13/07/2017 Newsnight

Grenfell - the regulations not fit for the job.

It wasn't just horrific flames but poisonous gases that killed.

Could changing rules on cladding have contributed?

So, this small amount of material, if it

burned in a house or flat, would be enough to fill the whole house or

Enough to stop you escaping and kill you.

We'll be asking, just how long will it take before

we can trust the rules will improve safety and not undermine it?

As that Great EU Repeal Bill is finally published, we ask,

I'm hoping the government are going to let us amend our lot of this bill

and on that basis we might be able to support it.

But we can't at the moment because it is so

# I could kill, but I don't care about it.

And we catch up with the man who wrote this song.

What have you been doing in the years when we haven't

Hmm, I suppose it was like spiritual research,

Grenfell is one of those events that changes attitudes and opens our eyes

to subjects that before the horrific events of a month ago

were the preserve of experts, bureaucrats and the people -

often ignored - who were living every day with risk.

Tonight, Newsnight has new evidence that building regulations

We reveal that the Government is preparing a major review

of those regulations, and show that honourable efforts

to make buildings more energy efficient could have inadvertently

Tell us what this review is going to look at. The big thing is to

understand is the government has been looking at local authority

housing and social housing and the cladding and what came up is the

astounded to discover that the rule book they thought they had written

is simply not is what is being practised on the ground, there is a

gap between where they expect standards to be and where they are.

This review is working out whether the rule book is a problem or

implementation of the enforcement? All of these things are on the

table. The big issue is, how long will this take? People are living in

these flats all around the country. Local authorities are dealing with

short-term issues but longer term the government will have to do

something about this and this review will clash with the judicial enquiry

and the police investigations and they will be asking the same

questions so it will take a long time and we have made a film today

that explains just how troubled and difficult rebuilding regulations now

really are. The Grenfell Tower fire had a lot of causes, direct and

indirect but the problems here and those discovered in other tower

blocks reflect that building rules have not kept pace with construction

methods. The government have prioritised insulation over fire

safety and it is quite a tempting proposition because insulation

affects every building, fires only affect a very small number. Thermal

efficiency is the part of the building codes that have changed

most in the last 40 years. After the oil shock in the 1970s and more

recently because of concerns about climate change and fuel poverty.

Quite rightly, the rules have aimed for ever warmer homes. What do those

changes over the last few decades mean in practice? Here is a thought

experiment that might help you get your head around this. Suppose you

have a bare brick wall adjective do something to get it past a building

inspector concerned about thermal efficiency? In the 1960s all you

needed to do was the equivalent of sticking a very thin sheet, just 15

millimetres of old-fashioned mineral bull insulation, and you would be

fine but standards have risen and by the 1990s you would need to stick

around 90 millimetres to the wall to get it past the inspector. These

days, you need to stick around 120 millimetres to the wall to get it

through that inspection. The thing is, builders don't build to the

minimum standards and at Grenfell Tower, the cladding introduced a

level of insulation that was equivalent in our experiment did 200

millimetres of insulation to the wall. The Grenfell planning

application explained... There is another reason why

developers have gone well beyond the basic requirements for energy

efficiency. At Grenfell Tower, the renovation actually got funded in

part by something called the energy company obligation, our public

policy intervention by the government which forces energy

companies to put money into making older buildings more energy

efficient. In the Grenfell Tower case, that money went into a new

district heating system, not insulation. But if you go down the

road, that is the Ed Woodward 's estate and in that case the

eco-money went straight into a new noncombustible insulation on the

outside of the towers. These policies, regulations and

initiatives are sharpened up incentives for builders to try new

insulators, like so-called PIR plastic foams, the insulation at

Grenfell Tower. It is a better insulator and therefore it is going

to give better heat economy for the same thickness of material or the

same weight of maternal. It is cheaper and it is lighter so it is

going to require less material to hold it in place and it is going to

require less cost in terms of lifting it up to whenever you are

going to install it. But it obviously has this big drawback in

terms of fire safety but the phone is organic based and is combustible.

The rules advise that insulation in tall buildings should not be

flammable but in the lead to is, I rule was introduced stating you can

use such combustible materials on a tall building if it passes the test.

