19/05/2017 Newsnight

President Trump takes off on his first foreign tour,

but there's no chance of leaving his troubles, and his

If there is evidence is mounting that there might have been efforts

to obstruct justice that would be a parallel back to Nixon and wouldn't

look good for the president. Tonight, as fresh revelations

about Russia and the man he sacked as FBI boss -

who he apparently told the Russians was a "nutjob" -

engulf the Trump White House, we ask whether he can

keep his presidency on the road. Jeremy Corybn's right hand man today

made the bold claim that Labour We ask the Shadow Defence Secretary

what that would mean The little boy who witnessed

the horrific murder of his mother Rachel Nickell 25 years ago

tells his story of the trauma he suffered, and the impact

of relentless press intrusion. All of a sudden we saw this man

lunging forward with a black bag over his shoulder, and then

everything happened. In a matter of seconds I was grabbed, thrown to the

floor, my face dragged across the mud. Seconds later my mother

collapsed next to me. And Newsnight's own battle bus

ventures to the parts of the country You don't get much of a buzz around

here. That's why we are here! This evening, Donald Trump left

Washington for this first Eight days away, visiting five

countries, including Often an outing on the global stage

is an opportunity to draw the heat from domestic travails,

but in Trump's case there's no chance of a let-up back at base,

in a week where it has felt that perhaps the tectonic plates shifted

definitively in the ever-developing scandal over Trump's dealings

with the Russians, and his Tonight, two separate stories

which threaten fresh Our diplomatic editor

Mark Urban is here. No sooner has the President's

playing taken off than two new bombshells were dropped by the

Washington Post and the New York Times. The Washington post saying

that the FBI investigation into possible collusion with Russia in

the election period was gathering pace and had a new person of

interest who was a serving member of the White House staff. People are

speculating on Twitter, some of them quite informed reporters, that that

is none other than Jared Kushner the son-in-law of the president. We

don't know that but that is the speculation. The New York Times

story saying they have a minute, a written record, of that meeting with

the Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov in which President Trump is

quoted as saying that Comey the director of the FBI was a "nut job",

that he was putting him under pressure over Russia and now that is

taken care of. That does feed those who say this is obstruction of

justice in the case they are trying to make. You wonder if Trump knows

that minutes have been taken. You could say there is a buy the

book answer and people understand the processes involved if this is

going to come to a formal, legal charge, if it's going to get

impeachment. With impeachment the house of representatives have to

vote for it and a lot of the calculation has been, until the

mid-term elections in late 2018, that's not even a possibility

because the Republicans control the house of representatives. Would they

really vote for impeachment. But the pace of the these last two weeks is

causing some people to reassess, and ask if real, hard evidence is

produced by the FBI, or the other investigations on the Hill will

support crumble, and will this become more and more like that

defining presidential scandal, Watergate.

All the President's men made bringing down Richard Nixon seem

like the most romantic of adventures. Particularly if you're a

journalist. Now, many in Washington see the parallels, talk breathlessly

of impeachment, as they watch Donald Trump's legal difficulties multiply.

If there is evidence is mounting that there might have been efforts

to obstruct justice, that would be a parallel back to Nixon and would not

look good for the president. The other thing that I would look for

whether the special counsel is going to bring charges. If we know there

are ongoing criminal investigation is coming out of this

counterintelligence investigation also going on, that's not typical.

Usually you don't see a lot of prosecutions coming out of a

counterintelligence investigation. Depending on who is implicated, that

might spell trouble. Earlier this week it emerged the president had

briefed the Russian Foreign Minister with highly sensitive intelligence.

Bennett leaked that the FBI director sacked Pender memo pressuring to

drop investigations and a fire adviser Mike Flynn. Then on

Wednesday night the Justice Department had appointed a special

counsel to investigate Trump's ties to Russia, prompting claims of a

witchhunt. No president of the United States wants a special

counsel appointed. In the case of President Clinton where he had an

independent counsel, but led to Whitewater and Monica Lewinsky. With

Ronald Reagan we had the arms for hostages situation that tarnished

the end of his term. No president wants a special counsel appointed,

the question is was there an underlying crime in Mr Trump's case.

