Browse content similar to 22/06/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight, as the government tackles the use of Grenfell Tower-style | :00:00. | :00:10. | |
cladding in other local authority housing, Newsnight reveals that | :00:11. | :00:13. | |
a leading hotel chain is questioning the cladding on three | :00:14. | :00:16. | |
We'll get reaction from Parliament, the Fire Brigades Union, | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
Probably not Theresa May's favourite assignment, meeting other EU leaders | :00:22. | :00:33. | |
in her somewhat wee juiced circumstances. She put on a brave | :00:34. | :00:39. | |
face. Other Europeans have adopted a perplexed tone. I think, I don't | :00:40. | :00:49. | |
know what the British want. I am in Brussels and we'll be asking if the | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
Europeans are, for the moment, being polite but unhelpful. | :00:54. | :00:55. | |
And what was it like in Aleppo during the last days of the siege? | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
We follow local journalists as they leave their hometown. | :00:59. | :01:24. | |
The government confirmed this evening | :01:25. | :01:33. | |
that the number of high rise blocks of flats found to have combustible | :01:34. | :01:36. | |
cladding similar to that used on Grenfell Tower has risen | :01:37. | :01:39. | |
to 11, across eight local authorities. | :01:40. | :01:40. | |
But tonight, concerns about safety are extending | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
beyond the housing sector, into a leading hotel chain. | :01:45. | :01:47. | |
Premier Inn has told Newsnight that it is "extremely concerned" | :01:48. | :01:50. | |
about the cladding on three of its high rise hotels. | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
After an urgent review the company has advised this programme | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
that the developers responsible for the construction | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
of hotels in Maidenhead, Brentford and Tottenham had | :02:01. | :02:03. | |
installed cladding that Premier Inn says does not appear to comply | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
The Grenfell Tower still casts its shadow over Britain. Today the | :02:07. | :02:24. | |
government revealed that the external cladding on 600 buildings | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
is now being investigated. The house should be careful on speculation of | :02:30. | :02:32. | |
what caused the fire but as a precaution the government have | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
arranged to test cladding in all 11 tower blocks. Shortly before I came | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
to the chamber I was informed that a number of these tests have come back | :02:42. | :02:44. | |
as compost the ball. The relevant local authorities and services have | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
been informed and they are taking all possible steps to insure that | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
buildings are safe and to inform affected residents. Cladding was a | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
key issue at Grenfell, the building's outer skin was an | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
aluminium composite material which is quite common, bound around a core | :03:04. | :03:11. | |
of something. The best cladding has a minimal call which is completely | :03:12. | :03:18. | |
non-combustible but at Grenfell it was polyethylene, a plastic, which | :03:19. | :03:25. | |
may have let the fire spread so the government is looking at those at | :03:26. | :03:27. | |
600 buildings to see how many may have cladding width too combustible | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
A call. A new worrying element emerged today. A Camden tower block | :03:34. | :03:41. | |
contained a major fire back in 2012. Canned and believe this is because | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
they have a safer kind of cladding -- Camden. But they have revealed | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
that they were not supplied with the cladding they thought they had | :03:54. | :03:55. | |
bought for some of their buildings. We thought we were dealing with | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
reputable companies, we feel let down and the tenants feel let down. | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
My priority is to make sure that the tenants feel safe which is why we're | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
putting in place 24-7 fire wardens and to take down the extra panels. | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
Five towers are having cladding stripped off them. We know we have | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
13 of the taller buildings across Camden and these one the Leeds ones | :04:20. | :04:27. | |
in particular were clad as the same company as riding, who did the work | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
in Kensington, so it was top of our list, to look at the workmanship and | :04:33. | :04:39. | |
projects that we used and make sure we 100% sure that our residents are | :04:40. | :04:48. | |
safe -- as Rydon. I am in Maidenhead, Theresa May's | :04:49. | :04:50. | |
constituency and the building behind me is her local Premier Inn. It is | :04:51. | :04:57. | |
