23/10/2017 Newsnight


23/10/2017

With Evan Davis. How should returning British IS fighters be dealt with? Plus the Jared O'Mara row, how AirBnB affects UK housing and Lady Trumpington reflects on her career.


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Transcript


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So-called Islamic State was driven from its own capital last week.

:00:00.:00:07.

But hundreds of Brits had gone out to fight with them,

:00:08.:00:10.

and so hundreds of Brits may now choose to return.

:00:11.:00:14.

What sort of welcome should we offer them?

:00:15.:00:18.

One minister talked of the need to kill them, some want

:00:19.:00:21.

the British fighters kept out, some want them to be

:00:22.:00:24.

We'll ask if we can distinguish between the dangerous

:00:25.:00:31.

The great Airbnb debate - it's created a market in tourist

:00:32.:00:38.

lets for spare rooms, but has it created a deregulated

:00:39.:00:40.

So there are wards in Westminster where one in ten properties are

:00:41.:00:46.

permanently in the short-let sector and that's not good.

:00:47.:00:52.

This Labour MP has resigned a post on the Commons equalites committee

:00:53.:00:57.

for stupid comments he made in his early 20s.

:00:58.:00:59.

Should we forgive errors made 15 years ago?

:01:00.:01:02.

Will anybody make it into public office if we don't?

:01:03.:01:07.

And as Lady Trumpington says farewell to the Lords,

:01:08.:01:14.

we ask her how she dealt with sexual harrassment in her day.

:01:15.:01:17.

I think you curse them and it's quite possible to slap their face,

:01:18.:01:24.

We don't know how many people have left Britain to fight

:01:25.:01:40.

with so-called Islamic State over the last few years.

:01:41.:01:43.

There is talk of 850 of whom half may have already come back,

:01:44.:01:46.

That would leave hundreds still out there.

:01:47.:01:48.

But if we don't really know how many, we can't know all their names.

:01:49.:01:53.

And with Isis now pushed out of its own self-declared

:01:54.:01:55.

capital city, Raqqa, we don't know where

:01:56.:01:58.

the remaining ones are, or what they are currently

:01:59.:02:00.

The only thing we do know is that we need some approach

:02:01.:02:04.

One idea would be to ease them back into mainstream society.

:02:05.:02:10.

But one government minister, Rory Stewart, said yesterday that

:02:11.:02:12.

in most cases, they'll need to be killed.

:02:13.:02:14.

He's clarified that he meant that they would fight

:02:15.:02:17.

to the death, not that we should illegally assassinate them.

:02:18.:02:20.

But Mr Stewart has prompted quite a debate.

:02:21.:02:23.

Our diplomatic editor Mark Urban has been looking at it.

:02:24.:02:32.

In the rubble of the self-proclaimed caliphate live the corpses

:02:33.:02:37.

Some infamous figures like Sally Jones were reportedly

:02:38.:02:46.

killed in the fight for Raqqa, but the fate of many is unknowable,

:02:47.:02:58.

so in terms of the IS group, how many UK jihadists joined?

:02:59.:03:01.

More than 800 tasted life in Syria and Iraq

:03:02.:03:03.

with various groups, and many died, a feat

:03:04.:03:08.

with various groups, and many died, a fate

:03:09.:03:10.

which apparently the Government wishes would befall them all.

:03:11.:03:12.

And we have to make sure that if they ever do return from Iraq

:03:13.:03:15.

and Syria they do not pose a future threat to our national security,

:03:16.:03:18.

but they have made their choice - they have chosen to fight

:03:19.:03:21.

for an organisation that uses terror and the murder of civilians

:03:22.:03:24.

How many are still with IS, that's very hard to know,

:03:25.:03:33.

Figures compiled by the BBC suggest that of the 800 plus

:03:34.:03:38.

who went out, at least 74 are believed to have died.

:03:39.:03:42.

Around 400 are thought to have returned home,

:03:43.:03:47.

with a few dozen of them convicted, but hundreds

:03:48.:03:49.

The majority of the foreign fighters, and we will come to find

:03:50.:03:57.

this out in the days ahead as we continue to work

:03:58.:04:01.

through and clear Raqqa, but the majority of them, we

:04:02.:04:03.

assess, were killed in the battle at Raqqa.

:04:04.:04:08.

Raqqa, as an example, was a place where Isis could freely plot,

:04:09.:04:12.

organise, resource, launch and export their terror.

:04:13.:04:16.

They can't do that any more, and there are so few places now.

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As a matter of fact, 95% of the territory that

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Isis once held is now underneath partner controls.

:04:26.:04:28.

Now the caliphate is almost extinguished,

:04:29.:04:33.

There are many possible routes, from Turkey to Iran,

:04:34.:04:39.

How likely are returnees to get back undetected?

:04:40.:04:50.

I think that the UK agencies are probably going to be operating

:04:51.:04:53.

on the presumption that they can't be confident, that they will do

:04:54.:04:56.

their best but there can be no certainty that they are going

:04:57.:05:04.

to identify and detain all those who might merit that.

