06/07/2017 Newsnight


06/07/2017

With James O'Brien. Trump's warning to the west, the CBI chief defends her Brexit vision, and how close is AI? Plus Ibram X Kendi on his definitive history of racism.


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Transcript


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I take pride in the words ich bin eine Berliner. The fundamental

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question of our time is whether the West has the will to survive.

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The President says the West may not survive.

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Is he right, or is he part of the problem?

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I think the large English speaking democracies, Britain,

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and the United States, are really moving rapidly

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We'll discuss how the Alliance can weather these storms.

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Also tonight, for some Remainers, the cause endures,

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the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die.

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The head of the CBI will make the case for a Brexit so soft,

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And just how close is artificial intelligence?

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It's literally in the past year we went from a place where it

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would get it right about 80% of the time to a point where now

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it's actually achieved human parody and speech recognition.

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Something may have been lost in translation but Donald Trump

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spent much of his Presidential campaign proudly proclaiming

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that Vladimir Putin had described him as a genius.

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This lofty regard was apparently mutual -

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with Trump regularly expressing his admiration

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Today, however, the American President seemed to place his

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Russian counterpart on the other side of a purported war

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During a speech in the Polish capital, Warsaw, he called on Russia

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to stop destabilising Ukraine and other countries and to end

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support for hostile regimes such as those in Syria and Iran.

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With the pair due to meet tomorrow at the G20 summit in Hamburg,

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Newsnight's Diplomatic Editor Mark Urban has been exploring

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the American President's apocalyptic warning.

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It's the President's second visit to Europe and today's

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speech was billed as a big foreign policy moment.

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Given in Warsaw's Krasinski Square in front of a memorial to the 1944

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uprising against the Nazis, an appreciative audience had been

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It fell to the First Lady to do the warm up.

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The president of the United States, Donald J Trump.

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And with that, Trump set out his stall of a West

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in existential crisis and his formula for success

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While we will always welcome new citizens who share our values

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and love our people, our borders will always

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be closed to terrorism and extremism of any kind.

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Today, the West is also confronted by the powers that

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seek to test our will, undermine our confidence

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To meet new forms of aggression, including propaganda,

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financial crimes and cyber warfare, we must adapt our alliance

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to compete effectively in new ways and on all new battlefields.

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And here, having alluded to the Russian and Chinese threats,

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he did at last state his commitment to Nato's mutual defence

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But it was a distinctly Trumpian formula that shed little light

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on the issue of how the West revives its fortunes economically.

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A large part of the answer to that question depends on whether Macron

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and Merkel can reignite the Franco-German motor,

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rewrite Europe's fiscal rules and really generate growth again

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That is where the hope lies and, if you like, the glass of champagne

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is half full at the moment in Paris and in Berlin.

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Today's speech owes much to White House strategy boss Steve Bannon.

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You have an expansionist Islam and an expansionist China, right?

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They are motivated, they are arrogant,

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they are on the march and they think the Judaeo-Christian West

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His view of the world revolves around hard power and the need

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Even so, many more mainstream conservatives

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I think the president struck the right tone on Polish soil today,

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a strong reiteration, I think, of the importance

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of the transatlantic alliance and a reminder of the values that

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The illiberality of this message and emphasis on religious faith

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worked well for this Polish audience, but it's out of kilter

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It was very significant, not only that he chose Poland,

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you know, which has got that law and justice government,

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a right-wing government, a very Christian government that

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refuses to take refugees from the Middle East

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and is being sued by the EU over that, but it's very significant

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that he, in his speech in Warsaw, did not use the word democracy once.

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The President today claimed that billions and billions of extra

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defence spending was now pouring into Nato as a result

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So typical transactional Trump, having got what he wanted,

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he gave the Europeans what he thought they were after.

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That's all very well, but it hardly builds Western unity.

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After today's Warsaw event, Hamburg looked very different this

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evening as the President arrived for a G20 meeting.

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Violent protests happened pre-Trump, of course,

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but in tone and substance, the President's message is hardly

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I'm joined now by Pulitzer prize winning historian,

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Eric Foner and Susan Glasser - former Foreign Policy editor

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in chief and the first editor of Politico magazine.

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Susan, was it significant, D-Link, or how significant was it that the

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word democracy did not appear at all in that speech? -- do you think.

