27/04/2017 Newsnight


27/04/2017

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The Government comes a cropper in the High Court.

:00:00.:00:07.

Its draft plan for clean air will have to be published before

:00:08.:00:10.

London was enveloped in a 40 mile belt of fog.

:00:11.:00:16.

1952 - 4,000 people died from the Great Smog,

:00:17.:00:19.

Today, the judge cited 23,000 deaths from diesel fuel

:00:20.:00:27.

But are there more votes now in leaving drivers to pollute?

:00:28.:00:31.

This man was Energy Secretary in the last government.

:00:32.:00:33.

Donald Trump celebrates 100 days in the White House this weekend.

:00:34.:00:41.

We're in post industrial Detroit where the white working class voters

:00:42.:00:44.

His spirit spoke to their need for a change.

:00:45.:00:48.

When they heard somebody say, "I'm going to remember you,

:00:49.:00:50.

I'm going to speak directly to you, I'm going to fix the problem,

:00:51.:00:53.

I'm the man to do it, based on my experience",

:00:54.:00:56.

he won over the hearts and the minds of the tens of millions of people.

:00:57.:01:00.

Armando Ianucci and the new president of the National Union

:01:01.:01:02.

of Students on getting young people to vote.

:01:03.:01:04.

I remember one very senior minister telling me,

:01:05.:01:06.

that if it was the last day of an election campaign and he had

:01:07.:01:10.

a choice between canvassing a hall of residence or an old people's

:01:11.:01:13.

home, you do the old people's home any day.

:01:14.:01:31.

23,500 deaths a year from nitrogen dioxide poisoning.

:01:32.:01:38.

That figure was cited by the High Court judge today

:01:39.:01:40.

in his ruling that the Government cannot block the publication

:01:41.:01:44.

of their draft clean air plan until after the general election.

:01:45.:01:48.

They claimed publication would "drop a controversial bomb" into the mix

:01:49.:01:51.

of local and national elections, but that didn't wash,

:01:52.:01:55.

and after the local elections we'll find out what Theresa May plans

:01:56.:01:58.

to do about reducing dirty diesel - the main culprit.

:01:59.:02:02.

The Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, said he hoped that the government

:02:03.:02:05.

will urgently introduce a diesel scrappage fund to rid our streets

:02:06.:02:08.

of the dirtiest cars, and give financial incentives

:02:09.:02:10.

Here's our technology editor, David Grossman.

:02:11.:02:25.

How does the Government plan to clean up our air? It is as important

:02:26.:02:33.

a question as it is urgent. But ministers are fighting shy of

:02:34.:02:37.

providing any answers. By 4pm on Monday they should have

:02:38.:02:41.

published their plan, but they asked the High Court for a delay, until

:02:42.:02:45.

after the general election. The judge though, agreed with the

:02:46.:02:50.

organisation that had taken them to court in the first place, Client

:02:51.:02:55.

Earth The judge listened to claims it kneed to delay, and he rejected

:02:56.:03:02.

them vigorously, and is keeping the Government to the deadline to

:03:03.:03:07.

release the final plan on July 31. The judge was forthright about the

:03:08.:03:10.

cost of delays any plan, what did you make of that? The judge has read

:03:11.:03:16.

the evidence, and was Defra's own evidence that up to 40,000 people a

:03:17.:03:22.

year die of air pollution in the UK. And what the judge said is merely

:03:23.:03:26.

because there is an election going on, doesn't trump the public health.

:03:27.:03:29.

This is not a political issue, one day of delay is important. Weeks or

:03:30.:03:33.

months is intolerable. That is what the judge decided and in my view he

:03:34.:03:37.

was right. Make no mistake this was a huge blow

:03:38.:03:41.

to the Government's attempt to keep a lid on the growing scandal of air

:03:42.:03:46.

pollution. The young was in fact contemptuous on the goot's attempt

:03:47.:03:49.

to delay again the publication of the a plan the clean-up the air. He

:03:50.:03:54.

told them in terms to get on with it because delays mean people are

:03:55.:04:00.

dying. In his judgment, the judge said:

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A big contributor to this problem say researchers is the Government

:04:16.:04:21.

encouraging drives to buy diesel cars because they produce less CO2

:04:22.:04:26.

than petrol cars. Diesel went from being under 10% of sales in 1995, to

:04:27.:04:30.

over half by the start of this decade.

:04:31.:04:37.

People who bought diesels in good faith need had been to traps for to

:04:38.:04:41.

clean vehicle, that is part of what needs to happen, hence the carefully

:04:42.:04:46.

crafted scrappage scheme, but it needs to happen, we need to get rid

:04:47.:04:51.

of diesel, phase out diesel as soon as possible and ultimately petrol

:04:52.:04:54.

too. What we didn't know, is that the

:04:55.:04:59.

environmental test that diesel vehicles had to meet boar no

:05:00.:05:04.

relation to real world conditions so the amount of nitrogen dioxide they

:05:05.:05:08.

pumped out, was far in excess of what the Government was expecting.