:05:05.:05:06.

There are difficult judgments for the security service.

:05:07.:05:14.

Since some of them may have realised the folly of

:05:15.:05:18.

their ways, and of course the summer's attacks in the UK didn't

:05:19.:05:23.

involve anyone known to have been in Syria and Iraq -

:05:24.:05:26.

It all adds to the complexity of the task facing MI5.

:05:27.:05:31.

As well as those we are looking at today, risk can also come

:05:32.:05:35.

from returnees from Syria and Iraq, and also the growing pool of over

:05:36.:05:41.

20,000 individuals that we've looked at in the past,

:05:42.:05:43.

MI5 has means of watching the returnees and grading

:05:44.:05:53.

If you look at the individuals who went sort of early on, let's say

:05:54.:06:01.

2011, 2012, the sort of first travellers out there, one could

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argue, or one could believe the stories that they were going out

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there very much to go and, you know, protect the Syrian people.

:06:08.:06:10.

If you're going in 2015 to go join the Islamic

:06:11.:06:14.

State, then you're joining a group that publicly has been decapitating

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aid workers, that has been launching attacks in the West, that has

:06:19.:06:21.

conducted all sorts of heinous activity, and so when you're looking

:06:22.:06:25.

at an individual who has gone out then, you are clearly going to be

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more concerned, than maybe someone who went a lot before.

:06:33.:06:39.

Some of the IS fighters slipped away. They are hunted now but among

:06:40.:06:47.

them, or the ones who have already returned, will long worried the

:06:48.:06:48.

counterterrorist community. Richard Barrett is a former British

:06:49.:06:52.

diplomat and intelligence officer, now a terrorism expert involved

:06:53.:06:54.

in countering extremism. What is your guess as to what

:06:55.:07:07.

proportion of the returnees comeback regretting having gone and what

:07:08.:07:10.

proportion come back fired up with a mission to attack home? It is very

:07:11.:07:21.

hard to assess. About half have come back, so about 400, maybe. That is

:07:22.:07:28.

probably true in Denmark and Sweden. In other countries in the EU it is

:07:29.:07:34.

more like 30%. But EU wide, there has been about 5000 people go and

:07:35.:07:39.

therefore you have 1200 coming back, that is quite a lot of people to

:07:40.:07:44.

deal with. He might think, even if only 1% of the dangers and field

:07:45.:07:48.

with the ideology, if you like, what do you do? Do you lock all of them

:07:49.:07:52.

up or can you tell the difference between the ones who come back ready

:07:53.:07:57.

to just reintegrate into normal life? You have to make that

:07:58.:08:03.

assessment. How do you make that assessment? You have to examine when

:08:04.:08:08.

they went and why they went, because the date it is important. And why

:08:09.:08:12.

they came back and when they came back, because that is also

:08:13.:08:17.

important. If they came back about 2014 when the caliphate was

:08:18.:08:22.

declared, you might say they were disillusioned and disagreed with

:08:23.:08:25.

what was going on and made a mistake. But if they lasted until

:08:26.:08:30.

the fall of Raqqa, they were obviously more committed to the

:08:31.:08:34.

cause. But that doesn't give you the answer either because they may have

:08:35.:08:38.

gone wanting to join the Islamic state, not necessarily to train to

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come back as a domestic terrorist, they are two different things in my

:08:44.:08:47.

view. But having been subject to the ideology, they may come back all

:08:48.:08:50.

fired up, ready to do something stupid here. What do you think our

:08:51.:08:59.

approach should be? The great thing about our country and the great

:09:00.:09:03.

thing about terrorism is that we have this stick to our values and we

:09:04.:09:06.

mustn't let terrorism undermined those values. Therefore, people who

:09:07.:09:11.

comeback must be treated according to the rule of law. Must be treated

:09:12.:09:17.

like any person suspected of criminal activity. There has to be a

:09:18.:09:21.

criminal investigation and during that investigation, what do you do

:09:22.:09:25.

with them? If you put them in prison, is it legal? But if they go

:09:26.:09:34.

in, they might radicalise other people in prison. If you leave them

:09:35.:09:38.

outside, and they do something, people will say, what the hell was

:09:39.:09:46.

going on. The answer is going to be expensive, leaving them out and

:09:47.:09:48.

watching what they are doing. I don't know how many officers it

:09:49.:09:54.

takes to follow one person, but we are talking probably more than we

:09:55.:09:58.

have got? It is enormously resource intensive. This is what all

:09:59.:10:02.

governments in Europe understand and that is why there is little action

:10:03.:10:07.

so far to address this problem of returnees, so hopefully they won't

:10:08.:10:13.

come back. I was going to say, that is the hope. A lot of people are

:10:14.:10:18.

saying it would be better if they have died out there, is that your

:10:19.:10:23.

view? It isn't going to happen, some of them are going to come back, many

:10:24.:10:27.