And so the Watergate analogies begin. The special counsel claims of

obstruction of justice, and Trump's political enemies talking in

impeachment. Key to the drama of Watergate was the character of Deep

Throat, reputedly a deputy director at the FBI who guided reporters that

underground assignations towards their quarry, the president. Well,

that's one of the similarities with today's situation, although now you

could say there are differences. There are so many Deep Throats and

so many reporters pursuing Trump, but according to your prejudice you

could say that's a sign of the resistance at work, or of a deep

conservative establishment trying to thwart his programme of radical

change. We've seen the deep state working round-the-clock... The

President's backers paint what's happening as the revenge of a deep

state against a president elected on a platform of radical change. You

have instance after instance where it is not coincidence, it's fact

that people are leaking classified information to try to harm the Trump

administration. You can have a political agenda, just put your name

in front of it and leaked it with your name attached and get arrested

for its. The president, like Nixon, likes to likes to refer to a

witchhunt, but how far is it now from impeachment? The Case against

Trump of collusion or obstruction of justice isn't yet proven, but

ultimately the judgment of his party is critical, and for that you have

to look to Congress and count the votes. Evidence against him doesn't

have to meet the standards to prosecute him in a court. A bit of

fudge room there and it depends on the support he has. The House would

have to have to vote to impeach, the Senate would have to vote to remove

him, and those are really political issues and will depend on the amount

of support that he has. President Nixon chose to resign before it came

to an actual impeachment, but when he knew his party was slipping away.