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Significant but not a surprise. Me doesn't use the word democracy

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often. Some people here were likening his speech to a European

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version of his American carnage and inauguration speech. -- Trump

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doesn't you do a clash of civilisations, harking

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back to Samuel Huntington's 1993 work where is spam replaces Russia

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as the enemy of Western domination in the world. Does that tally with

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what you heard today? What was interesting was Trump was laying out

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this apocalyptic vision of the world divided into the forces of light,

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darkness, and it gives you an insight into what you might call the

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intellectual origins of Trump's outlook. It may seem absurd to put

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intellectual and Trump in the same sentence, because he doesn't read

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books, he has no literature curiosity. But with people like

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Steve Bannon around him, this is their view of the world, that it has

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always been these clashes of civilisations. That our whole

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civilisation is under assault from either Isis or radical Islam, as

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they call it, maybe the Chinese in the future rising. This is a view

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which isn't particularly conducive to compromise, to negotiation. Steve

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Bannon steams to think we are living back in the age of the Crusades

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where Christianity and Islam are at war. -- seems to think. And for the

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future of the world. If you look at Isis, it is ridiculous, it is a

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small group of violent criminal people but they don't pose a threat

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to the US or the UK. I mean, the Cold War, the existence of these

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countries was under threat, you know? From nuclear warfare. But, you

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know, this apocalyptic vision is not really an accurate representation of

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the way the world is today. Yet the rhetoric, Susan, of an assault on

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Western values, it puts bums on seats, doesn't it? What value is

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mighty realistically be able to persuade Americans are being

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threatened by a resurgent China, or and expansionist Islam? It is murky.

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What exactly is the clash of civilisations here? That is why

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Trump's speech today is probably really unlikely to amount to much in

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terms of policy. I was struck by the fact that you know who it reminds me

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of? Vladimir Putin's rhetoric. You captured earlier in the programme

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the tension of this on the one hand critical language towards Russia you

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haven't always seen Trump used. He suggested that they stopped shoring

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Assad. But that is different to the full throated, bombastic even common

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rhetorical nature of this speech. It is actually Vladimir Putin who often

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talks in terms very much like this. He says the number one threat Russia

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and Europe faces is from terrorism. He said that from the beginning of

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his tenure as Russia's leader. And he talks about restoring

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conservative values in a vague way. I think Trump was unclear exactly

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what the existential threat is right now. Do you think he knows himself

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what the existential threat is? Or are you casting him in the role of

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Steve Bannon's glove puppet? It's Steve Bannon, what we call the

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alternative right in the US. There is another forebear of Trump. You

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didn't mention this. But in his speech he started denouncing

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bureaucracy. Nobody likes to defend bureaucracy, but this goes back to

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an obscure radical, James Burnham, who wrote a book in the early 1940s,

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which has been picked up again in these obscure right-wing website to

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argue that the threat today is not from a standard from the

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administrative state. Trump attacks what they call regulation, or that

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kind of thing. That is a trope extreme writers are fond of using,

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that it is the state itself which is the danger to Western freedoms.

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Burnham contended that communism and capitalism were essentially two

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sides of the same undesirable coin. What word would you employ to

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describe whatever alternative it is that they want to replace the old

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world order with? Would you did not mention is that beneath this is an

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exclusive vision of what American civilisation or Western civilisation

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is. It is fundamentally Christian. It is fundamentally white. Other

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peoples don't have a role in it according to them. You could call it

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a white nationalism. That is what we often call it in the US. It is

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explicit now. Not in this speech but in the right-wing website and

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call-in radio. The racial element here. And the religious element is

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very strong. That goes all the way against the traditions of American

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values of separation of church and state and pluralism, and tolerance.

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Those are threats to our civilisation right now. They are

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coming from within. Susan, the meeting with Vladimir Putin

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tomorrow, do you speculate on what a positive outcome might be? I would

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caution people against thinking this is a definitive moment of

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confrontation when we will find out once and for all just what is the

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deal between Trump and Putin, or even find out what our policy is.

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We've just heard there is only going to be Donald Trump and Rex Tillerson

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and their translators in the meeting with Sergei Lavrov, the Foreign

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Minister, and President Putin himself. It is going to be an hour

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or less. Once you add the translation in, it amounts to a

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short chat between two countries. Even if they are talking, has been

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reported, and I terrorism moves, can you imagine any major significant

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arrangement being agreed to in half an hour? -- anti-terrorism moves.