are back already. What will you do now? You can't escape the problem by

:10:28.:10:34.

the hoping it doesn't care. I suppose you might call it social

:10:35.:10:38.

work, which you intensively coach and look after them, nurture them to

:10:39.:10:44.

a peaceful existence. Does it work, is that more expensive than

:10:45.:10:48.

surveillance? It will work with some, but I don't think it will

:10:49.:10:52.

change the mindset of people, but it will change their behaviour. It is

:10:53.:10:56.

important to disengage them from violent activity and change their

:10:57.:11:02.

views on how society should be. We all have our own view on how society

:11:03.:11:08.

should be and it is only when we impact our fellow citizens with

:11:09.:11:13.

violence, we make a problem. As a former senior intelligence person,

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how useful are the ones who returned, comeback disillusioned, if

:11:18.:11:21.

you like, are they ready to shop their mates, is it how that works?

:11:22.:11:26.

Some may do that and that will be invaluable if they can point out the

:11:27.:11:29.

people who were members of the Islamic state and people like Jihadi

:11:30.:11:36.

John, we want to identify those people quickly because they have

:11:37.:11:40.

committed serious crimes. You don't want them wondering about free.

:11:41.:11:43.

Richard Barrett, thank you very much.

:11:44.:11:47.

The Labour MP Jared O'Mara, who won his Sheffield Hallam back

:11:48.:11:50.

in June by beating Nick Clegg in that very studenty seat,

:11:51.:11:52.

has resigned his place on the Commons Equalities Committee

:11:53.:11:55.

over some comments of his which surfaced today.

:11:56.:11:57.

They'd been left on various internet forums.

:11:58.:12:00.

Apologies for any offence, but I'll give you a taste of the remarks -

:12:01.:12:03.

there was reference to having an orgy with the pop band

:12:04.:12:06.

Girls Aloud, there were comments on fat women and he referred to gays

:12:07.:12:09.

as fudge packers, and driving up the Marmite motorway.

:12:10.:12:13.

As I say, he has apologised and resigned from the Equalties

:12:14.:12:19.

Committee, but here's the thing - these comments were made 15 years

:12:20.:12:22.

Should we really hold him to account now for those views?

:12:23.:12:31.

Or should there be a statute of limitations on speech crimes,

:12:32.:12:35.

trails of which are inevitably left all over the web?

:12:36.:12:38.

It's a problem that the millennials might find cropping up

:12:39.:12:41.

We have asked two political writers to talk this through with us. First

:12:42.:13:00.

on Jarrod O'Mara himself, should he have resigned? Absolutely. No

:13:01.:13:06.

question, he cannot be seen to be taking a qualities issue seriously

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before he has really explained and thought through his previous

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comments. He has apologised for them and they were 15, 13 years ago?

:13:15.:13:22.

Parliament is supposed to hold our trust. It's not just the women and

:13:23.:13:26.

equality is select committee, it isn't just a body to scrutinise

:13:27.:13:31.

bills and talk about law, it represents the body of the British

:13:32.:13:37.

people as we face up to what are very serious issues of

:13:38.:13:40.

discrimination in the world today. It is impossible for us to have

:13:41.:13:44.

faith in that committee while it holds people like Jarrod O'Mara, and

:13:45.:13:50.

people like Philip Davies, the controversial Tory MP. We're not

:13:51.:13:54.

here to discuss Philip Davie is. He's not here to defend himself. Do

:13:55.:13:59.

you agree with it? I don't think he should lose the Labour whip and he

:14:00.:14:08.

shouldn't stand down as an MP. But it's not just any select committee,

:14:09.:14:12.

it is about women and equalities. I am sure we will come back to that in

:14:13.:14:17.

a second, and he was in his early 20s when he made those comments. If

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you are a child, you are an idiot, but at 22, 23, you are an adult.

:14:24.:14:29.

Does this reflect his current personality and views towards

:14:30.:14:32.

homosexuality or women? I don't think we have seen enough to prove

:14:33.:14:38.

they don't. There is a question to answer about his views today based

:14:39.:14:44.

on those comments back then? Until we see otherwise, yes. He's not

:14:45.:14:48.

someone who is known for his great feminism. There are other

:14:49.:14:52.

controversies over him. I don't fundamentally disagree, but Jess

:14:53.:14:58.

Phillips, chair of the women's Parliamentary Labour Party said she

:14:59.:15:02.

talked to him today and she does accept his apology and things he was

:15:03.:15:08.

genuine. She is not known for being a tolerance of misogyny.

:15:09.:15:13.

Tell me what the rules are. What age do we forgive, what age do you start

:15:14.:15:19.

having to take response to the? If he was 17, we would probably forgive

:15:20.:15:25.

his crimes, but 22, do be or not? What are the rules? Set them out

:15:26.:15:29.

because this will come out time and time again. That is the thing. I'm

:15:30.:15:33.

not entirely sure and that is why I think the Jared O'Mara story is

:15:34.:15:36.

interesting and we will look back on it. We have not really had this

:15:37.:15:45.

until now. These young people who grew up on the Internet, became

:15:46.:15:47.

