Browse content similar to 15/06/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Who were they? Almost two days later we don't know the basic thing. What | :00:10. | :00:37. | |
we do now is it will be more than the 17 officially counted. He tried | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
to call his family back home in Syria. He said, the fire has reached | :00:42. | :00:51. | |
me now. I am going to die. Tell my mum and my father, I love them. | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
How was this building made into a literal death trap? | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
How many more buildings like it are out there? | :00:58. | :01:04. | |
The explosion might have happened at one o'clock, | :01:05. | :01:06. | |
So in half an hour, 13 floors already on fire. | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
There's to be a public inquiry, so we may not have proper answers | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
How many different safety concerns have been bubbling under | :01:16. | :01:18. | |
Group upon group have been lining up to tell the government | :01:19. | :01:24. | |
that they need to make a review of building regulations and we've | :01:25. | :01:26. | |
seen building regulations ministers time and time again saying, | :01:27. | :01:29. | |
And the Prime Minister comes without cameras in tow but only | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
Is this, like Hurricane Katrina, becoming a defining | :01:35. | :01:44. | |
We'll ask the leader of Kensington and Chelsea council. | :01:45. | :01:57. | |
To those of us who have not experienced the trauma | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
that the residents and families of Grenfell Towers are suffering, | :02:02. | :02:04. | |
their loss in unimaginable but we sense their rising anger | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
that they were dealt a dreadful hand. | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
They lived in a building which was quite simply, not safe. | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
Repeated pleas by residents and warnings that something awful | :02:15. | :02:16. | |
The burning building now charred against the blue sky, | :02:17. | :02:22. | |
may come to symbolise the moment there was a shift in society, | :02:23. | :02:25. | |
There are so many who have lost loved ones and seen things | :02:26. | :02:33. | |
no-one should ever see, others who have survived | :02:34. | :02:34. | |
with life changing injuries, and many who still await news. | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
Let's get a sense of the mood on the ground. | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
Joining us from West London is, Derek Wilson, pastor | :02:42. | :02:44. | |
at the Christian Centre Trust Tabernacle, who has helped | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
Good evening, Derek Wilson. Tonight, so many people are still missing | :02:48. | :03:00. | |
their loved ones. Who is helping them tonight? I think what is | :03:01. | :03:10. | |
happening, reality is beginning to set in. Really, there are no more | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
survivors. At this time, there is a lot of frustration, a lot of anger | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
of what has happens, that could have been prevented. And as you are | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
saying, the realisation for many people that they will have lost | :03:27. | :03:29. | |
members of their family and eagerness to find some information. | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
Information we seem to be getting very, very slowly? Absolutely. It is | :03:35. | :03:50. | |
shocking. What is more shocking is that this industry report that was | :03:51. | :03:57. | |
released two years ago and was the council's notifier. It could have | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
been prevented. It just fell on deaf ears and that is why you are getting | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
the frustration and be anger at this time in the community. Do you think | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
enough is being done by the council. I know there are so many emergency | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
centres that have set up, your own church is one, is enough being done | :04:17. | :04:25. | |
by the council? Well, this is what needs to be answered. There is some | :04:26. | :04:31. | |
tough questions and some tough answers from this enquiry that needs | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
to come out. What I mean tonight, pastor, is there enough council | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
workers on the ground helping, or is it all volunteers? Is the council in | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
control of the situation? Now there is, because where we have our | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
church, the food and clothing are beginning to shift at this time. By | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
tomorrow, I believe everything should be moved out of the buildings | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
to a central place where those who need it, can get access to it. Are | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
all the residents who have been saved from the tower, are they being | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
housed locally, are they being looked after locally? They are still | :05:15. | :05:24. | |
in temporary accommodation. They are in the Westway, the indoor tennis | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
court, they need to be housed as soon as possible. Thank you very | :05:31. | :05:32. | |
much indeed, pastor. Well throughout the day our reporter | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
Katie Razzall has been in the shadow of Grenfell Towers, | :05:37. | :05:39. | |
speaking to people who lost loved ones, and others whose | :05:40. | :05:41. | |
friends and family members are still unaccounted for and also | :05:42. | :05:43. | |
getting a feel for the solidarity Yesterday, in the afternoon, we were | :05:44. | :06:00. | |
accommodated. This is where I live, 571. Until the early hours of | :06:01. | :06:09. | |
Wednesday morning, this man lived in Grenfell Tower. Now his home is a | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
hotel. He is haunted by what he saw that night and the neighbours but | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
could not have survived. Being in the building for this many hours, of | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
course you are not alive. He showed me his videos of the fire. This is | :06:25. | :06:32. | |
when I phoned my mum. I think I phoned my mum at 1:30am. By then it | :06:33. | :06:42. | |