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Forgive me, I need to move on. Thank you both so much for your time this

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evening. Staying with Trump, Russia -

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and, indeed, Ukraine - the Hungarian foreign

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minister, Peter Sijarto, about being positioned both

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politically and geographically right in the middle of the changing

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political landscape. We also discussed Brexit, of course,

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but I began by asking him about his government's perceived

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proximity to the Kremlin and possible problems this poses

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for Hungarian citizens in Ukraine. I don't like this kind

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of stigmatisation. And I don't like this kind

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of simplification of things. It was fair to say it is

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a friendly relationship. And if you live in Central Europe

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you know that you can't afford Because it's not just

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European countries that I'd love to know, where do

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you think, from what he said since becoming President,

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Donald Trump sits on that scale? Well, you know, actually,

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we cross fingers for And we cross fingers for him to be

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able to build a balanced relationship with Russia

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because you know, as I told you, we are living in Central Europe

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and we have a very clear Which says that whenever

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there was a conflict between East and West,

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Central Europe always lost. And we don't want to

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be losers any more. So, when we argue, or when we hope

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for a better relationship between the US and Russia,

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it's not because we are pro-Russia or pro-US,

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it's because we are pro-Hungarian. Did you agree with him

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when he said earlier today I totally agree with the position

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that the civilised world The better the relationship between

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the US and Russia is better for us. The worst relationship between US

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and Russia is the worst for us. You know, we are living

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in central Europe, OK? Is it fair to describe

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Viktor Orban's government as being one of the more Eurosceptic

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in the European Union? No, Hungarian people,

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including the Hungarian government, But what I can tell

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you is the following, that we are absolutely pro-European,

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we want strong European Union because Hungary can be really strong

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in a strong European Union. 80% of our trade goes

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on with the EU countries. So we are interested

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in a strong European Union. But we have a serious

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debate with Brussels, with some other member states,

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about how to get there. So we say that the federalist

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approach will not work out. So we are rather on a sovereignty

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path, saying that strong European Union must be based

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on strong member states. You know, to be very honest,

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we regretted the decision. Because it's a big

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political and economic loss for the European Union,

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because you had a very strong voice in the debate

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about the future of Europe. So this debate will now be

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unbalanced because the leader of one camp, or the strongest voice of one

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camp, falls out. In the meantime, here

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we have a nightmare scenario, If there is no deal,

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if there is no comprehensive economic trade and investment

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agreement, then we will be in big trouble in Europe,

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because the last time we were able to implement a free trade

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agreement was in 2011. So the problem is that the EU is

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very slow on free trade agreements. And if Britain gets free hands,

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then you will be able to sign free trade agreements with India,

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with Turkey, with the US, with Australia, with

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which we do not have. I mean, the European Union doesn't

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have free trade agreements. So if this is the case, then it

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will harm our competitiveness, harm the competitiveness

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of European Union furthermore. So that's why we are pushing

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for a fair, I don't like this Do you understand the

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categorisation, because I don't. You don't understand, OK,

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so that's a common point. We want fair Brexit,

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that's for sure. Balanced, fair Brexit,

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which will end up in mutual benefits But we want the most comprehensive

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economic trade and investment partnership with the UK

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in the future. But I think that we are

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on the right track. I hope European institutions

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are ready to negotiate in a, Because what we don't

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want is the following, that you look back to the time

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of your referendum. Then some of the reactions come

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on behalf of European institutions, where,

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like, as those people took it And we don't want any

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European institutions to sit at the negotiating table as a group

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of insulted people. And we don't want the European

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negotiators or EU negotiators What we want is to have a good

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deal at the end, a fair deal, Earlier this evening,

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the director-general of the CBI Carolyn Fairbairn warned

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in a lecture at the LSE that Brexit uncertainty is starting

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to damage the UK economy. She cited companies changing plans

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and slowing investment in anticipation of what she called

:19:20.:19:24.

the "serious disruption" that would ensue if the UK were to leave

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the EU without a deal. Her comments came as International

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Trade Minister Liam Fox appeared to add his weight to his Cabinet

:19:30.:19:32.

colleague Andrea Leadsom's recent contention that reporting unwelcome

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statistics about Brexit He claimed in the Commons that some

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elements of the media would rather see Britain fail

:19:40.:19:45.

than Brexit succeed. It speaks perhaps too difficult

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truth to you, which is when you describe an environment you consider

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less than conducive to business, you run the risk of making that

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environment even less conducive to business, talking the country down,

:20:13.:20:16.

