06/07/2017 Newsnight


06/07/2017

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I take pride in the words ich bin eine Berliner. The fundamental

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question of our time is whether the West has the will to survive.

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The President says the West may not survive.

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Is he right, or is he part of the problem?

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I think the large English speaking democracies, Britain,

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and the United States, are really moving rapidly

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We'll discuss how the Alliance can weather these storms.

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Also tonight, for some Remainers, the cause endures,

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the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die.

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The head of the CBI will make the case for a Brexit so soft,

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And just how close is artificial intelligence?

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It's literally in the past year we went from a place where it

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would get it right about 80% of the time to a point where now

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it's actually achieved human parody and speech recognition.

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Something may have been lost in translation but Donald Trump

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spent much of his Presidential campaign proudly proclaiming

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that Vladimir Putin had described him as a genius.

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This lofty regard was apparently mutual -

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with Trump regularly expressing his admiration

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Today, however, the American President seemed to place his

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Russian counterpart on the other side of a purported war

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During a speech in the Polish capital, Warsaw, he called on Russia

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to stop destabilising Ukraine and other countries and to end

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support for hostile regimes such as those in Syria and Iran.

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With the pair due to meet tomorrow at the G20 summit in Hamburg,

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Newsnight's Diplomatic Editor Mark Urban has been exploring

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the American President's apocalyptic warning.

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It's the President's second visit to Europe and today's

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speech was billed as a big foreign policy moment.

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Given in Warsaw's Krasinski Square in front of a memorial to the 1944

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uprising against the Nazis, an appreciative audience had been

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It fell to the First Lady to do the warm up.

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The president of the United States, Donald J Trump.

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And with that, Trump set out his stall of a West

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in existential crisis and his formula for success

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While we will always welcome new citizens who share our values

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and love our people, our borders will always

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be closed to terrorism and extremism of any kind.

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Today, the West is also confronted by the powers that

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seek to test our will, undermine our confidence

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To meet new forms of aggression, including propaganda,

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financial crimes and cyber warfare, we must adapt our alliance

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to compete effectively in new ways and on all new battlefields.

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And here, having alluded to the Russian and Chinese threats,

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he did at last state his commitment to Nato's mutual defence

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But it was a distinctly Trumpian formula that shed little light

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on the issue of how the West revives its fortunes economically.

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A large part of the answer to that question depends on whether Macron

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and Merkel can reignite the Franco-German motor,

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rewrite Europe's fiscal rules and really generate growth again

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That is where the hope lies and, if you like, the glass of champagne

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is half full at the moment in Paris and in Berlin.

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Today's speech owes much to White House strategy boss Steve Bannon.

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You have an expansionist Islam and an expansionist China, right?

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They are motivated, they are arrogant,

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they are on the march and they think the Judaeo-Christian West

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His view of the world revolves around hard power and the need

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Even so, many more mainstream conservatives

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I think the president struck the right tone on Polish soil today,

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a strong reiteration, I think, of the importance

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of the transatlantic alliance and a reminder of the values that

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The illiberality of this message and emphasis on religious faith

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worked well for this Polish audience, but it's out of kilter

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It was very significant, not only that he chose Poland,

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you know, which has got that law and justice government,

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a right-wing government, a very Christian government that

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refuses to take refugees from the Middle East

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and is being sued by the EU over that, but it's very significant

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that he, in his speech in Warsaw, did not use the word democracy once.

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The President today claimed that billions and billions of extra

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defence spending was now pouring into Nato as a result

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So typical transactional Trump, having got what he wanted,

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he gave the Europeans what he thought they were after.

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That's all very well, but it hardly builds Western unity.

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After today's Warsaw event, Hamburg looked very different this

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evening as the President arrived for a G20 meeting.

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Violent protests happened pre-Trump, of course,

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but in tone and substance, the President's message is hardly

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I'm joined now by Pulitzer prize winning historian,

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Eric Foner and Susan Glasser - former Foreign Policy editor

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in chief and the first editor of Politico magazine.

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Susan, was it significant, D-Link, or how significant was it that the

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word democracy did not appear at all in that speech? -- do you think.

