25/05/2017 Newsnight


25/05/2017

With Emily Maitlis. The aftermath of the Manchester bombing and Jeremy Corbyn's foreign policy speech. Plus did the bomber fight in Libya's civil war and is Prevent working?


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Transcript


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Manchester remembers: A city known for its noise comes

:00:07.:00:14.

Police close in on those linked to the attacker.

:00:15.:00:27.

The general election is two weeks today.

:00:28.:00:31.

Tonight, the first sense of how Manchester's tragedy may shape

:00:32.:00:34.

Tomorrow Jeremy Corbyn will return to the campaign Trail in a major

:00:35.:00:46.

speech in which he appears to draw a direct connection between British

:00:47.:00:48.

foreign policy and terrorist attacks.

:00:49.:00:55.

And have voters minds been changed by what's happened?

:00:56.:00:57.

I never would imagine a bomb in Manchester,

:00:58.:00:59.

not in a big venue like that, anywhere in the whole

:01:00.:01:01.

And now security, national security, is a main issue for me.

:01:02.:01:07.

Meanwhile Newsnight has uncovered new details

:01:08.:01:09.

We have information tonight that Salman Abedi may have fought

:01:10.:01:23.

in Libya in the civil war that ousted Colonel Gadaffi.

:01:24.:01:25.

And we'll be talking about all of this with a former home

:01:26.:01:28.

secretary, and discussing whether the government's

:01:29.:01:29.

It's not often you hear this city go silent.

:01:30.:01:48.

When it does, the effect is overwhelming.

:01:49.:01:54.

At 11 o'clock they came here to mourn, to mark a moment

:01:55.:01:57.

of silence and then to try - and pick up their lives.

:01:58.:02:00.

The Queen paid her respects to survivors at the children's

:02:01.:02:03.

hospital, thanking medical staff on the front line of this tragedy.

:02:04.:02:05.

And the police investigation closed in on those linked to the killer.

:02:06.:02:08.

This week has been a broadly politics-free zone.

:02:09.:02:10.

Jeremy Corbyn will invoke Manchester's tragedy to talk

:02:11.:02:13.

about the connection between foreign policy and terrorism.

:02:14.:02:15.

It is cautiously worded but unmistakable in its message -

:02:16.:02:18.

Nick Watt is on College Green in Westminster for us and can

:02:19.:02:25.

talk us through what it will contain, Nick?

:02:26.:02:29.

As you said, tomorrow Jeremy Corbyn will directly address the Manchester

:02:30.:02:35.

bombing as the general election campaign resumes. In remarks being

:02:36.:02:39.

interpreted in some quarters as drawing a link between recent UK

:02:40.:02:43.

military interventions and the bombing, the leader of the Labour

:02:44.:02:47.

Party will say that "Many experts have pointed to the connections

:02:48.:02:52.

between wars our government has supported or fought in in other

:02:53.:02:56.

countries and terrorism here at home." It's important to bear in

:02:57.:03:03.

mind that Mr Corbyn also says his remarks "In no way reduce the guilt

:03:04.:03:09.

of those who attack our children." The reason he's saying this is

:03:10.:03:13.

because he's setting out how future Labour government would embark on

:03:14.:03:18.

what he calls an informed, understanding of the causes of

:03:19.:03:21.

terrorism. At one of all these remarks are not a surprise. Jeremy

:03:22.:03:26.

Corbyn has opposed all recent military intervention by the UK.

:03:27.:03:32.

Obviously the timing, just four days after the Manchester attack is

:03:33.:03:39.

significant. The speech will come tomorrow. What kind of reaction will

:03:40.:03:45.

we expect from it? I spoke to a Labour candidate in the North West

:03:46.:03:51.

who described these remarks as horrible. The candidate said "This

:03:52.:03:56.

is the wrong moment to politicise these events." I spoke to another

:03:57.:04:02.

member of the party who is not a fan of Corbyn and this person said,

:04:03.:04:06.

"There is some truth in what Jeremy Corbyn is saying." Just before we

:04:07.:04:14.

move on their is a new poll out tonight. I understand this was taken

:04:15.:04:19.

before the events on Monday night but what figures is it coming out

:04:20.:04:23.

with? It isn't long ago that the Conservatives were 15, 18, 20 points

:04:24.:04:28.

ahead in the polls. In a YouGov poll in the Times tomorrow, the lead of

:04:29.:04:34.

the Conservatives is just five points. What you look with is a

:04:35.:04:40.

pattern in the polls and recently they have tightened, but not as

:04:41.:04:43.

dramatically as this, so what you'll be looking for, is there a pattern

:04:44.:04:50.

in other polls? Why is this happening? It seems that the

:04:51.:04:54.