Trump may not go so easily, but all eyes will now be on the party and

whether support starts to crumble. Joining us from Washington

is journalist James Fallows, who started his career covering

Nixon's fall in Watergate and went on to become chief speech writer

to President Carter. He's now the national

correspondent for The Atlantic. Good evening. First of all let's

deal with the New York Times story that Trump told the Russians that

Komi was, that the removal of pain me ended the pressure on him and he

went on to call him a "nut job" -- the removal of Comey ended the

pressure on him. The suspicion in most cases like this is you find

some subtle clues of obstruction of justice and the president doing

things because they're some three Domino effect that will reduce

pressure on him. According to these reports, Trump is out right in

saying this was the reason he got rid of FBI director Comey. In any

normal political environment this would be serious trouble for a

president. You say in any normal political environment, so you are

not sure? Yes and the commentary you are having was right that there are

legal enquiries under way but fundamentally this is a political

decision. So far a major difference between this episode and Watergate,

apart from the speed with which things are unfolding, is back during

Watergate there were a number of members of the Republican party who

said, wait a minute, what principles are being violated, what about the

constitution. So far there has been some hand-wringing and concern from

members of the Republican party but none of them have actually voted for

investigations, etc. Let's turn to the Washington Post, that someone

close to the president, speculation is that it is Jared Kushner, is now

a significant person of interest in the enquiry into links between

Russia and the Trump campaign. Is this just another small step king of

the fire or is it important? This reminds me of the actual Watergate

in that news unfolded everyday and you didn't know it would lead. There

are two uncertainties, one is what person of interest means, the other

is whether we are talking about Jared Kushner, Steve Bannon,

somebody close to the president and still on his active-duty service. It

could be a week from now we are looking at this as the domino which

moved things, it could be that some other thing will have occupied our

attention. It is potentially interesting. So these stories, both

of them came out as soon as Trump was wheels up leaving for a foreign

trip. It might suggest that the papers are engaged in some kind of

warfare with the president, and it's not so much the deep state but the

media generally is out to get him. What do you think about that? My

guess is that if either of these publications had had the material

ready to go three hours earlier, they would have used it then. You

could say this is the deadline for a daily paper but it is 24 hour news

cycle now. I think it's when they had the facts they went with it as

soon as they could. Does that suggest that even though when he's

away there may be more dripping out in the next couple of weeks? He's

away now for nine days. How embarrassing will this be to him

abroad, or not so? It is traditionally true that

oversees presidents look stronger but it is hard to see how that can

work with Donald Trump, he has not experienced internationally and he

is going to tricky places, Saudi Arabia and Israel and whenever

things get dicey, his impulse has been to lash out through Twitter or

whatever else and maybe he is under tighter discipline when on Air Force

one but there is wi-fi on that! I think that the momentum of these

revelations is likely to continue while he is overseas. Thank you very

much. Throughout the election,

Newsnight is embedding in the Cumbrian constituency

of Barrow-in-Furness, to capture in close-up

how the campaign looks from the perspective

of one key marginal seat. Barrow's Labour majority of 800,

a Ukip vote of 11% in 2015, and a 60% vote for Brexit,

all make it high on John Woodcock, whilst campaigning

under a Labour ticket, is one of the party's most outspoken

critics of its leader, This week, our film-maker

Nick Blakemore spent time We just hear it on the doorstep,

time and again, people saying: "we've always been Labour,

but we're worried about you nationally,

and we don't know what to do". The national election

is going to be decided elsewhere, and it's going to be decided

in favour of another They have called it because they

know they're going to win. And, I mean, James,

what is your sense of going out There's maybe an 80-90% chance that

they're sticking with us, but there's that remaining 10% that

either aren't sure or they are I feel it is not as high

as 80 or 90%, actually. Hello, I'm Simon Fell,

the Conservative candidate. You kind of, just picture

Theresa May of a morning, setting off to go to Parliament

on the A590, she'd never get there. She would never get

there, would she? And something would be done

about it, because it'd And this is what, I think,

is very frustrating for everybody. It's not to you or anybody else,

but we always feel that this part of the country is,

just get everything palmed off, the dirty work, you know,

the construction, just A Tory nodding dog

won't be there for you. A Tory nodding dog won't be

there for you when it matters. My record shows I've

always put you first. Please re-elect me

on the 8th of June. OK, one more time,

and I may just nail it. Are you campaigning

on the manifesto? So, any discussion of Labour's

