26/06/2017 Newsnight


26/06/2017

With Emily Maitlis. New revelations about the fire in Grenfell Tower. Plus the latest on Europe, the DUP, the London Bridge attack and the anniversary of Harry Potter.


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Transcript


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Tonight, we reveal how the organisations we trust

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to maintain standards in the construction industry have

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The reason why so many high rises have failed to pass fire safety

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tests in England is that the building industry has been writing

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rules for itself. We'll hear from the former

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Housing Minister. Hate you. Oh, come on. Hate you

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Richard. Why did Anjem Choudhry invite us?

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Richard Watson's been following the activities

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of the notorious Islamist group Al-Muhajiroun for the last 16 years.

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In light of London Bridge, has the state failed to realise how

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widespread the influence of such groups has been?

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The figure of 23,000, which has recently been released by MI5, has

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been people they're concerned about being involved in some way in

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jihadist activity. It's probably the tip of the iceberg. It is a huge

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number. And on Harry Potter's

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20th birthday, we talk to the original book publishers -

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who replaced Joanne Rowling with JK. For the first six months, until she

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was interviewed on Blue Peter, so she was revealed as a woman, all the

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fan mail had been addressed to "dear Sir" Because I opened it.

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The Government has confirmed today that samples of aluminium panels,

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from all 75 buildings that had been sent for fire retardancy

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And tonight, Newsnight can reveal how the organisations tasked

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with enforcing building regulations are in fact helping contractors

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The revelations point to a systemic failure of the very structures put

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So the big thing to understand here is that the Government has written a

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big set of regulations that cover tall buildings. They've set out one

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very simple rule really with cladding. Specifically, they said

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that basically everything you bolt to the outside of a building has to

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meet basic fire safety tests. They have to be of grade A 2, what A 2

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means it has to be either limited combustibility or better, not

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combustible at all. What we found is that the building industry has been

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writing guide lineds to assist -- guidelines to assist builders as

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they interpret the rules. The guidelines don't say these are the

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minimum standards. They often effectively allow you to go beneath

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the standards. For example, we've revealed tonight in a film you're

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about to see a problem, a vulnerability in the regulation as

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rising from the fact that one of the major bodies that enforces building

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regulations has written a rule set that says - we know the Government

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says A 2 is the standard of material you're usually required to put on a

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tall building, you know what, if you use B category cladding and B

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category insulation, that is to say stuff that is less fire proof than

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the minimum standard allowed by the Government, that's going to be fine.

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We'll sign that off. That's quite troubling. Actually, it points to a

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larger problem. It helps explain why so many of these buildings are now

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failing fire tests. I've made a film that explains some of these issues

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more fully. Cladding is starting to come off building across England,

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because it's not to code. In Islington the external panels of

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this council owned property are coming down already because they

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were deemed insufficiently fire proof by an official Government test

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and they're hardly alone. I can inform the House that as of mid-day

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today the cladding from 75 high rise buildings in 26 local authority

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areas has failed the combustibility test. The Government's official

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building regs lagss are set out in approved document B. That says that

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inhalation products attached to the outside of buildings more than 18

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metres tall must meet stringent fire standards, specifically they must be

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of materials that are non-combustible or limited

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combustibility. That is what these tests are all about. How then can it

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be that buildings have been fitted with cladding that doesn't meet that

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requirement? Building inspectors don't always rely directly on the

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rules set by the Government. The inspectors, who these days are

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largely privately employed, use guidelines to the rules written by

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professional bodies representing the sector. It's been some time since

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the relevant regulations were updated and the industry has to keep

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up with changing technology, changing customer demands. It has to

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turn to its specialists to consultants for advice on these

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issues because it can't depend on the regulation as loan. These sector

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You rig up your proposed cladding as it would be used and then see what

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happens when it's exposed to fire. If the system as a whole performs

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well, it's signed off. Even if individual parts would fail on their

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own. So some of the cladding failing tests right now may have been

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rigorously tested as part of a system. There are, though, rather

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less rigorous routes. If no actual fire test data exists for a

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particular system, the client may instead submit a desk top study

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report from a suitable body stating whether, in their opinion,

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combustibility criteria would be met. That's guidance from the

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building control alliance, the BCA, a body representing the great and

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good of building. Builders can use data from old tests to get

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combustible signed off in new scenarios without doing further fire

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tests. This opaque process is a vulnerability in the compliance

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process. Newsnight has found another weakness in the regulation. This is

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a piece of guidance from the NHBC, a sector body and a major supplier of

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building inspectors. What it says is that rather than everything needing

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to be A 2, you can use B grade cladding and B grade insulation

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material without even needing a desk top study. That is because, they

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say, there have been so many desk top studies and so many fire tests.

