24/05/2017 Newsnight


24/05/2017

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis.


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Transcript


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When the last ounce of hope for many families and friends evaporates,

:00:08.:00:11.

and the disappeared become the deceased.

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Here in Manchester tonight, there has been more grief

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at the names of those known to have died, and there have been

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fast-moving developments in the police investigation

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as we learn more about the suicide bomber, Salman Abedi.

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He looked into the eyes of the imam and gave him a really deadly look.

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He didn't say anything, but his facial features

:00:33.:00:34.

We speak to the Libyan militiaman who interrogated

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the bomber's brother, Hashem.

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Before the attack, he called him, and he called him, can

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you give me my mum to call her, so his brother said

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that there was something going on there in Manchester,

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that he would do something like an attack.

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As the first pictures of the suicide device are leaked

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to the American press, we hear from the Mayor

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I made known my concerns about it to the US ambassador.

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It's not acceptable to me that here there is a live

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We cannot have information being put in the public domain that's not

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the direct control of the British police and security services.

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And we'll also talk to the head of intensive care

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at Royal Manchester Children's Hospital.

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Good evening from St Anne's Square in the heart of Manchester,

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a city that has been so big-hearted in the last 48 hours.

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I'm next to the flowers left as a crowd-built shrine

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This is the start of what might be a lonely journey for many families.

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The crowd of willing helpers can do no more.

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And the grieving begins over those whose lives are now known to have

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Through the day, names have been added to the list of lives lost.

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Meanwhile there is a very active police investigation.

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Six arrests have been made in the UK today.

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But interestingly, we are getting quite a bit of information

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about what is being discovered from American sources.

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And tonight the New York Times has in fact published police images

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I'm joined here by our defence editor, Mark Urban.

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Let's just talk through what those photos show. I just took a very

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brief glance at them. They are leaked scenes of crime officers type

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images, we think shared through the FBI, that could be the route. The

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first one shows the remnants of a Karrimor backpack, not a suicide

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vest, but it went off and the way the attacker's body broke up, shall

:03:12.:03:14.

we say, is the basis for the theory that it was on his back when it went

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off. The second image shows a silver cylinder which is in fact a

:03:21.:03:24.

triggering device, a push-button triggering device that could be used

:03:25.:03:29.

to initiate the charge that sets off the explosives. The third image is

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an image of some frankly unpleasant looking ironmongery on the floor of

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the foyer, and we all know what that did to the young people around the

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bomber. What we understand from this reporting is that the distribution

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of the shrapnel suggested know-how in the making of the bomb, and then

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the last image is a 12 volt battery, we have seen these used before as

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initiators. Effectively you put a charge through wire or some thing

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which causes the explosive to go off, particularly the home-made

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types of explosives. All of this I think compounds the picture of a

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bomb that was skilfully put together by someone who knew what they were

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doing, and of course the power of the explosion, by somebody who knew

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how to do that, because if you get it wrong, it either goes off before

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you reach the place, or it goes off with no effect, as it happened in

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July 2005. And the other issue is that the UK are sharing

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intelligence, which it is useful to do, and it is finding its way into

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the New York Times. There is a double irritation. Among the network

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of people I know in counter-terrorism, they don't feel

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very much is being shared in this country. The tendency for Whitehall

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control free controlling that we see, they say there are operational

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needs for that, but some of the people I talk to are within the ring

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of secrecy, and this is compounded by the fact that they concede all of

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these things coming out through the media in the United States,

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initially the reporting about how many people had died, it was

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believed to be a suicide attacker, then the name, now these images

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which clearly do come from a scene of crime investigator, so there is

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upset. Depressing was a word that one person used that I spoke to

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today, and clearly they would like to see it stopped. Thank you, mark,

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and we will hear your report later on.

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Well, with so much interest in the investigation

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here and around the world, and deep sadness as well as

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the names and stories of the people killed emerge,

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only a degree of normality has been reached.

