Article 50 Special Newsnight

Article 50 Special

Evan Davis in Brussels and Emily Maitlis in London start the two-year countdown to Brexit.

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And now the decision to leave has been made, and the process is


underway, it is time to come together. There is no reason to


pretend that this is a happy day. We are leaving.


Control over migration through our own borders and a reassertion of the


supremacy of our Parliament. That will happen.


The Prime Minister says no deal it is better than a bad deal, but the


reality is, no deal is a bad deal. We already miss you. Thank you and


goodbye. The clock to exit, has started


counting down as we are helpfully To think a year ago, hardly anyone


had heard of Article 50, now it is the framework


by which our future Welcome to Brussels -


We'll head to London later in the programme,


and to Berlin. But it is THIS city that has become


a by-word in the UK, for bureaucracy and barmy


directives, for remote rule Fair or unfair, those


associations are now irrelevant. Not for the first time,


we are redefining our relationship with the continent that sits 21


miles away from us. Theresa May put on a conciliatory


tone in the commons today. I have set out a clear and ambitious


plan for the negotiations ahead. It is a plan for a new deep


and special partnership between A partnership of values,


a partnership of interest, a partnership based on cooperation


in areas such as security and economic affairs


and a partnership that works in the best interests


of the United Kingdom, the European Union and the wider


world. Because, perhaps now,


more than ever, the world needs the liberal democratic


values of Europe. "Deep and special partnership"


are words she repeated. The British government's letter


triggering Article 50 was hand delivered to Donald Tusk -


a very nineteenth And that acknowledgement meant,


the clock to our exit Unless we agree on something


different, it's 730 days away. Not for the first time,


we will be separate. You can look back to the Roman


empire or the Reformation to see that we have long had an ambivalent


relationship with the continent. Perhaps this historic moment fits


that historic pattern. Membership actually came after years


of dithering. After the war we said no but then we said yes and then the


French said no, followed by yes and then we said yes but now we say no.


Maybe Brexit is just the latest manifestation of Britain's on-off


relationship with the continent, through the centuries we have


struggled to settle the matter of how to engage without committing to


Europe. We have a tendency to think of Europe as a unified entity on the


other side of the channel with which we


either engage or do not. It is a frame of mind that comes out of the


19th century, the idea of splendid isolation and the idea that we have


our own perpetual interest and perpetual enemies and allies. Other


nations found solace in the newly constructed European institutions,


having lived through a war and crises on their own. The British


public never really got behind of Brussels and its ways. Perhaps we


confused it with Eurovision, except when we joined the Common Market, it


was possible to think that we had settled the matter and we were now


taking Europe seriously. # Taking power to all our friends.


That very year Cliff Richard came third with power to all our friends,


a song for a new constructive era. Back then and that sporadic other


bomb moments, you could genuinely think that post-imperial Britain had


found a new home for itself here in Brussels, but we were never quite in


sync. We were never really all that comfortable. It took a decade for


Labour to reluctantly reconcile itself to membership of the Common


Market and by then, the Conservatives were turning


sceptical. And in our 44 years of EU membership we have had more than 44


arguments, over treaties and social chapters, budgets and bent bananas.


For any marriage to be durable, the partners have to grow, develop and


change together and the Common Market did change. The EEC became


the EU, the nine members became 28, the one thing that did not change


though, was that British ambivalence. If anything, it grew.


Our separation captured by this moment, Gordon Brown signing Bill


lives bomb treaty on his own, I'm keen to make a big deal of it. The


other member celebrated together, thinking of it as a new constitution


for Europe. So now, we forge a new relationship. This is an historic


moment, from which there can be no turning back. Britain is leaving the


European Union. Can we finally settle the matter once and for all?


