Browse content similar to 23/06/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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I do not think it would be right for me to be the captain that steers our | :00:16. | :00:21. | |
country to its next dexter nation. We are living through an important | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
moment in our country's history. That is now statistically... | :00:26. | :00:32. | |
Notification from Prime Minister Theresa May triggering Article 50. | :00:33. | :00:39. | |
Mathematically they are... Every vote for the Conservatives will make | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
me stronger. They don't have an overall majority at this stage, but | :00:45. | :00:50. | |
the Leave campaign have won. This will go down in our history as our | :00:51. | :00:57. | |
Independence Day! Not in terms of the way people voted, because all | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
the we said it would be a close run thing, but in terms of the | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
turnaround for British foreign policy, British policy towards the | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
EU, the EU, the British people have spoken and the answer is we're out. | :01:08. | :01:18. | |
The vote to leave happened in a single day. | :01:19. | :01:20. | |
The moment of truth delivered one mesmerizing night. | :01:21. | :01:22. | |
Yet if anyone believed that decision would shut down debate on Europe - | :01:23. | :01:25. | |
A year on this country feels restless, febrile, | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
In 12 months we've seen it all - a change of leader, a general | :01:30. | :01:35. | |
election, attacks on our freedom and our way of life, | :01:36. | :01:37. | |
and the kind of human tragedy that makes us question the very values | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
When we voted for Brexit, we chose to steer this country | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
in a different direction - to tear up, as George Orwell might | :01:45. | :01:47. | |
say, the human mind and put it together in new shapes. | :01:48. | :02:01. | |
Yet suddenly the trajectory seems anything but clear. | :02:02. | :02:02. | |
So tonight we draw breath - we devote this evening, | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
the Brexit anniversary, to asking if we are the same country | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
And are we more or less divided on what we want? | :02:09. | :02:11. | |
But before we reflect on the past 12 months, | :02:12. | :02:14. | |
we assess the day - Mark Urban has followed | :02:15. | :02:16. | |
Emily, I think there has been an element of, thank God, we are now | :02:17. | :02:25. | |
moving on this. The move from Theresa May on citizens' rights was | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
tabled just before this anniversary day and it at least started | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
colouring what Britain means by Brexit, but overall it has not been | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
a very positive reaction, summed up by the person who represents the 27 | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
governments, well, 28 in fact, but in this case, the 27, EU President | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
Donald Tusk. My first impression is that the UK's | :02:47. | :02:48. | |
offer is below our expectations and that it risks worsening | :02:49. | :02:51. | |
the situation of citizens. But it will be for our negotiating | :02:52. | :02:53. | |
team to analyse the offer line by As a matter of fact, | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
Brexit got very little time We devoted most of our work | :02:58. | :03:07. | |
to addressing people's concerns over security, illegal migration | :03:08. | :03:10. | |
and uncontrolled globalisation. Well, there you have it. He is | :03:11. | :03:25. | |
saying, well, it doesn't look like it will preserve the rights they | :03:26. | :03:28. | |
have now, and you might say you do not expect that, if we are leaving | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
the EU, for everything to be exactly the same, but actually it is the | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
beginning of the negotiation, and he says we spent most of our time | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
talking about other stuff, we get it, game on. Doesn't tell you | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
anything about how negotiations are going in general? What it does tell | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
you is these two key issues where the EU 27 are absolutely united and | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
feel very strongly, Citizens' rights and the budget, where they are | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
determined to see substantial progress, and that will be a tough | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
initial negotiation. Some people in Downing Street are suggesting there | :04:04. | :04:06. | |
might be sufficient progress, to use the term coined, on those two core | :04:07. | :04:13. | |
issues, by October, to start addressing the bigger package, the | :04:14. | :04:16. | |
future relationship. I think that is incredibly optimistic. I mean, we | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
can see by the way they are now saying, let's pull apart this offer | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
on Citizens' rights line by line, bound to happen in negotiations of | :04:26. | :04:28. | |
this kind, the budget negotiations can be difficult, and all that is | :04:29. | :04:31. | |
tough and is going to take time, many months I think. I think it will | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