:05:09.:05:13.

For example, the amount of nitrogen dioxide measured by this testing

:05:14.:05:18.

site on London's Marylebone Road was double the EU legal limit last year.

:05:19.:05:22.

The Government's problem is not so much presenting the plan as the

:05:23.:05:26.

price tag. Who is going to be made to pay? The people who made the

:05:27.:05:30.

diesel car, the people who drive them? Or the taxpayer? Either way

:05:31.:05:35.

the best time to present such a massive bill, is not right before a

:05:36.:05:40.

general election. One group that represents drivers

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fears that diesel owners will get punished for the simple reason they

:05:45.:05:48.

are the easiest to tax. Only 10% of the problem comes from diesel cars.

:05:49.:05:55.

90% comes from buses and trains and roadside construction equipment.

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Even, you are looking at boilers from commercial outlets in London.

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90% of nitrogen dioxide comes from those source, only 10% comes from

:06:07.:06:13.

car, that what we are concern about. Those owners are all expected to pay

:06:14.:06:19.

a tax hike, and that is wrong. The Government we are told hasn't

:06:20.:06:24.

decided what to do next. But, as things stand, ministers will have to

:06:25.:06:28.

publish their draft plan, in just 12 days' time.

:06:29.:06:32.

Ed Davey is a Liberal Democrat MP who served in the coalition

:06:33.:06:35.

government as Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change

:06:36.:06:40.

Matthew Pencharz was London's Deputy Mayor

:06:41.:06:42.

for Environment Energy under Boris Johnson - and now works

:06:43.:06:45.

The statistics are shocking. Why does it need a court to make the

:06:46.:06:56.

Government come clean on plans for diesel? Well, it is good question.

:06:57.:07:00.

Ministers should be hanging their heads in shame. They have

:07:01.:07:05.

prevaricated. They are trying to hide this from the electorate when

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this is a public health scanle. People talk about public health

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issues but the air pollution, the damage it does to health is bigger

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than the crisis of obesity and alcohol abuse, it is that

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significant. There was no justification for the delay, it was

:07:20.:07:24.

going to be some huge controversy if it came out before the general

:07:25.:07:28.

election, what could that be? Your report sums it up. They don't want

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to go into an election, with punishing diesel drives, that

:07:35.:07:39.

doesn't strike me as good governance, but I think politicians

:07:40.:07:42.

on the stump don't want to face as their QC put it the Tory tax on

:07:43.:07:47.

diesel plan. But we have known about this problem for years and since

:07:48.:07:51.

2010 we have been nowhere near the EU limit so it a plague on all your

:07:52.:07:55.

house, every politician, every adviser. Liberal Democrats took this

:07:56.:08:04.

seriously. Vince Cable made big steps forward with electric

:08:05.:08:07.

vehicles. I did a lot on energy efficiency in homes because that is

:08:08.:08:11.

important, because a lot of the nitrogen dioxide comes from burning

:08:12.:08:17.

gas, so we took a big issue. Let us be clear, I would suggest the

:08:18.:08:21.

coalition was perhaps no better because the environmentmental audit

:08:22.:08:24.

committee in 2014 said the Government failed to face the

:08:25.:08:26.

problem. You were the government. We were the Liberal Democrat side of

:08:27.:08:29.

the Government. You were the Government. The Liberal Democrats

:08:30.:08:32.

took action, our Conservative colleagues wouldn't. This, the

:08:33.:08:37.

people who are in charge of this are people like Owen part son at Defra

:08:38.:08:43.

who failed to take it seriously. Norman Baker did, I did, Vince Cable

:08:44.:08:47.

did. But you were impotent. We took action which helped but our

:08:48.:08:50.

colleagues time and again refused to act. I am 23409 suggesting you are

:08:51.:08:54.

the Conservative Government, you were the deputy mayor under Boris

:08:55.:08:58.

Johnson, what do you think the measures are in the draft plan?

:08:59.:09:03.

Well, the first thing I should say for my experience, the coalition

:09:04.:09:08.

Government didn't step up until it was forced to by losingings, in the

:09:09.:09:13.

Supreme Court round two years ago, and from my experience at City Hall,

:09:14.:09:18.

Liberal Democrat ministers were not, were just as difficult to engage

:09:19.:09:23.

with, I guess than their Conservative counter pars. We took

:09:24.:09:29.

action. Let me answer that point. Clear examples of actions we took.

:09:30.:09:33.

We took action but Boris Johnson went to Brussels to try to argue and

:09:34.:09:38.

make coalitions to undermine the European standards. So Boris

:09:39.:09:41.

Johnson, far from showing leadership, he tried to undermine

:09:42.:09:48.

action on air pollution. And of course, you know, 2014, from 2010 to

:09:49.:09:53.

