Manchester Attack Newsnight


Manchester Attack

The latest from Manchester and London, with Emily Maitlis and Evan Davis, as the prime minister says another attack could be imminent.


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Images that that have become depressingly familiar.

:00:22.:00:23.

But this time with a terrible twist - a bomber with

:00:24.:00:26.

Good evening from Albert Square in Manchester.

:00:27.:00:31.

In the last hour the terror alert has been raised to critical.

:00:32.:00:37.

Is it a sign of worse things to come?

:00:38.:00:41.

This means that their assessment is not only that an attack remains

:00:42.:00:46.

highly likely but that a further attack may be imminent.

:00:47.:00:50.

Thousands gathered tonight to remember the victims

:00:51.:00:52.

This is a city that's determined not to be divided

:00:53.:00:55.

by what took place half a mile from here at the Manchester Arena.

:00:56.:00:58.

But there's a huge amount of anger too.

:00:59.:01:00.

I feel so much for the parents who have gone through what they have

:01:01.:01:04.

That was not a military target, that's not even a

:01:05.:01:07.

government target, that was just kids.

:01:08.:01:13.

Whenever you've got to say, they were children.

:01:14.:01:15.

Half of them probably don't even know where Raqqa

:01:16.:01:17.

We're here with a survivor and one of the people

:01:18.:01:21.

who know this city best, its former mayor.

:01:22.:01:23.

How will this city - and the country, react?

:01:24.:01:25.

So many questions arise out of these atrocities; not least,

:01:26.:01:29.

how we should respond to these attacks.

:01:30.:01:31.

And strike the right balance between liberty and security?

:01:32.:01:34.

I would anyway be very surprised indeed to find that this

:01:35.:01:36.

In fact the idea of a lone wolf, it is an attractive concept,

:01:37.:01:42.

an attractive label, but it is very, very rare

:01:43.:01:44.

We'll ask if it's possible to create a society,

:01:45.:01:48.

safer and more resilient in the face of these increasingly

:01:49.:01:50.

We'll be with Emily in Manchester this evening,

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But we start here, as it was from Downing Street

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at quarter to ten tonight, that the Prime Minister made

:02:11.:02:13.

She said the investigations in Manchester raised the possibility

:02:14.:02:18.

that there are those who were working with last night's

:02:19.:02:23.

bomber who are at large; and that the terror threat needs

:02:24.:02:25.

to be raised because another attack may be imminent.

:02:26.:02:28.

The threat level is, I should say, set by an independent body.

:02:29.:02:32.

She also proposed elevated security measures.

:02:33.:02:39.

Armed police officers responsible for duties like guarding key sites

:02:40.:02:41.

will be replaced by members of the Armed Forces,

:02:42.:02:45.

which will allow the police to significantly increase the number

:02:46.:02:48.

of armed officers on patrol in key locations.

:02:49.:02:53.

You might also see military personnel deployed at certain

:02:54.:02:57.

events, such as concerts and sports matches, helping the police

:02:58.:02:59.

In all circumstances, members of the Armed Forces

:03:00.:03:05.

who are deployed in this way will be under the command

:03:06.:03:07.

That was Theresa May at about quarter to ten, I am joined by Mark

:03:08.:03:24.

Urban, the threat level is critical, is that the first time? It has been

:03:25.:03:31.

done twice before for short periods in 2006 and 2007. It is not

:03:32.:03:36.

unprecedented. But it suggests our belief amongst intelligence experts

:03:37.:03:39.

are further attack could be imminent. Talk us through the logic

:03:40.:03:46.

which will have led to this view? If you look at the possibility that a

:03:47.:03:52.

person in their early 20s as this bomber was could put together

:03:53.:03:56.

something of this nature that could kill so many people, have such

:03:57.:04:01.

devastating effect, it's not too likely that one individual would

:04:02.:04:06.

have two master skills of perhaps making home-made explosives,

:04:07.:04:09.

constructing the bomb and finding the target, motivating themselves to

:04:10.:04:13.

take their own life, all of these things. Because of all the of

:04:14.:04:18.

enquiry which are being actively looked into by the police, there is

:04:19.:04:23.

a belief there could be a wider group of people around them. If you

:04:24.:04:26.

come to the conclusion that this person may not have been able to

:04:27.:04:30.

make the bomb you ask who did make it and might they be prepared to

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make and deploy others in the coming days? Then you will see the reason

:04:37.:04:39.

why intelligence and security experts might error on the side of

:04:40.:04:44.

caution and raised the threat level. Troops at public events and things

:04:45.:04:50.

like that under the command of police, that is what we had at the

:04:51.:04:55.

Olympics? It has been seen once or twice before, the procedure that

:04:56.:05:01.

this will happen under, Operation Tempora, it was put in place a

:05:02.:05:07.

couple of years ago as a result of a couple of things, ever since Mumbai

:05:08.:05:12.

but also the events in Paris and Brussels, that if there was a major

:05:13.:05:15.

attack involving firearms on the streets of Britain there could be

:05:16.:05:19.

places with particular vulnerabilities. My understanding

:05:20.:05:23.

has always been they are not especially worried about London,

:05:24.:05:26.

where there are lots of armed police. But you go to some of our

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big cities outside London, Manchester, Birmingham, Newcastle,

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Bristol, other cities where the firearms units might be small in

:05:36.:05:40.

part due to cuts in the police, the fuelling a couple of years ago was

:05:41.:05:44.

they had to be worked out contingency plans to backfill the

:05:45.:05:48.

police with Army troops which is what has been talked about now.

:05:49.:05:53.

Inevitably there are people on social media, we are only 45 minutes

:05:54.:05:58.

on from the announcement saying it is an overreaction and playing

:05:59.:06:01.

politics, what other checks and balances in the system that if you

:06:02.:06:07.

like it did the Prime Minister's hand? It is headed by a senior

:06:08.:06:11.

intelligence officer, the Prime Minister emphasising this was a

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result as a request from the police, that is very much the complexion

:06:17.:06:20.

being put in by Downing Street. A lot of people are concerned, troops

:06:21.:06:25.

on the street, is Theresa May milking the situation? Some people

:06:26.:06:28.

are saying that tonight on the Internet. Exploiting it. This comes

:06:29.:06:34.

down to a judgment by security professionals and as a former Home

:06:35.:06:37.