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Significant but not a surprise. Me doesn't use the word democracy

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often. Some people here were likening his speech to a European

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version of his American carnage and inauguration speech. -- Trump

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doesn't you do a clash of civilisations, harking

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back to Samuel Huntington's 1993 work where is spam replaces Russia

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as the enemy of Western domination in the world. Does that tally with

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what you heard today? What was interesting was Trump was laying out

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this apocalyptic vision of the world divided into the forces of light,

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darkness, and it gives you an insight into what you might call the

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intellectual origins of Trump's outlook. It may seem absurd to put

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intellectual and Trump in the same sentence, because he doesn't read

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books, he has no literature curiosity. But with people like

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Steve Bannon around him, this is their view of the world, that it has

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always been these clashes of civilisations. That our whole

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civilisation is under assault from either Isis or radical Islam, as

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they call it, maybe the Chinese in the future rising. This is a view

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which isn't particularly conducive to compromise, to negotiation. Steve

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Bannon steams to think we are living back in the age of the Crusades

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where Christianity and Islam are at war. -- seems to think. And for the

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future of the world. If you look at Isis, it is ridiculous, it is a

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small group of violent criminal people but they don't pose a threat

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to the US or the UK. I mean, the Cold War, the existence of these

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countries was under threat, you know? From nuclear warfare. But, you

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know, this apocalyptic vision is not really an accurate representation of

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the way the world is today. Yet the rhetoric, Susan, of an assault on

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Western values, it puts bums on seats, doesn't it? What value is

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mighty realistically be able to persuade Americans are being

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threatened by a resurgent China, or and expansionist Islam? It is murky.

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What exactly is the clash of civilisations here? That is why

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Trump's speech today is probably really unlikely to amount to much in

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terms of policy. I was struck by the fact that you know who it reminds me

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of? Vladimir Putin's rhetoric. You captured earlier in the programme

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the tension of this on the one hand critical language towards Russia you

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haven't always seen Trump used. He suggested that they stopped shoring

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Assad. But that is different to the full throated, bombastic even common

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rhetorical nature of this speech. It is actually Vladimir Putin who often

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talks in terms very much like this. He says the number one threat Russia

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and Europe faces is from terrorism. He said that from the beginning of

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his tenure as Russia's leader. And he talks about restoring

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conservative values in a vague way. I think Trump was unclear exactly

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what the existential threat is right now. Do you think he knows himself

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what the existential threat is? Or are you casting him in the role of

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Steve Bannon's glove puppet? It's Steve Bannon, what we call the

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alternative right in the US. There is another forebear of Trump. You

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didn't mention this. But in his speech he started denouncing

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bureaucracy. Nobody likes to defend bureaucracy, but this goes back to

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an obscure radical, James Burnham, who wrote a book in the early 1940s,

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which has been picked up again in these obscure right-wing website to

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argue that the threat today is not from a standard from the

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administrative state. Trump attacks what they call regulation, or that

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kind of thing. That is a trope extreme writers are fond of using,

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that it is the state itself which is the danger to Western freedoms.

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Burnham contended that communism and capitalism were essentially two

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sides of the same undesirable coin. What word would you employ to

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describe whatever alternative it is that they want to replace the old

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world order with? Would you did not mention is that beneath this is an

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exclusive vision of what American civilisation or Western civilisation

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is. It is fundamentally Christian. It is fundamentally white. Other

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peoples don't have a role in it according to them. You could call it

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a white nationalism. That is what we often call it in the US. It is

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explicit now. Not in this speech but in the right-wing website and

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call-in radio. The racial element here. And the religious element is

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very strong. That goes all the way against the traditions of American

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values of separation of church and state and pluralism, and tolerance.

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Those are threats to our civilisation right now. They are

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coming from within. Susan, the meeting with Vladimir Putin

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tomorrow, do you speculate on what a positive outcome might be? I would

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caution people against thinking this is a definitive moment of

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confrontation when we will find out once and for all just what is the

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deal between Trump and Putin, or even find out what our policy is.

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We've just heard there is only going to be Donald Trump and Rex Tillerson

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and their translators in the meeting with Sergei Lavrov, the Foreign

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Minister, and President Putin himself. It is going to be an hour

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or less. Once you add the translation in, it amounts to a

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short chat between two countries. Even if they are talking, has been

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reported, and I terrorism moves, can you imagine any major significant

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arrangement being agreed to in half an hour? -- anti-terrorism moves.