2014, you were so far behind in London, Boris Johnson did not do

:09:54.:09:58.

enough to reduce emissions nitrogen dioxide. There is a few things I

:09:59.:10:03.

would like to challenge. The first about going to Brussels to water

:10:04.:10:07.

down the rule, that wasn't true. When I went to Brussels it was to

:10:08.:10:13.

get the diesel real world driving tests to work properly. And we had a

:10:14.:10:18.

coalition of other heavily populated industrial areas of Europe, around

:10:19.:10:23.

going to the Commission, trying to get united action... You are not

:10:24.:10:27.

going to have to worry about that for much longer. Can we go back to

:10:28.:10:31.

the point. People would like to know, what will in you view be the

:10:32.:10:35.

principle measures in the draft plans? I think we will see more

:10:36.:10:41.

clean air zone, so we saw my former boss Boris Johnson create the ultra

:10:42.:10:46.

low-emission zone and kudos to Sadiq Khan is bringing forward, he is

:10:47.:10:50.

bringing them faster than we were. That is is a good thing. You will

:10:51.:10:53.

see the Government bringing more clean air zones in. My concern is

:10:54.:10:57.

they are a bit of a blunt instrument. But the cost. It is not

:10:58.:11:03.

so much what you do, is the cost of, what is the cost of do deucing it?

:11:04.:11:09.

There is a huge cost on people's health. There is an overall saving

:11:10.:11:14.

if you take it over a period of years and therefore the Government

:11:15.:11:18.

can't hide behind cost, that is an excuse for not taking... But if, if

:11:19.:11:24.

the action is, is going to be tough, and it comes out of, I assume the

:11:25.:11:29.

reason the Government did not want this to come out before the election

:11:30.:11:34.

because it will have consequences, for the so-called white van man who

:11:35.:11:38.

will be hit badly. It is right about the medical and health impact and

:11:39.:11:42.

the cost to the NHS. And that will be spread widely across society. The

:11:43.:11:47.

difficult for the politician is, that bringing forward these diesel

:11:48.:11:52.

bans or charges, is you are imposing high costs on a relatively few

:11:53.:11:56.

number of people, so if you look at the impact assessments for the clean

:11:57.:12:00.

air zones, the original plan the High Court ruled illegal, that was a

:12:01.:12:05.

billion pounds, if you look at what the compliance cost it was 250

:12:06.:12:08.

million in one year. Briefly is it wrong to go after diesel drivers? It

:12:09.:12:13.

was supposedly according to the witness in that film it was only

:12:14.:12:17.

10%. We can help diesel drivers go to electric vehicles but it is not

:12:18.:12:22.

just diesel cars it is lorry, training, other aspects if we are

:12:23.:12:27.

able to use less gas... And that will be in the plans? It is

:12:28.:12:31.

certainly Liberal Democrat plans. Thank you very much indeed.

:12:32.:12:32.

Well, let's turn to another potential headache for

:12:33.:12:39.

the Conseratives ahead of the general election: what should

:12:40.:12:41.

or should they not promise voters they will do on the amount

:12:42.:12:44.

Nick Watt's here with some insight on their thoughts.

:12:45.:12:48.

I Philip Hammond buzz badly burned in his recent budget when he said he

:12:49.:12:56.

would increase the rate of national insurance contributions for the

:12:57.:13:00.

self-employed. He quickly withdrew that after it district he

:13:01.:13:03.

contradicted the last Conservative manifesto which said there would be

:13:04.:13:08.

no raise in income tax, VAT on National Insurance contributions so

:13:09.:13:11.

the Chancellor wants to avoid what he regards as the transactional

:13:12.:13:15.

approach of his predecessor, but here is his dilemma, he does not

:13:16.:13:20.

want to make specific commitments, that would bind his hands, but he

:13:21.:13:26.

does need to make what allies are describing as measurable commitments

:13:27.:13:29.

to give him credibility as a low tax party, and to allow him to attack

:13:30.:13:34.

Labour as a high tack party. What might we see in the manifesto on

:13:35.:13:39.

tax? Might we have an echo of the formula that Philip Hammond helped

:13:40.:13:42.

George Osborne draw up in the years when they were in opposition before

:13:43.:13:47.

the financial crash which was that a future Conservative Government would

:13:48.:13:50.

share the proceeds of growth to fund tax cuts and spending increases but

:13:51.:13:54.

the Hammond version would be simpler, it would say as the economy

:13:55.:13:59.

grows, the tax burden should fall, but, he may go a step further, there

:14:00.:14:04.

is an idea that has been examined in the Treasury, and that says you

:14:05.:14:07.

would give a commitment, that you would not increase the basic higher

:14:08.:14:13.

or additional tax rates, but the Chancellor would need wriggle room

:14:14.:14:18.

to raise revenue so would rely on an old friend of the Treasury, called

:14:19.:14:22.

fiscal drag, what that means is do you raise the threshold at which

:14:23.:14:29.

people pay hiring tax and that means more people would pay that 40%

:14:30.:14:32.

higher tax rate. Thank you.

:14:33.:14:33.

On Saturday Donald Trump will have been President and Commander

:14:34.:14:37.