Secretary she is very comfortable dealing with them. We will hear your

:06:38.:06:39.

report later. All of this comes after

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last night's bombing - and a day of sadness,

:06:43.:06:44.

some anger and a great It's hard to imagine a softer

:06:45.:06:47.

target than the audience The Manchester Arena is not

:06:48.:06:53.

a military building, There was no confusion

:06:54.:06:57.

in the killer's mind. He came here exactly 24 hours

:06:58.:07:01.

ago to kill children and teenagers: those celebrating

:07:02.:07:07.

the culture that makes An eight year old girl

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is amongst the dead. The trauma for hundreds

:07:10.:07:14.

of others is incalculable. Tonight, we look at how an event

:07:15.:07:22.

like this changes us, what we know of terror in Manchester

:07:23.:07:26.

and of the suspect himself. But we begin right here

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in the city itself. Music and Manchester, are deep in

:07:30.:07:49.

each other's brains. This city welcomed buskers and big-name stars

:07:50.:07:53.

with equal warmth. A place that sings it self expression. A city

:07:54.:07:56.

that stops to listen when nothing else makes much sense. Manchester's

:07:57.:08:02.

concerts like the one here last night are something of a rite of

:08:03.:08:06.

passage. Every teenager, every kid falling in love with music for the

:08:07.:08:11.

first time. Tasting what it means to leave their hang-ups and appearance

:08:12.:08:15.

at the door. Enter that sublime Brave New World. Until that Brave

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New World cracks open. Oh my God! What's going on? A suicide bomber

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too cowardly to choose anything but the most vulnerable targets

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detonated himself in the arena foyer. A man came here to kill

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children while their parents were temporarily out of reach. Amongst

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the victims just eight years old, Georgina Callander a student of 18

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and 26 your old man, John Atkinson. Children screaming from their

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parents, parents desperate to hear those voices. This is my daughter

:09:03.:09:08.

Olivia, I have not seen her since 5pm last night. Charlotte has

:09:09.:09:12.

robustly been appealing for information throughout the day. Let

:09:13.:09:17.

someone know if you think it might be her, please, I just want her

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home. I want her back in my arms. Paula Robinson was one of those who

:09:24.:09:29.

stopped to help. We were in the Victoria station which is directly

:09:30.:09:32.

outside the arena and this big explosion just went off. Loads of

:09:33.:09:37.

people coming out, but there was huge amounts of teenagers, young

:09:38.:09:42.

children, two caught our eye because they were seeing where is my dad,

:09:43.:09:48.

get my dad. We just got hold of those children, told them we would

:09:49.:09:51.

take them away and that there are dad could not pick them up. She put

:09:52.:09:55.

her number on Facebook to let parents know she was with

:09:56.:09:59.

unaccompanied children. She was overwhelmed with what happened next.

:10:00.:10:04.

People have been ringing me and sending me pictures of their

:10:05.:10:09.

children. I have had hundreds of hysterical parents wanting to know

:10:10.:10:12.

if their children are OK and I have tried to put it out there that I

:10:13.:10:17.

just don't know, I just don't know. The chaos of yesterday has shipped

:10:18.:10:21.

itself into a narrative of sorts. We know an explosion hit the foyer at

:10:22.:10:27.

10:30pm shortly after a sold-out Ariana Grande concert finished.

:10:28.:10:32.

Police believe the attacker detonated an improvised explosive

:10:33.:10:40.

device and died at the scene. So far we know at least 22 were killed in

:10:41.:10:43.

the attack and a further 59 victims including 12 age under 16 were taken

:10:44.:10:45.

to eight hospitals in the area. Police raided a number of addresses

:10:46.:10:50.

in the wider Manchester area. They named a 22-year-old man of Libyan

:10:51.:10:57.

origin board here as a suspect. And by lunchtime they were having to

:10:58.:11:03.

turn people away, for now. Ian has turned up to give blood for the

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first time in his life. Devastating. You see these things in the news and

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you think one day it's going to be here but when it happens and it's

:11:15.:11:18.

children, we can react in a lot of ways, we can react in anger or we

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can react by doing why did I stay in the city for 17 years, this city is

:11:24.:11:28.

a community. He tells me he used to be a bar and inside the arena. It

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was not a military target, not a government target, it was just kids.

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What ever you had to say about it they were just children. Half of

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them probably don't know where Raqqa is or Syria is. It's children at a

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pop concert. It inhumane. I don't know how else to describe it. This

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evening in bright sunshine it feels a whole city has come out to mark

:11:55.:12:01.

the moment. To remember the victims, many of them children. Sprayers,

:12:02.:12:05.

talking of peace and forgiveness, for a moment everyone seems to know

:12:06.:12:12.

what to do. But what happens when the crowds are gone, the hashtag

:12:13.:12:16.

forgotten and the grieving are left alone with their unbearable grief?

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Do not forget this was an attack on kids just trying to grow up and on

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parents trying to do their best to let them. On an ordinarily Monday

:12:26.:12:26.

night in Manchester. Joe Flinders was one of those at the

:12:27.:12:45.

arena last night. Tony Lloyd was the city 's Police and Crime

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Commissioner who stepped down just two weeks ago and they join me here,

:12:49.:12:52.

