07/09/2017 Newsnight


07/09/2017

As Hurricane Irma hits the Turks and Caicos, Kirsty Wark speaks to their governor. Plus, will the Germans fix Brexit for us? Do politics and religion mix?


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 07/09/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

After Antigua and Barbuda, in one hour Hurricane Irma will do

:00:07.:00:09.

Wooden homes versus 180 mph winds and 20-foot waves.

:00:10.:00:17.

Everyone who can has moved to the highest ground,

:00:18.:00:21.

as one of the strongest Atlantic storms in history causes havoc.

:00:22.:00:25.

We'll ask the islands' governor what he can do in the face

:00:26.:00:28.

The Eurocrats are ganging up on David Davis again,

:00:29.:00:32.

suggesting he's not very good at negotiating with them.

:00:33.:00:35.

Meanwhile the Eurosceptics are suggesting it doesn't matter,

:00:36.:00:37.

because Angela Merkel will be the one to cut the deal.

:00:38.:00:43.

It is down to Mutti to then actually leave the process.

:00:44.:00:48.

Now, she'll say, oh, I'm not leading this, and

:00:49.:00:50.

officially she'll be behind the scenes.

:00:51.:00:51.

But we all know that what Germany wants here, Germany will

:00:52.:00:54.

One of Labour's most prominent Remainers and a Tory leaver

:00:55.:01:01.

are here to pick the bones out of that one.

:01:02.:01:05.

Also tonight, is devout religion and political

:01:06.:01:06.

We'll ask the House of Commons chaplin, Rose Hudson Wilkin.

:01:07.:01:14.

And he's one of the most famous photographers in the world.

:01:15.:01:17.

Mario Testino tells us his most embarrassing secret.

:01:18.:01:19.

Useless in the kitchen, useless with cameras.

:01:20.:01:23.

I a very short time, the full force of Hurricane Irma

:01:24.:01:52.

is due to batter across the British Overseas Territory

:01:53.:01:54.

The little group of Caribbean islands' 35,000 residents have

:01:55.:01:57.

already seen the devastation wrought by the Category 5 storm

:01:58.:02:00.

in St Martin, Antigua, the BVI and Barbuda,

:02:01.:02:02.

where it flattened 90% of the territories' buildings.

:02:03.:02:03.

We'll be hearing shortly from some of those who are waiting nervously

:02:04.:02:06.

But first, what - if anything - does the intensity of this year's

:02:07.:02:11.

hurricane season tell us about the occurrence

:02:12.:02:13.

Irma is the strongest Atlantic storm in a decade,

:02:14.:02:18.

and comes hot on the heels of Hurricane Harvey, which wreaked

:02:19.:02:21.

Some have asked whether climate change might be having an impact.

:02:22.:02:25.

Or does extreme weather sometimes just happen?

:02:26.:02:27.

Seen from space, you could almost say Irma looks beautiful.

:02:28.:02:39.

From ground level, though, she has a very different face.

:02:40.:02:41.

The Caribbean island of St Martin, hit by 185mph winds,

:02:42.:02:44.

and Irma is still going, heading perhaps for the US mainland.

:02:45.:02:48.

It is what we sometimes rather helplessly refer

:02:49.:02:51.

to as an act of God - no-one to blame, nothing to be done

:02:52.:02:54.

but pick through the wreckage, mourn the dead and count the cost.

:02:55.:02:59.

But with two major hurricanes one after another, is this

:03:00.:03:01.

perhaps something else, an act of man, or at least

:03:02.:03:04.

The Greek president today was categoric -

:03:05.:03:09.

this WAS climate change, and President Trump must act.

:03:10.:03:16.

"I speak directly to the United States," he said,

:03:17.:03:18.

"because they the victims of climate change for the second

:03:19.:03:20.

But are the scientists as certain as the politicians?

:03:21.:03:29.

From observations alone, we will never be able to say

:03:30.:03:32.

that this is the event which would only have happened

:03:33.:03:34.

in a changing climate, because if you drill down

:03:35.:03:36.

to the individual storm, all extreme events are unique.

:03:37.:03:43.

However, we can say, and we need observations and climate

:03:44.:03:48.

models to do these studies, but we have climate models nowadays

:03:49.:03:52.

that CAN do this kind of job, we can say that the likelihood

:03:53.:03:55.

of certain events occurring has changed due

:03:56.:03:57.

And definitely the very extreme rainfall is one of the things

:03:58.:04:03.

where the likelihood has increased due to climate change.

:04:04.:04:09.

This year in the North Atlantic, there have so far been 11 named

:04:10.:04:12.

storms, of which six have been hurricanes.

:04:13.:04:14.

The average between 1981 and 2010 was six named storms,

:04:15.:04:17.

and 2.6 hurricanes - so we appear to be well up.

:04:18.:04:24.

In terms of wind speed, Irma is the joint second-strongest

:04:25.:04:27.

on record, at 185mph, eclipsed only by Hurricane Alan

:04:28.:04:29.

in 1980, with a maximum wind speed of 190mph.

:04:30.:04:37.

And with two and a quarter days at Category 5 intensity so far,

:04:38.:04:40.