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Forgive me, I need to move on. Thank you both so much for your time this

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evening. Staying with Trump, Russia -

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and, indeed, Ukraine - the Hungarian foreign

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minister, Peter Sijarto, about being positioned both

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politically and geographically right in the middle of the changing

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political landscape. We also discussed Brexit, of course,

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but I began by asking him about his government's perceived

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proximity to the Kremlin and possible problems this poses

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for Hungarian citizens in Ukraine. I don't like this kind

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of stigmatisation. And I don't like this kind

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of simplification of things. It was fair to say it is

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a friendly relationship. And if you live in Central Europe

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you know that you can't afford Because it's not just

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European countries that I'd love to know, where do

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you think, from what he said since becoming President,

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Donald Trump sits on that scale? Well, you know, actually,

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we cross fingers for And we cross fingers for him to be

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able to build a balanced relationship with Russia

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because you know, as I told you, we are living in Central Europe

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and we have a very clear Which says that whenever

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there was a conflict between East and West,

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Central Europe always lost. And we don't want to

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be losers any more. So, when we argue, or when we hope

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for a better relationship between the US and Russia,

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it's not because we are pro-Russia or pro-US,

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it's because we are pro-Hungarian. Did you agree with him

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when he said earlier today I totally agree with the position

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that the civilised world The better the relationship between

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the US and Russia is better for us. The worst relationship between US

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and Russia is the worst for us. You know, we are living

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in central Europe, OK? Is it fair to describe

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Viktor Orban's government as being one of the more Eurosceptic

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in the European Union? No, Hungarian people,

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including the Hungarian government, But what I can tell

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you is the following, that we are absolutely pro-European,

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we want strong European Union because Hungary can be really strong

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in a strong European Union. 80% of our trade goes

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on with the EU countries. So we are interested

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in a strong European Union. But we have a serious

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debate with Brussels, with some other member states,

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about how to get there. So we say that the federalist

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approach will not work out. So we are rather on a sovereignty

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path, saying that strong European Union must be based

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on strong member states. You know, to be very honest,

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we regretted the decision. Because it's a big

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political and economic loss for the European Union,

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because you had a very strong voice in the debate

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about the future of Europe. So this debate will now be

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unbalanced because the leader of one camp, or the strongest voice of one

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camp, falls out. In the meantime, here

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we have a nightmare scenario, If there is no deal,

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if there is no comprehensive economic trade and investment

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agreement, then we will be in big trouble in Europe,

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because the last time we were able to implement a free trade

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agreement was in 2011. So the problem is that the EU is

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very slow on free trade agreements. And if Britain gets free hands,

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then you will be able to sign free trade agreements with India,

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with Turkey, with the US, with Australia, with

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which we do not have. I mean, the European Union doesn't

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have free trade agreements. So if this is the case, then it

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will harm our competitiveness, harm the competitiveness

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of European Union furthermore. So that's why we are pushing

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for a fair, I don't like this Do you understand the

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categorisation, because I don't. You don't understand, OK,

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so that's a common point. We want fair Brexit,

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that's for sure. Balanced, fair Brexit,

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which will end up in mutual benefits But we want the most comprehensive

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economic trade and investment partnership with the UK

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in the future. But I think that we are

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on the right track. I hope European institutions

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are ready to negotiate in a, Because what we don't

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want is the following, that you look back to the time

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of your referendum. Then some of the reactions come

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on behalf of European institutions, where,

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like, as those people took it And we don't want any

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European institutions to sit at the negotiating table as a group

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of insulted people. And we don't want the European

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negotiators or EU negotiators What we want is to have a good

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deal at the end, a fair deal, Earlier this evening,

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the director-general of the CBI Carolyn Fairbairn warned

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in a lecture at the LSE that Brexit uncertainty is starting

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to damage the UK economy. She cited companies changing plans

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and slowing investment in anticipation of what she called

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the "serious disruption" that would ensue if the UK were to leave

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the EU without a deal. Her comments came as International

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Trade Minister Liam Fox appeared to add his weight to his Cabinet

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colleague Andrea Leadsom's recent contention that reporting unwelcome

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statistics about Brexit He claimed in the Commons that some

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elements of the media would rather see Britain fail

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than Brexit succeed. It speaks perhaps too difficult