MPs... Have left their trail all over the place. Of course, and if

:15:48.:15:51.

someone said some stupid things at 14-15, I would say that was clear,

:15:52.:15:59.

unless it was quite extreme Nazi stuff, you know, it would have to be

:16:00.:16:03.

really a torrent, and anything from sort of mid-20s on words I think is

:16:04.:16:10.

clear-cut again, but early 20s, I think it is a bit weird,

:16:11.:16:17.

case-by-case basis. Into just both of us as millennial writers who have

:16:18.:16:22.

no problems putting ourselves over the Internet, and there are things

:16:23.:16:26.

in our careers we may disagree about, and something to even be

:16:27.:16:29.

embarrassed about, but as writers I would say that Marie and I both

:16:30.:16:35.

explain our political journeys, we talk about the way in which we have

:16:36.:16:38.

changed our minds and that is quite an important part of being a writer

:16:39.:16:41.

in the public sphere, demonstrating that ability, and my answer to your

:16:42.:16:47.

question, if MPs have embarrassing tales online, what they will have to

:16:48.:16:50.

do in the future is right at the beginning, we are also in an age of

:16:51.:17:01.

transparency, so embrace that, they need to 'fess up up, and that is

:17:02.:17:07.

basically good PR advice, 'fess up before folks find it. If he had

:17:08.:17:10.

said, I had written all this nonsense in the past, all this

:17:11.:17:13.

rubbish, would that have made a difference? If it had not been

:17:14.:17:18.

exposed... I think so, yes, but that being said I would argue that not

:17:19.:17:21.

everyone our rage can remember everything they have posted before,

:17:22.:17:26.

and I know that because I looked at my early Facebook account recently,

:17:27.:17:33.

and was quite higher -- horrify. How can you confess when you don't

:17:34.:17:37.

exactly know what you have posted... We are all delighted that AOL

:17:38.:17:42.

Instant Messenger shut down this week! Your older viewers may not

:17:43.:17:46.

realise this but we have a lot of memories of that, we millennial 's.

:17:47.:17:51.

Talking about redemption for people who have gone out to fight with Isis

:17:52.:17:57.

in Syria. Are we overblowing speech crimes in the great pantheon of our

:17:58.:18:02.

career mistakes? I don't think so. What would that say to women and

:18:03.:18:07.

LGBT people, that this person said this incredibly offensive stuff, not

:18:08.:18:12.

just silly jokes that were on the line, but genuinely offensive stuff?

:18:13.:18:15.

It would send such a message, I think, to say it is sort of fine. So

:18:16.:18:21.

I think him resigning from the committee while remaining as MP and

:18:22.:18:24.

apologising is kind of a decent way to do it. Speech crimes, the problem

:18:25.:18:30.

is in the phrase they are, you said two words, and I think it was about

:18:31.:18:34.

ten. A more open society would be one in which we accuse people less

:18:35.:18:38.

often of speech crimes but we could also have intelligent debate about

:18:39.:18:41.

changing our minds. Thank you very much indeed.

:18:42.:18:47.

Of all the services the internet can provide, Airbnb is perhaps

:18:48.:18:50.

In case you haven't encountered it, it is where people turn their spare

:18:51.:18:56.

rooms into overnight accommodation for tourists.

:18:57.:18:58.

The easy matchmaking between renters and rentees has

:18:59.:19:00.

Not great for hotels, but for everybody else

:19:01.:19:03.

Well, Airbnb has scaled up - from just being a simple way

:19:04.:19:07.

for homeowners to earn a bit of pocket money, to also being

:19:08.:19:14.

a platform for professionals to run money-making property portfolios -

:19:15.:19:16.

and to do so outside the regulations facing hotels.

:19:17.:19:18.

For some neighbours of Airbnb properties, the service

:19:19.:19:20.

We'll debate its merits shortly, but first our technology editor,

:19:21.:19:24.

David Grossman, looks at the Airbnb phenomenon.

:19:25.:19:41.

Like the low-cost airlines before them, short-term letting apps

:19:42.:19:43.

like Airbnb are making travel more affordable for people.

:19:44.:19:45.

They get to stay in interesting places, and as the slogan says,

:19:46.:19:48.

And if property owners can make a few quid too, who's complaining?

:19:49.:20:00.

As we've seen from taxi apps like Uber, the sharing economy isn't

:20:01.:20:05.

In terms of short-term letting apps like Airbnb,

:20:06.:20:09.

the evidence is that it's starting to have a profound impact in some

:20:10.:20:12.

local housing markets, and on the experience

:20:13.:20:13.

Our research shows that it's primarily a London problem,

:20:14.:20:18.

but it's very definitely a growing problem in other large cities,

:20:19.:20:28.

with a tourist interest, so Manchester is seeing a lot

:20:29.:20:30.

of growth, and in Glasgow and Edinburgh we're particularly

:20:31.:20:32.