Irma is the fourth longest duration hurricane on record,

:04:41.:04:44.

but still a whole day behind Hurricane Cuba,

:04:45.:04:46.

which in 1932 blew for three and a quarter days.

:04:47.:04:51.

The mechanism by which a warming climate might cause more hurricanes

:04:52.:04:54.

The fuel that drives hurricanes is water vapour,

:04:55.:05:02.

and the water vapour is evaporated off the sea surface and the warmer

:05:03.:05:05.

the sea surface, the more water vapour is evaporated

:05:06.:05:07.

and there's more energy to drive the storms.

:05:08.:05:10.

So, with global warming, the sea is warmer and there's more water

:05:11.:05:13.

being evaporated and there's more of the fuel to drive the big storms.

:05:14.:05:16.

And if we look at this graph produced by the US

:05:17.:05:20.

National Oceanographic and Atmospheric

:05:21.:05:21.

year, it does show a steady uptake of average sea temperatures.

:05:22.:05:30.

However, there are many other factors at play

:05:31.:05:32.

in the formation of a storm, some of which actually become LESS

:05:33.:05:34.

There is a competing effect, which is that if we also see higher

:05:35.:05:40.

temperatures higher up in the atmosphere, that

:05:41.:05:42.

And so we cannot say that we will see more intense

:05:43.:05:51.

hurricanes full-stop in a changing climate.

:05:52.:05:53.

But with the hurricanes that have been analysed so far,

:05:54.:05:58.

there have been a number that have intensified due to higher

:05:59.:06:00.

temperatures, but there is also a number that have weakened due

:06:01.:06:03.

But certainly, what we can definitely say is that

:06:04.:06:09.

the associated rainfall in them, there we see the effects of climate

:06:10.:06:12.

It's true that with 49.32 inches of rain, Hurricane Harvey is the US

:06:13.:06:21.

Tropical Storm Amelia in 1978 dumped 48 inches and Hurricane Easy

:06:22.:06:33.

And Tropical Storm Claudette in 1979 dropped 45 inches of rain.

:06:34.:06:39.

And none of these would presumably be blamed on climate change.

:06:40.:06:44.

So, we can't say a specific storm now is due to climate change,

:06:45.:06:47.

but we can say, if we look over decades, we'll be able

:06:48.:06:50.

to see that the intensity of the storms is going up.

:06:51.:06:54.

What has caused the storm that brought them so much misery

:06:55.:06:56.

is probably not of much interest to the people in the Caribbean,

:06:57.:06:59.

having to rebuild their homes and lives.

:07:00.:07:01.

In the genesis of storms, science can't offer certainty -

:07:02.:07:04.

just probabilities and trends over time.

:07:05.:07:12.

So how are people in the path of Irma preparing for her arrival?

:07:13.:07:20.

John Freeman is the governor of Turcs and Caicos.

:07:21.:07:22.

Before we came on air I spoke to him via Skype.

:07:23.:07:25.

I started by asking him about his concerns following the devastation

:07:26.:07:28.

suffered by the islands nearby. Absolutely, Kirsty, I mean we've

:07:29.:07:32.

seen what's happened to the British Overseas Territories

:07:33.:07:34.

further to the south, But it's also a cause for making

:07:35.:07:36.

the best preparations we can. As I speak, the winds

:07:37.:07:41.

are getting up pretty strongly. The outer tentacles of Irma reaching

:07:42.:07:43.

us, the palm trees are bending over. What preparations have

:07:44.:07:47.

people been making? Well, we've been preparing

:07:48.:07:55.

for some little while now. But the main things

:07:56.:07:58.

is that we wanted to make sure we did not have people on the island

:07:59.:08:01.

who didn't need to be here, so we've been rushing forward

:08:02.:08:04.

with working with the airlines to get particularly

:08:05.:08:07.

tourists off the island. We have our shelters open

:08:08.:08:09.

and operating for people to go into, particularly those from vulnerable

:08:10.:08:20.

areas, some of whom have also been in any case encouraged to move away

:08:21.:08:23.

from areas where there's going to be flooding, because the sea surge

:08:24.:08:26.

is notably high as it approaches us, We've also ordered the evacuation

:08:27.:08:29.

and secured the evacuation, apart from a few people who didn't

:08:30.:08:32.

want to move, of two islands And you're all moving

:08:33.:08:36.

to higher ground? I understand the storm surge

:08:37.:08:38.

could be as much as 20 feet, and as you say,

:08:39.:08:41.

you're very low-lying. The point is, however it comes in,

:08:42.:08:43.

it's going to flood over quite significant areas,

:08:44.:08:50.

and people will move Our shelters obviously have moved

:08:51.:08:52.

up into higher ground. And some people don't

:08:53.:08:58.

always want to move, but we are encouraging

:08:59.:09:00.

them to do so. We've been chasing around this

:09:01.:09:03.

morning trying still to get people in and effectively,

:09:04.:09:05.

we are beginning to close down now on the islands, saying to everyone,

:09:06.:09:08.

get off the streets, don't drive around any more,

:09:09.:09:10.