Joe I know you have not been to bed since last night, I am wondering

:12:53.:12:57.

what you did differently, what you went through last night? From my

:12:58.:13:03.

perspective, as I have said, we normally sit in the block that was

:13:04.:13:07.

affected. For whatever reason the tickets we got this time happened to

:13:08.:13:11.

be on the other side, stage left. The epicentre of the blast came from

:13:12.:13:16.

the terminus between Victoria and the arena which nine times out of

:13:17.:13:19.

ten is the only exit I know so it's the only exit I use. For what ever

:13:20.:13:25.

reason we did not use that except and as we left our seats and went

:13:26.:13:29.

into the corridors, everybody was just about grabbing the corridors,

:13:30.:13:34.

that is where we heard and felt the blast. We did not see smoke from our

:13:35.:13:39.

side. There was a second of confusion for everybody but then

:13:40.:13:43.

there was panic, frantic children being dragged by hysterical parents.

:13:44.:13:47.

It was distressing to see parents upset and it was upsetting the

:13:48.:13:52.

children even more. Spilling down the exits we went through. Then one

:13:53.:13:57.

of the most haunting things were seeing the parents picking people up

:13:58.:14:02.

outside, flooding back into the building, going against the crowd to

:14:03.:14:06.

get into their children that they could not see because from their

:14:07.:14:09.

perspective they heard a massive bang and then panicked crowds

:14:10.:14:13.

heading out. So still a bit numb towards it all to be honest. What

:14:14.:14:18.

did you do when you saw those things? First of all we hoped it

:14:19.:14:23.

might have been best case scenario, pyrotechnics or helium cylinder

:14:24.:14:25.

because there were lots of balloons as part of the show. I did not panic

:14:26.:14:30.

until we got onto the street and could see how distressed everyone

:14:31.:14:36.

was. You could hear people's phone calls saying they saw blood and

:14:37.:14:39.

smoke. But we did not see any of that from the entrance we left from.

:14:40.:14:42.

We just tried to get away as quick as we could as we were told to do.

:14:43.:14:49.

And mindless replaying overall why you were not sitting on the seats

:14:50.:14:56.

you normally hat. So many times have I been in that exact plays queueing

:14:57.:15:01.

up to be first at the barriers. I have been going to that building my

:15:02.:15:05.

whole life. For something to happen this close to home, I cannot fathom

:15:06.:15:10.

why someone would target music lovers and children. You do not

:15:11.:15:13.

think about these things happening so close to home. I cannot really

:15:14.:15:20.

digestive. I am quite numb and really tired. Entirely

:15:21.:15:23.

understandable. Thank you for staying up with us. Tony Lloyd, you

:15:24.:15:29.

have heard that the terror alert has been raised, I am wondering as a

:15:30.:15:33.

former police and crime commissioner, what that is now

:15:34.:15:38.

sparking off in your head? I think what it means is that our security

:15:39.:15:43.

services cannot rule out the fact that there could be further threat,

:15:44.:15:48.

that this may not have been a lone act, there is the potential for

:15:49.:15:54.

follow-up. In a city like this, making sure that this experience

:15:55.:15:59.

does not happen again has to be the highest ambition and politicians

:16:00.:16:02.

have to act on the advice of the police and the intelligence

:16:03.:16:06.

services. To do otherwise would be irresponsible. We would all welcome

:16:07.:16:12.

it. I write up thinking we have not been at critical level for a decade?

:16:13.:16:18.

Yes. Since the attack on Glasgow airport and others. It shows the

:16:19.:16:23.

changing nature. We do have to take this seriously. In terms of keeping

:16:24.:16:30.

people safe. The really strong message here tonight in Manchester,

:16:31.:16:37.

was how much people reject, people from all backgrounds, reject these

:16:38.:16:41.

acts of evil by individually crazed people. They are on their own and we

:16:42.:16:46.

stand together. I know you have been here before, I have certainly been

:16:47.:16:50.

here before at these kinds of events and we know that the perpetrators

:16:51.:16:55.

are evil and barbaric and all the rest, but at some stage, you have to

:16:56.:17:00.

say, this is not getting any better. We are living permanently with the

:17:01.:17:04.

kind of terror that means we even know what to do, we know how to

:17:05.:17:08.

behave at vigils, we know when to colour up the Eiffel Tower, that

:17:09.:17:13.

cannot be sustainable, Cabinet? It is not the world any of us want. My

:17:14.:17:20.

answer to that is to say that the things we have learned, of how we do

:17:21.:17:25.

work together, building solidarity in our society is of the utmost

:17:26.:17:30.

importance. It is not just a phraseology that we invented. We

:17:31.:17:36.

stand together. We have got to be together across our many different

:17:37.:17:39.

rainbow communities, that makes up this country of ours. Were you at

:17:40.:17:44.

the vigil? Does it feel like a city that is trying to come together? I

:17:45.:17:49.

was not there. I was comforting my mother. Because from her

:17:50.:17:54.

perspective, she got a phone call from me when it happened, before she

:17:55.:17:58.

heard, because they did not want to have that moment of wondering was I

:17:59.:18:02.

OK. She was really distressed so I came home from work because she

:18:03.:18:06.

needed support. I could have done with the support from her as well.

:18:07.:18:10.

The support from Manchester that I have seen, because my social

:18:11.:18:14.

channels are filled with people from Manchester because I am from here,

:18:15.:18:18.

on a personal level it has touched so many people way everyone got

:18:19.:18:25.

involved. The blood bank, the people offering free lives, taxi drivers,

:18:26.:18:28.

accommodation, children are being gathered in local hotels, it was the

:18:29.:18:34.

best thing we can take from all of this, is how we acted together.

:18:35.:18:35.

Thank you. More from Manchester

:18:36.:18:38.

later in the programme - How do we help them make any sense

:18:39.:18:41.

of what they are going through? Let's reflect on how

:18:42.:18:53.

we should respond to these kinds of atrocities,

:18:54.:18:55.

and the deadly recurrence of them. Since the Charlie Hebdo attacks

:18:56.:18:57.

in Paris kicked off this latest wave of killings,

:18:58.:19:00.

which is not even two and a half years ago now,

:19:01.:19:02.

316 people have been killed across western Europe

:19:03.:19:05.

in violence that might be France, Denmark, Sweden,

:19:06.:19:07.

