16/06/2017 Newsnight

Down at the site of the fire - they're calling her a coward.

Can the Prime Minister prove to the protesters

in West London her government has listened and learned?

Within three weeks, people will be rehoused

I ask you again, do you accept, though, that you misread the public

You didn't go and meet residents and they really resented that.

This was a terrible tragedy that took place.

Tonight those demonstrations continue - one group have tried

And at Downing Street - all demanding answers.

I walked with them from Kensington town Hall to the tower and saw the

passion and the anger of people here.

And - reality check - it's just just one week

If there was an election next week, God forbid, who would vote for

So you switch now. -- so you've switched now.

We ask people in Enfield Southgate - which turned Labour this time -

what they make of the election result.

It was exactly a week ago that Kensington Town Hall

was recounting one of the tightest fought battles of

A seat that overturned a huge Conservative majority -

Today, it became the centre of protest as locals and residents

of the Grenfell Tower fire descended upon it to scream their anger -

demanding justice, information, and answers from government

Arrangements for survivors and evacuees in the borough

Powered by volunteers with little coordination from authorities.

Tonight, as more protests spread to the centre of London -

it felt like a bottle had been uncorked.

The heat of early summer, the anger of grief -

a potentially toxic combination for a government so fragile

John Sweeney has been in the thick of it all day and joins us.

What is the mood like where you are? Well, the situation here, it is

tense. I just walked past a candlelit vigil, many people

standing outside the church holding candles to the dead. But at the same

time there are shouts and there is a frenzy, police helicopter in the

sky. It is very very hard to convey just how angry people were. I went

on this march from Kensington Town Hall to the tower and there were

times when you could almost feel the anger over flow. This feels, I might

be wrong, but this feels toxic for the government of Theresa May. It

feels as though there is a vacuum with this situation and what happens

when a vacuum is created, not nothing, but people feel in and it

is dark. No question. The feeling on the march you described earlier, as

that is abated now? -- has that dissipated now? No, I don't want to

be overly pessimistic but I can't see this ending well. Simple problem

is, nobody knows how many people have died. I was speaking to someone

who was close to a firefighter and they will worry that actually there

could be refugee families from places like Somalia with lots and

lots of people in their family and so the numbers we are talking about,

possibly 70 dead, maybe 100, maybe more, no one knows. And while the

uncertainty happens and there are good reasons for the authorities to

be cautious and go step-by-step, to get the forensics right, which is

difficult, but that is fuelling anger and it feels as though nothing

is being done and Theresa May did not help. I've heard this again and

again. The difficulty right now, and there are people shouting at us, the

BBC is not popular, but today, this evening, I walked with the marchers

from Kensington Town Hall and this is my report.

Tonight, those who are grieving for the dead of the Grenfell

fire took to the streets of London's richest borough.

We outnumber the Conservative voters in this area two to one.

The election result here in Kensington was more

finely balanced than that, but the passion is real and raw.

High Street Ken tube is over there and we've just turned off

Kensington High Street and we are now on

The idea that there would be a big demo, a big angry demo in this part

of London a couple of weeks ago, it's extraordinary.

As the march turned north towards the tower the numbers grew.

The kids go to all of the schools round here.

Also on the march, this man, who lives in a tower block in south

London and fears what happened to the people of Grenfell Tower

They have put new cladding on our block and we have been unable

to find out the last three days if that cladding is safe.

I've had about eight hours sleep the last few nights.

Motorists hooted their support, tourists and shoppers

But, for the main, the police presence was very low-key.

So the tower in the background, the crowd is still pouring fast,

and it's hard to express just how angry these people are.

Politics has left Parliament and gone on the streets.

