Grenfell Tower: One Month On Newsnight


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Grenfell Tower: One Month On

Four weeks after Grenfell, Newsnight finds the first evidence of cyanide poisoning among survivors. Plus why do so many not believe the official number of dead?


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Tonight, four weeks after Grenfell burned, Newsnight has established

:00:00.:00:00.

the first evidence of cyanide poisoning amongst

:00:07.:00:09.

We hear new testimony of a family's escape

:00:10.:00:14.

And the agony of losing their unborn child.

:00:15.:00:20.

As it settled on my body, obviously everything goes to the baby.

:00:21.:00:28.

The amount that he received, it was obviously enough

:00:29.:00:32.

Nazreen Aklani lost her mother and her aunt in the fire,

:00:33.:00:40.

both are missing and presumed to have died.

:00:41.:00:43.

Four weeks on - has anyone helped her get the answers that she seeks?

:00:44.:00:50.

And why are survivors so unwilling to believe

:00:51.:00:53.

what the authorities tell them - especially about the

:00:54.:00:55.

I was speaking to a friend of mine last week and they said that he's

:00:56.:01:02.

We go in search of evidence that the official death count

:01:03.:01:10.

is wrong and ask why so many doubt it.

:01:11.:01:12.

I said, we've got social media out here.

:01:13.:01:15.

We'll ask two London politicians if it's possible to end

:01:16.:01:22.

Four weeks after the inferno, the charred carcass

:01:23.:01:36.

of Grenfell Tower looms over North Kensington like

:01:37.:01:39.

a malevolent machine, casting still darkening shadows over

:01:40.:01:42.

But as the political debates continue and the parameters

:01:43.:01:48.

of the official enquiry are slowly established, there is perhaps

:01:49.:01:52.

a danger of losing sight of the myriad human

:01:53.:01:55.

For example, the youngest victim of the fire, who was yet to be born.

:01:56.:02:03.

Andreia Gomes was seven months pregnant and had already

:02:04.:02:06.

named her unborn son-to-be Logan when, with her husband

:02:07.:02:09.

and their two daughters, she escaped from the 21st floor

:02:10.:02:12.

The baby growing inside her did not survive.

:02:13.:02:18.

And tonight, we learn that Andreia and her husband

:02:19.:02:21.

Marcio's eldest child, the 12 year old Luana,

:02:22.:02:25.

received a diagnosis of cyanide poisoning -

:02:26.:02:27.

the first to be recorded among the survivors.

:02:28.:02:31.

They have been telling their story for the first time

:02:32.:02:33.

A warning - some people may find it upsetting.

:02:34.:02:39.

We didn't use soft words, we didn't say

:02:40.:02:41.

that her baby brother was

:02:42.:02:46.

sleeping with the angels, sleeping as everybody does every night.

:02:47.:02:51.

We said Logan died and these are the reasons Logan died.

:02:52.:02:56.

The Gomes family lived on the 21st floor of Grenfell

:02:57.:02:58.

Next month they should have been celebrating the birth of their

:02:59.:03:02.

son, anticipated with much excitement by his older sisters.

:03:03.:03:08.

We were making plans, he can sleep with me,

:03:09.:03:11.

floor and I'm going to play with him, they were very excited and we'd

:03:12.:03:19.

Instead, their home is gone and their son,

:03:20.:03:26.

who they had already named Logan, was delivered stillborn by Caesarean

:03:27.:03:33.

section as his mother and sisters lay in induced comas in hospital.

:03:34.:03:38.

I knew something was wrong straightaway when they took the

:03:39.:03:40.

mother as a priority, so I broke down.

:03:41.:03:43.

And then later on they said that the baby had passed

:03:44.:03:53.

They can't say 100%, but they said that the heart couldn't cope

:03:54.:04:04.

with the lack of oxygen, the baby didn't get,

:04:05.:04:10.

so they have done a full autopsy including toxins to see

:04:11.:04:13.

exactly what caused the baby's death.

:04:14.:04:18.

They said that they believed the poison went in and settled on my

:04:19.:04:25.

body, and everything goes to the baby.

:04:26.:04:37.

Especially, seven months is when the lungs of the baby starts to

:04:38.:04:40.

The amount that he received, it was obviously enough to

:04:41.:04:43.

There has been speculation in the four weeks since

:04:44.:04:53.

the fire about what toxins may have been released as the building

:04:54.:04:56.

The family allowed Newsnight to film their discharge papers from

:04:57.:05:00.

Their 12-year-old daughter's diagnosis

:05:01.:05:03.

Her mother and sister were also treated

:05:04.:05:08.

