20/07/2017 Newsnight


20/07/2017

Analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines. Should the UK embark on a transition phase after leaving the EU, and how far should security services go to combat terrorism?


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Transcript


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Do you want the journey to Brexit to be a slow Wade, or would you rather

:00:00.:00:12.

it was a fast, clean leap into our new arrangement? It's becoming a

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refight of the battle between remain and leave. The transitional

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arrangements, how fast we exit, is a slow transition simply a ploy to

:00:22.:00:27.

stop Brexit all together? The old and tired phrase, it looks like a

:00:28.:00:31.

duck, walks like a ducks, quacks like a duck - it is a duck and the

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soft Brexiteers are in fact people who've always rejected the result.

:00:37.:00:41.

We'll debate the pros and cons of different transitional plans. Is

:00:42.:00:44.

this the future of Counter-Terrorism? Automatic

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monitoring of suspects on a database watch list. We have got to be

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vigilant all the time and mustn't let our guard down. We must use the

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latest technology to take the fight to the terrorists. Grenfell - a new

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Deputy Leader of Kensington and Chelsea Council and he's taking over

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the authority's response to the fire. We meet him. I think the

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mistake was that we thought that we could do this on our own. And the

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scale was much, much lanker. If I was going to point to the biggest

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thing, we delayed before we started engaging on a national level and

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getting support. Hello. The Brexit talks between

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Britain and the EU carried on again today. The sides are still stuck on

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the divorce bill and citizens' rights. More on that shortly. Away

:01:42.:01:46.

from the negotiation with them in the EU, there is something of a

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negotiation going on here within the UK, or more precisely within the UK

:01:52.:01:56.

Government. It's about a potential transitional arrangement, the day we

:01:57.:01:59.

leave the EU - how long does the transition need to be and xa exactly

:02:00.:02:03.

happens in it? It's becoming the central divisive question in the

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Conservative Party on how Brexit should proceed. Our Political

:02:07.:02:10.

Editor, Nick watt is with me. Nick, let's just start on the negotiations

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with the EU first, the ones today. How are they progressing? Today was

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round two of the Brexit divorce talks in Brussels between David

:02:20.:02:23.

Davis, as you see there, and Michel Barnier, the EU's chief negotiator.

:02:24.:02:28.

Supporters of the Brexit secretary said the talks went much better than

:02:29.:02:32.

expected on two of the key areas, progress on the rights of EU

:02:33.:02:38.

citizens and on Northern Ireland. The big difficulty is the money. The

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UK's made clear there is absolutely no way it's going to pay the ?100

:02:43.:02:47.

billion euros that has been mentioned in Brussels. I spoke to a

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senior source who said that if the UK was able to say it reduced that

:02:51.:02:54.

figure by say around two thirds, then it may be up for paying what

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would still be a substantial sum of money. Now, the reason why that's

:03:00.:03:05.

important is that Michel Barnier gave a much less upbeat assessment

:03:06.:03:09.

and he said the UK has got to clarify its position on that

:03:10.:03:11.

payment. Right. I mean that's all the

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immediate stuff isn't it. Let's think about the issues coming down

:03:17.:03:19.

the line. This particular one of transition? That's right. The focus

:03:20.:03:24.

in Brussels is on the immediate sort of divorce arrangement but the

:03:25.:03:28.

debate in the UK has been on the immediate period after the UK leaves

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the EU in the spring of 2019. Now, in her Lancaster House speech in

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January, the Prime Minister talked about how there would have to be an

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implementation phase between leaving the EU and then fully agreeing that

:03:42.:03:46.

future trading relationship. Now, since the election, a rather bullish

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Philip Hammond who of course voted Remain in the general election, he's

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been talking about a transition period of a couple of years. That

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would involve a very close relationship with the core bodies

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and institutions of the EU. I've been looking at the debate in

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Cabinet on the highly charged issue of that transitional phase.

