24/05/2017 Newsnight

When the last ounce of hope for many families and friends evaporates,

and the disappeared become the deceased.

Here in Manchester tonight, there has been more grief

at the names of those known to have died, and there have been

fast-moving developments in the police investigation

as we learn more about the suicide bomber, Salman Abedi.

He looked into the eyes of the imam and gave him a really deadly look.

He didn't say anything, but his facial features

We speak to the Libyan militiaman who interrogated

the bomber's brother, Hashem.

Before the attack, he called him, and he called him, can

you give me my mum to call her, so his brother said

that there was something going on there in Manchester,

that he would do something like an attack.

As the first pictures of the suicide device are leaked

to the American press, we hear from the Mayor

I made known my concerns about it to the US ambassador.

It's not acceptable to me that here there is a live

We cannot have information being put in the public domain that's not

the direct control of the British police and security services.

And we'll also talk to the head of intensive care

at Royal Manchester Children's Hospital.

Good evening from St Anne's Square in the heart of Manchester,

a city that has been so big-hearted in the last 48 hours.

I'm next to the flowers left as a crowd-built shrine

This is the start of what might be a lonely journey for many families.

The crowd of willing helpers can do no more.

And the grieving begins over those whose lives are now known to have

Through the day, names have been added to the list of lives lost.

Meanwhile there is a very active police investigation.

Six arrests have been made in the UK today.

But interestingly, we are getting quite a bit of information

about what is being discovered from American sources.

And tonight the New York Times has in fact published police images

I'm joined here by our defence editor, Mark Urban.

Let's just talk through what those photos show. I just took a very

brief glance at them. They are leaked scenes of crime officers type

images, we think shared through the FBI, that could be the route. The

first one shows the remnants of a Karrimor backpack, not a suicide

vest, but it went off and the way the attacker's body broke up, shall

we say, is the basis for the theory that it was on his back when it went

off. The second image shows a silver cylinder which is in fact a

triggering device, a push-button triggering device that could be used

to initiate the charge that sets off the explosives. The third image is

an image of some frankly unpleasant looking ironmongery on the floor of

the foyer, and we all know what that did to the young people around the

bomber. What we understand from this reporting is that the distribution

of the shrapnel suggested know-how in the making of the bomb, and then

the last image is a 12 volt battery, we have seen these used before as

initiators. Effectively you put a charge through wire or some thing

which causes the explosive to go off, particularly the home-made

types of explosives. All of this I think compounds the picture of a

bomb that was skilfully put together by someone who knew what they were

doing, and of course the power of the explosion, by somebody who knew

how to do that, because if you get it wrong, it either goes off before

you reach the place, or it goes off with no effect, as it happened in

July 2005. And the other issue is that the UK are sharing

intelligence, which it is useful to do, and it is finding its way into

the New York Times. There is a double irritation. Among the network

of people I know in counter-terrorism, they don't feel

very much is being shared in this country. The tendency for Whitehall

control free controlling that we see, they say there are operational

needs for that, but some of the people I talk to are within the ring

of secrecy, and this is compounded by the fact that they concede all of

these things coming out through the media in the United States,

initially the reporting about how many people had died, it was

believed to be a suicide attacker, then the name, now these images

which clearly do come from a scene of crime investigator, so there is

upset. Depressing was a word that one person used that I spoke to

today, and clearly they would like to see it stopped. Thank you, mark,

and we will hear your report later on.

Well, with so much interest in the investigation

here and around the world, and deep sadness as well as

the names and stories of the people killed emerge,

only a degree of normality has been reached.

For most of the city, it's Wednesday, and life goes on. No one,

though, is in danger of forgetting what's happened here, and as a

reminder, a heavy police presence and an active police investigation,

a city centre block of flats raided at lunchtime as police searched for

a network of conspirators who had worked with Salman Abedi. By 2pm,

normal Manchester and police Manchester were side-by-side as a

crowd gathered to see what was going on. You might have thought an armed

police raid in the centre of the city would lead to some jitters,

nervousness, fear, but there is not a bit of that here, in fact what

several people have said to me is that they find the presence of the

police, even armed police, quite reassuring. It feels under control.