You have to replicate the design you want to install and then set a fire

under it. But here is a video produced by insulation manufacturer

for its customers. As an alternative to a full test, it highlights a

desktop study. If an engineer believes something similar to your

design has already been tested, you don't need to test yours. Newsnight

has already revealed how some engineers really stretch the

definition of what is similar in these desktop studies to avoid

further tests. For example, we have shown how tests using ceramic tiles

have been used to justify avoiding testing with aluminium panels. Two

different substances. We have revealed how some building

inspection agencies have been routinely signing on using

combustible insulation and exterior cladding without even so much as a

desktop study. So there has been too little testing and the ones that

have been done are confidential. The trouble is some manufacturers we

know have an extensive library of the full-scale tests to prove their

material. Others, it is difficult to discern whether they have or not so

reliant on the way they market the product to us. If you see a claim

saying this product is suitable above 18 metres and then you read

governing authorities' literature endorsing that, we will believe that

is suitable. One company that ensures industrial buildings got

worried about the tests themselves. We have seen several fires involving

combustible insulation and we were concerned that the laboratory tests

on this type of plastic insulation did not reflect the risk in the real

world. Normal lab test installation is installed to perfect standards

but if you years ago the insurer commissioned tests on this widely

made insulation type installed with real-world, normal workmanship. The

traditional insulation held out for one hour. But the combustible PIR

insulation did not. The fire monitoring equipment was destroyed

in about 70 minutes by the heat. A much worse performance than previous

lab tests suggested. There is also a problem with toxicity. The trouble

but this material is that it has got a lot of nitrogen in it and when it

burns, it produces both carbon monoxide and hydrogen cyanide and so

the small amount of material, if it burned in a house or a flat, would

fill the whole flat or house with toxic smoke, enough to stop the

escaping and killed you. Hospital discharge papers from one Grenfell

resident seen by Newsnight showed they had cyanide poisoning.

The British Rigid Urethane Foam Manufacturers' Association said...

They also stated that the design of the

The government has been shocked to learn this month how far far

standards are from where they had expected. That is why they believe a

review is now necessary. Chris Cook, there.

Jonathan O'Neill is Managing Director of the Fire

He joins us from Worcester. Thank you for joining us. The testing

regime is obviously flawed. You presumably welcomed this

announcement that there will be this review and overhaul? Well, we have

been calling for a review for some time so if a review is announced, it

is very welcome news. And very refreshing that actually, your

report has shown some of the problems are with the testing regime

because as the film rightly pointed out, the tests are done on perfect

insulation and we know that actually, the insulation is not

perfectly encapsulated all the time and the test does not include

windows or penetrations in the cladding and we would like to see a

more realistic test, assuming we get a building regulations review as

soon as we can. Isn't the problem that you have raised these issues

time and time again and does not seem to have been much action? Why

do you think that was? I think there has been a real difficulty. The Fire

and Rescue Service have been so successful in reducing the number of

fire deaths and injuries over the last decade that I think there was a

genuine belief by ministers and others that the fire problem had

gone away. In reality, we knew there were more combustible materials

being introduced to the building process and that required... It was

likely to require a different fire dynamic and that is what we were

concerned about and that is why we are asking for building regulations

reviews. You say that more combustible materials were being

added to the cladding. Why? It is not just cladding, it is throughout

the building process. There are different insulation requirements

that have been introduced over recent years and the easy option is

to be putting in the lighter, more combustible materials. The problem

stems from a term called limited, stability, in reality we have

combustible and noncombustible and it should be that simple, when you

add terms like Limited, stability, it adds a grey area of

interpretation and as a report said, that is where problems can occur and

that has been a real concern. For high occupancies, noncombustible

materials must be the absolute priority. The question I asked Chris

before we saw that film was about the issue of speed. People are

living in blocks with this type of material in them across the country.

How quickly can a review of this type, with such congregated

regulations, changing those regulations, how quickly and with

what speed than any review take place and can changes be put in

place so people are safer? Well, building regulations offer new build

and refurbishment and we are where we are the building environment as

it stands. There is a safety case and the government are doing all

they can to understand how large this problem is with social housing.