Good luck with that. At one level you might say that the EU is less


binary than it used to be, less about in or out, it can be by


curious, dabble in the bits we like, reject the bits we do not like and


even the remaining members recognise it is to big for one size fits all,


flexibility has to be part of their future. We are all grown-ups, that


is the modern way. But, when it comes to us and flexibility, we have


only allowed ourselves two years to negotiate something we have been


grappling with four two sentries and are we all grown-ups? Human emotion


is at play, nowhere more so than in the European Parliament itself. It


is going to be complicated. While we have been ambivalent about the EU,


over the 44 years, the public have merrily reached out to Europe for


business and pleasure. Those auto industry supply chains, testify to


deeper links with Europe than to the EU. But the EU might get in the way


of those relationships with Europe. In so many areas, from regulation of


trade in nuclear materials to rules governing aviation, there is room


for the others to cause trouble, without even thinking about trading


goods and services. Who knows how it will go. It is now those


institutions about which we have been so very ambivalent that will be


shaping our future. There are several


presidents of the EU - Donald Tusk for the Council,


Jean-Claude Juncker And I sat down with the President


of the European Parliament, The Parliament does have the power


to veto a deal and has suggested Mr Tajani had hot-footed


it to me straight from Yes, we had a very good


conversation, very constructive. Both we want an agreement,


win win and then after the Brexit, our opinion is, we need


to have a good cooperation. Tomorrow, the United Kingdom will be


outside the European Union, but it will still be Europe,


it is important, to work together, You mentioned terrorism,


many people say, her letter to you is a threat, it is blackmail,


it says we want a deal on the economy and on security


and links the two. If Britain links security


and economy, how will you react? We need to work


for global agreement. General agreement is


the most important point. But, the cooperation against


the terrorists is a priority. Also, without an agreement in other


sectors, we need to cooperate The first issue is money,


the bill for the UK to pay. I think millions


and millions of euro. And my understanding is we talk


about the money and we can also talk about broad principles on our future


partnership, correct, Before, we need to achieve


an agreement on the Brexit and then, it is possible to decide our future,


our good relations, but before we need to decide the divorce,


because without the divorce, it is impossible to decide


the day after the divorce! We need to know what the UK


will give us afterwards. It could be a financial


problem for us! Also, financial, but I think


it is important to have a good framework before and then,


it is possible to achieve a good agreement for the future,


but it is important that we have a good


framework for the Brexit. Do you think Britain maybe one day


will want to come back But, but, we need an agreement


with the 27 member states. If the UK wants to change


its position, I think What is your message today to 48%


of the UK population They are losing their


European citizenship, You can sell passports to them,


European passports? They are citizens of


the United Kingdom, They are European, but they are not


citizens of the European Union now. I think we need to respect the vote,


the referendum, the democracy, but I think we look at these people,


because I think in the UK, there are a lot of pro-European


citizens against the Brexit. We need to have good relationships


with them in the future. Early 2019, the deal goes


to the European Parliament, you have to vote for it


or against it, the deal is better than no deal, but not as good


as the deal you want. It does not have your red lines,


it does not have all Do you vote for it or do


you vote against it? I think my personal position,


we need to achieve a good agreement. With, the most important point


of the European Parliament. The agreement, win-win,


is not the agreement. We need to be very pragmatic,


but at the same time, we need to strengthen the rights


of citizens, not only Europeans, but also the UK citizens,


and I think it is possible to achieve this goal, finally,


but we need to read the content For all his optimism,


I'd say sadness not anger But we'll be back a little


later to test that. We'll be back in Brussels later,


but now to the day here. Theresa May was on her feet


for three hours this afternoon, and struck a tone that looked rather


different to some of the bravado There was an acknowledgment


that there would be 'consequences' for Britain's departure -


perhaps even a tacit And she went further: suggesting


in no uncertain terms that failure to reach an agreement would mean


Britain's cooperation in the fight How did Security become


contingent on trade? Is it the start of dirty talk -


either to Europe, Nick Watt our political editor


is here - how did you read today? Rule number one of reporting the


modern Conservative Party is to be careful of saying it is united on


Europe. Eurosceptics were delirious today and pro-Europeans were


delighted that the Prime Minister reached out to the EU by saying that


the world needs the Liberal democratic values of Europe and that


really set the tone for that two-year road to Brexit. One Cabinet


minister told me today that we might not actually read the political


negotiations until next January. We have the German elections in


September and last time it took two months to form a government. That


means that we might just have ten months of intense political


negotiations before we reach the informal deadline of October, 2018


so we can have six months of ratification. Before we get to all


of that there is the small matter of triggering article 15. Here is my


film on the Prime Minister's day. David Cameron warned if would amount


to the gamble of the century. Today, Theresa May was hailed as the person


of this century as she showed her hand, nine months after the UK voted


to leave the EU. Downing Street has spent months sweating about how to


play their hand over the triggering of Article 50. In the end, Britain's


ambassador to the EU handed over a relatively short letter which


combined words of comfort and words of warning. The Prime Minister's two


audiences - eurosceptics in Britain and the remaining 27 members of the


EU. To eurosceptics, the Prime Minister hailed a historic moment


that will be irreversible, but in a mild toning down of her rhetoric


about a sunny Brexit future, she warned of what she called


"consequences." Britain won't be present when rules for the European


single market are drawn up. To the rest of the EU, the Prime Minister


spoke of her desire to forge a deep and special partnership. But there


was also an unmistakable warning that failure to agree a UK-EU deal


would weaken co-operation in the fight against terrorism. The tone


today was, I thought, a little reminder to the European Union that,


actually, there is a lot in this for them as much as there is for us if


we strike a reasonable agreement. The reality is that the UK actually


is needed in a whole lot of areas of the European Union, not just trade,


not just co-operation. In that sense, the co-operation on security,


intelligence and policing. This message appeared not to be


appreciated in the EU where it was seen as something of a threat.