covered in cladding, specifically an aluminium composite material. If it | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
were being used as social housing it will have had to send a sample of | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
the cladding to the government for testing to ensure it was one of the | :05:07. | :05:09. | |
safe and not the unsafe forms of aluminium cladding but because it is | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
used as a hotel there is no such obligation. So we checked and this | :05:15. | :05:21. | |
hotel is one of three Premier Inns which the company says do not appear | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
to meet the required standards. They say that the developers were | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
responsible for the construction of the buildings. | :05:30. | :05:43. | |
Premier Inn also said that an independent expert has assured them | :05:44. | :05:52. | |
that those three hotels are safe to continue operating given their | :05:53. | :05:55. | |
evacuation plans and robust safety measures. Working out whether things | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
are compliant is surprisingly complex because people can | :06:01. | :06:02. | |
commission tests to prove that things work in certain scenarios, | :06:03. | :06:09. | |
so-called desktop studies. It is open to wiggle room in that the | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
criteria given for which tests should be used in the desktop study | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
are not laid down and it does not say who is qualified or is not | :06:18. | :06:24. | |
qualified to do such a study. A tougher building rule book is surely | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
already on the cards. A simple one may be wise as well. | :06:29. | :06:30. | |
You have singled out Premier Inn. Is it fair to do that? Not really at | :06:31. | :06:42. | |
all, to be honest. We had a list of buildings which we believed have | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
issues potentially with their cladding and we went to Premier Inn | :06:47. | :06:50. | |
and they were very honest and straightforward and replied | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
immediately after they had checked. It's important to stress that it is | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
not Premier Inn we should be worrying about. Furthermore it is | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
important to stress that the cladding they used is a fire | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
retardant cladding. It isn't of the sort that automatically meets all of | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
the codes but it isn't bad, not the stuff we think was used at Grenfell. | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
Furthermore, they have multiple escape routes in the hotels, alarms | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
in every room. There's no reason to be particularly worried about them. | :07:22. | :07:24. | |
It's unfortunate that we singled them out because they were so honest | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
with us when we went to them. It tells you that a lot of people don't | :07:29. | :07:31. | |
know what is at the heart of their cladding. No, absolutely. Nick, in | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
terms of the political ramifications, does it feel like the | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
government is on top of the scale of the problem? It has been a difficult | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
week for Theresa May because of what she described today as the | :07:47. | :07:49. | |
unimaginable scale of the tragedy, the woeful response on the ground | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
for which she apologised and her misjudgement in failing, on her | :07:55. | :07:57. | |
first visit, to meet the residents and their families, failure to win | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
their confidence and make a connection in the way that Jeremy | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
Corbyn did. Today was her first chance in Parliament to update MPs | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
properly since the election. She sends two significant signals. | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
First, she hears the concerns of the residents who say that this tragedy | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
highlights a really big point about our society, that people living in | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
the heart of London, living completely different and | :08:26. | :08:27. | |
fundamentally different lives to people in Westminster, that she | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
understands the concern. The second big signal she wanted to send, that | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
the government has a grip but there was an unfortunate moment this | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
morning when Number ten, as Chris reported, said that 600 high-rise | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
buildings have similar cladding to Grenfell Tower and it turns out it | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
was expanded tower blocks that had cladding. Downing Street at the | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