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In essence, they've decided that the Government's rules are too strict.

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NHBC said this guidance was issued...

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They also stressed that thorough assessments by inspectors haven't

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allowed the use of plastic cord cladding, such as used at Grenfell,

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under this guidance. Earlier tonight we learned that one of the

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insulation products with B grade cladding is actually C grade

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insulation. That guidance takes us a long way from A 2. Does it much

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matter legally that builders follow sector guidelines not Government

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rules? Well, yes. In the event of a civil case, the sector guidelines

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would matter. Yes, it does, because breach of the regulations would be

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very strong evidence in a civil claim against a builder. However, in

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the absence of up to date regulations, in the absence of

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clarity, then general guidance, compliance with general guidance

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could be a defence. So the building codes are a mess. And the Government

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is slow to update its regulations. But had contractors just stuck with

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them, they would now be pulling less cladding off high rises.

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David Lammy is the Labour MP for Tottenham.

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He lost a friend, the artist Khadija, in the fire at Grenfell.

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He claimed at the weekend that the published estimate of 79

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deaths in the fire is "far, far too low" and that a failure

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to provide updates of the true number that died is feeding

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suspicion of a cover up among survivors and local residents.

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I asked him earlier if he himself believed the authorities

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The 79 figure which has now stood for a week does not accord

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with those who lived down there and say but the survivors...

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in one flat alone, people say there were up to 40 people gathering

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There are lists you can use, DWP lists for those on benefits.

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For the local authority, you can assess how many kids have

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showed up for school or not showed up for school.

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You can speak to the mobile phone company.

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Who's been on their phone at 12 o'clock before the fire started?

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There are ways in which you can assemble lists

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When you have tragedies of this kind that could have been prevented...

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We know from Hillsborough and other affairs in our national life,

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that governments, local authorities, big corporations, companies,

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That's why I raised issues around the documentation.

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Have the police seized documents yet?

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In this case, we know nothing about whether that's happened.

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And it doesn't really matter what I think.

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It matters what people on the ground think.

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It does matter what you think because you are

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For example, you have tweeted that dozens of people, residents,

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saw dozens of people, jump from windows and nobody has

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Nobody has found more than that outside.

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Emily, I am being honest about what people have said to me.

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I was not standing outside of Grenfell Tower, watching my

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neighbours jump and burn to death but I've heard those people,

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and we should validate what they are saying.

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If you're saying I should say nothing, I'm afraid

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I'm just trying to get to the bottom of whether you actually think

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it's a cover-up and, if so, why would authorities

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What people say is if you put the numbers out early,

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there could be civil unrest, that's what they say.

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I'm just saying, by repeating it and by tweeting it,

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you are giving people a sense that that is where you stand -

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I'm going to walk alongside those people.

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Do you think that K and C is trying to cover up the numbers?

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Do you think the police or fire and emergency services are covering

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up the number of people that jumped out of that tower on that night?

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People on the ground say they saw more than has been suggested.

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And do you think the number of dead is not being revealed

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because you worry it will lead to civil unrest?

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The truth is, the media cycle is now beginning

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What people say is, in two, three weeks' time, if you start

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to reveal the numbers, things have moved on.

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You could turn round and say, I understand how painful

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You know better than I do that some of the homes were sublet.

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Some people have not been as happy to come forward,

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even if they have survived, even if they know people survived,

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because they may not have a legal status either in the building

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This is the sixth richest economy in the world.

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If we have not assembled the list of the landlords

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in the building, then what the hell are we capable of doing?

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If we can't put together a benefits list, a school's list,

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ask local hospitals, GPs, who also have their list.

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That's what the Government is trying to do.