Theresa May's Labour redcressor as Home Secretary thought she had


another audience in mind. I think the whole of that letter was a


warning to her Eurosceptics and a bit on the security was


predominantly about that. There were orbits of the letter, warning


business that is they won't - they it will have more pew rocky to deal


with to trade into the biggest commercial market on our doorstep.


There was a hint of realism. Tony Blair in that phrase said it was the


swivel eyed ones driving the bus. Maybe Theresa May has wrenched the


wheel off of them. One pro-European Tory believes the Prime Minister was


thinking of those who have no fear of leaving the EU without a deal. I


think it demonstrates the very real adverse consequences of crashing out


without a deal. It's showing it's not just about trade and WTO, but


it's about losing security co-operation. That is a message for


Europe and for those here in the UK who are saying that somehow no deal


is a good option. That is one of the things I put to the Prime Minister


today. She made it very clear she said - I'm really keen to get a good


deal. This was unquestionably a day of high stakes, but our ever


cautious Prime Minister went out of her way with messages carefully


crafted for her various audiences to Sehwag's no reckless gambler. Nick


Watt there. As you heard, Theresa May


mentioned security 11 times The EU's chief Brexit negotiator,


Guy Verhofstadt, accused the Prime Minister of a threat


to weaken security commitments to the EU if Britain


was denied a trade deal. So when I spoke earlier


to Damien Green, the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions,


and one of Theresa May's most trusted colleagues in Cabinet,


I started off by asking him It's not a threat, I think that's


the misunderstanding. There was no threat


in the Prime Minister's letter. All right, she says "in security


terms a failure to reach agreement would mean our co-operation


in the fight against crime Just explain to us then


what would be weakened in the event of no trade deal,


what would happen? Well, we have institutions


inside the European Union of which we are part,


which allow us to have daily, Things like the European Arrest


Warrant and various things We can't divorce that


from a trade deal? Obviously, we want a trade deal


and obviously we want a security deal as well as part of the overall


negotiations because we want there to be -


So why can't we have a security deal It has been all bound


up in our membership of the European Union,


so what we want is a deal It's a way of saying,


if you don't give us what we want, then we won't help


you with security? I mean, the phrase you read out,


the sentence you read out from the Prime Minister,


is a statement that it's "We must work hard to


avoid that outcome." Would we will be less willing then


to share intelligence? Would we be less willing


to extradite suspects or, as you say, deploy troops to protect


Europe? We're still able to


do all those things. We can do the last one


because that's part of Nato, Well, sharing intelligence,


that requires legal protocols. You can't just share intelligence


without a legal basis for doing it. Those don't just disappear just


because a trade deal isn't there? they disappear at the moment


if you're not a member That's why we want to recast


them because, I agree, of course these things


are very important. They are important to our safety


and important to the safety How does it even serve our own


country's interest to suggest that that might be under threat or off


the table now. The fact that we're leaving


the European Union means that certain legal - things


that we can now do legally, including intelligence co-operation,


needs to have a new legal basis She said, ?in security terms,


failure to reach an agreement would mean our co-operation


in the fight against crime Because the things we can do legally


as a member of the European Union, we couldn't do if we weren't


a member of the European Union and we didn't reach


a security agreement. It's - You're comfortable


with that position? It's a very sensible point to make


that there are huge numbers of areas where we want


very close co-operation. It's a deal in other


areas, like security. In this post-deal world


that we have to imagine, what will the divorce


settlement look like? Well, we haven't had anything formal


back from the European Union yet. As you say, there are lots


of numbers swirling around, but actually, until the negotiations