is really on fire. He was leaving the cinema with his sister when his | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
mother called from home to save their block was ablaze. He found her | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
after an agonising wait. I tried to go inside the building to save my | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
mum. I saw a firefighter going in at the same time and he stopped me and | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
said, only people can come out, nobody is allowed in. I said, my mum | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
is in there. I ran and the first person I saw was my mum. I was so | :07:08. | :07:16. | |
happy. Happiness and laughter lasted -- lasted for ten to 20 seconds. | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
People were on the phone talking to their kids, they're why. One man was | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
telling his wife what to do. We told him to put a wet towel over her | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
mouth and her daughter's mouth and get on the floor. To help with the | :07:33. | :07:40. | |
gas, to help with the explosion. Did they get out, do you think? No. | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
Newsnight understands from a firefighter, they knew after 11am | :07:46. | :07:52. | |
yesterday morning they would be unlikely to find any more survivors. | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
It was the worst they had seen in all their years of firefighting. | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
Block of around 600 hundred inhabitants from diverse | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
backgrounds, still smoking today. Most of them were Muslims from | :08:08. | :08:15. | |
Turkey, Somalia, there were English people, black people, black Muslims. | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
What do we know of who lived in Grenfell Tower. This rainy and bone | :08:20. | :08:26. | |
man lived in flat ten on the third floor, a floor below where the fire | :08:27. | :08:33. | |
started. Other survivors include on the ninth sorry, this Moroccan | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
family who fled when one of them smelt smoke and woke up to see | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
flames outside. From the 11th floor, this lady who escaped with her | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
husband and three children when a friend called to tell her of the | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
fire. It is the poor souls who are missing or dead who keep this man | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
awake at night. I cannot close my eyes when I know people died in | :08:57. | :09:03. | |
front of me. You saw it, they do? Yes, I saw people jumping out from | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
the building. Not one or two, many. Couldn't avoid looking at them. | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
Yesterday we heard other family on the 21st floor. A 20-year-old with | :09:14. | :09:19. | |
his parents, brother and sister. There were rumours on social media | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
the family is dead. Officially, they are still missing. This from a | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
friend today. It breaks my heart because social media is going out | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
and things are confirmed. Those messages are going to his family and | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
friends and it is distorting everything. No one in the tower has | :09:40. | :09:46. | |
been confirmed. On the 14th floor lived Syrian brothers. University | :09:47. | :09:53. | |
student Mohammed Alhajali was overwhelmed by smoke while his | :09:54. | :10:00. | |
friends escaped. It was confirmed he perished after a phone call home to | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
Syria. He was terrified, he was scared. He had hoped the emergency | :10:06. | :10:13. | |
services would get to him. Two hours later, he phoned to say the fire has | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
reached me now. I am going to die. Goodbye to my mum and my father, I | :10:18. | :10:24. | |
love them. That was the last message from him. The names and faces of the | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
missing residence of the tower gives a snapshot into a diverse and | :10:30. | :10:35. | |
tight-knit community. This 79-year-old from the Philippines. | :10:36. | :10:38. | |
And this month, was about to win an award for his work as a security | :10:39. | :10:45. | |
guard. The Italians who moved into the 23rd floor three months ago and | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
this five-year-old who was lost in in the chaos of the evacuation. This | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
is a community anxiously waiting for news of loved ones and friends. They | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
were warned today, the police fear they may never identify all of those | :11:01. | :11:01. | |
who have been killed. Well, this has gone beyond a local | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
tragedy and become a event that has touched people | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
across the whole country. And along with that spotlight has | :11:09. | :11:10. | |
come intense scrutiny of whether politicians at a national | :11:11. | :11:12. | |
level have done enough in the past But it was also the tone | :11:13. | :11:15. | |
of the response that drew attention. Theresa May was pictured | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
meeting the leaders of the London Fire Service, | :11:22. | :11:22. | |
while Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn was filmed | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
mingling with local people. Our political editor | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
Nick Watt is here. Nick, how's the political | :11:32. | :11:33. | |
response going down? How has that political response been | :11:34. | :11:44. | |
judge? There is those who say it could provide a defining image of | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
her Premiership. One Tory MP said the Prime Minister is behaving how | :11:49. | :11:57. | |
she behaved in the election. Her limitations are there for everybody | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
to see. When Theresa May visits the scene of a tragedy, she always goes | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
out of her way to ensure she is not a burden on the emergency services. | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
This was a private visit, there were no cameras and there were limited | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