The London Borough of Westminster is particularly hard-hit,

:20:33.:20:36.

with an estimated 5000 properties taken out of the traditional

:20:37.:20:38.

It is taking homes away from people who might

:20:39.:20:47.

otherwise be living there - on scale.

:20:48.:20:48.

So there are wards in Westminster where one in ten properties

:20:49.:20:52.

are permanently in the short-let sector, and that's not good.

:20:53.:20:55.

To be clear, no one is saying that a property owner shouldn't be

:20:56.:20:58.

able to let a room out, or go away on holiday

:20:59.:21:00.

and let their flat-out - that's all absolutely fine.

:21:01.:21:03.

It's the increasing professionalisation of this

:21:04.:21:04.

This is what a real hotel looks like, regulated to have

:21:05.:21:09.

minimal impact on locals, because - however welcome to a city

:21:10.:21:11.

- short-term visitors don't make great neighbours.

:21:12.:21:17.

It's been going on for couple of years now, and it has got

:21:18.:21:20.

to the point recently where we've wanted to move away from it.

:21:21.:21:28.

This neighbour of a busy short-term-let flat

:21:29.:21:30.

in London doesn't want to be identified

:21:31.:21:32.

because she is frightened of repercussions.

:21:33.:21:33.

You don't know who's around you, you don't know that when you come

:21:34.:21:38.

home at night you're going to get a good night's sleep.

:21:39.:21:43.

It's just irritating when you're just dropping off,

:21:44.:21:47.

to have a sudden reminder, oh, yeah, your neighbours

:21:48.:21:50.

are Airbnb - they're back now, they're going to keep you awake.

:21:51.:21:53.

Often, the first sign of a property moving over to short-term letting

:21:54.:21:56.

is the appearance outside of these - key boxes.

:21:57.:21:59.

Getting complete data from Airbnb is extremely hard,

:22:00.:22:02.

but we've analysed the website to find out how many hosts let out

:22:03.:22:05.

That may be an indication that they're operating as a business.

:22:06.:22:13.

In London, we found 12,428 entire homes run by multi-listing hosts.

:22:14.:22:18.

That's 37.5% of all entire Airbnb homes in the city.

:22:19.:22:21.

London's top ten hosts ran a total of 1634 entire home

:22:22.:22:31.

In Edinburgh we found 1794 entire homes run by multi-listing hosts.

:22:32.:22:38.

That's a third of all Airbnb entire homes in the city.

:22:39.:22:42.

Edinburgh's top ten hosts ran a total of 302 entire home

:22:43.:22:44.

In Bristol, we found 226 entire homes run by multi-listing hosts.

:22:45.:22:52.

That's 30% of all the entire Airbnb homes in the city.

:22:53.:22:59.

Bristol's top ten hosts ran a total of 127 entire home

:23:00.:23:02.

Unlike residential properties, mortgages on holiday lets qualify

:23:03.:23:12.

for mortgage interest tax relief, and the returns can be two

:23:13.:23:15.

or three times as big as conventional letting.

:23:16.:23:18.

So much so that instead of buy to let, people are now setting up

:23:19.:23:21.

hugely lucrative rent to let businesses.

:23:22.:23:24.

It's increasingly common for landlords to rent property out,

:23:25.:23:30.

and find that property is sublet, either with their consent -

:23:31.:23:32.

although perhaps not with their entire understanding -

:23:33.:23:36.

or entirely without their consent, in what you might choose to call

:23:37.:23:43.

a sort of rent arbitrage, in that I pay you the market rent

:23:44.:23:46.

from an ordinary let property on the family market.

:23:47.:23:48.

If I then put it on Airbnb on the holiday let market,

:23:49.:23:51.

for the same period of time, provided I can keep it full,

:23:52.:23:54.

I will get more money from Airbnb and so I can guarantee to pay

:23:55.:23:58.

you a set sum of money and make a profit on the difference.

:23:59.:24:01.

It's possible to construct vast portfolios of property in this way,

:24:02.:24:08.

creating virtual hotels complete with a check-in desk.

:24:09.:24:10.

It's one of the most popular nightspots in the capital.

:24:11.:24:18.

It's where groups of people come for a curry and a night out.

:24:19.:24:21.

And it's also one of the hotspots for Airbnb -

:24:22.:24:23.

there are lots of properties listed around here, many of them run

:24:24.:24:27.

I've checked into one, or at least I've booked it.

:24:28.:24:31.

I've been e-mailed some instructions of how I have to check in.

:24:32.:24:34.

I have to go and pick up the keys from a shop which is,

:24:35.:24:37.

When I got there, the shop - well, it didn't feel

:24:38.:24:42.

More like just a guy sat behind a desk with a big ledger in front

:24:43.:24:48.

of him with all the bookings for different places.

:24:49.:24:50.