This is the first confirmation of a cyanide

:05:09.:05:16.

poisoning diagnosis as a result of the Grenfell fire.

:05:17.:05:18.

It is believed to be from the insulation.

:05:19.:05:22.

I imagine it would be from the plastics that

:05:23.:05:30.

were melted and burning, but the smoke was certainly,

:05:31.:05:32.

you know, so intense, as soon as you got a mouthful, you

:05:33.:05:40.

were gagging, you were constantly gagging on the way down.

:05:41.:05:45.

I can't imagine what my daughters were going

:05:46.:05:53.

through at the time and I'm sure you were gagging as well.

:05:54.:05:56.

You were always having the gag reflex, it was that

:05:57.:05:59.

This was the family's flat where they sheltered, unable to

:06:00.:06:02.

They had been advised that firefighters would rescue them but

:06:03.:06:07.

two hours and up to five emergency calls later, just before 4am,

:06:08.:06:11.

The curtains were on fire, the Moses basket was

:06:12.:06:21.

on fire, that side of the window was on fire.

:06:22.:06:25.

I looked at the window and thought it must have cracked.

:06:26.:06:27.

Everything was fine so I knew that the fire came in between the

:06:28.:06:34.

There were a lot of gaps because of the insulation they

:06:35.:06:46.

The only thing I could do was literally grab the door,

:06:47.:06:49.

and then I looked and said we have to go now,

:06:50.:06:52.

there's no turning back, we have to try.

:06:53.:06:54.

I was holding the rail and I kept shouting, keep going,

:06:55.:06:58.

keep going downstairs, try and give them as

:06:59.:06:59.

At one point my daughter replied to me

:07:00.:07:04.

I realised she must have let go of the rail.

:07:05.:07:24.

I turned round, stopped, I turned around and said

:07:25.:07:31.

I'm waiting for you, follow my voice, I kept shouting to them.

:07:32.:07:36.

I kept climbing the stairs and she said, I can't, I can't, and she

:07:37.:07:40.

The smoke was so heavy, you couldn't see anything

:07:41.:07:46.

that was there, so I was shouting to them, waiting.

:07:47.:07:52.

Thankfully at that moment I looked down and there was a

:07:53.:07:55.

light coming up and it was a fireman.

:07:56.:07:58.

They were rescued but the delay on the staircase meant that he

:07:59.:08:09.

had lost Andreia and their younger daughter.

:08:10.:08:11.

I said I needed to go back and see where my wife is and

:08:12.:08:17.

the policeman said, I'm not promising anything

:08:18.:08:18.

I relaxed a bit at that point and then the other one

:08:19.:08:23.

said, is your daughter's name, Megan?

:08:24.:08:27.

I said I was good because they had got out.

:08:28.:08:29.

An ambulance took the family to hospital where the

:08:30.:08:33.

Did you know immediately that you had lost your son? Or did you have

:08:34.:08:45.

to tell Andreia? Before she got brought out of

:08:46.:08:48.

the coma, moving a little bit, very I was talking to her and the first

:08:49.:08:56.

thing she did was to try and put her hand on her stomach

:08:57.:09:04.

and said, I'm sorry. The family have nothing

:09:05.:09:09.

but praise for the support they've received from the NHS,

:09:10.:09:14.

firefighters and friends. As for those who decided

:09:15.:09:16.

to cut costs on I'm very angry with

:09:17.:09:18.

them because it could That's where the anger

:09:19.:09:21.

really stems from. Yes, it was an accident,

:09:22.:09:25.

I'm sure, but it It shouldn't have

:09:26.:09:28.

happened like this. The residents never wanted

:09:29.:09:33.

the cladding in the first place. When you go ahead

:09:34.:09:37.

knowing that something could happen and they ignored that,

:09:38.:09:44.

this is me, personally, I feel that I don't know if is

:09:45.:09:48.

the right word, but you just killed so many people

:09:49.:10:00.

and you just killed my son. In a normal situation

:10:01.:10:06.

