01/11/2017 Newsnight


01/11/2017

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

The programme starts with testimony

that some viewers may find

0:00:030:00:07

upsetting.

In recent days allegations have been

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made about some MPs' conduct

including my own. Some of these

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allegations are false but I have

realised that in the past I have

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fallen below the high standards we

require from the Armed Forces.

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What started as a scandal

in Hollywood has become

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a crisis in Westminster,

with one of Theresa May's

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key cabinet colleagues,

the Defence Secretary

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Michael Fallon, stepping down.

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His scalp may be

a ministerial first.

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It may not be the last.

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But the issue of sexual harassment

goes way beyond Westminster.

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Tonight, we've chosen to give this

subject the full studio treament.

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How are men behaving towards women?

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And what women are

now saying about it?

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I had gone for a late brunch

with a friend and on my tube journey

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home I was on the Northern Line

coming out at Tooting Broadway

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and as I came on to the escalator

I stood and I noticed a man run

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really quickly - he was really keen

to get on this escalator behind me.

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I was 18 when it happened.

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And it was just at a work party.

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I had been to a couple

of work parties before

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and they were nothing

out of ordinary.

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I was looking forward to it.

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Initially, it was really good.

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We got on very well.

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He had a really good

sense of humour.

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He liked music.

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So we went out quite a bit.

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So later in the evening,

I found myself alone with him.

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It hadn't been my intention

at all to be alone with him.

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But with the high turn around

of people at a party,

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it happened and it was then

he put his hand on my back

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and forced me into the bathroom

and that's where he continued.

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That is where he raped me.

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He stood as close as he could

physically be to me.

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His entire body was almost pressed

up against my back and I noticed

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something that I think is the back

of a hand perhaps,

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pushed up against my bum.

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I think as we were,

the longer we were together,

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the more comfortable he got

with putting me down.

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He would call me an idiot.

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He would swear.

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He would tell me I was stupid.

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Tell me I was thick.

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And I stopped eating

at the dinner table eventually,

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because he used to tell me

I was a pig and I ate like a pig.

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It is a cross between emotions

of feeling almost embarrassed

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and dirty, this feeling of,

oh God, I can't believe

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this happened to me,

that someone has seen me and

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seen me as a target and at the end

you almost feel a little bit guilty,

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where you think, someone

pressed their body against mine,

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the hand ran over my bum,

but I wasn't raped and there is that

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guilt as well.

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So you almost don't know how

to handle the emotion.

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What happens is it happens

so slowly over a period

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of time that it just chip,

chip, chips away at who

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you are as a person,

until I looked in the mirror

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and I was just

unrecognisable to myself.

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I just wasn't me.

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In a couple of months,

then the police said there wasn't

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enough evidence to continue.

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In most cases it is a "he says,

she says" situation.

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Upon hearing this, work just

reinstated us back and I had to kick

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up a real fuss to make sure

we didn't work together.

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When he came back on to his shift,

a couple male members

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of staff came up to him,

shook his hand, welcomed him back,

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said it was good to have him back.

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I don't want to have every day

remembering a time when I was groped

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on the Tube by a man that I had

never seen before and obviously

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don't find that sort

of behaviour acceptable.

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I remember one day when I was in bed

and I couldn't do anything,

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I just couldn't get up

and my daughter came in,

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she was only five.

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She came in and she didn't say

anything, she just climbed

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in the bed beside me

and gave me a hug.

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And I think she must have known.

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There is so much that

just changed after that.

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I lost a lot of friends,

because they didn't know what to say

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to me, how to respond.

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A lot of my guy friends just

didn't know what to do.

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You just wonder if you're ever

going to find a sense of normality,

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just have a relationship again.

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It wasn't until it was highlighted

to me that I looked back

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and thought, "Oh my God,

all this time, all this time

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and I didn't even see it."

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I don't think much or enough

is being done to handle this.

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Especially when over

half your population

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in London are female,

something needs to be done to make

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them feel safer, because I don't.

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Good evening.

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Tonight, we want to reflect on an

age-old problem, sex, power, abuse

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and allegations.

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So tonight we want to reflect

the new national conversation

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about an age-old problem.

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Sex, power and abuse and allegation

- have the rules changed?

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Are we redefining what we're

prepared to put up with?

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And how do we feel about calling

people "guilty" in such

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a vocal, public way?

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We have a panel of speakers,

and a lively audience of 12 men.

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Much to come then, but first

Evan and your thoughts

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on the problem with men.

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"All men are rapists."