moment, not quite functioning properly. Yes, a bit of confusion. | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
We did invite the government onto the programme tonight | :09:00. | :09:00. | |
Instead, I'm joined by the Conservative | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
MP Sir David Amess, chair of the all-Party Parliamentary | :09:04. | :09:05. | |
Also with me is Matt Wrack, the general secretary | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
of the Fire Brigades Union, and Pilgrim Tucker from | :09:12. | :09:13. | |
the Grenfell Action Group which represented residents | :09:14. | :09:15. | |
I wanted to pick up on the back of Chris's piece, first with you, | :09:16. | :09:27. | |
David. This is not to retract from what we are learning about social | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
housing, which must be the priority but this discovery suggests there | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
could be a much wider problem with building regulation as a whole, | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
doesn't it? Absolutely and I'm shocked by what I've heard. The | :09:43. | :09:45. | |
committee is going to look at it very quickly. It's so frustrating | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
that we've been asking for the building regulations to be reviewed | :09:52. | :09:54. | |
every year and nothing at all has happened until now. I wanted to say, | :09:55. | :10:02. | |
before I came from my office in Westminster, Sajid Javid the | :10:03. | :10:05. | |
Communities Secretary sent all MPs a letter setting out in detail what he | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
is asking local authorities and housing associations to do. I am | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
reassured that the government has got a grip on the situation that | :10:14. | :10:22. | |
should haven't -- that shouldn't have happened. There is some | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
confusion about a desktop study, the criteria. We just don't know what | :10:28. | :10:35. | |
the law is, do we? We don't, but MPs, ministers are experts in these | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
matters -- they aren't experts, they depend on advice and the idea that | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
cladding should contain any element that is combustible is crazy. I | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
don't think people will understand that because it seems that we have | :10:49. | :10:55. | |
done via research, even, not just the scale of the problem was so | :10:56. | :10:58. | |
shocking but the fact that it happened at all in 2017, are we not | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
on top of fire regulation in the way that we thought we were? Clearly | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
not, from what has happened and what is unfolding across the country. You | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
mentioned research, one fact is that in terms of government commissioned | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
fire research, there is virtually no government commissioned fire | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
research in the UK. A team used to exist in the Department for | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
Communities and Local Government, but they have gone after the cuts. | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
If local authorities... The debate about cladding had been going on for | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
a long time, we submitted evidence to Parliament in 1999 about it. If | :11:35. | :11:41. | |
the Fire Services or local authorities identified this and | :11:42. | :11:44. | |
said, let's commissioned research, there is no want to go to because | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
every time you raise the issue, and David found this from a different | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
angle, you run into obstacles, you are placing obstacles in the way of | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
development, red tape and so on and that is the endless mantra. We come | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
from different angles but anyone who has raised issues about fire safety | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
will run into that brick wall. That's the irony. We talked on that | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
first night after the fire and the people who knew and had real worries | :12:13. | :12:15. | |
were those who had voices that were not being heard. Not being heard, | :12:16. | :12:21. | |
no. Is your sense that that is now changing? I don't believe that is | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
changing, I heard that Theresa May said she understood about inequality | :12:27. | :12:33. | |
and I don't think she can do. If she did she would rapidly start | :12:34. | :12:36. | |
reversing some of the Conservative legislation that has been enacted | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
since 2010. I'm really appalled, I'm still getting over hearing that | :12:43. | :12:51. | |
Rydon misled the council in terms of the cladding it was putting on the | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
building. That is shocking. Isn't that the problem that many of these | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
companies have contractors and subcontractors. Premier Inn were | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
