities and assets. Everyone speaks about liabilities. You have

:37:41.:37:44.

to buy our share out. I hide -- I think we have to be fair on money.

:37:45.:37:48.

If you think about money and nothing else, I think it is wrong. Come the

:37:49.:37:54.

vote you have in the European Parliament, you have to take it or

:37:55.:37:57.

leave it, you will ultimately take it if it is better than no deal at

:37:58.:38:02.

all, isn't that right? All the posturing is irrelevant. If you are

:38:03.:38:06.

faced with a deal that is bad but better than nothing, you have to

:38:07.:38:11.

take it. The Parliament, with its resolution that we are going to vote

:38:12.:38:15.

on next week, if it is adopted, it will make clear, there are some

:38:16.:38:19.

strong points. When it comes to the rights of citizens of the EU in the

:38:20.:38:24.

UK, this will be watched very carefully and also the financial

:38:25.:38:28.

issue and many other issues and the Parliament has proven, it's a had no

:38:29.:38:33.

too bad deals. We need to leave it there. One strategy, if someone

:38:34.:38:42.

really wants to punish the UK because of Brexit, because other

:38:43.:38:46.

member states don't follow in the future, it is a risky strategy. We

:38:47.:38:50.

can say what kind of union will exist in the future. I think we have

:38:51.:39:00.

to... No punishment, but very fair. We need to leave it there.

:39:01.:39:03.

I started by asking whether any new deal will settle

:39:04.:39:05.

It's not the question the rest of Europe are asking -

:39:06.:39:09.

The direction is set but, in the UK, the arguments continue, which takes

:39:10.:39:14.

It's no secret that Europe has brought more Conservative leaders

:39:15.:39:22.

closer to destruction than virtually any other policy.

:39:23.:39:25.

David Cameron knew of the dangers of banging on about Europe.

:39:26.:39:29.

He went in with eyes wide open, but he was still felled by Europe.

:39:30.:39:33.

Today marks perhaps the high watermark for Conservative

:39:34.:39:34.

Eurosceptics that they themselves never believed would happen.

:39:35.:39:36.

In a moment, we'll speak to one of those, MP Jacob Rees Mogg,

:39:37.:39:39.

but first to one of the last of the Europhile big beasts -

:39:40.:39:43.

Nice to see you. How does today feel to you? It is the day in which

:39:44.:40:00.

Britain lost more power and influence than any other day of my

:40:01.:40:07.

peacetime life. We have got influence still, haven't we? We will

:40:08.:40:11.

see. You don't believe that we wield any cards in this deal at all? I

:40:12.:40:17.

don't think so. You might have heard Lauderhill, he said there would be a

:40:18.:40:22.

lot of heartache at the beginning, a lot of people, the slanging match

:40:23.:40:26.

that comes at the beginning of a break-up, people will think

:40:27.:40:29.

rationally, we have to succeed and Europe has to succeed. We might get

:40:30.:40:35.

a deal, but it will be significantly worse than our present position. How

:40:36.:40:40.

do you feel regarding your own party now? You have seen the slings and

:40:41.:40:47.

arrows of Europe and what it has thrown up for the Conservatives, is

:40:48.:40:53.

that debate now over? Know. Every Conservative Prime Minister that I

:40:54.:40:56.

have worked for since the war, including the present one, has

:40:57.:41:04.

argued logically that our national self interest is inextricably

:41:05.:41:07.

interwoven with Europe. Theresa May's speech in April last year was

:41:08.:41:11.

highly impressive. She has changed her mind. I haven't. You are still

:41:12.:41:17.

going to fight on? I am going to do my best to ensure that Parliament,

:41:18.:41:22.

the sovereign guardian of our country has the chance to make the

:41:23.:41:26.

key decisions and I am going to do my best to articulate the

:41:27.:41:32.

frustrations of the 48% who voted against leaving, who feel better

:41:33.:41:36.

that they are being ignored and that their voices not been heard. I will

:41:37.:41:44.

do my best to give them some sort of voice. Some will look and say this

:41:45.:41:47.

is an extraordinary thing, you have got the most popular Conservative

:41:48.:41:50.

Prime Minister for a lifetime, the Brexiteers won fair and square, you

:41:51.:41:54.

must accept that you are out of touch with your party and with the

:41:55.:41:58.

direction the country is going on now. In public life, you can decide

:41:59.:42:06.

value are there. I have views. They happen to be the views of my party

:42:07.:42:11.

all my political life and I have not seen any evidence at all that I

:42:12.:42:16.

should change them. And so, I have only ever voted against my party

:42:17.:42:20.

twice on substantive issues, on the race relations Bill, three weeks

:42:21.:42:24.

later, the party changed its mind, on the poll tax and that enabled

:42:25.:42:28.