Conservative manifesto launch didn't go off well, they did a U-turn on a

:04:55.:04:58.

big pledge on social care. YouGov had some polling that showed that

:04:59.:05:01.

when you asked people what they thought of the main policies of the

:05:02.:05:08.

parties, the main one is identified on the Labour Party were positive,

:05:09.:05:11.

scrapping university tuition fees and more money for the NHS. The

:05:12.:05:16.

Conservative main policies identified were negative and

:05:17.:05:20.

controversial ones, social care and scrapping free school meals. Thanks.

:05:21.:05:26.

Campaigning for the general election was put on pause this week.

:05:27.:05:29.

Today, Ukip launched their manifesto saying it was time

:05:30.:05:31.

for daily life to resume or it would spell victory

:05:32.:05:33.

But how does Manchester get back to normal -

:05:34.:05:40.

and what effect will its tragedy have on people's priorities,

:05:41.:05:42.

I've been out on the streets here with candidates, voters,

:05:43.:05:51.

and a mother whose three children were all at the bombed

:05:52.:05:54.

Three days on from the terror you find a City that is outwardly

:05:55.:06:04.

landing on its feet. Perhaps parents are watching their young that bit

:06:05.:06:09.

more closely. Perhaps you spot armed guards amongst the ice creams. What

:06:10.:06:16.

does normal really look like? When the inconceivable has happened on

:06:17.:06:20.

your doorstep. Will voters think differently about the general

:06:21.:06:23.

election now two weeks today? I don't think so, my mind was made up

:06:24.:06:30.

before. It won't make any difference whatsoever. It won't change my mind,

:06:31.:06:35.

everything stays the same, Manchester will get back up and get

:06:36.:06:40.

together. The pause in campaigning has been recognised by all parties

:06:41.:06:45.

as the appropriate thing to do. And yet arguably it presents more of a

:06:46.:06:47.

problem for the parties of opposition. The Conservative

:06:48.:06:52.

candidate for Maidenhead also happens to be the PM and at a time

:06:53.:06:56.

of national crisis the party of government is the one that assumes

:06:57.:06:59.

the role of leadership, the one that looks to be in control. Ukip broke

:07:00.:07:06.

with the pact today, back on the campaign with their manifesto launch

:07:07.:07:09.

and their candidate is unrepentant. The issues regarding radical Islam.

:07:10.:07:16.

Ukip are the only people willing to talk about it, the only people with

:07:17.:07:20.

the courage to raise these issues, to discuss them in public and find a

:07:21.:07:26.

way to improve the situation. A local fire crew are housed in the

:07:27.:07:29.

Labour HQ of Manchester here and their local MP said that he won't be

:07:30.:07:36.

campaigning until Monday. Have you thought of the words you're going to

:07:37.:07:40.

use and how you're going to formulate it, is it going to make

:07:41.:07:45.

reference to what happened? I have a very adversarial approach to

:07:46.:07:49.

politics and that is inevitable in our system. At a time when

:07:50.:07:53.

Manchester has come together and been at United it is difficult to

:07:54.:07:57.

resume the adversarial approach. But that's part of our politics so what

:07:58.:08:03.

we want to do is to resume the campaigning in a positive sense, a

:08:04.:08:06.

positive manner and hope we don't get the kind of slanging matches we

:08:07.:08:13.

unfortunately have as part of our natural politics. You don't have to

:08:14.:08:18.

go far in this neighbourhood to find those who rubbed shoulders with

:08:19.:08:22.

tragedy on Monday night. All three of this lady's children were at the

:08:23.:08:27.

concert when the bomb hit. But for a chest infection she explains she

:08:28.:08:30.

would have been in the foyer to pick-up her girls. I would have been

:08:31.:08:35.

waiting for them with the parents and that is a terrifying thought.

:08:36.:08:41.

You know, it is just circumstances, I wasn't there and they were and

:08:42.:08:46.

thank God my children were saved, my children came home safe to me. Many

:08:47.:08:50.

other children didn't go home to their parents and it is

:08:51.:08:53.

heartbreaking to think of that. As it was her 26-year-old son

:08:54.:08:57.

shepherded his younger sisters safely towards the exit, a hero in

:08:58.:09:07.

her eyes. INAUDIBLE Is that what you think? Yes, I am so

:09:08.:09:13.

grateful. It could have been the last one. So has it changed her

:09:14.:09:22.

focus as a voter? The security of the country wasn't really a top

:09:23.:09:26.

priority for me in the past. This is a very secure country, Britain is

:09:27.:09:29.

one of the safest countries in the world, especially Manchester. I

:09:30.:09:34.

would never imagine a bomb in Manchester, not at a big venue,

:09:35.:09:41.

anywhere in this country. Now, security, national security is a

:09:42.:09:44.

main issue for me. I can't believe that Isis has come to the streets of

:09:45.:09:51.

Manchester. The Lib Dems talk about time lost over the last few days.

:09:52.:09:57.