discussions with the emergency service leaders and volunteer | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
leaders, but there was no meeting with the residents. As I understand | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
it, the Prime Minister wanted to hear directly, on the ground what | :12:25. | :12:31. | |
had happened, before deciding what to do. She had been told the fire | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
had spread in a strange, unpredictable and volatile way and | :12:36. | :12:38. | |
when she heard that, she said there are huge questions to be answered | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
and so later on, she announced there will be a judge led public enquiry | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
and she says that will report properly. Thank you very much. | :12:48. | :12:49. | |
Nick Paget-Brown is the Conservative leader of Kensington | :12:50. | :12:51. | |
Good evening. When will you last in Grenfell Tower? I went to the | :12:52. | :13:02. | |
opening of the dale boxing club last summer, just after the end of the | :13:03. | :13:08. | |
refurbishment of the tower. We were delighted, not only had we found | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
more homes in the tower through a judicious conversion of certain | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
rooms, but we got the boxing club, so I went to a happy opening. So not | :13:18. | :13:26. | |
up the tower? In the tower, up a level, then when the refurbishment | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
was completed, we went into a flat further up to look at the new | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
kitchen and heating system and the new windows. At that stage you were | :13:36. | :13:41. | |
aware of concerns about the refurbishment? Some residents were | :13:42. | :13:43. | |
very concerned about the whole concept of the refurbishment. Some | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
residents were pleased it addressed the problems they had with heating, | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
either being hot or cold. We had invested ?10 million to deal with | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
their problems. We will know more about what will go wrong in the | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
public enquiry, there are certain things we can talk about now because | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
this is your area and things will have to move quicker than the public | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
enquiry, one assumes. How many towers in Kensington and Chelsea | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
have similar cladding? As far as we know, there are no other towers | :14:16. | :14:21. | |
without cladding. No other old towers have modern cladding? As far | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
as I am aware no other towers in Kensington and Chelsea have that | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
particular form of cladding. You won't be putting cladding on like | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
that with the same components in the future? No. How many towers do you | :14:36. | :14:41. | |
have without sprinklers? That will vary, according to what the fire | :14:42. | :14:47. | |
inspection requires they have. New towers do have sprinklers, some old | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
towers don't, how many old towers don't? Some of the old towers before | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
the 1970s won't have integral sprinklers. I cannot give you a | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
number. You have not checked up since the fire? We have looked at | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
the London Fire Brigade to check on all the towers and make sure all the | :15:07. | :15:12. | |
safety in all the towers, if they can give is the assurance we need | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
that all of those towers are saved and comply with fire standards and | :15:17. | :15:17. | |
regulations. We will talk about wrinkles in a | :15:18. | :15:27. | |
moment but in the refurbishment, did you consider retrofitting | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
sprinklers? I did not consider that, but what you try to do when you are | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
refurbishing is contain a fire within a particular flat so that the | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
Fire Service can evacuate that flat, deal with the fire. Do you wish now | :15:41. | :15:48. | |
that you had splinters? Because from the black canal house case, in 2013, | :15:49. | :15:55. | |
the coroner wrote to the governor saying that retrofitting of speakers | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
may now be possible at lower costs than had previously been thought. | :16:01. | :16:07. | |
And a report said they reckon that Grenfell Tower could have been | :16:08. | :16:10. | |
retrofitted with sprinklers which would have helped with this fire for | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
?200,000. And we know the residents were talking about the issues of | :16:15. | :16:21. | |
sprinklers. Why was retrofitting sprinklers not considered? Because | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
there was not a collective view that all the flats should be fitted with | :16:25. | :16:27. | |
sprinklers because that would have delayed and made the refurbishment | :16:28. | :16:35. | |
more destructive. Delay would have been less important than having a | :16:36. | :16:38. | |
fire? We're talking retrospectively after the most enormous tragedy. | :16:39. | :16:45. | |
Many residents felt that we needed to get on with the fitting of | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
boilers and heating systems and to retrofit more would delay the | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
building and that sprinklers were not the answer. Do you regret that? | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
I regret anything that we might have done differently that would have | :16:59. | :17:02. | |
avoided the tragedy. But right now, when talking about the response | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
right now, and we know this from residents, they have been put in a | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
local hotel last night, and they were not told until lunchtime | :17:12. | :17:13. | |
whether they would be able to stay there. They were not told whether | :17:14. | :17:16. | |
they would be allowed to have food, and they were told the council would | :17:17. | :17:19. | |
come and they did not come. The truth is that you cannot cope with | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
this. I am being honest and I think that we have coped with it as well | :17:25. | :17:30. | |