Belgium, Germany and Britain The selection of iconic targets has

:19:08.:19:13.

somehow brought the sense of threat And in Manchester, we now have

:19:14.:19:18.

twenty thousand or so people, caught up in the trauma of a bomb -

:19:19.:19:24.

running from the danger. Well, we obviously don't

:19:25.:19:29.

want to become inured to violence around us,

:19:30.:19:31.

but we do want to be We also want to preserve our

:19:32.:19:34.

liberties, but also our security. We'll discuss these

:19:35.:19:39.

dilemmas shortly. But first, what we know

:19:40.:19:41.

about the threat? How significant is it that

:19:42.:19:43.

Salman Abedi had succeeded When police raided an address in

:19:44.:20:01.

fallow field they were prepared to discover a bomb factory. They knew

:20:02.:20:06.

that Salman Abedi, the bombing suspect had lived here and we have

:20:07.:20:08.

learned were proceeding on the assumption that he had used

:20:09.:20:13.

home-made explosives and indeed, one officer was seen emerging from the

:20:14.:20:17.

property with this. For the police, it is vital to learn how the worst

:20:18.:20:23.

attack for 12 years was carried out. Can you move back down please? Thank

:20:24.:20:30.

you very much. Key to the investigation is the explosives and

:20:31.:20:38.

the construction of the bomb itself. In 7/7 and Paris and Brussels the

:20:39.:20:44.

tracks, hydrogen peroxide explosives were used. The principles of making

:20:45.:20:48.

it are easily understood and have been propagated by Al-Qaeda and the

:20:49.:20:52.

Islamic State group. It is easy to do wrong. In the 21 slash seven

:20:53.:20:58.

attacks, and the bombs did not go off properly and on other occasions

:20:59.:21:03.

they have gone off prematurely. The chemistry and weaponisation the

:21:04.:21:06.

explosives with shrapnel takes skill is unlikely to have been possessed

:21:07.:21:12.

by Abedi. I would be very surprised indeed to find that this was just

:21:13.:21:18.

one person. In fact, the idea of a lone wolf, it is an attractive

:21:19.:21:22.

concept, an attractive label but it is very rare that it actually

:21:23.:21:25.

happens, that someone is operating purely on their own. It is much more

:21:26.:21:31.

common for there to be a cell and for that sell to be connected to a

:21:32.:21:41.

broader organisation. So the questions multiply about

:21:42.:21:44.

accomplices. Did Abedi or someone else make the bomb and find the

:21:45.:21:49.

target? Who radicalised him? If there is a wider circle, could more

:21:50.:21:54.

attacks be mounted? Certainly in this case, the level of expertise is

:21:55.:22:00.

in building an explosive device capable of killing the number of

:22:01.:22:03.

people it has, collecting materials in order to do that in the first

:22:04.:22:08.

place, completely undetected by the police and the security services and

:22:09.:22:11.

then being able to transport from one place to another, bearing in

:22:12.:22:16.

mind they can be quite volatile, these home built weapons and then

:22:17.:22:20.

being able to detonate it at will at the place of your choosing. There is

:22:21.:22:26.

a level of expertise that is not acquired by the internet or by

:22:27.:22:30.

sitting in your bedroom. Enquiries by Newsnight suggest that Abedi's

:22:31.:22:35.

father and brother were linked to the Didsbury Islamic centre mass

:22:36.:22:39.

that was taken over several years ago by sympathisers of the Libyan

:22:40.:22:44.

Islamic fighters group, and Al-Qaeda affiliate. For Gaddafi fell, the

:22:45.:22:49.

group's leadership came to terms with the Libyan government and

:22:50.:22:52.

agreed they would stop fighting and return to being released from

:22:53.:22:58.

prison. The group really dissipated but that did not mean to say that

:22:59.:23:02.

the members gave up their ideas and gave up the radicalisation and I am

:23:03.:23:05.

sure that some of them will have gone towards Iraq and Syria were

:23:06.:23:12.

some may have joined some other groups and some may have joined the

:23:13.:23:17.

Islamic State. I news agency affiliated to the Islamic State has

:23:18.:23:21.

claimed responsibility for the Manchester attack, but it is not

:23:22.:23:24.

clear yet whether they have done this opportunistically or are behind

:23:25.:23:29.

and more complex conspiracy. For now, there are multiple lines of

:23:30.:23:33.

enquiry concerning the associates of the bomber and how someone was able

:23:34.:23:39.

to make such a lethal contraption. In time though, there will be

:23:40.:23:42.

broader questions asked, such as how all the procedures and mechanisms

:23:43.:23:47.

put in place after the 2005 London attacks were beaten. The police say

:23:48.:23:54.

that since 2013, they have broken up more than a dozen terrorist plots in

:23:55.:23:58.

the UK, but on this occasion, they did not succeed.

:23:59.:24:02.

Well, with me in the studio is Shami Chakrabarti,

:24:03.:24:04.

But who is actually not here in that capacity -

:24:05.:24:08.

this is not a day for political points.

:24:09.:24:10.

Shami was for 13 years until last year, the director of Liberty,

:24:11.:24:13.

Good evening to you. The great question that emerges on days like

:24:14.:24:21.

this is how we got the balance between liberties and security

:24:22.:24:28.

right? There is a sweeping question with so many questions within it but

:24:29.:24:33.

at the heart of all of this is probably a word that Tony Lloyd used

:24:34.:24:38.

briefly in the interview with Emily which was this idea of solidarity,

:24:39.:24:42.

this idea of a community trying to stay calm and United, under the kind

:24:43.:24:50.

of provocation that you see from this kind of terrorism which is of

:24:51.:24:55.

course designed to provoke, designed to divide, designed to turn people

:24:56.:24:59.

against each other and to have people living in fear. Ironically,

:25:00.:25:05.

to shut down what Theresa May call today our liberal pluralist society.

:25:06.:25:14.