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I've not heard that communication from government.

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If you have, thanks for enlightening me but I haven't heard it.

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So, is it that you just need to hear them saying we're doing this now?

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Presumably that is the work that's going

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Two major deals were put before the country today:

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one concerning the UK's relationship with Europe and how Europeans

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are allowed to settle here after Brexit, the other an act

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of self-preservation for the Conservative Government itself.

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Theresa May signed a ?1 billion deal - or ?100 million for each

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of the ten DUP votes needed for her Government to reach

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the majority needed to secure its position.

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The Tories will be hoping this down payment to the whole

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of Northern Ireland will give them a lifeline now and the chance to get

:13:42.:13:45.

But there's deep unhappiness around many of the UK's nations and regions

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Our political editor, Nick Watt, is here.

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The criticism really revolves around two key points. The deal has the

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potential to destabilise the Northern Ireland peace process. The

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point you are saying, it runs counter to the settlement dating

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back to the 1970s, known as the Barnett Formula, designed to ensure

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fair funding in the four parts of the UK. There have been complaints

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from Scotland and Wales. On the funding, the UK Government is saying

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the same called Barnett consequence. The process ensuring the fair

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funding, that is triggered when extra spending is committed in

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England. It doesn't happen in reverse. They also say there has

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always been special funding in exceptional circumstances with parts

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of the UK. They are saying this process has funded city deals in

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Scotland and is now being used to build up infrastructure and the NHS

:14:42.:14:46.

in Northern Ireland, which obviously the spending fell behind during the

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troubles that Sinn Fein has welcomed any extra money for Northern Ireland

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but Gerry Adams has made very clear that, as far as the peace process is

:14:58.:14:59.

concerned, Sinn Fein will be looking very clear -- carefully to make sure

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there is nothing going forward that favours the DUP in dealing with the

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legacy of those Troubles. We also got clarification on the EU citizens

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still stop some of the details came through. Theresa May outlined what

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she called a tremendous offer to the EU citizens living in the UK, in the

:15:22.:15:26.

hope of guaranteeing the 1 million UK citizens living in the rest of

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the EU. We learned those 3 million EU citizens living here will be

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eligible for settled status which will allow them to enjoys similar

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rights to which they have now. If they have been in the country for

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five years and an unspecified cut-off point where they can apply

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for that status. Not been here for five years they can go on a path to

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get that status. That will mean having a formal identity card. David

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Davis campaigned against those the year ago. These will be virtual ID

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cards with that data stored in a Home Office computer. The EU chief

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to go shader is not happy for them he says it does not go far enough.

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He says projection and oversight by the European Court of Justice. That

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is a step too far for the UK. Trying to work out what the settled status

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meant. Earlier I spoke to Brandon Lewis, the Immigration Minister.

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He's the Immigration Minister and previously served as both

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Housing Minister and Fire Services Minister.

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I began by asking what "settled status" would mean.

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Settled status will be lifelong. We are going to bring forward an

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outline of what the process will be next year. It will be very light

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touch, probably using digital technology as much as we can. We

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want to have a very simple system for people. Not being caught up in

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terms of documents was make it very light touch. Is that you ruling out

:17:10.:17:16.

an ID card system? It is me rolling out an 85 page document. We wanted

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to be easy, simple and light touch. It could an ID card? It could be. If

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there are French parents living in London with a daughter studying in

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Paris, will she be able to join her parents? How much will this extend

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to family members outside of the UK? It depends when they apply for

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social status. If the family has been here for five years they can

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apply for social status and they will have that for life. If they

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have not been here five years they will have an opportunity to stay

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here for five years to get it. After that they would broadly have the

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same rights as a UK citizen. If somebody goes abroad without have to

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be looked at in light of the immigration rules at that time. Talk

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to me about the opposition rules on immigration. I is sticking with the

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tens of thousands? Is that the aim, the objective? We're going to be

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talking to sectors, from business, agriculture and universities, which

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I will be doing as was my colleagues across government. We want people

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here to stay here. That is what the Prime Minister was outlining today,

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to contribute to our society and economy. We have heard government

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after government tried to hit tens of thousands. Are you still aiming

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to get the number under tens of thousands or has that gone? What we