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MUSIC You can have a transition agreement

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that keeps as little disruption as possible. We are not going to be

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talking a couple of months, it will be a couple of years. It has to have

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an end date. To transition or not to transition? That is the question

:04:32.:04:36.

that's been dividing ministers. Whether Britain should sever its

:04:37.:04:40.

formal links with the EU at the point of departure or whether the UK

:04:41.:04:46.

should move at a slower pace as lain at the heart of recent Cabinet

:04:47.:04:51.

squabbling. In the so-called soft Brexit corner stands Philip Hammond

:04:52.:04:54.

who's called for a transitional period of a couple of years after

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the UK leaves the EU. Over in the hard Brexit corner stands Liam Fox

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who echoed the Prime Minister's language when he talked recently of

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an implementation phase lasting a few months. Allies of the Chancellor

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say Philip Hammond is increasingly confident that Cabinet Ministers are

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coming round to his view as they heed his warnings about a cliff edge

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Brexit. There is talk about how pragmatic leaves will accept what is

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described as Norway plus, associate status within the single market, a

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looser relationship with the customs union, to allow the UK to negotiate

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free trade deals around the world and a special court to end the deaf

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intive jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice over the UK --

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definitive. The Chancellor's camp say the blueprint represents a

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challenge to Brussels which is saying the UK should be subject to

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all of the rules of the EU during a transition period. A Remain

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supporter even talks of maintaining the status quo for a limited period.

:06:00.:06:04.

Even though we have left the EU at that period, for the time scale that

:06:05.:06:10.

it would take to negotiate a new trade agreement, so maybe a couple

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of years, we would still keep the same status quo to give businesses

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certainty and to give them time to adjust to the new economic

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arrangements. Liam Fox slightly changed tack this week when he said

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he wouldn't be troubled been aimplementation phase lasting two

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years. One leading Brexit supporter is wary of talk about a transition

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period. Well then we are only out of the European Union in some

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theological sense that if we are subject to rules of the single

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market, the regulations of the single market, we are subject to the

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European Court of Justice, we are paying for the privilege and can't

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do free trade deals with the rest of the world, we are in the European

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Union and the old and tired phrase, it walks and talks and quacks like a

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duck, it is a duck. These soft Brexiteers are in fact people who've

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always rejected the result of the referendum there, the Tony Blairs of

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this world who wish it hadn't happened and think that they can

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magic it away. I don't think the British voters will accept that.

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Jacob Rees-Mogg believes under most scenarios, a transitional phase may

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not even be necessary. If the talks are going well, and we know in

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advance, some margin in advance of 2019 that there will be an

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agreement, then any implementation period will be very short. If on the

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other hand the talks are going very badly, then it will be too late to

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announce an implementation programme right at the end because people will

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need to have made plans for no agreement. On either basis, there's

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not much for an implementation to take care of. Either it's terrible

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and it's too late, or it's gone well and then you've already got time to

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implement between the talks being concluded and the final date of our

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leaving. As Parliament finally breaks up for the summer recess,

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there are tentative signs of the Cabinet coaling around a transition

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period last ago few years -- co Al elsing. Brexit supporters remain

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deeply suspicious. Nick, what there would the debate

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within the Conservative Party about the need for a transitional period

:08:29.:08:32.

or not. Let's work through the substance of that now. Do we need

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one? I'm joined by Stephen Bullock, whose job did once involve

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negotiating with the other member states. Ukip's Suzanne Evans also

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joins me. Stephen can you perhaps explain why you think we do need

:08:47.:08:53.

some kind of transition? I think the two clear reasons why a transition

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is absolutely necessary are, I think the first reason is that there is

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simply no chance in the time available of fully comprehensive

:09:04.:09:07.

Free Trade Agreement being agreed. I think we'll be or should be very

:09:08.:09:13.

grateful if the divorce agreement and some agreement on the future

:09:14.:09:18.

relationship including possibly a set of principles and possibly a

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transitional arrangement, if that's what the UK wants, be agreed by the

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end of that time. I think there is no chance of getting the FTA. The

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level of complexity involved also, that simply requires a much longer

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amount of... Longer, you just said longer. That was the word. How long?

:09:39.:09:42.