if you like? One of the things that is really important to have now is a

:20:17.:20:22.

realistic debate. When we hear from firms across the country large and

:20:23.:20:27.

small about the way uncertainty is beginning to affect investment

:20:28.:20:29.

decisions, I think it is very important that we say that but also

:20:30.:20:32.

that we put ideas on the table so what were doing today is putting an

:20:33.:20:36.

idea on the table which is not about the weather of Brexit, is about the

:20:37.:20:47.

how. Whether with an H. It is about a Brexit that protects jobs and

:20:48.:20:52.

investment, that is what we are tabling and a proposal that means

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the UK would stay in the customs union and the single market as a

:20:58.:21:01.

bridge to a future deal, it has the added advantage that there will be

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only one transition. How long is the bridge? As short as is possible. It

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is very difficult to tell. It depends on the final point is, the

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final point is very different from today. Win over Canada free trade

:21:16.:21:18.

deal took seven years, we hope it would be very much shorter than

:21:19.:21:24.

that. It is very important to say this has no interest in anything

:21:25.:21:28.

that is open-ended and more uncertainty, so a short as

:21:29.:21:30.

practically possible but something that gives businesses the time to

:21:31.:21:34.

adapt. You say it is important to have the debate now, why now and not

:21:35.:21:41.

a year ago after the Lancaster house speech? There is something very

:21:42.:21:44.

important about that because we are heading into the time when companies

:21:45.:21:47.

plan their investment and every sector, every company, has a

:21:48.:21:50.

different point at which they start planning things. So a bakery in

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Northern Ireland, we know it would take them 20 months if they wanted

:21:55.:21:57.

to relocate to the Republic because of tariffs, so they are starting to

:21:58.:22:03.

think now about what they are having to do. Airlines, it is a year before

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because they are thinking about passenger reservations. So every

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company has a tipping point and we are heading into that period and

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that is why we are beginning to hear more concern from our members about

:22:15.:22:18.

those cliff edges. You did mention the election but you wouldn't be

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making the speech of Theresa May had secured a three figure majority. I

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think we would have done. Word for word? I think so because we have an

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important role to play at the moment, talking about what grassroot

:22:32.:22:35.

businesses, large and small, across the country are saying and they are

:22:36.:22:39.

saying it is beginning to bite and it is important that we are able to

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say that but also that we have a simple solution on the table. But it

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is not a solution in the strictest sense of the word, it is holding

:22:47.:22:49.

tactic, a postponement of either pain the unknown. I think the

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questionnaire dancers is how you give more confidence to business now

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to invest for the future -- I think the question it and so. The economy

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is a flywheel, so investment today is jobs in the future and I think

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our priority today is that, it is so important for growth in the future

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so let's deal with that problem first. The almost irresistible

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subtext of all of this is when we reached the end of the bridge,

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things at that end can't be as good as they were at this end. I think

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that is an area where we should be optimistic. I think we can still say

:23:24.:23:27.

that we need to get to an in principle agreement by March 2019.

:23:28.:23:32.

One of the important benefits of the proposal we put on the table today

:23:33.:23:36.

is that you can focus all the effort on that final deal, you are not

:23:37.:23:39.

talking about some interim other transitional arrangement which would

:23:40.:23:44.

take up a lot of time, so we think it would make it more likely to get

:23:45.:23:50.

to that outline deal by March 20 19. Except of course March 2019 is the

:23:51.:23:54.

date on which an awful lot of people would be expecting freedom of

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movement to end immediately and your proposal would well, continue at

:23:58.:24:03.

indefinitely. Not indefinitely. Indefinitely as in you can't tell me

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how long your bridge is. Firms accept that freedom of movement well

:24:09.:24:12.

and and again, this is about trade-offs and about timing. Firms

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are committed to, we know we are going to need to increase training

:24:16.:24:18.

and we are going to need to scale up to fill the gaps that are created.

:24:19.:24:23.

That is going to take time, so the other thing that the bridge to the

:24:24.:24:26.

future will give us is the chance to prepare, the chance to get ready, so

:24:27.:24:30.

I think that is a transition as well. I think a lot of people

:24:31.:24:33.

watching may be thinking that you would quite like to stay on the

:24:34.:24:37.

bridge for ever, and see you as one of these on crushed saboteurs.

:24:38.:24:44.

