01/11/2017 Newsnight

The programme starts with testimony

that some viewers may find

upsetting.

In recent days allegations have been

made about some MPs' conduct

including my own. Some of these

allegations are false but I have

realised that in the past I have

fallen below the high standards we

require from the Armed Forces.

What started as a scandal

in Hollywood has become

a crisis in Westminster,

with one of Theresa May's

key cabinet colleagues,

the Defence Secretary

Michael Fallon, stepping down.

His scalp may be

a ministerial first.

It may not be the last.

But the issue of sexual harassment

goes way beyond Westminster.

Tonight, we've chosen to give this

subject the full studio treament.

How are men behaving towards women?

And what women are

now saying about it?

I had gone for a late brunch

with a friend and on my tube journey

home I was on the Northern Line

coming out at Tooting Broadway

and as I came on to the escalator

I stood and I noticed a man run

really quickly - he was really keen

to get on this escalator behind me.

I was 18 when it happened.

And it was just at a work party.

I had been to a couple

of work parties before

and they were nothing

out of ordinary.

I was looking forward to it.

Initially, it was really good.

We got on very well.

He had a really good

sense of humour.

He liked music.

So we went out quite a bit.

So later in the evening,

I found myself alone with him.

It hadn't been my intention

at all to be alone with him.

But with the high turn around

of people at a party,

it happened and it was then

he put his hand on my back

and forced me into the bathroom

and that's where he continued.

That is where he raped me.

He stood as close as he could

physically be to me.

His entire body was almost pressed

up against my back and I noticed

something that I think is the back

of a hand perhaps,

pushed up against my bum.

I think as we were,

the longer we were together,

the more comfortable he got

with putting me down.

He would call me an idiot.

He would swear.

He would tell me I was stupid.

Tell me I was thick.

And I stopped eating

at the dinner table eventually,

because he used to tell me

I was a pig and I ate like a pig.

It is a cross between emotions

of feeling almost embarrassed

and dirty, this feeling of,

oh God, I can't believe

this happened to me,

that someone has seen me and

seen me as a target and at the end

you almost feel a little bit guilty,

where you think, someone

pressed their body against mine,

the hand ran over my bum,

but I wasn't raped and there is that

guilt as well.

So you almost don't know how

to handle the emotion.

What happens is it happens

so slowly over a period

of time that it just chip,

chip, chips away at who

you are as a person,

until I looked in the mirror

and I was just

unrecognisable to myself.

I just wasn't me.

In a couple of months,

then the police said there wasn't

enough evidence to continue.

In most cases it is a "he says,

she says" situation.

Upon hearing this, work just

reinstated us back and I had to kick

up a real fuss to make sure

we didn't work together.

When he came back on to his shift,

a couple male members

of staff came up to him,

shook his hand, welcomed him back,

said it was good to have him back.

I don't want to have every day

remembering a time when I was groped

on the Tube by a man that I had

never seen before and obviously

don't find that sort

of behaviour acceptable.

I remember one day when I was in bed

and I couldn't do anything,

I just couldn't get up

and my daughter came in,

she was only five.

She came in and she didn't say

anything, she just climbed

in the bed beside me

and gave me a hug.

And I think she must have known.

There is so much that

just changed after that.

I lost a lot of friends,

because they didn't know what to say

to me, how to respond.

A lot of my guy friends just

didn't know what to do.

You just wonder if you're ever

going to find a sense of normality,

just have a relationship again.

It wasn't until it was highlighted

to me that I looked back

and thought, "Oh my God,

all this time, all this time

and I didn't even see it."

I don't think much or enough

is being done to handle this.

Especially when over

half your population

in London are female,

something needs to be done to make

them feel safer, because I don't.

Good evening.

Tonight, we want to reflect on an

age-old problem, sex, power, abuse

and allegations.

So tonight we want to reflect

the new national conversation

about an age-old problem.

Sex, power and abuse and allegation

- have the rules changed?

Are we redefining what we're

prepared to put up with?

And how do we feel about calling

people "guilty" in such

a vocal, public way?

We have a panel of speakers,

and a lively audience of 12 men.

Much to come then, but first

Evan and your thoughts

on the problem with men.

"All men are rapists."

It's an old trope, from a character

in a feminist novel called

The Women's Room.