It is quite easy to get back into the routine. Have you noticed any

difference in people's behaviour, that people may be done push in

queues as much? Is everybody very gentle and nice to each other? I

don't know, it is little things like you make more eye contact with

people because you are all going through the same thing, dealing with

this in a place you call home. What about the mood in Manchester if

there can be such a thing from all city. Is it anger, is a sadness, is

it back to normal? It is certainly not back to normal. Sadness, but

there has been an overwhelming coming together of people which has

been amazing to see. When the threat level was increased, it was a bit

frightening, because they were saying there could be another

attack, and that is going to scare people, but I think if you don't go

out of the house or you don't just go about with your normal behaviour,

then you are really letting the win, are in Chew? Everybody around here

is trying to get on with things, but also to be involved. An initiative

of local tattoo artists on Sunday will see money raised have Tyms.

Originally it is the industrialisation of the city, the

worker bee that helped build the city, but it has come to symbolise

how resilient and strong and hard the city is. All that use will be

?50, and we will try to that of as many people as possible. We have

nine artists, and we have had 1700 people saying they are coming to the

end of Facebook, so I don't know how we will manage it, but we will do

our best. Getting back to normal is not just the next inevitable cliche

in the narrative we impose on a city traumatised by an atrocity. It is an

important reaction in itself. It implied. There is no uprising, no

thirst for revenge, the pitchforks are not coming out, there is little

relish the conflict, no excitement of a shared mission of self

protection. It is just weary resignation. Even arguing about

Islam is something of a minority activity. The real concern is with

the news of the names now being put to the number of those who were

killed on Monday. My name is Martyn Hett, I am 27 and I have a

Coronation Street super fan... Real lives, like that of Martyn

Hett, a vivacious 29-year-old who was about to take an extended trip

to the US. He had been on TV talking about his Deirdre Barlow tattooed.

Martyn 's last tweet was jeering the Ariana Grande eight concert. Or real

lives like that of eight-year-old Saffie Roussos. It is easy to see

why the emotions still run high. Lucy Powell was MP for Manchester

Central, and again. I don't think I've given so many hugs to people as

I have done over the last few days. But people are now just going back

to work, most people are just getting on with life, because that's

what you do? I think people are determined to do that. It is very

hard to do that, particularly the closer you are to it, the people who

worked that evening in the arena or the station or any of the services

or people who know family and friends, of which loads of people in

Manchester know of people who were there that night. So I think the

closer you are to it, the harder it is to dig deep, to carry on as usual

or to do the positive thing and not to be angry, but I think my sense is

that most people are determined to do that in some way.

Love triumphs hate, we have heard that a lot in the last few days, but

the irony is we know we are really back to normal when we can start

being horrible to each other again. We are not there yet. The raw grief,

the sensitivity in the wake of tragedy mean that for the time

being, nice is normal. I am not the only one to note that

it is sad that it takes such a ghastly event to show how nice we

can be. All the shrine that was instant

Albert Square has been moved here to said Aarons Square, and this is the

heart of Manchester's reaction to Monday's events.

Earlier this evening I spoke to Andy Burnham,

the newly installed mayor of Greater Manchester,

about the city and the police investigation.

I asked him if he was satisfied with the efforts being made.

The collective effort of the public services of Greater Manchester

has been incredible, particularly with regard

Huge progress has been made over the last 24 hours,

and I'm confident that those responsible will be hunted down

One of the things on which you've commented in the past,

in your previous role as opposition Shadow Home Secretary,

is the Prevent programme, and whether that is fit for purpose

to prevent the kind of thing we saw on Monday.

Like with Northern Ireland in the 1970s and 80s,

some of the policies can lead to a whole cloud of suspicion

hanging over a whole community, or that's how that community can

feel, and Prevent has begun to be seen in that way by some

I've argued that it is in need of a review.

You cannot have policies targeted just at one community

without creating a sense of division and alienation.

More broadly, we've really got to learn the lessons of what's

come through the people of Greater Manchester this week.

It's all about solidarity and togetherness.

The terrorists want to divide us, they want to set one group

The message that's coming out of here is that we won't let

This individual who committed this unspeakable act of evil

He does not represent the Muslim community

of Greater Manchester in any way, shape or form.

It is, of course, worrying, though, that it is not just one man.

