22/06/2017 Newsnight


22/06/2017

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis and Evan Davis.


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Transcript


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Tonight, as the government tackles the use of Grenfell Tower-style

:00:00.:00:10.

cladding in other local authority housing, Newsnight reveals that

:00:11.:00:13.

a leading hotel chain is questioning the cladding on three

:00:14.:00:16.

We'll get reaction from Parliament, the Fire Brigades Union,

:00:17.:00:21.

Probably not Theresa May's favourite assignment, meeting other EU leaders

:00:22.:00:33.

in her somewhat wee juiced circumstances. She put on a brave

:00:34.:00:39.

face. Other Europeans have adopted a perplexed tone. I think, I don't

:00:40.:00:49.

know what the British want. I am in Brussels and we'll be asking if the

:00:50.:00:53.

Europeans are, for the moment, being polite but unhelpful.

:00:54.:00:55.

And what was it like in Aleppo during the last days of the siege?

:00:56.:00:58.

We follow local journalists as they leave their hometown.

:00:59.:01:24.

The government confirmed this evening

:01:25.:01:33.

that the number of high rise blocks of flats found to have combustible

:01:34.:01:36.

cladding similar to that used on Grenfell Tower has risen

:01:37.:01:39.

to 11, across eight local authorities.

:01:40.:01:40.

But tonight, concerns about safety are extending

:01:41.:01:44.

beyond the housing sector, into a leading hotel chain.

:01:45.:01:47.

Premier Inn has told Newsnight that it is "extremely concerned"

:01:48.:01:50.

about the cladding on three of its high rise hotels.

:01:51.:01:53.

After an urgent review the company has advised this programme

:01:54.:01:57.

that the developers responsible for the construction

:01:58.:02:00.

of hotels in Maidenhead, Brentford and Tottenham had

:02:01.:02:03.

installed cladding that Premier Inn says does not appear to comply

:02:04.:02:06.

The Grenfell Tower still casts its shadow over Britain. Today the

:02:07.:02:24.

government revealed that the external cladding on 600 buildings

:02:25.:02:29.

is now being investigated. The house should be careful on speculation of

:02:30.:02:32.

what caused the fire but as a precaution the government have

:02:33.:02:36.

arranged to test cladding in all 11 tower blocks. Shortly before I came

:02:37.:02:41.

to the chamber I was informed that a number of these tests have come back

:02:42.:02:44.

as compost the ball. The relevant local authorities and services have

:02:45.:02:50.

been informed and they are taking all possible steps to insure that

:02:51.:02:54.

buildings are safe and to inform affected residents. Cladding was a

:02:55.:02:59.

key issue at Grenfell, the building's outer skin was an

:03:00.:03:03.

aluminium composite material which is quite common, bound around a core

:03:04.:03:11.

of something. The best cladding has a minimal call which is completely

:03:12.:03:18.

non-combustible but at Grenfell it was polyethylene, a plastic, which

:03:19.:03:25.

may have let the fire spread so the government is looking at those at

:03:26.:03:27.

600 buildings to see how many may have cladding width too combustible

:03:28.:03:33.

A call. A new worrying element emerged today. A Camden tower block

:03:34.:03:41.

contained a major fire back in 2012. Canned and believe this is because

:03:42.:03:47.

they have a safer kind of cladding -- Camden. But they have revealed

:03:48.:03:53.

that they were not supplied with the cladding they thought they had

:03:54.:03:55.

bought for some of their buildings. We thought we were dealing with

:03:56.:03:59.

reputable companies, we feel let down and the tenants feel let down.

:04:00.:04:04.

My priority is to make sure that the tenants feel safe which is why we're

:04:05.:04:10.

putting in place 24-7 fire wardens and to take down the extra panels.

:04:11.:04:14.

Five towers are having cladding stripped off them. We know we have

:04:15.:04:19.