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It's an old trope, from a character

in a feminist novel called

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The Women's Room.

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It's of course an absurd

exaggeration if the word "rape"

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is to have its usual meaning.

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Not all men are rapists.

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However, a very large number

do think about women,

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or men and sex a lot of the time.

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It's a powerful motivator

and although it is sometimes

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unfashionable to invoke biology

when it comes to explaining human

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action, there is something rather

animal about how men often behave.

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In fact, it's because it is

so animal we have social codes

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to restrain that behaviour.

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Perhaps the reason why the Weinstein

scandal has been so potent

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is that it is where the basest

of instincts meet the most

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sophisticated of human

creations - law and culture.

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There are flashing images coming up

in this film.

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It is far too simplistic to say male

mammals are more regressive and have

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their way with women when they like.

Nature delivers a variety of mating

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strategies. But it is true that with

many animals males gained

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evolutionary benefits from fighting

with each other or coercing females

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into mating. That is less true of

females. There are even some species

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where some females mimic males to

avoid continual harassment. It also

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has to be said that in most mammals,

including us, males have higher

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testosterone levels the females, and

this may incline them to be more

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aggressive. Don't worry, I'm not

going to use any of this to a rate

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men or argue they cannot help

themselves, it is just nature. That

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is not my point, not even close. The

key insight is a lot has been said

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about how men exploit their power in

order to serve their craving for sex

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and women. But you could argue it is

the other way round. They crave

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power because it makes it easier to

exploit women get sex. That is the

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animal side of the problem, strong

urges, dominant men. How do humans

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deal with this? There are societies

where men are barely restrained at

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all. The tiny British colony of

Pitcairn seemed to be like this, a

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population measured in tens. In the

early 2000s it hit a crisis.

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According to court testimony, rape

was a way of life. Half the adult

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men faced charges of sexual

offences. But that is the exception.

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Most societies develop a code of

social behaviour. In the Tory in

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Britain it is about dressing females

in ways which would excite less

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animal passion from humans. Covering

up the ankles, for example. And then

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women get the blame when men are

aroused. But the other problem is

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men face penalty for non-restraint

and that is clearly where Western

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societies are striving supposedly

striving today. Our current system

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is not working well because to

punish sexually aggressive men you

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have to catch them, and we don't,

because victims have very good

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reasons not to report them. You

might say what is happening at the

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moment is a recalibration of our

social rules into. Firstly, around

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what is considered socially

acceptable behaviour, and secondly,

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in reducing the stigma for those who

call it out. Tonight, we have had a

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Cabinet resignation, the most

tangible sign yet which shows how

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things are changing post Weinstein.

When Michael Fallon resigned, he

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said what might have been acceptable

ten or 15 years ago is clearly not

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acceptable now. New responsibilities

are being imposed, men have to live

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up to the standards as site now

expects.

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Apologies for reducing a rich seam

of evolutionary biology to that

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two minute treatment,

but it may just offer a guide

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as to what we're up against.

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Another sign of how deep it runs,

I had an e-mail earlier today

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from someone I know well,

who described an astonishing piece

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of inappropriate behaviour that

occurred this morning.

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Quite surprising that predators have

not taken a pause during this season

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of news frenzy on the topic.

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I should say of course,

that we tend to talk of this

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as a man, woman issue.

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But it's been conspicuous

in the last month just how much

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chatter there is about men

harassing other men.

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It's different to harassment

of women, but similar.

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But, for this evening,

we'll focus on male/female issues.

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So does everyone know

what sexual abuse looks like?

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Once we thought we did.

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Now it's not so clear.

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The boundaries have

definitely shifted.

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And men are having to learn

what they look like.

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So are men now changing

their behaviour?

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And is it making all our work

relationships really awkward?

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Let's ask our men.

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I would like to ask you first if you

think you have changed your

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behaviour in recent weeks since some

of these allegations came out? Who

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would say they have changed their

behaviour? Terence, what have you

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noticed?

I have noticed that you

have to change your behaviour with

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women the way you touch them or put

your arm around them or the way you

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look at them, to be honest. Years

ago used to be had to laugh with

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women, joke with them but now...

And

you do not laugh with women any

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more?

You do that you use to put

your arms around them and you cannot

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do that no more.

Do you agree?

I

don't understand why it is

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appropriate to Dutch study when

you're having a laugh and joke with

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someone. Physical bodily contact

when it is uninitiated is wrong and

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it has always been wrong.

When you

say it is wrong, do you ask

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permission to put your hand on

somebody's shoulder or touch their

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elbow?