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For most of the city, it's Wednesday, and life goes on. No one,

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though, is in danger of forgetting what's happened here, and as a

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reminder, a heavy police presence and an active police investigation,

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a city centre block of flats raided at lunchtime as police searched for

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a network of conspirators who had worked with Salman Abedi. By 2pm,

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normal Manchester and police Manchester were side-by-side as a

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crowd gathered to see what was going on. You might have thought an armed

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police raid in the centre of the city would lead to some jitters,

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nervousness, fear, but there is not a bit of that here, in fact what

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several people have said to me is that they find the presence of the

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police, even armed police, quite reassuring. It feels under control.

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It is quite easy to get back into the routine. Have you noticed any

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difference in people's behaviour, that people may be done push in

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queues as much? Is everybody very gentle and nice to each other? I

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don't know, it is little things like you make more eye contact with

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people because you are all going through the same thing, dealing with

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this in a place you call home. What about the mood in Manchester if

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there can be such a thing from all city. Is it anger, is a sadness, is

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it back to normal? It is certainly not back to normal. Sadness, but

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there has been an overwhelming coming together of people which has

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been amazing to see. When the threat level was increased, it was a bit

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frightening, because they were saying there could be another

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attack, and that is going to scare people, but I think if you don't go

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out of the house or you don't just go about with your normal behaviour,

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then you are really letting the win, are in Chew? Everybody around here

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is trying to get on with things, but also to be involved. An initiative

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of local tattoo artists on Sunday will see money raised have Tyms.

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Originally it is the industrialisation of the city, the

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worker bee that helped build the city, but it has come to symbolise

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how resilient and strong and hard the city is. All that use will be

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?50, and we will try to that of as many people as possible. We have

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nine artists, and we have had 1700 people saying they are coming to the

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end of Facebook, so I don't know how we will manage it, but we will do

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our best. Getting back to normal is not just the next inevitable cliche

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in the narrative we impose on a city traumatised by an atrocity. It is an

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important reaction in itself. It implied. There is no uprising, no

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thirst for revenge, the pitchforks are not coming out, there is little

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relish the conflict, no excitement of a shared mission of self

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protection. It is just weary resignation. Even arguing about

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Islam is something of a minority activity. The real concern is with

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the news of the names now being put to the number of those who were

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killed on Monday. My name is Martyn Hett, I am 27 and I have a

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Coronation Street super fan... Real lives, like that of Martyn

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Hett, a vivacious 29-year-old who was about to take an extended trip

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to the US. He had been on TV talking about his Deirdre Barlow tattooed.

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Martyn 's last tweet was jeering the Ariana Grande eight concert. Or real

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lives like that of eight-year-old Saffie Roussos. It is easy to see

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why the emotions still run high. Lucy Powell was MP for Manchester

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Central, and again. I don't think I've given so many hugs to people as

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I have done over the last few days. But people are now just going back

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to work, most people are just getting on with life, because that's

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what you do? I think people are determined to do that. It is very

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hard to do that, particularly the closer you are to it, the people who

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worked that evening in the arena or the station or any of the services

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or people who know family and friends, of which loads of people in

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Manchester know of people who were there that night. So I think the

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closer you are to it, the harder it is to dig deep, to carry on as usual

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or to do the positive thing and not to be angry, but I think my sense is

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that most people are determined to do that in some way.

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Love triumphs hate, we have heard that a lot in the last few days, but

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the irony is we know we are really back to normal when we can start

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being horrible to each other again. We are not there yet. The raw grief,

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the sensitivity in the wake of tragedy mean that for the time

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being, nice is normal. I am not the only one to note that

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it is sad that it takes such a ghastly event to show how nice we

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can be. All the shrine that was instant

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Albert Square has been moved here to said Aarons Square, and this is the

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heart of Manchester's reaction to Monday's events.

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Earlier this evening I spoke to Andy Burnham,

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the newly installed mayor of Greater Manchester,

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about the city and the police investigation.

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I asked him if he was satisfied with the efforts being made.

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The collective effort of the public services of Greater Manchester

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has been incredible, particularly with regard

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Huge progress has been made over the last 24 hours,

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and I'm confident that those responsible will be hunted down

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One of the things on which you've commented in the past,

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in your previous role as opposition Shadow Home Secretary,

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is the Prevent programme, and whether that is fit for purpose

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to prevent the kind of thing we saw on Monday.