13 of the taller buildings across Camden and these one the Leeds ones

:04:20.:04:27.

in particular were clad as the same company as riding, who did the work

:04:28.:04:32.

in Kensington, so it was top of our list, to look at the workmanship and

:04:33.:04:39.

projects that we used and make sure we 100% sure that our residents are

:04:40.:04:48.

safe -- as Rydon. I am in Maidenhead, Theresa May's

:04:49.:04:50.

constituency and the building behind me is her local Premier Inn. It is

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covered in cladding, specifically an aluminium composite material. If it

:04:58.:05:02.

were being used as social housing it will have had to send a sample of

:05:03.:05:06.

the cladding to the government for testing to ensure it was one of the

:05:07.:05:09.

safe and not the unsafe forms of aluminium cladding but because it is

:05:10.:05:14.

used as a hotel there is no such obligation. So we checked and this

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hotel is one of three Premier Inns which the company says do not appear

:05:22.:05:26.

to meet the required standards. They say that the developers were

:05:27.:05:29.

responsible for the construction of the buildings.

:05:30.:05:43.

Premier Inn also said that an independent expert has assured them

:05:44.:05:52.

that those three hotels are safe to continue operating given their

:05:53.:05:55.

evacuation plans and robust safety measures. Working out whether things

:05:56.:06:00.

are compliant is surprisingly complex because people can

:06:01.:06:02.

commission tests to prove that things work in certain scenarios,

:06:03.:06:09.

so-called desktop studies. It is open to wiggle room in that the

:06:10.:06:12.

criteria given for which tests should be used in the desktop study

:06:13.:06:17.

are not laid down and it does not say who is qualified or is not

:06:18.:06:24.

qualified to do such a study. A tougher building rule book is surely

:06:25.:06:28.

already on the cards. A simple one may be wise as well.

:06:29.:06:30.

You have singled out Premier Inn. Is it fair to do that? Not really at

:06:31.:06:42.

all, to be honest. We had a list of buildings which we believed have

:06:43.:06:46.

issues potentially with their cladding and we went to Premier Inn

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and they were very honest and straightforward and replied

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immediately after they had checked. It's important to stress that it is

:06:55.:06:58.

not Premier Inn we should be worrying about. Furthermore it is

:06:59.:07:01.

important to stress that the cladding they used is a fire

:07:02.:07:06.

retardant cladding. It isn't of the sort that automatically meets all of

:07:07.:07:11.

the codes but it isn't bad, not the stuff we think was used at Grenfell.

:07:12.:07:16.

Furthermore, they have multiple escape routes in the hotels, alarms

:07:17.:07:21.

in every room. There's no reason to be particularly worried about them.

:07:22.:07:24.

It's unfortunate that we singled them out because they were so honest

:07:25.:07:28.

with us when we went to them. It tells you that a lot of people don't

:07:29.:07:31.

know what is at the heart of their cladding. No, absolutely. Nick, in

:07:32.:07:37.

terms of the political ramifications, does it feel like the

:07:38.:07:41.

government is on top of the scale of the problem? It has been a difficult

:07:42.:07:46.

week for Theresa May because of what she described today as the

:07:47.:07:49.

unimaginable scale of the tragedy, the woeful response on the ground

:07:50.:07:54.

for which she apologised and her misjudgement in failing, on her

:07:55.:07:57.

first visit, to meet the residents and their families, failure to win

:07:58.:08:01.

their confidence and make a connection in the way that Jeremy

:08:02.:08:06.

Corbyn did. Today was her first chance in Parliament to update MPs

:08:07.:08:11.

properly since the election. She sends two significant signals.

:08:12.:08:16.

First, she hears the concerns of the residents who say that this tragedy

:08:17.:08:21.

highlights a really big point about our society, that people living in

:08:22.:08:25.

the heart of London, living completely different and

:08:26.:08:27.

fundamentally different lives to people in Westminster, that she

:08:28.:08:32.

understands the concern. The second big signal she wanted to send, that

:08:33.:08:36.

the government has a grip but there was an unfortunate moment this

:08:37.:08:41.

morning when Number ten, as Chris reported, said that 600 high-rise

:08:42.:08:45.

buildings have similar cladding to Grenfell Tower and it turns out it

:08:46.:08:49.

was expanded tower blocks that had cladding. Downing Street at the

:08:50.:08:54.

moment, not quite functioning properly. Yes, a bit of confusion.

:08:55.:08:59.

We did invite the government onto the programme tonight

:09:00.:09:00.

Instead, I'm joined by the Conservative

:09:01.:09:03.

MP Sir David Amess, chair of the all-Party Parliamentary

:09:04.:09:05.