It's of course an absurd

exaggeration if the word "rape"

is to have its usual meaning.

Not all men are rapists.

However, a very large number

do think about women,

or men and sex a lot of the time.

It's a powerful motivator

and although it is sometimes

unfashionable to invoke biology

when it comes to explaining human

action, there is something rather

animal about how men often behave.

In fact, it's because it is

so animal we have social codes

to restrain that behaviour.

Perhaps the reason why the Weinstein

scandal has been so potent

is that it is where the basest

of instincts meet the most

sophisticated of human

creations - law and culture.

There are flashing images coming up

in this film.

It is far too simplistic to say male

mammals are more regressive and have

their way with women when they like.

Nature delivers a variety of mating

strategies. But it is true that with

many animals males gained

evolutionary benefits from fighting

with each other or coercing females

into mating. That is less true of

females. There are even some species

where some females mimic males to

avoid continual harassment. It also

has to be said that in most mammals,

including us, males have higher

testosterone levels the females, and

this may incline them to be more

aggressive. Don't worry, I'm not

going to use any of this to a rate

men or argue they cannot help

themselves, it is just nature. That

is not my point, not even close. The

key insight is a lot has been said

about how men exploit their power in

order to serve their craving for sex

and women. But you could argue it is

the other way round. They crave

power because it makes it easier to

exploit women get sex. That is the

animal side of the problem, strong

urges, dominant men. How do humans

deal with this? There are societies

where men are barely restrained at

all. The tiny British colony of

Pitcairn seemed to be like this, a

population measured in tens. In the

early 2000s it hit a crisis.

According to court testimony, rape

was a way of life. Half the adult

men faced charges of sexual

offences. But that is the exception.

Most societies develop a code of

social behaviour. In the Tory in

Britain it is about dressing females

in ways which would excite less

animal passion from humans. Covering

up the ankles, for example. And then

women get the blame when men are

aroused. But the other problem is

men face penalty for non-restraint

and that is clearly where Western

societies are striving supposedly

striving today. Our current system

is not working well because to

punish sexually aggressive men you

have to catch them, and we don't,

because victims have very good

reasons not to report them. You

might say what is happening at the

moment is a recalibration of our

social rules into. Firstly, around

what is considered socially

acceptable behaviour, and secondly,

in reducing the stigma for those who

call it out. Tonight, we have had a

Cabinet resignation, the most

tangible sign yet which shows how

things are changing post Weinstein.

When Michael Fallon resigned, he

said what might have been acceptable

ten or 15 years ago is clearly not

acceptable now. New responsibilities

are being imposed, men have to live

up to the standards as site now

expects.

Apologies for reducing a rich seam

of evolutionary biology to that

two minute treatment,

but it may just offer a guide

as to what we're up against.

Another sign of how deep it runs,

I had an e-mail earlier today

from someone I know well,

who described an astonishing piece

of inappropriate behaviour that

occurred this morning.

Quite surprising that predators have

not taken a pause during this season

of news frenzy on the topic.

I should say of course,

that we tend to talk of this

as a man, woman issue.

But it's been conspicuous

in the last month just how much

chatter there is about men

harassing other men.

It's different to harassment

of women, but similar.

But, for this evening,

we'll focus on male/female issues.

So does everyone know

what sexual abuse looks like?

Once we thought we did.

Now it's not so clear.

The boundaries have

definitely shifted.

And men are having to learn

what they look like.

So are men now changing

their behaviour?

And is it making all our work

relationships really awkward?

Let's ask our men.

I would like to ask you first if you

think you have changed your

behaviour in recent weeks since some

of these allegations came out? Who

would say they have changed their

behaviour? Terence, what have you

noticed?

I have noticed that you

have to change your behaviour with

women the way you touch them or put

your arm around them or the way you

look at them, to be honest. Years

ago used to be had to laugh with

women, joke with them but now...

And

you do not laugh with women any

more?

You do that you use to put

your arms around them and you cannot

do that no more.

Do you agree?

I

don't understand why it is

appropriate to Dutch study when

you're having a laugh and joke with

someone. Physical bodily contact

when it is uninitiated is wrong and

it has always been wrong.

When you

say it is wrong, do you ask

permission to put your hand on

somebody's shoulder or touch their

elbow?