John Major to win a decisive victory. We will see whether I am

:42:29.:42:33.

right or wrong. The party can still change is mine? Certainly. The

:42:34.:42:37.

essence of where we are today, is not the phraseology of the letter,

:42:38.:42:43.

or what matters, is what the Europeans tell us they are prepared

:42:44.:42:48.

to do as a deal. Effectively, if I may put it graphically, at the

:42:49.:42:54.

moment, we sit on the Council of ministers, we influence, British

:42:55.:42:57.

self interest, the largest trading partner that we. Tomorrow, they will

:42:58.:43:06.

make the decisions about the trading conditions, the law, the

:43:07.:43:09.

specifications and we won't even have an empty chair in the Council

:43:10.:43:14.

of ministers arguing for British self interest. Thank you very much.

:43:15.:43:20.

You heard Lord Heseltine there speaking directly, saying that we

:43:21.:43:23.

have given up more power than he has seen in his lifetime today. I

:43:24.:43:28.

fundamentally disagree. We have taken power back to the United

:43:29.:43:33.

Kingdom. You have to remember that the rules of the European Union

:43:34.:43:37.

affect 100% our economy and only 13% of our economy trades with Europe.

:43:38.:43:43.

We have been receiving rules passed by qualified majority vote that the

:43:44.:43:46.

British electorate could not stop, democratically, the only way they

:43:47.:43:50.

could stop them was by leaving the European Union. 87% of the economy

:43:51.:43:55.

is not dependent on the EU, so we have reclaimed power. No one really

:43:56.:43:59.

knows what is coming next, Damian Green could not even guarantee we

:44:00.:44:00.

would be paying less for the EU after we left! It is a ridiculous

:44:01.:44:18.

setup! It is obvious we will be playing less. All future events are

:44:19.:44:21.

unknown. That is the nature of mankind, you don't know what the

:44:22.:44:23.

weather will be like tomorrow. You do not move into a house that you

:44:24.:44:26.

have never seen before without having some sense of what you are

:44:27.:44:29.

buying. We know exactly what we will be doing in that sense because this

:44:30.:44:32.

is what we did prior to joining the European Union, we are going to

:44:33.:44:34.

control our own destiny, we are a member of the Security Council and

:44:35.:44:37.

of Nato and in terms of our international influence we are

:44:38.:44:39.

stronger because we are doing it for ourselves. Take the World Trade

:44:40.:44:48.

Organisation, we all have or own feed on the WTO,. That is a better

:44:49.:44:51.

position. I want to talk about the party, because we have both a view

:44:52.:44:54.

from the Conservative Party here and yet you could not be further apart.

:44:55.:44:59.

Does it feel to you like the disagreements are there, do you feel

:45:00.:45:03.

you can walk on and leave the likes of Lord Heseltine behind? He is an

:45:04.:45:07.

enormously distinguished member of the party who has been a loyal

:45:08.:45:12.

supporter and servant for decades. There is no question of leaving him

:45:13.:45:18.

behind. I went to speak to Dominic Grieve and other than on the EU, I

:45:19.:45:22.

agreed with almost everything he says. This is indeed a full-time

:45:23.:45:27.

party and has been for a long time, but there are many issues were many

:45:28.:45:30.

Conservatives agree on a whole range of issues and actually, I think once

:45:31.:45:35.

we have left, it will be a real opportunity for the party to

:45:36.:45:39.

reunite. People are entitled, of course, to argue for positions they

:45:40.:45:46.

have held for many years. It's said that the British

:45:47.:45:54.

were surprised to find their famous tolerance and phlegm severely tested

:45:55.:45:57.

by the Brexit vote. Work colleagues, even husbands

:45:58.:45:59.

and wives, woke up last June Here at Newsnight, we felt

:46:00.:46:01.

that our cherished public service remit was meaningless unless we did

:46:02.:46:05.

a little to pour oil So that's exactly

:46:06.:46:08.

what we did - a little. We sent Stephen Smith

:46:09.:46:11.

to Stratford-upon-Avon, where the breakdown of the vote

:46:12.:46:12.

mirrored the national trend, to see if he could organise

:46:13.:46:15.

a reconciliation tea party So Newsnight said to me -

:46:16.:46:21.

we want you to close our special three hour Brexit programme,

:46:22.:46:25.

why don't you go to Stratford-upon-Avon,

:46:26.:46:29.

where the voters were very divided and see if leavers and remainers

:46:30.:46:31.

can be friends again. This I'll be perfect,

:46:32.:46:35.