Also with me is Matt Wrack, the general secretary

:09:06.:09:11.

of the Fire Brigades Union, and Pilgrim Tucker from

:09:12.:09:13.

the Grenfell Action Group which represented residents

:09:14.:09:15.

I wanted to pick up on the back of Chris's piece, first with you,

:09:16.:09:27.

David. This is not to retract from what we are learning about social

:09:28.:09:32.

housing, which must be the priority but this discovery suggests there

:09:33.:09:38.

could be a much wider problem with building regulation as a whole,

:09:39.:09:42.

doesn't it? Absolutely and I'm shocked by what I've heard. The

:09:43.:09:45.

committee is going to look at it very quickly. It's so frustrating

:09:46.:09:51.

that we've been asking for the building regulations to be reviewed

:09:52.:09:54.

every year and nothing at all has happened until now. I wanted to say,

:09:55.:10:02.

before I came from my office in Westminster, Sajid Javid the

:10:03.:10:05.

Communities Secretary sent all MPs a letter setting out in detail what he

:10:06.:10:09.

is asking local authorities and housing associations to do. I am

:10:10.:10:13.

reassured that the government has got a grip on the situation that

:10:14.:10:22.

should haven't -- that shouldn't have happened. There is some

:10:23.:10:27.

confusion about a desktop study, the criteria. We just don't know what

:10:28.:10:35.

the law is, do we? We don't, but MPs, ministers are experts in these

:10:36.:10:39.

matters -- they aren't experts, they depend on advice and the idea that

:10:40.:10:43.

cladding should contain any element that is combustible is crazy. I

:10:44.:10:48.

don't think people will understand that because it seems that we have

:10:49.:10:55.

done via research, even, not just the scale of the problem was so

:10:56.:10:58.

shocking but the fact that it happened at all in 2017, are we not

:10:59.:11:03.

on top of fire regulation in the way that we thought we were? Clearly

:11:04.:11:08.

not, from what has happened and what is unfolding across the country. You

:11:09.:11:13.

mentioned research, one fact is that in terms of government commissioned

:11:14.:11:18.

fire research, there is virtually no government commissioned fire

:11:19.:11:22.

research in the UK. A team used to exist in the Department for

:11:23.:11:25.

Communities and Local Government, but they have gone after the cuts.

:11:26.:11:30.

If local authorities... The debate about cladding had been going on for

:11:31.:11:34.

a long time, we submitted evidence to Parliament in 1999 about it. If

:11:35.:11:41.

the Fire Services or local authorities identified this and

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said, let's commissioned research, there is no want to go to because

:11:45.:11:48.

every time you raise the issue, and David found this from a different

:11:49.:11:52.

angle, you run into obstacles, you are placing obstacles in the way of

:11:53.:11:56.

development, red tape and so on and that is the endless mantra. We come

:11:57.:12:02.

from different angles but anyone who has raised issues about fire safety

:12:03.:12:06.

will run into that brick wall. That's the irony. We talked on that

:12:07.:12:12.

first night after the fire and the people who knew and had real worries

:12:13.:12:15.

were those who had voices that were not being heard. Not being heard,

:12:16.:12:21.

no. Is your sense that that is now changing? I don't believe that is

:12:22.:12:26.

changing, I heard that Theresa May said she understood about inequality

:12:27.:12:33.

and I don't think she can do. If she did she would rapidly start

:12:34.:12:36.

reversing some of the Conservative legislation that has been enacted

:12:37.:12:42.

since 2010. I'm really appalled, I'm still getting over hearing that

:12:43.:12:51.

Rydon misled the council in terms of the cladding it was putting on the

:12:52.:12:55.

building. That is shocking. Isn't that the problem that many of these

:12:56.:13:00.

companies have contractors and subcontractors. Premier Inn were

:13:01.:13:06.

very honest and tried to provide clarity but they don't know what is

:13:07.:13:10.

on their building. Premier Inn owned the Hotel chain, it is not the

:13:11.:13:15.

contractor putting it on. Rydon is the contractor, so they should know

:13:16.:13:19.

what materials it is using. Local government should have the capacity

:13:20.:13:24.

to scrutinise and oversee what contracts it is going into but it

:13:25.:13:28.

doesn't and that's a consequence of these government cuts since 2010.

:13:29.:13:34.