I could have gone out, he was seven months, he

:10:07.:10:09.

could have survived. But because of their

:10:10.:10:14.

conditions, he... Andreia and Marcio Gomes

:10:15.:10:23.

talking to Katie Razzall It is worth stressing that we do not

:10:24.:10:41.

know where the cyanide came from, whether it was plastics from inside

:10:42.:10:43.

the building or the insulation. Sadly, neither the Government

:10:44.:10:45.

nor council were able Her mother Sakineh

:10:46.:10:47.

lived on the 18th floor On the night of the tragedy

:10:48.:10:53.

she was being visited by her sister, Nazreen's aunt Fatimeh,

:10:54.:10:58.

and both women described the unfolding horror

:10:59.:11:02.

on the telephone to family members Presumed but not yet confirmed dead,

:11:03.:11:04.

the uncertainty surrounding their situation is also

:11:05.:11:10.

being endured by many other grieving families and their continuing pain

:11:11.:11:15.

is exacerbated by a lingering suspicion that the authorities

:11:16.:11:17.

are still being less I am so sorry for your loss and

:11:18.:11:33.

thank you for joining us. One would presume that four weeks after the

:11:34.:11:37.

tragedy, you had find out rather more than what you have about what

:11:38.:11:42.

happened to her mother and your aunt, is that the case? We know more

:11:43.:11:49.

in terms of meeting other victims and we have approached them, we have

:11:50.:11:56.

found things out for ourselves and... No, it has taken so long for

:11:57.:12:03.

the numbers to reach 80. The next day the numbers of dead were nine.

:12:04.:12:09.

We always knew it was more and we still know it is more, that is no

:12:10.:12:14.

information for us. It is things that we assumed. You mentioned

:12:15.:12:20.

dealing chiefly with other survivors and grieving families, what lines of

:12:21.:12:24.

communication do you have with what you describe as the authorities? We

:12:25.:12:30.

have very little communication, we have been given a key worker and we

:12:31.:12:35.

have had to run around so much. We were given a family liaison officer

:12:36.:12:40.

by the police quite quickly. And through them we were promised to

:12:41.:12:46.

have a key worker which puts us in touch with the council and they are

:12:47.:12:51.

supposed to help us, introduce us to things that are available and

:12:52.:12:54.

everything. And it took so long to have one of those in place. We

:12:55.:13:01.

literally had to chase the officers to be able to find out who that

:13:02.:13:09.

actually is and once in place, a number of phone calls we have had to

:13:10.:13:14.

make chasing her up, I would rather have called the places myself and

:13:15.:13:19.

have everything done. We find out through other means and had to put

:13:20.:13:23.

it to her, there has not been much communication. What is it you are

:13:24.:13:27.

mostly trying to establish that you have been unable to? One of the main

:13:28.:13:33.

things we have been trying to do and I know my brother sorted out the

:13:34.:13:39.

Housing for my disabled brother and we have been trying to sort that

:13:40.:13:43.

provisionally ourselves because there was no key worker and when she

:13:44.:13:47.

came in she took over and did nothing with it and we had to ring

:13:48.:13:52.

her and remind her, the MP as short as this would get done. She called

:13:53.:13:58.

us one week later to say the council has refused everything and when we

:13:59.:14:01.

asked for her to put us in touch with the manager that took that

:14:02.:14:04.

decision, she spoke to my brother, I believe today or yesterday, to say

:14:05.:14:09.

the manager is going on annual leave and she left it as that without

:14:10.:14:13.

telling us who else would be in charge. Which I find quite shocking,

:14:14.:14:20.

so many people traumatised and going through this tragedy, not just

:14:21.:14:23.

myself but everybody, and the managers and the council say that it

:14:24.:14:28.

is OK to continue with annual leave. You say not yourself but you still

:14:29.:14:33.

do not know for sure what happened to your mother? No. My brother was

:14:34.:14:40.

on the phone to them, we know they went to the 23rd floor and we know

:14:41.:14:46.

they died there because... Do you understand by the authorities have

:14:47.:14:52.

been unable to definitively confirm that to you? Yes, they let them burn

:14:53.:15:00.

for too long. You know... What is more horrendous than getting burned

:15:01.:15:05.

alive? You ask yourself, is there anything worse? I am afraid there

:15:06.:15:11.

is... Having no remains and yes, it has taken so long because they

:15:12.:15:15.

failed to put out the fire when they should have. When I went to that

:15:16.:15:21.

site in the morning, we were there all day, there was still fire inside

:15:22.:15:26.

the building, the next day, 24 hours later. And because of that, yes, it

:15:27.:15:30.

is hard for them to tell us what has happened to my mother and my auntie

:15:31.:15:34.

because they have been so burned that the coroner defines them as

:15:35.:15:40.

calcified, there was no organic matter in the bones for them to be

:15:41.:15:44.

DNA tested. And I do not know who took the decision to decide that

:15:45.:15:52.

they did not need to fight the fire any more. I do not know why somebody

:15:53.:15:57.

who was responsible for that far decided it was OK to stop fighting

:15:58.:16:00.

it and let everything else burn. Because... That decision has cost us

:16:01.:16:08.

the remains of our family. That we could have had. And I see that as a

:16:09.:16:13.

criminal offence. That should be investigated.