It is certainly the kind of day for calm, a certain pause for thought

:25:15.:25:17.

and unity and then of course for resources. We have heard, we hear

:25:18.:25:22.

about the threat has been raised and the resources that are to be

:25:23.:25:29.

deployed. I have not heard anything as yet that suggests a knee jerk to

:25:30.:25:36.

bring in other powers. It would not worry you that there is a rush to

:25:37.:25:40.

judgment. On occasions like this particularly where children are

:25:41.:25:43.

involved, people will want to tilt the balance away from liberty and

:25:44.:25:47.

say screw liberty, it is about getting these people. There was not

:25:48.:25:51.

any liberty in that concert Hall last night for those children. Let

:25:52.:25:58.

us be clear. Human rights include the right to protection of precious

:25:59.:26:04.

life, however, how best to do that and probably not, we have learned,

:26:05.:26:11.

but -- by knee jerk that do not unite us. The sun is reporting that

:26:12.:26:18.

the government is about to ask Parliament to approve technical

:26:19.:26:23.

capability notices which will force internet companies to basically

:26:24.:26:27.

de-encrypt or handover" to that data, I do not know the details, is

:26:28.:26:33.

this the kind of thing that is going too far? I do not know what the Sun

:26:34.:26:38.

is reporting, but there is no Parliament at the moment, this is

:26:39.:26:41.

one of the challenges of this rather extraordinary moment. There is no

:26:42.:26:46.

Parliament. We have got this terrorist atrocity and we have got

:26:47.:26:50.

no Parliament. However, there is still checks and balances and I have

:26:51.:26:54.

colleagues who are privy counsellors and I know that Theresa May has

:26:55.:26:57.

spoken to the Leader of the Opposition and will no doubt do so

:26:58.:27:00.

again. I have other colleagues like Diane Abbott who is a privy

:27:01.:27:05.

Counsellor again, there is still the possibility of for discussion and

:27:06.:27:09.

scrutiny in a bipartisan way in these challenging times. Are you

:27:10.:27:14.

satisfied with the system, we have the independent body who recommend

:27:15.:27:17.

the threat level, are you satisfied, if you like, with the broad

:27:18.:27:23.

independence of that cyst, that it is not subject to politicisation?

:27:24.:27:29.

What I would say on a night like this one is that this is not the

:27:30.:27:34.

moment for conspiracy theories. If anyone is feeling panicked about the

:27:35.:27:39.

timing of this, I would urge them to be calm and United. I have

:27:40.:27:46.

colleagues who are great civil libertarians and human rights folk

:27:47.:27:49.

and privy counsellors and I think that it is possible to take this

:27:50.:27:54.

forward in a bipartisan way. You broadly support then the raising of

:27:55.:27:58.

the threat level? I am not a privy Counsellor and I have not seen the

:27:59.:28:01.

intelligence but nor am I going to take a knee jerk in the other

:28:02.:28:07.

direction and to be a conspiracy theorist, I do not think that would

:28:08.:28:10.

be good for anyone this evening. Thank you very much.

:28:11.:28:12.

Let me turn to Shaista Gohir who chairs the Muslim

:28:13.:28:15.

And Professor Michael Clarke - specialist adviser to

:28:16.:28:17.

the Joint National Committee on Security Strategy

:28:18.:28:19.

and former Director General of Royal United Services Institute.

:28:20.:28:36.

Can I start with Hugh? She hinted at us not needing extra powers but

:28:37.:28:45.

potentially need extra resources, is that where the security services

:28:46.:28:49.

would be when it comes to dealing with this track?

:28:50.:28:56.

We have plenty of counterterrorism law in this country, but the police

:28:57.:29:02.

need more reason horses and I think that is what this will hinge on. We

:29:03.:29:08.

don't need more powers but we need the powers that do exist more across

:29:09.:29:13.

the board. The police have been suffering cuts year after year,

:29:14.:29:21.

maybe too far? Or is it a matter of redeploying resources? That is where

:29:22.:29:24.

the knock on problem is, they met in London take the lead but if you look

:29:25.:29:30.

at other constabularies in other big cities which may now be vulnerable,

:29:31.:29:34.

they will tell you that their counter terrorism squads are too

:29:35.:29:41.

small, and that is where the knock on effect arises. If there are more

:29:42.:29:47.

police there could be more firearms officers but if this threat level of

:29:48.:29:50.

critical means troops will turn out that will release more police to do

:29:51.:29:57.

the firearms related task. The technical capability notices or

:29:58.:30:00.

whatever the government are looking at to get more data, is that the

:30:01.:30:07.

missing link in the powers they have? They will have a problem

:30:08.:30:11.

because the jurisdiction is a big issue, the government have worried

:30:12.:30:15.

about it for a long time. The companies are not British so there

:30:16.:30:19.

is only a sort of certain amount of their operation they could demand

:30:20.:30:24.

control over. Shaista Gohir let me turn to you, you are concerned to

:30:25.:30:28.

some extent with preventing these things, using that word because we

:30:29.:30:32.

have a prevent programme which tries to do it. From the perspective of

:30:33.:30:36.

Muslim Women's Network UK needs to change, either in the rest of

:30:37.:30:46.

society or in the Muslim community? I would like to pay sincere

:30:47.:30:53.

condolences to the friends and families of the victims,

:30:54.:30:56.

particularly parents who have lost their children. It's unthinkable to

:30:57.:31:01.

lose your children. In terms of what can be done, we talk about how do

:31:02.:31:07.

challenge and the threat of ices and that is something the police and

:31:08.:31:09.

government are working on but there is more that can be done -- the

:31:10.:31:22.

threat of IS. This attack has been so horrific that everybody, no

:31:23.:31:25.

matter what your background is has condemned this, it's an attack on

:31:26.:31:32.

children and an attack on all of us, but although the Muslim community by

:31:33.:31:37.

and large is really shaken with this and is condemning it unfortunately

:31:38.:31:43.

there are a small cohort of people, individuals, organisations, I will

:31:44.:31:46.