He's got very little legislation through Congress and his approval

:14:38.:14:41.

ratings don't look good, 41% - substantially lower

:14:42.:14:43.

than any other other modern president at this stage in his term.

:14:44.:14:46.

But how is he faring among the working class white voters

:14:47.:14:49.

who ditched the Democrats and propelled him to the White House

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on the promise that he would make America great again by making mines

:14:52.:14:55.

factories and steel mills come back to life?

:14:56.:14:56.

Our diplomatic editor Mark Urban has been to Detroit where blue collar

:14:57.:15:02.

workers put all their hopes in Donald Trump.

:15:03.:15:29.

If you want to see rusted-out factories scattered

:15:30.:15:32.

Michigan voted twice for Obama but last November

:15:33.:15:38.

With its recent history of industrial decline,

:15:39.:15:49.

his 'Make America great again' message carried the state.

:15:50.:15:54.

When they heard somebody say "I'm going to remember you,

:15:55.:15:59.

I'm going to speak directly to you, I'm going to fix the problem,

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I'm the man to do it based on my experience,"

:16:03.:16:05.

he won over the hearts and minds of the tens of millions of people,

:16:06.:16:09.

and including the Michiganders that turned the state red.

:16:10.:16:17.

So where better to look for the voters' verdict on those

:16:18.:16:21.

Of course in a neighbourhood like this in Detroit many

:16:22.:16:36.

of the first hundred days issues that resonate in Washington have no

:16:37.:16:39.

meaning whatsoever and if you come here looking for signs of buyers'

:16:40.:16:45.

regret on the part of Trump voters, you'll be disappointed.

:16:46.:16:49.

In the post-apocalyptic remains of Detroit's industrial heyday,

:16:50.:16:54.

Alan Hill scavenges metal and looks to his president for change.

:16:55.:16:57.

The previous administration seemed to alienate people's ideas

:16:58.:17:10.

and broke their dreams and Trump has put a lot of faith back

:17:11.:17:13.

And out where they still produce vehicles in vast quantities,

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you'll hear similar expressions of faith in the president.

:17:18.:17:30.

50% of the union members in my plant voted for Donald Trump.

:17:31.:17:33.

Across the road from the Ford plant where he works,

:17:34.:17:35.

Brian explained why so many blue-collar workers here deserted

:17:36.:17:38.

the Democrats and why Trump's record so far doesn't disappoint.

:17:39.:17:40.

I am 100% satisfied with Donald Trump's efforts to this point.

:17:41.:17:45.

I think he has fought very hard to do exactly what he pledged to do

:17:46.:17:51.

in terms of immigration policy, securing our borders,

:17:52.:17:53.

I have been very disappointed, however, with Congress -

:17:54.:18:03.

both Democrats and Republicans - for them not being able to implement

:18:04.:18:05.

Of course, there are plenty of Trump critics here, too.

:18:06.:18:16.

Most notably for his immigration executive orders.

:18:17.:18:22.

The largest Muslim population in the country is in my district.

:18:23.:18:28.

Targeting people because of their faith, of religion,

:18:29.:18:31.

I know he talked about it, but you just don't understand how

:18:32.:18:37.

these communities are being divided with fear and hatred.

:18:38.:18:41.

But in some ways, it's also communities coming together.

:18:42.:18:48.

You've never seen them come together before,

:18:49.:18:50.

and that gives you a feeling of hope in some ways, but this

:18:51.:18:53.

Issues of security, national and economic,

:18:54.:19:01.

have long run harmoniously together in this state.

:19:02.:19:05.

The Yankee Museum maintains this pristine B-17 and it was here

:19:06.:19:15.

when it opened at Willow Run, Michigan, that the world's

:19:16.:19:17.

And they're coming off the assembly line as fast

:19:18.:19:21.

They constructed more than 8000 Liberator bombers here,

:19:22.:19:26.

applying the car industry's manufacturing methods

:19:27.:19:28.

The fact of the matter was every 55 minutes an aircraft was coming

:19:29.:19:34.

off a production line, just in this plant alone,

:19:35.:19:36.

and Germany, Japan, our enemies in the Mediterranean,

:19:37.:19:38.

there was no way to be able to compete with that

:19:39.:19:41.

So President Trump came to Willow Run last month, promising

:19:42.:19:48.

This facility, this city and this nation will once again shine

:19:49.:19:54.

So this, it's clear, is the Trump style.

:19:55.:20:03.

A permanent campaign and a one-man assembly-line

:20:04.:20:05.

One reason why Trump came to Willow Run is because here,

:20:06.:20:18.

on a part of the old bomb factory, they're planning a test

:20:19.:20:21.

facility for the automated vehicles of the future.

:20:22.:20:23.

So what do those who met him think of Trump's promise

:20:24.:20:26.

I couldn't hazard a guess on what that would mean for jobs

:20:27.:20:32.

