In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis.
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The programme starts with testimony
that some viewers may find
In recent days allegations have been
made about some MPs' conduct
including my own. Some of these
allegations are false but I have
realised that in the past I have
fallen below the high standards we
require from the Armed Forces.
What started as a scandal
in Hollywood has become
a crisis in Westminster,
with one of Theresa May's
key cabinet colleagues,
the Defence Secretary
Michael Fallon, stepping down.
His scalp may be
a ministerial first.
It may not be the last.
But the issue of sexual harassment
goes way beyond Westminster.
Tonight, we've chosen to give this
subject the full studio treament.
How are men behaving towards women?
And what women are
now saying about it?
I had gone for a late brunch
with a friend and on my tube journey
home I was on the Northern Line
coming out at Tooting Broadway
and as I came on to the escalator
I stood and I noticed a man run
really quickly - he was really keen
to get on this escalator behind me.
I was 18 when it happened.
And it was just at a work party.
I had been to a couple
of work parties before
and they were nothing
out of ordinary.
I was looking forward to it.
Initially, it was really good.
We got on very well.
He had a really good
sense of humour.
He liked music.
So we went out quite a bit.
So later in the evening,
I found myself alone with him.
It hadn't been my intention
at all to be alone with him.
But with the high turn around
of people at a party,
it happened and it was then
he put his hand on my back
and forced me into the bathroom
and that's where he continued.
That is where he raped me.
He stood as close as he could
physically be to me.
His entire body was almost pressed
up against my back and I noticed
something that I think is the back
of a hand perhaps,
pushed up against my bum.
I think as we were,
the longer we were together,
the more comfortable he got
with putting me down.
He would call me an idiot.
He would swear.
He would tell me I was stupid.
Tell me I was thick.
And I stopped eating
at the dinner table eventually,
because he used to tell me
I was a pig and I ate like a pig.
It is a cross between emotions
of feeling almost embarrassed
and dirty, this feeling of,
oh God, I can't believe
this happened to me,
that someone has seen me and
seen me as a target and at the end
you almost feel a little bit guilty,
where you think, someone
pressed their body against mine,
the hand ran over my bum,
but I wasn't raped and there is that
guilt as well.
So you almost don't know how
to handle the emotion.
What happens is it happens
so slowly over a period
of time that it just chip,
chip, chips away at who
you are as a person,
until I looked in the mirror
and I was just
unrecognisable to myself.
I just wasn't me.
In a couple of months,
then the police said there wasn't
enough evidence to continue.
In most cases it is a "he says,
she says" situation.
Upon hearing this, work just
reinstated us back and I had to kick
up a real fuss to make sure
we didn't work together.
When he came back on to his shift,
a couple male members
of staff came up to him,
shook his hand, welcomed him back,
said it was good to have him back.
I don't want to have every day
remembering a time when I was groped
on the Tube by a man that I had
never seen before and obviously
don't find that sort
of behaviour acceptable.
I remember one day when I was in bed
and I couldn't do anything,
I just couldn't get up
and my daughter came in,
she was only five.
She came in and she didn't say
anything, she just climbed
in the bed beside me
and gave me a hug.
And I think she must have known.
There is so much that
just changed after that.
I lost a lot of friends,
because they didn't know what to say
to me, how to respond.
A lot of my guy friends just
didn't know what to do.
You just wonder if you're ever
going to find a sense of normality,
just have a relationship again.
It wasn't until it was highlighted
to me that I looked back
and thought, "Oh my God,
all this time, all this time
and I didn't even see it."
I don't think much or enough
is being done to handle this.
Especially when over
half your population
in London are female,
something needs to be done to make
them feel safer, because I don't.
Tonight, we want to reflect on an
age-old problem, sex, power, abuse
So tonight we want to reflect
the new national conversation
about an age-old problem.
Sex, power and abuse and allegation
- have the rules changed?
Are we redefining what we're
prepared to put up with?
And how do we feel about calling
people "guilty" in such
a vocal, public way?
We have a panel of speakers,
and a lively audience of 12 men.
Much to come then, but first
Evan and your thoughts
on the problem with men.
"All men are rapists."
It's an old trope, from a character
in a feminist novel called
The Women's Room.
It's of course an absurd
exaggeration if the word "rape"
is to have its usual meaning.
Not all men are rapists.
However, a very large number
do think about women,
or men and sex a lot of the time.
It's a powerful motivator
and although it is sometimes
unfashionable to invoke biology
when it comes to explaining human
action, there is something rather
animal about how men often behave.