There is no reason to touch

you. What does it add?

Does anyone

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still like that?

I think it is time

for a complete rethink by men and

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women. I'll give you an example.

Just last Sunday I was at church.

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And now, where normally I am a

fairly lovable easy-going character,

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now I wait for women to come to me,

and they invariably want to kiss me

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on the cheek and give me a hug, it

is a friendly thing.

So you will not

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make the first approach now?

No.

Who

is worried to make the first tactile

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of physical approach to women. You

are the only one. John, you're

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looking at me.

This thing of PC has

gone to such an extreme nowadays.

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What do you mean by that?

What is

correct, what is the margin, what is

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the boundary. I am not entirely

convinced that I am ever going to

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change being friendly to somebody

and if I know that person well

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enough, that I'm quite happy to give

them a cuddle, hug, whatever the

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word is.

A lot of the younger men

are quite silent in this point. I'm

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going to bring you in. Do you find

it confusing? Is it a grey area or

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is it obvious?

I think most of the

time it is fairly obvious. Sometimes

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I have stepped into the grey area

and when I have seen someone is

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uncomfortable I have apologised and

said, I should not have done that

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and you gain an understanding. When

he said there is no reason to touch

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someone if you aren't invited to, I

suppose a lot of people you are used

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to thinking, physical contact is

natural and whatnot.

When we say if

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there is no invitation, you don't

have any reason to touch someone,

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for example, if someone drops

something and I have to call them

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out and they couldn't hear me, soap

if I touch them, am I committing

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sexual harassment? Come on.

Have we

lost our sense of common sense in

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all of this?

Completely.

To the very

jagged line.

Tom, what was your

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sense?

I feel it is so it's second

nature. I'm 21. I have grown up

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where it is so obvious to me, I

struggle to see a lot of the other

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opinions about how... The whole idea

of just being friendly with someone

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and feeling the need to touch them,

for me, that is not the case. I

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don't need to do that. I just have a

conversation.

So you never touch

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your friends? You never feel the

need to reach out and touch your

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friends? It is fine if it is a no.

In some contexts I suppose.

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Your do touch your friends.

You're

saying what Tom said is alien?

What

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are they afraid of.

I was going to

say, whether or not you touch a

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friend, be it a male or female

friend depends on the context,

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whether you have done before,

whether they have touched you. If

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you just want to give them a hug or

kiss or touch them for the first

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time, maybe you turn them on the

arm.

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Evan, you have some data on this.

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Now, social attitudes

as to the boundaries

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matter on these issues

and we have polling evidence

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of what attitudes are at the moment.

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A YouGov Eurotrack survey taken

in the last two weeks asked people

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about some specific behaviours

and whether they always or usually

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constitute sexual harassment,

if a man who was not a romantic

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partner or friend,

did them to a woman.

0:15:240:15:30

There are some things that

almost everybody agrees

0:15:300:15:34

are harassment - trying to take

a photograph up a woman's

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skirt, 96%.

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Requesting sexual favours -

92% say that's harassment.

0:15:410:15:46

Pinching or grabbing

a woman's bum - that's 91%.

0:15:460:15:53

At the other end, there are several

things that are widely seen not

0:15:530:15:56

to be sexual harassment.

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Commenting on a woman's

attractiveness -

0:15:580:15:59

just 16% thought that was always

or usually harassment.

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Winking at a woman - 13%.

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Asking for a drink -

just 3% thought that harassment.

0:16:080:16:15

But in some ways the most

interesting areas are those

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where the public have

no dominant view.

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The middle ones.

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Looking at a woman's breasts -

50% think that is harassment.

0:16:230:16:28

Wolf whistling - 38%.

0:16:280:16:33

And a man placing his hand

on a woman's lower back - 37%

0:16:330:16:35

think that is harassment.

0:16:350:16:40

In the poll - there do seem

to be some grey zones.

0:16:400:16:50

Who thinks looking at a woman's

breast is harassment. You're the

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only one shaking your head.

It

depends on the context.

We are not

0:17:000:17:05

talk about in bed with your partner.

If you're in a lift and there is two

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of you there and you stare at her

breasts that is harassment. If

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you're on a dance floor it is

different.

It depends on how women

0:17:170:17:24

present themselves to men. Here we

are in 2017, men and women have

0:17:240:17:30

seriously got to rethink all over

again...

Who agrees with that and

0:17:300:17:34

thinks it up to woman to relook at

how they think.

No.

You think it is

0:17:340:17:43

about women? Go on tell me what you

think.