What do you think it needs to be as does it have to have a final date

:09:43.:09:46.

before we go in, or do you basically think it can be indefinite? Well,

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personally I wouldn't mind if it was indefinite. I think the European

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Parliament's said very clearly that it would want it to be having a

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clear end date and they wouldn't want it to be some sort of half way

:10:03.:10:07.

house permanently. I don't think it's in the EU's interests to want

:10:08.:10:11.

that to be permanent with the ever present threat that the UK then

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decides it wants to end the arrangement or start a new

:10:16.:10:19.

arrangement, then we have to go through a similar process than the

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one we are going through now again. Suzanne Evans, do you think we can

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get away without any transition, is that really possible? This is what

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we were told. Going back to the EU referendum campaign, I don't recall

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the word transition being used once. This is a ruse that has been brought

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in by the people that want us to stay in. Fascinating to hear Stephen

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talking about, it's not in the EU interest to keep the transition

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phase going forever. Of course it is, we are a major net contributor

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and will be subject to their laws and migration controls. We won't

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have any freedom at all. The fact is, the people of Britain know

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exactly what they voted for, they voted to take back control of our

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minute, our laws and borders -- our money, our laws and borders. We are

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not going to be take back any of those for goodness knows how long.

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We either leave in March 2019 or are held hostage for an indefinite

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period of time. Why is it so bindery, what is the hurry because

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it's quite possible we won't be ready to leave then but we will be

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ready to leave a year or 18 months, two years later? This is always

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Ukip's concern about doing the Article 50 route, that lays out a

:11:28.:11:31.

two-year period. If it's not possible to do it in two years, why

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did Article 50 say it should be possible. The whole thing is utter

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nonsense, clearly a ruse. As for the Free Trade Agreement that's

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apparently going to take a huge length of time, Free Trade

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Agreements are struck around the world without 28 countries having to

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agree in a matter of months. The only reason we won't potentially be

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able to do a Free Trade Agreement is because the European Union is

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expressly forbidding us from starting those negotiations with

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other countries now. So it's a bit of a false argument. One can't help

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but feel there is there something to be said, Stephen, that you do just

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want to delay Brexit or stop it all together and hope that maybe after

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two years something else come ace long and we never go through with

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it. Isn't that deep down what you are really saying? Well, my personal

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view as a Remain voter are that we should scrap Brexit as we have

:12:26.:12:29.

discovered that it's unbelievably harmful to the UK or going to be.

:12:30.:12:34.

There was a landmark study done by the UK in the changing EU at Kings

:12:35.:12:38.

College today, it was released today, it showed very clearly that

:12:39.:12:43.

leaving without a deal would be absolutely catastrophic,

:12:44.:12:45.

particularly economically. All economic predictions are that it

:12:46.:12:50.

will be a catastrophe. The leave campaign promised it would be

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excellent and that there would be lots of money flowing, that we could

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use for lots of lovely things. That's not what's going to happen. .

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The point is that there are a series of realities here, such as food

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standards, aviation, we have seen it with Euroton over medical treatment,

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all this needs agreement. That is very helpful but let's take the

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specifics and put them to Suzanne. Michael O'Leary of Ryanair said

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timetables are coming out in a year, they need to know whether they are

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allowed to fly and it's not fixed up. If you ask Michael O'Leary and

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Stephen, they would say they want the transition period to go on for a

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long time because they don't want it. If they play hard ball and say

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we are not talking to you, what will happen? I don't think we will be

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playing hard ball on aviation rights. We'll be begging them to let

:13:44.:13:47.

them fly into their air space? The same with trade. Stephen said the

:13:48.:13:51.

economic case will be disastrous if we leave. That's not true. If we

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have tariffs and trade under World Trade Organisation terms, that will

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bring economic benefit of ?12.7 billion. What happens on aviation

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rights. Supposing they say we are waiting for a proper negotiation and

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we say no, we are leaving, what happens? There is no treaty

:14:13.:14:17.

governing... But that's not going to happen, is it? Stephen is it going

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to happen, is it going to be said that you can't have nuclear

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materials and fly out of Heathrow Airport? I think it's actually

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slightly worse than the aviation market. Everyone talks about the

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aviation market. I only found out recently that aviation safety is

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currently done by an EU agency which is covered by the ECJ, as they all

:14:40.:14:44.

are, and that the UK doesn't have its own capacity for the

:14:45.:14:49.

certification of the people who repair aeroplanes. At the moment

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they have 19 months to establish a regulatory framework on the and to

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recruit and train people to be able to do that. My point is that there

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are literally hundreds, it's a 40-year complicated relationship,

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there are hundreds of areas that keep cropping up. Every time I run

:15:05.:15:09.

into a sector expert in Brussels he tells me about the difficulties that

:15:10.:15:12.

there are going to be in his area. I'd never thought of the energy

:15:13.:15:18.

market, for example, I know that energy experts thought about Euroton

:15:19.:15:24.

and Isotopes. We are going to see more of these moments that we didn't

:15:25.:15:31.

realise... Suzanne, she is shrugging in a weary way as though she's heard

:15:32.:15:36.

it all before. I'm sure she is because she believes in Brexit at

:15:37.:15:37.

any cost to the economy. This idea of the cliff edge, the

:15:38.:15:50.

fact is, this shows how deeply embedded we have got into the

:15:51.:15:55.