In fact, it's because it is
so animal we have social codes
to restrain that behaviour.
Perhaps the reason why the Weinstein
scandal has been so potent
is that it is where the basest
of instincts meet the most
sophisticated of human
creations - law and culture.
There are flashing images coming up
in this film.
It is far too simplistic to say male
mammals are more regressive and have
their way with women when they like.
Nature delivers a variety of mating
strategies. But it is true that with
many animals males gained
evolutionary benefits from fighting
with each other or coercing females
into mating. That is less true of
females. There are even some species
where some females mimic males to
avoid continual harassment. It also
has to be said that in most mammals,
including us, males have higher
testosterone levels the females, and
this may incline them to be more
aggressive. Don't worry, I'm not
going to use any of this to a rate
men or argue they cannot help
themselves, it is just nature. That
is not my point, not even close. The
key insight is a lot has been said
about how men exploit their power in
order to serve their craving for sex
and women. But you could argue it is
the other way round. They crave
power because it makes it easier to
exploit women get sex. That is the
animal side of the problem, strong
urges, dominant men. How do humans
deal with this? There are societies
where men are barely restrained at
all. The tiny British colony of
Pitcairn seemed to be like this, a
population measured in tens. In the
early 2000s it hit a crisis.
According to court testimony, rape
was a way of life. Half the adult
men faced charges of sexual
offences. But that is the exception.
Most societies develop a code of
social behaviour. In the Tory in
Britain it is about dressing females
in ways which would excite less
animal passion from humans. Covering
up the ankles, for example. And then
women get the blame when men are
aroused. But the other problem is
men face penalty for non-restraint
and that is clearly where Western
societies are striving supposedly
striving today. Our current system
is not working well because to
punish sexually aggressive men you
have to catch them, and we don't,
because victims have very good
reasons not to report them. You
might say what is happening at the
moment is a recalibration of our
social rules into. Firstly, around
what is considered socially
acceptable behaviour, and secondly,
in reducing the stigma for those who
call it out. Tonight, we have had a
Cabinet resignation, the most
tangible sign yet which shows how
things are changing post Weinstein.
When Michael Fallon resigned, he
said what might have been acceptable
ten or 15 years ago is clearly not
acceptable now. New responsibilities
are being imposed, men have to live
up to the standards as site now
Apologies for reducing a rich seam
of evolutionary biology to that
two minute treatment,
but it may just offer a guide
as to what we're up against.
Another sign of how deep it runs,
I had an e-mail earlier today
from someone I know well,
who described an astonishing piece
of inappropriate behaviour that
occurred this morning.
Quite surprising that predators have
not taken a pause during this season
of news frenzy on the topic.
I should say of course,
that we tend to talk of this
as a man, woman issue.
But it's been conspicuous
in the last month just how much
chatter there is about men
harassing other men.
It's different to harassment
of women, but similar.
But, for this evening,
we'll focus on male/female issues.
So does everyone know
what sexual abuse looks like?
Once we thought we did.
Now it's not so clear.
The boundaries have
And men are having to learn
what they look like.
So are men now changing
And is it making all our work
relationships really awkward?
Let's ask our men.
I would like to ask you first if you
think you have changed your
behaviour in recent weeks since some
of these allegations came out? Who
would say they have changed their
behaviour? Terence, what have you
I have noticed that you
have to change your behaviour with
women the way you touch them or put
your arm around them or the way you
look at them, to be honest. Years
ago used to be had to laugh with
women, joke with them but now...
you do not laugh with women any
You do that you use to put
your arms around them and you cannot
do that no more.
Do you agree?
don't understand why it is
appropriate to Dutch study when
you're having a laugh and joke with
someone. Physical bodily contact
when it is uninitiated is wrong and
it has always been wrong.
say it is wrong, do you ask
permission to put your hand on
somebody's shoulder or touch their
There is no reason to touch
you. What does it add?
still like that?
I think it is time
for a complete rethink by men and
women. I'll give you an example.
Just last Sunday I was at church.
And now, where normally I am a
fairly lovable easy-going character,
now I wait for women to come to me,
and they invariably want to kiss me
on the cheek and give me a hug, it
is a friendly thing.
So you will not
make the first approach now?
is worried to make the first tactile
of physical approach to women. You
are the only one. John, you're
looking at me.
This thing of PC has
gone to such an extreme nowadays.