That's really the root cause of the killing of all of these people. Do

:13:35.:13:40.

you think that the government should ask all of these departments...?

:13:41.:13:45.

What happens in terms of who has to go to the government, to have their

:13:46.:13:54.

cladding or materials fire checked? There our research stations that

:13:55.:13:59.

perform tests on the materials, performing them in particular

:14:00.:14:02.

circumstances and if you are a manufacturer you're going to make

:14:03.:14:05.

sure that when your material is tested, you send the best fitters to

:14:06.:14:10.

fit it in the way that you want it to be fitted, there will be a

:14:11.:14:14.

technical sheet going out to the construction firm who fit it but the

:14:15.:14:17.

question is, who is monitoring it as it is put on? That is, if it

:14:18.:14:21.

complies with the regulations anyway. In this particular case, for

:14:22.:14:28.

us there are questions about the design in which the cladding is

:14:29.:14:30.

applied to the building because there seems to have been some

:14:31.:14:33.

decorative boxing on each corner of the building. You're talking about

:14:34.:14:39.

Grenfell? An Grenfell Tower, there are a host of questions and clearly,

:14:40.:14:43.

people haven't got to grips with this. This is, I think it goes

:14:44.:14:52.

longer, I think it has got worse since 2010 but the whole regime is

:14:53.:14:57.

about deregulation, and anyone who raises safety concerns runs into

:14:58.:15:03.

this brick wall. It is welcome to hear a bit of a U-turn today on some

:15:04.:15:08.

of this but why it has taken a week to have this material tested, I

:15:09.:15:15.

think people will be shocked. And when, as a Tory MP, UCB blame being

:15:16.:15:20.

laid at the door of Conservative policies, do you refute any of that

:15:21.:15:24.

or do you say that we have to look at the cuts and the way we have

:15:25.:15:29.

regulated and our culture of prioritise intercutting of red tape

:15:30.:15:32.

or whatever? With all of those things I accept

:15:33.:15:39.

they must look at but I don't want to get into the party politics

:15:40.:15:45.

really because 2008 there was an economic crash, 2009 the disaster

:15:46.:15:48.

and that is when we should have taken action. In spite of the

:15:49.:15:54.

resources local authorities have got already, this is not very good, it

:15:55.:15:59.

does not reflect at all, local authorities should still be able to

:16:00.:16:03.

do checks and there is something not right about this. Whether it is the

:16:04.:16:07.

contractors or new products available, I am very pleased we are

:16:08.:16:10.

going to have this enquiry when I think the truth will come out. There

:16:11.:16:17.

will be residents, we now know 11 more towers, this is a very delicate

:16:18.:16:20.

situation for the government and those people as well, what would

:16:21.:16:28.

you, if they were calling you up now or see you as a voice for Grenfell

:16:29.:16:31.

residents, what would you say, it's not just to do with the cladding

:16:32.:16:34.

because there will be other precautions like sprinklers in place

:16:35.:16:39.

would you say leave the tower and your home and now? Contact somebody

:16:40.:16:45.

like Matt but you would want to start getting something like the

:16:46.:16:49.

cladding taken down. That would be a sensible thing to do. I think so. It

:16:50.:16:56.

was not cladding which caused the issues in 2009, it was what other

:16:57.:17:01.

alterations? If we just focus on cladding we will miss out on other

:17:02.:17:04.

operations which have affected fire safety within the building. There

:17:05.:17:11.

may be a whole, a thorough audit of every single high-rise building and

:17:12.:17:17.

London Fire Brigade today has altered the attendance of Fire

:17:18.:17:20.

Services at calls to those premises, that should happen across the UK

:17:21.:17:25.

immediately. Thank you all. We should mention that the contractor

:17:26.:17:29.

in that discussion involved in the cladding of Grenfell Tower and in

:17:30.:17:33.

Camden but they are not connected to Premier Inn just to clarify.

:17:34.:17:36.

That's it from me for now - but now let's go over

:17:37.:17:39.

Hello, from the Justus Lipsius building here in Brussels -

:17:40.:17:43.

behind me the good folks of the media, excitedly

:17:44.:17:46.

working on their stories from the European Council

:17:47.:17:47.

It's the first time Theresa May has met all her counterparts

:17:48.:17:51.

And to think, that was just two weeks ago.