I will say this, that if the technology's going

:20:33.:20:37.

to revolutionise the way that we move people and goods,

:20:38.:20:42.

and to that extent, if we don't focus on this technology,

:20:43.:20:46.

we will lose a lot more, a lot more jobs that are around

:20:47.:20:49.

engineering and making the system work, making vehicles work.

:20:50.:20:53.

Near the plant, the Bomber diner serves up 'bomber burgers'

:20:54.:20:56.

It's popular with veterans and those who served have

:20:57.:21:04.

often been unimpressed with their new President's

:21:05.:21:05.

He is learning how complex things are, he thought they were simple.

:21:06.:21:19.

He said, "Who knew health care could be so complicated?"

:21:20.:21:21.

Now he's saying "Who knew that international relations

:21:22.:21:23.

could be so complicated, who knew that Korea or Syria

:21:24.:21:25.

And so he's really done nothing in 100 days other than to get

:21:26.:21:30.

a Supreme Court judge put on the bench.

:21:31.:21:36.

So what, I asked the woman who ran Trump's campaign in the state,

:21:37.:21:39.

should we make of the discarded promises or admissions

:21:40.:21:42.

that he hadn't realised it was all so complicated?

:21:43.:21:45.

That's what the American people wanted.

:21:46.:21:46.

We wanted someone to say, "Wow, this is tougher than I imagined."

:21:47.:21:49.

I think that message of honesty speaks to the voters

:21:50.:21:51.

For the president to say "This is tougher than I thought

:21:52.:22:00.

it was going to be", or "I'm surprised by how complicated

:22:01.:22:03.

it is," I think that speaks to his to his strength as a man,

:22:04.:22:06.

And if the issue of preserving American jobs is paramount here

:22:07.:22:12.

Last month, General Motors started shedding more than 1000 jobs

:22:13.:22:16.

Some are going elsewhere in the US but each new factory announcement

:22:17.:22:22.

now gets scrutinised as a success or failure for Trump and the fight

:22:23.:22:28.

You will hear any number of reasons advanced for why things like this

:22:29.:22:33.

From the strength of the dollar, that's one that President Trump

:22:34.:22:41.

himself has used, to people here locally blaming uncompetitive

:22:42.:22:43.

dumping of goods, cheaper production elsewhere,

:22:44.:22:45.

And it is that sort of message that carried President Trump to power

:22:46.:22:56.

but which also now informs the debate in a place like this,

:22:57.:23:03.

where even some leading members of the Democratic Party are echoing

:23:04.:23:05.

the President's protectionist language.

:23:06.:23:06.

What we need is a level playing field so we need to make

:23:07.:23:10.

sure that people aren't manipulating their currency.

:23:11.:23:11.

I want to see currency manipulation enforcement.

:23:12.:23:18.

Now I'm hearing you as a Democrat congresswoman effectively urging

:23:19.:23:20.

Trump to remain true to his campaign platform.

:23:21.:23:28.

But go look, you'll find me in August of 2015,

:23:29.:23:32.

saying Donald Trump was exciting people.

:23:33.:23:37.

And I think that people - and I don't agree with him

:23:38.:23:48.

on many things he's done but my responsibility

:23:49.:23:51.

is to work for the working men and women in our districts.

:23:52.:23:53.

And if he's going to do something that's going to fix bad trade

:23:54.:23:57.

policies, my job is to work with him to do that.

:23:58.:23:59.

Viewed from Michigan or middle American generally,

:24:00.:24:06.

the effort to revive the economy and protect jobs form the central

:24:07.:24:09.

narrative of Trump's administration so far.

:24:10.:24:11.

In that sense, he's redefined politics here, even if he's far

:24:12.:24:14.

from demonstrating he's found the answers.

:24:15.:24:23.

Mark, we saw there Trump voters standing by their man.

:24:24.:24:30.

And we're getting a clearer sense of his plan to

:24:31.:24:32.

Absolutely. If you are in a place like Michigan, you think, how can

:24:33.:24:45.

you really reverse the tide of industrial decline? One of the key

:24:46.:24:50.

answers unveiled this week is an ambitious plan for tax reform. It is

:24:51.:24:55.

being billed as the most ambitious ever. Central to that, plans

:24:56.:25:00.

announced by the Treasury Secretary here to cut corporation tax is by a

:25:01.:25:09.

huge margin, from 35% to just 15%. And to cut personal taxation fans

:25:10.:25:17.

from 7% to 3%, to reduce the overall burden of taxation. They argue that

:25:18.:25:23.

if they can't these corporate taxes, many companies, famously Apple,

:25:24.:25:26.

which has kept hundreds of billions in profits overseas, will repatriate

:25:27.:25:34.

those monies, the tax take will go up and offset by the fact that they

:25:35.:25:39.

are cutting it to 15%, you have a massive decrease in tax. And that

:25:40.:25:43.

that money, as it is repatriated, could also be used to fund research

:25:44.:25:48.

and development and new factories and all the rest of it. That is

:25:49.:25:53.

their message but many Republicans in the Senate and Congress do not

:25:54.:25:58.

believe that message. They feel that this is a dangerous gamble, that the

:25:59.:26:03.

loss of tax receipts could easily be $1 trillion in the next few years of

:26:04.:26:07.

this ambitious change, and how on earth will it be funded other than

:26:08.:26:12.

by running up huge debt? That, if you like, will be the central gamble

:26:13.:26:18.

of the Trump platform to revive the economy. Mark, thank you.