very honest and tried to provide clarity but they don't know what is | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
on their building. Premier Inn owned the Hotel chain, it is not the | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
contractor putting it on. Rydon is the contractor, so they should know | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
what materials it is using. Local government should have the capacity | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
to scrutinise and oversee what contracts it is going into but it | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
doesn't and that's a consequence of these government cuts since 2010. | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
That's really the root cause of the killing of all of these people. Do | :13:35. | :13:40. | |
you think that the government should ask all of these departments...? | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
What happens in terms of who has to go to the government, to have their | :13:46. | :13:54. | |
cladding or materials fire checked? There our research stations that | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
perform tests on the materials, performing them in particular | :14:00. | :14:02. | |
circumstances and if you are a manufacturer you're going to make | :14:03. | :14:05. | |
sure that when your material is tested, you send the best fitters to | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
fit it in the way that you want it to be fitted, there will be a | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
technical sheet going out to the construction firm who fit it but the | :14:15. | :14:17. | |
question is, who is monitoring it as it is put on? That is, if it | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
complies with the regulations anyway. In this particular case, for | :14:22. | :14:28. | |
us there are questions about the design in which the cladding is | :14:29. | :14:30. | |
applied to the building because there seems to have been some | :14:31. | :14:33. | |
decorative boxing on each corner of the building. You're talking about | :14:34. | :14:39. | |
Grenfell? An Grenfell Tower, there are a host of questions and clearly, | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
people haven't got to grips with this. This is, I think it goes | :14:44. | :14:52. | |
longer, I think it has got worse since 2010 but the whole regime is | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
about deregulation, and anyone who raises safety concerns runs into | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
this brick wall. It is welcome to hear a bit of a U-turn today on some | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
of this but why it has taken a week to have this material tested, I | :15:09. | :15:15. | |
think people will be shocked. And when, as a Tory MP, UCB blame being | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
laid at the door of Conservative policies, do you refute any of that | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
or do you say that we have to look at the cuts and the way we have | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
regulated and our culture of prioritise intercutting of red tape | :15:30. | :15:32. | |
or whatever? With all of those things I accept | :15:33. | :15:39. | |
they must look at but I don't want to get into the party politics | :15:40. | :15:45. | |
really because 2008 there was an economic crash, 2009 the disaster | :15:46. | :15:48. | |
and that is when we should have taken action. In spite of the | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
resources local authorities have got already, this is not very good, it | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
does not reflect at all, local authorities should still be able to | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
do checks and there is something not right about this. Whether it is the | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
contractors or new products available, I am very pleased we are | :16:08. | :16:10. | |
going to have this enquiry when I think the truth will come out. There | :16:11. | :16:17. | |
will be residents, we now know 11 more towers, this is a very delicate | :16:18. | :16:20. | |
situation for the government and those people as well, what would | :16:21. | :16:28. | |
you, if they were calling you up now or see you as a voice for Grenfell | :16:29. | :16:31. | |
residents, what would you say, it's not just to do with the cladding | :16:32. | :16:34. | |
because there will be other precautions like sprinklers in place | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
would you say leave the tower and your home and now? Contact somebody | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
like Matt but you would want to start getting something like the | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
cladding taken down. That would be a sensible thing to do. I think so. It | :16:50. | :16:56. | |
was not cladding which caused the issues in 2009, it was what other | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
alterations? If we just focus on cladding we will miss out on other | :17:02. | :17:04. | |
operations which have affected fire safety within the building. There | :17:05. | :17:11. | |
may be a whole, a thorough audit of every single high-rise building and | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