not name them on here, but they are very active in terms of the will not

:31:47.:31:54.

want Muslims to work with the government... Sorry to interrupt,

:31:55.:31:59.

would be recognise themselves as supporters of Isis or would be think

:32:00.:32:05.

of themselves as opposed? But not opposed in the right way? I will

:32:06.:32:10.

describe what they are and then I think we can decide whose side on

:32:11.:32:15.

because they are not on our side and I would put them on the side of

:32:16.:32:19.

extremists because these people first of all I have noticed when

:32:20.:32:24.

there are terror attacks do not condemn them and at first I thought

:32:25.:32:28.

let me give them the benefit of the doubt, maybe it is because we have

:32:29.:32:32.

so many and they are abroad, maybe they do not want to condemn each and

:32:33.:32:37.

everyone but this one you have to be heartless not to condemn. This was

:32:38.:32:41.

on children, an attack on our own home country and yet there has been

:32:42.:32:46.

silence. They have very quickly jumped on the bandwagon of their is

:32:47.:32:51.

going to be a backlash on Muslims that has already started. We need to

:32:52.:32:56.

condemn that, yes, but it's a conversation we need to be having in

:32:57.:33:00.

coming days. Today our focus should be on the victims and their

:33:01.:33:04.

families. The same people will criticise the government's strategy

:33:05.:33:11.

of prevent and that is fine. People who work with government like

:33:12.:33:13.

ourselves will raise concerns and say we need to do better because

:33:14.:33:17.

innocent people get caught up in this. Let me finish my point, it's

:33:18.:33:21.

really important, the same people will demonise and target people and

:33:22.:33:28.

vilify people who want to work with government to defeat and challenge

:33:29.:33:34.

extremists. We are called Muslim apologists. By condemning terrorism

:33:35.:33:38.

it is not being an apologist, it's about being a human being. Thank you

:33:39.:33:44.

very much, that point is very well made. I want to throw last one to

:33:45.:33:49.

you Michael Clarke about security, prevention of these kind of

:33:50.:33:56.

incidents. Can armed troops, armed police, if someone walks in with a

:33:57.:34:01.

bomb, he walks in, when the exits are open so everyone is leaving so

:34:02.:34:05.

you don't have security, you could put security around the outside of

:34:06.:34:10.

the arena but then you will have people exiting the security zone to

:34:11.:34:16.

outside, what are we meant to make of the difficulty here? It's all

:34:17.:34:21.

risk calculation. You could extend the security perimeter around every

:34:22.:34:25.

event and then you have problems around the perimeter again. Armed

:34:26.:34:29.

police can provide reassurance and make sure an attack does not go very

:34:30.:34:34.

far which is what happened in Westminster. But ultimately if

:34:35.:34:37.

somebody wants to try something they will get the first blow in before

:34:38.:34:49.

anyone can react and unless we are going to live in some sort of East

:34:50.:34:52.

German state that will always be the case. It's a matter of the public

:34:53.:34:54.

being vigilant and accepting we live with the level of risk. That is what

:34:55.:34:57.

the security services have been telling us for the last 15 years.

:34:58.:35:00.

Thank you both very much. Back over to Emily in Manchester.

:35:01.:35:03.

Today the Children's Commissioner for England urged adults to find

:35:04.:35:05.

a way to tell our children what has happened.

:35:06.:35:07.

But how we do help them make sense of such terrible acts

:35:08.:35:10.

of violence particularly when it's their generation

:35:11.:35:12.

Just approaching eight o'clock on BBC radio Manchester. Their faces

:35:13.:35:31.

stay out from the missing appeals on social media. Olivia Campbell's mum

:35:32.:35:35.

has not heard from her since she went to the concert last night.

:35:36.:35:40.

Relatives desperately seeking Chloe Rutherford and Liam Curry. And

:35:41.:35:45.

Courtney Boyle, just 19, is also unaccounted for. In many case this

:35:46.:35:52.

was an attack on young people. As parents and children woke up to the

:35:53.:35:56.

news of what had happened many grappled with how to explain this

:35:57.:36:02.

assault on the young, to the young. Children go out and they go to a

:36:03.:36:06.

concerted and this is what happens. You go out as a family on a happy

:36:07.:36:13.

occasion and this is what happens. Outside Manchester's Kingswood

:36:14.:36:16.

primary school parents were still die jesting the horror. What was

:36:17.:36:22.

your reaction as a parent? I was scared, shocked, I was on the phone

:36:23.:36:26.

telling them to get home on time, things like that, really scared.

:36:27.:36:32.

Mortified as a parent, mortified. I mean... My eldest walk up, got out

:36:33.:36:40.

of bed and she saw, she is 13, she's got a phone and she sent me a

:36:41.:36:44.

message so she clearly knows and understands what is going on. The

:36:45.:36:49.

three younger ones don't know about it. But my heartfelt sympathies and

:36:50.:36:56.

I feel so much for the parents who have gone through what they have

:36:57.:37:02.

gone through today. The school flag has been lowered in sympathy. Many

:37:03.:37:07.

schools in the area and beyond will have decided an attack which shocked

:37:08.:37:10.

adults will also have had an impact on children. Kings road cancelled

:37:11.:37:16.

its full school assembly in favour of teachers talking to their

:37:17.:37:21.

individual classes. Some year groups had heard gossip about knives and

:37:22.:37:27.

guns and rampaging people. We had to deal with that, dealing with

:37:28.:37:31.

mistruths and correcting them sensibly. Other year groups,

:37:32.:37:38.

although your groups there was a mix of emotions, some children felt fear

:37:39.:37:42.

and negative emotions and other children felt different negative

:37:43.:37:47.

emotions such as anger. How'd you make children feel safe? We have not

:37:48.:37:51.

let them out at playtime today because we wondered what the risk

:37:52.:37:54.

was and we have locked all the gates throughout the school and senior

:37:55.:37:58.

leaders have patrolled outside the school today so it is physically

:37:59.:38:03.

safe. Helping the parents be assured so their children are safe in

:38:04.:38:08.

school. Then there is emotionally safe as well and safe to feel fear

:38:09.:38:11.

and what we do with that and I think we have a responsibility as a school

:38:12.:38:17.

to tackle that. This educational psychologist gave British schools

:38:18.:38:20.

advise in the wake of the Paris attacks and was hand again today.