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have said is we want a level. That is what we want to work towards. We

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want to get it down to sustainable levels, which we do believe it is

:19:05.:19:07.

tens of thousands. We cannot put a timescale on it because we have not

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yet left the European Union. In the meantime, work with universities and

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business sectors across the country and across government has a system

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that works for everyone. You are of course the housing minister and the

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fire minister as well. As we think about lessons learned from the

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Grenfell Tower fire, you said building developers should not be

:19:33.:19:36.

forced to fit sprinklers. Your department declined to bring in

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regulation forcing them to fit sprinklers. That is not correct. I

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was not the housing minister at the time of that speech and I am not an

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expert on building regulations. That speech was when I was the fire

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minister. That speech was a speech I made in favour of sprinklers. I was

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outlining the importance of the benefits of sprinklers. I was saying

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there are a whole range of fire safety measures, our whole range of

:20:09.:20:10.

fire sprinkler systems. It is not for the Government to choose a

:20:11.:20:13.

specific system. Whether it is a social housing owner in a high risk

:20:14.:20:18.

building or a high-rise or a low density buildings to look at what is

:20:19.:20:22.

appropriate. They have the duty of care to people in the building. Did

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you not say the cost of fitting a sprinkler system may affect

:20:28.:20:31.

house-building, so we must wait to see the impact? I was saying we want

:20:32.:20:36.

to make sure we are building more houses. New-build homes have been

:20:37.:20:41.

increasing over that period of time and have more increasing levels of

:20:42.:20:47.

fire safety. We brought in a requirement to have smoke detectors

:20:48.:20:51.

for private landlords. Is it not conceivable that some of those

:20:52.:20:53.

decisions which came under your departments, either in fire or

:20:54.:20:58.

housing could have been taken very differently? Do not have regrets

:20:59.:21:03.

about the decisions taken? Any of us who have been involved in politics

:21:04.:21:07.

when the buildings were built will be looking at what went wrong at

:21:08.:21:14.

Grenfell Tower. You spoke about regulation. You said an argument

:21:15.:21:20.

from the first government to reduce regulation. Your culture was about

:21:21.:21:27.

cutting red tape. That was the kind of red tape we now see could have

:21:28.:21:33.

saved lives. It is about looking at regulation across government. Not

:21:34.:21:37.

just around these issues. We will all want to learn lessons about what

:21:38.:21:40.

happened at Grenfell Tower. It should not have been allowed to

:21:41.:21:44.

happen. We must get to the bottom of it. Thank you.

:21:45.:21:48.

In the wake of the recent terror attacks in Manchester and London,

:21:49.:21:51.

M15 let it be known that 23,000 people living in the UK

:21:52.:21:54.

have potential links to violent extremism.

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Now Newsnight has learned this may just be the tip of the iceberg.

:21:56.:21:58.

The former chair of the Cobra Intelligence Group, which advises

:21:59.:22:01.

the Government on intelligence matters, has told this

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programme that, for years the intelligence community,

:22:04.:22:06.

and successive governments, have been "far too tolerant"

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in attitudes to extremist groups, in particular the Islamist

:22:10.:22:12.

Newsnight's Richard Watson has been following Al Muhajiroun

:22:13.:22:19.

for 16 years and in this extended film reveals

:22:20.:22:22.

how the group became a crucible of home grown terror,

:22:23.:22:25.

from the 7/7 London bombings, to the recent London Bridge attacks.

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His report contains some strong language.

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Three Islamist terror attacks in three months.

:22:38.:22:40.

Five murdered at Westminster Bridge, 22 dead at the Manchester Arena,

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The security service MI5 has revealed there were 3000 people

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with current connections to violent, Islamist extremism, and another

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23,000, it's worth pausing a second to think about that figure.

:22:58.:23:06.

That's the population of a small market town.

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23,000 potential jihadists in our midst, willing to kill

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Break the psychology of the occupiers by hitting back

:23:14.:23:23.

Much of the blame falls on this man, the founder of the now notorious

:23:24.:23:40.

Omar Bakri Muhammad created the group in 1996.

:23:41.:23:43.

For 20 years it's poisoned thousands of minds.

:23:44.:23:45.