manifesto is actually slightly artificial,

because it can show But when people understand,

actually, that the Tories are going to win nationally,

they view it in a different light. It's her policies on

education I don't like. I don't like the way she is putting

pressure on the kids, Justine Greening the Education

Secretary, you know, she is a comprehensive girl,

this is the job she's I think now we are going

to see a bit of a shift We had in Cameron the heir to Blair,

and we now have in Theresa May someone who is recognised as a tough

leader, who will buckle down Her brand of Conservativism

is really different. She wants to turn us

into the workers' party, What makes you qualified

to represent Barrow-in-Furness So you don't live

in the constituency? I've actually put a bet

with a punter, who is going to get sacked first, Corbyn

or Woodcock by Corbyn? I think Nigel Farage is the most

honest man I've seen Prior to that, well,

Enoch Powell, arguably. He was not afraid to hold his line,

even though the rest of the world We've got the Secretary of State

with us to discuss issues on the rail station,

but also the A590 and the A595. I've been up looking

at roads all across Cumbria, both up in Copeland and down

here in Barrow, and the number of things that need doing,

including the A590, probably can't spend the next ten years

going through a farmyard. In Barrow, there are a higher

than average proportion of people on disability living allowance,

so living with disabilities, and they feel that under

a Conservative government they have We don't want to do anything

else but support those people with disabilities

who need that support. But it is reasonable that

when people receive a benefit, that they should have been properly

assessed as to whether they are the right people

to receive that benefit. Simon, it's been almost 25

years since there's been Will anybody from the Shadow

Cabinet be coming to your Well, I would be

delighted if they did! One thing that I know is I've had

really good support from Cat Smith, who is a valiant Shadow Cabinet

member for younger people. Right, first of all I'd

like to thank you for attending. It's a pretty miserable

night out there. To my left, far left, I have Andy

from London and John Woodcock. John Woodcock, who is

the Parliamentary candidate Because there are no

members of Parliament, Anyway, sorry, don't

let me interrupt you! This is a community coming together

to show that we want And through all of the national

staff, who is going to be Prime Minister, this

is what politics is about. I would have been happy if this

general election had been called in 2020,

as was planned. But now it's here, I'm sure

that we are going to make the issue of the post office central

to this campaign. I was actually put in Parliament

to do right by my constituents, We can't pretend to be

something we're not, But what's important

is that there are these Labour voices who'll stand up

for their communities. There are five candidates standing

for election in Barrow-in-Furness. Well, Barrow-in-Furness is a key

centre for defence jobs, and we're going now to examine

the Labour Party's position This week their manifesto launch

boosted Labour's poll ratings to the highest so far

in the campaign. But defence - and in particular

their position on Trident - has been an area of real tension

within the party under Nia Griffith is the Shadow Defence

Secretary and she joins me now. Good evening. That is talk about

this confusion over Trident. There was a line in the leaked draft

manifesto, any Prime Minister should be extremely cautious about ordering

the use of weapons of mass destruction, that disappeared from

the official version. It is clear in the draft version and the final

version that we are fully committed to having a Trident nuclear

deterrent and it is not appropriate to go into detail about how and when

you might use that in the manifesto. We have it, that's deterrent is

there to be used. It is there to be used. It is going to be part of a

strategic defence review? Is that a good idea? When we have a review

coming into government, it is about how we would spend money and what we

would do and in what order, what sort of timetable. It is not about

questioning whether we would have a Trident nuclear deterrent because we

settle that last year. Emily Thornberry tonight suggests that it

was possible that it could be scrapped as part of the defence

review. And indeed, Jeremy Corbyn says that it is part of the

strategic defence, we know his own position and it is different from

the Labour Party's. In a sense, Trident is not secure. In all

respect, Emily is not the Shadow Defence Secretary, I am. We had a

long meeting on Thursday to agree the manifesto as nobody raised the

issue of removing Trident from the manifesto. That was agreed last year

as part of our defence review that we had last year and is part of the

national policy... Emily Thornberry said we're going to have a proper

review and there is no point in reviewing Trident if you are

absolutely committed to it? We are. Emily Thornberry is wrong. Indeed.

Last year we looked at this at the national policy forum and it was

decided to keep the nuclear deterrent and that was reaffirmed...

Three weeks from the general election, the Shadow Defence

Secretary says there is no chance will not be with us, it is a firm

commitment. The Shadow foreign secretary says everything is up for

grabs, it is possible it could be scrapped. We don't know your policy?