:16:14.:16:19.

You have no remains to bury. We have no remains, since the first day, we

:16:20.:16:29.

told our family liaison officer that we want to have a video of the

:16:30.:16:35.

coroner's search. They said, we think this is part of their work

:16:36.:16:42.

anyway. The victims' meeting at Olympia, we were told there was no

:16:43.:16:47.

video. We have taken pictures. Commander Cundy said yes, we will

:16:48.:16:51.

get these pictures out to the families because we are very keen on

:16:52.:16:57.

them, it is our right. Just like everything else, it was a waste of

:16:58.:17:02.

time, time we could have spent grieving. We weren't given the

:17:03.:17:07.

pictures as they promised, they said they would get them to us

:17:08.:17:12.

immediately. We have been denied everything. I have no idea what's

:17:13.:17:17.

out there. For all my no, they could be in one piece. I should stress

:17:18.:17:22.

that there is an open invitation for the Council or central government to

:17:23.:17:26.

address many of the questions that are continuing to be thrown up by

:17:27.:17:29.

this awful, all full tragedy. Thank you for joining us.

:17:30.:17:32.

I spent several hours at the scene today and almost

:17:33.:17:35.

everyone I spoke to, from the local MP to the manager

:17:36.:17:40.

of the Maxilla social club that sits in Grenfell's shadow,

:17:41.:17:44.

told me that the official response to the tragedy remains inadequate

:17:45.:17:46.

It is perhaps unsurprising that this perceived absence of accountability

:17:47.:17:52.

and authority has fostered an environment in which suspicion

:17:53.:17:56.

and mistrust have been allowed to fester.

:17:57.:18:00.

Tonight - a vigil for those that died took place at the tower.

:18:01.:18:05.

From the death toll itself, which currently officially stands

:18:06.:18:12.

at 80, to the efforts to rehouse survivors, many report a deep

:18:13.:18:15.

And it is a distrust which could ultimately hamper any

:18:16.:18:19.

inquiry that requires the cooperation of a community

:18:20.:18:21.

profoundly sceptical about almost everything they are being told.

:18:22.:18:25.

So many questions about Grenfell hang in the air.

:18:26.:18:42.

The definitive answers are many months away.

:18:43.:18:49.

The public inquiry hasn't even decided

:18:50.:18:51.

its terms of reference yet, which questions it will investigate.

:18:52.:18:54.

I was here covering the fire on the day

:18:55.:18:56.

and have followed the story ever since.

:18:57.:18:58.

And one thing that has made Grenfell seem very different to me,

:18:59.:19:01.

feel different from a lot of other similar disasters is how widespread

:19:02.:19:07.

and how strong is the view that the authorities are lying to us

:19:08.:19:10.

At the heart of this view is the question of how

:19:11.:19:14.

That number is established by the police.

:19:15.:19:18.

But is it really more than that, and if so,

:19:19.:19:23.

are the police, the government, the Fire Service and the media all

:19:24.:19:29.

colluding in a cover-up to downplay this disaster's true death toll?

:19:30.:19:31.

If you're not going to report the right numbers, there's no

:19:32.:19:38.

There's no point you being here because all

:19:39.:19:42.

I and many of my colleagues have had encounters like this one.

:19:43.:19:47.

People throwing their children out of the

:19:48.:19:51.

You can see first hand there's more than 58 missing posters

:19:52.:19:57.

The media, seen as in collusion with the

:19:58.:20:02.

powerful who want to suppress the truth.

:20:03.:20:05.

We've got social media, we've got social media out here, we don't

:20:06.:20:08.

Rumours become hardened into fact, despite

:20:09.:20:17.

I've got a friend who works for the fire brigade here.

:20:18.:20:24.

Yesterday on the phone he said they found about 42

:20:25.:20:27.

It's only because we know him, he's a fireman,

:20:28.:20:38.

This Facebook video that alleges that 42 bodies were

:20:39.:20:46.

found in one flat has been seen by more people than the nightly

:20:47.:20:50.

audience for BBC and ITV's main bulletins put

:20:51.:20:52.

A claim that then finds its way into the mouth of a

:20:53.:20:56.

The 79 figure that has stood for a week does not accord

:20:57.:21:01.

with those who lived down there and say

:21:02.:21:03.

that the survivors, there is a

:21:04.:21:05.

In one flat alone, people say there were up to 40 people gathered,

:21:06.:21:11.

because they had gathered there, it was Ramadan.

:21:12.:21:21.

In the cold shadow of Grenfell Tower I met Virginia Sang.

:21:22.:21:27.

She lives in one of the three blocks of maisonettes that radiate

:21:28.:21:30.