Support for al-Muhajiroun is often a common thread

:23:46.:23:47.

From the fertiliser bomb conspiracy in 2004,

:23:48.:23:50.

the London bombings of 2005, right through to the recent

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Using all its own artilleries to suppress...

:23:53.:24:08.

Bakri wound up al-Muhajiroun in 2004, before it was banned.

:24:09.:24:11.

But the network continued under different names.

:24:12.:24:12.

In 2005, this is what one of Bakri's supporters told me

:24:13.:24:15.

about the 7/7 London bombers, just after they'd

:24:16.:24:17.

15 every day in Iraq against the British and Americans.

:24:18.:24:29.

What's shocking for many is that it took place on their own doorsteps.

:24:30.:24:39.

But, hopefully, it will make many wake up and smell the coffee.

:24:40.:24:42.

Colonel Richard Kemp has spent his career fighting terrorism.

:24:43.:24:45.

He chaired the Government's Cobra intelligence group, responsible

:24:46.:24:49.

for briefing government on secret intelligence.

:24:50.:24:52.

He has a very good insight into official thinking

:24:53.:24:56.

about al-Muhajiroun at the highest level and says

:24:57.:24:58.

It was a major failure and we've seen the consequences.

:24:59.:25:13.

We've seen Lee Rigby, who was chopped to pieces

:25:14.:25:15.

We've seen the latest London Bridge bombing led by one of their network.

:25:16.:25:19.

We've seen numerous other murders carried out by their members

:25:20.:25:22.

in different places around the world.

:25:23.:25:23.

The leader of the recent attacks at London Bridge

:25:24.:25:25.

Here he is on TV last year with his jihadi mates.

:25:26.:25:33.

So, why was this group allowed to operate so freely in the UK

:25:34.:25:36.

and do al-Muhajiroun supporters still have potency today?

:25:37.:25:42.

I've been investigating al-Muhajiroun and its supporters

:25:43.:25:46.

for 16 years, since before the 9/11 attacks.

:25:47.:25:53.

I witnessed their hatred of the West, their supremacist world

:25:54.:25:55.

If they saw you in a dark alleyway...

:25:56.:26:06.

If they saw you in a dark alleyway...

:26:07.:26:12.

Here we've been invited to film with the new leader

:26:13.:26:20.

of al-Muhajiroun, Anjem Choudary, who took over from Bakri after he'd

:26:21.:26:23.

Choudary was convicted of terrorism offences last year.

:26:24.:26:31.

In 2007, we tried to interview this man...

:26:32.:26:34.

He was accused in court of providing military supplies

:26:35.:26:40.

for an al-Muhajiroun network in Pakistan, for

:26:41.:26:42.

In 2004, I was invited to attend an al-Muhajiroun meeting in this

:26:43.:27:09.

I was following a British convert to Islam.

:27:10.:27:16.

They knew the cameras were rolling but even then their views on Western

:27:17.:27:20.

The time Blair came out, Bush came out at the same time.

:27:21.:27:24.

He said, you're either with us, or you're either with them.

:27:25.:27:27.

The only other ideological belief which is around now, not a religion.

:27:28.:27:47.

This man, Abu Uzair, an engineering graduate

:27:48.:27:48.

When the two planes magnificently went through those buildings, OK.

:27:49.:27:55.

And people turned round and said, hang on a second, that is barbaric.

:27:56.:27:58.

You described the 9/11 attack, the plane flying

:27:59.:28:10.

into the Twin Towers, and you said it was magnificent.

:28:11.:28:12.

How can you justify that, whether you're a Muslim,

:28:13.:28:15.

If you start the war, we will continue.

:28:16.:28:26.

The actual killing of innocent civilians, it can't be right.

:28:27.:28:28.

According to Islam, it's absolutely right.

:28:29.:28:38.

We understand that Abu Uzair has never faced legal action in the UK.

:28:39.:28:41.

New laws ban the glorification of terrorism and there have been

:28:42.:28:48.

many more successful prosecutions over the last decade.

:28:49.:28:52.

Critics say, from these seeds, domestic terrorism has grown.

:28:53.:28:59.