let's do the show right here. Put on a little function, they said,

:46:36.:46:42.

on the very British basis that there's nothing that can't be solved

:46:43.:46:46.

by lashings of tea and cake and Morris dancing,

:46:47.:46:51.

of which more later. Spring draws on in Stratford,

:46:52.:46:57.

high time we heard from the Swan of Avon himself, on the vexed

:46:58.:47:02.

question of divided houses. Two households, both

:47:03.:47:05.

alike in dignity. In fair Stratford,

:47:06.:47:21.

where we lay our scene, from ancient grudge break

:47:22.:47:28.

to new mutiny. There never was a story

:47:29.:47:30.

of more woe than this - of those who'd stay

:47:31.:47:41.

and those who'd go. You two are best

:47:42.:47:43.

buddies, aren't you? And, has it affected

:47:44.:47:49.

your friendship? We've had some quite

:47:50.:47:57.

heated conversations. Both of my children and their other

:47:58.:48:00.

halves really gave me a severe telling off

:48:01.:48:10.

because I was a Brexiteer. My son is a consultant anaesthetist

:48:11.:48:15.

in the NHS and as soon as we voted for Brexit he said -

:48:16.:48:19.

where's my ?250,000 a week? Do we need to do a big job

:48:20.:48:23.

on mending our relationship I think people have been quite

:48:24.:48:31.

personally insulting to each other, But we weren't about to let those

:48:32.:48:36.

tensions spoil our tea party, not while everyone was having such

:48:37.:48:43.

a good time. The anger has died down from,

:48:44.:48:49.

obviously, the remainers and the leavers as well, you know,

:48:50.:48:56.

almost like a football match But we have to rub our shoulders

:48:57.:48:59.

and we have to be, you know, If every single part of society,

:49:00.:49:03.

every different component part, doesn't put in an effort now to pull

:49:04.:49:12.

together, the great opportunity that Brexit is going to give,

:49:13.:49:15.

over the medium term, will be wasted because so much

:49:16.:49:18.

talent, so much effort, so much Dischuffment is something worthy

:49:19.:49:21.

of that place there, the theatre. How far have we helped

:49:22.:49:30.

today, not much? It's nice to get people together

:49:31.:49:36.

and it's really interesting to see that people voted either way

:49:37.:49:41.

for passionate reasons. Clearing the decks for one last

:49:42.:49:46.

attraction on our Brexit bandstand. It's the men and women

:49:47.:49:59.

of the Shakespeare Morris performing a rarely seen dance

:50:00.:50:01.

of fertility and reconciliation. They eschewed their wooden

:50:02.:50:04.

staves in favour of Steve Smith, the Old

:50:05.:50:06.

Bard, in Stratford. Trouble is, we cant work out

:50:07.:50:32.

whether we can have our cake, We'll see what our panel choose

:50:33.:50:36.

at the end of the show. Weve talked strategy and security,

:50:37.:50:41.

trade and timings but fundamentally this is about something bigger

:50:42.:50:43.

than all that. Its about the kind of

:50:44.:50:45.

country we now become - Joining me now is the historian

:50:46.:50:47.

and writer Max Hastings, former political editor

:50:48.:50:52.

of the Sun Trevor Kavanagh, journalist and film maker Billy JD

:50:53.:50:54.

Porter and the Labour MP Kate Hoey. Warm welcome to all of us. Kate, if

:50:55.:51:00.

I start with you, does it seem to you does it feel like a leap forward

:51:01.:51:03.

or a yearning for the past. What is behind this move? Oh, no, it's very

:51:04.:51:06.

much looking forward and very confident. I feel this is going to

:51:07.:51:08.

really wake the United Kingdom up to being able to look at new ideas, to

:51:09.:51:12.

do things differently. To get that barrier of the straitjacket of the

:51:13.:51:17.

EU, which always hung over us. One of the things that really happened

:51:18.:51:21.

is that people with new ideas can and, you know, interesting things

:51:22.:51:25.

will be able to express that much more. The civil service, which I

:51:26.:51:30.

think has been, kind of, straitjacketed and dmras complacent

:51:31.:51:34.

over the fact that the EU has been there all the time. I think that

:51:35.:51:37.

will wake up. British politics will actually change because we will now

:51:38.:51:40.

know that when we vote for a party and they say they will do something,

:51:41.:51:43.

we can't blame anybody else if they don't do that. Kate speaks with the

:51:44.:51:48.

voice of freedom, a breath of fresh air there? I couldn't disagree more

:51:49.:51:53.

strongly. I have never seen anything so grotesque as a celebration over

:51:54.:51:57.

an expensive divorce. One of the tran disof what is going on, those

:51:58.:52:02.

who wanted Brexit, talk as if Brexit was a policy that was going to do

:52:03.:52:06.

things for Britain. If you look at the major problems facing Britain,

:52:07.:52:11.

huge trade deficit, education system, funding the NHS, funding the

:52:12.:52:14.

welfare system, how to make Britain pay its way in the 2st century,

:52:15.:52:19.

getting out of Europe will do absolutely nothing to advance these

:52:20.:52:22.

things. It may well push them backwards. To me, one of the things

:52:23.:52:27.

