10/07/2017 Newsnight


10/07/2017

The programme is with forces attempting to push Islamic State out of Raqqa. There is another Brexit row inside the government. Plus how to survive the next industrial revolution.


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Transcript


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Now they're being pushed out of Raqqa, their de

:00:00.:00:12.

These fighters are coming up against IS snipers in these streets.

:00:13.:00:24.

Other about they've got drones, they've got suicide bombers.

:00:25.:00:26.

This is going to be a very, very hard fight.

:00:27.:00:28.

Advancing forces are discovering the horrors of life

:00:29.:00:30.

Women are on the front line of the war against Isis,

:00:31.:00:44.

So far so good for those that want to see the back of Isis.

:00:45.:01:09.

We'll ask if the Isis ideology will live on,

:01:10.:01:13.

and what happens in the region when the common enemy

:01:14.:01:15.

Also tonight, is this a time for rivals to pull together

:01:16.:01:20.

There are many issues on which I would hope

:01:21.:01:28.

that we will be able to achieve consensus across this house.

:01:29.:01:30.

If the Prime Minister would like it I am very happy

:01:31.:01:33.

to furnish her with a copy of our election manifesto.

:01:34.:01:38.

And we are often told what machines can do these days.

:01:39.:01:41.

What do we humans bring to the party?

:01:42.:01:45.

Two renowned authors tell us how to prepare your children

:01:46.:01:47.

Isis has been defeated in Mosul - the Iraqi prime minister Haider

:01:48.:02:03.

al-Abadi declared victory today on a visit to the city.

:02:04.:02:06.

The so-called Islamic State - with its dreams of a caliphate that

:02:07.:02:11.

straddles national borders - is even more "so-called" now,

:02:12.:02:14.

it's been left with very little in that country -

:02:15.:02:18.

certainly no hub or centre to hold things together.

:02:19.:02:22.

Satisfying as that win is for those who detest Isis,

:02:23.:02:29.

defeating it once and for all is a three-step process

:02:30.:02:31.

The second is to achieve the same in Syria, which means

:02:32.:02:35.

As you'll see in a minute, that struggle is well underway now.

:02:36.:02:40.

The third step is likely to be the hardest -

:02:41.:02:42.

that is about bringing order to the region to remove

:02:43.:02:45.

the bitterness out of which Isis thrives.

:02:46.:02:46.

Cleaning up a region full of messy and overlapping

:02:47.:02:50.

rivalries and tensions - Kurds and Turks, Sunni

:02:51.:02:52.

and Shia plus a lot of foreign powers -

:02:53.:02:54.

But let's go back to that second step, the battle for Raqqa in Syria.

:02:55.:03:01.

Gabriel Gatehouse, along with cameraman Fred Scot

:03:02.:03:06.

and producer Peter Emmerson, have been with those forces,

:03:07.:03:10.

and this his film, on how the battle is being conducted.

:03:11.:03:23.

In Raqqa, Islamic State is making its final stand.

:03:24.:03:37.

Fighting their way into the heart of the caliphate, a fragile

:03:38.:03:41.

coalition of powers, great and small, of Arabs

:03:42.:03:45.

This is more than the final showdown with IS in its capital.

:03:46.:04:21.

I can believe in why I might die, I can die for something

:04:22.:04:24.

Raqqa might be the end of one fight but the beginning of another,

:04:25.:04:28.

a battle for territory, both physical and ideological.

:04:29.:04:31.

They will get there in the end and when they do, the fall of Raqqa

:04:32.:04:35.

will probably mean the end of the caliphate but it won't mean

:04:36.:04:40.

the end of Isis' ideology and it also won't mean the end of this war.

:04:41.:04:49.

This story begins not in Iraq but in Kobani.

:04:50.:04:56.

This story begins not in Raqqa but in Kobani.

:04:57.:04:59.

What remains of this largely Kurdish city stands as a monument

:05:00.:05:01.

to a brutal turning point in the war against Islamic State.

:05:02.:05:08.

It was here that IS reached its high water mark, its territory extending

:05:09.:05:11.

It was here that it met its first significant defeat.

:05:12.:05:27.

Commander Song-huin played her part in that.

:05:28.:05:29.