:26:19.:26:20.

Now Viewsnight, the part of the programme designed

:26:21.:26:22.

While the manifesto writers are wrestling with what to promise

:26:23.:26:27.

and not to promise after June 8th, one of David Cameron's

:26:28.:26:30.

former speechwriters, the commentator Julian Glover

:26:31.:26:31.

suggests a radical way to make our highways...super.

:26:32.:26:42.

It's time to pay as you drive. No one likes roads. We are not fans of

:26:43.:26:52.

the M25. That was Julian Glover,

:26:53.:28:18.

who is also director of the Wolfson Economics Prize

:28:19.:28:20.

which this year is looking at ideas In the 2015 election,

:28:21.:28:23.

as per usual fewer young people voted than any other age group -

:28:24.:28:33.

following an established trend. And the chasm was at its deepest

:28:34.:28:40.

between the youngest and the oldest - so 43% of 18-24s put a paper

:28:41.:28:43.

in the ballot box, as against The writer and satirist

:28:44.:28:46.

Armando Iannucci has become so exercised about this disconnect,

:28:47.:28:51.

that he's been trying to brew up a Twitter storm,

:28:52.:28:54.

with a campaign to get three million 18-24 year olds to register to vote

:28:55.:28:57.

before the deadline of May 22nd. "I beg you on my gnarled and brittle

:28:58.:29:01.

knees, register to vote, then vote." I spoke earlier to the man who likes

:29:02.:29:12.

to make a mockery of politicians about his desperation,

:29:13.:29:15.

to get young people I asked him whether he really

:29:16.:29:17.

believed that young people held this I think it's important that young

:29:18.:29:21.

people engage as much as possible in the election,

:29:22.:29:30.

because if they don't, they lose. If you look at how politics has

:29:31.:29:32.

conducted itself over the 20 years, the young vote has gone down,

:29:33.:29:35.

so a lot fewer voters between 18 and 24 vote than,

:29:36.:29:38.

say, voters over 65, so as a result, people over 65

:29:39.:29:40.

are courted by politicians. I remember one very senior minister

:29:41.:29:49.

telling me that if it was the last day of an election campaign,

:29:50.:29:52.

and he had a choice between canvassing a hall

:29:53.:29:55.

of residence or an old people's home, you do the old people's home

:29:56.:29:58.

any day because they're the ones And as a result, young people have

:29:59.:30:01.

been abused by the system. It's young people who have had,

:30:02.:30:12.

you know, their housing benefit cut, their Education Maintenance

:30:13.:30:15.

Allowance cut, they're not part of the living wage until age 25,

:30:16.:30:17.

they're an easy target. So the more young people vote,

:30:18.:30:19.

irrespective of who they vote for, the more they have something that

:30:20.:30:22.

politicians are after, But don't you want young people

:30:23.:30:24.

to vote in a particular way? So you would like young people,

:30:25.:30:29.

I would imagine, to vote for Remain candidates,

:30:30.:30:32.

or tactically vote You only want them to vote

:30:33.:30:33.

if they vote your way. No, no, no, this is

:30:34.:30:41.

how democracy works. I saw one opinion poll that showed

:30:42.:30:43.

that young people might split more in favour

:30:44.:30:48.

of the Tories this election. I'd rather they voted

:30:49.:30:50.

than they didn't vote. It's also about how politics

:30:51.:30:53.

is going to function in the future. If politicians rely more and more

:30:54.:30:56.

on the fewer and fewer people who do come out in elections,

:30:57.:30:59.

it does mean that a larger percentage of the population are

:31:00.:31:01.

just ignored and forgotten about. So should young people be allowed

:31:02.:31:09.

to vote at 16, as they did Yes, initially when that was

:31:10.:31:12.

announced in Scotland, I was a bit concerned,

:31:13.:31:15.

but the level of debate, the excitement and also the fact

:31:16.:31:18.

that 16 and 17-year-olds for the first time felt really

:31:19.:31:20.

involved in fundamentally important decisions about their country's

:31:21.:31:23.

future, really galvanised an interest in politics,

:31:24.:31:24.

so I am all for opening that up. David Cameron was given

:31:25.:31:27.

the opportunity to allow 16, 17-year-olds to vote in the EU

:31:28.:31:29.

referendum and he said no, because he was thinking about how it

:31:30.:31:32.

might affect the Tory vote If he had said yes, then he may well

:31:33.:31:35.

be Prime Minister still. But don't people 65-plus have

:31:36.:31:50.

as a legitimate right to have their views heard

:31:51.:31:52.

as people under 25? I am also saying, if you think none

:31:53.:31:56.

of the above, then spoil your paper, I don't care, I just want you to get

:31:57.:32:03.

out and register, because as soon as you register you have that one

:32:04.:32:06.

thing that a politician needs off Isn't there a terrific irony in this

:32:07.:32:09.