European Union. This is what we have to get out of. Is it whether we have

:15:56.:16:04.

time to create border posts and understand the structure? To you

:16:05.:16:10.

except we need even now we need some sort of transitional period? We

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should be doing that right now, that is the issue, what we can do right

:16:15.:16:20.

now, this is about Article 50, this slow move progress, designed not to

:16:21.:16:25.

allow countries to leave but to keep them in. If we were to repeal the

:16:26.:16:32.

1970s European Communities Act, ultimately it would have been to our

:16:33.:16:36.

benefit. Thank you both very much. We have to leave it there. Time now

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for a Viewsnight - the part of the programme where we give space for

:16:50.:16:51.

original and provocative opinion. Tonight we hear from Naomi Klein -

:16:52.:16:54.

activist and author of "No is Not Enough - defeating the New Shock

:16:55.:16:55.

Politics". At the centre of the hapless

:16:56.:18:56.

response to the Grenfell Tower fire is a London borough,

:18:57.:19:01.

the Royal Borough of By universal acknowledgement,

:19:02.:19:03.

it failed to rise to the challenge. And as the owner of the building

:19:04.:19:07.

and inspector of building works, it is in line

:19:08.:19:10.

for other criticism, too. Those who survived the fire

:19:11.:19:14.

are understandably angry at the council -

:19:15.:19:16.

and that erupted last night at a council meeting which confirmed

:19:17.:19:18.

in post a new council leader. Well, the Communities Secretary,

:19:19.:19:29.

Sajid Javid, updated the Commons today on Grenfell and made the point

:19:30.:19:34.

that the council won't be trusted The initial response

:19:35.:19:37.

from the local authority There is not a lot of trust there,

:19:38.:19:40.

not a lot of confidence. And that is why, once Kensington

:19:41.:19:47.

and Chelsea Council takes over the recovery operation,

:19:48.:19:50.

it will do so under the supervision of the independent

:19:51.:19:54.

Grenfell Recovery Task Force. It is there to provide advice

:19:55.:20:01.

and support and see to it that the council does the job

:20:02.:20:04.

that is required of it. The council has now at least

:20:05.:20:07.

appointed a deputy leader, who is to take responsibility

:20:08.:20:09.

for the Grenfell response. His name is Kim Taylor-Smith,

:20:10.:20:13.

and I met him at the council I asked him where he thought the

:20:14.:20:24.

council had gone wrong in the response to the disaster.

:20:25.:20:27.

I think the mistake was that we thought we could do this

:20:28.:20:30.

on our own and the scale was much, much larger and I think

:20:31.:20:33.

if I was going to point to the biggest thing,

:20:34.:20:35.

we delayed before we started engaging on a national

:20:36.:20:40.

I was talking to somebody today and they were criticising this and

:20:41.:20:48.

We have two people in our comms department and we had 5000 people

:20:49.:20:55.

They just weren't able to deal with this scale.

:20:56.:20:59.

It seems remarkable that you didn't throw money at it?

:21:00.:21:01.

You have huge reserves as a council, ?274 million.

:21:02.:21:05.

Well, we obviously do have large reserves and thank goodness we do

:21:06.:21:08.

because obviously the application of those is going to be

:21:09.:21:10.

As far as specifically, on the first day, we booked 350 hotels,

:21:11.:21:14.

Money wasn't a limiting factor in terms of that,

:21:15.:21:18.

We were giving emergency payments as well.

:21:19.:21:29.

When Nick Paget-Brown, the former leader, when he stepped

:21:30.:21:31.

down, he talked about perceived failings of the council and he

:21:32.:21:34.

Can I ask whether you think there are perceived failings

:21:35.:21:37.

I think I have to be a little bit careful.

:21:38.:21:41.

There is going to be an enquiry on this.

:21:42.:21:43.