There are headquarters is a hive of activity. The people here are young

:09:58.:10:02.

but I wonder if the party of civil liberties finds itself at odds with

:10:03.:10:07.

the national mood? I think civil liberties are a very important issue

:10:08.:10:12.

for a lot of people. I would hope that no political party would try

:10:13.:10:15.

and get some political advantage out of a tragedy like the terrorist

:10:16.:10:21.

incident in Manchester but actually, it focuses people's minds on the

:10:22.:10:25.

important issues and I think people in this part of Manchester believe

:10:26.:10:31.

that civil liberties are important. A minute's silence at 11 marking a

:10:32.:10:39.

moment to member the dead. -- to remember the dead.

:10:40.:10:42.

APPLAUSE It ended in applause, releasing a

:10:43.:10:52.

kind of permission for the living to carry on with their lives. Will the

:10:53.:10:57.

voters want to hear the Manchester tragedy reflected in the campaigning

:10:58.:11:02.

of politicians? Campaigning resumes tomorrow and it may be much clearer

:11:03.:11:08.

then. We tried to talk to the Conservatives. They weren't

:11:09.:11:09.

available. And there are full lists

:11:10.:11:12.

of all of the candidates standing in Greater Manchester's

:11:13.:11:15.

constituencies on the BBC's website. And that's it from me

:11:16.:11:16.

from St Ann's Square tonight. More on how the police investigation

:11:17.:11:19.

is unfolding later - but for now back to Kirsty

:11:20.:11:21.

in the studio. We'll hear more about

:11:22.:11:23.

the investigation into the suspected But first, we heard earlier how

:11:24.:11:27.

Jeremy Corbyn is planning to hit the issues raised by the attack

:11:28.:11:33.

head-on when he returns to We asked to speak to somebody from

:11:34.:11:42.

the Labour campaign but nobody was available.

:11:43.:11:43.

Well, Charles Clarke was Home Secretary at the time

:11:44.:11:45.

of the 7/7 bombings and is with me now.

:11:46.:11:48.

Thank you for joining us. With evening. We will come onto how more

:11:49.:11:56.

broadly we will combat terrorism but let's deal first of all with Jeremy

:11:57.:11:59.

Corbyn returning to the fray tomorrow morning. You heard the

:12:00.:12:03.

Labour candidate in Manchester saying he finds it difficult to see

:12:04.:12:08.

how they will be an adversarial approach. This is adversarial but

:12:09.:12:13.

Jeremy Corbyn feels that the war on terrorism working. Is he right? I

:12:14.:12:18.

don't think he is right, I haven't taken his advice on security matters

:12:19.:12:23.

in some decades and I don't take his remarks tomorrow, if correctly

:12:24.:12:29.

reported. They are wrong. These attacks have come from forces that

:12:30.:12:32.

are about trying to destroy the whole of our society, before the

:12:33.:12:38.

Iraq war and the wars in Syria. It is about the eliminating the right

:12:39.:12:46.

of young people to go to the event like we had in Manchester, removing

:12:47.:12:50.

a programme like that, it is about creating a caliphate. In an excerpt

:12:51.:12:55.

from the speech he is going to make he will say that we will do... That

:12:56.:13:02.

many experts have pointed to the connection between wars our

:13:03.:13:05.

government has supported or fought in other countries and terrorism at

:13:06.:13:09.

home. I mean, some people would suggest... I wonder if it is

:13:10.:13:17.

trivial, it is true that there are networks, before July seven, maybe

:13:18.:13:21.

there is some link with what is going on in Syria and the individual

:13:22.:13:26.

who has committed this atrocity in Manchester but that isn't the motive

:13:27.:13:31.

force. The motive force is about the destruction of the core elements of

:13:32.:13:34.

our society and that isn't something that's about foreign policy.

:13:35.:13:37.

Something in Syria, something in Iraq. It is about a totally opposed

:13:38.:13:43.

vision of what society should be. Of course he has opposed foreign

:13:44.:13:48.

conflicts which suggests a Labour government would not support

:13:49.:13:51.

intervention in Syria, intervention in Libya. You'd have to ask him on

:13:52.:13:57.

that question. It's been a massive issue of discussion in the Labour

:13:58.:14:01.

Party and much more widely. There are a set of issues about the right

:14:02.:14:04.

circumstances in which support should take place but you must

:14:05.:14:09.

acknowledge in this difficult debate that not getting involved has

:14:10.:14:11.

consequences just as much as getting involved. Do you think, given what

:14:12.:14:19.

he may say tomorrow, that he is prime ministerial material? I have

:14:20.:14:23.

never thought that but he is the Labour Party leader, I will be

:14:24.:14:26.

voting and I hope that Labour does well because we don't want a Theresa

:14:27.:14:31.

May government with a barren field in front of them. I can't save with

:14:32.:14:36.

integrity that I believe Jeremy Corbyn is Prime Minister material.

:14:37.:14:41.

Moving on and moving back to the time of 7/7, you were the Hutton

:14:42.:14:46.