be a difficult process, a technical process, hard even sometimes to | :04:37. | :04:44. | |
follow but each tiny twist and turn of negotiations logic will tell us. | :04:45. | :04:46. | |
I am glad you said that, Mark. The Brexit referendum, | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
everyone says, revealed It just revealed those divisions | :04:50. | :04:51. | |
in statistical form. It is a year since | :04:52. | :05:07. | |
we bought our Brexit. But our flat packed | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
future did not come with any instructions as to how | :05:13. | :05:14. | |
to put the thing together, or even what it should | :05:15. | :05:17. | |
look like when it is So have we done little more | :05:18. | :05:19. | |
in the last 12 months than lay all the bits out on the carpet | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
and argue about what goes where? Everything that has happened | :05:24. | :05:26. | |
since the referendum, I would suggest, has compounded | :05:27. | :05:28. | |
those divides, rather We have just had a general | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
election that has seen a big polarisation around age - | :05:32. | :05:33. | |
we have seen youth turnout increase significantly, and we have seen | :05:34. | :05:36. | |
the pro-Remain areas mobilise significantly, much in a way | :05:37. | :05:43. | |
the pro-Leave areas mobilised, but the map of British politics now | :05:44. | :05:52. | |
is I think one that looks far away from the map of a nation | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
that is coming together. It is more like a map of a nation | :05:57. | :05:58. | |
that is being pulled apart. It will strengthen my hand in those | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
important Brexit negotiations. The fact that Theresa May didn't get | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
a majority has emboldened those who campaigned to remain to believe | :06:08. | :06:16. | |
that we can end up, not staying in the EU, | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
but with a very different I think that were Theresa | :06:23. | :06:24. | |
May to have got the overwhelming majority | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
that she hoped for, we would have known more or less | :06:29. | :06:29. | |
what the UK position was and therefore what the final | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
deal might be. I think the election puts | :06:33. | :06:34. | |
everything into doubt. I think parliamentary arithmetic | :06:35. | :06:36. | |
is not there for the kind of Brexit the Government was | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
pursuing and I think it is all to I don't understand why | :06:41. | :06:43. | |
people on the Remain side are feeling emboldened, | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
because if you look at the parties who are talking about, | :06:48. | :06:49. | |
for example, staying part of the single market | :06:50. | :06:51. | |
or having a second referendum, parties | :06:52. | :06:52. | |
like the Liberal Democrats, the Green Party, and the SNP, their vote | :06:53. | :06:55. | |
share actually went down in the general election, so I don't think | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
people on the Remain side should feel they have got any form | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
of mandate from the election. Indeed, there is little | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
evidence that the public have changed their minds on Brexit | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
in the year since the referendum. One poll since the general | :07:11. | :07:13. | |
election suggests a more or less even split between Remain | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
and Leave supporters, but around half | :07:17. | :07:29. | |
of Remain supporters, 26% of all voters, | :07:30. | :07:30. | |
are now dubbed Re-Leavers, | :07:31. | :07:37. | |
that is they think the Government now has a duty | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
to deliver on the referendum result | :07:41. | :07:42. | |
and that leaves just 21%, of so-called hard Remainers, | :07:43. | :07:44. | |
who want a second I think one key reason why support | :07:45. | :07:46. | |
from Brexit has gone from 52% last year to I would say | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
70% now in the polls is because some of the people who are on the Remain | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
side voted Remain because they feared for the economy, they | :07:55. | :07:57. | |
believed the Project Fear that the Government was talking | :07:58. | :08:00. | |
about and actually now they have seen that the economy | :08:01. | :08:03. | |
is doing well and that Brexit has not led to a collapse in growth | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
and an increase in unemployment, they are actually quite comfortable | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
with the decision that So how can it be that | :08:13. | :08:14. | |
Theresa May does not have a mandate for her Brexit plans | :08:15. | :08:17. | |
but there is no evidence that the British people had | :08:18. | :08:20. | |
changed their minds? Well, the answer seems to be | :08:21. | :08:22. | |
in Labour's extremely nuanced The fascinating thing | :08:23. | :08:24. | |
about Labour's performance in the election is that not only did | :08:25. | :08:27. | |
they see their vote go up typically by around | :08:28. | :08:30. | |
13 points in the most pro-Remain areas, but their vote | :08:31. | :08:37. | |
also went up by about half that much in the Leave areas and that is what | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