The cemetery in Kobani testifies to just how high a price Kurdish

:05:30.:05:40.

fighters have already paid in the war against IS.

:05:41.:06:13.

For the Kurds, this is part of a wider battle.

:06:14.:06:16.

For a long held dream of self-determination.

:06:17.:06:23.

But for the commander, the youngest of 11 children

:06:24.:06:26.

in a conservative society, it's also personal.

:06:27.:07:14.

Today, she is in command of around 1,000 fighters

:07:15.:07:18.

Periods of intense fighting are punctuated

:07:19.:07:27.

Together, these men and women make up the Syrian

:07:28.:07:37.

An alliance that includes Arabs but is led by the Kurds.

:07:38.:07:46.

Their success against IS has come thanks in no small part to backing

:07:47.:07:49.

The Americans have quietly built up a presence on the ground, providing

:07:50.:07:55.

With their help, the SDF have chased Islamic State out

:07:56.:08:04.

of Kurdish areas and beyond, reaching across the Euphrates

:08:05.:08:06.

and into mainly Arab territory to the West.

:08:07.:08:09.

The SDF took this city last August after two and a half

:08:10.:08:17.

Here, the Islamic State would sit in judgment over people they deemed

:08:18.:08:28.

Punishments would be meted out in the car park opposite.

:08:29.:08:37.

A local shopkeeper witnessed many of their gruesome executions.

:08:38.:08:43.

Even though IS is gone from here now, he asked

:08:44.:08:45.

us not to reveal his identity for fear of reprisal.

:08:46.:09:22.

Down in the basement, their brutal legacy lingers like a ghost.

:09:23.:09:34.

In this dungeon, IS tortured its prisoners.

:09:35.:09:51.

A policeman showed us the cell where his uncle was kept.

:09:52.:09:58.

When they let him out, after four days, they had

:09:59.:10:12.

In a vast graveyard in the centre of Manbij, its fighters have smashed

:10:13.:10:28.

And even though Islamic State has been chased out of town that doesn't

:10:29.:10:39.

From Manbij we get a sense of what lies ahead.

:10:40.:11:15.

It has been a long road to the capital of the caliphate.

:11:16.:11:20.

The final stretch may be the hardest yet.

:11:21.:11:28.

The commander and her unit are on the western front.

:11:29.:11:31.

It's a tight squeeze inside a home-made armoured truck

:11:32.:11:34.

with a couple of her fighters driving towards the centre of Raqqa.

:11:35.:11:45.

Islamic State are supposed to be surrounded inside the old city.

:11:46.:11:49.

And they frequently pop up where you don't expect them.

:11:50.:12:06.

These fighters are coming up against IS snipers in all of these

:12:07.:12:09.

Other than that, they've got drones, they've got suicide car bombs.

:12:10.:12:15.

This is going to be a very, very hard fight into the centre of Raqqa.

:12:16.:12:20.

Back at base, the commander and her fellow commanders

:12:21.:12:22.

As the fight enters the narrow streets of the city

:12:23.:12:30.

they are constantly having to adjust tactics.

:12:31.:12:54.

But what does a Kurdish-led coalition do when it

:12:55.:13:01.

captures the capital of Sunni Arab fundamentalism?

:13:02.:13:06.

Well, there is a plan for Raqqa after the fall of Islamic State

:13:07.:13:09.

Here, a multi-ethnic military and civil council has brought life

:13:10.:13:20.

and stability back to this mainly Arab city under the auspices

:13:21.:13:23.

The anti-IS coalition sees Manbij as a template for Raqqa, post-IS.

:13:24.:13:56.

But it is at best a temporary arrangement.

:13:57.:14:01.

Syria has been at war for more than six years now.

:14:02.:14:06.

Longer than the whole of World War II.

:14:07.:14:13.

The fight against the Islamic State is but one facet of an ongoing

:14:14.:14:17.

conflict in which the world's big powers, the US, Russia and others,

:14:18.:14:20.

have not only interests but troops on the ground.

:14:21.:14:26.

From a hilltop overlooking the Manbij countryside,

:14:27.:14:33.

a local Kurdish commander showed me the point at which all of these

:14:34.:14:36.