Certainly, from my perspective, there were a lot of things

:21:44.:21:47.

that we could have done better and a lot of things that we should

:21:48.:21:51.

So I think we have failed as far as our local

:21:52.:21:56.

Can I ask why you would be hesitant to say that there were failings?

:21:57.:22:13.

Because to most of us it is so obvious there were failings,

:22:14.:22:16.

there should be no hesitation in just saying, we failed.

:22:17.:22:19.

It is not that it could have been better, it was terrible.

:22:20.:22:23.

And the council let people down very badly.

:22:24.:22:25.

Where I feel quite strongly is that we have officers in this

:22:26.:22:33.

situation, not councillors, we have officers in this time

:22:34.:22:40.

of situation who have worked incredibly hard and from day one,

:22:41.:22:43.

and they have a shadow cast over them in terms of the overall review

:22:44.:22:49.

So, I am going to be a little bit guarded in terms of laying criticism

:22:50.:22:55.

So, last year, the council took ?55 million in social rent.

:22:56.:22:59.

And invested less than that back in social housing.

:23:00.:23:01.

Is it appropriate for a council effectively to make money,

:23:02.:23:04.

to see social housing as a moneymaking operation

:23:05.:23:06.

as opposed to a money spending operation?

:23:07.:23:07.

First of all, the numbers you have quoted, you have given

:23:08.:23:10.

a gross figure of rents, in terms of net it is actually

:23:11.:23:13.

about ?11 million a year, which is still a sizeable

:23:14.:23:15.

Again, I don't want to sound evasive.

:23:16.:23:18.

On why that wasn't spent or how that was spent.

:23:19.:23:22.

Certainly as far as the commitment we have given, we have committed

:23:23.:23:25.

to do 400 houses within the next five years and we have

:23:26.:23:28.

I really want to look forward in terms of what is going to happen

:23:29.:23:33.

rather than what has happened in the past.

:23:34.:23:37.

It has been easy to write this disaster up as a council that was

:23:38.:23:45.

too good at looking after wealthier residents, the majority in the area,

:23:46.:23:50.

and was not concerned really about the poor residents. Do you think

:23:51.:23:56.

that is a reasonable way of looking at what happened at Grenfell? No, in

:23:57.:24:04.

terms of investing to a certain sector, if we go to Grenfell, that

:24:05.:24:11.

was part of the ?60 million investment, there was the new

:24:12.:24:16.

school, with 1000 local children, there was a new sports Academy and

:24:17.:24:22.

refurbishment of the Grenfell Tower, all from local people. Not

:24:23.:24:27.

gentrification. A lot of people said, the purpose of the cladding

:24:28.:24:31.

was to make it look nice for the richer residents who lived around it

:24:32.:24:36.

so they did not have to look at the old Grenfell Tower? Is there

:24:37.:24:40.

something in that? I totally disagree. If you are going to

:24:41.:24:43.

refurbish the building, why would you not want the building to improve

:24:44.:24:53.

how would looks? The meeting last night, the Grenfell Action Group,

:24:54.:24:56.

the leader said he was appalled by the behaviour of councillors, there

:24:57.:25:01.

was whispering and giggling, would you answer that? If that behaviour

:25:02.:25:04.

was going on I was not aware of that from where I was sitting and I would

:25:05.:25:08.

not condone that. He said the council are managing this as a PR

:25:09.:25:16.

disaster. Public relations, rather than as an actual disaster. Any

:25:17.:25:22.

fairness in that? I am not sure we have done a lot of PR in order to

:25:23.:25:28.

manage the disaster and of the work, we have seemingly failed in terms of

:25:29.:25:32.

that. Some people would say that after such a calamity, the

:25:33.:25:36.

appropriate thing is for people who warned about this or who wanted

:25:37.:25:41.

change beforehand are the ones to take over, not the people who were

:25:42.:25:46.

in charge beforehand? We have an election in May, we also have to

:25:47.:25:51.

keep the wheels on the bus, this is a large borough and there is a lot

:25:52.:25:58.

of things we do well so there is benefit to continuity and the skill

:25:59.:26:01.

sets of the people we have got within the new Cabinet, whilst I

:26:02.:26:07.

accept what you say in terms of trust and mistrust, they are the

:26:08.:26:11.

right people to do this. Kim Taylor-Smith, thank you very much.