She has lived there since she was a child.

:21:31.:21:33.

The official figure is 80 at the moment, dead or missing.

:21:34.:21:36.

I was told Sunday after the fire it was 200 and

:21:37.:21:48.

Right, and that rings true to you, it is more

:21:49.:21:55.

Yeah but I was speaking to a friend who said he has been told

:21:56.:21:59.

Well, we don't know, I'm praying it's not.

:22:00.:22:03.

We don't think they new how many people lived in the tower, because

:22:04.:22:11.

the tower was very overcrowded, so they don't have the correct number

:22:12.:22:16.

for how many people was living there.

:22:17.:22:20.

Do you think there were many people who weren't on the books?

:22:21.:22:23.

But despite investigating these claims, Newsnight has so far found

:22:24.:22:33.

no evidence that such large numbers were in the tower.

:22:34.:22:35.

To calculate the total number in Grenfell that night

:22:36.:22:40.

we need to know the number of people who escaped.

:22:41.:22:43.

The police say it was 255 and add the number of missing

:22:44.:22:46.

The police say the number is 80, implying a total of 335

:22:47.:22:52.

All the people you can see on these posters

:22:53.:23:03.

are accounted for in some way, they are either

:23:04.:23:05.

officially confirmed as

:23:06.:23:07.

So if there were many other people, dozens, even hundreds of other

:23:08.:23:16.

victims of the Grenfell fire, where is the evidence, where are the

:23:17.:23:19.

people looking for them, where are the neighbours, the friends and

:23:20.:23:22.

Unless they were so anonymous that nobody knew they were

:23:23.:23:26.

As for the argument that 100 or more undocumented

:23:27.:23:34.

migrants were living in the tower unknown

:23:35.:23:35.

to the authorities, the

:23:36.:23:37.

police have detailed lists for who was living

:23:38.:23:40.

the block, so where were these extra people supposedly living?

:23:41.:23:46.

Official figures from the police are that 80

:23:47.:23:48.

18 are from the 106 flats where the police have

:23:49.:23:56.

The remaining 62 are from 23 higher flats where the police have been

:23:57.:24:07.

The police have said they have not discovered a flat containing 42

:24:08.:24:11.

Identifying, even numbering victims is a huge and slow

:24:12.:24:16.

30 years ago, 31 people were killed in a fire at King's

:24:17.:24:20.

Cross Station and it took months to identify some of the victims.

:24:21.:24:23.

It is a grisly truth that in a high temperature,

:24:24.:24:26.

long burning fire like Grenfell, very little human evidence

:24:27.:24:29.

The upper floors of Grenfell became effectively a crematorium, the

:24:30.:24:39.

temperature must have been 2000 Celsius.

:24:40.:24:43.

A crematorium is a roundabout 1600 Celsius so what

:24:44.:24:45.

would be left is not an identifiable body but fragments of bone and ash

:24:46.:24:53.

To identify a body we need not just the teeth and

:24:54.:24:57.

get DNA from that body, we need to have something to compare it with

:24:58.:25:00.

Independent groups and organisations try

:25:01.:25:02.

to put together lists of the

:25:03.:25:10.

dead and missing have not identified the scores or hundreds of missing

:25:11.:25:13.

victims that some believe died in the blaze.

:25:14.:25:15.

Without having access to the police's data, the BBC has

:25:16.:25:17.

managed to identify 72 of the 80 people

:25:18.:25:20.

An unchecked crowd sourced database has come up with 83 names.

:25:21.:25:25.

We have completely failed to find any evidence to support the idea

:25:26.:25:30.

that a real number of casualties from the Grenfell fire is

:25:31.:25:33.

significantly different from the numbers that the police

:25:34.:25:35.

That leads to a rather obvious question.

:25:36.:25:38.

Why are so many so determined to believe that the

:25:39.:25:41.

One factor is certainly the lack of trust in any of the institutions

:25:42.:25:50.

We know, for example, that Grenfell residents tried to raise fire

:25:51.:25:54.

safety concerns for years but felt ignored.

:25:55.:25:57.

Many in social housing complained of unresponsive, uncaring

:25:58.:25:59.

Especially in central London, where they suspect the councils

:26:00.:26:05.

would rather sell off valuable sites to developers.

:26:06.:26:08.

She said something like, I have put wet towels under

:26:09.:26:10.

the door and I am just really scared.

:26:11.:26:12.

Rizwan Hussain lost a friend and fellow activist in

:26:13.:26:19.

He is sceptical of conspiracies but understands how

:26:20.:26:23.