Just exactly what he said to

0:17:430:17:52

be honest.

You're breathing very

heavily. I'm going to bring you in.

0:17:520:17:58

I can't believe we're

victim-blaming, we don't train our

0:17:580:18:05

boys to dress appropriately. We

train our boys not to rape them.

It

0:18:050:18:10

is no about harassment, it is more

about respect, I think respect comes

0:18:100:18:15

into this a lot. Staring at a

woman's parts when you're talking to

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her is, because you wouldn't... A

man couldn't talk to another man and

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look at an inappropriate part of his

body.

What about wolf whistling or

0:18:270:18:33

the hand on the back.

To disrespect

somebody is harassment. You're not

0:18:330:18:38

saying it is not harassment. But it

is not the same stuff.

I didn't say

0:18:380:18:48

it is not disrespect.

You're doing

it in a way that makes you feel

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better. It is the same masculine

strap.

By not respecting a woman

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doesn't make it any better or more

acceptable. If somebody disrespects

0:19:000:19:05

you, does it make it acceptable. You

respect a woman in the first place

0:19:050:19:10

you wouldn't need to look at her

down there.

Who about confusion with

0:19:100:19:15

a action who, has put a hand on a

woman's back without thinking about

0:19:150:19:20

it. Would you now think about that

in a different light when you have

0:19:200:19:25

seen the data.

Yes definitely.

You

wouldn't do that and John you say...

0:19:250:19:31

I would continue as I've always done

in the context of depending on how

0:19:310:19:37

friendly you are with the person and

I'm not talking about the Queen you

0:19:370:19:43

know?

We will pause at that moment.

I think the panel has a lot to say.

0:19:430:19:48

We will be back.

0:19:480:19:51

Let me introduce our panel here -

experts and commentators who have

0:19:510:19:54

been thinking harder

about this than most of us.

0:19:540:19:56

Laura Bates, the founder

of the Everyday Sexism Project,

0:19:560:19:59

Shelagh Fogarty LBC presenter,

musician Jordan Stephens one half

0:19:590:20:01

of the band Rizzle Kicks,

writer and commentator Neil Lyndon

0:20:010:20:04

the author of No More Sex War

and journalist Eliza Anyangwe.

0:20:040:20:12

It was interesting what Michael

Fallon said when he resigned, he

0:20:120:20:16

said what was acceptable 15 or 10

years ago is no longer acceptable

0:20:160:20:19

now. That implication is the rules

have changed. Eliza you were shaking

0:20:190:20:28

your head, they were always the

same?

What has changed is what

0:20:280:20:32

people can get a pat on the back for

having done, can get promotions, I

0:20:320:20:39

think we have framed the discussion

inaccurately. This is about power

0:20:390:20:43

and the way people use power.

Whether or not a male friend touches

0:20:430:20:49

me on my shoulder is inconsequential

a and to make men feel they have to

0:20:490:20:56

walk around women and our xer

excising of speaking up about

0:20:560:21:03

victimhood is something Joe public

needs to be fearful of women for.

0:21:030:21:06

That is not what the conversation is

about. When we look at Weinstein, he

0:21:060:21:12

has abused his power and has preyed

on vulnerable women and that is

0:21:120:21:17

wrong.

Laura, the conversation has

gone beyond Weinstein to quite a lot

0:21:170:21:23

of these every day interactions,

every day sexism, that is not rape

0:21:230:21:29

and it often is touching of knees

and things, it is quite different.

I

0:21:290:21:33

think it is important to say that

actually the very serious abuses,

0:21:330:21:38

very serious assault, rape are every

day. That is the important thing. We

0:21:380:21:42

have seen this out pouring of

accusations of women's experience,

0:21:420:21:47

why are we asking if it is OK to

touch a woman on the elbow. 12

0:21:470:21:54

million women around the world have

spoken out about their experiences

0:21:540:21:57

and I guarantee you go and have a

look at them, you won't find one

0:21:570:22:02

saying is I'm outraged someone

touched me on the elbow. This is

0:22:020:22:06

reframing the conversation. We are

talking about serious abuses.