stopped Theresa May and her team from really converting all of that | :08:41. | :08:43. | |
pro-Brexit Labour territory into Conservative gains that would | :08:44. | :08:46. | |
otherwise offset their losses How on earth is that coalition | :08:47. | :08:48. | |
going to be sustained Because inevitably Jeremy Corbyn is | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
going to have to stand on the stage at some point and make a firm | :08:53. | :09:00. | |
position on free movement, the single market, | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
the customs union and so on. Brexit is not just being built | :09:04. | :09:05. | |
by Britain alone, but with the other EU members with | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
whom we are negotiating. Since our election, both | :09:09. | :09:10. | |
the French President and the President of the European Council | :09:11. | :09:12. | |
have suggested that the UK could in And they will have noticed comments | :09:13. | :09:20. | |
this week by the Chancellor Philip Hammond who appeared to contradict | :09:21. | :09:23. | |
Theresa May's assertion that no deal is better than a bad deal. He, it | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
appears, has in mind a long transitional arrangement. I think | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
the transition, and how we get to any final deal is really no in the | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
frame. The Chancellor Philip Hammond -- really now in the frame. The | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
Chancellor is saying, what do we want those arrangements to be? I | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
think the length of that transition is also really interesting. It could | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
be five years and some are saying up to ten years, making sure that the | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
transition is smooth, not some knee jerk change. But might at long | :09:56. | :10:01. | |
lingering goodbye to the EU risk a political backlash? I think a large | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
portion of the electorate will walk away from this entire exercise | :10:06. | :10:08. | |
feeling even more disillusioned and more frustrated, and I think and | :10:09. | :10:15. | |
fear that that outcome would be the equivalent of pouring gasoline on a | :10:16. | :10:24. | |
populist fire that is already raging. Hardly anyone is suggesting | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
packing up on Brexit and reversing the decision of a year ago, but the | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
29th of March 2019 is a date to keep in mind, that is when we leave and | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
something substantial has to be built. That was David Crossman. | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
Andrea Leadsom was one of the most prominent Leave campaigners - | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
she ran for the Conservative leadership in the heady days | :10:48. | :10:49. | |
after last year's referendum, only to be beaten by Theresa May. | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
She's now Leader of the House of Commons. | :10:53. | :10:54. | |
Earlier I spoke to her from her constituency | :10:55. | :10:56. | |
I began by Haskin what she thought of Donald Tusk's allegation that | :10:57. | :11:03. | |
Theresa May's proposal risk worsening the | :11:04. | :11:10. | |
situation of EU citizens. I think it was a generous offer and I think it | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
is also important that the EU Commission stick to their side of | :11:16. | :11:18. | |
the negotiations. You would not really expect them to say, thanks | :11:19. | :11:20. | |
very much, that's wonderful, so I think we will see a lot more of that | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
in the days to come. Isn't it funny, though, when we have Donald Tusk | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
saying it is not good enough, and you're the president of EU saying he | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
hasn't got a clue what the UK wants from Brexit, doesn't that worry you? | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
Not at all. As I said, when you are in a negotiation you don't | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
immediately jump around clapping your hands with glee at the first | :11:43. | :11:45. | |
sign. You do the opposite in fact. You see, that is not enough, we need | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
more, and that is what you would expect. But this should be a pretty | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
simple place to start, and we are a Uronen, as you have said, from that | :11:56. | :11:58. | |
vote, and they can't agree on the first thing they are trying to talk | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
about. Do you think that is just politics? -- we are one year on, as | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
you have said. Theresa May give her a very initial comments to the | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
meeting of the EU Council to explain to them the generous offer that we | :12:12. | :12:14. | |
will be making, which is right that we should do that. We want to do it. | :12:15. | :12:20. | |
And of course EU negotiators will start off by saying, you know, we | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
need to see the detail, it's a good start but... You would expect that. | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
I think we will see a lot of the negotiations and the sort of | :12:29. | :12:32. | |