Really clear that that is not the case. I will go back to the point

:24:45.:24:48.

that business is one certainty, not some open-ended period of

:24:49.:24:51.

uncertainty, so as short as practically possible but long enough

:24:52.:24:56.

for the Government, for firms, for people to adapt. Businesses do think

:24:57.:25:00.

in years and they will need time to get ready, so it is a practical

:25:01.:25:03.

proposal that gives the certainty now and that bridge to the future.

:25:04.:25:08.

It is practical but it is almost completely unpolitical. Is that the

:25:09.:25:16.

definition of your role, you represent the interests of your

:25:17.:25:18.

members and don't worry about the difficulty that a Prime Minister may

:25:19.:25:20.

have in delivering the plan you describe? Well, I think everybody

:25:21.:25:23.

has an interest in the success of the economy and jobs and prosperity

:25:24.:25:26.

and I think one of the things we have seen since the election that is

:25:27.:25:30.

very welcome is the economy back centrestage, people are talking

:25:31.:25:34.

about it and how we will pay the public services, about the way we

:25:35.:25:37.

have jobs for our children, so I think that is where this comes

:25:38.:25:41.

together. That is why I do think we have a responsibility as businesses

:25:42.:25:45.

to talk about investment today, jobs in the future. So I'm hoping

:25:46.:25:48.

politics and economics can come together in this. Fingers crossed.

:25:49.:25:52.

Carolyn Fairbairn, many thanks indeed.

:25:53.:25:56.

There is always an element of chance in predicting the future, obviously,

:25:57.:26:01.

but the broad consensus among tech watchers is the biggest of all next

:26:02.:26:06.

big things will be AI, or artificial intelligence. Machines will be able

:26:07.:26:10.

to do things that for millennia, we have blithely presumed would always

:26:11.:26:16.

be the exclusive domain of humanity. Reasoning, recognising speech, text,

:26:17.:26:17.

images, collaboration. The impact from jobs to healthcare ,

:26:18.:26:20.

from transport to education is likely to be as profound

:26:21.:26:24.

as the industrial and information Our technology editor David Grossman

:26:25.:26:27.

has been given exclusive access to Microsoft's AI labs in Seattle

:26:28.:26:36.

to see how this There's nothing perhaps that

:26:37.:26:38.

looks quite so dated Seattle's salute to science

:26:39.:26:49.

in the century to come. See how man will live and work

:26:50.:26:58.

and play in the year 2000. Seattle's Space Needle and monorail,

:26:59.:27:03.

built for the '62 World's Fair, probably tell us more

:27:04.:27:06.

about the assumptions of that time Most often, predictions miss

:27:07.:27:09.

the really profound shifts. What Eve will look like in A.D.

:27:10.:27:18.

2000. Like this pre-war assumption

:27:19.:27:21.

that the 21st century woman of fashion would still have a lady's

:27:22.:27:24.

maid to help her dress. Shoes will have cantilever heels

:27:25.:27:29.

and an electric belt will adapt Pity then the people that work here,

:27:30.:27:32.

this is Building 99 In here, the predictions

:27:33.:27:40.

that they make determine the future of the company and perhaps,

:27:41.:27:47.

if they are right, We are betting the company

:27:48.:27:50.

on advances in AI. I've been given exclusive access

:27:51.:27:57.

to meet the people and see the projects that Microsoft believe

:27:58.:28:04.

will shape the future. It reached the point now

:28:05.:28:08.

where people can have, you know, very natural conversations

:28:09.:28:11.

with software and software can I look at how they were

:28:12.:28:13.

actually walking... Eric Horvitz is head

:28:14.:28:22.

of Microsoft's AI programme. Even the lifts here run

:28:23.:28:28.

on this new technology. So much of our civilisation,

:28:29.:28:34.

what we think is special about humans, is based

:28:35.:28:37.

on our intellects, on our ability to see and understand reason,

:28:38.:28:39.

inverse and collaborate to see and understand reason,

:28:40.:28:44.

converse and collaborate and for the first time in history,

:28:45.:28:46.

we are getting close to building machines that have some

:28:47.:28:49.

of that intellect. We went from a place

:28:50.:28:50.

where we would get it right about 80% of the time to a point

:28:51.:28:53.

where, now, it's actually achieved human parity in speech recognition

:28:54.:28:58.

and that's something that just You could probably make sense

:28:59.:29:00.

of the jumble of colours and shapes in this photograph almost instantly,

:29:01.:29:08.

even though chances are you've But consider what it would take

:29:09.:29:11.