as we can after eight tragedy of this dimension. We have host people. | :17:31. | :17:36. | |
But you do not have the council workers to deal with traumatised | :17:37. | :17:39. | |
families. You promised the council would come to see them but you | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
cannot deal with that when people are grief stricken. We have three | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
emergency centres and we have councils... It is about people you | :17:49. | :17:51. | |
are housing and you said you would visit them and nobody has visited. | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
My understanding is that housing officials are and will visit them | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
but there are issues about people... You feel is to look after them once | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
and you are feeling to look after them twice. I hope that we are not, | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
I hope we are fitting them into safe temporary accommodation while we are | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
working out the long-term challenges they face. -- you were feeling to | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
look after them once and you are feeling to look after them once. | :18:19. | :18:24. | |
Theresa May did not meet residents today, because of security concerns. | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
Is that not a dreadful error of judgment? All I can talk to you | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
about is what the local authorities doing to improve the lives of | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
people. She is your conservative leader. Should she have met | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
residents, should she should she not? She did not meet residents | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
because she did not want to interfere with the work of the | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
emergency services. That would not have interfered. I have met people | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
within the emergency centres and I am delighted to welcome anybody, | :18:55. | :18:57. | |
including the Secretary of State, and they will meet residents and | :18:58. | :19:00. | |
here the problem. We have asked the government for help with more | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
housing accommodation. We need to house people permanently, not just | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
temporarily. David Lammy this morning alleged that this was | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
corporate manslaughter. Do you recognise that possibility? I think | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
that is a matter for the enquiry and I will not comment on any of these | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
allegations because I think that would be the wrong thing to do. I | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
understand it and I appreciate it but I think my job is to make sure | :19:27. | :19:31. | |
that the borough, and those people whose lives have been devastated, I | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
need to focus my energies on them and I do not want to be brought into | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
political slanging matches. Let's look at the national picture. | :19:40. | :19:40. | |
Chris Philp is the Conservative MP for Croydon South. | :19:41. | :19:42. | |
Andy Slaughter is Labour's shadow housing minister. | :19:43. | :19:44. | |
His Hammersmith constituency is adjacent to Grenfell Tower. | :19:45. | :19:50. | |
First of all, a lot of high-rises were built under various | :19:51. | :20:02. | |
government's watches. How many decades old buildings do not have | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
sprinkler systems? Many will not have sprinkler systems and the | :20:07. | :20:09. | |
recommendation on retrofitting which we have heard from 2013 has not been | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
implemented. In fact it was rejected. The lack house disaster | :20:14. | :20:22. | |
was on Labour's watch and they did not pursue the recommendation. -- | :20:23. | :20:31. | |
the Lakanal House disaster. It is a political issue. It is. And to | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
correct you on that point, the coroners letters came out in 2013 | :20:36. | :20:44. | |
and they are the ones that were not permitted. I think the issue here is | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
that this is on a completely different scale to any previous | :20:50. | :20:58. | |
fire. So we have a situation where you have in the space of 15 minutes, | :20:59. | :21:05. | |
the fire spreading from one corner of the block to the entire block. | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
But in lots of Labour councils throughout the land there are | :21:10. | :21:12. | |
buildings which have been required. There are also building that do not | :21:13. | :21:18. | |
have Spengler systems. -- buildings which have been reclad. Is there | :21:19. | :21:20. | |
going to be an assessment made to see what problems there might be? | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
The truth of the matter is that if buildings are reclad in materials | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
similar to this, that could be problems. That is the priority | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
question. Many councils like my own, I'm doing the assessment right now | :21:35. | :21:38. | |
and I expect to report tomorrow but this has to be a job for central | :21:39. | :21:42. | |
government. Cannot wait for a public enquiry to make these analyses of | :21:43. | :21:48. | |
whether there are other tower blocks at risk. That has to be our number | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
one priority. Even if their rent any, people will be worried that | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
there are. Thank you. Turning to you, Chris, John and Neil from the | :21:57. | :22:04. | |
Fire Service regulations have said that the relations were resisted | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
because no body was dying in these buildings. Did Grenfell Tower have | :22:10. | :22:17. | |
to happen before people would take action? A meeting was set to occur | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
when the election was called. But four years, four years? 2013 and | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
2017. The truth of the matter is that if something similar had been | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
found in an aircraft, because of cladding that was not suitable or | :22:33. | :22:35. | |