It is what police are calling a "network", potentially

living in this community, operating and feeling so much hate

That the individual who committed this crime grew up in this city.

That's difficult, obviously, for people to hear, but it

doesn't change Manchester, in my view, in any way.

They will still be as openly generous and as welcoming

And that's the way it will always be.

Extremism has been on the rise around the world

At the national level, Theresa May obviously

is the Prime Minister, and she's also in the midst

I wonder whether you think that this could allow

what Salman Abedi did on Monday, it could have an effect on the

I think it probably will change the character of the election

campaign, but that for me is a secondary concern.

The issue for me is responding, and responding in the right way,

to the enormity of what has happened here.

Let's just remember what has happened.

An unspeakable act of evil committed against children and young

It is absolutely right, in those circumstances,

The way we are all getting information about the police

If you want it, it's better to go to the American newspapers

than it is to the UK, because American sources

are telling their newspapers more than our sources are telling us.

The New York Times tonight has pictures of the detonator

of the bomb, and much more detail than the British

What is your view of what is going on there?

On Monday evening, when the reports were first coming through to me,

I agreed with the Chief Constable and others that we would take

a cautious approach to putting public information out,

because we wouldn't want to get anything wrong or compromise

the police investigation, and yet, the first reports

were coming, seemingly, out of the United States.

Obviously, you want international cooperation when it comes

to sharing information, because events like this can have

In fact, I made known my concerns about it to the US ambassador.

It's not acceptable to me that here there is a live

investigation taking place, and we cannot have information

being put in the public domain that's not in the direct control

of the British police and security services.

One obvious thing to do is not to give it to them,

They seem to be on a hotline to the authorities here.

To have information put in the public domain before

it was put there by people here is just wrong.

The British police and security services need to be in the lead

when this is a live investigation here now.

I don't think anything was compromised by what they've

done, but still, the principle is an important one.

We are in the lead here, and that is the point I made

I'm now joined by Dr Marc-Peter Fortune,

the Associate Head of the Royal Manchester Children's

Hospital, who oversees the intensive care department.

And intensive care consultant. Andy Burnham there is just said that he

thought the public services had operated well, as you would like

them to do on this kind of awful occasion. Is that your view? My

experience is within the hospital. If they work as well as they have

worked, is quite extraordinary. People have worked efficiently,

quietly, compassionately. They have been an extraordinary group of

people to work with. How did things work out on the night? Presumably it

was an ordinary night until 11pm? It was. We have a major incident plan

for anything like this occurring, and that swung into action when the

first information reached us. I was at home. I didn't come in until

several hours after it had started. Part of the plan was ensuring there

was a rotation of staff. Have you ever had a night like that? This has

been a fairly extraordinary experience for anybody, and not one

anybody would want to repeat again. Although one which I do feel very

proud of my colleagues, because throughout the whole time, people

have worked incredibly efficiently and carefully together. They are

used to working with sick children in a children's hospital. Does this

feel different? Presumably it does. Poorly and injured children normally

come to us in ones or twos. When you see numbers coming in for an

incident like this, and also the background horror of an incident

like this changes it somewhat for you. Getting people coming through

to be looked after who don't know their names really, really changes

the environment you work in. Have you had a chance to speak to them,

to the children, very much? Unfortunately, within intensive

care, the children are largely asleep with us. I haven't had the

opportunity to see anybody after waking up. How have staff coped?

They have coped by getting on with the job, focusing on what is needed.

They focus on the children firstly with the medicine, then the families

and supporting them and keeping them informed, and they have also looked

after each other. Have you had a chance to come down here and see the

way the community is... No, but we felt the community in the hospital.

It has been quite extraordinary. The well-wishers who have come in, the

amount of food that's been donated to the staff has been extraordinary,

and you felt all that around you. Thank you very much, and good luck.

We are still on a terror threat level of critical -

Mark Urban can't answer that question, but he has been looking

at the kinds of factors that lie behind the decision.