- you have spent much of your life writing brilliant satire

:32:10.:32:22.

about the terrible state our politicians are in, you know,

:32:23.:32:24.

The Thick Of It here, Veep in America, satirising

:32:25.:32:26.

politicians for being venal, being stupid, pursuing their own

:32:27.:32:28.

agendas, so you kind People say why should

:32:29.:32:30.

I care about them? What has happened there is I have

:32:31.:32:37.

responded to that in my own way, which is through doing things

:32:38.:32:41.

like The Thick Of It. I think you cannot change politics -

:32:42.:32:44.

if you are angry like I've been angry about the state of politics,

:32:45.:32:49.

but if you care about politics as much as I care,

:32:50.:32:51.

you have to do something, and I think that something must

:32:52.:32:54.

start with at least registering, showing an interest,

:32:55.:32:57.

and then getting out and voting. Are you are putting your hand

:32:58.:32:59.

on your heart and saying it doesn't matter to you if every single person

:33:00.:33:07.

between 18 and 25 was, for example, to vote for Theresa May,

:33:08.:33:10.

it wouldn't matter to you? A British Prime Minister,

:33:11.:33:13.

if they have a massive majority, have total power, so I would say

:33:14.:33:17.

even though the headlines are saying huge majorities are inevitable,

:33:18.:33:20.

if young people are looking for a reason to try and make any

:33:21.:33:22.

kind of a difference, then at the very least they might be

:33:23.:33:25.

interested in seeing that majority, that total power, that sort

:33:26.:33:28.

of elected dictatorship, as Lord Hailsham once

:33:29.:33:30.

described it, is minimised. Here we are, here you are,

:33:31.:33:39.

and why should young They know, they have

:33:40.:33:41.

made up their minds, they understand politics,

:33:42.:33:44.

they understand the system, they don't necessarily want

:33:45.:33:46.

you to tell them what to do? You invited me on the programme,

:33:47.:33:52.

I didn't ring up to ask. But you have been

:33:53.:33:55.

tweeting like crazy. Yes, well, you have been

:33:56.:33:58.

reading my tweets and responding. So here you are, Armando Ianucci,

:33:59.:34:00.

who is an Italian Scot, who lives near London,

:34:01.:34:04.

who plies his trade sometimes across the Atlantic,

:34:05.:34:06.

what kind of Britain I want to live in a Britain that has

:34:07.:34:08.

a fully functioning democracy. I have been writing for some time

:34:09.:34:13.

about how people are frustrated by - I mean we now have a system,

:34:14.:34:16.

we still have a system where by in the last election,

:34:17.:34:19.

37% of the people who voted, voted And yet they gain a majority,

:34:20.:34:23.

a working majority of, Listening to when Theresa May

:34:24.:34:30.

announced the election, and said she was announcing it

:34:31.:34:33.

because Parliament couldn't agree Now that sounded to me like how

:34:34.:34:36.

a proper functioning demock should work, and the fact

:34:37.:34:45.

she could casually announce that as a flaw in the system,

:34:46.:34:55.

that needs to be corrected, and ask for a mandate that

:34:56.:34:58.

allows her to get whatever she wants, without opposition,

:34:59.:35:03.

I find a worrying trend. Do you see a possibility

:35:04.:35:10.

of a satirical episode in that? Well, let's see how it plays out

:35:11.:35:15.

in front of us in reality first. So are you ready to go back

:35:16.:35:20.

into television satire? I just want to get this election

:35:21.:35:24.

out of the way first. Well, I'm now joined

:35:25.:35:30.

by Shakira Martin, who just yesterday won the election to become

:35:31.:35:35.

the new President of O raise revenue so would rely on an

:35:36.:35:42.

old friend of the Treasury, called fiscal drag, what that means is do

:35:43.:35:44.

you raise the threshold at which people pay hiring tax and that means

:35:45.:35:47.

more people would pay that 40% higher tax rate.

:35:48.:35:48.

Thank you. Congratulations. Thank you very

:35:49.:35:50.

much. Let us deal with national politics. Armando Ianucci says

:35:51.:35:51.

politicianings are obsessed with older people, that is the votes they

:35:52.:35:55.

are trying to court. Let us take something like the triple lock on

:35:56.:36:00.

pensions which Jeremy Corbyn is wedded to, more so than the Tory,

:36:01.:36:05.

the triple lock on pensions guarantees them 2.5% increase a

:36:06.:36:11.

year, why not campaign to take that away from pensioner, and use it for

:36:12.:36:19.

increasing apprenticeship wages, reducing tuition fees, making

:36:20.:36:22.

affordable rents for young people, why not take that and say don't

:36:23.:36:27.