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Like with Northern Ireland in the 1970s and 80s,

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some of the policies can lead to a whole cloud of suspicion

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hanging over a whole community, or that's how that community can

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feel, and Prevent has begun to be seen in that way by some

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I've argued that it is in need of a review.

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You cannot have policies targeted just at one community

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without creating a sense of division and alienation.

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More broadly, we've really got to learn the lessons of what's

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come through the people of Greater Manchester this week.

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It's all about solidarity and togetherness.

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The terrorists want to divide us, they want to set one group

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The message that's coming out of here is that we won't let

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This individual who committed this unspeakable act of evil

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He does not represent the Muslim community

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of Greater Manchester in any way, shape or form.

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It is, of course, worrying, though, that it is not just one man.

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It is what police are calling a "network", potentially

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living in this community, operating and feeling so much hate

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That the individual who committed this crime grew up in this city.

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That's difficult, obviously, for people to hear, but it

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doesn't change Manchester, in my view, in any way.

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They will still be as openly generous and as welcoming

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And that's the way it will always be.

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Extremism has been on the rise around the world

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At the national level, Theresa May obviously

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is the Prime Minister, and she's also in the midst

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I wonder whether you think that this could allow

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what Salman Abedi did on Monday, it could have an effect on the

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I think it probably will change the character of the election

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campaign, but that for me is a secondary concern.

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The issue for me is responding, and responding in the right way,

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to the enormity of what has happened here.

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Let's just remember what has happened.

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An unspeakable act of evil committed against children and young

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It is absolutely right, in those circumstances,

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The way we are all getting information about the police

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If you want it, it's better to go to the American newspapers

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than it is to the UK, because American sources

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are telling their newspapers more than our sources are telling us.

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The New York Times tonight has pictures of the detonator

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of the bomb, and much more detail than the British

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What is your view of what is going on there?

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On Monday evening, when the reports were first coming through to me,

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I agreed with the Chief Constable and others that we would take

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a cautious approach to putting public information out,

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because we wouldn't want to get anything wrong or compromise

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the police investigation, and yet, the first reports

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were coming, seemingly, out of the United States.

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Obviously, you want international cooperation when it comes

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to sharing information, because events like this can have

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In fact, I made known my concerns about it to the US ambassador.

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It's not acceptable to me that here there is a live

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investigation taking place, and we cannot have information

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being put in the public domain that's not in the direct control

:16:06.:16:08.

of the British police and security services.

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One obvious thing to do is not to give it to them,

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They seem to be on a hotline to the authorities here.

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To have information put in the public domain before

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it was put there by people here is just wrong.

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The British police and security services need to be in the lead

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when this is a live investigation here now.

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I don't think anything was compromised by what they've

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done, but still, the principle is an important one.

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We are in the lead here, and that is the point I made

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I'm now joined by Dr Marc-Peter Fortune,

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the Associate Head of the Royal Manchester Children's

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Hospital, who oversees the intensive care department.

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And intensive care consultant. Andy Burnham there is just said that he

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thought the public services had operated well, as you would like

:17:16.:17:19.

them to do on this kind of awful occasion. Is that your view? My

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experience is within the hospital. If they work as well as they have

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worked, is quite extraordinary. People have worked efficiently,

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quietly, compassionately. They have been an extraordinary group of

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people to work with. How did things work out on the night? Presumably it

:17:41.:17:45.

was an ordinary night until 11pm? It was. We have a major incident plan

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for anything like this occurring, and that swung into action when the

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first information reached us. I was at home. I didn't come in until

:17:56.:18:00.

several hours after it had started. Part of the plan was ensuring there

:18:01.:18:08.

was a rotation of staff. Have you ever had a night like that? This has

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been a fairly extraordinary experience for anybody, and not one

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anybody would want to repeat again. Although one which I do feel very

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proud of my colleagues, because throughout the whole time, people

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have worked incredibly efficiently and carefully together. They are

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used to working with sick children in a children's hospital. Does this

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feel different? Presumably it does. Poorly and injured children normally

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come to us in ones or twos. When you see numbers coming in for an

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incident like this, and also the background horror of an incident

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like this changes it somewhat for you. Getting people coming through

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to be looked after who don't know their names really, really changes

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the environment you work in. Have you had a chance to speak to them,

:19:02.:19:07.

to the children, very much? Unfortunately, within intensive

:19:08.:19:11.

care, the children are largely asleep with us. I haven't had the

:19:12.:19:15.

opportunity to see anybody after waking up. How have staff coped?