I fear, some of us found this a divisive issue at the time of the

:52:28.:52:31.

referendum. I think things are getting worse because those who are

:52:32.:52:36.

triumphalist today about leaving, for some of us it's a backward

:52:37.:52:41.

vision of Britain. They want a Miss Marm Britain, I'm old enough to

:52:42.:52:44.

remember what it was like. Britain today is a much more successful

:52:45.:52:48.

country than it was in the 1950s. The UK, I think, have voted to go

:52:49.:52:56.

back to the 1950s. That is the negativity coming over from a lot of

:52:57.:53:05.

people - A lot of business MEPmen - No, they want to get on with it and

:53:06.:53:10.

see outside the EU. 187 countries are not in the EU. They manage very

:53:11.:53:15.

well. I feel positive and confident. What we want to see now is everybody

:53:16.:53:19.

being able to work to give their own ideas of how this can move us

:53:20.:53:24.

forward and it is very sad that so many people still want to be

:53:25.:53:27.

negative. What will they do to advance the issues I mentioned?

:53:28.:53:32.

Billy, one of the things, you talked about a Miss Marm Britain. If we are

:53:33.:53:36.

recognising there was a generational gap, wasn't there, in the voting,

:53:37.:53:40.

how do you see this? Whether you think you have been saddled with

:53:41.:53:43.

something? Yeah. This wasn't the outcome that people my age wanted.

:53:44.:53:49.

We categorically did not want this result. Jool I think that it's just

:53:50.:53:54.

going to cement this further distrust between young people and

:53:55.:53:59.

people in power here. I think that people my age have a complete lack

:54:00.:54:02.

of faith in politics. Why wouldn't we? We have a Prime Minister that

:54:03.:54:06.

the public didn't vote for. Who is leading a party who have just come

:54:07.:54:13.

out of a huge scandal that, basically, delegitimatises the whole

:54:14.:54:15.

campaign that brought them into power. This must strike a chord for

:54:16.:54:20.

someone so close to political journalism and the establishment?

:54:21.:54:23.

The problem about this sort of view of the way that we now face the

:54:24.:54:29.

future is two dismal by half, as it was indeed during the referendum

:54:30.:54:32.

campaign when we were warned that the world would, basically, end on

:54:33.:54:37.

the 23rd June if we voted out. Nothing of that short happened

:54:38.:54:40.

whatsoever. It's the start of the process. Every single forecast of

:54:41.:54:48.

gloom and doom proved to be wrong and the reverse of the case. We have

:54:49.:54:52.

done extremely well. That is likely to be the case in the coming months

:54:53.:54:56.

and years. It won't be easy. I think the European Union, especially

:54:57.:54:59.

France, is going to make life extremely difficult for us at times.

:55:00.:55:03.

I think in three, four, five years' time we will look back and think

:55:04.:55:08.

with huge relief we have taken the decision. Brexiteers say this is

:55:09.:55:13.

about being more open, more worldly. More outward looking, yet you talk

:55:14.:55:16.

to foreigners in this country, since the Brexit vote who say they have

:55:17.:55:22.

felt increased xenophobia. How do you reconcile those two outlooks? I

:55:23.:55:27.

want very much the decision taken that the EU citizens here and

:55:28.:55:32.

British citizens in the EU will be able to remain and carry on as they

:55:33.:55:36.

have been doing. Not just in policy, in tone, culture and acceptance? All

:55:37.:55:42.

of those things could have happened if we found the EU countries not

:55:43.:55:46.

wanting to engage in that debate. The Prime Minister tried to get this

:55:47.:55:51.

some time ago, an agreement. I do think that once that is settled, I

:55:52.:55:56.

think that will make a huge difference to how people feel

:55:57.:56:00.

because there is a lot of fear being put around when, after all, it's

:56:01.:56:03.

going to be two years before we actually leave and somehow the way

:56:04.:56:08.

the media has put - maybe the fear game is still being played. We have

:56:09.:56:14.

to hope for the best.s when one says the worst does not happen. We had a

:56:15.:56:18.

13% devaluation. Was that good news the fact that the pound is worth -

:56:19.:56:24.