start, I think Donald Tusk made clear today,


that they will have their negotiating mandate ready


by the end of April. So, at that point, it might be


sensible to start talking money. Theresa May said the days of vast


contributions will end. So it won't look like


?200 million a week? Well, the days of large


contributions will end but, however hard you try, you're not


going to get me on what numbers we're aiming at because that


would not be in the interests Yeah, but the British


people are feeling really As you say, we had


numbers on the bus. We've had numbers contradicted


before Brexit, after Brexit. We know that we pay around


?200 million a week. Tell us that we won't pay more


than that at the end of this deal? Well, I mean, Philip Hammond has


made clear that the sort of outer end of the figures


aren't remotely realistic. So we won't pay more


than ?200 million a week We will, obviously,


we will pay for projects But, you know, what those


projects are and, therefore, what the numbers are,


it's way too early to say. But if part of the attraction


of this was getting hold of our finances again,


choosing what we buy and what we don't and what we send


and what we don't, we are not You must be able to rule


that out, can't you? We won't end up paying


the same amount after... We will only be paying


for things that are in You are quite right to say,


we will be able to take our own decisions as to how we spend


the money and there some European projects that we may


wish to play a part in that What the numbers are,


that's for the negotiations. Jonathan Hill was our man


in Brussels until the Brexit vote. He resigned almost immediately


afterwards from his post as EU He understands the mechanics


of this day and the days Nice of you to come in Lord Hill. Do


you think this will have momentum now. We are only four hours into


this, it feels like a lifetime already? It's clearly, we are right


at the beginning. I think the first thing we all need to do is take a


deep breath and actually I think the intelligent way to think about the


negotiation, in a way, it's slightly the other way round. Start with -


where do we want to end up? One of the things about the European


system, that I think people don't always appreciate over here, where


we tend to think of it as being a bureaucratic inflexible system. It


has some of those characteristics as well, it can, at the same time, be a


highly flexible and political system. If it wants to do a deal,


then a lot of these really complicated, technical issues can be


sorted. Can be magically resolved. It's about hearts right now, not


mechanics? I think a lot of it is about the heart and where he we want


to get to, in terms of a new relationship, a new partnership at


the end of it. We've done an awful lot in recent months talking about


all the things that divide us. We haven't done very.


About the things we have in common. Actually, the thing that strikes me


about it is our shared history, our shared values and the fact that


we're going to have a shared future. I thought Mrs May picked up some of


that in her letter. She did. She told the BBC this evening that a


comprehensive free trade agreement is possible. There would be a


different relationship but with the same benefits. She outlined


something similar to what we have now. You could have kept the


portfolio, couldn't you? Things will have to cleaning a bit. When you


have any policy change, whatever size it is, you know that there are


always winners and losers. So we're about to set out on some of the


biggest set of policy changes that we've been through in the last 40,


50 years. Clearly, there are going to be parts of the economy that will


be affected by the change. There will be some where there will be new


opportunities. I think the way to think about it is to move on a bit


from the slightlister rile polarised political debate we have and think


about how can you minimise the downsize. How can you maximise the


opportunity. How can you get on with it as fast as you possibly can? Do


you think that tone was right. On the one hand we were saying it's


conciliatory. She put out something akin to blackmail, didn't she, with


the security threat. Damian Green disagrees with me. It sounded like -


we will withdraw what we want, what we have on the table if we don't get


stuff? I didn't read it as a blackmail threat. I read it as being


a sensible way of trying to identify the things that we've got in common.