:26:12.:26:15.

It is fairly routine these days for cameras to be programmed

:26:16.:26:17.

But Newsnight has learned that highly advanced computer technology

:26:18.:26:24.

is being tested here at the far more complicated task of

:26:25.:26:27.

The idea is that it can help keep tabs on terrorist suspects.

:26:28.:26:31.

The technology works by comparing images of suspects on a terrorist

:26:32.:26:34.

watch list with the images of people who pass special cameras

:26:35.:26:37.

Alerts can be triggered if they approach high-profile

:26:38.:26:41.

targets, for example, or if they associate with other

:26:42.:26:43.

Could these face recognition cameras become as common as CCTV?

:26:44.:27:00.

The scale of the thread is huge, three terrorist attacks this year,

:27:01.:27:08.

35 people dead. Five attacks have been stopped in the past four

:27:09.:27:12.

months, some have told Newsnight it is time for a new approach. Is this

:27:13.:27:17.

the future of counterterrorism in the UK? Affects surveillance camera

:27:18.:27:23.

monitors people coming out of the building. Most are not on any

:27:24.:27:28.

terrorist watch list. But this person is. And his face is

:27:29.:27:34.

recognised automatically. Triggering an alert. With 23,000 now on the

:27:35.:27:43.

watch list, is this the way forward? It is impossible to use conventional

:27:44.:27:47.

means against that number of people, it cannot be done. The arithmetic,

:27:48.:27:53.

it cannot be done. The technology is able to do that job right now and

:27:54.:27:58.

therefore it is the responsibility of society and politicians to decide

:27:59.:28:01.

what is the appropriate way that might be deployed. We do need to

:28:02.:28:08.

debate to start to use these images in a more intimate and aggressive

:28:09.:28:14.

and more defined way. After the suicide bombing at the Manchester

:28:15.:28:20.

Arena in May, MI5 let it be known that 23,000 people in the UK have

:28:21.:28:24.

had links to violent Islamist extremism. 3000 are current threat

:28:25.:28:32.

and 20,000 have recent links. We know some of them are high up on

:28:33.:28:37.

those lists and getting constant attention and we also know that

:28:38.:28:41.

people might be down the list and might have featured years ago and

:28:42.:28:45.

have gone quiet and all of a sudden they become activated and carry out

:28:46.:28:49.

terrorist outrages, it is a huge challenge society as to how we deal

:28:50.:28:55.

with these potential suspects. The conditions are extremely difficult

:28:56.:28:58.

but they are proceeding as quickly as they can... Andy Trotter was

:28:59.:29:02.

deputy chief constable for British Transport Police at the time of the

:29:03.:29:07.

London bombings in 2005 and Chief Constable after that. Rejecting

:29:08.:29:13.

crowded spaces has been central to his 45 year police career. The

:29:14.:29:16.

dreadful events of the last few weeks should stick in our minds

:29:17.:29:20.

forever, they should not fade away. We have to be vigilant all the time

:29:21.:29:25.

and must not let our guard down and we must use the latest technology to

:29:26.:29:33.

take the fight to the terrorists. Both the leader of the Manchester

:29:34.:29:38.

attack and the leader of the London Bridge Rampage later when known

:29:39.:29:41.

extremists but they were assessed to be a low priority. They were on the

:29:42.:29:46.

radar but not under the microscope whenever they attacked. With 23,000

:29:47.:29:53.

on the list, how do we as a society monitoring that number? There is a

:29:54.:29:59.

technique called automatic face recognition that can help, it uses

:30:00.:30:02.

the images of faces taken from cameras deployed either overtly or

:30:03.:30:06.

covertly. They kind of automatic face recognition we are talking

:30:07.:30:12.

about relies on a machine learning and artificial intelligence, where

:30:13.:30:16.

computers teach themselves to identify people more effectively.

:30:17.:30:20.

Newsnight can reveal this technique was used in live surveillance

:30:21.:30:25.

operations before and after the recent terrorist attacks in

:30:26.:30:31.