It's regarded as good news. Come on. To respond to what you are asking

:56:25.:56:28.

for. The nitty-gritty of the numbers no-one know what is the answers are.

:56:29.:56:31.

No-one seems to know what is going to happen. Physical you are talking

:56:32.:56:36.

about tone and the way British feel and the way other people feel about

:56:37.:56:40.

Britain, I'm embarrassed. I'm ashamed. When we are children, we

:56:41.:56:46.

are taught about the spirit of inclusion and the strength of team

:56:47.:56:50.

work. You think that's gone with the Brexit vote? It's gone with the most

:56:51.:56:56.

powerful political leaders over the world? I think you are expressing a

:56:57.:57:00.

personal point of view and maybe expressing the view of quite a lot

:57:01.:57:05.

of young people. I don't think it's a majority view. 75% of young

:57:06.:57:09.

people. You have to take into account - You have to take that into

:57:10.:57:14.

account we will be dead quickly than her generation will. They are

:57:15.:57:18.

saddled with something they didn't want? But the point is that there

:57:19.:57:21.

are other things to be considered as well. It's not just Britain wanting

:57:22.:57:25.

to leave the European Union. An awful lot of people across the

:57:26.:57:29.

European Union in countries that you would be surprised by are even more

:57:30.:57:32.

strongly anti-the European Union than we were before the vote. Even

:57:33.:57:37.

the Pope, the Pope of all people, in Rome of all places, was saying, only

:57:38.:57:42.

on the birthday, the 60th birthday of the European Union this weekend,

:57:43.:57:46.

that the European Union is dying. Now, this is not just scare tactics

:57:47.:57:51.

or fear campaigns, this is the mood that is in fact prevailing across

:57:52.:57:56.

the European Union. I agree. Where I don't agree, Michael Heseltine is an

:57:57.:58:01.

old friend of mine. Michael will not accept that the European project has

:58:02.:58:04.

gone horribly wrong. I would agree with you. It has gone horribly

:58:05.:58:09.

wrong. But on the other hand, to some of us the benefits, both - the

:58:10.:58:14.

cultural importance of being part of Europe and also the huge economic

:58:15.:58:18.

advantage - Let me ask you something personal. Would you prefer now the

:58:19.:58:24.

European project to wither away and die. That will give us a sense we've

:58:25.:58:38.

made the right choice? It will. Michael Howard, who is 94, the good

:58:39.:58:43.

Michael Howard, not the politician. He was saying the other week over

:58:44.:58:48.

the referendum he said the great lesson in my long lifetime has been

:58:49.:58:51.

most of the problems are best addressed together with partners and

:58:52.:58:54.

allies however difficult. That is how some of us feel. The idea of

:58:55.:59:01.

people celebrating only fools like Boris Johnson or David Davis will

:59:02.:59:06.

celebrate. I thought in the House of Commons it was a calm and sensible

:59:07.:59:10.

reaction to Theresa May's statement. Thank you very much. We have

:59:11.:59:12.

important work to do, as you know. It's time toll decide what to do

:59:13.:59:21.

with the cake. We weren't allowed the cake knife. We have this one. I

:59:22.:59:26.

have to ask my guests. You can lower the light. Will you have your cake

:59:27.:59:30.

and eat it? I will start with you, Billy? I will eat it because I'm

:59:31.:59:35.

hungry. We will go for the hear. Yeah, the heart of Europe and the

:59:36.:59:41.

heart of Britain. Oh. As we say our goodbyes we leave you with Europeans

:59:42.:59:44.

who wanted to bid farewell in return to us. Good night.

:59:45.:59:55.

Stay. Do go, but please come back home. Hi, Great Britain, it's too

:59:56.:00:05.

bad you are leaving. I'm really going to miss you I'm going to miss

:00:06.:00:09.

from England fish and chips and beer. But you're going to miss all

:00:10.:00:14.

this. It was love at first sight. I thought it was going to be forever.

:00:15.:00:18.

But you just said to me that you don't love me any more. I love your

:00:19.:00:25.

pop culture. If people don't care if they get wasted on a week day. God

:00:26.:00:29.

Save The Queen. You will soon be crawling back. This is very sad

:00:30.:00:33.

indeed. I do appreciate the cheaper pound. Auf Wiedersehen.

:00:34.:00:56.

Hello there, warmest day of the year on the way for Thursday. We start

:00:57.:01:00.

with cloud. We have outbreaks of rain too. That will get pushed

:01:01.:01:04.

northwards and towards the west with most of the wet weather sitting over

:01:05.:01:08.

the Irish Sea allowing brighter

:01:09.:01:09.

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