Because I think, if you think about this from a European point of view,


someone like me, who wishes the European Union well and wants the


European continent to flourish, they need as much as we do to get through


this process speedily. I think it's important for them that the message


they communicate to the outside world is, actually, the EU can deal


with something like this, take it in its stride and move on. They've got


big issues of their own that they need to address. I think, for them,


to approach it in a constructive way as we can makes sense economically


and to try and secure and keep some of the things that we want to have


in common. Then to get on with the things that they want to do to


secure the future of the European Union. Lord Hill. Thank you. Thank


you. Now back to Brussels and Evan. It was perhaps a myth to think


that Brussels has been the centre of power in Europe,


it's more the meeting point, No, the real power lies


with the governments of the EU, and politics will probably shape


the European offer to the UK. No capital is more


important than Berlin, and our diplomatic editor,


Mark Urban, is there for us. Mark, this has been


no surprise today. What's Angela Merkel


been saying about it? Well, it's very interesting to see


the degree of message control, if you like, that goes from here to the


key institutions. The German line is very similar to the one that the


President of the European Parliament gave to you earlier - let's get the


circumstances of the so-called divorce straight before we move on


to talking about the bigger relationship, any trade details,


that kind of thing. Now, key to this divorce issue is the British


contribution in paying out the remainder of the budget period. If


the Brits carry on refusing to pay, I think we can be confident the


Germans will simply wait them out for as many months as that seems to


be happening. They really want to avoid a knife fight between EU


countries over who makes up the shortfall. Then there is the issue


of foreign nationals. Some European countries are tougher on these


issues. Some are less so. Of course, as Europe's economic powerhouse with


by far the largest contribution to its budget, Germany's attitude will


be pivotal. The day started with news


that the Brexit phoney war, those months between the referendum


and today, was over. Many German politicians had hoped


that Britain would change its mind The number of people in Britain that


think that the decision was right to leave the European Union will go


down and down and, at the end of the day, the British Government


has to decide whether they should follow the way or that they should


probably follow the change in mood I think, in every stage


of the negotiations, the German government and German


politics will say, OK, we accept to stop and to


throwaway that letter. Article 50 is reversible


then, in your view? Like many countries though, Germany


has plenty of other priorities, that the offices of Bildt,


the biggest selling paper, the editor explained why today's


news hadn't even made People in Germany worry a lot more


about Donald Trump right now They actually haven't been worried


about Brexit last year before the referendum because no-one


thought it was possible I think there was a mix of regret,


but also lack of interest. Thinking, oh, it's the British again


wanting their own way. Many Germans maybe slow


to pick up on what this process will now involve,


but for some there are At this English bookshop,


Another Country, we met British expats whose fate,


along with that of EU citizens in Britain,


ranks among the most I've been in Germany quite


a long time and I feel like Britain has, kind of,


abandoned me personally almost. It's a very personal


reaction, I think. People in the UK, I'm sure, can look


at Trump and go - oh, he's a joke. The whole says he's


a joke, it's clear. But when they look at Brexit


they don't understand that the whole world,


including Germany, anywhere that's broadly


similar it's like - Why Germany's leader said today that


issues relating to separation, such as expats and the UK's share


of the EU budget, will have to come first before any talks


on the wider relationship. Many here don't rate Britain's


chances of exploiting splits German priorities will be -


how can we find a unified position and protecting the integrity


of the European Union. That is Germany's


number one priority. Divide and rule strategy will


probably backfire. Talking to politicians here since the


referendum, I have heard regret, surprise and even scorn, but very


little understanding of why so many Britons voted to leave. For many


Germans, the EU's interests and their own national interests are


indistinguishable and may well lead this country to take some tough


negotiating positions. I expect that Europe should concentrate on more


forward-looking things and sorry to say, foolish decision to leave the


European Union. Now negotiations begin in earnest, but with many of


the key leaders here is still utterly puzzled by Britain's


decision, reaching common understandings by not be easy.


Let's continue the discussion with two members of


Ska Keller is a Green MEP from Germany and Robert Ziller


is a Latvian MEP, on the right, in the European Conservatives


Thank you for joining us. First of all, very briefly on security, did


you think that the British were trying to blackmail Europeans were


some words on security? If you read the Prime Minister's letter,


sentence by sentence, but the issue is serious, the security for my


region and Poland, security is very important. What did you think? With


a British trying to say something by putting the sentences next to each


other? It certainly did raise the attention of everyone reading it. It


was clear that the Prime Minister was trying to find something where


she could say, I'm putting my eggs in the basket, I am not sure that


this will solve many issues, because security is important, but most


sites stand to lose. Both sides stand to lose if we do not reach an


economic deal, isn't that really the point? We all stand to lose on


anything and that is maybe what she was driving home. We all stand to


lose and that is why it is a sad day today. It is very sad and indeed,


for as it is important that in the future we have close corporation


with the people in Great Britain, many of whom have actually voted to


remain in the European Union but it is also clear that when you leave a


union like this, you cannot keep all the privileges that come with


membership. I really see some concerns, we saw a draft resolution,


, but there are paragraphs about Article 50 and a real sense that you


have to agree on the divorce that was drawn and at the same time, you


have to agree on the framework for future relations and if you read the


resolution, you can see that there can only be finalisation of the


divorce and only when the UK became a separate country, only then we


will make an agreement about how we will trade and do the economy. I


think it is the wrong approach and it should be fixed. Do you think the


Parliament is getting it wrong? Not only Parliament. I think some member


states reported the same issue. I would support the majority decision


of the Parliament, because it would be very schizophrenic as the


European Union doing a deal with one of our still members. At least the


principles, we have to be clear about how we settle the separation


before we can talk about the future. What about the money? To see how


much we are willing to give, before we know how willing and flexible you


will be on the issues that matter to us, it


is not reasonable, is it? On the money issue, it is clear that we


have taken collective decisions where the UK was part of. The UK


cannot run away from it, if you have a divorce, you cannot say forget


about the kids, I will not pay for it. You have to contribute if you


want to leave the European Union. On the money issue, you have two sides,


liabilities and assets. Everyone speaks about liabilities. You have


to buy our share out. I hide -- I think we have to be fair on money.


If you think about money and nothing else, I think it is wrong. Come the


vote you have in the European Parliament, you have to take it or


leave it, you will ultimately take it if it is better than no deal at


all, isn't that right? All the posturing is irrelevant. If you are


faced with a deal that is bad but better than nothing, you have to


take it. The Parliament, with its resolution that we are going to vote


on next week, if it is adopted, it will make clear, there are some


strong points. When it comes to the rights of citizens of the EU in the


UK, this will be watched very carefully and also the financial


issue and many other issues and the Parliament has proven, it's a had no


too bad deals. We need to leave it there. One strategy, if someone


really wants to punish the UK because of Brexit, because other


member states don't follow in the future, it is a risky strategy. We


can say what kind of union will exist in the future. I think we have


to... No punishment, but very fair. We need to leave it there.