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truth to you, which is when you describe an environment you consider

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less than conducive to business, you run the risk of making that

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environment even less conducive to business, talking the country down,

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if you like? One of the things that is really important to have now is a

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realistic debate. When we hear from firms across the country large and

:20:23.:20:27.

small about the way uncertainty is beginning to affect investment

:20:28.:20:29.

decisions, I think it is very important that we say that but also

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that we put ideas on the table so what were doing today is putting an

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idea on the table which is not about the weather of Brexit, is about the

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how. Whether with an H. It is about a Brexit that protects jobs and

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investment, that is what we are tabling and a proposal that means

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the UK would stay in the customs union and the single market as a

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bridge to a future deal, it has the added advantage that there will be

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only one transition. How long is the bridge? As short as is possible. It

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is very difficult to tell. It depends on the final point is, the

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final point is very different from today. Win over Canada free trade

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deal took seven years, we hope it would be very much shorter than

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that. It is very important to say this has no interest in anything

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that is open-ended and more uncertainty, so a short as

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practically possible but something that gives businesses the time to

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adapt. You say it is important to have the debate now, why now and not

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a year ago after the Lancaster house speech? There is something very

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important about that because we are heading into the time when companies

:21:45.:21:47.

plan their investment and every sector, every company, has a

:21:48.:21:50.

different point at which they start planning things. So a bakery in

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Northern Ireland, we know it would take them 20 months if they wanted

:21:55.:21:57.

to relocate to the Republic because of tariffs, so they are starting to

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think now about what they are having to do. Airlines, it is a year before

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because they are thinking about passenger reservations. So every

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company has a tipping point and we are heading into that period and

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that is why we are beginning to hear more concern from our members about

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those cliff edges. You did mention the election but you wouldn't be

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making the speech of Theresa May had secured a three figure majority. I

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think we would have done. Word for word? I think so because we have an

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important role to play at the moment, talking about what grassroot

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businesses, large and small, across the country are saying and they are

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saying it is beginning to bite and it is important that we are able to

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say that but also that we have a simple solution on the table. But it

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is not a solution in the strictest sense of the word, it is holding

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tactic, a postponement of either pain the unknown. I think the

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questionnaire dancers is how you give more confidence to business now

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to invest for the future -- I think the question it and so. The economy

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is a flywheel, so investment today is jobs in the future and I think

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our priority today is that, it is so important for growth in the future

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so let's deal with that problem first. The almost irresistible

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subtext of all of this is when we reached the end of the bridge,

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things at that end can't be as good as they were at this end. I think

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that is an area where we should be optimistic. I think we can still say

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that we need to get to an in principle agreement by March 2019.

:23:28.:23:32.

One of the important benefits of the proposal we put on the table today

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is that you can focus all the effort on that final deal, you are not

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talking about some interim other transitional arrangement which would

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take up a lot of time, so we think it would make it more likely to get

:23:45.:23:50.

to that outline deal by March 20 19. Except of course March 2019 is the

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date on which an awful lot of people would be expecting freedom of

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movement to end immediately and your proposal would well, continue at

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indefinitely. Not indefinitely. Indefinitely as in you can't tell me

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how long your bridge is. Firms accept that freedom of movement well

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and and again, this is about trade-offs and about timing. Firms

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are committed to, we know we are going to need to increase training

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and we are going to need to scale up to fill the gaps that are created.

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That is going to take time, so the other thing that the bridge to the

:24:24.:24:26.

future will give us is the chance to prepare, the chance to get ready, so

:24:27.:24:30.

I think that is a transition as well. I think a lot of people

:24:31.:24:33.

watching may be thinking that you would quite like to stay on the

:24:34.:24:37.

bridge for ever, and see you as one of these on crushed saboteurs.

:24:38.:24:44.

Really clear that that is not the case. I will go back to the point

:24:45.:24:48.

that business is one certainty, not some open-ended period of

:24:49.:24:51.

uncertainty, so as short as practically possible but long enough

:24:52.:24:56.

for the Government, for firms, for people to adapt. Businesses do think

:24:57.:25:00.

in years and they will need time to get ready, so it is a practical

:25:01.:25:03.

proposal that gives the certainty now and that bridge to the future.

:25:04.:25:08.