handling of negotiations is going to be a challenging time, but we are | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
determined to continue with a good relationship with our EU friends and | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
colleagues. We are weaker than ever before. She has gone to the country, | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
she didn't get the mandate she wanted and she does not have a | :12:46. | :12:48. | |
strong position from which to negotiate. That is the blunt truth. | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
Well, you know, Theresa May isn't of course satisfied with the majority | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
that we managed to get at the last election, but we are the biggest | :12:58. | :13:03. | |
party in government. It is not just our opportunity but it is also our | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
duty to create a government, to take this country forward, to do | :13:09. | :13:11. | |
everything we can to make a success of leaving the EU. We've done a huge | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
amount of work on preparations for these negotiations, our hand is very | :13:17. | :13:17. | |
strong. You've got a negotiating position | :13:18. | :13:18. | |
which is completely unclear. You're hearing that from | :13:19. | :13:21. | |
the president of the EU Parliament. We've got a political | :13:22. | :13:23. | |
system which is unstable, many believe our economy is unfair, | :13:24. | :13:25. | |
living standards are falling. What can you point to now | :13:26. | :13:28. | |
and say, that's going well? European politicians are actually | :13:29. | :13:44. | |
very keen we keep a strong relationship going for and that is | :13:45. | :13:45. | |
what we going to do. And it's actually the elected | :13:46. | :13:52. | |
politicians who are the important But come on, Miss Leadsom - | :13:53. | :13:54. | |
you haven't even got a deal They're laughing at us and saying | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
they can walk all over Well, that's blatantly | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
not true, is it? Angela Merkel said it was | :14:04. | :14:05. | |
an interesting start. We had Mark Rutte saying | :14:06. | :14:07. | |
he was quite positive We had various different EU | :14:08. | :14:09. | |
politicians, the elected politicians, saying it's | :14:10. | :14:12. | |
a good start. Of course it's very | :14:13. | :14:14. | |
early days, but... It has been a year and | :14:15. | :14:16. | |
these crucial issues... It would be helpful if broadcasters | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
were willing to be a bit patriotic - This government is | :14:21. | :14:23. | |
determined to deliver... Are you accusing me of being | :14:24. | :14:26. | |
unpatriotic for questioning how negotiations are going, | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
questioning whether you have the position of strength | :14:31. | :14:31. | |
that she said she wanted? I'm not accusing you | :14:32. | :14:34. | |
of anything, Emily. I'm simply saying we all need | :14:35. | :14:37. | |
to pull together as a country. We took a decision and year ago | :14:38. | :14:40. | |
today to leave the European Union. You are now a minority Government | :14:41. | :14:53. | |
but you're reading of the public mood is to push on with the same | :14:54. | :14:56. | |
plans for Brexit that you always had. Is that right, nothing has | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
changed in your mind? As the Prime Minister said, we are leaving the | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
EU. We are not leading Europe. So our negotiation to deliver a strong | :15:06. | :15:08. | |
deal that works for all of us remains absolutely at the heart of | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
what we are doing. Do you regret that the election was called? I | :15:13. | :15:29. | |
don't at all. Of course we don't have the numbers in Parliament, we | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
accept that and of course we are disappointed about that, but what it | :15:34. | :15:35. | |
means... The whole direction of Brexit is now up in the air. You | :15:36. | :15:38. | |
know that. If I can just finished... You didn't get a huge majority. This | :15:39. | :15:41. | |
was a sign from the country that they are questioning it. Over 85% of | :15:42. | :15:43. | |
people voted for parties that were accepted the result of the | :15:44. | :15:45. | |
referendum last year. What we actually now have is a government | :15:46. | :15:48. | |
that will be listening so carefully across parties, hearing what other | :15:49. | :16:01. | |
partiesparties' ideas are, working to try to get the legislation | :16:02. | :16:08. | |
through... Angela M, thank you. -- Andrea Leadsom, thank you. | :16:09. | :16:17. | |
Whether you took your numbers from the side of a bus, | :16:18. | :16:20. | |
or read encyclopaedically from the Office for | :16:21. | :16:21. | |
Budget Responsibility, the Brexit campaign was brashly | :16:22. | :16:23. | |
and noisily centred around the economy. | :16:24. | :16:24. | |
A year on the pound has slumped, manufacturing has jumped, | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
the markets are up but so is inflation. | :16:31. | :16:32. | |
So what exactly has the prospect of Brexit done to us? | :16:33. | :16:34. | |
Our policy editor Chris Cook brings his numbers to it. | :16:35. | :16:37. | |
The economic consequences of Brexit will take years to play out, | :16:38. | :16:39. | |
but what can we say about what's happened so far? | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
Now, it hasn't been terribly quick lately, and things have slowed | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
down a little recently, but behaviour since June last year | :16:48. | :16:50. | |