prepare yourselves So finally, tell me,

:09:11.:09:12.

what is the atmosphere I think people genuinely

:09:13.:09:16.

are very nervous. There is a strong sense

:09:17.:09:21.

of pulling together, but there People here know what

:09:22.:09:25.

hurricanes can do. They have seen what's been happening

:09:26.:09:32.

in the Leeward Islands. So of course people are rightly

:09:33.:09:35.

and understandably frightened. But we have to be

:09:36.:09:39.

frightened but purposeful. Dr Freeman, thank

:09:40.:09:42.

you very much indeed. David Davis, the UK's Brexit

:09:43.:09:44.

negotiator, has been taking As the second reading

:09:45.:09:50.

of the EU Withdrawal Bill began in Westminster,

:09:51.:09:56.

it emerged that Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European

:09:57.:09:58.

Parliament, had questioned both his stability and his

:09:59.:10:00.

accountability at a meeting For good measure, Mr Juncker today

:10:01.:10:02.

added that he believed the Brexit Mr Davis' counterpart,

:10:03.:10:10.

Michel Barnier, also expressed his frustration,

:10:11.:10:13.

warning he thinks the talks over the UK's exit bill

:10:14.:10:15.

are going backwards and branding Britain's proposals on the Irish

:10:16.:10:17.

border as unacceptable. Some believe such language

:10:18.:10:24.

from Europe's top two is more than boisterous positioning,

:10:25.:10:28.

and a sign that Brussels is genuinely losing patience -

:10:29.:10:32.

boding badly, you might think, Here's our political

:10:33.:10:34.

editor Nick Watt. The seasons, they are

:10:35.:10:50.

a-changing, and changing at a faster pace than our

:10:51.:10:52.

politics. As autumn descends on us, the first

:10:53.:10:56.

deadline in the Brexit talks hoves into view at the end of next

:10:57.:10:59.

month, and Brussels is beginning to TRANSLATION: I've been very

:11:00.:11:02.

disappointed by the UK position, as expressed last week,

:11:03.:11:09.

because it seems to be backtracking on the original commitment of the UK

:11:10.:11:20.

to honour its international commitments, including

:11:21.:11:23.

the commitments post-Brexit. His boss is none too

:11:24.:11:25.

happy, either, as these minutes from a meeting

:11:26.:11:27.

in July make clear. Mr Juncker expresses concern

:11:28.:11:33.

about the question of the stability and accountability of the UK

:11:34.:11:36.

negotiator and his apparent lack of involvement, which risks

:11:37.:11:39.

jeopardising the success of the Those barbed remarks were met

:11:40.:11:41.

with short shrift in It sounds to me like a kind

:11:42.:11:48.

of bar-room annoyance, a few drinks and away you go,

:11:49.:11:57.

you get a bit annoyed. Over here at the Brexiter

:11:58.:12:02.

department, they're brushing off the fuselage

:12:03.:12:04.

from Brussels. One senior figure told me that

:12:05.:12:11.

David Davis would only be worried if he were being

:12:12.:12:13.

portrayed as a pussycat. Across the Channel,

:12:14.:12:20.

Michel Barnier is in a different mood -

:12:21.:12:22.

is so frustrated with the Brexit secretary that EU's chief negotiator

:12:23.:12:31.

is prepared to put a question mark over the entire talks

:12:32.:12:36.

by feeling next month that insufficient progress has been made.

:12:37.:12:39.

Some people in Britain believe still we can

:12:40.:12:41.

never set every thing at the

:12:42.:12:42.

same time together and make a conclusion until March 2019.

:12:43.:12:45.

But in the negotiations about a free-trade

:12:46.:12:46.

We literally have to settle if it should be a very good, constructive

:12:47.:12:53.

relationship in the future, it needs much more

:12:54.:12:55.

time, as we know come of another trade negotiations.

:12:56.:12:58.

So what exactly is David Davis's game?

:12:59.:12:59.

I've just tendered my resignation from Parliament to the

:13:00.:13:03.

That will trigger a process which will lead to a by-election.

:13:04.:13:10.

The Brexit Secretary has always been something of a

:13:11.:13:12.

subversive figure who has made a career out of challenging

:13:13.:13:15.

authority, and that's exactly what he's doing now.

:13:16.:13:19.

David Davis believes he is successfully undermining the central

:13:20.:13:22.

tenet of Michel Barnier's negotiating strategy, which is that

:13:23.:13:28.

the UK cannot discuss its future trading relationship with the EU

:13:29.:13:31.

until it has cleared up the terms of its departure.

:13:32.:13:36.

David has managed to drop back into the ring, play

:13:37.:13:40.

them at their own game, which is, "But you keep asking about Ireland

:13:41.:13:43.

and the borders and the trade arrangements - we can't settle any

:13:44.:13:46.

of that until we settle the trade arrangements.

:13:47.:13:50.

"So we can't discuss anything - let's get to the trade

:13:51.:13:53.

arrangements and then we will know what we can

:13:54.:13:55.

do about the border in Northern Ireland."

:13:56.:13:56.

And that final bit in the last week has been the big

:13:57.:13:59.

expose to the nonsense of we can settle this come about all

:14:00.:14:02.