In regards to the local authority, I think there was just a lack of

:26:24.:26:31.

answers coming from them, there was a lack of representation.

:26:32.:26:34.

Everything on the ground was basically community-led.

:26:35.:26:41.

People were asking the question, where are the local authorities and

:26:42.:26:43.

Where is the organised system in place of

:26:44.:26:46.

And that didn't happen until a few days after.

:26:47.:26:49.

Questions about numbers and where people are,

:26:50.:26:55.

who people are, because they are not being answered, there is a sort of

:26:56.:26:58.

And that suspicion extends to the people that

:26:59.:27:05.

used to be trusted to report tragedies like Grenfell.

:27:06.:27:09.

Now, the media is seen by some as peddling

:27:10.:27:11.

In collusion with the powerful to mislead and

:27:12.:27:14.

Do you have have a lot more faith in the people you talk to around

:27:15.:27:20.

More than the authorities or even the media, to explain?

:27:21.:27:26.

Yes, because we understand what we're

:27:27.:27:28.

going through, we are the ones going through it.

:27:29.:27:31.

And we understand it because we're all very close.

:27:32.:27:33.

Or put on what they want to see or what they

:27:34.:27:43.

We have had no trust in the council for years.

:27:44.:27:48.

So that has made us even worse than what we were.

:27:49.:27:51.

Do you simply not trust us to tell the truth?

:27:52.:27:53.

I have seen some things that they have shown and

:27:54.:28:06.

A human tragedy of this scale touches so many

:28:07.:28:21.

lives in ways that can never be recorded in official statistics.

:28:22.:28:25.

What is clear is that no appeal to the facts as explained and

:28:26.:28:29.

interpreted by authority figures and established media will do much

:28:30.:28:32.

to reform the strongly held opinions that swirl around this disaster.

:28:33.:28:42.

Sian Berry is a Chair of the Housing Committee

:28:43.:28:46.

And Shaun Bailey is a Conservative Party member of London's Assembly.

:28:47.:29:01.

He grew up close to Grenfell - in the borough of

:29:02.:29:04.

It would seem there has been an epic breakdown of public trust or an epic

:29:05.:29:11.

escalation. Do you think this dispute over the death toll is a

:29:12.:29:16.

symptom or a cause? I think it is a symptom, it has to be said there was

:29:17.:29:19.

a lack of information about the death toll and one thing the police

:29:20.:29:23.

normally do in cases like this is put out an estimate of who they

:29:24.:29:26.

think was in the incident and how many people might have survived and

:29:27.:29:30.

those key pieces of information were not given by the police for a very

:29:31.:29:34.

long time, they would only give that number so it is understandable there

:29:35.:29:37.

would be scepticism. I challenge the Mayor and the police and this week

:29:38.:29:42.

for the first time they have put out those numbers and we can have a

:29:43.:29:47.

debate, the police think there were 350 people inside and locals might

:29:48.:29:50.

have different views and before there was nothing to talk about

:29:51.:29:53.

because the police had not given those numbers. It is very important

:29:54.:29:59.

that is clear. In terms of general mistrust, I was called there, myself

:30:00.:30:06.

and Sean are London wide Assembly Members, representing everybody who

:30:07.:30:10.

needs our help and I was asked to come down five days in London are

:30:11.:30:14.

required to help get some practical things done. Largely for the wider

:30:15.:30:18.

community rather than people who had been evacuated, people still in the

:30:19.:30:22.

area, feeling besieged by the media, wondering where any support might

:30:23.:30:26.

be. An absolute lack of information about things like road closures,

:30:27.:30:30.

whether even the school would be open. There was nothing for people

:30:31.:30:37.

and I think you saw that day when you doing everything, there was no

:30:38.:30:40.

information. And it is still not much better and I am still getting

:30:41.:30:44.

messages from people every day, I have had to go back three or four

:30:45.:30:49.

times, there is something very broken there and people are still

:30:50.:30:56.

fending for themselves. This is a vacuum into which volunteers have

:30:57.:31:00.

moved and in many ways continue to bear the brunt of front-line service

:31:01.:31:04.

that the residents expected to be provided by the council. In the

:31:05.:31:08.

continuing absence of the council, it took the former head 80 days to

:31:09.:31:13.

effectively show his face in public before resigning. The continuing

:31:14.:31:16.

absence on the ground of the council, how can these people be

:31:17.:31:19.

expected to place faith in the council that they perceive as

:31:20.:31:24.

letting them down badly? They simply will not, I lived there for a very

:31:25.:31:29.

long time, my friends and family out there, the reaction of the community

:31:30.:31:32.

does not surprise me, they have always been reactive, we look after

:31:33.:31:36.

our own, the council failed by not giving this a human face and saying

:31:37.:31:41.

we are responsible for putting this right, I understand they are scared

:31:42.:31:45.

of litigation. Do you understand the scepticism about the numbers? I do

:31:46.:31:52.

not buy into the conspiracies but I fully understand why and where that

:31:53.:31:56.

is coming from. If you look at social housing, many people across

:31:57.:31:59.