:17:52.:17:56.

Back then, she - we - thought she'd be here with a strong

:17:57.:18:00.

personal mandate and voter backing for her version of Brexit.

:18:01.:18:03.

Had that outcome pertained, Britain would certainly have had

:18:04.:18:06.

a leader with unassailable authority to negotiate and sign

:18:07.:18:08.

But now she finds herself a minority leader, coping

:18:09.:18:16.

with crisis and anger at home, with a parliament unkeen

:18:17.:18:18.

on her version of Brexit, and a nation utterly divided

:18:19.:18:21.

So, it wasn't her strutting in with a big mandate,

:18:22.:18:25.

but Emmanuel Macron of France, the new hero of the

:18:26.:18:27.

Tonight, Mrs May told the others her proposals

:18:28.:18:34.

for EU citizens in the UK, post Brexit; one step

:18:35.:18:37.

Our diplomatic editor Mark Urban is with me.

:18:38.:18:43.

Just about this offer which broke tonight, on UK citizens and their

:18:44.:18:50.

rights, EU citizens and their rights? Theresa May hoping to regain

:18:51.:18:55.

the initiative with this offer. Broadly, 3 million EU citizens in

:18:56.:19:01.

the UK at the moment can all remain, through a five-year naturalisation

:19:02.:19:04.

process they can in fact have all the same rights as all other UK

:19:05.:19:08.

citizens whether that is education or medically speaking, whatever. The

:19:09.:19:13.

second point is you could still arrive and start that five-year

:19:14.:19:18.

clock, it gave a cut-off date somewhere between the Article 50

:19:19.:19:22.

declaration and the end of this process in 2019. We are already some

:19:23.:19:28.

months into that and it's going to negotiation, it could still be

:19:29.:19:31.

possible to arrive and start that five-year process. And a

:19:32.:19:36.

streamlining of the process for naturalisation, some people have

:19:37.:19:40.

complained about that, 85 pages, the UK Government will look again and

:19:41.:19:45.

make it simpler. That is the package in effect. We are not getting a lot

:19:46.:19:49.

of reaction to that because they do not want to get into negotiation

:19:50.:19:53.

about that. It's not going to happen. No. The fascinating thing

:19:54.:20:01.

about this summit is how awkward it always. You have 28 arriving, then

:20:02.:20:06.

one has to leave at a certain point. We already knew that was happening,

:20:07.:20:10.

add a couple of previous meetings but it's so awkward. Now these

:20:11.:20:15.

concrete proposals are being made, the EU standing on its formal

:20:16.:20:20.

position of seeing no, it's done through Michel Barnier and David

:20:21.:20:24.

Davis, that is when the conversation will resume next week. They will not

:20:25.:20:29.

give her any sort of proper reaction to her proposed packages. A whole

:20:30.:20:34.

second level of awkwardness because of the outcome of the UK general

:20:35.:20:36.

election where people see her weekend, they see things happening

:20:37.:20:40.

like Philip Hammond the chance for this morning opening up all sorts of

:20:41.:20:44.

possibilities, talking about three or four year transitional period.

:20:45.:20:53.

Maybe past the date of a UK election before we know what the trading

:20:54.:20:56.

terms will be and under what terms would be carry on during those three

:20:57.:21:02.

or four years added onto the Article 52-mac years? That has led people

:21:03.:21:06.

here to be more vocal and open things up to debate.

:21:07.:21:17.

It's never been easy, getting the 28 to move

:21:18.:21:19.

Now 27 are learning that there is something even harder.

:21:20.:21:28.

Managing the departure of a nation from this place

:21:29.:21:30.

Theresa May arrived, post-election a wounded antelope

:21:31.:21:37.

to use a phrase coined by a Tory colleague - but hoping

:21:38.:21:40.

We will be setting out how we propose to ensure that EU

:21:41.:21:47.

citizens living in the UK have their rights protected

:21:48.:21:49.

Hearing the different views emerging from within Theresa May's cabinet,

:21:50.:21:58.

many of the European leaders arriving here are discarding

:21:59.:22:06.

the usual protocol of not commenting on another states affairs

:22:07.:22:09.

and giving their own version of what they think

:22:10.:22:11.