London Fire Brigade today has altered the attendance of Fire | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
Services at calls to those premises, that should happen across the UK | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
immediately. Thank you all. We should mention that the contractor | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
in that discussion involved in the cladding of Grenfell Tower and in | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
Camden but they are not connected to Premier Inn just to clarify. | :17:34. | :17:36. | |
That's it from me for now - but now let's go over | :17:37. | :17:39. | |
Hello, from the Justus Lipsius building here in Brussels - | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
behind me the good folks of the media, excitedly | :17:44. | :17:46. | |
working on their stories from the European Council | :17:47. | :17:47. | |
It's the first time Theresa May has met all her counterparts | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
And to think, that was just two weeks ago. | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
Back then, she - we - thought she'd be here with a strong | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
personal mandate and voter backing for her version of Brexit. | :18:01. | :18:03. | |
Had that outcome pertained, Britain would certainly have had | :18:04. | :18:06. | |
a leader with unassailable authority to negotiate and sign | :18:07. | :18:08. | |
But now she finds herself a minority leader, coping | :18:09. | :18:16. | |
with crisis and anger at home, with a parliament unkeen | :18:17. | :18:18. | |
on her version of Brexit, and a nation utterly divided | :18:19. | :18:21. | |
So, it wasn't her strutting in with a big mandate, | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
but Emmanuel Macron of France, the new hero of the | :18:26. | :18:27. | |
Tonight, Mrs May told the others her proposals | :18:28. | :18:34. | |
for EU citizens in the UK, post Brexit; one step | :18:35. | :18:37. | |
Our diplomatic editor Mark Urban is with me. | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
Just about this offer which broke tonight, on UK citizens and their | :18:44. | :18:50. | |
rights, EU citizens and their rights? Theresa May hoping to regain | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
the initiative with this offer. Broadly, 3 million EU citizens in | :18:56. | :19:01. | |
the UK at the moment can all remain, through a five-year naturalisation | :19:02. | :19:04. | |
process they can in fact have all the same rights as all other UK | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
citizens whether that is education or medically speaking, whatever. The | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
second point is you could still arrive and start that five-year | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
clock, it gave a cut-off date somewhere between the Article 50 | :19:19. | :19:22. | |
declaration and the end of this process in 2019. We are already some | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
months into that and it's going to negotiation, it could still be | :19:29. | :19:31. | |
possible to arrive and start that five-year process. And a | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
streamlining of the process for naturalisation, some people have | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
complained about that, 85 pages, the UK Government will look again and | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
make it simpler. That is the package in effect. We are not getting a lot | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
of reaction to that because they do not want to get into negotiation | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
about that. It's not going to happen. No. The fascinating thing | :19:54. | :20:01. | |
about this summit is how awkward it always. You have 28 arriving, then | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
one has to leave at a certain point. We already knew that was happening, | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
add a couple of previous meetings but it's so awkward. Now these | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
concrete proposals are being made, the EU standing on its formal | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
position of seeing no, it's done through Michel Barnier and David | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
Davis, that is when the conversation will resume next week. They will not | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
give her any sort of proper reaction to her proposed packages. A whole | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
second level of awkwardness because of the outcome of the UK general | :20:35. | :20:36. | |
election where people see her weekend, they see things happening | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
like Philip Hammond the chance for this morning opening up all sorts of | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
possibilities, talking about three or four year transitional period. | :20:45. | :20:53. | |
Maybe past the date of a UK election before we know what the trading | :20:54. | :20:56. | |
terms will be and under what terms would be carry on during those three | :20:57. | :21:02. | |
or four years added onto the Article 52-mac years? That has led people | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
here to be more vocal and open things up to debate. | :21:07. | :21:17. | |