it is not markedly different to what went before. | :16:51. | :16:52. | |
You get a similar pattern if you look at unemployment - | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
it was drifting down before last June, it's drifting down now. | :16:58. | :17:00. | |
The biggest economic consequence so far, though, | :17:01. | :17:06. | |
Sterling dropped down a step in June last year, | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
and despite recovering a little it remains 12.5% below the position | :17:13. | :17:15. | |
it held in the month before the referendum. | :17:16. | :17:21. | |
Cheaper sterling makes imports more expensive, so one consequence | :17:22. | :17:23. | |
This is the annual rate of change in the consumer price index, | :17:24. | :17:29. | |
which has shot up to nearly 3%, and that in turn has | :17:30. | :17:32. | |
Once you take account of that inflation, this graph shows how fast | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
wages have been growing, and in recent months | :17:39. | :17:40. | |
we have returned to falling living standards. | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
This is hardly unprecedented - in recent years sluggish or negative | :17:46. | :17:48. | |
pay growth has been one of our top problems. | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
The Brexit vote, though, seems to have rekindled | :17:53. | :17:54. | |
So are we the same country that voted to leave 12 months ago. | :17:55. | :18:06. | |
Is the optimism of the Brexiteers and the scepticism of | :18:07. | :18:09. | |
Should we put those terms to bed once and for all? | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
Joining me now, journalist Jonathan Freedland and Kerry Anne Mendoza - | :18:14. | :18:15. | |
editor of the Canary - who voted remain. | :18:16. | :18:17. | |
Tim Martin - Chairman of Wetherspoons and Robert Toombs | :18:18. | :18:19. | |
the historian who voted to Leave the EU. | :18:20. | :18:28. | |
It is a pleasure to have you all here. Tell you wrote frequently for | :18:29. | :18:35. | |
Wetherspoon news and played as big a part as anyone in this debate. Do | :18:36. | :18:43. | |
you think you lead your customers in the right direction? I would hope | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
that we did. In the paper which is read by a couple of million people, | :18:49. | :18:55. | |
we put the views of Remain and Leave and I think we presented it fairly | :18:56. | :19:02. | |
and I would like to think that we decided the referendum and the | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
election. Your editorial voice was very strong in bringing people with | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
you on the road to Brexit? It is difficult to say how many are | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
brought. A lot of people think about say something, they do the opposite. | :19:16. | :19:21. | |
Do you see yourself now as a reliever or would you say that the | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
defining question is no longer whether we are in or out, do you | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
feel that we have moved on. We have bigger questions to answer. Theresa | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
May call the election saying that she needed a mandate to conduct | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
these negotiations and she has lost that mandate and he said that the | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
alternative was a Coalition of chaos, that is another broken | :19:43. | :19:48. | |
promise. Now we have the utter chaos, no Coalition. The | :19:49. | :19:51. | |
Conservative government in recent years has delivered a zombie economy | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
and now we have a zombie government clinging onto power. We are told by | :19:58. | :20:00. | |
people around Theresa May that she has a profound sense of duty and I | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
think if that is true, she needs to do the dutiful thing and resign. | :20:05. | :20:11. | |
This, Jonathan, this has become a different debate, it is about values | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
and austerity, not really about our connection to the EU any more. I | :20:16. | :20:22. | |
think all roads come back to that. The fundamental question of our | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
relationship with Europe. That will be the dominant question. We have of | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
government committed to extricating us from the European Union on a | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
timetable that now looks realistic. The climate of the country I think | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
has changed. I can think of a couple of examples. One is the election of | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
Donald Trump. If you imagine that choice now, leave the European Union | :20:47. | :20:49. | |
and trade with America, that was one kind of argument when President | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
Obama was in the White House, now it is a completely different argument. | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
If you think it was the other way round, it would be a different | :21:00. | :21:02. | |
answer? It is hypothetical. The climate would have been different. | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
Young people. They turned out in big numbers and we know that last year | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
they did not do it incomparable numbers. Had they, we know that | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
their inclination was towards Remain. Those facts mean that the | :21:18. | :21:23. | |