In this moment, soldiers are on the streets. Troops deployed from

constabularies around the country to protect people. The security

operation has become militarised, following a decision to raise the

threat level are critical. Going up to critical is quite a big step, so

one would imagine it is something to do with more of the idea of a

network. If they don't know who this person is, it could be prudent to go

to critical for several days, until they are confident this is the

individual on their own who happened to be given some rudimentary

training and not part of the network. Either way, it is prudent

to go to critical for a short while. As measures are put into place, the

clearest confirmation yet that the police and MI5 are trying to roll up

the Manchester bomber's associates. This is a network we are

associating. If it continues at this pace, there is activity taking place

across Greater Manchester as we speak. To that end there were four

raids in Manchester today, and one in Wigan. As the wider world follows

up Leeds based on shared intelligence, France's Interior

Minister suggested Abedi had been in Syria as well as Libya.

TRANSLATION: Someone of British nationality of Libyan orange in who

suddenly after a trip to Libya and then to Syria suddenly became

liberalised -- radicalised and then carried out an attack. There will be

more questions about why MI5 didn't assign a higher priority to Abedi,

but also why Britain's intelligence partners are proving so leaky. I

never like that any information is leaked. I think the fact that the US

media wants to release the name first was not good. I think, in the

Intel community, there is a lot of cooperation between foreign

partners, Britain and the United States, and the reason that works is

because we are all working on the same sheet of music. The same rules.

And when somebody leaks information, that is going to hurt the

cooperation. Beyond the immediate drive to roll up Abedi's network,

there are questions about this - troops deployed near the symbols of

British democracy and how de-escalation would be managed. What

we have seen is the triggering of plans made over the past two years

by intelligence professionals. Is the government exploiting it for its

own political purposes? We will only know that when we see how long the

troops remain on the streets. Is it up to the general election? Is it

beyond? That will only become clear in the weeks to come. They are

acutely aware of the danger of that, and that is why the Prime Minister's

predecessors move the decision to move up and down this threat level

out of the hands of ministers and into the hands of Jtac. They will be

very careful not to be seen to be benefiting from this in the

election. The problem is, will be election start to be affected by

this if we see another attack? In raising the effect level, raids and

so on, getting things back to normal could be trickier, given how people

do not want the sign... Site of troops on the streets to become

commonplace. Down the line from Belfast

is Professor Richard English, a politics professor who has

spent his career examining how terrorist attacks

affect our way of life, I'm interested in what you think

about the raising of the threat level. Does that bring attention to

it and sends the wrong signals? Or is that a good response? Normally in

these circumstances, these changes are made if there is strong evidence

to suggest it is the best way of protecting the public. I think it

will be a short-term response to specific intelligence. Normally

these things endure only for the period when its judge to make life

safer for people. I don't think it's alarmist. It's probably a pragmatic

response to what seems to be a network threat at the moment in the

immediate future. Just tell us, from your book, how we should respond to

terrorism? What are the things that make a good response and doesn't

encourage those who would do us harm to do so? The two key things are

first, be proportionate in response, and not to overreact and make things

worse. The second is to be realistic about what can be achieved. It's

unrealistic to talk about getting rid of terrorists, of obliterating

the ideology behind it. It's realistic to talk about ways of

minimising the threat. There are many things we have in the UK that

are more dangerous to life than terrorism, even this terrible week,

and keeping it in proportion allows us to deal with it more effectively.

Some of the things that have come up in your programme tonight about

maintaining a resilient normality makes terrorism seem less effective

as a tactic. If you make terrorism seem like it can transform things,

you make it more appealing to bring about change. If you show that it

will be futile in terms of central political goals, it's better. So

keep it proportionate if you can. But it's very difficult not to be

deeply affected by the brutal killing of 20 or more children,

isn't it? What do you think of the public response as opposed to the

authorities' response? It's entirely understandable that there is

revulsion, shock and horror, and you have seen that in Manchester and

internationally. That said, if you take a long-term view of this, you

have to balance what is emotionally understandable with what is going to

make terrorism less likely in the future. We need society to think

about the long-term effects of demonstrating that society can

endure, that we can live with this affect that is occasionally lethal.

Belfast is a city that has endured this for many years, and so this is

the best response. But that is difficult, given the emotions after

a horror like Monday. What about media coverage of these things?

After the Westminster Bridge attack, Simon Jenkins came on Newsnight and

said he thought we should make less of it, because we were encouraging

the phenomenon we were so hating. Let's take an example. Naming and

following up, as we are about to do with Salman Abedi, looking into his

background, is that something you would think we should try to avoid?