Secretary. Just before then you had started to introduce a number of

:14:47.:14:50.

anti-terrorist is, one of which was ID cards which went to Royal assent

:14:51.:14:55.

-- you were the Home Secretary. Then in 2010 Theresa May overturned that.

:14:56.:15:02.

It was her first act. Do you believe that if we had ID cards now, we

:15:03.:15:04.

would be in a different position? You can't say if only that hadn't

:15:05.:15:14.

been done this bomber wouldn't have succeeded. It is easier to create a

:15:15.:15:18.

climate for the terrorist organisations to work. ID cards are

:15:19.:15:21.

one of those things. A good control order regime that Theresa May also

:15:22.:15:25.

abolished when she came in is one of those things. A good community

:15:26.:15:28.

policing system with police and community support officer properly

:15:29.:15:32.

funded is another. You have to do all of those things but you can't

:15:33.:15:36.

say, if only we'd had ID cards, then this attack wouldn't have happened.

:15:37.:15:41.

If we look at this particular Salman Abedi case, there seems to be some

:15:42.:15:46.

suggestion that security services over time have missed chances to

:15:47.:15:51.

actually home in on him. Do we have to accept that is the nature of our

:15:52.:15:56.

anti-terrorist police in? That some will get through the net? That's the

:15:57.:16:02.

risk, that's why we've got the security levels we have at the

:16:03.:16:06.

moment. You can't ignore resources for our security services. They have

:16:07.:16:12.

to look at thousands of people who might be risks. They have to make

:16:13.:16:16.

judgments about where to prioritise. The overall background is the

:16:17.:16:20.

resources situation. I know Labour has said there have been police cuts

:16:21.:16:23.

but if you take somebody like Andy Burnham speaking from the Manchester

:16:24.:16:27.

perspective, what he would say and has said is its disproportionate

:16:28.:16:31.

now, the police on London streets and the streets of other cities to

:16:32.:16:35.

the United Kingdom. Also I was wondering if you think the style of

:16:36.:16:41.

policing we need to move far more to intelligence led policing?

:16:42.:16:44.

Completely, but the core is intelligence led policing. Our

:16:45.:16:47.

structure of 43 police forces in Britain is not well equipped to deal

:16:48.:16:51.

with it, we tried to change that and didn't succeed. You haven't got

:16:52.:16:55.

enough resources in places like greater Manchester and other forces

:16:56.:16:57.

throughout the country, they tend to be too concentrated. In the

:16:58.:17:02.

Metropolitan Police. You need them through the country to work out

:17:03.:17:06.

what's going on. I don't criticise MI5 security services in relation to

:17:07.:17:11.

this case. We need to examine why they took the decision they did. I'm

:17:12.:17:14.

sure that analysis is already going ahead. The climate in which we can

:17:15.:17:22.

keep our civil liberties most effectively is the call.

:17:23.:17:23.

More details are emerging tonight about the man who caused

:17:24.:17:26.

carnage in Manchester - and specifically of what may have

:17:27.:17:28.

Newsnight has uncovered details of both Salman Abedi's family life

:17:29.:17:32.

in Libya and of his associates in south Manchester.

:17:33.:17:34.

Our correspondents Gabriel Gatehouse and Richard Watson are both here.

:17:35.:17:41.

First of all, Gabriel what have you found out? They're Martyn strands to

:17:42.:17:49.

this, the Manchester strand which I'll talk about... In Libya we're

:17:50.:17:53.

learning interesting stuff about his background. I've got three sources

:17:54.:17:58.

who say the bomber Salman Abedi and his father, Ramadan, both joined a

:17:59.:18:02.

militia fighting Colonel Gaddafi in 2011. Salman would have been 16 at

:18:03.:18:11.

the time. I've got two sources, one is a school friend from Manchester,

:18:12.:18:14.

the other from Libya. He said because of his age is not sure how

:18:15.:18:18.

much front line fighting he did, but he knows he came before Tripoli

:18:19.:18:22.

fell, then met him in Tripoli. With the mood of elation, that's where

:18:23.:18:28.

they met. At 16 he would have disappeared from school for a period

:18:29.:18:32.

of time. If school friend said, like many other time, they went in the

:18:33.:18:36.

School holidays, in summer, they finished school, broke up, went to

:18:37.:18:41.

Libya. Bit of context. It was not unusual for British Libyans, even

:18:42.:18:45.

young British Libyans, I met some of them out there myself, to go out and

:18:46.:18:49.

fight. 16 is on the low end. What do we know about the militia with whom

:18:50.:18:53.

was fighting? One of the sources I was speaking to said he believed it

:18:54.:19:03.

was the military Council, led by a former member of the Libyan Islamic

:19:04.:19:09.

Fighting Group, LIFG, who fought in Afghanistan alongside Al-Qaeda in

:19:10.:19:14.

the 1990s and was banned under the terrorism act in the UK under 2005.