climate has changed. One of the most powerful things said was on the | :21:24. | :21:26. | |
Leave side, David Davis said our democracy has the right to change | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
its mind, otherwise it is not a democracy. There are these impish | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
overtures from European leaders saying that the door is still open, | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
everyone, I can be a dreamer, are they trying to stir up trouble? Or | :21:41. | :21:47. | |
are they saying, you can treat this still as a democracy and change your | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
mind again? How do you read that? I think the EU leaders, are thoroughly | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
committed to the EU as an idea and it is difficult for them to | :21:58. | :22:00. | |
understand that we might not be. The EU has a record of getting countries | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
to change their minds once they have voted and it is natural for them to | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
think like -- that we like the Dutch, the French and the Danes | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
might change our mind. They are also trying to weaken the bargaining | :22:14. | :22:16. | |
position of the government. They will not offer us more than they | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
have to. That is why I think the danger of our present situation is | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
this appearance of uncertainty. If you are uncertain, then the people | :22:26. | :22:28. | |
who disagree with you will take advantage. Do you think, Robert, | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
that the key issue is that we have at a referendum on if we Brexit but | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
no one has had a chance to vote on the Brexit that will happen? The | :22:39. | :22:44. | |
negotiations have started, still with the British public completely | :22:45. | :22:47. | |
in the dark about what Brexit looks like. Shouldn't there be another | :22:48. | :22:50. | |
Democratic intervention down the line? The thing about another vote | :22:51. | :23:01. | |
is, the decision was subcontracted to the people to say, do you want to | :23:02. | :23:07. | |
stay or leave? They voted to leave. They could not have known the exact | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
terms and the government today cannot know the exact terms. I think | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
people make too much about what the exact terms will be. It is the | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
difference between do you want to move house or do you want to move | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
into this house. Once people decide who has, it is a decision but they | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
would not buy the next hours without seeing it. They took that risk. | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
People said, we have not seen the house but we are moving. What you're | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
pointing to now is still this sense of division in the country and I am | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
wondering if you think we're any closer to reconciliation now one | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
year on whether you think post that election it feels wider than ever. I | :23:48. | :23:54. | |
think it depends on getting decent terms. In that case, it seems to be | :23:55. | :24:00. | |
that is the only thing that can bring about reconciliation. The | :24:01. | :24:03. | |
number of people who are determined to stay in the EU is quite a small | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
proportion of the population and the majority that were either for Leave | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
or at least lukewarm about the EU and afraid of the economic | :24:14. | :24:16. | |
consequences, if we get a solution that shows that the economic | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
consequences are firmly OK, then I think that the fear and the | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
rejection of the idea of Brexit were largely disappear. I think you're | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
talking rationally but when you hear a politician aligning patriotism | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
with support for Brexit negotiations, I am wondering, I | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
don't know, what you feel? That was incredibly unhelpful. I think the | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
whole language that this referendum has been conducted and has been | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
appalling. You cannot call people who voted for Brexit ignorant bigots | :24:48. | :24:55. | |
and the ones who voted Remain elitists and unpatriotic. There were | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
legitimate reasons to vote each way and now all other should be working | :25:00. | :25:05. | |
together. I agree but I want to say something about your reconciliation | :25:06. | :25:08. | |
point because that was beginning to happen even on the Remain side. | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
People budget was about to win a majority and she would negotiate | :25:14. | :25:16. | |
hard Brexit, we were just going to have to get but the programme. Then | :25:17. | :25:20. | |
there was the result of the election, she offered no other | :25:21. | :25:24. | |
positive programme. She asked for the mandate and the country said no. | :25:25. | :25:33. | |