There is no reason to touch

you. What does it add?

Does anyone

still like that?

I think it is time

for a complete rethink by men and

women. I'll give you an example.

Just last Sunday I was at church.

And now, where normally I am a

fairly lovable easy-going character,

now I wait for women to come to me,

and they invariably want to kiss me

on the cheek and give me a hug, it

is a friendly thing.

So you will not

make the first approach now?

No.

Who

is worried to make the first tactile

of physical approach to women. You

are the only one. John, you're

looking at me.

This thing of PC has

gone to such an extreme nowadays.

What do you mean by that?

What is

correct, what is the margin, what is

the boundary. I am not entirely

convinced that I am ever going to

change being friendly to somebody

and if I know that person well

enough, that I'm quite happy to give

them a cuddle, hug, whatever the

word is.

A lot of the younger men

are quite silent in this point. I'm

going to bring you in. Do you find

it confusing? Is it a grey area or

is it obvious?

I think most of the

time it is fairly obvious. Sometimes

I have stepped into the grey area

and when I have seen someone is

uncomfortable I have apologised and

said, I should not have done that

and you gain an understanding. When

he said there is no reason to touch

someone if you aren't invited to, I

suppose a lot of people you are used

to thinking, physical contact is

natural and whatnot.

When we say if

there is no invitation, you don't

have any reason to touch someone,

for example, if someone drops

something and I have to call them

out and they couldn't hear me, soap

if I touch them, am I committing

sexual harassment? Come on.

Have we

lost our sense of common sense in

all of this?

Completely.

To the very

jagged line.

Tom, what was your

sense?

I feel it is so it's second

nature. I'm 21. I have grown up

where it is so obvious to me, I

struggle to see a lot of the other

opinions about how... The whole idea

of just being friendly with someone

and feeling the need to touch them,

for me, that is not the case. I

don't need to do that. I just have a

conversation.

So you never touch

your friends? You never feel the

need to reach out and touch your

friends? It is fine if it is a no.

In some contexts I suppose.

Your do touch your friends.

You're

saying what Tom said is alien?

What

are they afraid of.

I was going to

say, whether or not you touch a

friend, be it a male or female

friend depends on the context,

whether you have done before,

whether they have touched you. If

you just want to give them a hug or

kiss or touch them for the first

time, maybe you turn them on the

arm.

Evan, you have some data on this.

Now, social attitudes

as to the boundaries

matter on these issues

and we have polling evidence

of what attitudes are at the moment.

A YouGov Eurotrack survey taken

in the last two weeks asked people

about some specific behaviours

and whether they always or usually

constitute sexual harassment,

if a man who was not a romantic

partner or friend,

did them to a woman.

There are some things that

almost everybody agrees

are harassment - trying to take

a photograph up a woman's

skirt, 96%.

Requesting sexual favours -

92% say that's harassment.

Pinching or grabbing

a woman's bum - that's 91%.

At the other end, there are several

things that are widely seen not

to be sexual harassment.

Commenting on a woman's

attractiveness -

just 16% thought that was always

or usually harassment.

Winking at a woman - 13%.

Asking for a drink -

just 3% thought that harassment.

But in some ways the most

interesting areas are those

where the public have

no dominant view.

The middle ones.

Looking at a woman's breasts -

50% think that is harassment.

Wolf whistling - 38%.

And a man placing his hand

on a woman's lower back - 37%

think that is harassment.

In the poll - there do seem

to be some grey zones.

Who thinks looking at a woman's

breast is harassment. You're the

only one shaking your head.

It

depends on the context.

We are not

talk about in bed with your partner.

If you're in a lift and there is two

of you there and you stare at her

breasts that is harassment. If

you're on a dance floor it is

different.

It depends on how women

present themselves to men. Here we

are in 2017, men and women have

seriously got to rethink all over

again...

Who agrees with that and

thinks it up to woman to relook at

how they think.

No.

You think it is

about women? Go on tell me what you

think.

Just exactly what he said to

be honest.

You're breathing very

heavily. I'm going to bring you in.

I can't believe we're

victim-blaming, we don't train our

boys to dress appropriately. We

train our boys not to rape them.