My name was on there, he checked my ID, he gave me

:24:51.:24:53.

the keys, he gave me the instructions how to get there.

:24:54.:24:55.

Floor's a bit creaky, but apart from that it

:24:56.:25:12.

In fact, it says in the welcome folder that the entire building -

:25:13.:25:22.

nine flats - are available from the same Airbnb hosts.

:25:23.:25:25.

But whatever this place is, it clearly isn't somebody's home.

:25:26.:25:29.

This place has been kitted out - the whole building has been

:25:30.:25:32.

Looking for evidence of any wrongdoing is very tricky.

:25:33.:25:41.

Since 2015 property owners in Greater London have been legally

:25:42.:25:44.

allowed to short-term let somewhere for a maximum total of 90 days

:25:45.:25:47.

It makes it virtually impossible for us or anyone else,

:25:48.:25:55.

like the local authority, to prove what's going on.

:25:56.:25:59.

The problem is that it's not actually an offence

:26:00.:26:02.

to breach planning control, unless you're told to stop

:26:03.:26:06.

breaching planning control, so they have to be caught and told

:26:07.:26:11.

to stop, and then caught again breaching the being told

:26:12.:26:13.

to stop and carrying on, so you have to catch people twice.

:26:14.:26:17.

Although Airbnb has introduced restrictions on people letting out

:26:18.:26:22.

somewhere in London for more than 90 days, it's a simple matter to list

:26:23.:26:25.

on one of the many other short-term letting sites.

:26:26.:26:28.

It's really difficult to track how these landlords

:26:29.:26:31.

are using the different sites, and so we can't really judge

:26:32.:26:36.

whether they are moving properties around across different platforms,

:26:37.:26:38.

but we know anecdotally that this has been reported,

:26:39.:26:41.

and so it's something that if we had this availability to share the data

:26:42.:26:44.

across the platforms, and they worked together

:26:45.:26:46.

with the GLA, this is something that we would be able to keep

:26:47.:26:49.

Well, I think that the Government needs to accept that local

:26:50.:26:55.

authorities have to have legal powers to act to ensure that

:26:56.:26:57.

when people are letting short lets, that they notified.

:26:58.:26:59.

when people are letting short lets, that they notify.

:27:00.:27:05.

If you have a notification it makes it much more straightforward then

:27:06.:27:08.

for a local authority to be able to monitor, make sure

:27:09.:27:11.

that the law is being upheld - it doesn't stop people letting,

:27:12.:27:14.

Other cities and countries are far further ahead in regulating

:27:15.:27:18.

Airbnb declined our request for an interview, but said

:27:19.:27:21.

they already go far further than any other platform

:27:22.:27:23.

in making sure their listings comply with the law.

:27:24.:27:25.

This may not be much comfort to those trapped

:27:26.:27:28.

on the other side of the wall, or the floor, or the ceiling, from

:27:29.:27:31.

I'm nervous that it's just going to turn into a strange hotel

:27:32.:27:42.

situation, in all the blocks, without any regulation

:27:43.:27:44.

Really, it feels like your block is changing?

:27:45.:27:52.

I am concerned that as we see this go on, if nothing changes,

:27:53.:27:55.

the block will just turn into a hotel.

:27:56.:27:57.

Well, Airbnb have given us a statement.

:27:58.:28:15.

"We are good partners to London and have

:28:16.:28:18.

introduced automated hosting limits to help ensure home sharing is good

:28:19.:28:20.

news for everyone, and that growth is responsible and sustainable.

:28:21.:28:23.

We are pleased to lead our industry on this matter and urge policymakers

:28:24.:28:26.

to ensure other platforms act responsibly in London,

:28:27.:28:28.

It is not just a problem in London, though.

:28:29.:28:31.

Joining us now in the studio are Roddy Campbell

:28:32.:28:33.

from Shared Economy UK, the trade body for the UK's sharing

:28:34.:28:36.

economy, and founder of the website Vrumi which allows householders

:28:37.:28:38.

But in Liverpool we're joined by the Labour councillor

:28:39.:28:46.

Laura, let's start with you. Short lets, what sort of problems do they

:28:47.:28:56.

cause for your? Do you get a lot of complaints as a councillor? It is a

:28:57.:29:00.

recent phenomenon in our city in Liverpool, certainly moving out of

:29:01.:29:03.

the city into the more residential areas, but we have seen summers of

:29:04.:29:07.

absolute mayhem, where residents have had to call the police, naked

:29:08.:29:11.

men running down the street playing football, stag parties and so on

:29:12.:29:14.

going on, and of course in a city with a lot of student residents

:29:15.:29:27.

really do value that quieter time they used to get in the summer,

:29:28.:29:29.

which is now filled with hen and stag parties completely without any

:29:30.:29:32.

regulation. As Europe is just short, we would welcome home sharing that

:29:33.:29:34.

is genuine, but this is undeclared businesses not paying tax -- as

:29:35.:29:38.