Am I

0:22:060:22:12

confused, I think the conversation

has got to more of the obviously not

0:22:120:22:17

touching an elbow accidentally, the

conversation has got to interactions

0:22:170:22:21

that are much less serious than

Harvey Weinstein's one. The extreme

0:22:210:22:26

ones have opened up a conversation

about the whole spectrum. Iet

You're

0:22:260:22:34

right is is about power and serious

things are every day things. But I

0:22:340:22:39

think you're opening film was

interesting, the woman talking about

0:22:390:22:42

the assault on the tube and the man

groping her backside, that is the

0:22:420:22:48

kind of every day approach by a

total stranger, this was not a party

0:22:480:22:52

where a colleague was drunk and

inappropriate and you could tackle

0:22:520:22:57

it, that has happened to me and he

said sorry and that was fine. But

0:22:570:23:02

that, what struck me as interesting,

why I don't think it is just about

0:23:020:23:06

male power and just about male

behaviour, I think women have to

0:23:060:23:10

have a discussion in their own minds

and with each other about what they

0:23:100:23:15

do when it happens. It is alien to

me the idea I would be on a tube and

0:23:150:23:20

a stranger would feel me up and I

would do nothing. I would react.

We

0:23:200:23:24

are going to come to that calling

out subject in the second half of

0:23:240:23:28

the programme. Neil, back to my

first question, have the rules

0:23:280:23:33

changed, because really I think a

lot of people say the rules have

0:23:330:23:36

always been as clear as anything.

You know what you can do and can't

0:23:360:23:40

do?

The rules remain the same, they

have always been the same. But

0:23:400:23:45

everything has changed. Everything

changed at the point of the

0:23:450:23:52

contraceptive revolution. And that

caused the social changes which have

0:23:520:23:58

brought a flood of women into the

work place, into higher edge case at

0:23:580:24:03

all levels of -- education at all

levels of society. That is the key.

0:24:030:24:08

If you set this conversation in

evolutionary terms, you have to look

0:24:080:24:13

at that essential point of change.

What is remarkable about the changes

0:24:130:24:17

that have occurred in the last 50

years is how harmoniously they have

0:24:170:24:23

been conducted and our misfortune in

the last 50 years is it has been

0:24:230:24:29

framed in terms of a totalitarianism

of the 19th century as if men impose

0:24:290:24:38

their power on women and that is the

only interpretation of our

0:24:380:24:41

relationships.

You're point is men

have acquiesced.

They have

0:24:410:24:51

consented.

There is patriarchy, as a

black woman in children there is

0:24:510:25:00

that and racism and issues that,

where power is exercised over women.

0:25:000:25:05

Jordan?

I like for me, I just don't

understand why we are in a situation

0:25:050:25:10

where we are not questioning why men

even questioning how to treat

0:25:100:25:16

another human being with any kind of

respect and decency. It is a lack of

0:25:160:25:24

come passion that is found from

having, it is bizarre to question

0:25:240:25:28

how to interact with another human

being.

What do you think causes it?

0:25:280:25:35

You have talked of toxic

masculinity.

I think the patriarchy

0:25:350:25:48

that is a way of... Of showing

weakness and sadness gets pent up

0:25:480:25:56

which abuse power and the patriarchy

makes ways of object if s object

0:25:560:26:06

Faying women.

You raised the issue

of calling out. We will turn to that

0:26:060:26:12

now.

0:26:120:26:15

Many victims have shared

their experiences on social media.

0:26:150:26:17

Many men have now been named

and shamed on those same sites.

0:26:170:26:20

So are we happy with this

public court of justice -

0:26:200:26:22

is that where the power now lies?

0:26:220:26:24

We'll talk about calling out

the perpetrators in a moment.

0:26:240:26:26

Where it works and

where it goes wrong.

0:26:260:26:28

First, have a watch.

0:26:280:26:32

Hi.

Hello.

Let's get you sat down.

OK.

I have got over here ready.

0:26:320:26:44

Navigating the work place is

challenging for some.

Tell me about

0:26:440:26:47

yourself.

I took a year out and went

exploring.

Exploring yourself?

And

0:26:470:26:54

Asia.

And let's face it, David Brent

wouldn't have been such a hit if he

0:26:540:27:01

hadn't been a familiar prototype of

those we have known. But if the

0:27:010:27:09

etiquette of real life behaviour is

becoming clearer there are virtual

0:27:090:27:14

spaces that have no rules. We are

making that stuff up as we go along.

0:27:140:27:18

Sharing sites have been

extraordinarily powerful in bringing

0:27:180:27:22

together those who suffered

humiliation or worse in a form where

0:27:220:27:26

they can find support. Did Rose

McGowan have an idea what she

0:27:260:27:34

unleashing, naming Harvey Weinstein.

I have been silent for 20 years. I

0:27:340:27:40

have been slut-shamed.