I think if there is a continued link to the the internal market

:22:12.:22:15.

and the customs union, in one form or another,

:22:16.:22:17.

including accepting that it also means the court in Luxembourg,

:22:18.:22:19.

if we could come to something like that, I am hopeful.

:22:20.:22:23.

And reminding everyone of the wider interest,

:22:24.:22:24.

TRANSLATION: For me, the future of the EU 27 takes

:22:25.:22:31.

precedence over negotiating the UK's exit from the EU.

:22:32.:22:41.

That spread of attitudes, from let's make Brexit

:22:42.:22:45.

as soft as possible, to will you just get on with it,

:22:46.:22:50.

runs through Europe's geographic and ideological axis.

:22:51.:22:53.

But they have been able to rally around their early priorities

:22:54.:22:55.

for negotiations and at the top of those, the rights of EU

:22:56.:22:58.

I believe it is outrageous the way the government treats people

:22:59.:23:02.

I mean, EU nationals, residing in the UK, and I am saying

:23:03.:23:13.

this because all these people, they don't know if they will

:23:14.:23:16.

still have the right to continue their life and work

:23:17.:23:18.

They need clarity, predictability and I would add

:23:19.:23:24.

In an attempt to answer that anger and move on the talks,

:23:25.:23:33.

Theresa May arrived bearing an offer on EU citizens relating to UK

:23:34.:23:36.

But given the strength of European views, they won't yield much,

:23:37.:23:50.

particularly in the transitional phase of Brexit,

:23:51.:23:51.

You want a lot of things that are impossible without accepting

:23:52.:23:55.

the European Court of Justice jurisdiction, the whole transition

:23:56.:24:00.

period which is practically the extension of what we call...

:24:01.:24:08.

Here in Brussels, which is simply the European union law,

:24:09.:24:10.

This is all under the supervision of the European Court of Justice

:24:11.:24:14.

and if you want to maintain the certain rights for the citizens

:24:15.:24:17.

and you want to have a transition period also that would allow

:24:18.:24:20.

you to continue maybe also with some other rights,

:24:21.:24:22.

then we cannot accept that there is no European Court of

:24:23.:24:25.

Justice because the European Court of Justice is the only court

:24:26.:24:28.

that we accept having the right to interpret European law.

:24:29.:24:41.

There are plenty in Brussels who've become more pessimistic post UK

:24:42.:24:43.

election about finding a way through Brexit.

:24:44.:24:45.

But speaking for the 27 governments, the council president tried

:24:46.:24:48.

The European Union was built on dreams that seemed

:24:49.:24:51.

You may say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.

:24:52.:25:06.

Having made her citizens rights pitch tonight to the 27,

:25:07.:25:10.

Theresa May trudged out of the summit leaving the others

:25:11.:25:12.

Their response will come via negotiator Michel Barnier,

:25:13.:25:19.

a measure of the EU's determination to stick to its own

:25:20.:25:21.

Mark Urban out and about in Brussels today.

:25:22.:25:31.

A phrase that has been habitualy adopted by politicians in the last

:25:32.:25:34.

few months in answer to any question at all, is "I've been

:25:35.:25:37.

Theresa May used it a lot, and you have to say,

:25:38.:25:41.

she was clear about Brexit in her Lancaster House

:25:42.:25:43.

Earlier today I spoke to Antonio Tajani, he's the Italian

:25:44.:25:51.

serving as President of the European Parliament.

:25:52.:25:55.

He's not a Brexit negotiator as such, however he is a player

:25:56.:25:58.

in all of this, as the parliament has to approve any deal.

:25:59.:26:05.

I asked him if the negotiation had changed given the UK election

:26:06.:26:09.

results. We will have the separation

:26:10.:26:11.

between London and Brussels. And we need to achieve

:26:12.:26:14.

agreement on the framework And then we need to start

:26:15.:26:16.

for an agreement for the day after. I think after the British elections,

:26:17.:26:32.

the situation for hard Brexit, For this, now it is

:26:33.:26:34.

important to be pragmatic. As I said from the beginning,

:26:35.:26:42.

it's important now to work also for paving the way

:26:43.:26:46.

for the day after. And we start that now, we need

:26:47.:26:52.

to start thinking about that. Exactly, the negotiations

:26:53.:26:55.

are starting. We need to work for the future also

:26:56.:26:58.