OK, well, it's a pretty complicated picture but basically

:14:37.:14:45.

From the West, all the way up to the north, up

:14:46.:14:55.

over there is controlled by the Americans.

:14:56.:14:59.

From that same western point all the way to the South

:15:00.:15:02.

In the middle of that is the pocket of the Manbij Military Council

:15:03.:15:09.

which is an Arab Kurdish coalition but is basically

:15:10.:15:11.

But in between all of that is a Russian base just over

:15:12.:15:19.

there, an American base just four kilometres along from that,

:15:20.:15:21.

and surrounding all of it are FSA forces, Free Syrian Army,

:15:22.:15:25.

that are basically sponsored by the Turks.

:15:26.:15:34.

For now, the battle against Islamic State provides

:15:35.:15:36.

a kind of common purpose but once IS is gone, the potential

:15:37.:15:39.

for conflict between these big powers is very real.

:15:40.:16:03.

The Kurds are in a difficult position.

:16:04.:16:09.

Their fighters belonged to a branch of the PKK,

:16:10.:16:12.

which is considered a terrorist organisation by both Turkey

:16:13.:16:15.

For now, the Syrian Kurds have the backing of the Americans

:16:16.:16:22.

but Turkey, a Nato ally, carries out sporadic

:16:23.:16:28.

And that's because their fight against the Islamic State is really

:16:29.:16:37.

They call it a revolution and it's attracting its share

:16:38.:16:42.

One of the fighters in the commander's units is Kimi Taylor.

:16:43.:16:46.

Originally from Blackburn, she's a former maths student who has

:16:47.:16:49.

left behind a life of activism at home to come to Syria

:16:50.:16:52.

There's just a million ways to die here, it's not just on the front,

:16:53.:16:59.

It's like a huge space of war that is like even though it

:17:00.:17:05.

seems peaceful here, anything can happen.

:17:06.:17:11.

What are the biggest worries, the biggest threats?

:17:12.:17:16.

On the moving front, where we're moving to take more space,

:17:17.:17:19.

There are mines everywhere and there's snipers everywhere.

:17:20.:17:22.

No, there is something bigger than me.

:17:23.:17:30.

It's for people here, for women here and for women

:17:31.:17:37.

all in the Middle East and maybe potentially the world.

:17:38.:17:39.

Those who have given their lives to this cause

:17:40.:17:41.

To a social revolution with its roots in Marxist-Leninist ideology.

:17:42.:17:48.

It's a movement that tolerates little dissent.

:17:49.:17:53.

Opposition activists have been jailed and thousands of young people

:17:54.:17:59.

have fled to escape conscription, such is the way of revolutions.

:18:00.:18:05.

For the commander, a true believer, the fight against IS is but one

:18:06.:18:08.

battle in a longer war to convert her own

:18:09.:18:17.

Meanwhile, on the Raqqa front line there is still much

:18:18.:18:52.

Inching their way into the city, house by house.

:18:53.:19:01.

The fighters are so close they can hear IS in the building

:19:02.:19:04.

This is, of course, a battle for territory.

:19:05.:19:09.

They're fighting to take the capital of the caliphate.

:19:10.:19:14.

Everyone's just swinging into action.

:19:15.:19:19.

They think they've got some Isis snipers in the buildings around.

:19:20.:19:27.

They are moving here, they moving here.

:19:28.:19:37.

They now face Islamic State at perhaps its most dangerous.

:19:38.:19:40.

Wounded, cornered and with nothing left to lose.

:19:41.:19:44.

The question is, can their revolution survive

:19:45.:19:58.

the collapse of the caliphate in the face of Syria's

:19:59.:20:00.

Gabriel Gatehouse working with Fred Scott and Peter Emmerson.

:20:01.:20:17.

It's not difficult for victory in a war to lead to chaos,

:20:18.:20:20.

or another war in that region if the aftermath is not

:20:21.:20:22.

So let's accept that the physical battle against Isis is going well,

:20:23.:20:26.

and ask what might go wrong thereafter.

:20:27.:20:29.

Sheelagh Stewart is a conflict expert at the British Council -

:20:30.:20:32.

she was formerly at the UN and also served as the Head of the UK

:20:33.:20:35.