And the tests they have commissioned will go some way to solving that

problem the issue we have got is, what are the problem insulation is

and how to be fully encapsulated them so they do not cause any

problem? As the tests have shown, fully encapsulated insulation can

perform very well in a test. I am assuming that these things could

take years to study and analyse. Is that the sort of time frame?

Typically, and I sat on a number of different reviews over the last

couple of decades, it normally takes 18 months to around two years for a

review and we would be very keen to urge the government to start that

review immediately and things can be short cut quickly, tests can be

commissioned, it depends on the resources the government are

prepared to throw at us. And also, to be honest, what evidence we can

make available. It is sometimes difficult to get ahold of government

statistics which can make a big difference to make the changes that

are required. It's about trying to read gain trust

and faith in the regulations which have been so damaged by the events

one month ago. Without a doubt. We have been calling for the Government

to review the basis of those regulations. At the moment they are

life safety regulations, and quite likely serve. We don't have any

building section within it. We had the local building act, which gave

an element of building protection and resilience to the built

environment. That was repealed under the last government. And so those

types of protections, which are common throughout the world, just

don't exist in UK Government building regulations any more.

Jonathan O'Neil, thank you very much for joining us.

We did ask the Government for an interview, but they told us that

nobody was available. Today, it wasn't just Brexit

and the publication of that excitingly titled European Union

(Withdrawal) Bill that was the centre of attention -

what we used to know The Brexit effect on the economy

also hoved into view as the Office for Budget Responsibility -

the OBR, the Government's official economic watchdog -

published its first ever And it certainly said

there were a few - high levels of debt,

a continuing deficit, an economy now less able to deal

with shocks than it was before Is this really the time

to be ending austerity? The OBR called for public

finance "prudence", and I asked John McDonnell,

Labour's Shadow Chancellor, if borrowing more now would really

make for a strong and stable economy, and whether being prepared

to vote against the Brexit Bill was really an attempt to derail

the whole process. If you look at the underlying

references that are coming from the OBR, it's about seven years of

austerity. It's about productivity stagnating from nearly a decade. Low

wages, wages falling back as well. Business investment growth falling

back. There's a sort of cocktail of desperate elements within the

economy now. That puts the economy at risk. One thing within the OBR

report which was interesting, they touch on the Grenfell fire. Do you

think there is going to be a cost attached to putting in proper

policies that can deal with things, the outcome of things like that?

From what we so -- from what we have heard so far, it could be

significant and we have to recognise that. The overall issue, how do we

get our housing programme back in line? Robert Chote suggested, some

would say, from his OBR report, but actually the prudent management of

the public finances, austerity, if you'd like, is actually a good thing

to do when you have very high levels of debt. Use till have a deficit all

of these years after the financial crisis -- you still have a deficit.

Actually it is time to fix the roof while the sun is shining. We are a

whirlwind at the moment. Lack of investment, austerity measures,

which have largely hit people who need the money, who would spend and

help grow, and consumer debt increasing. It is just pure

management. Can we move on to the issue of Brexit? We have had the

publication of the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill, as it is now

called. You have immediately come so too will not support it. Is there a

danger for you that the public who voted to leave the European Union

will look at Parliament on the, you're simply blocking the public

will? The public is expecting us to take back control to Europe and then

give it to the executive, to the government. By Henry VIII powers. Is

that your big issues? If you hand to the executive, we have taken control

from Europe and given it to the Government and there is no

parliamentary discussion or control, that can't be right. We are saying

that we need a different type of Bill. I hope the Government will

hope us and a lot of this bill. We can't at the moment because it is so

undemocratic. I think they should withdraw this and bring something

forward. If not, we'll amend it as best we can. What is more important

to you, Mr McDonnell, getting rid of the Prime Minister or getting out of

the European Union? Look, the most important thing for me is about the

future of the country. At the moment, the problem that we've got

is that the future of our country is being held back because we have a

weak or no Government in power at the moment. They are in office, but

not in power. You can see my point that by frustrating the Brexit...