As light faded, passions seemed to ease but London's

The government was keen to get on the front

Sajiv Javid - the Communities Secretary -

promised nothing would be spared in an attempt to get those

This was the picture that did for George Bush's reputation, flying

over the devastation of hurricane Katrina, and ignoring the victims

and seemingly their plight, is this the picture which is going to have a

similar impact for Theresa May? Yesterday, not meeting the survivors

and the anxious, but meeting the security services. The fact that

today the Queen managed to visit only served to put more pressure on

Theresa May. Her Majesty is not the focus of widespread anger right now,

though. We want answers, and justice. Rightly or wrongly, Theresa

May has become just that. What we want, justice. Theresa May is joined

in the dock by Kensington and Chelsea Council. We have a right to

be angry, and we have got to come out and say this is not acceptable.

Enough is enough. We need to be angry, because there's reason not to

be angry, because children have died. Families have died. A protest

this afternoon included people storming to the town hall reception

and a stand-off on the stairs. We want justice. We want justice. What

you get is a strong sense of anger, not simply about what happened in

Grenfell Tower although that is obviously the focus of the

demonstration, but it is more about the power relationships and who is

in charge and how they treat people who are dependent on them for their

lives and their livelihoods. What we heard today time and time again is

that the authorities are not being honest and they are holding

information back and they are trying to minimise the official death toll.

Nearly 100 persons missing, a lot of people asking, did you see this

person, did you meet him, have you heard about him. People are lost.

They don't know if they are in the hospital 's or they are dead or they

are in the building. The Prime Minister attempted to answer her

critics today with a visit to Chelsea and Westminster Hospital to

meet survivors. Strong and stable leadership or just stable door

locking. Because when that wasn't enough to satisfy her critics, the

Prime Minister's team organised another visit, this afternoon to a

church near the tower, now a centre for the relief effort, but this did

little to calm the anger. And then you are going to come down after

people forced you to be here. And then you are going to hide behind

that red door. Why go to the same place Jeremy Corbyn wins 24 hours

before? It is a publicity stunt and the newspapers like The Daily Mail

will show that to show that she has heart and soul, but she is cold like

a fish, ridiculous. If you care, show that you care. Where is the

housing minister and the Home Secretary? We need you to talk, I'm

not trying to blame anyone, but show you care, be around. The council

have not shown anything, where are they? We are going to talk about

things that happened, and make sure this doesn't happen again, but this

has happened now. The Prime Minister's departure was chaotic

from the church. Shouts of murderers and coward and at one point her

car's departure was blocked and the police had to intervene. The way was

cleared just in time. She might have managed to leave the area but

neither she all the government or the Council Arkley of the

controversy surrounding this disaster -- she or the government.

Well, this evening - in a very unusual move -

and with next to no notice - Downing Street informed us

the Prime Minister would be arriving here at the BBC to do an interview.

Theresa May was announcing a comprehensive package

of support for the victims - including a ?5 million fund

made available to pay for emergency supplies,

I sat down with the Prime Minster earlier.

Prime Minister, you've come here today to the BBC,

instead of doing the interview at the site where you just

Well, what I want to talk about today is what the government

is making available to the victims of this absolutely

I think we were all, when we saw the horrific scenes

of what had happened at Grenfell Tower, we were all

It's absolutely horrifying and I've been hearing stories today

I've also been hearing from the local community,

about the issues and concerns that they have.

Now, the government is making ?5 million available, emergency

Just to get money to be able to buy normal things of everyday life.

This morning I was in one of the hospitals meeting some

One of the women said to me, basically she ran out

of Grenfell Tower in a T-shirt and a pair of knickers.

That is why the government is putting that funding in.

There are other things we will do as well to provide support

for people to ensure they are rehoused

But immediately we need to make sure people have the help they need.

There is a need for the public to hear you say in words of one

syllable, something terrible has happened, something

"It is our fault, we acknowledge that and we accept responsibility".

This is an absolutely awful fire that took place.

People have had their homes destroyed.

They have fled for their lives with absolutely nothing.

Do you accept that you misread the public mood on this one?

You misread the anger that people feel about this.

They shouted coward you this afternoon when you left St Clements.