:19:16.:19:20.

They have coped by getting on with the job, focusing on what is needed.

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They focus on the children firstly with the medicine, then the families

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and supporting them and keeping them informed, and they have also looked

:19:32.:19:35.

after each other. Have you had a chance to come down here and see the

:19:36.:19:40.

way the community is... No, but we felt the community in the hospital.

:19:41.:19:45.

It has been quite extraordinary. The well-wishers who have come in, the

:19:46.:19:49.

amount of food that's been donated to the staff has been extraordinary,

:19:50.:19:55.

and you felt all that around you. Thank you very much, and good luck.

:19:56.:19:58.

We are still on a terror threat level of critical -

:19:59.:20:01.

Mark Urban can't answer that question, but he has been looking

:20:02.:20:06.

at the kinds of factors that lie behind the decision.

:20:07.:20:19.

In this moment, soldiers are on the streets. Troops deployed from

:20:20.:20:26.

constabularies around the country to protect people. The security

:20:27.:20:29.

operation has become militarised, following a decision to raise the

:20:30.:20:34.

threat level are critical. Going up to critical is quite a big step, so

:20:35.:20:40.

one would imagine it is something to do with more of the idea of a

:20:41.:20:46.

network. If they don't know who this person is, it could be prudent to go

:20:47.:20:50.

to critical for several days, until they are confident this is the

:20:51.:20:55.

individual on their own who happened to be given some rudimentary

:20:56.:20:58.

training and not part of the network. Either way, it is prudent

:20:59.:21:05.

to go to critical for a short while. As measures are put into place, the

:21:06.:21:10.

clearest confirmation yet that the police and MI5 are trying to roll up

:21:11.:21:16.

the Manchester bomber's associates. This is a network we are

:21:17.:21:23.

associating. If it continues at this pace, there is activity taking place

:21:24.:21:26.

across Greater Manchester as we speak. To that end there were four

:21:27.:21:30.

raids in Manchester today, and one in Wigan. As the wider world follows

:21:31.:21:36.

up Leeds based on shared intelligence, France's Interior

:21:37.:21:40.

Minister suggested Abedi had been in Syria as well as Libya.

:21:41.:21:48.

TRANSLATION: Someone of British nationality of Libyan orange in who

:21:49.:21:51.

suddenly after a trip to Libya and then to Syria suddenly became

:21:52.:21:58.

liberalised -- radicalised and then carried out an attack. There will be

:21:59.:22:06.

more questions about why MI5 didn't assign a higher priority to Abedi,

:22:07.:22:12.

but also why Britain's intelligence partners are proving so leaky. I

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never like that any information is leaked. I think the fact that the US

:22:16.:22:20.

media wants to release the name first was not good. I think, in the

:22:21.:22:29.

Intel community, there is a lot of cooperation between foreign

:22:30.:22:32.

partners, Britain and the United States, and the reason that works is

:22:33.:22:38.

because we are all working on the same sheet of music. The same rules.

:22:39.:22:45.

And when somebody leaks information, that is going to hurt the

:22:46.:22:49.

cooperation. Beyond the immediate drive to roll up Abedi's network,

:22:50.:22:54.

there are questions about this - troops deployed near the symbols of

:22:55.:22:59.

British democracy and how de-escalation would be managed. What

:23:00.:23:03.

we have seen is the triggering of plans made over the past two years

:23:04.:23:09.

by intelligence professionals. Is the government exploiting it for its

:23:10.:23:13.

own political purposes? We will only know that when we see how long the

:23:14.:23:18.

troops remain on the streets. Is it up to the general election? Is it

:23:19.:23:22.

beyond? That will only become clear in the weeks to come. They are

:23:23.:23:27.

acutely aware of the danger of that, and that is why the Prime Minister's

:23:28.:23:30.

predecessors move the decision to move up and down this threat level

:23:31.:23:36.