:38:21.:38:28.

Before eight o'clock this morning I gave out e-mails to answer

:38:29.:38:34.

children's questions, give them the facts, do not engage in speculation

:38:35.:38:37.

but acknowledge it and talk about it. For one parent, picking up his

:38:38.:38:43.

daughter from the primaries go, talking is very necessary. Today his

:38:44.:38:46.

apartment block became central to the police investigation. There was

:38:47.:38:52.

a chord and setup, three building blocks have been surrounded by the

:38:53.:38:57.

police and security forces. Is that still the case? Up until this

:38:58.:39:01.

moment. They are making their enquiries about someone who has

:39:02.:39:04.

lived in the premises who has a connection with what happened in

:39:05.:39:08.

Manchester last night. How do you feel about that? Despicable if it is

:39:09.:39:14.

the right word. If it can be broadcasted. It really should not be

:39:15.:39:21.

done in England. The blocks here, parents living nearby said they felt

:39:22.:39:24.

the need to explain what has happened to their children. I think

:39:25.:39:28.

it is really important to be honest with your kids when they ask, do not

:39:29.:39:32.

overlook them with too much information because that could make

:39:33.:39:37.

them frightened about going out and just try and keep, if they want to,

:39:38.:39:42.

talk about it and listen to them if they are scared. The overwhelming

:39:43.:39:47.

response we found today to the indiscriminate violence was empathy.

:39:48.:39:50.

Parents deeply moved by the knowledge that they can still guard

:39:51.:39:53.

their children close when others cannot. I am joined by: Parry who

:39:54.:40:04.

lost his son in 1993 in an IRA attack. You are an extraordinary

:40:05.:40:09.

inspiration to any parent watching this tonight, because what you have

:40:10.:40:14.

done, you and your wife, is to really read channel that anger into

:40:15.:40:19.

something very positive. Yes, although I would say there was never

:40:20.:40:26.

any anger. I will not get into that. We channelled our energies into

:40:27.:40:30.

doing something meaningful in terms of keeping Tim's name alive in any

:40:31.:40:34.

way we did and Jonathan, the other little boy who died. We began with a

:40:35.:40:40.

3-way exchange programme between Bury Dublin and Warrington for young

:40:41.:40:45.

people and two years on having seen the results, we decided we wanted to

:40:46.:40:50.

scale up and the only way we could do that was to build our own

:40:51.:40:53.

premises in Warrington and over the next couple of years, I fund raise

:40:54.:40:58.

with a few significant political allies and we built the Peace Centre

:40:59.:41:03.

in 2000 and that where we do most of our work. When you saw what happened

:41:04.:41:07.

here last night, I am wondering that took you back to square one? More

:41:08.:41:13.

than any other terrorist outraged in the years that followed Warrington,

:41:14.:41:19.

this hit me and my wife and my daughter as well, she was very upset

:41:20.:41:26.

today, because it was children. It was children doing something

:41:27.:41:28.

perfectly normal for children, just having fun. You said Tim was on his

:41:29.:41:35.

way to buy football shorts. He was. That is all he was doing, buying

:41:36.:41:39.

some football shirts because he has saved a penalty the week before for

:41:40.:41:43.

the school team and he went out and never came home and 22 people have

:41:44.:41:48.

done the same here and many of them are children. It is horrifying that

:41:49.:41:54.

such young lives can be lost like that. I was looking at some of the

:41:55.:41:58.

photographs on the news earlier, the eight-year-old girl, what a

:41:59.:42:01.

beautiful little girl and how her parents are feeling now. I can

:42:02.:42:04.

imagine how they are feeling. I don't know if you are reaching out

:42:05.:42:10.

to them, what would you say to them or anyone going through that now? I

:42:11.:42:12.

don't know that anything could be said right now that would make a jot

:42:13.:42:18.

of difference because they will be so broken. And so heartbroken and

:42:19.:42:22.

devastated that I think they will probably be deaf to most things. I

:42:23.:42:26.

found in those early days and weeks that we operated on a basic level,

:42:27.:42:30.

we slept and we ate and people came in and did the basic things for us,

:42:31.:42:34.

family and friends and we were relieved of having to do anything

:42:35.:42:37.

other than basic existence because the grief is so enormous. I don't

:42:38.:42:43.

think any function above the most basic is within your capabilities

:42:44.:42:47.

and it takes time to reach the point where maybe you can start to have

:42:48.:42:51.

conversations with people, and some advice might be helpful. I think

:42:52.:42:54.

when we might reach out to people possibly be of help is once they

:42:55.:42:57.

have gone through that awful initial grief, that might be weeks or

:42:58.:43:02.

months, but when we are ready, we would be the ideal organisation to

:43:03.:43:07.

talk to, because we are a victim founded organisation. We can

:43:08.:43:12.

empathise in ways that perhaps a professional cannot. Thank you very

:43:13.:43:19.

much. That is the ambition now for Manchester to try and work out how

:43:20.:43:22.

it falls together, how it finds comfort and support, how it finds

:43:23.:43:27.

optimism in anything that has happened here, because to be frank,

:43:28.:43:30.

there is nothing else they can do right now. Emily, thank you.

:43:31.:43:35.

The prime minister said this was worst ever attack

:43:36.:43:37.

It's not the first, but it is clearly far more traumatic

:43:38.:43:40.

for Manchester than the IRA bombing in the centre of the

:43:41.:43:43.

It takes the violence that struck in London in 2005

:43:44.:43:46.

and again earlier this year, beyond the capital, to the nation.

:43:47.:43:49.