because the UK will leave the European Union but not Europe

:26:59.:27:02.

and we need to cooperate in the future against terrorism,

:27:03.:27:06.

against illegal immigration. Also on the defence sector

:27:07.:27:14.

because the UK is a member of Nato. Trade as well, and you're

:27:15.:27:18.

happy to start those talks fairly quickly now,

:27:19.:27:21.

not waiting until But to start thinking about the

:27:22.:27:23.

future relationship pretty quickly. No, we need before to decide

:27:24.:27:28.

the framework of the separation. Second step, after the agreement

:27:29.:27:32.

on the framework it's possible to start for an agreement

:27:33.:27:37.

for the future. In my opinion it's possible

:27:38.:27:40.

to achieve the goal But the separation,

:27:41.:27:42.

end of next year? That means we don't start talking

:27:43.:27:48.

about the future relationship No, no, no, for us it's important

:27:49.:27:53.

before to decide the separation. After the separation

:27:54.:27:57.

it's possible to speak, Do you feel Britain

:27:58.:28:00.

knows what it wants now? Obviously we had an election

:28:01.:28:06.

that was indecisive in some ways. I think, I don't know

:28:07.:28:09.

what the British want. Probably they are against

:28:10.:28:19.

the Brussels bureaucracy. A lot of problems, a lot of rules,

:28:20.:28:27.

the power, the European Commission, a lot of people working,

:28:28.:28:32.

civil servants, imposing rules. But I don't know if the British

:28:33.:28:40.

are not very well... The situation, the day after,

:28:41.:28:45.

without internal market. A lot of people are talking

:28:46.:28:50.

about transitional arrangements. I mean, how long do

:28:51.:28:53.

you think transitional No, no, no, the European Parliament

:28:54.:28:57.

proposal is short-term, Do you feel you know what Britain's

:28:58.:29:03.

negotiating position is on Single Market,

:29:04.:29:19.

on customs union? It's not our job, it's not our job,

:29:20.:29:21.

is the British job, the UK wants It's not the European Union against

:29:22.:29:25.

the UK, if they want to leave. The implementation Article

:29:26.:29:29.

50, what they want? They want to leave

:29:30.:29:31.

the European Union, they want a model as a Norway,

:29:32.:29:33.

a Switzerland or they want I don't know, after the election,

:29:34.:29:35.

the referendum, really, For me, it's important

:29:36.:29:43.

to achieve agreement. The problem in a way

:29:44.:29:53.

at the moment is we don't Staying in the EU, impossible

:29:54.:29:58.

because there is no consensus. We don't have a consensus

:29:59.:30:10.

on any one model... Nobody knows, it's

:30:11.:30:12.

possible to change. But there is no consensus on any

:30:13.:30:13.

model outside the EU. Could you offer us a thing

:30:14.:30:17.

that is outside the EU but allows us The problem is, what Mrs May, what

:30:18.:30:33.

the UK Government want to do, they want to leave Europe and nothing

:30:34.:30:37.

more or they want to have closer cooperation in the next year, an

:30:38.:30:41.

example is the cooperation between Europe and Norway. It's a good

:30:42.:30:44.

example. But nobody knows. Before the elections,

:30:45.:30:51.

the May position was very strong. Now, I think in the UK,

:30:52.:30:53.

the situation is more flexible, in my point of view

:30:54.:30:56.

but during the negotiation it is I think we don't have a final

:30:57.:30:58.

position in the UK. If the UK wants to achieve another

:30:59.:31:07.

agreement, it's possible to do it but we need to ask

:31:08.:31:18.

the European Union. We want to stay in agreement

:31:19.:31:20.

as a Switzerland or a Norway. In my opinion it's possible too

:31:21.:31:22.

but it's possible to decide on this For this I think it's important

:31:23.:31:33.

to know the real position of the UK. At times when I talked to him he

:31:34.:32:00.

sounded like someone who was trying to scare Britain but Brexit is

:32:01.:32:07.

scary. Let's find out what my guests think.

:32:08.:32:08.

Tom Nuttall is the Charlemagne columnist for The Economist.

:32:09.:32:11.

And Verena Schmitt-Roschmann is the Brussels bureau chief

:32:12.:32:13.