London are under different leadership, Labour and Conservative

:32:00.:32:04.

and whatever, they feel social housing is inflicted upon them, they

:32:05.:32:09.

have no say, it is not explained why it works the way it does and does

:32:10.:32:14.

things have built up over years. Our community is told its Muslim members

:32:15.:32:18.

are terrorists and the young black men are criminals so they hold out

:32:19.:32:21.

to people who do not try to understand them. The council have

:32:22.:32:25.

built up quite a good reputation, they did a lot of work on the

:32:26.:32:29.

ground, that has been trashed by a very poor response to this. The new

:32:30.:32:34.

council leader has a very steep hill to climb. Some residents would

:32:35.:32:38.

dispute your notion that there was much in place to trashed. We are

:32:39.:32:42.

familiar with the action group's blog that warrant and predicted. You

:32:43.:32:48.

had a community on the ground that the council would largely work with

:32:49.:32:53.

a mini youth groups etc, but when it comes to social housing, which

:32:54.:32:56.

affects a much larger group of people in the area, the council were

:32:57.:33:02.

too distant, they have moved away. Do you understand how that has

:33:03.:33:07.

happened? Yes, as a country we do not punish those in high places and

:33:08.:33:12.

what happens, when I speak to young people, they say, I bet you nobody

:33:13.:33:16.

gets in trouble for this. And there is a very serious thing that can be

:33:17.:33:22.

done, the enquiry, the terms, how the Yoko -- local people... It is

:33:23.:33:29.

important someone explains to them what that enquiry means, you have to

:33:30.:33:33.

manage expectations right now because if not, you will never

:33:34.:33:37.

rebuild the trust. This is an important moment. The enquiry will

:33:38.:33:42.

fail without this trust? This is an important moment for the political

:33:43.:33:44.

establishment to start rebuilding trust. Do you have optimism that

:33:45.:33:51.

that can happen? Against a backdrop that is almost unspeakably big? Yes,

:33:52.:33:57.

local people are organising, trying their best but they are not being

:33:58.:34:01.

given resources and we need a complete reconfiguration of

:34:02.:34:10.

democracy there. ?300 million in Chelsea's back. Why not give that to

:34:11.:34:14.

voluntary groups to get on with what needs doing? We have seen three

:34:15.:34:19.

changes of leadership, of who is running the relief organisation and

:34:20.:34:22.

we are waiting for things to get sorted out, if those organisations

:34:23.:34:27.

and charities had the funding... It is not just about funding. In the

:34:28.:34:35.

short term. It is about disaster response, hand on heart, other

:34:36.:34:38.

council leaders across the country, can they say they would respond

:34:39.:34:43.

better? Probably not. You need a group of people seen enough to make

:34:44.:34:47.

decisions on the ground, anybody directly affected should not find

:34:48.:34:51.

things out in the media, they should be contacted directly and first. And

:34:52.:34:55.

that is not happening. Without that response and team and the seniority

:34:56.:35:00.

to deliver, you will always disappoint the local people. Many

:35:01.:35:02.

thanks to both of you for your time. The Government - in the shape

:35:03.:35:05.

of the Deputy Prime Minister in all but name, Damian Green -

:35:06.:35:09.

said today that it was likely that we'll get a good deal with the EU

:35:10.:35:13.

and the chances of there being no deal at all is

:35:14.:35:16.

"probably overstated." But in tonight's Viewsnight,

:35:17.:35:18.

David Cameron's former advisor, Julian Glover, urges them to get

:35:19.:35:20.

on with it. On the issue of that deal -

:35:21.:37:02.

or no deal - with the EU, there are two particular issues that

:37:03.:37:06.

may need urgent attention. First, the UK's scheduled

:37:07.:37:09.

withdrawal from membership of the European nuclear regulator,

:37:10.:37:12.

Euratom, about which the medical and scientific communities have

:37:13.:37:16.

expressed grave concern. And - separately -

:37:17.:37:19.

we heard warnings today from Ryanair that all fights to the continent

:37:20.:37:23.

could be grounded if we don't get an air transport

:37:24.:37:26.

agreement in place sharpish. Our Political Editor,

:37:27.:37:29.