It's never been easy, getting the 28 to move | :21:18. | :21:19. | |
Now 27 are learning that there is something even harder. | :21:20. | :21:28. | |
Managing the departure of a nation from this place | :21:29. | :21:30. | |
Theresa May arrived, post-election a wounded antelope | :21:31. | :21:37. | |
to use a phrase coined by a Tory colleague - but hoping | :21:38. | :21:40. | |
We will be setting out how we propose to ensure that EU | :21:41. | :21:47. | |
citizens living in the UK have their rights protected | :21:48. | :21:49. | |
Hearing the different views emerging from within Theresa May's cabinet, | :21:50. | :21:58. | |
many of the European leaders arriving here are discarding | :21:59. | :22:06. | |
the usual protocol of not commenting on another states affairs | :22:07. | :22:09. | |
and giving their own version of what they think | :22:10. | :22:11. | |
I think if there is a continued link to the the internal market | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
and the customs union, in one form or another, | :22:16. | :22:17. | |
including accepting that it also means the court in Luxembourg, | :22:18. | :22:19. | |
if we could come to something like that, I am hopeful. | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
And reminding everyone of the wider interest, | :22:24. | :22:24. | |
TRANSLATION: For me, the future of the EU 27 takes | :22:25. | :22:31. | |
precedence over negotiating the UK's exit from the EU. | :22:32. | :22:41. | |
That spread of attitudes, from let's make Brexit | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
as soft as possible, to will you just get on with it, | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
runs through Europe's geographic and ideological axis. | :22:51. | :22:53. | |
But they have been able to rally around their early priorities | :22:54. | :22:55. | |
for negotiations and at the top of those, the rights of EU | :22:56. | :22:58. | |
I believe it is outrageous the way the government treats people | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
I mean, EU nationals, residing in the UK, and I am saying | :23:03. | :23:13. | |
this because all these people, they don't know if they will | :23:14. | :23:16. | |
still have the right to continue their life and work | :23:17. | :23:18. | |
They need clarity, predictability and I would add | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
In an attempt to answer that anger and move on the talks, | :23:25. | :23:33. | |
Theresa May arrived bearing an offer on EU citizens relating to UK | :23:34. | :23:36. | |
But given the strength of European views, they won't yield much, | :23:37. | :23:50. | |
particularly in the transitional phase of Brexit, | :23:51. | :23:51. | |
You want a lot of things that are impossible without accepting | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
the European Court of Justice jurisdiction, the whole transition | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
period which is practically the extension of what we call... | :24:01. | :24:08. | |
Here in Brussels, which is simply the European union law, | :24:09. | :24:10. | |
This is all under the supervision of the European Court of Justice | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
and if you want to maintain the certain rights for the citizens | :24:15. | :24:17. | |
and you want to have a transition period also that would allow | :24:18. | :24:20. | |
you to continue maybe also with some other rights, | :24:21. | :24:22. | |
then we cannot accept that there is no European Court of | :24:23. | :24:25. | |
Justice because the European Court of Justice is the only court | :24:26. | :24:28. | |
that we accept having the right to interpret European law. | :24:29. | :24:41. | |
There are plenty in Brussels who've become more pessimistic post UK | :24:42. | :24:43. | |
election about finding a way through Brexit. | :24:44. | :24:45. | |
But speaking for the 27 governments, the council president tried | :24:46. | :24:48. | |
The European Union was built on dreams that seemed | :24:49. | :24:51. | |
You may say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. | :24:52. | :25:06. | |
Having made her citizens rights pitch tonight to the 27, | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
Theresa May trudged out of the summit leaving the others | :25:11. | :25:12. | |
Their response will come via negotiator Michel Barnier, | :25:13. | :25:19. | |
a measure of the EU's determination to stick to its own | :25:20. | :25:21. | |
Mark Urban out and about in Brussels today. | :25:22. | :25:31. | |
A phrase that has been habitualy adopted by politicians in the last | :25:32. | :25:34. | |
few months in answer to any question at all, is "I've been | :25:35. | :25:37. | |
Theresa May used it a lot, and you have to say, | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
she was clear about Brexit in her Lancaster House | :25:42. | :25:43. | |
Earlier today I spoke to Antonio Tajani, he's the Italian | :25:44. | :25:51. | |
serving as President of the European Parliament. | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
He's not a Brexit negotiator as such, however he is a player | :25:56. | :25:58. | |
in all of this, as the parliament has to approve any deal. | :25:59. | :26:05. | |
I asked him if the negotiation had changed given the UK election | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
results. We will have the separation | :26:10. | :26:11. | |
between London and Brussels. And we need to achieve | :26:12. | :26:14. | |