What I have done since this incident took place,

first of all, yesterday, ensure that public services had

the support that they needed in order to be able to do the job

they were doing in the immediate aftermath...

Prime Minister, this is Friday evening, they needed those things

People we spoke to were housed for one night and didn't know

where they would spend the next night.

And were not told anything by anyone.

What I have done today is ensured that we are as a government putting

that funding in place for people in the area.

This has been an absolutely terrifying experience.

When are they told where they are going to be housed?

It has been a terrifying experience for people.

This is why, when I've heard stories, I heard stories yesterday

from the emergency services about the issues around the fire,

that is why I came straight back to Downing Street and I ordered

And we'll make sure that takes place as soon as possible to get

This is not just about finding what happened.

This is not just finding out who is responsible for what happened.

It's about ensuring that support is there, here and now.

Any other tragedy, flooding, you would have had the Army there,

I was there on the ground, I saw the chaos myself.

There was no one willing to accept responsibility.

We are making sure that support is put in place the people.

That means that money should be made available and we have...

One of the things I have just heard from people is about making sure

that that money actually get through to people.

Because we have to, as government, make the money available.

I want to make sure that people actually get that money

in their hands so they can go and buy the things that they need.

But they are being rehoused outside the borough,

in places they don't know, don't live, don't have

We are committed to making sure the people are rehoused as far

as possible within the borough or in neighbouring boroughs.

Some people may actually want to go to another part of London

where perhaps they have a greater support network, where they have

We are making sure that within three weeks people will be rehoused

Do you accept, though, that you misread the public mood

You didn't visit the residents and they really resented that.

This was a terrible tragedy that took place.

People have lost their lives and others have lost everything.

All their possessions, their home and everything.

What we are doing is putting in place the support

I have heard horrifying stories from the Fire Brigade, from the police,

and from the victims themselves who were in that fire,

but also from other local residents, some of whom, of course,

have not been able to go back to their homes either.

What I'm not actually focused on is making sure that we get that

As I say, government is making money available and we are making sure

that we're going to get to the bottom of what's happened

and we will make sure that people are rehoused.

But we need to make sure that that actually happens.

In 2013 a coroner had safety recommendations which included

putting sprinklers in all these buildings and it was never done.

There were two types of material that could have been

used in the cladding, one was flammable

We have yet to find out what because of the fire was.

You could have stopped it spreading by spending ?2 more.

The Fire Service are looking at what because of the fire

was and it's important that we get to the bottom of this, that we find

You were in government and the coroner said you can stop

this with a sprinkler system in every block.

And the government has taken action on the recommendations

But what we need to do in relation to this incident,

to this horrifying fire, is to make sure that we get

to the bottom of why is fire took place, what happened,

why did it spread so unexpectedly and so ferociously.

But we know Gavin Barwell sat on a report from last October,

He knew about these recommendations then.

The government acted on recommendations from

But what we need to do is make sure that information to this fire we do

The Fire Service will look at what it was that immediately

happened, but beyond that, the public inquiry will get to

the wider issues of responsibility in relation to this.

Around the country there are 4000 other high-rise blocks.

There are many, many residents tonight wondering what kind

When will you be able to tell them that they are safe

The government is doing everything in its power to make sure

We've identified those buildings and over the weekend,

now and over the weekend, people are going in and

We will do everything in our power to make sure that people are safe.

Does it have to be a culture where you start putting health

and safety first instead of cutting corners?

What we need to do is to make sure that immediately people

have the support that they need in order to deal with what is

a horrific and terrible circumstance that people are in.

We then also need to look at how this happened, why it happened,

And if action needs to be taken, we will take it.

And we should say the government says it did act on the coroner's

recommendations following the Camberwell tower fire by writing

to social housing landlords asking them to consider fitting sprinklers

It also says it has been consulting on revised building regulations.