And then there is the question of Germany's role after its

:14:03.:14:11.

David Davis dismisses Michel Barnier's October

:14:12.:14:17.

deadline for an assessment of the talks, on the grounds that just one

:14:18.:14:20.

date matters - the formation of the new German government, probably

:14:21.:14:23.

Once she has got her domestics in order,

:14:24.:14:31.

she re-enters the ring, and it is down

:14:32.:14:33.

She will say, I'm not leading this, but we all know that

:14:34.:14:39.

what Germany wants here, Germany

:14:40.:14:41.

will get, in the European Union context.

:14:42.:14:46.

Angela Merkel I know very well is very much for this strategy

:14:47.:14:53.

and she was one of the people behind this strategy.

:14:54.:14:59.

She will stay Chancellor and will not change her

:15:00.:15:01.

When autumn turns to winter, Britain hopes

:15:02.:15:11.

for a change of heart, but the current message from Berlin

:15:12.:15:13.

never compromise on fundamental rules of the EU.

:15:14.:15:22.

I should, of course, just say that Jean-Claude Juncker is the President

:15:23.:15:36.

of the commission. Nick, the Brexit secretary

:15:37.:15:37.

was in the Commons today for the second reading

:15:38.:15:39.

of the EU Withdrawal Bill, but the Government has been facing

:15:40.:15:42.

another challenge on Brexit That's right. Pressure also from

:15:43.:15:47.

Eurosceptic MPs who began circulating a letter saying that the

:15:48.:15:52.

transition period, immediately after we leave the EU, should not be used

:15:53.:15:59.

to create a soft Brexit. This comes as there is a debate in the cabinet

:16:00.:16:02.

about how to go about that transition. David Davis said in the

:16:03.:16:06.

Commons today that that should be close to EU membership, but the

:16:07.:16:09.

details and the timing of that transition have not been worked out

:16:10.:16:15.

in Cabinet, and there are Cabinet minister allies who fear that the

:16:16.:16:18.

Prime Minister is listening very carefully to those Eurosceptic MPs

:16:19.:16:23.

who want that transition not to look like EU membership but to be as far

:16:24.:16:28.

away from EU membership as possible. But I spoke to a Remain member of

:16:29.:16:32.

the Cabinet who said that the Prime Minister has agreed to their

:16:33.:16:36.

phrasing - there should be no cliff edge Brexit which means when we

:16:37.:16:39.

leave, we barely noticed. We noticed it when we come out of the

:16:40.:16:44.

transition. And this was before they went into the Commons today? Yes,

:16:45.:16:51.

David Davis, whilst he was taking the questions, he said all but. And

:16:52.:16:56.

of course, it's not necessarily just trouble from the right, it is from

:16:57.:17:00.

the left is well? We have a big moment with Keir Starmer Stena

:17:01.:17:04.

Shadow Brexit secretary a few weeks ago, who said that the UK should be

:17:05.:17:09.

within the single market. And then in an interview in the Financial

:17:10.:17:13.

Times today, he talked about how that relationship with a customs

:17:14.:17:16.

union could continue after the transition period. Trustingly,

:17:17.:17:22.

silence from Jeremy Corbyn and a number of Brexit Labour MPs are

:17:23.:17:27.

saying that they will not go along with its. What is interesting is

:17:28.:17:31.

that the Labour position is very similar to the EU view on how a

:17:32.:17:35.

transition should be, which is basically membership minus the

:17:36.:17:41.

votes. And as you saw, I interviewed that Bertrand CDU MEP from Germany,

:17:42.:17:48.

close to Angela Merkel, and he said to me, he describes the Labour

:17:49.:17:51.

approach as a good paper. Interesting to see how that goes

:17:52.:17:59.

down. Indeed. Hilary Benn is a Labour MP, former Shadow Foreign

:18:00.:18:05.

Secretary and chair of the Brexit select committee. He campaigned for

:18:06.:18:08.

Remain. Charlie Elphicke voted Remain but has since come a member

:18:09.:18:15.

of the Tory European Research Group, which is believed to have been

:18:16.:18:22.

behind today's letter. Charlie Elphicke, did you put your name to

:18:23.:18:26.

that letter? It was not for me to decide but I thought the most

:18:27.:18:30.

important thing about it, it was not aimed at the Government public was

:18:31.:18:33.

aimed at the Labour Party, who have shifted their position dramatically

:18:34.:18:37.

since the election. They stood on a manifesto of leaving the single

:18:38.:18:40.

market and the customs union and now they're talking about a transition

:18:41.:18:45.

period. But the European Research Group, behind the latter, suggested

:18:46.:18:49.

you for tonight's programme, and they are in favour of a hard Brexit.

:18:50.:18:55.

It is not to do with Labour, it is to do with your concerns about

:18:56.:18:59.

people like Philip Hammond? I don't accept that at all. Any fermentation

:19:00.:19:05.

period needs to be over by the time of the next general election, and

:19:06.:19:11.

then we can move on as a country. -- any implementation period. That is

:19:12.:19:15.

different from the Labour position, which is a transition without any

:19:16.:19:20.

end date at all. So it would be a defined transition period beyond

:19:21.:19:25.

which there is no customs union? We have a clear instruction from the

:19:26.:19:30.