out of the hands of ministers and into the hands of Jtac. They will be

:23:37.:23:43.

very careful not to be seen to be benefiting from this in the

:23:44.:23:46.

election. The problem is, will be election start to be affected by

:23:47.:23:51.

this if we see another attack? In raising the effect level, raids and

:23:52.:24:02.

so on, getting things back to normal could be trickier, given how people

:24:03.:24:08.

do not want the sign... Site of troops on the streets to become

:24:09.:24:09.

commonplace. Down the line from Belfast

:24:10.:24:13.

is Professor Richard English, a politics professor who has

:24:14.:24:15.

spent his career examining how terrorist attacks

:24:16.:24:17.

affect our way of life, I'm interested in what you think

:24:18.:24:24.

about the raising of the threat level. Does that bring attention to

:24:25.:24:29.

it and sends the wrong signals? Or is that a good response? Normally in

:24:30.:24:34.

these circumstances, these changes are made if there is strong evidence

:24:35.:24:38.

to suggest it is the best way of protecting the public. I think it

:24:39.:24:44.

will be a short-term response to specific intelligence. Normally

:24:45.:24:47.

these things endure only for the period when its judge to make life

:24:48.:24:52.

safer for people. I don't think it's alarmist. It's probably a pragmatic

:24:53.:24:59.

response to what seems to be a network threat at the moment in the

:25:00.:25:02.

immediate future. Just tell us, from your book, how we should respond to

:25:03.:25:08.

terrorism? What are the things that make a good response and doesn't

:25:09.:25:11.

encourage those who would do us harm to do so? The two key things are

:25:12.:25:18.

first, be proportionate in response, and not to overreact and make things

:25:19.:25:23.

worse. The second is to be realistic about what can be achieved. It's

:25:24.:25:29.

unrealistic to talk about getting rid of terrorists, of obliterating

:25:30.:25:32.

the ideology behind it. It's realistic to talk about ways of

:25:33.:25:37.

minimising the threat. There are many things we have in the UK that

:25:38.:25:42.

are more dangerous to life than terrorism, even this terrible week,

:25:43.:25:48.

and keeping it in proportion allows us to deal with it more effectively.

:25:49.:25:53.

Some of the things that have come up in your programme tonight about

:25:54.:25:58.

maintaining a resilient normality makes terrorism seem less effective

:25:59.:26:02.

as a tactic. If you make terrorism seem like it can transform things,

:26:03.:26:07.

you make it more appealing to bring about change. If you show that it

:26:08.:26:13.

will be futile in terms of central political goals, it's better. So

:26:14.:26:17.

keep it proportionate if you can. But it's very difficult not to be

:26:18.:26:21.

deeply affected by the brutal killing of 20 or more children,

:26:22.:26:27.

isn't it? What do you think of the public response as opposed to the

:26:28.:26:33.

authorities' response? It's entirely understandable that there is

:26:34.:26:37.

revulsion, shock and horror, and you have seen that in Manchester and

:26:38.:26:41.

internationally. That said, if you take a long-term view of this, you

:26:42.:26:46.

have to balance what is emotionally understandable with what is going to

:26:47.:26:50.

make terrorism less likely in the future. We need society to think

:26:51.:26:56.

about the long-term effects of demonstrating that society can

:26:57.:27:00.

endure, that we can live with this affect that is occasionally lethal.

:27:01.:27:06.

Belfast is a city that has endured this for many years, and so this is

:27:07.:27:16.

the best response. But that is difficult, given the emotions after

:27:17.:27:21.

a horror like Monday. What about media coverage of these things?

:27:22.:27:26.

After the Westminster Bridge attack, Simon Jenkins came on Newsnight and

:27:27.:27:31.

said he thought we should make less of it, because we were encouraging

:27:32.:27:37.

the phenomenon we were so hating. Let's take an example. Naming and

:27:38.:27:41.

following up, as we are about to do with Salman Abedi, looking into his

:27:42.:27:46.

background, is that something you would think we should try to avoid?

:27:47.:27:52.