What do you mean by that?
correct, what is the margin, what is
the boundary. I am not entirely
convinced that I am ever going to
change being friendly to somebody
and if I know that person well
enough, that I'm quite happy to give
them a cuddle, hug, whatever the
A lot of the younger men
are quite silent in this point. I'm
going to bring you in. Do you find
it confusing? Is it a grey area or
is it obvious?
I think most of the
time it is fairly obvious. Sometimes
I have stepped into the grey area
and when I have seen someone is
uncomfortable I have apologised and
said, I should not have done that
and you gain an understanding. When
he said there is no reason to touch
someone if you aren't invited to, I
suppose a lot of people you are used
to thinking, physical contact is
natural and whatnot.
When we say if
there is no invitation, you don't
have any reason to touch someone,
for example, if someone drops
something and I have to call them
out and they couldn't hear me, soap
if I touch them, am I committing
sexual harassment? Come on.
lost our sense of common sense in
all of this?
To the very
Tom, what was your
I feel it is so it's second
nature. I'm 21. I have grown up
where it is so obvious to me, I
struggle to see a lot of the other
opinions about how... The whole idea
of just being friendly with someone
and feeling the need to touch them,
for me, that is not the case. I
don't need to do that. I just have a
So you never touch
your friends? You never feel the
need to reach out and touch your
friends? It is fine if it is a no.
In some contexts I suppose.
Your do touch your friends.
saying what Tom said is alien?
are they afraid of.
I was going to
say, whether or not you touch a
friend, be it a male or female
friend depends on the context,
whether you have done before,
whether they have touched you. If
you just want to give them a hug or
kiss or touch them for the first
time, maybe you turn them on the
Evan, you have some data on this.
Now, social attitudes
as to the boundaries
matter on these issues
and we have polling evidence
of what attitudes are at the moment.
A YouGov Eurotrack survey taken
in the last two weeks asked people
about some specific behaviours
and whether they always or usually
constitute sexual harassment,
if a man who was not a romantic
partner or friend,
did them to a woman.
There are some things that
almost everybody agrees
are harassment - trying to take
a photograph up a woman's
Requesting sexual favours -
92% say that's harassment.
Pinching or grabbing
a woman's bum - that's 91%.
At the other end, there are several
things that are widely seen not
to be sexual harassment.
Commenting on a woman's
just 16% thought that was always
or usually harassment.
Winking at a woman - 13%.
Asking for a drink -
just 3% thought that harassment.
But in some ways the most
interesting areas are those
where the public have
no dominant view.
The middle ones.
Looking at a woman's breasts -
50% think that is harassment.
Wolf whistling - 38%.
And a man placing his hand
on a woman's lower back - 37%
think that is harassment.
In the poll - there do seem
to be some grey zones.
Who thinks looking at a woman's
breast is harassment. You're the
only one shaking your head.
depends on the context.
We are not
talk about in bed with your partner.
If you're in a lift and there is two
of you there and you stare at her
breasts that is harassment. If
you're on a dance floor it is
It depends on how women
present themselves to men. Here we
are in 2017, men and women have
seriously got to rethink all over
Who agrees with that and
thinks it up to woman to relook at
how they think.
You think it is
about women? Go on tell me what you
Just exactly what he said to
You're breathing very
heavily. I'm going to bring you in.
I can't believe we're
victim-blaming, we don't train our
boys to dress appropriately. We
train our boys not to rape them.
is no about harassment, it is more
about respect, I think respect comes
into this a lot. Staring at a
woman's parts when you're talking to
her is, because you wouldn't... A
man couldn't talk to another man and
look at an inappropriate part of his
What about wolf whistling or
the hand on the back.
somebody is harassment. You're not
saying it is not harassment. But it
is not the same stuff.
I didn't say
it is not disrespect.
it in a way that makes you feel
better. It is the same masculine
By not respecting a woman
doesn't make it any better or more
acceptable. If somebody disrespects
you, does it make it acceptable. You
respect a woman in the first place
you wouldn't need to look at her
Who about confusion with
a action who, has put a hand on a
woman's back without thinking about
it. Would you now think about that
in a different light when you have
seen the data.
wouldn't do that and John you say...
I would continue as I've always done
in the context of depending on how
friendly you are with the person and
I'm not talking about the Queen you
We will pause at that moment.
I think the panel has a lot to say.
We will be back.
Let me introduce our panel here -
experts and commentators who have
been thinking harder
about this than most of us.