I'm joined by the author Howard Jacobson - very quickly

:43:50.:43:51.

after the attack he penned a tribute to his home city of Manchester

:43:52.:43:55.

Good evening. You wrote something interesting, though Manchester now

:43:56.:44:01.

belongs to a long list of terrorist casualties it is, it can think of

:44:02.:44:04.

itself as picked up, it is a city of rare figure and that is a striking

:44:05.:44:09.

point. It is the figure that makes it a target. It makes it vulnerable,

:44:10.:44:14.

you think of it is a big and free and happy and joking use it loving

:44:15.:44:18.

place, if ever there was a vulnerable place, it is Manchester.

:44:19.:44:23.

It is not unique, but it is a town given over to good natured fun and

:44:24.:44:29.

entertainment. Good natured relations between the people there

:44:30.:44:33.

and that makes it, well it is my hometown and I have family there, so

:44:34.:44:37.

I feel particularly sad and anxious about it. Sad anxious, emotions run

:44:38.:44:43.

high on all the days of these atrocities. How much emotion should

:44:44.:44:48.

we allow ourselves and how much can we allow ourselves if these

:44:49.:44:54.

atrocities occur once a month? In the Second World War, the story

:44:55.:44:57.

goes, the stiff upper lip and you would not have coped if you were

:44:58.:45:01.

going to get too sentimental about things, but it is very hard not to

:45:02.:45:06.

be. It is and one does not know whether the word is sentimental. The

:45:07.:45:10.

real answer is you feel as much as you need to feel and some people

:45:11.:45:13.

will feel it differently and some people will eventually come to feel

:45:14.:45:17.

better about it as the gentleman we have just seen in some people might

:45:18.:45:22.

never heal. I suspect that if I were the parent of one of those children,

:45:23.:45:26.

I would never heal and I would be angry, but that is not to say that

:45:27.:45:31.

is the way to feel. You're quite right that the war and I often think

:45:32.:45:35.

about that but I am wondering if it is the nature of the violence that

:45:36.:45:38.

is done to that makes the difference. People say terrorism is

:45:39.:45:42.

not so terrible, more people are knocked down by bicycles but there

:45:43.:45:47.

is something about an accident, the way you are killed. It is much much

:45:48.:45:51.

worse. You feel there is a malevolence in the air when that

:45:52.:45:56.

happens and you might very well and it is a personal, spiteful

:45:57.:45:58.

malevolence that is aimed at you. The person who did this wanted to

:45:59.:46:03.

kill children. We want to be a resilient society and pick ourselves

:46:04.:46:07.

up and I suppose the question is, how quickly we return to normality

:46:08.:46:11.

after these things. What else does resilience mean other than pick

:46:12.:46:16.

ourselves up and go back to work? What is a normality? The thing that

:46:17.:46:21.

gave on some consolation was the account of how people work in the

:46:22.:46:25.

immediate aftermath and how helpful people work, this is the truth about

:46:26.:46:32.

Manchester, it might sound like, they are lovely Laura, they are

:46:33.:46:35.

lovely in Manchester and very kind and I heard that story about the

:46:36.:46:38.

taxi drivers ferrying people and my father was a black taxi driver in

:46:39.:46:43.

Manchester. He is not alive now but I know he would have been calling

:46:44.:46:47.

his friends and saying, let's do it. It is a very equal society and the

:46:48.:46:54.

help one another. I'm not saying it does not have them elsewhere, but

:46:55.:46:56.

Manchester is particularly like that. That is one set of immediate

:46:57.:47:01.

responses that was great and gave you hope in human nature. It is a

:47:02.:47:11.

music city, it is a party city. You presumably help that they are back

:47:12.:47:15.

to music and entertainment as quickly as you can clear the crime

:47:16.:47:19.

scenes and the evidence. Of course yes, but we have to ask ourselves

:47:20.:47:23.

whether there is a callousness and simply getting back to that. We can

:47:24.:47:29.

work the two tracks, we can live our lives and the active and enjoy our

:47:30.:47:34.

lives and at the same time, there can be a layer of sadness, that this

:47:35.:47:38.

is the case, that this happened and we will never forget that it

:47:39.:47:42.

happened. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you for coming in.

:47:43.:47:45.

Well, that is it from us this evening.

:47:46.:47:46.

It's worth remembering amid the gloom that every event

:47:47.:47:49.

ignites a counter reaction, the bad always provokes the good;

:47:50.:47:51.

and there has been no shortage of that at all.

:47:52.:47:53.

We thought James Corden captured that thought rather well last night;

:47:54.:47:56.

the English host of the US Late Late Show on CBS came on air

:47:57.:47:59.

as events were developing, here's some of what he said.

:48:00.:48:02.

It shocks me every time we hear this sort of news that attacks

:48:03.:48:08.

like this can happen, but especially when there

:48:09.:48:10.

will be so many children at this concert tonight.

:48:11.:48:16.

Many of you won't have ever been to Manchester,

:48:17.:48:18.

but you will definitely have heard of it.

:48:19.:48:22.

It's famous all over the world for so many wonderful things.

:48:23.:48:29.

It was the birthplace of the leader of the suffragettes.

:48:30.:48:43.

It's the home of the inventor of the first computer.

:48:44.:48:45.

It's a place full of comedy and curries and character.

:48:46.:48:51.

But when I think of Manchester, the place that I know,

:48:52.:48:53.

I think of the spirit of the people there.

:48:54.:48:59.

And I'm telling you, a more tight-knit group of people

:49:00.:49:02.

Strong, proud, caring people with community at its core.

:49:03.:49:07.

And if it was even possible, the spirit of the people

:49:08.:49:10.

of Manchester will grow even stronger this evening.

:49:11.:49:17.

My thoughts and prayers are with everyone in Manchester tonight.

:49:18.:49:20.

All of the staff at the MEN arena, all of the security teams,

:49:21.:49:23.

all of the emergency services, Ariana and her team and all those

:49:24.:49:26.

We'll all go to bed holding our little ones even

:49:27.:49:30.