for a machine to do that. We've taken natural language

:29:12.:29:17.

processing research, computer vision research and had

:29:18.:29:25.

people from those to field work computer vision research and had

:29:26.:29:32.

people from those two fields work together to be able to generate

:29:33.:29:34.

sentences about pictures. Here, the sentence that we generated

:29:35.:29:36.

with no context other than the contents

:29:37.:29:40.

of the image here is "A man swimming

:29:41.:29:42.

in a pool of water." You know, it used to be the case

:29:43.:29:44.

that it took thousands and thousands of images and hours

:29:45.:29:47.

and hours to train. Now we are down to dozens

:29:48.:29:49.

and minutes and seconds So the building blocks for an AI

:29:50.:29:52.

world are almost complete. Computers can now not only recognise

:29:53.:30:00.

pictures and objects, but gestures and video and speech

:30:01.:30:02.

and text, faces and even emotion. All of these skills can be used

:30:03.:30:06.

by developers in an almost infinite variety of combinations

:30:07.:30:09.

to create new applications. There's been research that

:30:10.:30:17.

Microsoft's been doing Only recently are we seeing these

:30:18.:30:24.

services at the level of quality at a developer can actually build

:30:25.:30:30.

on and have reliable experiences from, because,

:30:31.:30:33.

you know, prior to that, the amount of data required to truly

:30:34.:30:35.

make high, confident predictions from artificial intelligence wasn't

:30:36.:30:37.

there and the computing But a world of super intelligent

:30:38.:30:39.

computers understanding everything isn't everyone's idea

:30:40.:30:52.

of technological perfection. Does any part of this

:30:53.:30:53.

future terrify you at all? I'm concerned with potential

:30:54.:31:02.

misuse of this technology by malevolent forces,

:31:03.:31:06.

by people with ill will. By state and non-state actors

:31:07.:31:11.

who can gain strong powers I haven't also think that the answer

:31:12.:31:14.

to some of that is the AI itself, because there is no better defence

:31:15.:31:20.

and no better detector of And very soon, we might forget

:31:21.:31:26.

we are talking to computers at all. AI systems can have human facing

:31:27.:31:38.

front ends known as bots For example, Xiaoice has been

:31:39.:31:41.

developed by Microsoft to interact with people on Chinese social media

:31:42.:31:49.

and with every conversation, Xiaoice learns both

:31:50.:31:52.

about the individual and humanity. Absolutely, that is what they

:31:53.:31:57.

call me around here. More efficiently, Dan Driscoll

:31:58.:32:03.

is Development Manager and Principal Architect

:32:04.:32:05.

of the Microsoft bot framework. They form emotional connections

:32:06.:32:06.

with some of these chatbots and have I think the average for Xiaoice

:32:07.:32:14.

is 23 turns per conversation, so people will chat, will say,

:32:15.:32:20.

"Hey, how are you doing?" "I am having a good day,

:32:21.:32:22.

how are you doing?" They form a kind of emotional

:32:23.:32:26.

relationship and that is one So many bots have both

:32:27.:32:29.

a sort of like a factual, an IQ component and an emotional

:32:30.:32:33.

or personality EQ component. AI will not only be able

:32:34.:32:41.

to know and recognise everything and everyone,

:32:42.:32:43.

it will know how to charm us, It will know how to reassure us

:32:44.:32:46.

and how to frighten us. Instead of us operating

:32:47.:32:49.

the computers, the computers will be Whoever controls the AI probably

:32:50.:32:52.

controls the future. There's already disquiet about using

:32:53.:32:55.

Big Data to target voters. Well, imagine what an all seeing,

:32:56.:33:02.

all knowing AI could do. Are you concerned at all,

:33:03.:33:22.

for example, about AI elections, AI systems can be designed

:33:23.:33:24.

to persuade, to... In an algorithmic view to optimise

:33:25.:33:28.

goals of changing someone's believes or enhancing the beliefs about one

:33:29.:33:30.

thing or another. The prospect that some day,

:33:31.:33:36.

data mining, data analysis, very close targeting a particular

:33:37.:33:40.

demographics can be used in elections to influence

:33:41.:33:42.

elections is a very, On the one hand, we can see

:33:43.:33:44.

and we can imagine how authoritarian regimes can use these technologies

:33:45.:33:51.

through tracking, surveillance, persuasion, that would

:33:52.:33:53.

strengthen this authoritarian On the other hand, these

:33:54.:33:54.

techniques of AI also open up the world for pluralism,

:33:55.:34:08.

for discussion and collaboration, understanding and tracking,

:34:09.:34:10.

you know, understanding the sources of persuasion and signalling

:34:11.:34:12.

coming into one's life. So we see this prospect of who is

:34:13.:34:14.

going in different directions. So we shouldn't ignore

:34:15.:34:27.

the huge potential benefits. About 30 miles outside Seattle,

:34:28.:34:29.