Nick Watt and our Business Editor, Helen Thomas have been looking

:37:30.:37:31.

into both of these matters. I will begin with Nick Watt. What do

:37:32.:37:45.

we know about the Euratom situation? The government is facing the

:37:46.:37:49.

prospect of its first major Brexit rebellion over plans to pull out of

:37:50.:37:53.

that treaty. I have learned the government is planning to negotiate

:37:54.:37:57.

a form of associate membership of that treaty. It is not technically

:37:58.:38:03.

an EU treaty but it is overseen by the European Court of Justice. I

:38:04.:38:06.

understand this movement by the government will be enough to satisfy

:38:07.:38:11.

some of the Tory rebels. They believe that associate membership

:38:12.:38:16.

could be happy halfway house that could set precedent for a half in,

:38:17.:38:20.

half out future relationship with the EU and they except the UK cannot

:38:21.:38:28.

go back into Euratom as a full member because advice from UK and EU

:38:29.:38:32.

lawyers is cleared- if you leave the EU, you have to leave Euratom, even

:38:33.:38:37.

though it is not technically an EU treaty. We might have to wait for

:38:38.:38:40.

this to be announced, the government will set out its position paper on

:38:41.:38:45.

Euratom but that will be general and the rebels will hold back for the

:38:46.:38:49.

moment. And some news on that Repeal Bill? Labour have announced this

:38:50.:38:57.

evening but unless that will is amended, they will vote against it

:38:58.:39:01.

at its second reading in early September. Keir Starmer, the Shadow

:39:02.:39:06.

Brexit Secretary, says that Bill allows the government to record too

:39:07.:39:10.

much power and mirrors what he described as flawed approach on the

:39:11.:39:15.

European Court of Justice. If Labour votes against it, it will not

:39:16.:39:18.

necessarily stop the bill in its tracks because potential Tory rebels

:39:19.:39:22.

would not vote against it at the second reading but it will embolden

:39:23.:39:27.

them to amend it with Labour further down the line and ministers are not

:39:28.:39:32.

happy, they say, do not reverse the will of the people. Many thanks.

:39:33.:39:37.

Helen, what did Michael O'Leary have to say? Classic Michael O'Leary, he

:39:38.:39:42.

was in the European Parliament, time to do with reality, flights. After

:39:43.:39:48.

Brexit, Ryanair would shift their craft, we will have to holiday in

:39:49.:39:51.

Scotland or Ireland. You get the idea. The single market and aviation

:39:52.:39:57.

allows airlines to fly freely in Europe and is no fallback option so

:39:58.:40:01.

you need a new agreement and his view is this will not happen because

:40:02.:40:05.

of the red lines put around negotiations by the government and

:40:06.:40:09.

that is debatable. What is truth is airlines sell seats about one year

:40:10.:40:13.

in advance so you need to get a move on. You say classic Michael O'Leary,

:40:14.:40:16.

is airlines sell seats about one year in advance so you need to get a

:40:17.:40:19.

move on. You say classic Michael O'Leary, busy flying solo? I have

:40:20.:40:22.

spoken to several industry types and they are overwhelmingly confident

:40:23.:40:26.

there will be a deal, Willie Walsh, the boss of the owner of British

:40:27.:40:30.

Airways says he thought it would be relatively straightforward. The

:40:31.:40:35.

reasoning, governments on both sides and airlines on both sides want to

:40:36.:40:39.

deal, otherwise everybody loses, tourism, trade and business. There

:40:40.:40:45.

are compensations, a basic bilateral deal preserves UK to Europe flights

:40:46.:40:49.

and vice versa but not necessarily easy jet flying around Europe.

:40:50.:40:53.

Ownership is a problem because current rules require you to be a

:40:54.:40:59.

majority EU owned. Ultimately, the industry thinks we will get a deal

:41:00.:41:02.

because it would be unimaginable chaos without that. Thank you both

:41:03.:41:04.

very much indeed. We just had to leave you with this

:41:05.:41:06.

piece of surreal theatre from Perhaps by repeating it we're just

:41:07.:41:11.

proving the author's point, but here's the actor Andy Serkis,

:41:12.:41:17.

who plays Gollum in The Lord of the Rings, reading out

:41:18.:41:20.

Donald Trump's Twitter feed. AS GOLLUM: The fake news media has

:41:21.:41:22.

never been so wrong... Purposefully incorrect

:41:23.:41:29.

stories and funny sources. We had a beautiful day

:41:30.:41:37.

across the UK today, just a bit of fairweather cloud

:41:38.:41:56.

here and there. Tonight, clear skies

:41:57.:41:59.

and there is raw chill on way,

:42:00.:42:02.