Oh, no, we are not... Theresa May has to resign and you get the

election that you want. Theresa May's Dever registration is more

important. You are wrong, missing type to get. The most important

thing for us is the good governance of this country so quite we have had

an election, a referendum. And you lot down here in Westminster cannot

get anything done. We have said time and time again that on the number of

issues we can cooperate but we cannot support what they are doing

at the moment because it is undermining our economy and ability

to get this new relationship with Europe that we need. You're not

going to get those kind of concessions, so Brexit will not

happen with any speed whatsoever. I think this Government is falling

apart rapidly on the Conservative Party is splitting about five

different ways. On that basis, the only responsible thing for them to

do in the interest of the country is to stand aside and let some deals

form a government. You support being out of the Single Market when we

leave the EU. We want tariff free access to the market itself and we

want to negotiate that, we think we can. You agree with Kier Starmer

when he says that leaving your item is not a good idea, the European

Union's nuclear safety agency would not be a good idea for the UK. There

is a whole series of bodies like that that we've got to maintain

either a membership or a relationship of. What people may not

understand is that the Article 50 process says, we would leave those

agencies. You backed by Article 50 treble. So surely you are changing

your mind between triggering Article 50 and think, actually, we want to

stay in bits of it. There is a whole series of consequences that we need

to examine. That includes these individual agencies, and there are

dozens of them that we have to go through. It might well be those

individual agencies that we maintain a relationship of some sort or

maintain a membership of. That would be part of the negotiations. Why did

you vote for Article 51 and made it clear that we should be leaving

Euratom. It started the negotiations of... That was more important? It

is, we need some form of stability with these relationships because it

will give stability to our economy. As the OBR pointed out today, like

stability will have a long-term impact on our economy. Doesn't it

seem to the public that you are trying to unravel Brexit? Not at

all. We have accepted the outcome of the referendum and we are leaving

the European Union. Ms McDonnell, thank you. John McDonnell there.

What do Labour's tactics, mean for its chances of progress?

Our Political Editor, Nick Watt, is here.

Mix, what exactly are Her Majesty is opposition up to, do you think? At

what level they are playing a game that is intended to an seat Theresa

May, but they would also say that they are not trying to block Brexit

but they are trying to fashion a different sort of Brexit. But what

is interesting about that Labour announcement is that they are

prepared to vote against this Bill at its second reading in September

and major changes are introduced, that has emboldened the so-called

soft Brexit Conservatives. They now believe that they have the numbers

in Parliament to make very serious amendments to the bill when it is

considered at committee stage in the autumn. And on top of that, they

believe that they can exploit rule number one of the Government Chief

Whip Gavin Williams, and that is, never lose a vote in the House of

Commons. And what they think is that the mere prospect of defeat in

Parliament will persuade the Government behind the scenes to

soften its stance in a number of areas. For example, they think the

transitional phase after the UK immediately leaves EU, maybe we will

get a softening there. And in the future relationship, the Single

Market with the customs union and the European Court of Justice, maybe

there will be a softening in those areas. Does this really mean, I

mean, that is interesting from the Remain's point of view, does it mean

the Government's position is even week -- we get to the point that

they cannot get through exit legislation? They are potentially

weak. It takes just seven Conservative MPs to vote against the

Government. If all the opposition parties vote one way, then the

Government will be defeated. Also, the Scottish and Welsh Government

said today that they are prepared to block this legislation, although it

is important to say that it is just by convention, they do not have a

legal actual power of veto. But the Government believe it has cards to

play. To the soft Brexit Tories, you may think that Jeremy Corbyn is a

friend on this but he is a Ben Wright Eurosceptic who is involved

in a simple power play to bring down Theresa May. Do you really want to

be part of that? Add to the Labour Party, ministers are saying, with

your tactics you may get a nice reception on those areas, remain

areas that voted in Labour MPs, but don't forget those traditional

Labour areas that voted Lees. Nick, thank you.

Liu Xiaobo - Chinese dissident and Nobel Peace Prize winner -

In his life, the authorities tried to muzzle him.

He was serving an 11-year prison term - one of many

since the Tiananmen Square protests in 1989.

In his death, leaders, friends, writers around the world,

One of them is a Chinese writer Diane Wei Liang,

Welcome, thank you for joining us. Take us back, Diane, if you can, to

the time of Tiananmen Square and the sort of figure that Liu was for you?