:19:15.:19:18.

Paradoxically before that some of their members had been given asylum

:19:19.:19:25.

in the UK. There were multiple suggestions from sources in

:19:26.:19:29.

Manchester and in Libya that the bomber's father, Ramadan, was on the

:19:30.:19:35.

periphery of this group. Perhaps not a full member, but someone I've

:19:36.:19:38.

spoken to has said he was associating with some of these

:19:39.:19:43.

ex-movie-macro fighters when they came back from Afghanistan and

:19:44.:19:46.

staying in Manchester. Again, there is no suggestion here that is

:19:47.:19:52.

necessary illegal, but it gives you an indication of the kind of media

:19:53.:19:59.

that Salman Abedi was growing up in. -- the kind of atmosphere. You have

:20:00.:20:07.

some information on IS recruiters in Britain. And Abedi's links. Salman

:20:08.:20:20.

Abedi lived just ten minutes from the Hostey family. He was one of the

:20:21.:20:28.

most prolific recruiters for Islamic State we've seen, Raphael Hostey.

:20:29.:20:33.

Thought to have been killed in a drone strike last year. There is no

:20:34.:20:36.

direct link but I've been speaking to researchers from the

:20:37.:20:41.

International Centre for the study of radicalisation, and what they

:20:42.:20:44.

say, they've come to their database of jihad communication is, and found

:20:45.:20:52.

an interesting link. They found that Hostey's brother in Lancashire was

:20:53.:20:55.

in contact with the Manchester bomber's brother, so there is a

:20:56.:21:02.

family link. What do you know about Abedi's operations in South

:21:03.:21:07.

Manchester? We know they prayed at Didsbury mosque. Speaking to a

:21:08.:21:10.

source of mine about that, he said he knew the Manchester bomber when

:21:11.:21:14.

he was a 12-year-old boy. His father took him to the mosque to pray.

:21:15.:21:20.

Crucially, he said his nephew, the nephew of my source, dead even as an

:21:21.:21:28.

old teenager he was developing supremacist and isolationist views,

:21:29.:21:33.

aggressive against Shia Muslims, a classic sign of extremism. He was

:21:34.:21:38.

critical of the environment he was in. He claimed he was already on the

:21:39.:21:45.

road to becoming a supremacist isolationist, extremist if you like

:21:46.:21:46.

in those terms, in those days. There were more raids and more

:21:47.:21:50.

arrests in Manchester today as the police continue

:21:51.:21:52.

their investigation John Sweeney spent the day

:21:53.:21:53.

in the city and has this report. A possible suspicious

:21:54.:22:02.

package found at a local college, not

:22:03.:22:04.

far from Old Trafford. The bomb squad have been called in,

:22:05.:22:11.

they've investigated, It's wrong to say this city

:22:12.:22:13.

is gripped with fear. The authorities believe that Abedi

:22:14.:22:19.

was a mule, not the bomb maker. Today, Greater Manchester

:22:20.:22:28.

Police sounded upbeat. I want to reassure people

:22:29.:22:32.

that the arrests that we have And initial searches

:22:33.:22:39.

of premises have revealed items that we believe are very

:22:40.:22:42.

important to the investigation. But they don't appear

:22:43.:22:45.

to have found the Overnight and through today,

:22:46.:22:47.

more raids and more arrests across Greater Manchester,

:22:48.:23:00.

bringing the total number The woman arrested

:23:01.:23:01.

yesterday has been released As well as the search

:23:02.:23:05.

for Abedi's accomplices in the bombing, there is

:23:06.:23:10.

the hunt for the people who radicalised him

:23:11.:23:13.

in Who turned an ordinary

:23:14.:23:14.

Manchester lad into a mass In 2014, twins Zahra

:23:15.:23:18.

and Salma Halane left their homes in Manchester to become

:23:19.:23:27.

Islamic State brides in Syria. Their father, who tried

:23:28.:23:31.

to rescue them from Isis, worshipped here, at the mosque

:23:32.:23:36.

in South Manchester. Newsnight can reveal that

:23:37.:23:39.

Salman Abedi also used I tried to ask the men leaving

:23:40.:23:41.

afternoon prayers whether We try to talk to the

:23:42.:23:46.

Imam of this mosque. We did talk to an

:23:47.:23:49.

official of camera. I showed him a picture

:23:50.:23:58.

of Salman Abedi. He said he didn't recognise

:23:59.:24:00.

him, and that went for all of the worshippers we spoke

:24:01.:24:02.

to, they didn't know who he was, He said he'd been to the mosque

:24:03.:24:06.

on several occasions. That does not, of course,

:24:07.:24:11.

mean that anyone at the Our source, who didn't

:24:12.:24:14.

want to be filmed, told Newsnight that it

:24:15.:24:23.

unbelievable that Abedi was the bomber and question the evidence

:24:24.:24:25.