Look, it seems like today, lots of people have been saying, you can

:32:14.:32:24.

change your mind. Do they think we might change our mind? There may be

:32:25.:32:31.

some hope that the Brits might come to their senses because there isn't

:32:32.:32:37.

a clear notion about what Brexit means. The general line in the EU,

:32:38.:32:49.

think about it again. But we aren't necessarily expecting you to. Tom,

:32:50.:32:53.

it seems to have got more complex since the election because the

:32:54.:32:58.

original Theresa May Brexit had a certain sympathy to it. Do they

:32:59.:33:06.

think so as well? Yes, they were rather dismayed by the election

:33:07.:33:11.

because previously we knew that Britain wanted to leave the Single

:33:12.:33:14.

Market and Customs union and we were on course for what is known as a

:33:15.:33:19.

hard Brexit but now the process is shrouded in uncertainty. Will there

:33:20.:33:22.

be another election, will they still be negotiating with Theresa May and

:33:23.:33:27.

David Davis in six months' time, will be British policy remain the

:33:28.:33:31.

same? What they hoped would be a stable and orderly and discreet

:33:32.:33:35.

process looks rather uncertain. Does it feel that Britain is using up

:33:36.:33:40.

goodwill, it is burning through its credit of goodwill? I don't think

:33:41.:33:49.

so. The EU side have settled on the notion that we want to get on with

:33:50.:33:56.

it, get it over with. I think that's the main feeling, to start and Mac

:33:57.:34:00.

orderly process and you know, checked off different things. Do you

:34:01.:34:06.

think you can divide the 27? They have been quite united, they can't

:34:07.:34:11.

talk about anything without Michel Barnier's say so. They seem pretty

:34:12.:34:18.

unified and I wouldn't personally waste my time on it! There may be

:34:19.:34:25.

some kind of cracks but I think the main interest is to really get on

:34:26.:34:32.

with it. The EU has an interest in leaving the story behind and getting

:34:33.:34:40.

on. Where does this goal, do you think? It feels like it will be

:34:41.:34:45.

rather difficult to have a different kind of Brexit and yet it feels like

:34:46.:34:50.

we haven't quite settled on one. It's very hard to say, it's all

:34:51.:34:52.

about what happens in British politics now. We had the negotiation

:34:53.:34:58.

formally beginning this week when David Davis turned up in Brussels

:34:59.:35:03.

and sat down with Michel Barnier and spoke about money, citizens issues

:35:04.:35:09.

and Ireland and those issues will get into the nitty-gritty now we

:35:10.:35:12.

have this offer from the British government of citizens rights. As

:35:13.:35:16.

far as the European side is concerned they will proceed on the

:35:17.:35:20.

basis of what they hear from Britain but what they hear from Britain is

:35:21.:35:23.

there is another election, if Theresa May is overthrown, who knows

:35:24.:35:29.

what could happen, it could change and then we get into a complicated

:35:30.:35:33.

situation because the EU has created a negotiating stance on the basis of

:35:34.:35:36.

what it has heard from Britain so far. We'd better leave it there Mac.

:35:37.:35:44.

Thank you for joining us. If anybody was tired of Brexit because of the

:35:45.:35:48.

complexion news from Brussels, the next 18 months may be a

:35:49.:35:52.

disappointment. Back to you in London.

:35:53.:35:55.

It's been six months since the world's gaze

:35:56.:35:57.

For four brutal years, the people of the Syrian city endured

:35:58.:36:03.

unimaginable horrors as the bitter war between Assad's army

:36:04.:36:08.

and rebel forces played out, pounding the once elegant city

:36:09.:36:11.

The siege eventually ended in December when Syrian forces,

:36:12.:36:15.

Our colleagues at BBC Arabic commissioned four

:36:16.:36:21.

citizen journalists, opposed to Assad, to document

:36:22.:36:23.

Under siege, trapped with 200,000 others,

:36:24.:36:30.

with limited food, water and medicine, they filmed with small

:36:31.:36:33.

cameras and mobile phones as the battle for the city raged.

:36:34.:42:16.

That was part of a BBC Arabic production for

:42:17.:42:18.

You can see the full film, Goodbye, Aleppo, this weekend

:42:19.:42:23.

That's all we have time for - goodnight.

:42:24.:42:47.

Good evening. No doubt about it, the heatwave is over and we aren't

:42:48.:42:48.

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