the fact that sprinklers were not fitted, it would be shut down, but | :22:36. | :22:41. | |
the problem is that people who do not have any power lives in these | :22:42. | :22:44. | |
high-rise buildings and nobody listens to them. Going back to the | :22:45. | :22:50. | |
coroners report, one of the recommendations was that the | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
Secretary of State right to social housing providers asking them to | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
consider fitting sprinkler systems and Eric Pickles did that | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
straightaway. Some councils responded immediately. But some | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
wanted the central government to allow them to carry more debt? The | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
building we are looking adhere had a ?10 million refurbishment very | :23:13. | :23:14. | |
recently and I have seen the figures. It would have only cost | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
?200,000 to put in sprinklers, and it was not a question of money, it | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
was a question of priorities. Something extraordinary clearly | :23:26. | :23:27. | |
happened in that building and we need to find out as a matter of | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
urgency exactly what it was. Was at the cladding, the lack of | :23:32. | :23:37. | |
sprinklers, was it something else? Whatever happened in the building, | :23:38. | :23:39. | |
we need to make sure that it never happens again. But as well as that, | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
somebody unusually will have to carry the can. I think is that | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
public enquiry, led by a judge appointed by the Lord Chief Justice, | :23:49. | :23:51. | |
so completely independent and able to call any witness, if they find an | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
individual or corporate body failed in their duty, then clearly | :23:57. | :23:59. | |
prosecutions should follow. But that is something that the public enquiry | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
will have to look at and report upon. What do you think the | :24:04. | :24:06. | |
government should do in the interim? In the interim, it has to do with | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
two things. They have to give reassurance to the hundreds of | :24:11. | :24:16. | |
thousands that lived in tower blocks that they are safe but it also has | :24:17. | :24:19. | |
to give assurances to the people who live around Grenfell Tower, who are | :24:20. | :24:22. | |
justifiably very angry that their concerns have not been listened to. | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
Setting up that enquiry, it has to be open and transparent and people | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
have to be persuaded, as they are not at the moment, that it is going | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
to find the truth and if people are responsible, they must be punished. | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
There will be an early interim report after a couple of months, and | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
if there is any critical failings, like if the cladding is highly | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
flammable, which was suggested, we need to know about that in a matter | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
of weeks. And move people out of the buildings. If other buildings have | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
that dangerous cladding, immediate action will need to be taken in a | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
matter of weeks and months. You are suggesting that if there is similar | :25:01. | :25:03. | |
cladding on other buildings, people should be moved out immediately. If | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
it is flammable, yes. Let's talk about Theresa May. We understand | :25:09. | :25:11. | |
that she did not want to interrupt the work of the emergency services | :25:12. | :25:17. | |
or volunteers, but she chose not to meet residents. It was cited as | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
being for security concerns. People could have met her in private, and | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
it would have been perfectly safe to meet people. Did you think that | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
showed somebody that was showing a compassionate side? I'm not sure if | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
it was just security concerns. I think she was keen not to intrude | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
and cause disruption at a time of anxiety and grief. The people | :25:39. | :25:41. | |
concerned were still searching for loved ones. Is it not important to | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
have the Prime Minister show she cares? She is trying to be practical | :25:46. | :25:49. | |
and talk to the emergency services, to find out what needs to be done | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
rather than grandstanding. I am sure she will meet families but the day | :25:54. | :25:56. | |
after they have lost their loved ones, the last thing you need is the | :25:57. | :26:00. | |
Prime Minister of the country elbowing her way in. To be honest, I | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
have spent a few days down there with Jeremy Corbyn. People did not | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
think he was intruding, they thought he was showing simple human sympathy | :26:09. | :26:11. | |
and kindness. Thank you both very much indeed. | :26:12. | :26:12. | |
The Public Inquiry will take evidence from all manner of experts, | :26:13. | :26:14. | |
contractors, councillors, emergency services, | :26:15. | :26:16. | |
community organisations, politicians and hopefully residents, | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
but it doesn't take a public inquiry to say that a review of building | :26:22. | :26:24. | |
regulations covering fire safety was promised by Theresa May's | :26:25. | :26:26. | |
chief of staff last year but has not been published. | :26:27. | :26:29. | |
The reason for that review was the fatal Lakanal House fire | :26:30. | :26:35. | |
in 2009 a multi-storey block in which six people died. | :26:36. | :26:38. | |
The coroner in the Lakanal House Inquest said that the government | :26:39. | :26:44. | |
should encourage providers of high rise housing to consider | :26:45. | :26:47. | |
retrofitting sprinkler systems - there was none in Grenfell - | :26:48. | :26:50. | |
and there are 4000 tower blocks in the UK that | :26:51. | :26:52. | |
We'll be talking to the lawyer for the Lakanal residents in a second. | :26:53. | :26:58. | |