First, as long as there's no way of compromising the investigation it is

:27:53.:27:57.

not particularly harmful, but I think Mr Jenkins is right that if

:27:58.:28:02.

you do cover these things, we don't want to exaggerate the nature of the

:28:03.:28:06.

threat. It's much more likely people will die in road accidents than from

:28:07.:28:11.

terrorism. The key thing is to make sure that as we discuss it we keep a

:28:12.:28:16.

sense of proportion and balance. For all of the horror that has been

:28:17.:28:19.

catastrophic for the victims, we make sure we don't make this into a

:28:20.:28:24.

bigger threat than it is, because that would make it seem like a more

:28:25.:28:31.

attractive target. If people think they can change society and politics

:28:32.:28:34.

through bombings, it's more likely we will have future terrorism. I

:28:35.:28:38.

understand the horror of this week, but we need to think about future

:28:39.:28:43.

potential victims and making them as few as possible. So discussion about

:28:44.:28:48.

it should avoid overreaction and maintain a calmness. Very fair.

:28:49.:28:52.

Thank you very much indeed. We are here because one man blew

:28:53.:28:56.

himself up on Monday, Salman Abedi. It would be nice to expunge his name

:28:57.:28:59.

from history, and not to hand him the legacy of notoriety,

:29:00.:29:02.

but there is always a need to find out about the motivations

:29:03.:29:05.

and the associates of those who seek We already know quite a bit

:29:06.:29:08.

about him, and we believe We know he has family connections

:29:09.:29:12.

to Libya, and over there, two members of his family

:29:13.:29:15.

were arrested today. John Sweeney has been

:29:16.:29:17.

trying to piece together the story of Salman Abedi,

:29:18.:29:19.

and has uncovered some Just before suicide bomber

:29:20.:29:21.

Salman Abedi struck at the Manchester Arena on Monday

:29:22.:29:30.

night, Newsnight can The authorities in Tripoli

:29:31.:29:33.

told us: The Libyan authorities said he'd

:29:34.:30:06.

been in the country very recently. That means he returned

:30:07.:30:20.

from Libya earlier this month. The Libyans also told us

:30:21.:30:24.

that their security forces had been Salman Abedi was born and bred in

:30:25.:31:00.

Manchester. This is his home in the south of the city. The question

:31:01.:31:05.

wanting Manchester today is, how can he do what he did? This man has some

:31:06.:31:11.

answers. He is a British Libyan, has known the family for 25 years and

:31:12.:31:14.

lived erected above the bomb's brother. In recent conversations

:31:15.:31:22.

with people and meetings with other friends, they are saying the guy is,

:31:23.:31:27.

something is disturbing him, you know what I mean? One I have seen

:31:28.:31:31.

him in the last few months, he didn't look, we have heard he is

:31:32.:31:40.

being alone, being naughty on the street, I can't say violent, but

:31:41.:31:44.

aggressive on the street, started fighting with people, finger signs,

:31:45.:31:50.

stuff like this. Akram is not the only person who saw a change in the

:31:51.:31:53.

22-year-old. The neighbours of Salman Abedi say that in the last

:31:54.:31:58.

couple of months at least he started behaving oddly. He would pick fights

:31:59.:32:01.

with people about where he parked his car, where he put his bins, and

:32:02.:32:06.

that is not the signature of a bomb maker. The reluctant conclusion is

:32:07.:32:11.

that Salman Abedi may have delivered the bomb, but he didn't make it.

:32:12.:32:17.

Today police launched a series of raids across greater Manchester,

:32:18.:32:21.

arresting five. Tonight a sixth suspect was arrested, a woman. They

:32:22.:32:26.

have announced they are looking for a network of people who helped the

:32:27.:32:31.

bomber. In Libya, the authorities have arrested Salman Abedi's father

:32:32.:32:36.

and his younger brother. Here, they are questioning his older brother,

:32:37.:32:45.

Ismail. We are told they raided two flats, they got the wrong one first,

:32:46.:32:49.

may be true, maybe not, and now you can hear them cutting doors and

:32:50.:32:54.

repairing the damage. The last time Britain was hit by bombs like this

:32:55.:33:01.

was an 7/7. The evidence is growing that the police and security

:33:02.:33:05.

services may have missed warnings about Salman Abedi. A community

:33:06.:33:09.

worker has told the BBC that the authorities were warned about his

:33:10.:33:13.

extremism several years ago. They reportedly said he was supporting

:33:14.:33:19.

terrorism, and he had expressed the view being a suicide bomber was OK.