Well, I knew Liu Xiaobo before Tiananmen through his writing. He is

a poet, and he's written about reflections, on China and the

Chinese system. And at Tiananmen, the students were there since May of

that year. And Liu Xiaobo came later and joint in the protests. At that

time, we did not understand his wisdom. On the June the 4th, when it

was clear the government was going to crack down on the Tiananmen

protesters. The talk was, as you can understand, being very young, was to

be ready to die for the country. And it was to the credit of Liu Xiaobo

and the others, older, wiser individuals, that he negotiated a

safe passage for students to leave Tiananmen Square on June before. So,

for many protesters -- June the 4th. We owe our lives to Liu Xiaobo.

Goodness, how many people, lives do you think could have been saved by

his wife council, I assume is how you felt it? Absolutely thousands --

his wise counsel. There were thousands of protesters who still

remained in Tiananmen Square. And Liu Xiaobo and others negotiated

safe passage. And most importantly, convinced the students to withdraw

from Tiananmen Square. How do you think he was treated in his time in

China? Obviously famous around the world, but actually in China, maybe

for very obvious reasons, not as well-known. How did the Chinese

authorities deal with him, post-Tiananmen Square? After

Tiananmen, for a period, he was allowed to write, and although his

job was taken away, he lost his lectureship at Beijing University,

he kept on writing. And he -- his books, unfortunately, were banned in

China. And most Chinese do not know who he was. In a way, his impact in

China was minimum. But his writing, in some ways, I think it should be

one of his legacy is that they have been published. In the West, they

are published. In the Chinese language in Taiwan. And they

summarise his views of nonviolence, of reflection. Liu Xiaobo was a soft

speaking intellectual. His work was very much on reflection. And his

slogans, titles of books, include, We Have No Enemies And We Do Not

Have Hatred Will Stop and he has very much call for a rethink of what

Chinese society should be and what can be. Do you think that receiving

the Nobel Peace Prize was something which then protected him against the

authorities? I mean, how would something like that be viewed by the

Chinese authorities? Many people who grew up in China

during the Communist time, winning the Nobel Prize was the time that

sealed his fate. Winning the prize petted him as an individual against

the state and the state is always all-powerful. That is the struggle

Liu Xiaobo had very little chance of winning. The Chinese state got more

aggressive against dissidents at the moment, is there a record getting

worse? For the past 30 years, the Chinese state is extremely powerful

and for individuals like Liu Xiaobo, whose work in writing books and

criticisms and signing a petition, called chapter 08, signed by a few

thousand people and was never published and the crackdown is very

heavy-handed and this is something that always seems to me to be

incompetent civil that the state would want to treat an individual as

such. But this is what marks China is a different system, they do not

tolerate dissident voices. Thank you very much for coming on tonight.

It's the world's biggest oil company, and it could be

SaudiArmaco is Saudi Arabia's national oil company,

and it could be coming to London in what would be the biggest

But, controversially, we might need to change our

regulations here to make such a lucrative deal possible.

Our Business Editor, Helen Thomas, is here.

Helen, this is a pretty heady mix of high finance and politics -

It might not be immediately obvious to viewers why this is important.

Tell us why this matters. This is the crown jewel of Saudi Arabia,

generating 70% of government revenues and it is operated

basically as an arm of the state, it has built schools, hospitals, sports

arenas, very unusual, it is also enormous, if they get the valuation

we are talking about, it would be around 2.5 times the size of Apple.