It will be a while before we know for sure what caused

the Grenfell Tower fire and what led it to consume the building

But already questions have been asked about the cladding applied

Newsnight revealed on Wednesday that it contained plastic

and was less fire resistant than others available.

Our producer Phil Kemp has been investigating possible

Yesterday we heard from the fire protection Association about their

concerns used in Malta construction and the fire risk they pose. That

isn't just the cladding. -- used in their construction. This

polyethylene core which is less fire resistant than other types

available. But also the plastic insulation, the foam which sits

between the wall and this cladding. There has been a push in recent

years to make these apartment buildings more energy efficient. All

over the country. But in doing that and with the best of intentions it

seems we may have introduced a new fire risk. Interestingly, I spoke to

the fire Chief of Frankfurt. Frankfurt is a city with lots of

high-rise buildings. He told me these types of combustible products

simply could not be used in high-rise buildings in Germany. They

haven't been used for years. It's also the case in Germany that they

do not use lots of products we use here that have a particular fire

retardant because of the toxic chemical it gives off when it is on

fire that are potentially lethal to people. Different standards between

what we do here and in Germany. You talked about the cladding. But

this might also be something internal to the buildings.

I spoke to another expert this morning. He was telling me that in a

block like Grenfell Tower all of the fronts of the flats have to be fire

safe doors in their own right. And they also have to be self closing.

That is because if a fire breaks out in a flat it'll contain it and stop

it from spreading throughout the block. We know there has been an

issue with other blocks owned by the same company. This might be relevant

in the Grenfell Tower case because there was smoke in the stairwells.

We've also heard the story of a neighbour who is able to look

straight into the flat were apparently a fridge exploded. The

expert I spoke to said that suggests there might be a problem with the

self closing door in that case. What is emerging now is the possibility

that there is a combination of different factors. Both internally

and externally that might be coming together in a perfect storm to lead

to this devastating fire. Thank you very much.

Extraordinary to think this time last week the nation was just trying

to get to grips with an election result very few had seen coming.

A week on there is still no official deal between

the Conservatives and the DUP - but there are very few Conservatives

willing Theresa May to go - so loath are they to contemplate

We went to a marginal seat in North London -

where many voters abandoned the Conservatives to

I was keen to find out what they had been voting for -

and how they viewed the result we ended up with.

David, I'm going to start with you, because you voted for the first

time this time round, what was it that made you vote,

Being 18 now, just two weeks after Brexit, I seemed to miss that.

A lot of young people my age, me, as well,

There was a lot of decisions being made that we had no option

And it would affect us more than the older people who got

So, to vote in this election was very important,

because it actually, this time, seemed like

I voted for my local MP, and I do also think Jeremy Corbyn

is good as a leader of the Labour Party, yes.

I wanted him to be Prime Minister more than I wanted Theresa May

Mark, I'm going to come to you, what was it that pushed you to vote?

So, my priorities in this vote was who's going to be the next

And I didn't feel comfortable with the idea of Jeremy Corbyn

being the next leader in Downing Street.

And the reason for that is because there have been instances

of anti-Semitism within the Labour Party.

And I just don't think Jeremy Corbyn has done enough to tackle

that and to put people from my community's mind at ease.

So, for me it was largely about the leader.

I'm not necessarily a Jeremy Corbyn fan, but I do think

And I think for the first time, maybe in my voting life,

there was a distinction between real socialism and Tory politics.

And I felt like in new Labour they went so right of centre

in order to capture the vote, the first time there really

was a choice, I'm a socialist, of voting for socialist principles,

Louise, when you hear people talking about, you know,

a politician with integrity, versus the one that you voted for,

Theresa May, or your local MP, what does it say to you?

I personally feel Theresa May does have integrity.

She is somebody who I prefer to other Tory politicians.

She came from a grammar school background, not public school.

But probably, security is on my mind at the moment.

I've got three daughters growing up in this world, I live in London,

I didn't feel comfortable, and when we talked about leader

versus party, I didn't feel comfortable with Jeremy Corbyn

Theresa May seems to be taking a very strong hand.