I am very clear because it has been reaffirmed every year, we made a

commitment in 2007 to renew the Trident deterrent and that is our

position and commitment to our foreign allies and our industrial

workforce and that has been reaffirmed year after year at Labour

Party Conference and again on Thursday, with the manifesto

meeting, it was fully affirmed by the room. This is a very serious

time, not some count of opposition conversation. 18 months from the

election. There is an election in three weeks, Jeremy Corbyn could be

the Prime Minister, we will have a strategic review, Emily Thornberry

says everything is up for grabs and it could be Trident and the Shadow

Defence Secretary does not say that. You were not even at the manifesto

launch. I was at the meeting last Thursday, when we were looking at

the detail of this programme. It was a money not listening? Not one query

was raised about Trident. On The Andrew Marr Show this month, Jeremy

Corbyn was categoric, there will be no first use of nuclear weapons. It

is not a deterrent? It is important to have the deterrent and that you

are prepared to use it. You will do everything else before, you have a

dramatic means and conventional military means, nobody in any

circumstance would want to use that as your first line of attack. Nobody

is suggesting somebody is going to fire a missile was fired the most

incredible thought but what we are seeing is Jeremy Corbyn said there

would be no first use, it might as well be a very expensive white

elephant. Do you believe you have to be prepared ultimately for first use

if you have nuclear weapons? You have to be prepared, that might be

the circumstance you find yourself in in this very uncertain world and

that is why it is essential we keep that nuclear deterrant but nobody

would put that as the first item on the agenda, what we need to do is

make sure that we actually get in quickly to deal with problems so

they do not escalate. Let us turn to Nato. There is a manifesto

commitment, the same Nato that Jeremy Corbyn called a danger to

world peace and world security? We are fully committed to Nato, it is

the cornerstone of our defence policy and even more important by

coming out of the European Union that we reaffirm that policy and

that we are committed to that 2% spending commitment. Let us say that

Nato is called upon, Russia invades Estonia, for example, Britain is

called upon as a member to put military equipment and personnel in

to resolve that situation. Jeremy Corbyn seems to suggest that we

would not necessarily in certain circumstances come to the aid of a

Nato member militarily? We are fully signed up to the Nato treaty, which

says we would put in that... He is wrong? Of course we all go through

the other processes, also in that treaty, of diplomatic means first

but ultimately, you have to back up your defence... If what we're saying

is you say that if you asked militarily to support Estonia, there

will be no question, Jeremy Corbyn does not say that, I will put it to

you, the Tories say the Labour Party is in chaos, three weeks from the

election, there is nothing graver than defence policy, we do not know

if there will be first use of nuclear weapons and if Britain could

come to the end -- aid of another Nato country. We are fully signed up

to all of our Nato commitments and that means that if the threat was of

that nature, we would put in that military force and we support the

enhanced progress that is in Estonia already. Thank you.

It's 25 years since a young mother, Rachell Nickell, was stabbed

repeatedly and killed on Wimbledon Common in London.

What made the murder even more shocking was that it was witnessed

That put him in potential danger from the killer

The combination of the need to protect Alex's identity

and the intense, shocking media intrusion led his father, Andre,

to take him to rural France and then to Spain to start a new life.

Now, Alex Hanscombe has written a book which contains

extraordinarily vivid detail of that day and tells the traumatic

But most of all, Letting Go: A True Story of Murder,

Loss and Survivial is a tribute to his mother, Rachel.

Waving goodbye to my father as he drove off in his

I remember walking hand-in-hand with my mother

And then, as we ventured deeper into the trees, there was a section

All of a sudden, we both sensed that there was something in the air

so we both turned our heads to the right quickly

and all of a sudden we saw this man lunging forward with a black bag

In a matter of seconds, I was grabbed, thrown to the floor,

my face dragged across the mud, and seconds later my mother

And then I saw him disappear as I was getting myself up

from the floor, still, because it all happened so quickly.

And then he just disappeared into the distance,

And I stood over my mother and I said, Mummy, please get up.

So I was thinking, why doesn't she move?

And then I said it again, Mummy, please get up.

And then it hit me right at that moment.

I understood, I made that connection that she was gone

You feel that very physically in your heart.

For me, more than anything that we may have done together,

what she looked like, what she smelt like, any of these

things is the feeling of being loved and of loving in return.

That is something that will always be with me.

And regardless of me losing her under these circumstances

at such a young age, I have always felt so privileged

compared to so many others, who have never had that experience

of being loved and of loving in return.

How did your father explain your mother's death to you?

The fact that I was there, I already understood it all in my mind.

There wasn't much for my father to say.

But even so, when he came to collect me at the hospital,

as he held me in his arms, he said, your mother is gone

But we are going to continue on together.

One of the most intense moments, when you went to the common,

supposedly privately, with your father, and by this stage

Yes, all the reporters that were on the other side of the fence

So they all came jumping over the fence.

My father had to cover my face with a baseball cap.

We had to run off as we were jostled from both sides and the detectives

tried to stop them from coming and when we reached the spot,

he put me on the ground and we left the rose on the spot.

And for several minutes I stood watching my father

Meanwhile, my eyes were dry and I was just standing

Why do you think the press were so desperate to get you?

The archetype of a young child with his mother and him

being there while his mother was attacked and witnessing

all of that, I think there were so many elements that

The press is a business, we like to think the press as some

But the press is a private-run business with their own agenda.

That would serve them as well as selling newspapers.

So then your father, out of the blue, gets a call to say

You and me would think it is hard enough to get away with one serious

crime yet this person got away with over 100 attacks

on over 80 women before he was finally apprehended.