I started by asking whether any new deal will settle


It's not the question the rest of Europe are asking -


The direction is set but, in the UK, the arguments continue, which takes


It's no secret that Europe has brought more Conservative leaders


closer to destruction than virtually any other policy.


David Cameron knew of the dangers of banging on about Europe.


He went in with eyes wide open, but he was still felled by Europe.


Today marks perhaps the high watermark for Conservative


Eurosceptics that they themselves never believed would happen.


In a moment, we'll speak to one of those, MP Jacob Rees Mogg,


but first to one of the last of the Europhile big beasts -


Nice to see you. How does today feel to you? It is the day in which


Britain lost more power and influence than any other day of my


peacetime life. We have got influence still, haven't we? We will


see. You don't believe that we wield any cards in this deal at all? I


don't think so. You might have heard Lauderhill, he said there would be a


lot of heartache at the beginning, a lot of people, the slanging match


that comes at the beginning of a break-up, people will think


rationally, we have to succeed and Europe has to succeed. We might get


a deal, but it will be significantly worse than our present position. How


do you feel regarding your own party now? You have seen the slings and


arrows of Europe and what it has thrown up for the Conservatives, is


that debate now over? Know. Every Conservative Prime Minister that I


have worked for since the war, including the present one, has


argued logically that our national self interest is inextricably


interwoven with Europe. Theresa May's speech in April last year was


highly impressive. She has changed her mind. I haven't. You are still


going to fight on? I am going to do my best to ensure that Parliament,


the sovereign guardian of our country has the chance to make the


key decisions and I am going to do my best to articulate the


frustrations of the 48% who voted against leaving, who feel better


that they are being ignored and that their voices not been heard. I will


do my best to give them some sort of voice. Some will look and say this


is an extraordinary thing, you have got the most popular Conservative


Prime Minister for a lifetime, the Brexiteers won fair and square, you


must accept that you are out of touch with your party and with the


direction the country is going on now. In public life, you can decide


value are there. I have views. They happen to be the views of my party


all my political life and I have not seen any evidence at all that I


should change them. And so, I have only ever voted against my party


twice on substantive issues, on the race relations Bill, three weeks


later, the party changed its mind, on the poll tax and that enabled


John Major to win a decisive victory. We will see whether I am


right or wrong. The party can still change is mine? Certainly. The


essence of where we are today, is not the phraseology of the letter,


or what matters, is what the Europeans tell us they are prepared


to do as a deal. Effectively, if I may put it graphically, at the


moment, we sit on the Council of ministers, we influence, British


self interest, the largest trading partner that we. Tomorrow, they will


make the decisions about the trading conditions, the law, the


specifications and we won't even have an empty chair in the Council


of ministers arguing for British self interest. Thank you very much.


You heard Lord Heseltine there speaking directly, saying that we


have given up more power than he has seen in his lifetime today. I


fundamentally disagree. We have taken power back to the United


Kingdom. You have to remember that the rules of the European Union


affect 100% our economy and only 13% of our economy trades with Europe.


We have been receiving rules passed by qualified majority vote that the


British electorate could not stop, democratically, the only way they


could stop them was by leaving the European Union. 87% of the economy


is not dependent on the EU, so we have reclaimed power. No one really


knows what is coming next, Damian Green could not even guarantee we


would be paying less for the EU after we left! It is a ridiculous


setup! It is obvious we will be playing less. All future events are


unknown. That is the nature of mankind, you don't know what the


weather will be like tomorrow. You do not move into a house that you


have never seen before without having some sense of what you are


buying. We know exactly what we will be doing in that sense because this


is what we did prior to joining the European Union, we are going to


control our own destiny, we are a member of the Security Council and


of Nato and in terms of our international influence we are


stronger because we are doing it for ourselves. Take the World Trade


Organisation, we all have or own feed on the WTO,. That is a better


position. I want to talk about the party, because we have both a view


from the Conservative Party here and yet you could not be further apart.