agreement on the framework And then we need to start | :26:15. | :26:16. | |
for an agreement for the day after. I think after the British elections, | :26:17. | :26:32. | |
the situation for hard Brexit, For this, now it is | :26:33. | :26:34. | |
important to be pragmatic. As I said from the beginning, | :26:35. | :26:42. | |
it's important now to work also for paving the way | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
for the day after. And we start that now, we need | :26:47. | :26:52. | |
to start thinking about that. Exactly, the negotiations | :26:53. | :26:55. | |
are starting. We need to work for the future also | :26:56. | :26:58. | |
because the UK will leave the European Union but not Europe | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
and we need to cooperate in the future against terrorism, | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
against illegal immigration. Also on the defence sector | :27:07. | :27:14. | |
because the UK is a member of Nato. Trade as well, and you're | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
happy to start those talks fairly quickly now, | :27:19. | :27:21. | |
not waiting until But to start thinking about the | :27:22. | :27:23. | |
future relationship pretty quickly. No, we need before to decide | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
the framework of the separation. Second step, after the agreement | :27:29. | :27:32. | |
on the framework it's possible to start for an agreement | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
for the future. In my opinion it's possible | :27:38. | :27:40. | |
to achieve the goal But the separation, | :27:41. | :27:42. | |
end of next year? That means we don't start talking | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
about the future relationship No, no, no, for us it's important | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
before to decide the separation. After the separation | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
it's possible to speak, Do you feel Britain | :27:58. | :28:00. | |
knows what it wants now? Obviously we had an election | :28:01. | :28:06. | |
that was indecisive in some ways. I think, I don't know | :28:07. | :28:09. | |
what the British want. Probably they are against | :28:10. | :28:19. | |
the Brussels bureaucracy. A lot of problems, a lot of rules, | :28:20. | :28:27. | |
the power, the European Commission, a lot of people working, | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
civil servants, imposing rules. But I don't know if the British | :28:33. | :28:40. | |
are not very well... The situation, the day after, | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
without internal market. A lot of people are talking | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
about transitional arrangements. I mean, how long do | :28:51. | :28:53. | |
you think transitional No, no, no, the European Parliament | :28:54. | :28:57. | |
proposal is short-term, Do you feel you know what Britain's | :28:58. | :29:03. | |
negotiating position is on Single Market, | :29:04. | :29:19. | |
on customs union? It's not our job, it's not our job, | :29:20. | :29:21. | |
is the British job, the UK wants It's not the European Union against | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
the UK, if they want to leave. The implementation Article | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
50, what they want? They want to leave | :29:30. | :29:31. | |
the European Union, they want a model as a Norway, | :29:32. | :29:33. | |
a Switzerland or they want I don't know, after the election, | :29:34. | :29:35. | |
the referendum, really, For me, it's important | :29:36. | :29:43. | |
to achieve agreement. The problem in a way | :29:44. | :29:53. | |
at the moment is we don't Staying in the EU, impossible | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
because there is no consensus. We don't have a consensus | :29:59. | :30:10. | |
on any one model... Nobody knows, it's | :30:11. | :30:12. | |
possible to change. But there is no consensus on any | :30:13. | :30:13. | |
model outside the EU. Could you offer us a thing | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
that is outside the EU but allows us The problem is, what Mrs May, what | :30:18. | :30:33. | |
the UK Government want to do, they want to leave Europe and nothing | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
more or they want to have closer cooperation in the next year, an | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
example is the cooperation between Europe and Norway. It's a good | :30:42. | :30:44. | |
example. But nobody knows. Before the elections, | :30:45. | :30:51. | |
the May position was very strong. Now, I think in the UK, | :30:52. | :30:53. | |
the situation is more flexible, in my point of view | :30:54. | :30:56. | |
but during the negotiation it is I think we don't have a final | :30:57. | :30:58. | |
position in the UK. If the UK wants to achieve another | :30:59. | :31:07. | |
agreement, it's possible to do it but we need to ask | :31:08. | :31:18. | |
the European Union. We want to stay in agreement | :31:19. | :31:20. | |
as a Switzerland or a Norway. In my opinion it's possible too | :31:21. | :31:22. | |
but it's possible to decide on this For this I think it's important | :31:23. | :31:33. | |
to know the real position of the UK. At times when I talked to him he | :31:34. | :32:00. | |
sounded like someone who was trying to scare Britain but Brexit is | :32:01. | :32:07. | |