British people to end uncontrolled immigration from the European Union.

:19:31.:19:33.

That means leaving the single market. We want to be able to strike

:19:34.:19:37.

trade deals around the world, and our membership of the customs union

:19:38.:19:43.

is clearly not compatible with that. Let's just bring Hilary Benn. This

:19:44.:19:47.

letter was directed at you? Well, the Conservative Party is having its

:19:48.:19:51.

own arguments and difficulties. I think the real problem the

:19:52.:19:55.

Government has got, apart from the very strong criticism of the EU

:19:56.:20:03.

Withdrawal Bill which we saw today, is, they are having to bring their

:20:04.:20:07.

Brexiteers along and make them realise a fundamental truth - it

:20:08.:20:12.

will not be possible to negotiate this all singing, all dancing

:20:13.:20:17.

bespoke trade and market access agreement in the 10.5 months that

:20:18.:20:22.

we've got left. Therefore we will HAVE to have transitional

:20:23.:20:24.

arrangements. Nobody is suggesting that there won't be. Well, there's

:20:25.:20:31.

been a long argument within the Conservative Party about whether

:20:32.:20:36.

there should be, and we've wasted so much time over the 15 months since

:20:37.:20:40.

the referendum result getting to the point where what is absolutely

:20:41.:20:45.

obvious, namely, there WILL have to be transitional arrangements, is

:20:46.:20:49.

finally being recognised, but it's a difficult message for some

:20:50.:20:52.

conservatives to swallow. Is it not Labour which is actually undermining

:20:53.:20:59.

Brexit, listening to Keir Starmer? Absolutely not. We say very clearly

:21:00.:21:04.

in our manifesto, we accept the outcome of the referendum, we voted

:21:05.:21:08.

in favour of the Article 50 legislation, Tanya will leave the

:21:09.:21:11.

European Union at the end of March 2019. The question now is not

:21:12.:21:16.

whether we are leaving, the question is, what kind of relationship we're

:21:17.:21:19.

going to have with the European Union after we've left? Tonight the

:21:20.:21:25.

boss of Jaguar Land Rover said that any prospect of leaving without a

:21:26.:21:28.

transition would be a disaster. And that is the view expressed in many,

:21:29.:21:33.

many people in business. And during that time, if we can see minimal

:21:34.:21:39.

change after March 2019, it is going to mean staying in the customs union

:21:40.:21:43.

and the single market until the final deal is negotiated. Keir

:21:44.:21:48.

Starmer is saying, remain in a customs union within the single

:21:49.:21:51.

market without that is what he said in his article for the transition.

:21:52.:21:55.

Out of the question? What you're hearing is the sound of Labour

:21:56.:21:59.

figures who want to remain in the European Union by stealth - this is

:22:00.:22:03.

hotel California, you can check out but you can never leave. We are

:22:04.:22:08.

saying we should get on and have a clear sense of direction that we're

:22:09.:22:11.

going to leave the European Union by the time of the next general

:22:12.:22:16.

election. So, what we had over the last 48 hours is, we've had sight of

:22:17.:22:22.

one of the plans the Government has for immigration, and the thing about

:22:23.:22:25.

that is, Hilary Benn, there's been a deafening silence from Labour on

:22:26.:22:31.

those plans, which, of course, the Government says is just one of a

:22:32.:22:34.

number of solutions, and people in the hospitality industry are up in

:22:35.:22:40.

arms - Labour has not been up in arms, Labour has not been vocal? I

:22:41.:22:45.

accept that one of the messages from the referendum result was that

:22:46.:22:47.

people were concerned about free movement, and when we leave the

:22:48.:22:51.

European Union, free movement will come to an end and we will have to

:22:52.:22:54.

agree what our immigration policy is going to... Hang on... The point

:22:55.:23:05.

which Yvette Cooper made was this - if the Government wants to have a

:23:06.:23:08.

conversation about what future immigration policy is going to be

:23:09.:23:14.

like a, don't have leaked drafts of papers appearing, start the debate

:23:15.:23:17.

about how we're going to get the people that we need to keep the

:23:18.:23:23.

British economy strong. And that's why we need to have a reasonable

:23:24.:23:30.

transition. The very basic point is, you have to have something to

:23:31.:23:34.

implement in order to have an in ferment patient period. At the

:23:35.:23:37.

moment you're not going to conclude the negotiations in the time. Jeremy

:23:38.:23:46.

Corbyn has said absolutely nothing, he's being completely absent from

:23:47.:23:51.

this conversation. It's a case, isn't it, that his hero, your

:23:52.:23:59.

father, who abhorred Europe as a capitalist plot, is exactly what

:24:00.:24:06.