Others

offered their experiences in a

0:27:400:27:50

tweet. One talked of a sexual

assault and inspired half a million

0:27:500:27:54

hits in just 24 hours. Some used the

slogan to share their own, others to

0:27:540:28:02

show solidarity. The calling out of

abuse is long over due, but it is

0:28:020:28:09

opening up a grey area. One person's

catharsis becomes another's

0:28:090:28:14

witch-hunt. Those speaking out

expect to be believed, so are all

0:28:140:28:19

those publicly named guilty? Are we

asking Twitter to become judge and

0:28:190:28:23

jury. And what of what's app and the

groups sharing perpetrator's names

0:28:230:28:31

with no ramification. Don't forget

David Brent is called out.

I would

0:28:310:28:37

say at one time or another every

bloke in the office has woken up at

0:28:370:28:44

the crack of dawn.

What

Dawn might

tell her friends in the pub, but

0:28:440:28:49

would she call a national newspaper?

That is what Twitter has the pow to

0:28:490:28:55

do now. Are we happy with that?

0:28:550:29:02

OK, well this gets straight

into a debate about this

0:29:020:29:04

issue of reporting.

0:29:040:29:06

On the one hand, calling out has

clearly become a feature

0:29:060:29:08

of the last two weeks.

0:29:080:29:09

But it's also interesting

there is still a reticence

0:29:090:29:12

on the part of many victims,

to name the perpetrators.

0:29:120:29:14

Let's talk to the panel.

0:29:140:29:20

Shelagh, you brought this up, is it

still difficult to have this

0:29:200:29:25

conversation?

I found it was

difficult for me to have this

0:29:250:29:29

conversation on air with Naomi Wolf

the feminist author. I was so

0:29:290:29:33

excited to be interviewing her and

when I talked about what women need

0:29:330:29:37

to do in response in both individual

cases and the wider discussion we

0:29:370:29:41

need to have, straightaway she very

anxiously said, you are victim

0:29:410:29:46

blaming and this is bothering me so

our conversation went in a different

0:29:460:29:50

direction. The conversation I was

aiming to have and really feel

0:29:500:29:54

passionate about is, women need as

individuals and as groups and in the

0:29:540:29:58

workplace, need to be able to know

what to do, who took all, what to

0:29:580:30:02

say, to be safe when

0:30:020:30:13

they do so, to have a proper

structure when it happens, but it

0:30:140:30:16

has to begin inside them. It really

pains me when I hear women saying I

0:30:160:30:19

feel shame when this happened to me.

I have never felt personal shame

0:30:190:30:22

when someone has crossed the line

with me. I have made them know they

0:30:220:30:26

have done something wrong. That is

not to say aren't I great? That

0:30:260:30:30

something I have in my upbringing

and allows me to feel it is

0:30:300:30:33

absolutely their shame and they

should be named, I should not be

0:30:330:30:38

shamed and its structures around

that confident that has to be built

0:30:380:30:41

around I think.

Laura, you were

shaking your head a little bit

0:30:410:30:45

there.

I think we are looking at

this completely the wrong way. It is

0:30:450:30:49

not about health under the response

or what to do in response it is

0:30:490:30:55

about stopping it happening in the

first place.

It has to be both. For

0:30:550:31:00

Ayr no, it doesn't. We do not matter

how we will respond in that

0:31:000:31:03

situation. They are talking about a

power differential.

It might be

0:31:030:31:07

somebody at the beginning of their

career. We might think I will do

0:31:070:31:10

this or that but then wish at down

in panic. When we talk about this in

0:31:100:31:16

a particular way and women do not

feel able to do so, they feel they

0:31:160:31:21

do something wrong.

I do not mean to

make people feel they have done

0:31:210:31:26

something wrong. It pains me that

when I say that if it is interpreted

0:31:260:31:31

as me shaming blaming women or

shifting the focus from men, it

0:31:310:31:35

isn't. It is about saying if the

culture is going to respond to this,

0:31:350:31:39

everyone in that culture has to have

a voice.

It seems that the naming of

0:31:390:31:44

the perpetrators is stopping them

from doing it. Neil, what do you

0:31:440:31:48

think about how we stop this or how

we make it easier to call it out and

0:31:480:31:53

catch people who are doing the wrong

thing?