Our own action in the period before and soon after 9/11

:29:00.:29:04.

was extremely dangerous because, the networks and the individuals

:29:05.:29:12.

involved in them, saw that we were weak.

:29:13.:29:15.

They saw we were wanting to appease them and we wanted

:29:16.:29:18.

They exploited that in terms of developing and building a network

:29:19.:29:27.

which would eventually be turned against us.

:29:28.:29:29.

establishment watched, Bakri Muhammad got on with the job

:29:30.:29:32.

In the late 1990s, the leader of al-Muhajiroun,

:29:33.:29:36.

Omar Bakri Muhammad, targeted Muslims in the unlikely

:29:37.:29:38.

In amongst the well-kept houses and green, leafy streets,

:29:39.:29:42.

he found a ready audience for his narrative of extremism.

:29:43.:29:46.

The idea that the West was at war with Islam.

:29:47.:29:50.

Omar Bakri's extremist network was so poorly

:29:51.:29:52.

understood and unchallenged, that he even managed to get himself

:29:53.:29:59.

invited to talk about Islam to six formers at one of Crawley's

:30:00.:30:02.

At the time, our involvement with him was simply to promote

:30:03.:30:14.

religious tolerance and understanding, and inclusivity.

:30:15.:30:16.

And so we invited him into the school on those grounds.

:30:17.:30:18.

And I will put my hand up now and say that was

:30:19.:30:21.

At the time, I didn't understand what he represented.

:30:22.:30:34.

Meanwhile, critics say the security establishment

:30:35.:30:35.

There was an element of complacency among those people who were

:30:36.:30:41.

That, essentially, I certainly heard words used, like blowhard

:30:42.:30:48.

and windbag in relation to some of these prominent

:30:49.:30:50.

And I think they felt, basically, in some cases, anyway,

:30:51.:30:58.

that we are looking at people who talk a big war,

:30:59.:31:00.

don't actually fight it, and don't pose a really big threat

:31:01.:31:04.

The former head of counterterrorism at the Metropolitan Police,

:31:05.:31:13.

Peter Clark, told me he'd never heard the term, blowhard used,

:31:14.:31:16.

and said the threat was taken very seriously when plots were uncovered

:31:17.:31:19.

The 7/7 London bombings in 2005 they were devastating proof

:31:20.:31:26.

that British jihadis were targeting the UK.

:31:27.:31:31.

The leader, Mohammad Sidique Khan, had links

:31:32.:31:32.

Fast forward to 2017 and the London Bridge attacks.

:31:33.:31:43.

The lead attacker, Khuram Butt, was a committed

:31:44.:31:45.

He trained in a fitness centre in Ilford, East London.

:31:46.:31:55.

CCTV images recorded Khuram Butt and two others

:31:56.:31:57.

meeting outside the gym five days before the attack.

:31:58.:32:01.

OK, we're about to go into the gymnasium here.

:32:02.:32:06.

Newsnight was given exclusive television

:32:07.:32:11.

access to the gym after the police had raided.

:32:12.:32:20.

I'm inside the actual gym, where the leader of London

:32:21.:32:22.

Bridge attackers Khuram Butt trained.

:32:23.:32:24.

He was a long-term supporter of the extremist group

:32:25.:32:26.

We've also linked very firmly this gym to another man

:32:27.:32:32.

called Sajeel Shahid, who's been a leader

:32:33.:32:34.

He's linked to two of the UK's most notorious terrorists, Omar Khayyam,

:32:35.:32:41.

the leader of the fertiliser bomb plot and Mohammed Sadique Khan; the

:32:42.:32:43.

leader of the London bombings on 7/7.

:32:44.:32:48.

From what we saw, the fitness centre looked like a ramshackle

:32:49.:32:51.

Attendance was recorded by hand in this exercise book.

:32:52.:32:56.

The man who appeared to be in charge was

:32:57.:33:00.

known as Abu Ibrahim and that's a pseudonym for Sajeel Shahid.

:33:01.:33:04.

We found out that Sajeel Shahid's name

:33:05.:33:06.

appears on the planning documents from 2011.

:33:07.:33:10.

Sajeel Shahid used to be a key leader in Al-Muhajiroun in the

:33:11.:33:13.