Jeremy Corbyn thinks - you don't disagree with that? Well, the

:24:07.:24:11.

referendum results show that the nation is split down the middle. The

:24:12.:24:17.

challenge for us is, we are leaving. Isn't challenge for Jeremy Corbyn to

:24:18.:24:21.

step up to the plate? We have to decide what kind of future

:24:22.:24:23.

immigration policy we are going to have and what it is possible to

:24:24.:24:27.

negotiate with the European Union so that we don't end up damaging our

:24:28.:24:31.

economic prospects, because a lot rests on this. As your report

:24:32.:24:36.

demonstrated, we are six months into the negotiation, there hasn't been

:24:37.:24:40.

agreement reached. But if there hasn't been agreement reached, you

:24:41.:24:46.

with the the Labour leader, he has been absolutely nowhere in this

:24:47.:24:48.

conversation, because his heart is not in it. No, because Keir Starmer

:24:49.:24:55.

set out on behalf of the shadow cabinet, including Jeremy Corbyn,

:24:56.:25:01.

what our policy is and what transitional arrangements should

:25:02.:25:04.

look like. And that is where the Government is going to have to end

:25:05.:25:07.

up, whether Brexiteers like it or not.

:25:08.:25:15.

"A thoroughly modern bigot" - that was just one epithet used today

:25:16.:25:18.

to describe Tory backbencher Jacob Rees-Mogg after he told

:25:19.:25:20.

Good Morning Britain yesterday that he was opposed to abortion

:25:21.:25:22.

in all circumstances, including rape and incest.

:25:23.:25:24.

The MP, who was this week named by activists as the favourite

:25:25.:25:27.

to take over from Theresa May in a straw poll by Conservative

:25:28.:25:30.

Home, said life begins at the point of conception.

:25:31.:25:32.

He also says that, as a Catholic, he disagrees

:25:33.:25:34.

Life is sacrosanct and begins at the point of conception.

:25:35.:25:38.

Say you were Prime Minister, and a woman is raped

:25:39.:25:44.

by a family member, right, you would say she had absolutely no

:25:45.:25:49.

No, she would have a right under UK law.

:25:50.:25:59.

But you wouldn't agree with that right?

:26:00.:26:00.

No, but what's your personal opinion?

:26:01.:26:04.

My personal opinion is that life begins at the point

:26:05.:26:06.

of conception, and abortion is morally indefensible.

:26:07.:26:08.

Well, I wouldn't, because that wouldn't be the law of the land.

:26:09.:26:12.

So, if someone's deeply-held religious views conflict

:26:13.:26:15.

with secular values, should that be a barrier

:26:16.:26:17.

And might that depend on the importance of religion

:26:18.:26:20.

This week, in a survey for the National Centre

:26:21.:26:28.

for Social Research, for almost the first time, more

:26:29.:26:30.

53% - describe themselves as having no religion.

:26:31.:26:34.

I'm joined by the DUP MP Iain Paisley Junior,

:26:35.:26:36.

Rose Hudson-Wilkin, who is Chaplain to the Speaker of the House

:26:37.:26:38.

of Commons, and by the Guardian columnist Polly Toynbee.

:26:39.:26:42.

First of all, Rose Hudson-Wilkin, do you think that Jacob Rees-Mogg, as a

:26:43.:26:56.

religious man, was in than to say what he said he should not be barred

:26:57.:26:59.

from high office? We live in a liberal democracy. Freedom of

:27:00.:27:04.

speech, freedom of conscience, and so it is important for anyone in any

:27:05.:27:07.

particular role to be able to express that this is what they feel

:27:08.:27:11.

or this is what they believe. I do not believe that it should bar them

:27:12.:27:18.

from leadership of any kind. But what about if the consensus goes the

:27:19.:27:22.

other way, does that make a difference? What do you mean. If the

:27:23.:27:31.

consensus, for example, is views about incest and rape, that

:27:32.:27:36.

particular position, is a view which is not necessarily held by the

:27:37.:27:40.

majority of the population - does that matter? Well, the population

:27:41.:27:43.

will soon do something about that. They will say, I'm sorry, we don't

:27:44.:27:49.

want to have this person, but I'm talking specifically about religious

:27:50.:27:53.

views, which should not be apart from leadership, any kind of

:27:54.:28:00.

leadership. It is a form of discrimination, isn't it, to say

:28:01.:28:04.

that somebody who holds deep religious views is not suitable to

:28:05.:28:12.

hold high office? Yes, he wouldn't make windows into men's souls, what

:28:13.:28:16.

people believe is their own business - what matters is there policies and

:28:17.:28:21.

their politics. And often those two get in the way. If you wanted to

:28:22.:28:25.

advocate restoring the kind of abortion restrictions that he wants,

:28:26.:28:31.

you probably would not get elected. There is nothing to stop him

:28:32.:28:34.

standing for office. The Conservative Party might well be mad

:28:35.:28:37.

enough to select him. He has made it clear of course that that would not

:28:38.:28:41.

be a platform on which he would stand, he's made that clear. It's a

:28:42.:28:45.

personal, deeply held view. In this day and age, is that acceptable or

:28:46.:28:49.

not? We live in a democracy, presumably all views, whatever their

:28:50.:28:54.

stripe or religion, should be acceptable as long as they are not

:28:55.:28:58.

hate speak or violence or whatever? I think gay people might take it is

:28:59.:29:03.

hate speak to say that they should not be allowed to get married and do

:29:04.:29:07.

various things. But I agree with Rose, it's up to the electric to

:29:08.:29:11.

decide who they would want to vote for. I think he wouldn't have a hope

:29:12.:29:16.

in hell, I hope not, partly because those views are part of a much wider

:29:17.:29:20.

package of where he stands. He is on the very, very far right. People

:29:21.:29:24.

think he's a rather charming, facetious man who is full of jokes

:29:25.:29:29.

and... But in fact he's very far right, he's a climate change denier,

:29:30.:29:33.

he has written an article in the Telegraph the other day...