Europe is just showed. But the tourists coming in, that kind of

:29:39.:29:42.

behaviour, it could happen in a hotel. If they want to run out and

:29:43.:29:45.

play football naked at night, isn't it the same thing? I wouldn't think

:29:46.:29:49.

so because the hotels would be staffed and this is completely

:29:50.:29:53.

unstaffed and unsupervised, and these are small terraced streets I

:29:54.:29:58.

am talking about, not big country manners or something. Four bedroom

:29:59.:30:03.

terraces with 20 people for the weekend, it creates mayhem for the

:30:04.:30:06.

neighbours and other residents. Roddy Campbell, that is effectively

:30:07.:30:10.

a lot of what is going on location. Businesses setting these up to defy

:30:11.:30:11.

the regulations? I don't know how you make the leap,

:30:12.:30:20.

London is my main area, that is where I operate my business in. Am I

:30:21.:30:28.

allowed to set up a hotel in London where ever I want. They are hotels

:30:29.:30:34.

about stuff? There are plenty of regulations for short-term lets. How

:30:35.:30:38.

those are in force and whether they are enforced is another question.

:30:39.:30:43.

Enforcement issue for you guys, you are the council, it is your job?

:30:44.:30:49.

There are no regulations. We can't enforce anything, there are no

:30:50.:30:56.

regulations. There are minimal regulations in London, but outside

:30:57.:31:00.

of London we don't even have the 90 day restriction. We are asking home

:31:01.:31:04.

sharing sites to share their data with local authorities so we can

:31:05.:31:07.

regulate them and ensure minimum standards and have have a 90 day

:31:08.:31:18.

cap. Sharing the data so nobody can run their business for more than 90

:31:19.:31:23.

days and a 90 day national limit would sort out the professionals?

:31:24.:31:29.

There is a lot of laws on data protection and data sharing. But we

:31:30.:31:33.

can pass a law on that? If they pass a law on that then yes. We can't

:31:34.:31:38.

enforce the rules at the moment because somebody could put 90 days

:31:39.:31:44.

on one site, and 90 days on another. In London, that is illegal and they

:31:45.:31:48.

can be prosecuted for that and after they have been warned by the local

:31:49.:31:52.

authority, they can be fined for that. But the point is, we have to

:31:53.:31:57.

make it easier for the authorities to levy the fine against the rule

:31:58.:32:00.

breakers because they have to be able to catch the rule breakers to

:32:01.:32:07.

levy the fine. It is difficult for them to watch a property for 180

:32:08.:32:11.

days or 91 days. Can I ask about the scale of this? When people are

:32:12.:32:16.

talking about rogue minicab company is, if there are two rogue drivers

:32:17.:32:20.

in the fleet who are not getting their tax and insurance done, it is

:32:21.:32:24.

not a problem. But if there is a thousand, then it is a problem. The

:32:25.:32:29.

numbers went through very fast on your tape, there are 226 properties

:32:30.:32:33.

your tape, there are 226 property job people identified as

:32:34.:32:38.

multi-property operators in Bristol and it was 1600 in London out of 3.3

:32:39.:32:46.

million households. The idea this is a massive business... The buy to let

:32:47.:32:54.

businesses big. Private renting is a huge business and the short term

:32:55.:32:58.

rental is a sliver of that business. Let me put that to Laura. The

:32:59.:33:03.

numbers are relative to the size of Liverpool or London and we talking

:33:04.:33:09.

about a small industry? Absolutely, but it is growing very fast and the

:33:10.:33:12.

complaints are growing fast. We don't know where they are, we have

:33:13.:33:17.

landlord licensing in Liverpool and we work hard to get that across the

:33:18.:33:20.

city so we can regulate the private rented city. -- sector. This is

:33:21.:33:27.

coming in below the radar, should these people be paying council tax,

:33:28.:33:31.

or business tax? We don't know where they are until we get the complaints

:33:32.:33:37.

in and then it is too late. Airbnb said we want to see everybody's

:33:38.:33:41.

income and then we can regulate the industry better. As a trade

:33:42.:33:50.

Representative Association would you support that? I am speaking as the

:33:51.:33:55.

owner and founder of a business roughly similar to Airbnb. I know

:33:56.:34:02.

hate Chim RC and the Treasury have had conversations about what can and

:34:03.:34:08.

can't be done and what is right, and being on the board, Airbnb have had

:34:09.:34:13.

endless meetings with Treasury and HMRC about what can and can't be

:34:14.:34:18.

done. In the end they are a platform, like me having my make-up

:34:19.:34:22.

done by your very nice make-up man. He takes in travelling actors

:34:23.:34:29.

through his website. I am sure he pays his tax, declares it. Would he

:34:30.:34:34.

expect travelling actors to reveal his income to the taxman? Probably

:34:35.:34:39.

not. Local authorities are picking up the cost of this. We could run

:34:40.:34:45.

this a bit longer because it raises a lot of issues, but we have got to

:34:46.:34:47.

leave it there. People love to complain

:34:48.:34:50.

about politicians, but you won't hear much grumbling

:34:51.:34:52.

about Baroness Trumpington. She's a Tory member of the House

:34:53.:34:54.

of Lords, appointed back in 1980 During a career as a minister

:34:55.:34:57.

and a peer, Trumpington has been independent of thought and has

:34:58.:35:01.

always been one to She has also been mischievous,

:35:02.:35:03.

for example, she famously directed a V-sign at Lord King,

:35:04.:35:07.

when he remarked upon her age Her life chronicles much

:35:08.:35:09.

of the history of the 20th century. She once worked for David

:35:10.:35:13.