I saw Microsoft's AI form. Data driven farming

:34:30.:34:31.

could revolutionise how However, measuring precise moisture

:34:32.:34:33.

and nutrient levels for each part of the field would require thousands

:34:34.:34:41.

of sensors and the Instead, an AI model of the farm can

:34:42.:34:44.

be built with just a few sensors in the ground and a few photographs

:34:45.:34:50.

from the air. This is going to help

:34:51.:34:56.

the farmers reduce costs, use much less water,

:34:57.:34:58.

use much less lime, use less fertiliser,

:34:59.:35:00.

use less nutrients and stuff. So this is definitely

:35:01.:35:04.

going to have an impact on reducing the cost as well as less harm

:35:05.:35:07.

on the environment. And the early indications

:35:08.:35:16.

are that yields will rise Using cheap cameras

:35:17.:35:18.

and tethered helium balloons, AI could revolutionise subsistence

:35:19.:35:22.

farming in the developing world. Artificial intelligence is growing

:35:23.:35:27.

fast, getting smarter all the time. While some fear it could end

:35:28.:35:33.

of our species, others believe it Very soon, AI will take off

:35:34.:35:36.

and we will find out if we control It's a mighty tome but when you

:35:37.:35:41.

consider that its author Ibram X Kendi aspires to provide

:35:42.:35:53.

the definitive history of racist ideas in America,

:35:54.:35:55.

it's perhaps surprising that Stamped From The Beginning only runs

:35:56.:35:57.

to just north of 500 pages. The title comes from a speech

:35:58.:36:05.

given to Congress in 1860 by Jefferson Davis, the Mississipi

:36:06.:36:07.

senator who went on to serve as president of the Confederate

:36:08.:36:10.

states of America. He argued that so-called 'black

:36:11.:36:15.

inferiority' had been stamped from the beginning on the bodies

:36:16.:36:17.

of Africans at the Ibram X Kendi joins me down

:36:18.:36:20.

the line from Florida. It is a history book obviously, but

:36:21.:36:38.

it's motivation seems very of the moment. It is because I think I

:36:39.:36:45.

wanted to show readers that we have been engaged in a racial debate, the

:36:46.:36:51.

same racial debate we are engaged in right now, really for hundreds of

:36:52.:36:57.

years. That racial debate seeks to answer the question, why does racial

:36:58.:37:02.

inequality exist? Why do racial disparities exist in our societies?

:37:03.:37:06.

This book really takes the reader through hundreds of years of

:37:07.:37:09.

different people answering that question. And those that have

:37:10.:37:15.

expressed racist ideas have stated racial inequalities, because black

:37:16.:37:19.

people are inferior, and those have expressed anti-racist ideas have

:37:20.:37:24.

been suffering as a result of racial discrimination. Many people would

:37:25.:37:29.

point to the double election of Barack Obama as perhaps the

:37:30.:37:32.

beginning of the end of the history of racism. The one you describe. Yet

:37:33.:37:37.

you describe him as a following in the racist footsteps of every

:37:38.:37:42.

president since Richard Nixon. One of the things I wanted to do is

:37:43.:37:48.

state a very clear definition of a racist idea. And then apply that

:37:49.:37:52.

definition to many different thinkers. And I ended up before

:37:53.:37:57.

applying it to anyone. I ended up applying it to myself and realising

:37:58.:38:01.

that I had even expressed racist ideas. And people I admire like

:38:02.:38:07.