No such doubt at another mosque in South Manchester,

:24:26.:24:35.

The whole community is shocked, the whole

:24:36.:24:39.

Muslim community is in shock about it.

:24:40.:24:41.

Earlier this year the chairman of the mosque had a row with Abedi

:24:42.:24:45.

I told him he should not be having his shoes on,

:24:46.:24:53.

So that time he said, don't treat me like a child.

:24:54.:24:58.

So I said, you're a child, because if you weren't, you

:24:59.:25:00.

wouldn't behave in this manner, you would have taken your shoes off.

:25:01.:25:03.

And have respect, you know, for the mosque.

:25:04.:25:07.

So he was angry about that. So I asked Tim, can you take your shoes

:25:08.:25:14.

off? And he did. After that, I said can you please leave now. And he

:25:15.:25:21.

went. There is a third mosque that Abedi attended, in a Didsbury.

:25:22.:25:25.

Yesterday mosque officials gave a press conference denouncing the

:25:26.:25:29.

atrocity. Today a spokesman for the mosque told Newsnight that two years

:25:30.:25:33.

ago they gave the names of three worshippers who they feared were

:25:34.:25:39.

extremists. One of them Abedi. To the police. But they took no action.

:25:40.:25:43.

The three, the spokesman said, are now under arrest. The man in the

:25:44.:25:50.

striped shirt is the Imam of the Didsbury mosque. Here he is in the

:25:51.:25:56.

Arab Spring in 2011 in military fatigues with a group of fighters

:25:57.:26:00.

preparing to take on Colonel Gaddafi's forces. Newsnight asked

:26:01.:26:05.

the Didsbury mosque whether the Imam had been a fighter. Their spokesman

:26:06.:26:12.

did not get back to us. Two's purpose in planting his bomb was to

:26:13.:26:16.

make Manchester disunited. He's failed in that, but the spotlight

:26:17.:26:20.

remains on the authorities, who may not have listened hard enough to

:26:21.:26:26.

some of the Muslim community. And some people who knew Abedi and

:26:27.:26:27.

perhaps kept it quiet. What can the government do about

:26:28.:26:38.

people seem to be Abu seem to be attracted to violent extremism but

:26:39.:26:42.

haven't broken any laws? Chris Cook explained how government policy to

:26:43.:26:47.

counter radicalisation, called prevent, is designed to work.

:26:48.:26:49.

Can we stop this from happening again?

:26:50.:26:51.

That's one of the biggest questions that will haunt

:26:52.:26:53.

government in the wake of the Manchester terror attack.

:26:54.:26:55.

Can we improve our counterterror efforts?

:26:56.:26:57.

The government's counterterror strategy,

:26:58.:26:58.

They're called Pursue, which is capturing terrorists.

:26:59.:27:07.

Protect, which is defending ourselves.

:27:08.:27:08.

Prepare, which is getting ready for attacks.

:27:09.:27:10.

And the one where all the controversy is, prevent.

:27:11.:27:16.

Stop people from becoming terrorists or supporting violent extremism.

:27:17.:27:18.

Britain's first-ever national security adviser explains

:27:19.:27:19.

As it has evolved, it's become a programme to make sure that

:27:20.:27:28.

all those working in the public services, local authorities,

:27:29.:27:30.

or in education, churches and mosques, have been trained

:27:31.:27:33.

to spot signs of radicalisation among vulnerable

:27:34.:27:34.

And then they can refer people who they think may be at risk

:27:35.:27:44.

to a programme called Channel, or people can come forward

:27:45.:27:54.

into the Channel programme themselves, and that is a separate

:27:55.:27:57.

programme, which is a tailored package of support and help to

:27:58.:27:59.

people who might be in danger of being drawn into radicalisation

:28:00.:28:02.

According to the Home Office's last annual report, there were several

:28:03.:28:08.

Around 15% of these were linked to far right extremism

:28:09.:28:12.

and around 70% linked to Islamist related extremism.

:28:13.:28:15.

But one of the problems with the Prevent programme

:28:16.:28:17.

from the outset, frankly, has been that because it comes

:28:18.:28:19.

from the government, because it's delivered through local

:28:20.:28:21.

authorities, it can look like the voice of authority.

:28:22.:28:24.

And for a number of vulnerable young people, they are

:28:25.:28:27.

The statutory guidance is mindful of this problem.

:28:28.:28:32.

The Prevent programme must not involve any covert activity

:28:33.:28:35.

But as the mayor of Greater Manchester told

:28:36.:28:47.

Newsnight yesterday, Prevent has a major

:28:48.:28:48.

Like with Northern Ireland in the 1970s and 80s,

:28:49.:28:52.

some of the policies can lead to a whole cloud of suspicion

:28:53.:28:54.

Or that's how that community can feel.

:28:55.:28:58.

And Prevent has begun to be seen in that way by some

:28:59.:29:01.