It is practical but it is almost completely unpolitical. Is that the

:25:09.:25:16.

definition of your role, you represent the interests of your

:25:17.:25:18.

members and don't worry about the difficulty that a Prime Minister may

:25:19.:25:20.

have in delivering the plan you describe? Well, I think everybody

:25:21.:25:23.

has an interest in the success of the economy and jobs and prosperity

:25:24.:25:26.

and I think one of the things we have seen since the election that is

:25:27.:25:30.

very welcome is the economy back centrestage, people are talking

:25:31.:25:34.

about it and how we will pay the public services, about the way we

:25:35.:25:37.

have jobs for our children, so I think that is where this comes

:25:38.:25:41.

together. That is why I do think we have a responsibility as businesses

:25:42.:25:45.

to talk about investment today, jobs in the future. So I'm hoping

:25:46.:25:48.

politics and economics can come together in this. Fingers crossed.

:25:49.:25:52.

Carolyn Fairbairn, many thanks indeed.

:25:53.:25:56.

There is always an element of chance in predicting the future, obviously,

:25:57.:26:01.

but the broad consensus among tech watchers is the biggest of all next

:26:02.:26:06.

big things will be AI, or artificial intelligence. Machines will be able

:26:07.:26:10.

to do things that for millennia, we have blithely presumed would always

:26:11.:26:16.

be the exclusive domain of humanity. Reasoning, recognising speech, text,

:26:17.:26:17.

images, collaboration. The impact from jobs to healthcare ,

:26:18.:26:20.

from transport to education is likely to be as profound

:26:21.:26:24.

as the industrial and information Our technology editor David Grossman

:26:25.:26:27.

has been given exclusive access to Microsoft's AI labs in Seattle

:26:28.:26:36.

to see how this There's nothing perhaps that

:26:37.:26:38.

looks quite so dated Seattle's salute to science

:26:39.:26:49.

in the century to come. See how man will live and work

:26:50.:26:58.

and play in the year 2000. Seattle's Space Needle and monorail,

:26:59.:27:03.

built for the '62 World's Fair, probably tell us more

:27:04.:27:06.

about the assumptions of that time Most often, predictions miss

:27:07.:27:09.

the really profound shifts. What Eve will look like in A.D.

:27:10.:27:18.

2000. Like this pre-war assumption

:27:19.:27:21.

that the 21st century woman of fashion would still have a lady's

:27:22.:27:24.

maid to help her dress. Shoes will have cantilever heels

:27:25.:27:29.

and an electric belt will adapt Pity then the people that work here,

:27:30.:27:32.

this is Building 99 In here, the predictions

:27:33.:27:40.

that they make determine the future of the company and perhaps,

:27:41.:27:47.

if they are right, We are betting the company

:27:48.:27:50.

on advances in AI. I've been given exclusive access

:27:51.:27:57.

to meet the people and see the projects that Microsoft believe

:27:58.:28:04.

will shape the future. It reached the point now

:28:05.:28:08.

where people can have, you know, very natural conversations

:28:09.:28:11.

with software and software can I look at how they were

:28:12.:28:13.

actually walking... Eric Horvitz is head

:28:14.:28:22.

of Microsoft's AI programme. Even the lifts here run

:28:23.:28:28.

on this new technology. So much of our civilisation,

:28:29.:28:34.

what we think is special about humans, is based

:28:35.:28:37.

on our intellects, on our ability to see and understand reason,

:28:38.:28:39.

inverse and collaborate to see and understand reason,

:28:40.:28:44.

converse and collaborate and for the first time in history,

:28:45.:28:46.

we are getting close to building machines that have some

:28:47.:28:49.

of that intellect. We went from a place

:28:50.:28:50.

where we would get it right about 80% of the time to a point

:28:51.:28:53.

where, now, it's actually achieved human parity in speech recognition

:28:54.:28:58.

and that's something that just You could probably make sense

:28:59.:29:00.

of the jumble of colours and shapes in this photograph almost instantly,

:29:01.:29:08.

even though chances are you've But consider what it would take

:29:09.:29:11.

for a machine to do that. We've taken natural language

:29:12.:29:17.

processing research, computer vision research and had

:29:18.:29:25.

people from those to field work computer vision research and had

:29:26.:29:32.

people from those two fields work together to be able to generate

:29:33.:29:34.