Does it feel to you like the disagreements are there, do you feel


you can walk on and leave the likes of Lord Heseltine behind? He is an


enormously distinguished member of the party who has been a loyal


supporter and servant for decades. There is no question of leaving him


behind. I went to speak to Dominic Grieve and other than on the EU, I


agreed with almost everything he says. This is indeed a full-time


party and has been for a long time, but there are many issues were many


Conservatives agree on a whole range of issues and actually, I think once


we have left, it will be a real opportunity for the party to


reunite. People are entitled, of course, to argue for positions they


have held for many years. It's said that the British


were surprised to find their famous tolerance and phlegm severely tested


by the Brexit vote. Work colleagues, even husbands


and wives, woke up last June Here at Newsnight, we felt


that our cherished public service remit was meaningless unless we did


a little to pour oil So that's exactly


what we did - a little. We sent Stephen Smith


to Stratford-upon-Avon, where the breakdown of the vote


mirrored the national trend, to see if he could organise


a reconciliation tea party So Newsnight said to me -


we want you to close our special three hour Brexit programme,


why don't you go to Stratford-upon-Avon,


where the voters were very divided and see if leavers and remainers


can be friends again. This I'll be perfect,


let's do the show right here. Put on a little function, they said,


on the very British basis that there's nothing that can't be solved


by lashings of tea and cake and Morris dancing,


of which more later. Spring draws on in Stratford,


high time we heard from the Swan of Avon himself, on the vexed


question of divided houses. Two households, both


alike in dignity. In fair Stratford,


where we lay our scene, from ancient grudge break


to new mutiny. There never was a story


of more woe than this - of those who'd stay


and those who'd go. You two are best


buddies, aren't you? And, has it affected


your friendship? We've had some quite


heated conversations. Both of my children and their other


halves really gave me a severe telling off


because I was a Brexiteer. My son is a consultant anaesthetist


in the NHS and as soon as we voted for Brexit he said -


where's my ?250,000 a week? Do we need to do a big job


on mending our relationship I think people have been quite


personally insulting to each other, But we weren't about to let those


tensions spoil our tea party, not while everyone was having such


a good time. The anger has died down from,


obviously, the remainers and the leavers as well, you know,


almost like a football match But we have to rub our shoulders


and we have to be, you know, If every single part of society,


every different component part, doesn't put in an effort now to pull


together, the great opportunity that Brexit is going to give,


over the medium term, will be wasted because so much


talent, so much effort, so much Dischuffment is something worthy


of that place there, the theatre. How far have we helped


today, not much? It's nice to get people together


and it's really interesting to see that people voted either way


for passionate reasons. Clearing the decks for one last


attraction on our Brexit bandstand. It's the men and women


of the Shakespeare Morris performing a rarely seen dance


of fertility and reconciliation. They eschewed their wooden


staves in favour of Steve Smith, the Old


Bard, in Stratford. Trouble is, we cant work out


whether we can have our cake, We'll see what our panel choose


at the end of the show. Weve talked strategy and security,


trade and timings but fundamentally this is about something bigger


than all that. Its about the kind of


country we now become - Joining me now is the historian


and writer Max Hastings, former political editor


of the Sun Trevor Kavanagh, journalist and film maker Billy JD


Porter and the Labour MP Kate Hoey. Warm welcome to all of us. Kate, if


I start with you, does it seem to you does it feel like a leap forward


or a yearning for the past. What is behind this move? Oh, no, it's very


much looking forward and very confident. I feel this is going to


really wake the United Kingdom up to being able to look at new ideas, to


do things differently. To get that barrier of the straitjacket of the


EU, which always hung over us. One of the things that really happened


is that people with new ideas can and, you know, interesting things


will be able to express that much more. The civil service, which I


think has been, kind of, straitjacketed and dmras complacent


over the fact that the EU has been there all the time. I think that


will wake up. British politics will actually change because we will now


know that when we vote for a party and they say they will do something,


we can't blame anybody else if they don't do that. Kate speaks with the


voice of freedom, a breath of fresh air there? I couldn't disagree more


strongly. I have never seen anything so grotesque as a celebration over


an expensive divorce. One of the tran disof what is going on, those


who wanted Brexit, talk as if Brexit was a policy that was going to do


things for Britain. If you look at the major problems facing Britain,


huge trade deficit, education system, funding the NHS, funding the


welfare system, how to make Britain pay its way in the 2st century,


getting out of Europe will do absolutely nothing to advance these


things. It may well push them backwards. To me, one of the things


I fear, some of us found this a divisive issue at the time of the


referendum. I think things are getting worse because those who are


triumphalist today about leaving, for some of us it's a backward


vision of Britain. They want a Miss Marm Britain, I'm old enough to


remember what it was like. Britain today is a much more successful


country than it was in the 1950s. The UK, I think, have voted to go


back to the 1950s. That is the negativity coming over from a lot of


people - A lot of business MEPmen - No, they want to get on with it and


see outside the EU. 187 countries are not in the EU. They manage very


well. I feel positive and confident. What we want to see now is everybody


being able to work to give their own ideas of how this can move us


forward and it is very sad that so many people still want to be


negative. What will they do to advance the issues I mentioned?


Billy, one of the things, you talked about a Miss Marm Britain. If we are


recognising there was a generational gap, wasn't there, in the voting,


how do you see this? Whether you think you have been saddled with


something? Yeah. This wasn't the outcome that people my age wanted.