But first, last night our policy editor Chris Cook reported | :26:59. | :27:00. | |
on details of the material with which Grenfell was cladded. | :27:01. | :27:03. | |
He's been looking more closely at this issue. | :27:04. | :27:05. | |
One of the most important questions to answer quickly is, | :27:06. | :27:24. | |
how many other buildings are at risk from fires | :27:25. | :27:26. | |
of the sort that devastated the Grenfell Tower. | :27:27. | :27:28. | |
Right now, that's a very hard question to answer. | :27:29. | :27:30. | |
To really understand the tragedy that | :27:31. | :27:31. | |
unfolded this week in Kensington, it may help to appreciate a success | :27:32. | :27:34. | |
Back in 2012, there was a major fire on the 17th | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
A pensioner's flat was completely destroyed. | :27:39. | :27:41. | |
It was contained by the walls and floors and the external | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
So the fire brigade were able to get here | :27:46. | :27:54. | |
and stop it from getting into any other flats. | :27:55. | :27:56. | |
A personal tragedy was prevented from becoming a much | :27:57. | :27:58. | |
One explanation for why the fire spread so quickly in | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
the Grenfell Tower was that the fire appears | :28:03. | :28:04. | |
to have spread over the outside of the building | :28:05. | :28:07. | |
That's insulation added to the exterior of the building | :28:08. | :28:13. | |
This broad design of cladding is in wide use. | :28:14. | :28:23. | |
You pin a layer of insulation material to the outside of the | :28:24. | :28:26. | |
Then add a waterproof layer to guard against the weather. | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
It was this outer layer that Newsnight | :28:31. | :28:31. | |
revealed yesterday, was of a design that | :28:32. | :28:33. | |
wasn't as fireproof as it might have been. | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
But experts have also called into question whether there's | :28:40. | :28:41. | |
Not with Grenfell Tower in particular, | :28:42. | :28:43. | |
but with materials being used in general in cladding. | :28:44. | :28:46. | |
The Fire Protection Association has been | :28:47. | :28:48. | |
conducting tests on widely used insulation material, for example. | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
Typically, we will fill a wheelie bin with cardboard, plastic bottles | :28:53. | :28:55. | |
and normal stuff you see in a normal recycling bin. | :28:56. | :28:58. | |
We put it up against the cladding and set fire to it. | :28:59. | :29:04. | |
You get some initial charring, but within a very short space | :29:05. | :29:12. | |
of time, the fire has got into the expanded | :29:13. | :29:14. | |
Theresa May today announced an enquiry. | :29:15. | :29:17. | |
Whether we take enough care to keep such | :29:18. | :29:19. | |
combustible material safely boxed in is one of the questions it | :29:20. | :29:22. | |
I am today ordering a full public enquiry into this disaster. | :29:23. | :29:30. | |
We need to have an explanation of this. | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
We owe that to the families, to the people | :29:35. | :29:36. | |
who have lost loved ones, friends and the homes | :29:37. | :29:38. | |
One of the first questions, though, is how widespread is the | :29:39. | :29:45. | |
sort of arrangement we saw at the Grenfell Tower | :29:46. | :29:47. | |
Where we've seen the widespread insulation of buildings, | :29:48. | :29:54. | |
retrospective insulation of buildings, is generally | :29:55. | :29:55. | |
The insulation materials of choice tend to be combustible or | :29:56. | :30:01. | |
It's very rare that I'm seeing installed in | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
residential accommodation noncombustible insulation material. | :30:07. | :30:09. | |
We may have problems because we are quite slow | :30:10. | :30:12. | |
I'm absolutely amazed that your regulations haven't been looked | :30:13. | :30:23. | |
at for over ten years, as I understand it. | :30:24. | :30:27. | |
With all of the developments happening with | :30:28. | :30:29. | |
materials, we see some of these fires that | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
are occurring around the world, we have lessons that we learn | :30:34. | :30:35. | |
from other countries, new materials that are being developed, | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
A 10-year plus review of regulations, I don't think | :30:40. | :30:47. | |
But there's been resistance in Whitehall to | :30:48. | :30:50. | |
regulation reform and in part, it's because | :30:51. | :30:54. | |
Conversations we've had with officials at DCLG, very recently | :30:55. | :31:07. | |
have pointed out that people aren't dying in these buildings. | :31:08. | :31:10. | |
And so, while no one was dying, it didn't matter? | :31:11. | :31:12. | |
Group upon group have been lining up to | :31:13. | :31:19. | |
tell the government they need to make a review | :31:20. | :31:22. | |
A full explanation of the tragedy will | :31:23. | :31:24. | |
The fire penetrated the building very deeply, so why didn't its | :31:25. | :31:29. | |
internal fire brakes hold the fire back? | :31:30. | :31:31. | |
Do we need sprinklers in more buildings? | :31:32. | :31:33. | |
Sophie Khan acted as lawyer for the residents group | :31:34. | :31:40. | |
of the Lakanal House fire in 2009 in which six people died. | :31:41. | :31:43. | |
Went you saw the fire, it must have brought back all the mammaries? Did, | :31:44. | :31:55. | |
and questions have to be asked that after how a very detailed inquest, | :31:56. | :32:01. | |
and a report to the government, why this could happen again? Is the | :32:02. | :32:09. | |
right way a public enquiry? No, the right way is inquests. The families | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
have a right to participate, they have a right to cross-examine upper | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
questions to the experts and able to get their own experts if the coroner | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
gets permission. The coroner is independent of the government. In a | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
public enquiry, it is very much government lead. And ice right in | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
saying no way, any resident family member take place in a public | :32:33. | :32:38. | |
enquiry? Not in a public enquiry, very limited rules in a public | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
enquiry, it is government-controlled, government | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
outcome. Was this unavoidable? 100%. The sprinklers, even though it | :32:50. | :32:52. | |
wouldn't have said the building, I think it would have said the | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