It's probably not a policy that can stand still.

:29:02.:29:07.

I do think we've got to keep refreshing the programme,

:29:08.:29:10.

because fashions change, there's more radicalisation

:29:11.:29:12.

Are we doing enough to tackle incitement

:29:13.:29:16.

And as a new generation comes forward, are we working

:29:17.:29:25.

through the role models they look to?

:29:26.:29:27.

The footballers, rappers, I don't know...

:29:28.:29:29.

The stakes in counter extremism work very high.

:29:30.:29:36.

But selling peaceful democracy to violent extremists is very tough,

:29:37.:29:39.

especially when it's the state doing the selling.

:29:40.:29:47.

Amina Lone is co director of the Social Action and

:29:48.:29:51.

Research Foundation, a think tank that works with marginalised

:29:52.:29:53.

groups, and a Labour Councillor in Manchester.

:29:54.:29:55.

Cerie Bullivant is a spokesperson for Cage, an advocacy organisation

:29:56.:30:00.

which works to 'empower communities impacted by the War on Terror'

:30:01.:30:03.

and which has been one of the most outspoken opponents of the Prevent

:30:04.:30:06.

Amina, you're from Manchester. I wonder what people are asking you

:30:07.:30:21.

about in Manchester? How this could have happened? Firstly I passed my

:30:22.:30:26.

deepest condolences to the families who suffered on Monday. People are

:30:27.:30:31.

in shock, they are scared across the board, people are scared about

:30:32.:30:34.

repercussions but also about reactions as well. There is a fear

:30:35.:30:41.

that we may have more tax. What is the right approach going forward,

:30:42.:30:46.

what do we do? These are innocent children, not people who were on the

:30:47.:30:51.

front line. They were at a pop concert, and make age of innocence,

:30:52.:30:59.

if you target young children...? The area that you working involves

:31:00.:31:03.

Prevent, do you think it works? I think it does work. Like any

:31:04.:31:09.

government policy it has its flaws and implementation is tricky but it

:31:10.:31:12.

has been continuously looked at and we are doing phenomenal work in

:31:13.:31:17.

Manchester, Birmingham and the West Midlands. Do you think, in your

:31:18.:31:23.

experience, people trust Prevent? Overwhelmingly I think people do who

:31:24.:31:29.

are ordinary Muslims. I think there is a propaganda machine that is very

:31:30.:31:35.

vocal who are very anti-Prevent for different reasons and that gets a

:31:36.:31:38.

lot of traction and that is problematic because when I talk

:31:39.:31:42.

about the amenity groups getting funding to visit mosques, to go to

:31:43.:31:48.

temples and churches, how can that be seen... To talk about cohesion,

:31:49.:31:55.

that is positive. Prevent is about safeguarding and preventing people

:31:56.:31:59.

at risk of radicalisation. How can that be a negative thing? Cerie, if

:32:00.:32:05.

you knew someone come if you had evidence that somebody was being

:32:06.:32:08.

radicalised, would you go to Prevent? I don't think Prevent is

:32:09.:32:13.

the right vehicle for doing it. So you wouldn't do that? Just a Biglia,

:32:14.:32:20.

if you had evidence that a young person was in danger of

:32:21.:32:23.

radicalisation and pursuing that route, you wouldn't go to Prevent?

:32:24.:32:28.

What we must do is look at opening up the conversation and working on

:32:29.:32:35.

community-based approaches to de-radicalised these people and stop

:32:36.:32:40.

them getting into this. So if you knew a young person, a teenager

:32:41.:32:43.

perhaps who was being radicalised and was in danger of going abroad,

:32:44.:32:48.

or doing something here, to whom would you report them? If they were

:32:49.:32:53.

going to do a criminal act, you have to go to the police. But if they

:32:54.:32:58.

were in danger of being radicalised? If there was an issue with ideas

:32:59.:33:01.

like this, they need to be taken into the community and dealt with.

:33:02.:33:07.

But I'm not clear what you mean by being taken into the community. The

:33:08.:33:12.

elders of the community, by the Imam, by the people who have a solid

:33:13.:33:16.

and trusted understanding of the religion. I've got an issue with

:33:17.:33:25.

that because it is the community who are implementing it, it is a

:33:26.:33:29.

community group, 460 mosques work with Prevent. You are suggesting

:33:30.:33:33.

that the community is not part of York amenity, that they Amina

:33:34.:33:38.

community is not part of York amenity and you feel alien dated

:33:39.:33:43.

from it. I'm not saying that, Amina and I are part of the same community

:33:44.:33:48.

and we are part of the British community which is in mourning and

:33:49.:33:53.

shock at the moment. We're not at different ends the spectrum here.

:33:54.:33:57.