85% of people voted for parties which were in favour of Brexit. You | :25:34. | :25:40. | |
hear it as a soft Remainer -- Remainer vote. Labour's position was | :25:41. | :25:49. | |
both at once. It was both Remain and Leave. That is one of the reasons | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
they did well. That was the reading initially. Actually, only 18% of | :25:54. | :26:03. | |
former Ukip voters went to Labour. Where was Ukip in the whole thing? | :26:04. | :26:11. | |
Both the main parties said we are in favour of Brexit and 85% of people | :26:12. | :26:14. | |
voted for them and you cannot turn around now and say there is doubt | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
about whether the country is in favour of Brexit. Maybe there is an | :26:20. | :26:25. | |
element of hypocrisy on both side... You're being very consolatory | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
tonight. Contrary to popular opinion. The whole Brexit argument | :26:31. | :26:38. | |
was predicated on the idea of democracy, about taking back | :26:39. | :26:41. | |
control, but the British public having their say and they do not | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
think we can then say, it is somehow anti-democratic to give the public | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
another say... Did Remainers feel they were pulling against the | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
national mood, was there an embarrassment before the election | :26:57. | :26:59. | |
that has now changed? You would have been quiet about the fact, maybe not | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
quite, but Remainers would not felt comfortable saying that they still | :27:06. | :27:08. | |
disagree. It would sound as if you are trying to turn the clock. The | :27:09. | :27:14. | |
election shows that everything is up for grabs. You have seen the | :27:15. | :27:20. | |
trajectory of history. Do you see this as another turning point? Yes. | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
A sort of turning point or it could be. The problem is of uncertainty. | :27:26. | :27:32. | |
Democracy is a wonderful thing. Thinking practice of what would | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
happen if you were to have a second vote. All of our partners in the EU | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
would say these people do not know what they want, give them a hard | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
deal and they will vote to stay in. We do not control the terms of the | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
outcome and to start saying, we have devoted on the outcome means that we | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
will almost certainly get a bad outcome. What is the alternative. We | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
will get a terrible deal and we will have to swallow it. There is no | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
terrible deal we can get, the worst deal you can get is to trade on | :28:02. | :28:06. | |
World Trade Organisation. It is not a bad deal. We trade with America, | :28:07. | :28:14. | |
China, India... 44% of our experts do not rely on America. This is | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
almost the impossible one. I want to come back to a sense of national | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
mood. We are in a place now where it feels like wave after wave, a period | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
of national sharks whether it is political earthquakes or security | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
scares off human disasters, leaving many questioning our values now. Do | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
you feel as you sit here tonight that there is a bright future for | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
this country, a sort of cohesive place that we are going? Briefly. | :28:43. | :28:48. | |
The only thing we have to fear is fear itself. There is no reason to | :28:49. | :28:51. | |
think that the country is in a long-term crisis. I agree with Jim, | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
there is no reason to think that the outcome will be economically | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
damaging. If we stick to our guns, perhaps that is to military a | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
metaphor, if we follow a sensible and decent negotiating strategy | :29:06. | :29:08. | |
there is no reason to think we should not have a good outcome. One | :29:09. | :29:13. | |
of the big arguments after the referendum and during it was the | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
notion that there were two tribes in this country, there were the urban | :29:18. | :29:20. | |
and cosmopolitan people and then there were those who still had | :29:21. | :29:23. | |
British values of community. We have seen in areas that would have been | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
labelled classic urban and cosmopolitan areas, we saw them | :29:29. | :29:34. | |
those are real communities were people really pulled together, there | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
is no monopoly on patriotism and reddish values on either side. On | :29:40. | :29:41. | |
that note, we must end. But before we go, legendary cricket | :29:42. | :29:44. | |
commentator Henry Blofeld today After the exceptional heat, things | :29:45. | :30:08. | |
have gone back to normal. Just in time for the Wigan. Quite a mixed | :30:09. | :30:12. | |
picture. Across England and Wales there will be large areas of cloud. | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
Some patchy rain at times, some | :30:17. | :30:18. |