Can I ask who else had terror in their minds,

or the response to terror when they voted?

I think in Labour's manifesto, talking about putting more

into public security in terms of policing, things like that,

that is what is going to counterterrorism.

Not what things like Theresa May did by cutting police,

cutting national security, if they had five, ten warnings

about things that happened recently because of cuts.

How many people voted Labour over terror but for different

reasons to security, about public service cuts.

Madeleine I want to come to you, because you were wavering right up

until the moment when you put the cross in the box.

For the first time in quite a few elections I actually

got into the booth and, I have to say, I was wavering,

where to put my cross, Conservative or labour.

I went Conservative because I think we need continuity.

I'm not sure if it was the right thing to do even now.

Labour did get in in our constituency.

There is the NHS, which is a big thing for me.

All of those issues, there are so many issues,

Can I ask how many people had Brexit on their mind?

We were told at the beginning that this was a vote about Brexit.

How many people went to the polls thinking about Brexit

I did think about it, I really actually was happy with the result,

because I think the Conservatives need to get on with it.

So, for me, the fact that they don't have a huge majority

is going to make it difficult to push through some

Let them get on with this Brexit, because I want to see how

Let me just ask you now with a show of hands,

who feels they got the outcome from this election that they wanted?

Interesting, so we've got one, two, three, four, five, OK.

Let me ask the other way around, who feels it's a mess, where we are?

It is reflective of how split the country is.

John, you said out of chaos sometimes order emerges.

Madeline, that's not your sense of this at all.

I do feel a bit worried, I'm not a worrying person, really,

but I feel there is so much going on, there's so many issues

that need to be solved, and I wanted a continuation of something.

I'm not sure if it is going to happen now.

But by voting Tory I just thought keep it as it is for

And to let Theresa May go through with the Brexit she has

I'm not sure she can deliver it, but we shall see.

For you as a Conservative, either of you two, do you feel

I don't not trust her in terms of her character or her integrity.

She took an awful lot for granted and certainly has egg on her face.

And that bothers me that she has weakened our position in terms

Although we had Jean-Claude Juncker saying he doesn't...

You know, she's obviously the laughing stock over in Brussels.

But I just, I hope we can get some stability soon and in order

to type up the Brexit deal she's promising us.

Do you resent this, Mark, as a, sort of, election?

Do you feel she's put you, as a conservative voter,

I just think it was very unnecessary.

I know it's easy to say that in hindsight, but at a time

when you need complete stability, there was just no

I think it was a really bad error of judgment.

Of the ones who voted Conservative, which of you like Theresa May

as much, or more, than you did before the election?

I didn't find her a hugely warm character.

When she appeared on the One Show, it was embarrassing.

So, what is the bit that you warm to?

The confidence she gives me in the way she's going to continue

Let me ask the Labour voters, which of you like Jeremy Corbyn

as much or more since you voted, or since the election?

I've liked him since I saw him as a local MP

Do you think this is just about who won and who lost,

not in actual numbers, but in terms of who was seen

to have a good campaign, and who wasn't having

I think this is something that doesn't necessarily just come

I personally support Jeremy Corbyn because this

is a process, this is a great, and what he represents

It is a shift from this, kind of, establishment politics to something

which is more for the community, the bottom, the people.

Who here thinks Brexit won't actually happen now?

Just a softer version than what she wanted.

It is this word that hangs there, Brexit, what does it mean?

When it happens we will have a list of things that our policies

If we all turn against it all of us in this room say, no,

that's going to affect my mum, the children, that's going to affect

We can't have that happen to our country.

I think that Britain will be outside the EU paying all the same

fees for all the same privileges they have.

They will not be part of Europe because we voted to be out of it.

Does everyone agree with Paula on this one?

But they are going to have to pay for it, because how can you trade,

OK, let's have a look at domestic agenda.

If there was one issue that really...