Laura Bates, the founder
of the Everyday Sexism Project,
Shelagh Fogarty LBC presenter,
musician Jordan Stephens one half
of the band Rizzle Kicks,
writer and commentator Neil Lyndon
the author of No More Sex War
and journalist Eliza Anyangwe.
It was interesting what Michael
Fallon said when he resigned, he
said what was acceptable 15 or 10
years ago is no longer acceptable
now. That implication is the rules
have changed. Eliza you were shaking
your head, they were always the
What has changed is what
people can get a pat on the back for
having done, can get promotions, I
think we have framed the discussion
inaccurately. This is about power
and the way people use power.
Whether or not a male friend touches
me on my shoulder is inconsequential
a and to make men feel they have to
walk around women and our xer
excising of speaking up about
victimhood is something Joe public
needs to be fearful of women for.
That is not what the conversation is
about. When we look at Weinstein, he
has abused his power and has preyed
on vulnerable women and that is
Laura, the conversation has
gone beyond Weinstein to quite a lot
of these every day interactions,
every day sexism, that is not rape
and it often is touching of knees
and things, it is quite different.
think it is important to say that
actually the very serious abuses,
very serious assault, rape are every
day. That is the important thing. We
have seen this out pouring of
accusations of women's experience,
why are we asking if it is OK to
touch a woman on the elbow. 12
million women around the world have
spoken out about their experiences
and I guarantee you go and have a
look at them, you won't find one
saying is I'm outraged someone
touched me on the elbow. This is
reframing the conversation. We are
talking about serious abuses.
confused, I think the conversation
has got to more of the obviously not
touching an elbow accidentally, the
conversation has got to interactions
that are much less serious than
Harvey Weinstein's one. The extreme
ones have opened up a conversation
about the whole spectrum. Iet
right is is about power and serious
things are every day things. But I
think you're opening film was
interesting, the woman talking about
the assault on the tube and the man
groping her backside, that is the
kind of every day approach by a
total stranger, this was not a party
where a colleague was drunk and
inappropriate and you could tackle
it, that has happened to me and he
said sorry and that was fine. But
that, what struck me as interesting,
why I don't think it is just about
male power and just about male
behaviour, I think women have to
have a discussion in their own minds
and with each other about what they
do when it happens. It is alien to
me the idea I would be on a tube and
a stranger would feel me up and I
would do nothing. I would react.
are going to come to that calling
out subject in the second half of
the programme. Neil, back to my
first question, have the rules
changed, because really I think a
lot of people say the rules have
always been as clear as anything.
You know what you can do and can't
The rules remain the same, they
have always been the same. But
everything has changed. Everything
changed at the point of the
contraceptive revolution. And that
caused the social changes which have
brought a flood of women into the
work place, into higher edge case at
all levels of -- education at all
levels of society. That is the key.
If you set this conversation in
evolutionary terms, you have to look
at that essential point of change.
What is remarkable about the changes
that have occurred in the last 50
years is how harmoniously they have
been conducted and our misfortune in
the last 50 years is it has been
framed in terms of a totalitarianism
of the 19th century as if men impose
their power on women and that is the
only interpretation of our
You're point is men
There is patriarchy, as a
black woman in children there is
that and racism and issues that,
where power is exercised over women.
I like for me, I just don't
understand why we are in a situation
where we are not questioning why men
even questioning how to treat
another human being with any kind of
respect and decency. It is a lack of
come passion that is found from
having, it is bizarre to question
how to interact with another human
What do you think causes it?
You have talked of toxic
I think the patriarchy
that is a way of... Of showing
weakness and sadness gets pent up
which abuse power and the patriarchy
makes ways of object if s object
You raised the issue
of calling out. We will turn to that
Many victims have shared
their experiences on social media.
Many men have now been named
and shamed on those same sites.
So are we happy with this
public court of justice -
is that where the power now lies?
We'll talk about calling out
the perpetrators in a moment.
Where it works and
where it goes wrong.
First, have a watch.
Let's get you sat down.
I have got over here ready.
Navigating the work place is
challenging for some.
Tell me about
I took a year out and went
And let's face it, David Brent
wouldn't have been such a hit if he
hadn't been a familiar prototype of
those we have known. But if the
etiquette of real life behaviour is
becoming clearer there are virtual
spaces that have no rules. We are
making that stuff up as we go along.
Sharing sites have been
extraordinarily powerful in bringing
together those who suffered
humiliation or worse in a form where
they can find support. Did Rose
McGowan have an idea what she
unleashing, naming Harvey Weinstein.