Lloyd George on his farm. She is the sort of person

:35:14.:35:17.

for whom the words national But today, her 95th birthday,

:35:18.:35:20.

she is stepping down from the Lords. They have been marking the end

:35:21.:35:25.

of her era with a party this evening, here is a picture

:35:26.:35:28.

of her celebrating with Prime Minister John Major

:35:29.:35:30.

and the Lords Speaker. I sat down with her on Friday,

:35:31.:35:33.

to talk about her life I began by asking her

:35:34.:35:36.

whether life is better now Well, better for those

:35:37.:35:39.

who have money. I think it's amazing the way people

:35:40.:36:05.

climbed out of the mud Well, I can think of

:36:06.:36:10.

Betty Boothroyd, for instance. She was a great success and she had

:36:11.:36:21.

to fight to begin with. Another big woman in your life

:36:22.:36:26.

was Margaret Thatcher of course? And you still think

:36:27.:36:28.

of her with affection because you often argued with her,

:36:29.:36:32.

I think? But that was my value

:36:33.:36:33.

to her and she realised But if I didn't agree

:36:34.:36:40.

with her about something, I said so. It gave her a chance to know what

:36:41.:36:51.

the opposition might say to her. Important in politics not

:36:52.:37:03.

to have all the yes men What about the issue

:37:04.:37:06.

of women in politics? Because a lot has changed

:37:07.:37:13.

in your lifetime. And a lot has changed since you were

:37:14.:37:16.

in the Lords, which was 1980. How should women deal

:37:17.:37:27.

with men who are interested Because it is a big issue today,

:37:28.:37:29.

a lot of women are very angry about it, how should women react,

:37:30.:37:35.

slap them in the face go I think you curse them and it's

:37:36.:37:42.

quite possible to slap their face. One of the big changes

:37:43.:37:53.

between men and women between your young life and now is,

:37:54.:38:01.

men just used to grope women Because women have

:38:02.:38:04.

learned to fight back. Really, women used to be

:38:05.:38:17.

terrified of making a fuss. If the man deserves it, he deserves

:38:18.:38:22.

to have a public fuss made of him. Just tell me about David Lloyd

:38:23.:38:34.

George, because he was one What about this thing

:38:35.:38:45.

with him measuring you up? You are a young girl working

:38:46.:38:51.

on his estate and he's taking a physical interest

:38:52.:38:54.

in you, correct? Anyway, I was much too frightened

:38:55.:38:55.

and shy at that time to object. Of course, you worked at Bletchley

:38:56.:39:17.

in the Second World War as part When Churchill visited us he said,

:39:18.:39:20.

you are the birds that laid the golden eggs,

:39:21.:39:30.

but never cackled. And that was the important thing,

:39:31.:39:38.

was that we never talks. Tell me about this episode

:39:39.:39:44.

in the House of lords, this is one you were very famous

:39:45.:39:48.

for, which was Lord King, made some reference to your age

:39:49.:39:55.

and you did the V-sign at him? And then the survivors

:39:56.:39:58.

of World War II started to look pretty old as well,

:39:59.:40:00.

as my noble friend, the baroness reminded me,

:40:01.:40:03.

I believe claiming to be Now on some stories, you weren't

:40:04.:40:05.

really making every sign, Now on some stories,

:40:06.:40:18.

you weren't really making a V-sign but on other accounts,

:40:19.:40:20.

you knew very well, you knew I did know, because I thought

:40:21.:40:23.

he was insufferable. Trumpington, we associate anything

:40:24.:40:26.

with Trump with the president How extraordinary the Americans

:40:27.:40:29.

are to have let him get away... Well I won't say what

:40:30.:40:49.

I was going to say. Can I ask what you are going to miss

:40:50.:40:52.

most as you leave the lords and say farewell on that long period

:40:53.:41:04.

in your life? I will have permission to sit

:41:05.:41:06.

on the steps of the throne and I will be able to eat meals

:41:07.:41:18.

there, but I won't be a member You will miss them and I'm

:41:19.:41:21.

sure they will miss you. Baroness Trumpington,

:41:22.:41:39.

thank you so much. And that is all we have time for. I

:41:40.:41:53.

will be back tomorrow but until then, good night.

:41:54.:42:07.

Good evening. One thing we won't be in

:42:08.:42:08.

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