individuals inside the building. It would have given them time to get | :32:57. | :33:03. | |
out. The building, I I believe, would have perished. Is it your | :33:04. | :33:13. | |
experience that residents Association are not listened to? | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
Yes, but also the fire assessments, we have to look at the fire | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
assessments. Here, there is a fire issue, not just a council we need to | :33:24. | :33:26. | |
look at. What whether Fire Brigade doing? The refurbishments have been | :33:27. | :33:33. | |
done, what tests did they do on the building? But these are questions | :33:34. | :33:38. | |
the residents will not be able to ask in the public enquiry. In your | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
view, is this an intended consequence of the public enquiry or | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
do you think it is worked out a position that if the government goes | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
for a public enquiry and not an inquest, they will be not subject to | :33:53. | :33:58. | |
the same scrutiny? That is correct. In an inquests, they lose control of | :33:59. | :34:04. | |
what a jury verdict will do. And I jury will come out with narrative | :34:05. | :34:08. | |
verdicts which may be difficult for the government... One of the other, | :34:09. | :34:14. | |
you cannot have both? Only one or the other. Would you urge the | :34:15. | :34:22. | |
residents to kick up a fuss? Yes, they should be demanding an inquest | :34:23. | :34:25. | |
from the government to say, this isn't the right way, we don't want a | :34:26. | :34:29. | |
public enquiry, we want an inquest. I am concerned why the Prime | :34:30. | :34:37. | |
Minister came out to say so quickly, public enquiry. What does she know | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
that needs to be heading? Thank you very much. | :34:43. | :34:45. | |
The tragedy of Grenfell Tower has all but blotted out | :34:46. | :34:47. | |
the post election turmoil, delaying any deal negotiations | :34:48. | :34:49. | |
between the tories and the DUP to prop up Theresa May. | :34:50. | :34:52. | |
Nor does the shape of the impending Brexit negotiations, | :34:53. | :34:54. | |
and questions over an all party team punch through the still | :34:55. | :34:56. | |
In fact it's hard to focus on the fact that there was a general | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
election exactly a week ago, but now there are extraordinary | :35:02. | :35:03. | |
details emerging of the way that that election was played, | :35:04. | :35:06. | |
or rather mis-played by Theresa May and her now sacked | :35:07. | :35:08. | |
I'm joined by our political editor Nick Watt. | :35:09. | :35:15. | |
The negotiations between the government and the DUP are still | :35:16. | :35:22. | |
ongoing. Arlene Foster stepped back yesterday after the fire but they | :35:23. | :35:25. | |
are still talking. Downing Street can be confident the confident will | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
support the Queen's Speech and that is why they were able to announce | :35:30. | :35:34. | |
the Queen's Speech will take place next Wednesday. But they are not | :35:35. | :35:40. | |
there on the second part of the deal, support and supply. The | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
Treasury's job is to ask difficult questions. The reason why the reason | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
may is having to talk to a party with just ten MPs because her | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
election gamble failed. I have spent the last few days just trying to | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
work out what exactly happened in that election campaign. | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
She was Britain's new iron Lady who would deliver | :36:04. | :36:05. | |
Threats against Britain have been issued. | :36:06. | :36:12. | |
And tackle deep injustices overlooked by generations | :36:13. | :36:14. | |
And then against the better instincts of this | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
most cautious politician, she took the gamble of her life and failed. | :36:20. | :36:27. | |
Are you stepping down Mrs May? Clearly this was a catastrophe of a | :36:28. | :36:37. | |
campaign. She had given people a choice, told them to choose her and | :36:38. | :36:43. | |
then she had. She wasn't strong and stable. Theresa May has apologised | :36:44. | :36:50. | |
to Tory MPs who believed the Prime Minister and her tiny, and now | :36:51. | :36:55. | |
former circle of advisers to await the selection in the finest | :36:56. | :37:01. | |
tradition, a blame game is underway. Insiders who toiled away here at | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
Tory HQ have identified two fundamental flaws with the campaign. | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
There was no clear line of authority between the main figures. Nick | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
Timothy and Fiona Hill and the Australian polling guru, Sir Lynton | :37:14. | :37:22. | |
Crosby. And then, there was what has been described as complacency. The | :37:23. | :37:27. | |
Number Ten in a circle never feared they would lose this election so | :37:28. | :37:31. | |
they never took Jeremy Corbyn seriously. After a less than | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
friendly welcome, the defining moment of the campaign came in the | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
wake of the manifesto launch. Within days, Theresa May was forced to | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
embark on a hasty U-turn over the electoral pledge, the so-called | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
dementia tax. Newsnight understands the two Cabinet minister is with | :37:51. | :37:53. | |
responsibility for social care, Jeremy Hunt GIB Javad, were only | :37:54. | :38:08. | |
informed of the policy in the 24 hours before the launch of the | :38:09. | :38:10. | |
manifesto. Instead, the social care section drew on initial work from a | :38:11. | :38:12. | |
green paper led by a Cabinet minister who co-authored the | :38:13. | :38:15. | |
manifesto. I have been told other Cabinet ministers were consulted on | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
those parts of the manifesto related to their briefs. But ministers were | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
only given a copy of the whole manifesto, shortly before the launch | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
and about 20 minutes before the media. Even the head of the Prime | :38:28. | :38:33. | |
Minister's policy board wasn't consulted. I wouldn't expect in a | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