Manchester and London. A small British company called Digital

:30:32.:30:35.

barriers has developed an advanced face recognition system. We set up a

:30:36.:30:39.

simple scenario using actors to show how this works. This is a typical

:30:40.:30:45.

surveillance camera but this is loaded with face recognition

:30:46.:30:48.

capability so you can see it as capturing everyone coming from the

:30:49.:30:52.

store away in a crowded space. Unknown on the left, this person is

:30:53.:30:56.

high risk. Somebody on the list has been spotted coming from the

:30:57.:31:01.

entrance of a typical camera and on the top left-hand side of the

:31:02.:31:05.

screen, because that is registering the match, we can see the identity

:31:06.:31:09.

of that person and that alert will go to the right place. This could be

:31:10.:31:13.

one of many thousands of such cameras in use every single day of

:31:14.:31:16.

the week looking for people against that database. The system uses an

:31:17.:31:22.

artificial intelligence technique called machine learning. We feed the

:31:23.:31:28.

computer millions of reference images where we know what the

:31:29.:31:31.

results are on the computer knows those results as well and when we

:31:32.:31:36.

feed it images it has not seen before, it can unfair what they

:31:37.:31:40.

might be and we allow the system to become ever better at the job of

:31:41.:31:46.

recognising people. The designers of the system say it can even work in

:31:47.:31:52.

bad light and we did our experiment, recognising faces through glass. We

:31:53.:31:56.

look at multiple reference points on the face of a person and in essence

:31:57.:32:02.

we create a map, biometric map, which is just code about as compared

:32:03.:32:05.

to the same maps created as people pass the camera.

:32:06.:32:12.

The use of video is key, enabling the system to analyse thousands of

:32:13.:32:20.

frames. It has been used in a whole range of applications. Should these

:32:21.:32:29.

tactics be yewed to monitor known extremists? He spent much of his

:32:30.:32:38.

career at the top of UK policing, a source, he says he believes most of

:32:39.:32:43.

the public will accept it. He says the UK's Counter-Terrorism tactics

:32:44.:32:51.

are out-of-date. Current Counter-Terrorism tactics were

:32:52.:32:54.

developed in response to Irish terrorism. From the 1970s on,

:32:55.:33:00.

terrorist networks were infiltrated. Bugs and probes were placed,

:33:01.:33:04.

suspects physically tracked. This approach takes a lot of surveillance

:33:05.:33:14.

officers on the ground. We recreated a classic operations or follow. We

:33:15.:33:18.

spoke to a former surveillance officer who spent five years working

:33:19.:33:22.

for the Metropolitan Police. Essentially we had the first

:33:23.:33:26.

operative following him the same side of the pavement to the corner,

:33:27.:33:30.

then they disengage and carry on because he's turned left. From this

:33:31.:33:35.

side of the street, cross over, re-engage on the left hand turn and

:33:36.:33:40.

the end of the street will be the primary position. Sounds like a

:33:41.:33:44.

labour-intensive process? Yes, it is. And that's without considering

:33:45.:33:49.

that you may need to have extra vehicles with extra crews on board,

:33:50.:33:54.

extra bodies on the ground, changeover shifts and potentially

:33:55.:33:59.

somebody on overwatch to operate the remote viewing equipment or even on

:34:00.:34:02.

the roof top. Another former surveillance officer told me he'd

:34:03.:34:07.

seen MI5 operations that used 40 people to trail one target over 24

:34:08.:34:14.

hours. It is a hugely labour-intensive operation. These

:34:15.:34:17.

people might do nothing for months, years, and all the time there might

:34:18.:34:21.

be others who need even more attention. That diverts resources

:34:22.:34:28.

from other things. If we can use this technology sensible, can good

:34:29.:34:32.

judicial oversight because obviously clearly there are issues here, I

:34:33.:34:35.

think the overriding civil liberty is keeping our society safe. If we

:34:36.:34:40.

can use this technology, we should. If an alert is triggered, what

:34:41.:34:46.

action should be taken? If an alarm is run through your camera system

:34:47.:34:49.

picking up one of these people, what do you do? At this stage all you've

:34:50.:34:54.

got is a positive identification of somebody on a watch list. Do they

:34:55.:34:57.

represent a threat? Are they planning some form of attack? Are

:34:58.:35:01.

they just going about their normal business popping down to see their

:35:02.:35:07.

mum or going out shopping? At London Bridge, protective rails have been

:35:08.:35:11.

installed but face recognition could offer a broader approach. In rising

:35:12.:35:16.

order of controversy, you could use it with targeted investigations,

:35:17.:35:19.

monitoring people entering and leaving an address, for example, or

:35:20.:35:24.

use multiple cameras to protect crowded spaces like stations or the

:35:25.:35:31.

citizens could become as ubiquitous as CCTV to build patterns of

:35:32.:35:36.

behaviour. We can take a database of muttple tens of thousands of people.