We categorically did not want this result. Jool I think that it's just


going to cement this further distrust between young people and


people in power here. I think that people my age have a complete lack


of faith in politics. Why wouldn't we? We have a Prime Minister that


the public didn't vote for. Who is leading a party who have just come


out of a huge scandal that, basically, delegitimatises the whole


campaign that brought them into power. This must strike a chord for


someone so close to political journalism and the establishment?


The problem about this sort of view of the way that we now face the


future is two dismal by half, as it was indeed during the referendum


campaign when we were warned that the world would, basically, end on


the 23rd June if we voted out. Nothing of that short happened


whatsoever. It's the start of the process. Every single forecast of


gloom and doom proved to be wrong and the reverse of the case. We have


done extremely well. That is likely to be the case in the coming months


and years. It won't be easy. I think the European Union, especially


France, is going to make life extremely difficult for us at times.


I think in three, four, five years' time we will look back and think


with huge relief we have taken the decision. Brexiteers say this is


about being more open, more worldly. More outward looking, yet you talk


to foreigners in this country, since the Brexit vote who say they have


felt increased xenophobia. How do you reconcile those two outlooks? I


want very much the decision taken that the EU citizens here and


British citizens in the EU will be able to remain and carry on as they


have been doing. Not just in policy, in tone, culture and acceptance? All


of those things could have happened if we found the EU countries not


wanting to engage in that debate. The Prime Minister tried to get this


some time ago, an agreement. I do think that once that is settled, I


think that will make a huge difference to how people feel


because there is a lot of fear being put around when, after all, it's


going to be two years before we actually leave and somehow the way


the media has put - maybe the fear game is still being played. We have


to hope for the best.s when one says the worst does not happen. We had a


13% devaluation. Was that good news the fact that the pound is worth -


It's regarded as good news. Come on. To respond to what you are asking


for. The nitty-gritty of the numbers no-one know what is the answers are.


No-one seems to know what is going to happen. Physical you are talking


about tone and the way British feel and the way other people feel about


Britain, I'm embarrassed. I'm ashamed. When we are children, we


are taught about the spirit of inclusion and the strength of team


work. You think that's gone with the Brexit vote? It's gone with the most


powerful political leaders over the world? I think you are expressing a


personal point of view and maybe expressing the view of quite a lot


of young people. I don't think it's a majority view. 75% of young


people. You have to take into account - You have to take that into


account we will be dead quickly than her generation will. They are


saddled with something they didn't want? But the point is that there


are other things to be considered as well. It's not just Britain wanting


to leave the European Union. An awful lot of people across the


European Union in countries that you would be surprised by are even more


strongly anti-the European Union than we were before the vote. Even


the Pope, the Pope of all people, in Rome of all places, was saying, only


on the birthday, the 60th birthday of the European Union this weekend,


that the European Union is dying. Now, this is not just scare tactics


or fear campaigns, this is the mood that is in fact prevailing across


the European Union. I agree. Where I don't agree, Michael Heseltine is an


old friend of mine. Michael will not accept that the European project has


gone horribly wrong. I would agree with you. It has gone horribly


wrong. But on the other hand, to some of us the benefits, both - the


cultural importance of being part of Europe and also the huge economic


advantage - Let me ask you something personal. Would you prefer now the


European project to wither away and die. That will give us a sense we've


made the right choice? It will. Michael Howard, who is 94, the good


Michael Howard, not the politician. He was saying the other week over


the referendum he said the great lesson in my long lifetime has been


most of the problems are best addressed together with partners and


allies however difficult. That is how some of us feel. The idea of


people celebrating only fools like Boris Johnson or David Davis will


celebrate. I thought in the House of Commons it was a calm and sensible


reaction to Theresa May's statement. Thank you very much. We have


important work to do, as you know. It's time toll decide what to do


with the cake. We weren't allowed the cake knife. We have this one. I


have to ask my guests. You can lower the light. Will you have your cake


and eat it? I will start with you, Billy? I will eat it because I'm


hungry. We will go for the hear. Yeah, the heart of Europe and the


heart of Britain. Oh. As we say our goodbyes we leave you with Europeans


who wanted to bid farewell in return to us. Good night.


Stay. Do go, but please come back home. Hi, Great Britain, it's too


bad you are leaving. I'm really going to miss you I'm going to miss


from England fish and chips and beer. But you're going to miss all


this. It was love at first sight. I thought it was going to be forever.


But you just said to me that you don't love me any more. I love your


pop culture. If people don't care if they get wasted on a week day. God


Save The Queen. You will soon be crawling back. This is very sad


indeed. I do appreciate the cheaper pound. Auf Wiedersehen.


Hello there, warmest day of the year on the way for Thursday. We start


with cloud. We have outbreaks of rain too. That will get pushed


northwards and towards the west with most of the wet weather sitting over


the Irish Sea allowing brighter