sentences about pictures. Here, the sentence that we generated

:29:35.:29:36.

with no context other than the contents

:29:37.:29:40.

of the image here is "A man swimming

:29:41.:29:42.

in a pool of water." You know, it used to be the case

:29:43.:29:44.

that it took thousands and thousands of images and hours

:29:45.:29:47.

and hours to train. Now we are down to dozens

:29:48.:29:49.

and minutes and seconds So the building blocks for an AI

:29:50.:29:52.

world are almost complete. Computers can now not only recognise

:29:53.:30:00.

pictures and objects, but gestures and video and speech

:30:01.:30:02.

and text, faces and even emotion. All of these skills can be used

:30:03.:30:06.

by developers in an almost infinite variety of combinations

:30:07.:30:09.

to create new applications. There's been research that

:30:10.:30:17.

Microsoft's been doing Only recently are we seeing these

:30:18.:30:24.

services at the level of quality at a developer can actually build

:30:25.:30:30.

on and have reliable experiences from, because,

:30:31.:30:33.

you know, prior to that, the amount of data required to truly

:30:34.:30:35.

make high, confident predictions from artificial intelligence wasn't

:30:36.:30:37.

there and the computing But a world of super intelligent

:30:38.:30:39.

computers understanding everything isn't everyone's idea

:30:40.:30:52.

of technological perfection. Does any part of this

:30:53.:30:53.

future terrify you at all? I'm concerned with potential

:30:54.:31:02.

misuse of this technology by malevolent forces,

:31:03.:31:06.

by people with ill will. By state and non-state actors

:31:07.:31:11.

who can gain strong powers I haven't also think that the answer

:31:12.:31:14.

to some of that is the AI itself, because there is no better defence

:31:15.:31:20.

and no better detector of And very soon, we might forget

:31:21.:31:26.

we are talking to computers at all. AI systems can have human facing

:31:27.:31:38.

front ends known as bots For example, Xiaoice has been

:31:39.:31:41.

developed by Microsoft to interact with people on Chinese social media

:31:42.:31:49.

and with every conversation, Xiaoice learns both

:31:50.:31:52.

about the individual and humanity. Absolutely, that is what they

:31:53.:31:57.

call me around here. More efficiently, Dan Driscoll

:31:58.:32:03.

is Development Manager and Principal Architect

:32:04.:32:05.

of the Microsoft bot framework. They form emotional connections

:32:06.:32:06.

with some of these chatbots and have I think the average for Xiaoice

:32:07.:32:14.

is 23 turns per conversation, so people will chat, will say,

:32:15.:32:20.

"Hey, how are you doing?" "I am having a good day,

:32:21.:32:22.

how are you doing?" They form a kind of emotional

:32:23.:32:26.

relationship and that is one So many bots have both

:32:27.:32:29.

a sort of like a factual, an IQ component and an emotional

:32:30.:32:33.

or personality EQ component. AI will not only be able

:32:34.:32:41.

to know and recognise everything and everyone,

:32:42.:32:43.

it will know how to charm us, It will know how to reassure us

:32:44.:32:46.

and how to frighten us. Instead of us operating

:32:47.:32:49.

the computers, the computers will be Whoever controls the AI probably

:32:50.:32:52.

controls the future. There's already disquiet about using

:32:53.:32:55.

Big Data to target voters. Well, imagine what an all seeing,

:32:56.:33:02.

all knowing AI could do. Are you concerned at all,

:33:03.:33:22.

for example, about AI elections, AI systems can be designed

:33:23.:33:24.

to persuade, to... In an algorithmic view to optimise

:33:25.:33:28.

goals of changing someone's believes or enhancing the beliefs about one

:33:29.:33:30.

thing or another. The prospect that some day,

:33:31.:33:36.

data mining, data analysis, very close targeting a particular

:33:37.:33:40.

demographics can be used in elections to influence

:33:41.:33:42.

elections is a very, On the one hand, we can see

:33:43.:33:44.

and we can imagine how authoritarian regimes can use these technologies

:33:45.:33:51.

through tracking, surveillance, persuasion, that would

:33:52.:33:53.

strengthen this authoritarian On the other hand, these

:33:54.:33:54.

techniques of AI also open up the world for pluralism,

:33:55.:34:08.

for discussion and collaboration, understanding and tracking,

:34:09.:34:10.

you know, understanding the sources of persuasion and signalling

:34:11.:34:12.

coming into one's life. So we see this prospect of who is

:34:13.:34:14.

going in different directions. So we shouldn't ignore

:34:15.:34:27.

the huge potential benefits. About 30 miles outside Seattle,

:34:28.:34:29.