But you don't believe in Prevent? Prevent is based on pseudoscience

:33:58.:34:04.

and even the people who created it say that it is not fit for purpose,

:34:05.:34:14.

the pseudoscience. I wonder, is your response, because if Cerie is active

:34:15.:34:19.

in the community and suggesting to vulnerable people that Prevent

:34:20.:34:24.

doesn't work? I think there is an issue, about a narrative and the

:34:25.:34:27.

agenda being framed but a responsibility. Prevent is trying to

:34:28.:34:33.

safeguard young people at risk of being radicalised by people in ices

:34:34.:34:37.

who want young people to blow themselves up in arenas like they

:34:38.:34:40.

did on Monday, that's what we're fighting and it is a disservice to

:34:41.:34:45.

say Prevent isn't working. Is there an issue of denial among some

:34:46.:34:52.

Muslims? Absolutely. The UN special reporter said that Prevent puts us

:34:53.:34:58.

at risk of stigmatisation and disenfranchisement. Can I just say,

:34:59.:35:03.

Prevent hasn't stopped 150 vulnerable teenagers going to fight

:35:04.:35:09.

jihad. Isn't that a great thing? It is a great thing that people are not

:35:10.:35:13.

going but that could be applied under the old systems we had. That

:35:14.:35:21.

could be done under safeguards. I think there is an issue of denial in

:35:22.:35:26.

the community and it is understandable because people feel

:35:27.:35:31.

under threat. Most Muslims come up to 3 million in this country,

:35:32.:35:34.

ordinary Muslims, get on with their life, they live, they work and they

:35:35.:35:38.

play but people are scared of speaking out because they think they

:35:39.:35:42.

are going to be vilified, especially women art vilified for speaking out

:35:43.:35:45.

about the problems, and there are significant issues. What you're

:35:46.:35:50.

suggesting for women is that women who speak out, people who have been

:35:51.:35:53.

known to speak out our vilified by people like you. We don't vilify

:35:54.:35:58.

anybody and we never have. We speak in the community and things that

:35:59.:36:03.

have occurred. I have been a victim, accused of pre-crime, the realm that

:36:04.:36:10.

Prevent deals in, leading to two years of my life under house arrest,

:36:11.:36:16.

with no evidence being shown. Do you think that imams should absolutely,

:36:17.:36:21.

categorically be charged with de-radicalisation? All of our Imam

:36:22.:36:26.

and I think Amina would agree with me, all of our Imam 's around the

:36:27.:36:32.

country speak out against violence... I would disagree, I

:36:33.:36:37.

don't think it is all of them. There is an issue with mosques and

:36:38.:36:40.

language, people don't necessarily speaking this, there is an issue

:36:41.:36:45.

with space not being provided for women and I think it is fair to say

:36:46.:36:49.

that we have some problems and that we must work together because these

:36:50.:36:53.

people are our enemy. We were talking during a film about the

:36:54.:36:56.

possibility that Prevent should be looked at again and so forth. Would

:36:57.:37:01.

you like to see an independent ombudsman looking at the work of

:37:02.:37:06.

Prevent and critiquing it? There's no harm in having the independent

:37:07.:37:10.

review, I think we should have more transparency but I think we should

:37:11.:37:13.

showcase the positive work that is done. It has done phenomenal work

:37:14.:37:18.

around the country and we have a responsibility, myself and the other

:37:19.:37:22.

practitioners, Muslim and non-Muslim, this is about people who

:37:23.:37:27.

hate us and our way of life and we must stand up and say that you don't

:37:28.:37:31.

represent us. You talked about the community sorting this. What is your

:37:32.:37:36.

specific proposal if it isn't Prevent, what is the specific thing

:37:37.:37:42.

you should do? Prevent is based on pseudoscience. You have said that,

:37:43.:37:47.

what should be done? We must stop clogging up the system with over

:37:48.:37:54.

7500 referrals a year, most of which are duds. This man was referred to

:37:55.:38:05.

the police over five times and was missed, not picked up, because so

:38:06.:38:10.

many people are being referred. You have given 500,000 public servants a

:38:11.:38:15.

hammer and all they can see is nails. I must both there. Thank you

:38:16.:38:17.

for joining us. The front pages, the Daily

:38:18.:38:24.

Telegraph, Corbyn, wars to blame for terror. The Sun newspaper, inside

:38:25.:38:29.

the bomb factory, their front page. , planning for a year. Tory lead cut

:38:30.:38:37.

to five points as Corbyn closes in on Theresa May.

:38:38.:38:40.

Today, across Britain, a minute's silence was observed

:38:41.:38:44.

to honour those who lost their lives or were injured in Monday's attack.

:38:45.:38:47.

Thank you. APPLAUSE

:38:48.:39:49.

It has been the hottest day of the year so far, 28 degrees on Thursday

:39:50.:39:56.

and we will probe the

:39:57.:39:57.

With Emily Maitlis. The aftermath of the Manchester bombing and Jeremy Corbyn's foreign policy speech. Plus did the bomber fight in Libya's civil war and is the Prevent strategy working?


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