It

is no about harassment, it is more

about respect, I think respect comes

into this a lot. Staring at a

woman's parts when you're talking to

her is, because you wouldn't... A

man couldn't talk to another man and

look at an inappropriate part of his

body.

What about wolf whistling or

the hand on the back.

To disrespect

somebody is harassment. You're not

saying it is not harassment. But it

is not the same stuff.

I didn't say

it is not disrespect.

You're doing

it in a way that makes you feel

better. It is the same masculine

strap.

By not respecting a woman

doesn't make it any better or more

acceptable. If somebody disrespects

you, does it make it acceptable. You

respect a woman in the first place

you wouldn't need to look at her

down there.

Who about confusion with

a action who, has put a hand on a

woman's back without thinking about

it. Would you now think about that

in a different light when you have

seen the data.

Yes definitely.

You

wouldn't do that and John you say...

I would continue as I've always done

in the context of depending on how

friendly you are with the person and

I'm not talking about the Queen you

know?

We will pause at that moment.

I think the panel has a lot to say.

We will be back.

Let me introduce our panel here -

experts and commentators who have

been thinking harder

about this than most of us.

Laura Bates, the founder

of the Everyday Sexism Project,

Shelagh Fogarty LBC presenter,

musician Jordan Stephens one half

of the band Rizzle Kicks,

writer and commentator Neil Lyndon

the author of No More Sex War

and journalist Eliza Anyangwe.

It was interesting what Michael

Fallon said when he resigned, he

said what was acceptable 15 or 10

years ago is no longer acceptable

now. That implication is the rules

have changed. Eliza you were shaking

your head, they were always the

same?

What has changed is what

people can get a pat on the back for

having done, can get promotions, I

think we have framed the discussion

inaccurately. This is about power

and the way people use power.

Whether or not a male friend touches

me on my shoulder is inconsequential

a and to make men feel they have to

walk around women and our xer

excising of speaking up about

victimhood is something Joe public

needs to be fearful of women for.

That is not what the conversation is

about. When we look at Weinstein, he

has abused his power and has preyed

on vulnerable women and that is

wrong.

Laura, the conversation has

gone beyond Weinstein to quite a lot

of these every day interactions,

every day sexism, that is not rape

and it often is touching of knees

and things, it is quite different.

I

think it is important to say that

actually the very serious abuses,

very serious assault, rape are every

day. That is the important thing. We

have seen this out pouring of

accusations of women's experience,

why are we asking if it is OK to

touch a woman on the elbow. 12

million women around the world have

spoken out about their experiences

and I guarantee you go and have a

look at them, you won't find one

saying is I'm outraged someone

touched me on the elbow. This is

reframing the conversation. We are

talking about serious abuses.

Am I

confused, I think the conversation

has got to more of the obviously not

touching an elbow accidentally, the

conversation has got to interactions

that are much less serious than

Harvey Weinstein's one. The extreme

ones have opened up a conversation

about the whole spectrum. Iet

You're

right is is about power and serious

things are every day things. But I

think you're opening film was

interesting, the woman talking about

the assault on the tube and the man

groping her backside, that is the

kind of every day approach by a

total stranger, this was not a party

where a colleague was drunk and

inappropriate and you could tackle

it, that has happened to me and he

said sorry and that was fine. But

that, what struck me as interesting,

why I don't think it is just about

male power and just about male

behaviour, I think women have to

have a discussion in their own minds

and with each other about what they

do when it happens. It is alien to

me the idea I would be on a tube and

a stranger would feel me up and I

would do nothing. I would react.

We

are going to come to that calling

out subject in the second half of

the programme. Neil, back to my

first question, have the rules

changed, because really I think a

lot of people say the rules have

always been as clear as anything.

You know what you can do and can't

do?

The rules remain the same, they

have always been the same. But

everything has changed. Everything

changed at the point of the

contraceptive revolution. And that

caused the social changes which have

brought a flood of women into the

work place, into higher edge case at

all levels of -- education at all

levels of society. That is the key.

If you set this conversation in

evolutionary terms, you have to look

at that essential point of change.

What is remarkable about the changes

that have occurred in the last 50

years is how harmoniously they have

been conducted and our misfortune in

the last 50 years is it has been

framed in terms of a totalitarianism

of the 19th century as if men impose

their power on women and that is the

only interpretation of our

relationships.