I saw Microsoft's AI form. Data driven farming

:34:30.:34:31.

could revolutionise how However, measuring precise moisture

:34:32.:34:33.

and nutrient levels for each part of the field would require thousands

:34:34.:34:41.

of sensors and the Instead, an AI model of the farm can

:34:42.:34:44.

be built with just a few sensors in the ground and a few photographs

:34:45.:34:50.

from the air. This is going to help

:34:51.:34:56.

the farmers reduce costs, use much less water,

:34:57.:34:58.

use much less lime, use less fertiliser,

:34:59.:35:00.

use less nutrients and stuff. So this is definitely

:35:01.:35:04.

going to have an impact on reducing the cost as well as less harm

:35:05.:35:07.

on the environment. And the early indications

:35:08.:35:16.

are that yields will rise Using cheap cameras

:35:17.:35:18.

and tethered helium balloons, AI could revolutionise subsistence

:35:19.:35:22.

farming in the developing world. Artificial intelligence is growing

:35:23.:35:27.

fast, getting smarter all the time. While some fear it could end

:35:28.:35:33.

of our species, others believe it Very soon, AI will take off

:35:34.:35:36.

and we will find out if we control It's a mighty tome but when you

:35:37.:35:41.

consider that its author Ibram X Kendi aspires to provide

:35:42.:35:53.

the definitive history of racist ideas in America,

:35:54.:35:55.

it's perhaps surprising that Stamped From The Beginning only runs

:35:56.:35:57.

to just north of 500 pages. The title comes from a speech

:35:58.:36:05.

given to Congress in 1860 by Jefferson Davis, the Mississipi

:36:06.:36:07.

senator who went on to serve as president of the Confederate

:36:08.:36:10.

states of America. He argued that so-called 'black

:36:11.:36:15.

inferiority' had been stamped from the beginning on the bodies

:36:16.:36:17.

of Africans at the Ibram X Kendi joins me down

:36:18.:36:20.

the line from Florida. It is a history book obviously, but

:36:21.:36:38.

it's motivation seems very of the moment. It is because I think I

:36:39.:36:45.

wanted to show readers that we have been engaged in a racial debate, the

:36:46.:36:51.

same racial debate we are engaged in right now, really for hundreds of

:36:52.:36:57.

years. That racial debate seeks to answer the question, why does racial

:36:58.:37:02.

inequality exist? Why do racial disparities exist in our societies?

:37:03.:37:06.

This book really takes the reader through hundreds of years of

:37:07.:37:09.

different people answering that question. And those that have

:37:10.:37:15.

expressed racist ideas have stated racial inequalities, because black

:37:16.:37:19.

people are inferior, and those have expressed anti-racist ideas have

:37:20.:37:24.

been suffering as a result of racial discrimination. Many people would

:37:25.:37:29.

point to the double election of Barack Obama as perhaps the

:37:30.:37:32.

beginning of the end of the history of racism. The one you describe. Yet

:37:33.:37:37.

you describe him as a following in the racist footsteps of every

:37:38.:37:42.

president since Richard Nixon. One of the things I wanted to do is

:37:43.:37:48.

state a very clear definition of a racist idea. And then apply that

:37:49.:37:52.

definition to many different thinkers. And I ended up before

:37:53.:37:57.

applying it to anyone. I ended up applying it to myself and realising

:37:58.:38:01.

that I had even expressed racist ideas. And people I admire like

:38:02.:38:07.