scary. Let's find out what my guests think. | :32:08. | :32:08. | |
Tom Nuttall is the Charlemagne columnist for The Economist. | :32:09. | :32:11. | |
And Verena Schmitt-Roschmann is the Brussels bureau chief | :32:12. | :32:13. | |
Look, it seems like today, lots of people have been saying, you can | :32:14. | :32:24. | |
change your mind. Do they think we might change our mind? There may be | :32:25. | :32:31. | |
some hope that the Brits might come to their senses because there isn't | :32:32. | :32:37. | |
a clear notion about what Brexit means. The general line in the EU, | :32:38. | :32:49. | |
think about it again. But we aren't necessarily expecting you to. Tom, | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
it seems to have got more complex since the election because the | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
original Theresa May Brexit had a certain sympathy to it. Do they | :32:59. | :33:06. | |
think so as well? Yes, they were rather dismayed by the election | :33:07. | :33:11. | |
because previously we knew that Britain wanted to leave the Single | :33:12. | :33:14. | |
Market and Customs union and we were on course for what is known as a | :33:15. | :33:19. | |
hard Brexit but now the process is shrouded in uncertainty. Will there | :33:20. | :33:22. | |
be another election, will they still be negotiating with Theresa May and | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
David Davis in six months' time, will be British policy remain the | :33:28. | :33:31. | |
same? What they hoped would be a stable and orderly and discreet | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
process looks rather uncertain. Does it feel that Britain is using up | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
goodwill, it is burning through its credit of goodwill? I don't think | :33:41. | :33:49. | |
so. The EU side have settled on the notion that we want to get on with | :33:50. | :33:56. | |
it, get it over with. I think that's the main feeling, to start and Mac | :33:57. | :34:00. | |
orderly process and you know, checked off different things. Do you | :34:01. | :34:06. | |
think you can divide the 27? They have been quite united, they can't | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
talk about anything without Michel Barnier's say so. They seem pretty | :34:12. | :34:18. | |
unified and I wouldn't personally waste my time on it! There may be | :34:19. | :34:25. | |
some kind of cracks but I think the main interest is to really get on | :34:26. | :34:32. | |
with it. The EU has an interest in leaving the story behind and getting | :34:33. | :34:40. | |
on. Where does this goal, do you think? It feels like it will be | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
rather difficult to have a different kind of Brexit and yet it feels like | :34:46. | :34:50. | |
we haven't quite settled on one. It's very hard to say, it's all | :34:51. | :34:52. | |
about what happens in British politics now. We had the negotiation | :34:53. | :34:58. | |
formally beginning this week when David Davis turned up in Brussels | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
and sat down with Michel Barnier and spoke about money, citizens issues | :35:04. | :35:09. | |
and Ireland and those issues will get into the nitty-gritty now we | :35:10. | :35:12. | |
have this offer from the British government of citizens rights. As | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
far as the European side is concerned they will proceed on the | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
basis of what they hear from Britain but what they hear from Britain is | :35:21. | :35:23. | |
there is another election, if Theresa May is overthrown, who knows | :35:24. | :35:29. | |
what could happen, it could change and then we get into a complicated | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
situation because the EU has created a negotiating stance on the basis of | :35:34. | :35:36. | |
what it has heard from Britain so far. We'd better leave it there Mac. | :35:37. | :35:44. | |
Thank you for joining us. If anybody was tired of Brexit because of the | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
complexion news from Brussels, the next 18 months may be a | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
disappointment. Back to you in London. | :35:53. | :35:55. | |
It's been six months since the world's gaze | :35:56. | :35:57. | |
For four brutal years, the people of the Syrian city endured | :35:58. | :36:03. | |
unimaginable horrors as the bitter war between Assad's army | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
and rebel forces played out, pounding the once elegant city | :36:09. | :36:11. | |
The siege eventually ended in December when Syrian forces, | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
Our colleagues at BBC Arabic commissioned four | :36:16. | :36:21. | |
citizen journalists, opposed to Assad, to document | :36:22. | :36:23. | |
Under siege, trapped with 200,000 others, | :36:24. | :36:30. | |
with limited food, water and medicine, they filmed with small | :36:31. | :36:33. | |
cameras and mobile phones as the battle for the city raged. | :36:34. | :42:16. | |
That was part of a BBC Arabic production for | :42:17. | :42:18. | |
You can see the full film, Goodbye, Aleppo, this weekend | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
That's all we have time for - goodnight. | :42:24. | :42:47. | |
Good evening. No doubt about it, the heatwave is over and we aren't | :42:48. | :42:48. |