I have been silent for 20 years. I
have been slut-shamed.
offered their experiences in a
tweet. One talked of a sexual
assault and inspired half a million
hits in just 24 hours. Some used the
slogan to share their own, others to
show solidarity. The calling out of
abuse is long over due, but it is
opening up a grey area. One person's
catharsis becomes another's
witch-hunt. Those speaking out
expect to be believed, so are all
those publicly named guilty? Are we
asking Twitter to become judge and
jury. And what of what's app and the
groups sharing perpetrator's names
with no ramification. Don't forget
David Brent is called out.
say at one time or another every
bloke in the office has woken up at
the crack of dawn.
tell her friends in the pub, but
would she call a national newspaper?
That is what Twitter has the pow to
do now. Are we happy with that?
OK, well this gets straight
into a debate about this
issue of reporting.
On the one hand, calling out has
clearly become a feature
of the last two weeks.
But it's also interesting
there is still a reticence
on the part of many victims,
to name the perpetrators.
Let's talk to the panel.
Shelagh, you brought this up, is it
still difficult to have this
I found it was
difficult for me to have this
conversation on air with Naomi Wolf
the feminist author. I was so
excited to be interviewing her and
when I talked about what women need
to do in response in both individual
cases and the wider discussion we
need to have, straightaway she very
anxiously said, you are victim
blaming and this is bothering me so
our conversation went in a different
direction. The conversation I was
aiming to have and really feel
passionate about is, women need as
individuals and as groups and in the
workplace, need to be able to know
what to do, who took all, what to
say, to be safe when
they do so, to have a proper
structure when it happens, but it
has to begin inside them. It really
pains me when I hear women saying I
feel shame when this happened to me.
I have never felt personal shame
when someone has crossed the line
with me. I have made them know they
have done something wrong. That is
not to say aren't I great? That
something I have in my upbringing
and allows me to feel it is
absolutely their shame and they
should be named, I should not be
shamed and its structures around
that confident that has to be built
around I think.
Laura, you were
shaking your head a little bit
I think we are looking at
this completely the wrong way. It is
not about health under the response
or what to do in response it is
about stopping it happening in the
It has to be both. For
Ayr no, it doesn't. We do not matter
how we will respond in that
situation. They are talking about a
It might be
somebody at the beginning of their
career. We might think I will do
this or that but then wish at down
in panic. When we talk about this in
a particular way and women do not
feel able to do so, they feel they
do something wrong.
I do not mean to
make people feel they have done
something wrong. It pains me that
when I say that if it is interpreted
as me shaming blaming women or
shifting the focus from men, it
isn't. It is about saying if the
culture is going to respond to this,
everyone in that culture has to have
It seems that the naming of
the perpetrators is stopping them
from doing it. Neil, what do you
think about how we stop this or how
we make it easier to call it out and
catch people who are doing the wrong
It does seem that the
Weinstein scandal and subsequent
revelations tend to reveal a rather
dramatic failure of parenting going
on. I think parents need to tell
their girls, their daughters, like
one of the Weinstein occasions, he
was banging on an actress's door in
the middle of the night, he was
drunk. I think she should know that
you don't let a man in. Siam
no! I don't think you can navigate
life from cradle to grave without
experiencing a road traffic accident
or encountering a serious illness
and you cannot avoid unpleasant
No! It is
absolutely ridiculous that you have
chosen the parenting issue of the
girl inside the room who is
vulnerable. The idea is there is an
abuse of power from a man who has
got to that stage. There is an issue
with men. The reason why this is a
crisis is because the patriarch he
does not allow...
Does not the
For a man to turn up
at a woman's door...
Don't let me
This goes back to the
idea of biology.
Just because you
raise your voice does not mean you
The point that
you are making is put the
responsibility of the girl to use
her voice, that is what you are
saying, right? What you are asking
for is you negate the structural
reasons why a girl would be
silenced. Even if she wants to, gold
does not want to use her voice and
her own community will silence her.
Don't all speak together.
why I said it is not just the
person, it has to be procedural and
structural so there is support when
someone speaks out. It is to protect
us when it happens.
And I am
explaining why it comes across
wrong. When you say the individual
is all you hear that responsibility
lies with that one person. The woman
who accused Dominique Strauss Kahn,
where was the community around her?
I want to hear Jordan's view on
I think, I cannot stray from
the idea that it is a serious lack
of compassion and personal
understanding, it is mad to me that
we are questioning why someone would
think it was okayed to step into
someone's personal space and that is
something that happens.
okayed. It is not okayed.