Frederick Douglass, and even Barack Obama, expressed racist ideas,

:38:08.:38:10.

suggesting there was something wrong and inferior about black people. I

:38:11.:38:16.

think that's how powerful and how widespread and how believable these

:38:17.:38:19.

ideas have been throughout American history. You also address the issue

:38:20.:38:25.

of why people in power choose to invoke the fear of a black man, of

:38:26.:38:31.

the black person, in the minds of white people, what answers did you

:38:32.:38:38.

arrive at? I think the underlying, sort of, thesis of the text is

:38:39.:38:44.

showing the ways of which racist ideas are merging and people are

:38:45.:38:48.

consuming those ideas and becoming fearful, becoming hateful, becoming

:38:49.:38:54.

ignorant, that these people are creating and producing these racist

:38:55.:38:59.

ideas to justify racist policies. I think people can understand if you

:39:00.:39:03.

are a slave owner and you make money from owning slaves, black slaves,

:39:04.:39:06.

you are going to create racist ideas to convince others that black people

:39:07.:39:11.

should be enslaved. That black people are so barbaric that if they

:39:12.:39:13.

are not enslaved they will just ravage society. Then you have people

:39:14.:39:18.

who consume those and then begin believing those ideas. That anecdote

:39:19.:39:22.

is indicative of the way racist ideas have function throughout

:39:23.:39:27.

American history. Do you worry you may have unwittingly created a

:39:28.:39:32.

compendium of inspirational racists? You site so much verbatim evidence

:39:33.:39:38.

from historical American political giants, from Abraham Lincoln to even

:39:39.:39:41.

Theodore Roosevelt, expressing, well, an explicit fear so that

:39:42.:39:51.

people on the right can say, we are right, even Abraham Lincoln agrees.

:39:52.:39:58.

Unfortunately, as a scholar, I didn't have the opportunity to think

:39:59.:40:03.

of the effect of this definition. I wanted to create a definition of a

:40:04.:40:06.

racist idea which is very simple, any idea that suggests a racial

:40:07.:40:11.

group is superior or inferior to another racial group in anyway. That

:40:12.:40:16.

definition ended up becoming applied to people I didn't realise it was

:40:17.:40:21.

going to be. But again I think that has been one of the problems. That

:40:22.:40:28.

we... So many people have tried to define their ideas outside of

:40:29.:40:32.

racism. And it has left us with a nearer -- and it has left us with an

:40:33.:40:43.

inaccurate idea of it. INAUDIBLE

:40:44.:40:46.

If we actually look at American history. During the enslavement era,

:40:47.:40:55.

by the time of the end of slavery, 4 million, 5 million poor whites,

:40:56.:40:58.

largely kept in poverty due to the riches of slave holders. Then you

:40:59.:41:02.

have the Reconstruction era which was a boon for many working class

:41:03.:41:07.

and poor whites, as it was for pre-blacks. But then that era was of

:41:08.:41:12.

course undermined by the rise of Jim Crow. Ben White poverty rose just as

:41:13.:41:21.

black poverty rose. The civil rights movement was great for black people

:41:22.:41:24.

and also great for many Americans. -- then white poverty rose just as

:41:25.:41:32.

black poverty rose. In this order to this spiralling inequality in white

:41:33.:41:36.

America. Ultimately you see this history of not only racism being bad

:41:37.:41:41.

for black people, but bad for almost everyone. Many thanks for your time

:41:42.:41:42.

this evening. Before we go, it has

:41:43.:41:44.

been ordained that today Yet by whom, and for what purpose,

:41:45.:41:47.

other than to assist news producers in their quest to fill the gaping

:41:48.:41:51.

void marked "content", Marking International Kissing Day

:41:52.:41:54.

will no doubt become Remember to tune in tomorrow,

:41:55.:42:00.

when Evan will be in the chair. That's what's wrong with you -

:42:01.:42:07.

you should be kissed and often. # Woah Baby

:42:08.:42:12.

# (Kiss me Baby) # Woah Baby

:42:13.:42:15.

# (Love to hold you) # Woah Baby

:42:16.:42:18.

#(Kiss me baby) # Woah Baby

:42:19.:42:22.

# (Love to hold you) # Woah Baby

:42:23.:42:28.

# (Kiss me Baby) # Woah Baby

:42:29.:42:33.

# (Love to hold you) # Woah Baby

:42:34.:42:35.

# (Kiss me baby) # Woah Baby

:42:36.:42:37.

# (Love to hold you) Maybe we should kiss just

:42:38.:42:41.

to break the tension? Friday promises to be a quieter day.

:42:42.:43:01.

A damp start with the weather front drifting across Scotland, dragging

:43:02.:43:02.

its

:43:03.:43:03.

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