Government Stabilisation Unit, which tackles instability overseas.

:20:36.:20:37.

Mina Al-Oraibi is a British Iraqi journalist and editor

:20:38.:20:39.

in chief at The National, based in Abu Dhabi.

:20:40.:20:41.

And joining us from Brussels is Hoshyar Zebari, former

:20:42.:20:43.

Thank you all very much for coming in. We will divide this conversation

:20:44.:20:58.

into three sections. First, Mina, I want to start with you. Is this

:20:59.:21:02.

really the end of Isis. How difficult is it to eradicate that

:21:03.:21:07.

movement and its ideology by simply taking away its territory. It is

:21:08.:21:12.

difficult, Isis was not something just born in 2014 when they took the

:21:13.:21:18.

physical territory in Iraq. Previously to that we had militants

:21:19.:21:23.

roaming the street. Isis is a consequence of factors that continue

:21:24.:21:29.

to be present in both Iraq and Isis. So it is an ideology but it is also

:21:30.:21:35.

born of a security vacuum. Areas that did not have proper policing or

:21:36.:21:40.

proper defence for citizens. You have organised crime that had

:21:41.:21:44.

nothing to do with ideology and was much more opportunistic. And it's

:21:45.:21:48.

very hard to see how the ground will be held because as your report said

:21:49.:21:52.

there are so many different competing groups who all bear arms,

:21:53.:21:55.

and you have fighting forces that will put together to fight Isis and

:21:56.:22:01.

now Isis are gone they are still armed to the teeth. And there are

:22:02.:22:06.

many young people, and, without prospects of jobs or anywhere to go

:22:07.:22:13.

except fight another war. Are you worried that Isis will pop up

:22:14.:22:18.

elsewhere, Willie ideology and in it? I think it's quite rightly, that

:22:19.:22:23.

the military defeat and loss of territory cuts off two forms of

:22:24.:22:28.

support for Isis, the first is their legitimacy because they claim to run

:22:29.:22:31.

a caliphate and the second is that they have used the holding of

:22:32.:22:35.

territory to raise money. So it is a definite step forward that the

:22:36.:22:40.

caliphate has been defeated. However conflict breeds conflict. It is very

:22:41.:22:46.

clear that from Isis's tactics they already retrenching and talking

:22:47.:22:51.

about to domestic terror, sponsoring lone wolf activities. And that is

:22:52.:22:54.

the kind of thing that is very difficult to stop and will bring

:22:55.:23:00.

further conflict. Hoshyar Zebari, I assume that you will agree that this

:23:01.:23:04.

is not necessarily the end of Isis. Tel us would you to do to make sure

:23:05.:23:09.

that the fighters are not a threat and the ideology would have less

:23:10.:23:13.

appeal. Definitely the military successes in Mosul and that

:23:14.:23:20.

declaration of victory, the date of Mosul liberation, even without a

:23:21.:23:25.

victory lap it is a significant achievement for the Iraqi security

:23:26.:23:31.

forces, for the Peshmerga forces and the volunteers. And for the people

:23:32.:23:36.

of Mosul who have been really traumatised and brutally treated by

:23:37.:23:41.

Isis over the last few years. But defeating Isis physically or

:23:42.:23:46.

militarily or destroying the caliphate of hatred is very

:23:47.:23:58.

important first successes of recruitment from foreign countries,

:23:59.:24:01.

that is a significant achievement. But we need, in the post-ISIS

:24:02.:24:06.

period, to do reconstruction as quickly as possible. The level of

:24:07.:24:15.

destruction in Mosul is devastating. And also to have real political

:24:16.:24:21.

reconciliations and good governors of Mosul afterwards. Here we believe

:24:22.:24:27.

that the government on the military sides have been successful but on

:24:28.:24:33.

the service sides, on the political side, this didn't matter, these

:24:34.:24:38.

military successes. But Isis will not finish after their defeat in

:24:39.:24:44.