It does seem that the

0:31:530:31:59

Weinstein scandal and subsequent

revelations tend to reveal a rather

0:31:590:32:04

dramatic failure of parenting going

on. I think parents need to tell

0:32:040:32:09

their girls, their daughters, like

one of the Weinstein occasions, he

0:32:090:32:15

was banging on an actress's door in

the middle of the night, he was

0:32:150:32:19

drunk. I think she should know that

you don't let a man in. Siam

0:32:190:32:27

no! I don't think you can navigate

life from cradle to grave without

0:32:320:32:42

experiencing a road traffic accident

or encountering a serious illness

0:32:420:32:46

and you cannot avoid unpleasant

sexual experience.

No! It is

0:32:460:32:53

absolutely ridiculous that you have

chosen the parenting issue of the

0:32:530:32:57

girl inside the room who is

vulnerable. The idea is there is an

0:32:570:33:01

abuse of power from a man who has

got to that stage. There is an issue

0:33:010:33:04

with men. The reason why this is a

crisis is because the patriarch he

0:33:040:33:12

does not allow...

Does not the

patriarch Lee.

For a man to turn up

0:33:120:33:17

at a woman's door...

Don't let me

call security.

This goes back to the

0:33:170:33:26

idea of biology.

Just because you

raise your voice does not mean you

0:33:260:33:29

are right.

Analyser.

The point that

you are making is put the

0:33:290:33:37

responsibility of the girl to use

her voice, that is what you are

0:33:370:33:41

saying, right? What you are asking

for is you negate the structural

0:33:410:33:45

reasons why a girl would be

silenced. Even if she wants to, gold

0:33:450:33:49

does not want to use her voice and

her own community will silence her.

0:33:490:33:57

Don't all speak together.

That is

why I said it is not just the

0:33:570:34:00

person, it has to be procedural and

structural so there is support when

0:34:000:34:05

someone speaks out. It is to protect

us when it happens.

And I am

0:34:050:34:11

explaining why it comes across

wrong. When you say the individual

0:34:110:34:15

is all you hear that responsibility

lies with that one person. The woman

0:34:150:34:20

who accused Dominique Strauss Kahn,

where was the community around her?

0:34:200:34:23

I want to hear Jordan's view on

this.

I think, I cannot stray from

0:34:230:34:32

the idea that it is a serious lack

of compassion and personal

0:34:320:34:36

understanding, it is mad to me that

we are questioning why someone would

0:34:360:34:39

think it was okayed to step into

someone's personal space and that is

0:34:390:34:45

something that happens.

Does not

okayed. It is not okayed.

I have got

0:34:450:34:55

to speak about this biology idea, it

is not about biology, it is not

0:34:550:34:59

about sex, it is not something that

all men cannot control. How

0:34:590:35:03

insulting to the vast majority of

men. This is deliberate, it is often

0:35:030:35:08

criminal, it is meant choosing to

assault and harass women. We should

0:35:080:35:13

focus on them and not suggest it is

an inherent biological trait.

We

0:35:130:35:20

will take this back to the audience

now.

0:35:200:35:28

Question about calling people out,

it often happens social media. Do

0:35:280:35:36

you think it is a force for good or

a force for bad?

In my opinion, what

0:35:360:35:43

social media does is it is showing

us transparency. It is showing that

0:35:430:35:47

this is happening. It is unpleasant

but it is exposing a system which

0:35:470:35:51

has always been there. It does mean

we are confronted with more things

0:35:510:35:54

that we think, this is messed up, it

is horrible, how did we let this

0:35:540:35:59

happen?

As I said this previously,

time for a rethink. Not being one to

0:35:590:36:05

Bible bash, do unto others as you

would have them do unto you.

It is

0:36:050:36:12

dangerous with the social media

because as we have seen over recent

0:36:120:36:16

years, that has been a number of

innocent men who have gone through

0:36:160:36:19

hell because their names have been

released by vindictive females.

0:36:190:36:26

How'd you know they are vindictive?

There is one case in particular

0:36:260:36:30

which comes to light, one woman in

particular had seven or eight men

0:36:300:36:34

sent to prison. She had accused each

one of raping her before she was

0:36:340:36:38

found to be a compulsive liar. One

man had done eight years.

You are

0:36:380:36:44

talking about a very specific case.

Do people feel that social media,

0:36:440:36:49

Facebook, Twitter, WhatsApp is

acting like a public court?

The

0:36:490:36:54

problem with social media is you

advocate responsibility. You make a

0:36:540:36:57

tweet or write something and that is

done. You can create an anonymous

0:36:570:37:02

profile, people follow you.

So what

should women do? Women have been

0:37:020:37:07

having these grievances, they have

sat on them, then they come out and

0:37:070:37:10

write about them on social media or

different sites, what should happen

0:37:100:37:14

then?