He was one of Bakri Muhammad's most trusted men.

:33:14.:33:20.

To understand his role, we have to go

:33:21.:33:22.

right back to the late 1990s, when Bakri launched a branch of

:33:23.:33:25.

Al-Muhajiroun in Pakistan became a clearing house

:33:26.:33:30.

For Bakri, Pakistan was to be the crucible

:33:31.:33:40.

In September 2001, just after 9/11, an American called Mohammed Junaid

:33:41.:33:45.

I'm willing to kill the American soldiers, if they

:33:46.:33:48.

enter into Afghanistan with their ground troops,

:33:49.:33:50.

I'm willing to kill the Americans and if the Americans

:33:51.:33:54.

use Pakistan soil as its bases, we will kill them here in Pakistan too.

:33:55.:34:02.

Three years later, Junaid Baber became

:34:03.:34:04.

a jihadi super grass, testifying against his old friends.

:34:05.:34:08.

This is the confidential transcript of the FBI's interview with Mohammed

:34:09.:34:11.

On page two it says that Sajeel Shahid was the leader of

:34:12.:34:15.

Much later, a British jihadi source told

:34:16.:34:19.

me more than 200 recruits from Britain flowed

:34:20.:34:21.

On page 72 of the same document, it says that Sajeel Shahid probably

:34:22.:34:28.

coordinated explosives training for recruits in Pakistan.

:34:29.:34:39.

In early 2003 the jihadi supergrass said that he and Sajeel Shahid

:34:40.:34:42.

travelled to Pakistan's north-west frontier looking for a place

:34:43.:34:44.

to train recruits with guns and explosives.

:34:45.:34:46.

They found an ideal camp near the town of Malakand.

:34:47.:34:51.

Mohammad Sidique Khan the future leader of the London

:34:52.:34:53.

So did Omar Khayyam, the future leader of the fertiliser bomb plot.

:34:54.:35:02.

Several years later, I traced Sajeel Shahid to an Islamic

:35:03.:35:05.

exhibition in London, where he had a stall.

:35:06.:35:08.

I wanted to ask him about the training camp

:35:09.:35:11.

Richard Watson from BBC Newsnight here.

:35:12.:35:18.

We've been trying to contact you to ask questions.

:35:19.:35:20.

The question we want to ask you really, were you involved

:35:21.:35:23.

You're a leader of Al-Muhajiroun, weren't you?

:35:24.:35:30.

You were, it's clearly on your website?

:35:31.:35:35.

Were you helping terrorist suspects in Pakistan?

:35:36.:35:38.

Were you leading Al-Muhajiroun in Pakistan.

:35:39.:35:40.

We're told you were leading Al-Muhajiroun

:35:41.:35:42.

So Al-Muhajiroun and its successor groups prospered in the UK right up

:35:43.:35:50.

Well, Islamist extremist networks are very well established and it's

:35:51.:35:59.

been made far worse by support for the so-called Islamic State.

:36:00.:36:02.

Has the failure to grasp the nettle early enough left the UK

:36:03.:36:05.

I think the figure of 23,000, which has recently been released

:36:06.:36:13.

by MI5, as being people they're concerned about being involved

:36:14.:36:16.

in some way in jihadist activity is probably the tip of the iceberg.

:36:17.:36:25.

Many of the idealogical extremists featured in this film were later

:36:26.:36:28.

Others like Sajeel Shahid have never been charged with any offence.

:36:29.:36:36.

There's no suggestion that he had a hand in directing the attack

:36:37.:36:39.

but in an ideological sense it does connect the present threat

:36:40.:36:42.

with the old extremist network of Al-Muhajiroun.

:36:43.:36:47.

And this network tolerated for so many years is part

:36:48.:36:50.

of the story behind the unprecedented Islamist terror

:36:51.:36:52.

Richard Watson there on the ideology behind the London Bridge bombers.

:36:53.:37:05.

Once upon a time, there was a little boy who lived

:37:06.:37:08.

in a cupboard under the stairs, in a book no-one had seen.

:37:09.:37:11.

His author once commented that had it not been

:37:12.:37:13.

for her publisher, Barry Cunningham, he would have stayed

:37:14.:37:15.