Caught hold of you during this election, in domestic terms

come away from Brexit, what was it?

Last question, if there was an election next week,

Who would vote for a Conservative other than Theresa May?

If I said Boris Johnson, would you put your hand down?

I was voting for Labour policies, not Jeremy Corbyn,

but he is the leader, but I think it is about

We need somebody inspirational to push it forward, but it should be

I think it is a shame that we focus on the personalities of the leaders,

It's what they do, not what they've said.

It sounds like we should take this on to the pub now.

Well a lot of the anger that we've been seeing today has been

from friends and relatives who want to know what has happened

The tower is now a burnt out shell - and the site of a criminal

investigation, and toxic and strucutually unsafe.

So how do they even begin to make sense of what actually happened

in here on Tuesday night and how long will it be before forensic

teams are able to provide answers as to who lost their lives inside.

Lessons can be learnt from the aftermath of the 9/11

One of the forensic pathologists of that catasrophe

was Dr Judy Melinek - who joined me earleir

I asked her what she had learnt then that could be shared with us now.

A thorough investigation is not something that

It takes weeks and even months, and sometimes up to and including

years in order to get to the bottom of what happens.

In the immediate aftermath, first and most importantly,

the people who are responding and the supervisors in charge need

to make sure that the structure is sufficiently safe and sound

so that first responders who are going in there and those

who are charged with the recovery of the remains are safe, as well,

And the next step would be to collect important information

About their ways to identify them, either identifying marks

or scars, jewellery, tattoos and also collect DNA.

And how difficult you think it will be to collect DNA?

The most important thing is that we don't know at this

particular point what the condition of the remains are.

There could be a whole discrepancy between people who are intact,

but just suffered from smoke inhalation, compared to people whose

And a situation such as this you can have difficulty because,

for example, in 9/11 we could get exemplar asked from the deceased.

Or we could get the underwear of the person who is missing.

And use that to compare them to the person.

It easier to compare self to solve than to compare self to next of kin.

And so in this particular situation, you've got people who are dead

within their residencies, all of their personal

property basically went up in flames with them,

and so it seems that most likely the analyses are going to have to be

to next of kin relatives, and that's more difficult.

Am I right in thinking that in the Twin Towers, some 40%

The reason for that is because of the forces at play

in that particular incident where you had jet fuel.

You had fires that went on for months.

We don't have exactly the same scenario here,

so I'm hopeful that DNA analysis will be more fruitful

This will be devastating news to many of the families.

And they will want to know what happens if they don't get

In the United States for 911 victims who were not identified

based on their bodies, there was a legal process put

into place, a judicial process, where the person was declared dead

and a death certificate was created so that the families

could then have closure, close-out financial concerns,

and move on, even though the body parts had not yet been identified.

And if and when DNA analysis occurred at a later time those data

points were merged with the death certificate that was put

At least the death certificate allows the family to move on.

Even when remains are taking longer to identify.

You started by saying that the key was communication.

Do you think authorities have explained fully enough here just how

lengthy and difficult a process this will be?

I think it is important that they set up a command centre

and that they have public relation staff who are on hand to be able

Typically what happens is we will set up a family centre

separate from the coroner's office so that the families can go

And in this particular situation you have people who are in need

So that can all be centralised and you can use that family centre

as a repository for also collecting information about the deceased

and people who are missing, and also exemplars for DNA analysis.

And, some rampages. The same story but reported with different leads --

before we go, I will go through some of the front pages. The protest

moves onto the street. The Daily Telegraph, militants hijacked the

protest, they have accused them of exploiting it. This headline, it was

murdered. And there is a tale of two photos with the Queen and Theresa

May. That's all from us at the end

of a week - and a fortnight - that will be remembered in this

country for a very long time. It is a dry, settled and sunny story

for many of us this weekend, hardly a cloud in the sky across much of

England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Some sunshine in eastern Scotland,

but the far north-west remaining cloudy and down at times, but by the