First, as long as there's no way of compromising the investigation it is

not particularly harmful, but I think Mr Jenkins is right that if

you do cover these things, we don't want to exaggerate the nature of the

threat. It's much more likely people will die in road accidents than from

terrorism. The key thing is to make sure that as we discuss it we keep a

sense of proportion and balance. For all of the horror that has been

catastrophic for the victims, we make sure we don't make this into a

bigger threat than it is, because that would make it seem like a more

attractive target. If people think they can change society and politics

through bombings, it's more likely we will have future terrorism. I

understand the horror of this week, but we need to think about future

potential victims and making them as few as possible. So discussion about

it should avoid overreaction and maintain a calmness. Very fair.

Thank you very much indeed. We are here because one man blew

himself up on Monday, Salman Abedi. It would be nice to expunge his name

from history, and not to hand him the legacy of notoriety,

but there is always a need to find out about the motivations

and the associates of those who seek We already know quite a bit

about him, and we believe We know he has family connections

to Libya, and over there, two members of his family

were arrested today. John Sweeney has been

trying to piece together the story of Salman Abedi,

and has uncovered some Just before suicide bomber

Salman Abedi struck at the Manchester Arena on Monday

night, Newsnight can The authorities in Tripoli

told us: The Libyan authorities said he'd

been in the country very recently. That means he returned

from Libya earlier this month. The Libyans also told us

that their security forces had been Salman Abedi was born and bred in

Manchester. This is his home in the south of the city. The question

wanting Manchester today is, how can he do what he did? This man has some

answers. He is a British Libyan, has known the family for 25 years and

lived erected above the bomb's brother. In recent conversations

with people and meetings with other friends, they are saying the guy is,

something is disturbing him, you know what I mean? One I have seen

him in the last few months, he didn't look, we have heard he is

being alone, being naughty on the street, I can't say violent, but

aggressive on the street, started fighting with people, finger signs,

stuff like this. Akram is not the only person who saw a change in the

22-year-old. The neighbours of Salman Abedi say that in the last

couple of months at least he started behaving oddly. He would pick fights

with people about where he parked his car, where he put his bins, and

that is not the signature of a bomb maker. The reluctant conclusion is

that Salman Abedi may have delivered the bomb, but he didn't make it.

Today police launched a series of raids across greater Manchester,

arresting five. Tonight a sixth suspect was arrested, a woman. They

have announced they are looking for a network of people who helped the

bomber. In Libya, the authorities have arrested Salman Abedi's father

and his younger brother. Here, they are questioning his older brother,

Ismail. We are told they raided two flats, they got the wrong one first,

may be true, maybe not, and now you can hear them cutting doors and

repairing the damage. The last time Britain was hit by bombs like this

was an 7/7. The evidence is growing that the police and security

services may have missed warnings about Salman Abedi. A community

worker has told the BBC that the authorities were warned about his

extremism several years ago. They reportedly said he was supporting

terrorism, and he had expressed the view being a suicide bomber was OK.

An incident at Salman Abedi's local mosque in Didsbury is revealing.

Worshippers told Akram that after the imam criticised Islamic State,

Abedi reacted. He approached the imam and gave him a killer look, a

really bad luck in his eyes, look. It was threatening look, let's put

it this. But did the local Muslim community do their utmost to warm

the authorities about Abedi? Today the Didsbury mosque held a press

conference, but they told us very little about the man who had been

part of their community or even that he had worshipped there. Did Salman

Abedi pray here, so? Did he pray here? He did attend this mosque? So,

some questions for the security services and the police but also

some questions for the people who run this mosque. The first one of

which, did Salman Abedi Reijo, and the answer to that is we are not

answering any questions. Some people might say that's not good enough.

After the attack on Westminster Bridge this March, it became obvious

that Callard -- Khalid Massoud was a lone wolf. Not

enough information was being passed on, and this was not averted. There

have been more arrests since John put that report together. There has

been a seventh. The latest news just coming in on that is in Nuneaton.