Had they been more efficient before, your mother would not be dead

and I wonder what you feel about the police's behaviour?

What I feel about the police is everyone is going to make mistakes.

That is an accepted fact, that is just nature.

But when you have a system where people aren't obliged to be

accountable to take responsibility for their actions,

that is when you create dark corridors and you attract a certain

person to that position, which is more prone to incompetence,

Because now what we have is the principal of because the police

are well-intentioned, they shouldn't be held accountable.

In the book you have made it clear that you forgive Robert Napper.

Once you have been through a difficult situation,

it makes no sense to keep feeling pain, feeling discomfort every time

So without condoning that person's actions,

that person's behaviour, you forgive that person for yourself

so you can let go of that negative baggage that you accumulate

Do you think she would think you had turned out well?

I know that she knows that I have turned out well.

Alex Hanscombe, thank you very much indeed.

It wouldn't be a general election campaign without a few

Reporters dressed as chickens pursuing party leaders,

distinguished correspondents playing cards and eating curry

We do things rather differently here on Newsnight,

with our blackboards and uplifting graphs.

Tonight, we unveil our latest Reithian feature,

which basically involves sending an old double-decker bus to parts

of the country that never see a real battlebus,

or indeed much of the campaign at all.

What's worse, the unfortunate souls of these under-covered seats,

who are normally spared politics, also had to put up

Go out and bring us back a complete breakdown.

And that's just what we did with a 1966 Routemaster double-decker.

She's already got more than 2 million miles on the clock.

We're rolling this baby into some of the safest or most overlooked

Ones that rarely get a visit from the party leaders

It's a special feature we're calling "Battle Busted".

We're bringing the Newsnight bus to the rolling constituency

It is one of the most rural and isolated parts of the country.

It used to be a safe Liberal stronghold but the Conservatives

have held it since 2010, and they're expected to retain it.

It's the only seat in Wales that Labour has never won.

I'm on a creaking old vehicle that we're using to explore

But enough about the programme, what do you think of my bus?

I was about to tick you off for rocking the old crate around,

but now that it's you, who better to show me around this

These streets can tell a few stories.

When he was a Lib Dem MP here, Lembit Opik lived in the fast lane.

Dating a weather girl and then a pop star.

He was seldom out of the limelight, but perhaps he attracted too many

headlines for the locals, because he lost in 2010.

Tell us a bit about it, for people who have not been lucky

enough to see this lovely green part of the Earth.

It is a huge constituency, about 70 miles by 70 miles.

Very few people here, more sheep than people,

And do you think that your former constituents will be

excited to see our bus with its associations,

I suppose inevitably, with the metropolis down here?

Some constituents will look at it and hope that this means there's

finally a robust service from Llanidloes up to Caersws.

We have a bit of time, we could take a few.

You will need a lot of time and you could probably

But in the majority, they are a wily local population.

They will look at this London bus and just assume

We asked people in the market town of Newtown whether they suffered

Well, we don't see an awful lot, that is very true around here.

Yes, you feel a little bit left out of things.

There isn't much election fever here on the face of it

and we wondered if people felt they missed out?

I'm not sure whether people are feeling they are missing out.

I think people may be feeling that in the middle of Wales,

Do you regret that they don't tend to come and see

I'm interested in politics, I have been watching television

and all that sort of stuff and I never would expect them

It was time to get back on the bus and resume a job very much

I once spent an entire election campaign in a motorway service

But this time, my billet was out in the fresh air of Montgomeryshire.

People here vote as they have done for generations.

These are young farmers learning to judge livestock.

I place the Suffolk ewes in the following order.

Before they are judged, in turn, by their elders.

There is no lack of appreciation for good speech-making here.

As soon as I am 18 I have got the chance to vote and I should

We have got our Newsnight double-decker bus.

If you heard that Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn was coming to town

tomorrow, would you turn out to hear them?

I wouldn't turn out to hear them, maybe get a selfie

Join us again when we bring all the fun of the campaign

to parts of the country that the election doesn't reach.

That's all we have time for, have a good weekend.