Mosul, or dislodging them... You all agree on that. Mina, on that last

:24:45.:24:52.

topic of Isis, what is to keep Isis from being a powerful force in

:24:53.:24:56.

future, is it about the Iraqi government being more inclusive and

:24:57.:25:01.

more inclusive arrangements on a civic level? It's also about

:25:02.:25:11.

providing security for citizens and services, and giving people a sense

:25:12.:25:13.

that the government takes care of everyone regardless of their

:25:14.:25:18.

background. It's important to remember that despite these armed

:25:19.:25:23.

groups they will be able to continue unless there is proper justice and

:25:24.:25:26.

in terms of holding those accountable who were not only part

:25:27.:25:31.

of Isis but encouraged them to take hold of Mosul. Three years ago there

:25:32.:25:35.

was a different commander in chief, the current one has done a stellar

:25:36.:25:39.

job in putting the army together but there was a different one, which

:25:40.:25:45.

allowed the full of Mosul and did not give the order of the army to

:25:46.:25:49.

protect the city. Let's move onto the second section, the region.

:25:50.:25:57.

Sheelagh, there are so many players there, they don't get on, they've

:25:58.:26:01.

got this one common enemy, is there a danger of another war there? I

:26:02.:26:07.

think that is quite likely. I think in terms of securing the region, the

:26:08.:26:12.

first steps of trying to announce the boil of this immediate conflict,

:26:13.:26:16.

that's about establishing law and order in those areas first, getting

:26:17.:26:22.

humanitarian aid in, and then starting to lay a path towards

:26:23.:26:25.

normality for people so they can see that life will become normal again.

:26:26.:26:33.

Who is we? It's different in both countries. Haider al-Abadi must take

:26:34.:26:37.

the lead in Iraq. I think there's a chink of light all the

:26:38.:26:40.

reconstruction in Falluja has been pretty slow but Haider al-Abadi has

:26:41.:26:44.

made concessionary noises and is starting to talk about the

:26:45.:26:47.

possibility of including Sunni people. Isis wasn't the start of the

:26:48.:26:55.

problem, the exclusion of Sunni people across the region laid the

:26:56.:27:00.

fertile soil in which the Isis narrative was sown. Syria, or

:27:01.:27:03.

together a different matter of complexity. -- altogether. Hoshyar,

:27:04.:27:12.

what should the American role be. The Americans are there with 500 or

:27:13.:27:20.

soap troops in Syria, do you see the Americans living and getting out of

:27:21.:27:25.

the way -- 500 or so. They stay because everybody is there? I think

:27:26.:27:29.

America are going to stay until the defeat of Isis or the liberation of

:27:30.:27:40.

Raqqa is complete. Raqqa is the administrative capital of Isis or

:27:41.:27:43.

Daesh. Therefore I believe that they are committed. And thanks to the

:27:44.:27:49.

critical support and their attacks and the ground support through

:27:50.:27:57.

advisers, really the SDF forces have managed to achieve those successes.

:27:58.:28:03.

Without American support these victories would not have been

:28:04.:28:09.

possible at all. Without the International coalition and

:28:10.:28:12.

generally... In a word you would welcome the Americans staying even

:28:13.:28:16.

beyond the point at which Raqqa has been taken? I think there really is

:28:17.:28:23.

important, reassuring, I think it will inspire confidence in the local

:28:24.:28:27.

fighters and the local population so their continued engagement is very

:28:28.:28:34.

important. Mina, give us your take on the general picture of

:28:35.:28:37.

instability or stability. Are you optimistic that there can be some

:28:38.:28:42.

stability in Iraq and Syria, two different theatres? They are two

:28:43.:28:47.

ready different scenarios because Iraq has an internationally

:28:48.:28:50.

recognised government, we have a functioning Kurdish regional

:28:51.:28:53.

government that works together when they disagree, Syria is much more

:28:54.:28:57.

complex. It's hard to be optimistic with so much that has been lost.

:28:58.:29:03.

It's difficult to see a ray of hope in that sense but I think there is a

:29:04.:29:08.

moment to see, today we have seen a very significant victory in terms of

:29:09.:29:12.

liberating Mosul from Isis but it has come at a very high cost for

:29:13.:29:18.

people. Pictures of the destruction are shocking. My third topic and I

:29:19.:29:25.

will get you to lead off on this one, Hoshyar, it is the Kurds.

:29:26.:29:31.

Another thing that could go wrong, a full-scale argument between the

:29:32.:29:35.