I have got
to speak about this biology idea, it
is not about biology, it is not
about sex, it is not something that
all men cannot control. How
insulting to the vast majority of
men. This is deliberate, it is often
criminal, it is meant choosing to
assault and harass women. We should
focus on them and not suggest it is
an inherent biological trait.
will take this back to the audience
Question about calling people out,
it often happens social media. Do
you think it is a force for good or
a force for bad?
In my opinion, what
social media does is it is showing
us transparency. It is showing that
this is happening. It is unpleasant
but it is exposing a system which
has always been there. It does mean
we are confronted with more things
that we think, this is messed up, it
is horrible, how did we let this
As I said this previously,
time for a rethink. Not being one to
Bible bash, do unto others as you
would have them do unto you.
dangerous with the social media
because as we have seen over recent
years, that has been a number of
innocent men who have gone through
hell because their names have been
released by vindictive females.
How'd you know they are vindictive?
There is one case in particular
which comes to light, one woman in
particular had seven or eight men
sent to prison. She had accused each
one of raping her before she was
found to be a compulsive liar. One
man had done eight years.
talking about a very specific case.
Do people feel that social media,
Facebook, Twitter, WhatsApp is
acting like a public court?
problem with social media is you
advocate responsibility. You make a
tweet or write something and that is
done. You can create an anonymous
profile, people follow you.
should women do? Women have been
having these grievances, they have
sat on them, then they come out and
write about them on social media or
different sites, what should happen
If it is crime which has been
committed, because there are plenty
of legislation in place to protect
women, if some feels that they have
been harassed, they have been
treated inappropriately or attacked
or whatever, there is illegal
because for them to call the police
and get them involved. 30 years ago,
it was custom and practice for a man
to knock his wife about. Domestic
violence was done to the carpet.
that has not been changed by calling
the police, it has been changed by
public opinion saying it will not be
The law changed.
one way could be solved is looking
for the nondisclosure argument. If
there is a sexual violence case more
than once, the nondisclosure case
should not be upheld.
Let me bring
this back to this evening where we
started the show with the
resignation of one Cabinet minister,
for something, he did not explain
what, but something which happened
in the past. Is it right that men
should now be resigning for actions
which happened in the past, he says
in a different culture?
panel all agrees.
They should face
And if we see a
raft of resignations right across
the board, that is a good thing?
Women need to take appropriate
action, if they feel they have been
harassed or offended.
Why are you
always putting the onus on women? We
should be educating men about what
is acceptable and what is not. I
went to an all boys school. We were
not properly told what we should and
should not be doing.
disagree with you.
We as a group of
men are trying to define what women
are feeling. We cannot do that. We
cannot talk for women. It is utterly
impossible. Why are we trying to say
what is harassment? Why are we not
asking victims of rape and
Have women got to be
more resilient with how they deal
with cases of sexual harassment or
would you say now, it is all to do
with our behaviour as men? You would
say your behaviour.
In the majority
of cases where the man is known to
the woman, such as a family member,
friend, work colleague or something,
a simple no is usually enough.
Defending on the offence --
depending on the offence.
I do know
what you're saying but I do think
that it absolutely has to begin with
the offending behaviour of the man.
When I talk about empowering a
woman, if you want to call it that,
that is an add-on to this discussion
but it is central to it. You are
right, no man can speak for women
generally but no woman can speak for
women generally. Every person should
be allowed to say what happened to
them and how they stopped and the
thing I am passionate about
achieving is that they have a
structure and support which works
Back to the idea of social
media, there is a great transparency
in the way victims are feeling, we
would not be having this discussion
if it had not been for things which
have come through Twitter.
So a last
thought, do you think this is now
something which has changed
irrevocably or will this hit a peak
and quietly fade away? Who think
something has fundamentally changed
in the waters now?
I just want to
say from a male perspective, the
male suicide rate is through the
roof and ADHD is more current in
men. We are suppressing our motion,
we are not creating forces in the
male community to be open and honest
and caring and nurturing with each
other, or, because we have a society
which mocks men for being weak and
vulnerable and that needs to change.
Do you know what, we need to leave
it there. We have devoted this one
programme to this topic but I have a
feeling we will do it everyday for
the next of months. There is
agreement between the sexes and
plenty of battles between the sexes
Thank you to our panel of
commentators. Kirsty will be here
tomorrow. Thank you for watching.