That author was JK Rowling, that boy was Harry Potter,

:37:16.:37:20.

and this evening, I spoke to Mr Cunningham and Rosamund de

:37:21.:37:23.

La Hey, who were both instrumental in getting it into print,

:37:24.:37:25.

You're a wizard, Harry. I'm a what? A wizard and a thumping good one I

:37:26.:37:40.

wager, once you've trained up a little. No, you've made a mistake, I

:37:41.:37:47.

mean, I can't be a wizard. I mean, I'm just... Harry. You have to

:37:48.:37:57.

consult the inner child. We have very good inner children. We consult

:37:58.:38:01.

at children we were to make our decisions. You had a special way of

:38:02.:38:05.

wanting to get everyone to read it. Well, yes. Someone told me that you

:38:06.:38:11.

have to get editors' attention because they're deluged by endless

:38:12.:38:14.

material before an editorial meeting. I wanted to make it

:38:15.:38:17.

different. We wrapped it up in a tube and stuff today with smarties

:38:18.:38:23.

and made it look like an academic scroll so it would spill on the desk

:38:24.:38:26.

and they'd have to pay attention and hopefully read a bit at least. Isn't

:38:27.:38:30.

it funny now to think, it was famously turned down. What do you

:38:31.:38:34.

think other publishers didn't get? What was scary about it? Well, it's

:38:35.:38:40.

interesting because when I got it I didn't know that everybody else in

:38:41.:38:44.

the universe had turned it down. With the boarding school setting,

:38:45.:38:49.

just everything made it feel like it was perhaps too 1950s to the current

:38:50.:38:55.

Goose bumps and Babysitters trend now. What you look for in an author

:38:56.:39:02.

is someone who cares and is obsessed with everything to do with their

:39:03.:39:06.

creation, just like their readers will be hopefully. She was totally

:39:07.:39:10.

obsessed with Harry and his world. We took the big risk alongside her

:39:11.:39:14.

with having Harry grow up with every book. I had a meeting with her and

:39:15.:39:19.

famously said that, you know, all the stories about her of course are

:39:20.:39:22.

true, she was a single mum. I said that she needed to get a day job

:39:23.:39:25.

because she wouldn't make any money out of children's books. Is it true

:39:26.:39:28.

she was encouraged to keep the initials so that it didn't put off

:39:29.:39:35.

boy readers? We have a revelation between us tonight, because people

:39:36.:39:40.

always said it was my fault. I cannot remember ever advising her.

:39:41.:39:44.

Tonight, we were talking, and Roz has a big admission. Really

:39:45.:39:49.

initially the very first cover was proofed saying Joanne, at the time

:39:50.:39:54.

Jacqueline Wilson, still is, riding high. She was probably the biggest

:39:55.:39:58.

name in kids' books at the time. Her name being Jacqueline felt too close

:39:59.:40:02.

to Joanne and made me think her market is a female readership, a

:40:03.:40:07.

young girl readership. I would only say it's quite interesting the proof

:40:08.:40:11.

I have to say, I think, is in the pudding in the sense that for the

:40:12.:40:14.

six months, until she was interviewed on Blue Peter, in

:40:15.:40:17.

November, I think it was that year, when she won the smarties prize, she

:40:18.:40:23.

was revealed as a woman. All the fan mail had been addressed to "Dear,

:40:24.:40:27.

Sir." I opened it, it definitely was. Do you ever wonder what would

:40:28.:40:31.

have happened if you had missed, if you had passed it on? Do you have

:40:32.:40:37.

the middle of the night, thank God we got it? Jo said if I turned it

:40:38.:40:41.

down, I was almost the last stop for Harry. What a thought! It would

:40:42.:40:46.

maybe never have happened. All those parents, grandparents, adults and

:40:47.:40:52.

all the generations, you know, wouldn't have enjoyed the phenomenon

:40:53.:40:58.

that is Harry Potter. Well if you're sure... Better be... Griffin corps!

:40:59.:41:12.

That is all -- Griffyndor! That's all for tonight, Evan is back

:41:13.:41:15.

tomorrow. From all of us, very good night.

:41:16.:41:24.

Hello there. Plenty of rain in the forecast for this

:41:25.:41:25.

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