snap election, get signed off by Cabinet and goes through a series of | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
negotiations, presumably and discussions. I wouldn't expect to be | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
holding the pen on the last draft. But I didn't see any draft. I think | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
there was a culture in the campaign, we, the five or six of us are going | :38:51. | :38:59. | |
to do this. There was this huge policy on the controversial issue of | :39:00. | :39:04. | |
social care and how to fund it. And obviously fraught with political | :39:05. | :39:08. | |
risk that they don't seem to have checked in research, they don't seem | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
to have squared it with people in the party and it landed like an | :39:13. | :39:18. | |
unexpected bomb right in the Tory heartland. I think people were | :39:19. | :39:21. | |
looking for a middle way. There must be a middle way between the Jeremy | :39:22. | :39:29. | |
Corbyn approach. Here is the cookie jar, help yourself, the rich will | :39:30. | :39:34. | |
pay. And us, we will take your kid's school meals away, which we had to | :39:35. | :39:39. | |
explain, that is not the case. We will take your grandparent's house | :39:40. | :39:44. | |
away, which also wasn't the case. I closed the last page and felt this | :39:45. | :39:48. | |
sinking feeling, the manifesto is supposed to offer hope and a | :39:49. | :39:53. | |
brighter future to people. This does not love the above. It literally | :39:54. | :39:58. | |
tells people, your life is going to be really bad if you vote for this | :39:59. | :40:04. | |
manifesto. Within days of the manifesto launch, and irritated | :40:05. | :40:12. | |
Prime Minister said that a cap would be introduced. Nothing has changed, | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
nothing has changed. This featured in early work of the Green paper but | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
it wasn't in the manifesto because it hadn't been finalised. It turned | :40:22. | :40:31. | |
out voters were so confused they asked Labour to explain the | :40:32. | :40:34. | |
manifesto from the Tories. People were worried about how they would | :40:35. | :40:37. | |
heat and whether they would be able to keep their homes. Member of | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
Theresa May's inner circle feel deeply bruised over the fallout of | :40:43. | :40:47. | |
the manifesto. On social care, they said the Prime Minister was | :40:48. | :40:50. | |
motivated by fairness. Why should a young person living in the North | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
subsidise the care costs of a pensioner living in the South in a | :40:55. | :41:00. | |
house worth ?1 million. It is a choice between strong and stable | :41:01. | :41:03. | |
leadership under the Conservatives... One of the aspects | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
of the campaign was the disappearing act performed by one of the central | :41:09. | :41:14. | |
messages, Theresa May's strong and stable leadership. The strong and | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
stable thing worked for about two days, resonated for two days, then | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
people were sick of it because it was literally repeated. I don't know | :41:23. | :41:29. | |
when that was dropped. I know with our local campaign, we dropped | :41:30. | :41:32. | |
saying it very quickly because of the reaction we got. That was | :41:33. | :41:35. | |
probably the way it was dropped around the country bag other | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
candidates as well. Lynton Crosby was the author of this message and | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
he is also blamed for the highly personal attacks on Jeremy Corbyn. | :41:45. | :41:49. | |
This dismayed one of the architects of the Tory modernisation project. | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
There was an attempted character assassination, which I think was | :41:55. | :42:00. | |
quite likely to do what it did, repel far more people than it | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
attracted. Lynton Crosby has told friends about his frustration with | :42:06. | :42:09. | |
the campaign, puts one old friend thinks he will recover. You win some | :42:10. | :42:15. | |
and lose some. It shouldn't affect his reputation. For what he does, he | :42:16. | :42:23. | |
doesn't make the speeches. He doesn't choose the Shadow Cabinet or | :42:24. | :42:29. | |
the Cabinet, he isn't involved in that side of it. For what he does, | :42:30. | :42:35. | |
he does that pretty professionally. But it is no guarantee that you are | :42:36. | :42:42. | |
always going to win an election. Theresa May is now fighting to keep | :42:43. | :42:47. | |
the Tories in office and avoid another election. Amid widespread | :42:48. | :42:50. | |
agreement among her MPs that she needs to stand down before then, one | :42:51. | :42:55. | |
senior figure says the party should develop a more positive outlook with | :42:56. | :43:00. | |
an emphasis on schools and skills. I think this very narrow shrill, | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
divisive partisan insistence that Brexit was ever think, quite a hard | :43:06. | :43:11. | |
Brexit message. I think people started to think, if that is the | :43:12. | :43:14. | |
Conservative Party, if it thinks everything will be solved by Brexit, | :43:15. | :43:19. | |
it isn't in tune with us. I think the campaign let Theresa May down. | :43:20. | :43:25. | |
That speech on the streets of Number Ten last year achieved huge approval | :43:26. | :43:33. | |
across the country. Theresa May had thought by now, she would be | :43:34. | :43:38. | |
settling back into Downing Street with an emphatic electoral mandate. | :43:39. | :43:42. | |
Instead, the legacy of her troubled campaign is a new life as the | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
surprise leader of a minority government. And this negotiations | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
with a minor party and even factions within her own Cabinet to ensure the | :43:51. | :43:52. | |
survival of her government. We leave you with some | :43:53. | :43:56. | |
of the messages written on the wall outside Latymer Christian Centre | :43:57. | :44:01. | |
in the last two days. They reflect the grief that has | :44:02. | :44:03. | |
engulfed that part of London, and also the quite anger of people | :44:04. | :44:06. | |
still looking for answers. Good evening. A cold front moved | :44:07. | :45:14. | |
across the country introducing fresh air today and that is good news in | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
terms of the feel through the night. More comfortable for trying to | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
sleep. There will be | :45:23. | :45:23. |