spend it there, spend it here? So I think there is a few thing,

:36:28.:36:31.

pensioners go out and vote it is a guaranteed vote, so when elections

:36:32.:36:34.

are happening, they are guaranteed to come out so they need to have a

:36:35.:36:39.

promise, to the older generation, and that is through pension. That is

:36:40.:36:44.

a kind of chicken and egg, because actually, they pander to them, you

:36:45.:36:48.

could say, because they come out and vote, but if young people voted they

:36:49.:36:53.

might pander to you. There is a few things, it is about making politics

:36:54.:36:56.

engagele and relatable to young people. Many young people students I

:36:57.:37:02.

speak to they find politics unrelatable when they see

:37:03.:37:06.

politicians speaking they don't look like them, they don't sound like

:37:07.:37:11.

them, they don't see how the link is related to their every day life.

:37:12.:37:17.

They are disenfranchised in politics. Do they think that because

:37:18.:37:23.

of the way politics are conducted on student campuses because it is

:37:24.:37:29.

narrow and niche and things like trans issue, no platforming,

:37:30.:37:33.

cultural appropriation, that is, it I would say it doesn't Brook broad

:37:34.:37:36.

argument, it looks like, you know, you can't afford to argue with this

:37:37.:37:41.

or you will be struck down. I think it is more simple. Before we can get

:37:42.:37:45.

young people to understand the importance of freedom of speech, we

:37:46.:37:49.

need to get them to understand the importance of shaping their

:37:50.:37:52.

generation and the society they would like to live in, and the

:37:53.:37:58.

importance of you know, them exercising their democratic right by

:37:59.:38:01.

voting and that is the way in which they can make change. But, do you

:38:02.:38:06.

think that young people, particularly people on campus who

:38:07.:38:11.

need to be more thick skinned about people holding different views, so

:38:12.:38:15.

someone like Germaine Greer should be invited to universities. I

:38:16.:38:19.

believe we should encourage healthy debate, and a place for university

:38:20.:38:23.

should be a place for people to learn, as the NUS is supporting

:38:24.:38:29.

students unions in doing so. Is there too much on, in you know,

:38:30.:38:34.

colleges and in university, too much intolerance to views that don't

:38:35.:38:37.

support your own? I think that there is is a need for some healthy

:38:38.:38:42.

discussion, and we need to promote the importance of bringing people

:38:43.:38:47.

together, to have healthy debate and respecting differences, and freedom

:38:48.:38:51.

of speech but coming up with solutions together to be able to

:38:52.:38:54.

make change. You are President-elect of one of the biggest trade unions

:38:55.:38:58.

in this country, I would think that you should be the heart of this

:38:59.:39:02.

election, your policies should be something that politicians court,

:39:03.:39:06.

need to talk to you about things so for example, you know we hear that

:39:07.:39:10.

on tuition fee, tuition fees are going to be increased, there won't

:39:11.:39:14.

be a commensurate increase in standards but on the question of

:39:15.:39:18.

tuition fees where is your big platform that you as leader,

:39:19.:39:22.

President-elect of a union will take out and make politicians listen to

:39:23.:39:26.

you? So it is about getting young people to get the argument first and

:39:27.:39:30.

understand the importance of free education, I think there is a lot of

:39:31.:39:34.

young people in colleges who will be going on to university or sixth form

:39:35.:39:37.

who don't understand the argument, who don't know when they are making

:39:38.:39:41.

choices about universities that is different values with the proposal

:39:42.:39:46.

of the bill and I am proud of the work that my current Vice President

:39:47.:39:52.

has done, in separating the links between raising tuition fees and

:39:53.:39:55.

quality, we think that students should be entitled to high quality

:39:56.:39:59.

but not at the detriment of the you can afford it or not. They are not

:40:00.:40:05.

registered to vote. Isn't it your job make them do that? It is

:40:06.:40:10.

definitely our job to go out there and represent them nationally as a

:40:11.:40:14.

national union of student, it is something we have to do

:40:15.:40:18.

collectively. We have to work with communities and organisation, giving

:40:19.:40:21.

political education and citizenship education to let young people

:40:22.:40:25.

understand the importance of voting, and how that influences and shapes a

:40:26.:40:32.

their future. Just one front-page, the EU signal

:40:33.:40:39.

of united Ireland Stokes fears for post-Brexit UK. European leaders are

:40:40.:40:46.

recognising, confirming that Northern Ireland would rejoin the

:40:47.:40:50.

block after Brexit in the event of a vote for Irish reunification. That

:40:51.:40:51.

is it for tonight. We end with news of the death

:40:52.:40:54.

at the age of 86 of Leo Baxendale, the legendary cartoonist

:40:55.:40:58.

from the Beano, who, back in the 1950s, originally

:40:59.:41:00.

created Minnie the Minx, Little Plum, and, most enduringly,

:41:01.:41:02.

The Bash Street Kids. Here they are at the height

:41:03.:41:04.

of their politically incorrect fame.

:41:05.:41:08.

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