Turks, the Kurds, there are divisions within the Iraqi Kurds and

:29:36.:29:39.

the Syrian Kurds. What is the prospect of the Kurds getting a

:29:40.:29:42.

potentially independent state? Here, we must distinguish between

:29:43.:29:56.

Syrian Kurds, Iraqi Kurds and other Kurds. Iraqi Kurds have decided to

:29:57.:30:01.

hold a referendum on self-determination on the 25th of

:30:02.:30:07.

September. This decision is irreversible and a majority of the

:30:08.:30:11.

Kurdish leaders in fact have agreed to do that. But this would be for

:30:12.:30:19.

Iraqi Kurds, because of really great frustration with the Iraqi

:30:20.:30:26.

government... Sorry to interrupt, but is it going to be chaos? If the

:30:27.:30:33.

Iraqi Kurds voted for independence, is it going to be chaos or not? No,

:30:34.:30:39.

it wouldn't be chaos actually, this referendum will do its best to

:30:40.:30:44.

prevent a further conflict and was and bloodshed, in my view. Do you

:30:45.:30:51.

agree that the Kurdish situation can be stable or is it chaotic? It's

:30:52.:31:00.

going to be very difficult, it could be completely chaotic. They are

:31:01.:31:04.

obviously in with a clear agenda and they have been passionately

:31:05.:31:08.

committed to independence. I think the key thing is, if the West has

:31:09.:31:12.

any credit, to pull together some kind of move towards a common

:31:13.:31:16.

purpose but it's hard to see where you can go from here. We've

:31:17.:31:21.

discussed the Kurds, the General security in the region and the

:31:22.:31:28.

prospects for. Thank you. -- prospects for peace.

:31:29.:31:31.

Theresa May has a new idea for managing a minority government -

:31:32.:31:34.

asking the opposition to give her a hand.

:31:35.:31:36.

Her suggestion will be set out in a speech tomorrow,

:31:37.:31:39.

but she was in the Commons today and couldn't avoid the subject.

:31:40.:31:42.

Labour wasn't exactly positive about the idea.

:31:43.:31:44.

The government is apparently now asking other parties

:31:45.:31:46.

And so, if the Prime Minister would like it, I'm very happy

:31:47.:31:50.

to furnish her with a copy of our election manifesto.

:31:51.:31:53.

Or, better still, an early election in order that the people

:31:54.:31:56.

Mr Speaker, there are many issues on which I would hope

:31:57.:32:03.

that we would be able to achieve consensus across this House.

:32:04.:32:08.

Our political editor Nick Watt is here.

:32:09.:32:12.

Quite a busy day. You saw Jeremy Corbyn mocking Theresa May I think

:32:13.:32:24.

in that clip. What is the importance of this launch tomorrow? We will see

:32:25.:32:28.

the new look bipartisan Theresa May tomorrow when she attends the launch

:32:29.:32:32.

of the report into the so-called gig economy by the fauna Tony Blair

:32:33.:32:39.

adviser, Matthew Taylor -- former adviser. She wants to send two

:32:40.:32:43.

messages, firstly that her government can do more than

:32:44.:32:45.

delivering Brexit and she acknowledges that her minority

:32:46.:32:49.

government needs the support of other parties if it is to deliver

:32:50.:32:56.

radical change in three areas, counterterrorism, industrial

:32:57.:32:58.

strategy and workers' rights. They say that the Taylor report which is

:32:59.:33:05.

about short-term contracts and zero-hour contracts is the perfect

:33:06.:33:08.

opportunity to highlight this approach. One senior government

:33:09.:33:13.

figure did say, how can Labour disagree with a report written by

:33:14.:33:17.

one of their former advertisers? Of course Matthew Taylor was an adviser

:33:18.:33:21.

to Tony Blair, which perhaps explains why Jeremy Corbyn is rather

:33:22.:33:27.

dismissive. The other thing that happened when Theresa May was on her

:33:28.:33:32.

feet, Cape emerging of another Tory MP using some rather inappropriate

:33:33.:33:37.

language in a meeting. -- tape emerging. She was in the Commons

:33:38.:33:43.

when it emerged that Anne Marie Morris had used a racially offensive

:33:44.:33:47.