:29:34.:29:40.

We know what happened to Tim Farron after the election. He said he felt

:29:41.:29:47.

that to be a committed Christian and leader of the party was impossible.

:29:48.:29:51.

I'm sorry he came to that conclusion, and I'm sorry about the

:29:52.:29:57.

pressure that was placed upon him, but the reality is that one's face

:29:58.:30:03.

is not a coat that we occasionally put on depending on what the weather

:30:04.:30:09.

is like. It is who you are. So to ask someone to leave their faith at

:30:10.:30:14.

the door, it is just not right. And we need to guard against a level of

:30:15.:30:18.

intolerance that we are beginning to see in this country in relation to

:30:19.:30:24.

people's face. That is interesting, isn't it? About Tim Farron, it is he

:30:25.:30:39.

was the leader of the party, and he was very out of kilter with the

:30:40.:30:42.

sentiment of his own party and the people he was trying to appeal to

:30:43.:30:49.

buy being anti-gay. I think if you are in the Conservative Party, a lot

:30:50.:30:53.

of Conservative Party members who are elder and more socially

:30:54.:30:57.

conservative might well support you... He doesn't believe in gay

:30:58.:31:01.

marriage. That is different from being anti-gay. I think a lot of gay

:31:02.:31:05.

people would say there is no difference, there is a route

:31:06.:31:08.

prejudice expressing itself in one particular way. Is there something

:31:09.:31:14.

about Christianity that we feel we can take a pop at people with deep

:31:15.:31:17.

religious faith? That at the moment is what we are seeing in this

:31:18.:31:21.

country. I'm not saying you are doing that. But we are seeing a

:31:22.:31:26.

level of intolerance that says Christianity, let's kick them into

:31:27.:31:29.

touch, or kick them out of the public space, and actually, I

:31:30.:31:35.

applied for this role as chaplain to the Speaker of the House of Commons

:31:36.:31:39.

because I actually believe that faith ought to be in the public

:31:40.:31:44.

square. It is who we are. And if you look at our history and where we are

:31:45.:31:48.

coming from in this country, the Christian faith contributed lots of

:31:49.:31:55.

positives. And I think for us to throw it away because there are some

:31:56.:32:02.

raving secularists, I think we are barking up the wrong tree. And you

:32:03.:32:09.

have to be a raving secularist to say that there are bishops sitting

:32:10.:32:16.

in the House of Lords... I have to stop you there. We were expecting to

:32:17.:32:21.

have been joined by the DUP MP Ian Paisley Junior, but while we have

:32:22.:32:24.

been on air, he has pulled out following a story about him on the

:32:25.:32:28.

front of tomorrow's Daily Telegraph which alleges that he accepted

:32:29.:32:33.

holidays worth ?100,000 from a country years now attempting to

:32:34.:32:38.

secure a post Brexit trade deal with.

:32:39.:32:40.

He's everybody's favourite Peruvian, if you don't

:32:41.:32:41.

Mario Testino is the fashion photographer who's as well known

:32:42.:32:45.

He's commanded the covers of the glossies as surely

:32:46.:32:48.

as the women he's immortalised - fashion royalty including Kate Moss,

:32:49.:32:51.

and real royalty, most notably the late Diana,

:32:52.:32:53.

But Testino's new passion is a museum he's created in Lima

:32:54.:32:58.

to showcase artistic talent from his homeland.

:32:59.:32:59.

To help pay for it, he's selling his private art collection,

:33:00.:33:02.

including works by Cindy Sherman and Wolfgang Tilmans,

:33:03.:33:04.

He's been giving our culture editor Stephen Smith

:33:05.:33:09.

an exclusive tour of his favourite things.

:33:10.:33:21.

A view of the maestro photographer as you've never seen him before.

:33:22.:33:26.

And I lived with this above my bed for a long time.

:33:27.:33:31.

Of course, I am a decorator at heart, hence the

:33:32.:33:36.

But the interesting thing of these photographs is that this

:33:37.:33:41.

material comes from Morocco, this comes from Los Angeles,

:33:42.:33:43.

this comes from Naples, this comes from Berlin,

:33:44.:33:45.

And this comes from Croydon, of course.

:33:46.:33:57.

I mean, we mustn't forget that Kate belongs to a new time

:33:58.:34:03.

of this country as well, because I remember back

:34:04.:34:05.

when I arrived, people didn't mix that much.

:34:06.:34:07.

And Kate belongs to the generation of the New England.

:34:08.:34:16.

Mario Testino is parting with the artworks he's collected.