I was actually by chance talking to a Libyan living

He was in his 20s, and I asked if he had been exposed

I have to say that he could not have been more contemptuous of those

He thought it was much easier for speakers of Arabic,

like himself, to understand how stupid they sound when

Let's finish the programme by reflecting on some of these issues.

Well, with me now is Furqan Naeem, community organiser

That's a group that tries to help those from disadvantaged communities

Also Helen Pidd, northern editor of the Guardian.

Good evening to you both. How is the Muslim community in magister

reacting, how are they feeling over this so far? I think every single

citizen in Manchester, it is shock and condemnation of what has

happened, but with the Muslim community, there is another feeling

they are going through, the shock and horror that has befallen our

city, but the other thing is that this person has done this in the

name of our religion and try to hijack it using the name of Islam,

so that is a different emotion. I have been struck today just how

little talk about Islam there is any kind. It's as though, why go on

about it? I think there is something about the city of Manchester. There

is a resilience that we are all together. When things go wrong, we

held each other out, and it is not like other northern towns and cities

where you have segregated communities, Blackburn, Oldham.

People get on with each other here, Semedo that is why there has perhaps

not been as much talk about the Islamic issue, because people feel

integrated. Does that feel true to you? Kind of, but you have to

remember that the centre of Manchester is different from the

outlying boroughs. The Ukip voters are not in Manchester Central where

the glitzy skyscrapers are, they are elsewhere. How much hate and chatter

is there about, we need to do something about Islam? Is there a

lot of that? I have to say, I haven't heard it yet. I think people

are just reeling, and we haven't had a chance to take stock of what

happened. It has moved quickly, just 48 hours ago. We have had the

seventh arrest, and the net is widening, this latest arrest was in

Warwickshire, Nuneaton. I never thought I would be spending my

afternoon outside a flat in the gay village that is what team had blown

the door open potentially looking for a bomb factory. Yes, it is 48

hours, things have moved so fast, and families still have bereavement

and things like that, that is so important. How many Muslim

communities are there in magister? There are quite a few Libyans here.

Do they mix, delay know each other, are they all separate? I think it is

right mixed community, but even with the Muslim communities, they are all

quite mixed. The mosque in Didsbury in South Manchester, they have to

open up their doors because the community around them is very mixed

and open, and I think generally, the Muslim community is quite integrated

and feels quite a part of the make of Manchester, and that is what we

have seen over past two days. But Helen, we do know that there have

been seven arrests, and we know that the police are looking for and

assuming, working on the assumption that it is a network, and that is

any adjusting word, and network as opposed to a team. And it isn't just

a little gang, is it? Something a little more sinister. And organised,

and from this April we have spoken to who knew the guy who blew himself

up, they say he wasn't a particularly smart guy, wouldn't

have had the know-how to do this by himself. So as the pieces of the

jigsaw are being filled in, it is adding to the sense of unease and

disquiet about what might happen next. And I think on that, what we

saw was a calculated attack that had happened, and I think there is a

network probably out there as it is, because he has not acted alone, and

now is the time for the Muslim community to stand up and build

trust with the authorities. We have got to understand that the

authorities are here to look after us. We had a guest from the Muslim

women's network yesterday who had quite harsh words for elements of

the community who would not think of themselves as jihadists, but she

thought were quietly complicit in always criticising anything the

Government did to try to shut down the more disruptive element. I think

it is a two-way thing. Amongst the Muslim community there has to be

more trust of the Government, of the authorities, of the security

services. We have to work together, and the Muslim community now has to

step up, and this is an opportunity to showcase what they are about and

what they can do. A quick one, Helen, have you spent much time down

here in your Guardian beat? I have to say, as a journalist, you try to

remain neutral and calm, but I was glad I was wearing sunglasses today

when I was reading some of the tributes from small children. His

defiance there, there is one of them saying, you can't scare us. But I

think a lot of people are scared and very sad. Thank you very much. The

true spirit of Manchester will shines through.

We leave you with the pupils of Chetham's School of Music,

which sits in the shadow of the Manchester Arena,

who held their own vigil for the victims of the attack

# So I'll start a revolution from my bed

# Cos you said the brains I had went to my head

# Step outside, summertime's in bloom

# You ain't ever gonna burn my heart out

Hello there. 26 degrees today was the high, but it could get