word to describe the dangers of the UK leaving the EU. Anne Marie Morris

:33:48.:33:58.

apologised for any offence that may have been caused by what she called

:33:59.:34:01.

unintentional remarks but when Theresa May was cold about this she

:34:02.:34:05.

felt it was so important, she conveyed a meeting immediately with

:34:06.:34:10.

her Chief Whip Gavin Williamson and they took action on two France. The

:34:11.:34:16.

party whip was suspended from the backbench MP and Theresa May issued

:34:17.:34:20.

a statement saying the words were completely unacceptable and have no

:34:21.:34:24.

place in our politics and society -- took action on two fronts. Brexit,

:34:25.:34:35.

can't get away from it because there is another issue that has been

:34:36.:34:42.

lurking, the issue about nuclear regulation, Euratom, what Britain

:34:43.:34:48.

will do? There is cooperation in one area, Ed Vaizey, the former Tory

:34:49.:34:52.

arts minister has launched a campaign with Rachel Reeves, the

:34:53.:34:54.

former Labour Shadow Cabinet Minister, to keep the UK in Euratom,

:34:55.:35:00.

the treaty governing the movement of nuclear material around Europe. The

:35:01.:35:06.

Evening Standard, edited by that well-known anti-Brexit campaigner,

:35:07.:35:10.

George Osborne, highlighted concerns today amongst radiologists that

:35:11.:35:13.

withdrawal from the treaty could threaten the supply of radioactive

:35:14.:35:19.

isotopes. Euratom is not technically and Mac EU treaty but it is overseen

:35:20.:35:26.

by the European Court of Justice and the history is that government

:35:27.:35:29.

lawyers advised ministers earlier in the year that they couldn't

:35:30.:35:33.

guarantee a clean Article 50 triggering unless the UK signalled

:35:34.:35:36.

that it was going to pull-out Euratom because of it being overseen

:35:37.:35:43.

by the ECJ. Theresa May on three occasions in the Commons this

:35:44.:35:45.

afternoon said that the UK will be leaving Euratom but government

:35:46.:35:50.

sources say that the Prime Minister would like to replicate it exactly

:35:51.:35:56.

in the nuclear safeguards built. One ministerial source said to me that

:35:57.:36:01.

the UK will not be leaving Euratom, we don't have the numbers in

:36:02.:36:04.

parliament to leave it -- in the nuclear safeguards Bill. Thank you

:36:05.:36:08.

for joining us. How is technology

:36:09.:36:10.

changing the world? We know the Ubers and Airbnbs come

:36:11.:36:12.

from nowhere to world dominance. We know the gig economy has

:36:13.:36:15.

expanded as part of that. But a new book tries to encapsulate

:36:16.:36:17.

many of the economic and business effects of disruptive technology

:36:18.:36:20.

in three words. The book is more than three words,

:36:21.:36:25.

it's actually over 100,000, but its message boils down to three

:36:26.:36:29.

- machines, platforms... The two authors think understanding

:36:30.:36:31.

these three is the key to understanding the way

:36:32.:36:36.

everything is being uprooted. They are both massively rated

:36:37.:36:38.

experts on this area Thank you for joining us. The three

:36:39.:36:53.

words, machines, platforms, crowds, give me an example, either of you,

:36:54.:37:00.

of how they interact that causes disruption of some kind. A great

:37:01.:37:04.

example of all three of them is a recent competition run in the United

:37:05.:37:10.

States by the people looking at baggage coming through airports and

:37:11.:37:14.

they created a contest among millions of data scientists to come

:37:15.:37:19.

up with a better way to use machines to scan through the x-rays and

:37:20.:37:22.

identify potentially dangerous materials. This was a platform that

:37:23.:37:29.

reached out to a lot of people. The technology is the machine, the

:37:30.:37:32.

platform and in the crowd the people who are giving about what to do.

:37:33.:37:37.

That's right. Another example, a crowd sourced quantitative hedge

:37:38.:37:42.

funds that will start later this year, a start-up in Boston, using

:37:43.:37:48.

machines to make investment decisions, building a platform to

:37:49.:37:53.

find the most talented quantitative investors out there, whether or not

:37:54.:37:56.

they are working for an investment house and the crowd are the hundreds

:37:57.:38:01.

of people who are potentially good at doing this kind of investing.