Frederick Douglass, and even Barack Obama, expressed racist ideas,

:38:08.:38:10.

suggesting there was something wrong and inferior about black people. I

:38:11.:38:16.

think that's how powerful and how widespread and how believable these

:38:17.:38:19.

ideas have been throughout American history. You also address the issue

:38:20.:38:25.

of why people in power choose to invoke the fear of a black man, of

:38:26.:38:31.

the black person, in the minds of white people, what answers did you

:38:32.:38:38.

arrive at? I think the underlying, sort of, thesis of the text is

:38:39.:38:44.

showing the ways of which racist ideas are merging and people are

:38:45.:38:48.

consuming those ideas and becoming fearful, becoming hateful, becoming

:38:49.:38:54.

ignorant, that these people are creating and producing these racist

:38:55.:38:59.

ideas to justify racist policies. I think people can understand if you

:39:00.:39:03.

are a slave owner and you make money from owning slaves, black slaves,

:39:04.:39:06.

you are going to create racist ideas to convince others that black people

:39:07.:39:11.

should be enslaved. That black people are so barbaric that if they

:39:12.:39:13.

are not enslaved they will just ravage society. Then you have people

:39:14.:39:18.

who consume those and then begin believing those ideas. That anecdote

:39:19.:39:22.

is indicative of the way racist ideas have function throughout

:39:23.:39:27.

American history. Do you worry you may have unwittingly created a

:39:28.:39:32.

compendium of inspirational racists? You site so much verbatim evidence

:39:33.:39:38.

from historical American political giants, from Abraham Lincoln to even

:39:39.:39:41.

Theodore Roosevelt, expressing, well, an explicit fear so that

:39:42.:39:51.

people on the right can say, we are right, even Abraham Lincoln agrees.

:39:52.:39:58.

Unfortunately, as a scholar, I didn't have the opportunity to think

:39:59.:40:03.

of the effect of this definition. I wanted to create a definition of a

:40:04.:40:06.

racist idea which is very simple, any idea that suggests a racial

:40:07.:40:11.

group is superior or inferior to another racial group in anyway. That

:40:12.:40:16.

definition ended up becoming applied to people I didn't realise it was

:40:17.:40:21.

going to be. But again I think that has been one of the problems. That

:40:22.:40:28.

we... So many people have tried to define their ideas outside of

:40:29.:40:32.

racism. And it has left us with a nearer -- and it has left us with an

:40:33.:40:43.

inaccurate idea of it. INAUDIBLE

:40:44.:40:46.

If we actually look at American history. During the enslavement era,

:40:47.:40:55.

by the time of the end of slavery, 4 million, 5 million poor whites,

:40:56.:40:58.

largely kept in poverty due to the riches of slave holders. Then you

:40:59.:41:02.

have the Reconstruction era which was a boon for many working class

:41:03.:41:07.

and poor whites, as it was for pre-blacks. But then that era was of

:41:08.:41:12.

course undermined by the rise of Jim Crow. Ben White poverty rose just as

:41:13.:41:21.

black poverty rose. The civil rights movement was great for black people

:41:22.:41:24.

and also great for many Americans. -- then white poverty rose just as

:41:25.:41:32.

black poverty rose. In this order to this spiralling inequality in white

:41:33.:41:36.

America. Ultimately you see this history of not only racism being bad

:41:37.:41:41.

for black people, but bad for almost everyone. Many thanks for your time

:41:42.:41:42.

this evening. Before we go, it has

:41:43.:41:44.

been ordained that today Yet by whom, and for what purpose,

:41:45.:41:47.

other than to assist news producers in their quest to fill the gaping

:41:48.:41:51.

void marked "content", Marking International Kissing Day

:41:52.:41:54.

will no doubt become Remember to tune in tomorrow,

:41:55.:42:00.

when Evan will be in the chair. That's what's wrong with you -

:42:01.:42:07.

you should be kissed and often. # Woah Baby

:42:08.:42:12.

# (Kiss me Baby) # Woah Baby

:42:13.:42:15.

# (Love to hold you) # Woah Baby

:42:16.:42:18.

#(Kiss me baby) # Woah Baby

:42:19.:42:22.

# (Love to hold you) # Woah Baby

:42:23.:42:28.

# (Kiss me Baby) # Woah Baby

:42:29.:42:33.

# (Love to hold you) # Woah Baby

:42:34.:42:35.

# (Kiss me baby) # Woah Baby

:42:36.:42:37.

# (Love to hold you) Maybe we should kiss just

:42:38.:42:41.

to break the tension? Friday promises to be a quieter day.

:42:42.:43:01.

A damp start with the weather front drifting across Scotland, dragging

:43:02.:43:02.

its

:43:03.:43:03.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines. With James O'Brien.

Trump's warning to the west, the CBI chief defends her Brexit vision, and how close is AI? Plus Ibram X Kendi on his definitive history of racism.


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