London Stock Exchange is competing with New York to be the main

locations for this listing and today the market regulators proposed rule

changes that as it just so happens, would be very helpful if you were a

large government-controlled company looking at London. Given Brexit and

that we striking out for this new world, you feel that London might be

looking at loosening regulations to make her seem more attractive? That

we're going to become the Singapore of Europe? What the regulator said

today is they want to create this new category of listing, a premium

listing but without all of the rules that used to be required. For a

company like Saudi Aramco, you can get this premium prestige badge but

without all of the rules attached and remember, earlier this year

Theresa May did go to Saudi Arabia as part of London's lobbying efforts

but I will give you both sides of the argument. Some would say that

London is a very global market, it is in our interests to attract big,

interesting companies. This would be lucrative, lots of fees on offer and

investors don't have to buy the shares, they can look and see what

the company says and make their own decision. But there is this worry

that we have seen this movie before, London had a string of scandals

involving foreign owned companies and there is a feeling among some

investors that it is just bad practice to tweak the rules so

obviously to suit one particular company that it just sends the wrong

message about how London operates. Fantastic, thank you very much. We

will be watching how that develops. "He was often gone

but never forgotten". You may not remember Peter Perrett -

lead singer of 70s rock band The Only Ones and writer of what's

been described as arguably the greatest rock single ever

recorded, and there's much It was thought he'd chosen drugs

over everything else - but now he's back with his first

solo album, and to critical acclaim. So, how did he resurrect

himself and his career? Our Culture Editor Stephen Smith

went to meet him for his first TV Is this your stage gear,

by the way, or do you... Umm, It's what I got

up in, you know. I suppose some people

will be amazed to see you. You know, I surprised myself

by actually returning Accompanied by his sons,

Peter Perrett is back, with perhaps the most unexpected

solo album of the year. It has the political bite and dark

sardonic humour that his patient # Just like everybody else I'm

in love with Kim Kardashian. # She's taking over from JLo

as my number one #. If it provokes thought,

then that's an added bonus. But really I just wanted

to make people laugh. Because laughter is extremely

therapeutic, especially in times Many rock fans adore Perrett

for Another Girl, Another Planet, which he wrote and performed

in the 70s with his then It's been covered

by many other acts. To some, it's the best

rock song ever. # I could kill, but I

don't care about it. # And stand up straight

and tall and tell about it. # I think I'm on another

world with you. You know, it's been described

as an adrenaline rush And, yeah, it's probably the most

difficult song for me to perform, which is unfortunate,

because it's like my most # I think I'm on another

world with you. You know, there's three

minutes of classic rock music, and I'm thinking,

you know, it's perfect. I don't think it's the best

song I've ever written, but it's probably the best record

I've ever made. In an admittedly crowded field,

Perrett has been noticeable among rock musicians as a recluse

and user of drugs. Apart from brief forays

into recording and performing, he's gone missing for much

of the last four decades. Where have you been,

your fans will want to know. And what have you been doing

in the years when we haven't I suppose it was like

spiritual research, You know, there's certain

security and comfort. One fairly lurid account described

you as being sequestered in a crumbling Gothic mansion

in Forest Hill. And there was a certain amount

of drug dealing going on there? You know, you live

in the black economy. But I guess it wasn't

without cost, and you would know I believe you missed

both your parents' funerals. Obviously it's not good to look

back and regret things, but obviously you can't help

thinking about things. But all you can do is learn

from that and appreciate the people And try to give them

as much love as you can. Let's talk about the vagaries

of the rock life. One minute you're flying

to Rio on Concorde. Sometime later you're saying

that your publishing rights You weren't earning so much

from publishing that I'm not allowed to talk

about benefits, you know, with this government,

it's dangerous territory. Because that's the worst thing,

when they try and stop I was on benefits, and we did

the Jools Holland show in 2008. And I tried to explain that just

doing the Jools Holland Show, you know, because we were unsigned

at the time, they actually paid But you don't actually

make any money. Most people just go on there

because they want to be on the Jools Holland Show,

because it's the only show. They didn't believe me,

so there's this whole investigation. And it's a stressful thing,

you know, I really identify with poor people, because they know

what it's like to be part # No one can love me

the way that you can. Perrett's new record includes this

love song to his wife, Xena, He's been clean and sober

for eight years now. Taking things to the extreme,

where there was an imminent possibility of the end

of our existence. Especially my wife, who became

a lot more damaged by it, you know, by the consumption,

than I was. I realised that we owed it

to the people that cared about us do, you know,

have one last attempt. # If I lived my whole life

again I'd choose you. You know, I feel like a total

newcomer, so it's all new to me. And I'm enjoying it even more

than I did in the 70s, because I'm taking it all in,

there's no distractions. You know, fully focused on just

enjoying that moment, Before we go, the Prime Minister

revealed today in an interview with the BBC's Emma Barnett

that she cried when she saw the exit Of course, the shedding of tears

is not a new political phenomenon. Over the years, whether

from personal grief, reversals of fortune or moments

of national celebration, many # Too many teardrops

for one heart to be crying. I just don't want to

see us fall backwards. # You're way on top

now since you left me. # You're always laughing

way down at me. We've got some rain on the way

tonight across northern areas