:38:02.:38:06.

Tell me what humans are going to be good for, because we know that

:38:07.:38:09.

machines will become more important, that is part of the book. What are

:38:10.:38:14.

the specialist skills that we retain that the machines are not going to

:38:15.:38:19.

have? Most skills, machines are good at narrow skills but we want to be

:38:20.:38:24.

clear, the problem we are facing is not a world without work, it is a

:38:25.:38:28.

world of rapidly changing work. There is no better time in history

:38:29.:38:35.

to be a talented art artist or scientist and there are huge

:38:36.:38:38.

opportunities in the caring professions, motivating. Social

:38:39.:38:44.

care, old age care. Absolutely. Machines will never be as good at

:38:45.:38:49.

that. Never say never, one thing we learned in writing the book was

:38:50.:38:52.

never to say never but in the next few Mac decades, most of us prefer

:38:53.:38:56.

interacting with other humans. Part of the concerns that people have are

:38:57.:39:02.

not that the jobs will run out, but they will either be slave jobs, the

:39:03.:39:09.

underclass or you will be the Afterburn, the creative, and you

:39:10.:39:15.

will be fine and we all going to be that -- you will be the

:39:16.:39:21.

entrepreneur. You talk about soccer and being the football coach, it is

:39:22.:39:29.

a solid job, respected in the Kim Ye-Ji, not going to be replaced by a

:39:30.:39:34.

robot any time soon -- respected in the community. The coach taps into

:39:35.:39:40.

the social drives and that isn't going anywhere soon. Emotional

:39:41.:39:45.

intelligence is a important thing. That's great, we need that more than

:39:46.:39:51.

ever. The book is aimed at the business community and the

:39:52.:39:54.

companies, what do you think countries should do? I'm thinking of

:39:55.:39:58.

a middle to large size country may be thinking of changing its

:39:59.:40:03.

direction. OK! There is quite a big debate over industrial policy and it

:40:04.:40:08.

is a blank piece of paper looking for ideas. Often industrial policy

:40:09.:40:13.

means doubling down on one particular thing we think is going

:40:14.:40:17.

to be big in the future. The track record of that policy is really

:40:18.:40:22.

dismal. What I think a country should do is set up the right

:40:23.:40:27.

environment for innovation and entrepreneurship, let the

:40:28.:40:29.

experiments happen, let failure happen even if it is to a company

:40:30.:40:36.

that is important now and let that creative destruction happen. Let it

:40:37.:40:42.

happen. That's a big part of it, also investing in education, not

:40:43.:40:48.

just spending more, but encouraging emotional intelligence, encouraging

:40:49.:40:51.

creativity. When we visit schools today, many of them seem designed to

:40:52.:40:57.

crush that so we could do a lot to help it flourish. That's what we

:40:58.:41:00.

need in the second machine age in this era going forward. In the

:41:01.:41:05.

industrial era we needed workers who could follow instructions and listen

:41:06.:41:08.

to authority and the education system does a good job of turning

:41:09.:41:12.

out those workers. We don't need them any more. Thank you for joining

:41:13.:41:13.

us. If you're one of the increasing

:41:14.:41:16.

number who's started watching BBC Two on our high definition

:41:17.:41:20.

channel, you've probably become fairly expert by now in dating every

:41:21.:41:23.

piece of footage you see to the correct decade just

:41:24.:41:26.

by looking at the image quality So you'll probably appreciate

:41:27.:41:29.

the work of artist Marina Amaral, whose speciality is bringing

:41:30.:41:36.

old images to life by carefully researching what the original scene

:41:37.:41:38.

would have looked like, and then meticulously colouring

:41:39.:41:40.

and enhancing the image If you're not watching in HD -

:41:41.:41:42.

well the weather forecast # I've hungered

:41:43.:41:50.

for your touch Gardeners amongst you in England and

:41:51.:43:01.

Wales will be happy that there is some

:43:02.:43:02.

The programme is with forces attempting to push Islamic State out of Raqqa. There is another Brexit row inside the government. Plus how to survive the next industrial revolution. With Evan Davis.