:35:37.:35:41.

So what are the patterns behind people's behaviour, so how many

:35:42.:35:44.

different times have people on a list that you may be interested in,

:35:45.:35:50.

visited certain locations or been in the same location at similar times

:35:51.:35:56.

to others you are interested in. This is being used in secret. We

:35:57.:36:01.

haven't had a conversation as a society about how or where and when

:36:02.:36:04.

it should be used. What we need is to have that conversation and we

:36:05.:36:08.

need to interrogate whether we are willing for something that can be

:36:09.:36:13.

very invasive and have a real impact on innocent people's freedoms every

:36:14.:36:16.

day, whether we are willing to have that installed in our society and

:36:17.:36:18.

what we need to make sure that we are protected from it going wrong.

:36:19.:36:24.

If you protected every single crowded place, people would feel

:36:25.:36:29.

they were living under some form of surveillance society so where does

:36:30.:36:33.

the balance end? The biggest attack on our civil liberties is the murder

:36:34.:36:36.

of our children and our people in Manchester and in London. Yes,

:36:37.:36:40.

there'll be an intrusion, of course there will but that is a price to

:36:41.:36:44.

pay if we can protect our society against the terrorist threat. The

:36:45.:36:50.

London bombings in 2005 remain Britain's worst terrorist attack.

:36:51.:36:54.

Back then, Newsnight revealed that the leader, Mohammad Sidique Khan

:36:55.:36:57.

featured in surveillance before the attack. He slipped through the net.

:36:58.:37:02.

With an ever lengthening watch list, some say the trade-off between

:37:03.:37:07.

intrusion and security must change. I'm concerned about civil liberties,

:37:08.:37:11.

as is anybody. I'm even more concerned about making sure we use

:37:12.:37:16.

the best kit we can to take the fight to the terrorist. We do not

:37:17.:37:21.

want to be having memorial services and we don't want to be thanking the

:37:22.:37:24.

blue light services for outstanding responses, we don't want to do this

:37:25.:37:28.

any more. Anything we can do to fight the terrorists and serious

:37:29.:37:32.

criminals, we should use it. Advanced face recognition will never

:37:33.:37:36.

replace conventional intelligence gathering. But it could help manage

:37:37.:37:42.

the watch list given the scale of the threat will society accept it?

:37:43.:37:47.

Richard Watson there. Almost time to go. Let's take a look at the papers,

:37:48.:37:54.

or some of them. The Times leads on transitional arrangements, borders

:37:55.:37:56.

will remain open for two years after Brexit. The Chancellor is juend

:37:57.:38:01.

Studioed stood to believe he has support of every Cabinet Minister

:38:02.:38:04.

for a deal, a new immigration regime will be put in place after the two

:38:05.:38:08.

year period. The Daily Telegraph on a similar theme, not quite the same

:38:09.:38:13.

story, it's one that says foreign criminals will be able to stay or

:38:14.:38:18.

some of them after we leave the EU. OJ Simpson on the cover of one of

:38:19.:38:22.

the papers, he's been given parole over in the US. And finally the

:38:23.:38:28.

Forwardian, free movement may go on until 2023, ministers accept, so

:38:29.:38:31.

that's a transitional arrangement that is a little bit longer. Well,

:38:32.:38:37.

that is it for tonight. Before we go, what have Bing Crosby, Paul

:38:38.:38:42.

Newman and Meetloaf got in common, they are one in part of the 12 women

:38:43.:38:47.

and 200 women who suffer from one form of colour blindness. A Belgian

:38:48.:38:54.

photographer's released a photo book using infrared exposure and hand

:38:55.:39:01.

painted images. A high proportion of residents suffer from total colour

:39:02.:39:05.

blindness in one area. Historians believe the gene that causes the

:39:06.:39:10.

condition can be traced to a King who repopulated the island after a

:39:11.:39:13.

tsunami, wiped out almost the entire population in the 1700s. So we leave

:39:14.:39:18.

you tonight with images from the island of the colour blind. Good

:39:19.:39:19.

night.

:39:20.:39:30.

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