:34:17.:34:19.

They're going under the hammer at Sotheby's to raise money

:34:20.:34:22.

for his own museum back home in Lima, which promotes

:34:23.:34:24.

But in a funny way, I'm enjoying much more the museum and what I can

:34:25.:34:35.

do to help my community and participate, because I'm getting

:34:36.:34:37.

older, and staying with the youth is important, it's exciting.

:34:38.:34:40.

And through the museum, we can expose younger

:34:41.:34:42.

And I want to expand, and I want to expand

:34:43.:34:51.

the education programme, I want to expand the

:34:52.:34:53.

I almost want to expand it to the world.

:34:54.:35:00.

Mario Testino is in demand at least as much as the supermodels

:35:01.:35:03.

She looks as though she has a square meal now and again.

:35:04.:35:11.

But what does Testino say about super skinny

:35:12.:35:13.

We would have to change the age of the girls,

:35:14.:35:19.

which I think that our business has become much more

:35:20.:35:22.

I photograph women, girls last so long, you know?

:35:23.:35:28.

Kate Moss, I'm still photographing her, I'm

:35:29.:35:30.

The diet, the exercise, the way we are doing it has changed.

:35:31.:35:34.

But then designers also would have to probably change a little bit how

:35:35.:35:37.

they make their clothes, because often, you can't put them

:35:38.:35:40.

It's like they don't fit if you're not of a certain size.

:35:41.:35:49.

Having learned his trade and made his name in Britain,

:35:50.:35:51.

Testino says he's been astonished to photograph its royal family.

:35:52.:35:54.

Perhaps nobody made Harry's mother look more relaxed,

:35:55.:35:58.

vivacious, then Testino, whose images of Diana

:35:59.:35:59.

And I think that the love came back with those photographs,

:36:00.:36:14.

because then the British people knew me, and they are, you know,

:36:15.:36:17.

And the good thing is that they can never take them away.

:36:18.:36:26.

I mean, I almost want to cry when I talk about it,

:36:27.:36:29.

because it's emotional, you know, and I don't like to talk

:36:30.:36:32.

about these things because I think I am a photographer.

:36:33.:36:35.

I get asked to come and do an assignment.

:36:36.:36:42.

You know, she has her children, her children have to decide everything.

:36:43.:36:47.

I like to be respectful, but of course it's an amazing person

:36:48.:36:50.

that I've been given to have been the one to have documented and made

:36:51.:36:53.

it like the way that people remember her.

:36:54.:37:00.

If you fancy yourself a budding Testino, but you can't use

:37:01.:37:02.

He can't use a camera either, it turns out.

:37:03.:37:08.

Useless in the kitchen, useless with cameras.

:37:09.:37:12.

Even with the autofocus camera, my assistants sometimes have to take

:37:13.:37:25.

the thing so that it doesn't move around from out of focus.

:37:26.:37:29.

I mean, I'm like, I'm just incapable.

:37:30.:37:31.

But I know when something looks good or not, and how

:37:32.:37:34.

Have you tried to do quite outrageous things with your shoots

:37:35.:37:49.

and have the client say, no, it's too much?

:37:50.:37:51.

They're all naked, they're all on fire.

:37:52.:37:55.

We're selling clothes, it's something I've heard a lot.

:37:56.:37:59.

I'm often taking people's clothes off.

:38:00.:38:03.

Not everybody's made well, you know, and when they are,

:38:04.:38:09.

Well, we are, luckily, but not everyone is.

:38:10.:38:12.

Mario Testino. Just before we go, tomorrow morning's front pages. The

:38:13.:38:34.

Telegraph, the story about Ian Paisley Junior, the MP, the 100,000

:38:35.:38:40.

gift and the Brexit radio, that is Sri Lanka, Prattley, that is the

:38:41.:38:45.

allegation. The Financial Times, may's Brexit strategy hit by

:38:46.:38:52.

Juncker. And a picture of Prince George looking nervous before his

:38:53.:38:55.

first day at school in the Times, Minister in firing line over MPs'

:38:56.:39:03.

Brexit letter. And in the Daily Mail, as Huw insults the British

:39:04.:39:05.

people yet again, don't treat us with contempt.

:39:06.:39:08.

We leave you with good news for fans of Jurgen Otto,

:39:09.:39:11.

Mr Otto's mission in life is to capture the mating dance

:39:12.:39:15.

of obscure species of Australian peacock spider on film

:39:16.:39:17.

Of course it's not quite as good as his masterpiece,

:39:18.:39:24.

which we leave you with - the legendary Maratus Speciosus.

:39:25.:39:26.

Hello. Low pressure is firmly in charge of our weather for Friday,

:39:27.:40:22.

meaning a windy day for the UK competitor Thursday, and plenty of

:40:23.:40:26.

showers around for parts of southern England, Wales and into East Anglia.

:40:27.:40:29.

Spells of rain,

:40:30.:40:30.

As Hurricane Irma hits the Turks and Caicos, Kirsty Wark speaks to their governor. Plus, will the Germans fix Brexit for us? Do politics and religion mix? And a chat with photographer Mario Testino.