:33:20.:33:25.

An incident at Salman Abedi's local mosque in Didsbury is revealing.

:33:26.:33:30.

Worshippers told Akram that after the imam criticised Islamic State,

:33:31.:33:38.

Abedi reacted. He approached the imam and gave him a killer look, a

:33:39.:33:45.

really bad luck in his eyes, look. It was threatening look, let's put

:33:46.:33:49.

it this. But did the local Muslim community do their utmost to warm

:33:50.:33:53.

the authorities about Abedi? Today the Didsbury mosque held a press

:33:54.:33:58.

conference, but they told us very little about the man who had been

:33:59.:34:02.

part of their community or even that he had worshipped there. Did Salman

:34:03.:34:09.

Abedi pray here, so? Did he pray here? He did attend this mosque? So,

:34:10.:34:16.

some questions for the security services and the police but also

:34:17.:34:20.

some questions for the people who run this mosque. The first one of

:34:21.:34:25.

which, did Salman Abedi Reijo, and the answer to that is we are not

:34:26.:34:31.

answering any questions. Some people might say that's not good enough.

:34:32.:34:35.

After the attack on Westminster Bridge this March, it became obvious

:34:36.:34:37.

that Callard -- Khalid Massoud was a lone wolf. Not

:34:38.:35:00.

enough information was being passed on, and this was not averted. There

:35:01.:35:05.

have been more arrests since John put that report together. There has

:35:06.:35:10.

been a seventh. The latest news just coming in on that is in Nuneaton.

:35:11.:35:16.

I was actually by chance talking to a Libyan living

:35:17.:35:18.

He was in his 20s, and I asked if he had been exposed

:35:19.:35:22.

I have to say that he could not have been more contemptuous of those

:35:23.:35:27.

He thought it was much easier for speakers of Arabic,

:35:28.:35:31.

like himself, to understand how stupid they sound when

:35:32.:35:33.

Let's finish the programme by reflecting on some of these issues.

:35:34.:35:46.

Well, with me now is Furqan Naeem, community organiser

:35:47.:35:49.

That's a group that tries to help those from disadvantaged communities

:35:50.:35:52.

Also Helen Pidd, northern editor of the Guardian.

:35:53.:35:56.

Good evening to you both. How is the Muslim community in magister

:35:57.:36:05.

reacting, how are they feeling over this so far? I think every single

:36:06.:36:14.

citizen in Manchester, it is shock and condemnation of what has

:36:15.:36:18.

happened, but with the Muslim community, there is another feeling

:36:19.:36:21.

they are going through, the shock and horror that has befallen our

:36:22.:36:25.

city, but the other thing is that this person has done this in the

:36:26.:36:28.

name of our religion and try to hijack it using the name of Islam,

:36:29.:36:33.

so that is a different emotion. I have been struck today just how

:36:34.:36:36.

little talk about Islam there is any kind. It's as though, why go on

:36:37.:36:45.

about it? I think there is something about the city of Manchester. There

:36:46.:36:49.

is a resilience that we are all together. When things go wrong, we

:36:50.:36:54.

held each other out, and it is not like other northern towns and cities

:36:55.:36:58.

where you have segregated communities, Blackburn, Oldham.

:36:59.:37:02.

People get on with each other here, Semedo that is why there has perhaps

:37:03.:37:06.

not been as much talk about the Islamic issue, because people feel

:37:07.:37:09.

integrated. Does that feel true to you? Kind of, but you have to

:37:10.:37:14.

remember that the centre of Manchester is different from the

:37:15.:37:19.

outlying boroughs. The Ukip voters are not in Manchester Central where

:37:20.:37:24.

the glitzy skyscrapers are, they are elsewhere. How much hate and chatter

:37:25.:37:28.

is there about, we need to do something about Islam? Is there a

:37:29.:37:32.

lot of that? I have to say, I haven't heard it yet. I think people

:37:33.:37:37.

are just reeling, and we haven't had a chance to take stock of what

:37:38.:37:41.

happened. It has moved quickly, just 48 hours ago. We have had the

:37:42.:37:46.

seventh arrest, and the net is widening, this latest arrest was in

:37:47.:37:50.