If it is crime which has been

committed, because there are plenty

0:37:140:37:20

of legislation in place to protect

women, if some feels that they have

0:37:200:37:24

been harassed, they have been

treated inappropriately or attacked

0:37:240:37:27

or whatever, there is illegal

because for them to call the police

0:37:270:37:31

and get them involved. 30 years ago,

it was custom and practice for a man

0:37:310:37:36

to knock his wife about. Domestic

violence was done to the carpet.

But

0:37:360:37:41

that has not been changed by calling

the police, it has been changed by

0:37:410:37:45

public opinion saying it will not be

tolerated.

The law changed.

I think

0:37:450:37:51

one way could be solved is looking

for the nondisclosure argument. If

0:37:510:37:58

there is a sexual violence case more

than once, the nondisclosure case

0:37:580:38:06

should not be upheld.

Let me bring

this back to this evening where we

0:38:060:38:10

started the show with the

resignation of one Cabinet minister,

0:38:100:38:14

for something, he did not explain

what, but something which happened

0:38:140:38:17

in the past. Is it right that men

should now be resigning for actions

0:38:170:38:21

which happened in the past, he says

in a different culture?

Yes.

The

0:38:210:38:28

panel all agrees.

They should face

the consequences.

And if we see a

0:38:280:38:34

raft of resignations right across

the board, that is a good thing?

0:38:340:38:38

Yes.

Women need to take appropriate

action, if they feel they have been

0:38:380:38:45

harassed or offended.

Why are you

always putting the onus on women? We

0:38:450:38:52

should be educating men about what

is acceptable and what is not. I

0:38:520:38:55

went to an all boys school. We were

not properly told what we should and

0:38:550:39:00

should not be doing.

I don't

disagree with you.

We as a group of

0:39:000:39:06

men are trying to define what women

are feeling. We cannot do that. We

0:39:060:39:11

cannot talk for women. It is utterly

impossible. Why are we trying to say

0:39:110:39:16

what is harassment? Why are we not

asking victims of rape and

0:39:160:39:23

harassment?

Have women got to be

more resilient with how they deal

0:39:230:39:27

with cases of sexual harassment or

would you say now, it is all to do

0:39:270:39:31

with our behaviour as men? You would

say your behaviour.

In the majority

0:39:310:39:39

of cases where the man is known to

the woman, such as a family member,

0:39:390:39:43

friend, work colleague or something,

a simple no is usually enough.

0:39:430:39:49

Defending on the offence --

depending on the offence.

I do know

0:39:490:39:58

what you're saying but I do think

that it absolutely has to begin with

0:39:580:40:02

the offending behaviour of the man.

When I talk about empowering a

0:40:020:40:06

woman, if you want to call it that,

that is an add-on to this discussion

0:40:060:40:10

but it is central to it. You are

right, no man can speak for women

0:40:100:40:15

generally but no woman can speak for

women generally. Every person should

0:40:150:40:20

be allowed to say what happened to

them and how they stopped and the

0:40:200:40:23

thing I am passionate about

achieving is that they have a

0:40:230:40:27

structure and support which works

for them.

Back to the idea of social

0:40:270:40:33

media, there is a great transparency

in the way victims are feeling, we

0:40:330:40:36

would not be having this discussion

if it had not been for things which

0:40:360:40:42

have come through Twitter.

So a last

thought, do you think this is now

0:40:420:40:46

something which has changed

irrevocably or will this hit a peak

0:40:460:40:51

and quietly fade away? Who think

something has fundamentally changed

0:40:510:40:56

in the waters now?

I just want to

say from a male perspective, the

0:40:560:41:00

male suicide rate is through the

roof and ADHD is more current in

0:41:000:41:04

men. We are suppressing our motion,

we are not creating forces in the

0:41:040:41:11

male community to be open and honest

and caring and nurturing with each

0:41:110:41:15

other, or, because we have a society

which mocks men for being weak and

0:41:150:41:19

vulnerable and that needs to change.

Do you know what, we need to leave

0:41:190:41:24

it there. We have devoted this one

programme to this topic but I have a

0:41:240:41:28

feeling we will do it everyday for

the next of months. There is

0:41:280:41:41

agreement between the sexes and

plenty of battles between the sexes

0:41:410:41:44

as well.

0:41:440:41:52

Thank you to our panel of

commentators. Kirsty will be here

0:41:520:41:56

tomorrow. Thank you for watching.

Good night.

0:41:560:42:00

Good night.

0:42:010:42:01

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