Warwickshire, Nuneaton. I never thought I would be spending my

:37:51.:37:54.

afternoon outside a flat in the gay village that is what team had blown

:37:55.:37:58.

the door open potentially looking for a bomb factory. Yes, it is 48

:37:59.:38:04.

hours, things have moved so fast, and families still have bereavement

:38:05.:38:11.

and things like that, that is so important. How many Muslim

:38:12.:38:15.

communities are there in magister? There are quite a few Libyans here.

:38:16.:38:19.

Do they mix, delay know each other, are they all separate? I think it is

:38:20.:38:25.

right mixed community, but even with the Muslim communities, they are all

:38:26.:38:33.

quite mixed. The mosque in Didsbury in South Manchester, they have to

:38:34.:38:36.

open up their doors because the community around them is very mixed

:38:37.:38:40.

and open, and I think generally, the Muslim community is quite integrated

:38:41.:38:45.

and feels quite a part of the make of Manchester, and that is what we

:38:46.:38:51.

have seen over past two days. But Helen, we do know that there have

:38:52.:38:55.

been seven arrests, and we know that the police are looking for and

:38:56.:38:59.

assuming, working on the assumption that it is a network, and that is

:39:00.:39:03.

any adjusting word, and network as opposed to a team. And it isn't just

:39:04.:39:09.

a little gang, is it? Something a little more sinister. And organised,

:39:10.:39:15.

and from this April we have spoken to who knew the guy who blew himself

:39:16.:39:19.

up, they say he wasn't a particularly smart guy, wouldn't

:39:20.:39:22.

have had the know-how to do this by himself. So as the pieces of the

:39:23.:39:27.

jigsaw are being filled in, it is adding to the sense of unease and

:39:28.:39:29.

disquiet about what might happen next. And I think on that, what we

:39:30.:39:36.

saw was a calculated attack that had happened, and I think there is a

:39:37.:39:40.

network probably out there as it is, because he has not acted alone, and

:39:41.:39:44.

now is the time for the Muslim community to stand up and build

:39:45.:39:48.

trust with the authorities. We have got to understand that the

:39:49.:39:50.

authorities are here to look after us. We had a guest from the Muslim

:39:51.:39:59.

women's network yesterday who had quite harsh words for elements of

:40:00.:40:03.

the community who would not think of themselves as jihadists, but she

:40:04.:40:09.

thought were quietly complicit in always criticising anything the

:40:10.:40:12.

Government did to try to shut down the more disruptive element. I think

:40:13.:40:19.

it is a two-way thing. Amongst the Muslim community there has to be

:40:20.:40:23.

more trust of the Government, of the authorities, of the security

:40:24.:40:27.

services. We have to work together, and the Muslim community now has to

:40:28.:40:30.

step up, and this is an opportunity to showcase what they are about and

:40:31.:40:36.

what they can do. A quick one, Helen, have you spent much time down

:40:37.:40:42.

here in your Guardian beat? I have to say, as a journalist, you try to

:40:43.:40:46.

remain neutral and calm, but I was glad I was wearing sunglasses today

:40:47.:40:50.

when I was reading some of the tributes from small children. His

:40:51.:40:54.

defiance there, there is one of them saying, you can't scare us. But I

:40:55.:40:58.

think a lot of people are scared and very sad. Thank you very much. The

:40:59.:41:03.

true spirit of Manchester will shines through.

:41:04.:41:07.

We leave you with the pupils of Chetham's School of Music,

:41:08.:41:11.

which sits in the shadow of the Manchester Arena,

:41:12.:41:13.

who held their own vigil for the victims of the attack

:41:14.:41:16.

# So I'll start a revolution from my bed

:41:17.:41:21.

# Cos you said the brains I had went to my head

:41:22.:41:24.

# Step outside, summertime's in bloom

:41:25.:41:30.

# You ain't ever gonna burn my heart out

:41:31.:42:32.

Hello there. 26 degrees today was the high, but it could get

:42:33.:42:33.