You're point is men

have acquiesced.

They have

consented.

There is patriarchy, as a

black woman in children there is

that and racism and issues that,

where power is exercised over women.

Jordan?

I like for me, I just don't

understand why we are in a situation

where we are not questioning why men

even questioning how to treat

another human being with any kind of

respect and decency. It is a lack of

come passion that is found from

having, it is bizarre to question

how to interact with another human

being.

What do you think causes it?

You have talked of toxic

masculinity.

I think the patriarchy

that is a way of... Of showing

weakness and sadness gets pent up

which abuse power and the patriarchy

makes ways of object if s object

Faying women.

You raised the issue

of calling out. We will turn to that

now.

Many victims have shared

their experiences on social media.

Many men have now been named

and shamed on those same sites.

So are we happy with this

public court of justice -

is that where the power now lies?

We'll talk about calling out

the perpetrators in a moment.

Where it works and

where it goes wrong.

First, have a watch.

Hi.

Hello.

Let's get you sat down.

OK.

I have got over here ready.

Navigating the work place is

challenging for some.

Tell me about

yourself.

I took a year out and went

exploring.

Exploring yourself?

And

Asia.

And let's face it, David Brent

wouldn't have been such a hit if he

hadn't been a familiar prototype of

those we have known. But if the

etiquette of real life behaviour is

becoming clearer there are virtual

spaces that have no rules. We are

making that stuff up as we go along.

Sharing sites have been

extraordinarily powerful in bringing

together those who suffered

humiliation or worse in a form where

they can find support. Did Rose

McGowan have an idea what she

unleashing, naming Harvey Weinstein.

I have been silent for 20 years. I

have been slut-shamed.

Others

offered their experiences in a

tweet. One talked of a sexual

assault and inspired half a million

hits in just 24 hours. Some used the

slogan to share their own, others to

show solidarity. The calling out of

abuse is long over due, but it is

opening up a grey area. One person's

catharsis becomes another's

witch-hunt. Those speaking out

expect to be believed, so are all

those publicly named guilty? Are we

asking Twitter to become judge and

jury. And what of what's app and the

groups sharing perpetrator's names

with no ramification. Don't forget

David Brent is called out.

I would

say at one time or another every

bloke in the office has woken up at

the crack of dawn.

What

Dawn might

tell her friends in the pub, but

would she call a national newspaper?

That is what Twitter has the pow to

do now. Are we happy with that?

OK, well this gets straight

into a debate about this

issue of reporting.

On the one hand, calling out has

clearly become a feature

of the last two weeks.

But it's also interesting

there is still a reticence

on the part of many victims,

to name the perpetrators.

Let's talk to the panel.

Shelagh, you brought this up, is it

still difficult to have this

conversation?

I found it was

difficult for me to have this

conversation on air with Naomi Wolf

the feminist author. I was so

excited to be interviewing her and

when I talked about what women need

to do in response in both individual

cases and the wider discussion we

need to have, straightaway she very

anxiously said, you are victim

blaming and this is bothering me so

our conversation went in a different

direction. The conversation I was

aiming to have and really feel

passionate about is, women need as

individuals and as groups and in the

workplace, need to be able to know

what to do, who took all, what to

say, to be safe when

they do so, to have a proper

structure when it happens, but it

has to begin inside them. It really

pains me when I hear women saying I

feel shame when this happened to me.

I have never felt personal shame

when someone has crossed the line

with me. I have made them know they

have done something wrong. That is

not to say aren't I great? That

something I have in my upbringing

and allows me to feel it is

absolutely their shame and they

should be named, I should not be

shamed and its structures around

that confident that has to be built

around I think.

Laura, you were

shaking your head a little bit

there.

I think we are looking at

this completely the wrong way. It is

not about health under the response

or what to do in response it is

about stopping it happening in the

first place.

It has to be both. For

Ayr no, it doesn't. We do not matter

how we will respond in that

situation. They are talking about a

power differential.

It might be

somebody at the beginning of their

career. We might think I will do

this or that but then wish at down

in panic. When we talk about this in

a particular way and women do not

feel able to do so, they feel they

do something wrong.

I do not mean to

make people feel they have done

something wrong. It pains me that

when I say that if it is interpreted

as me shaming blaming women or

shifting the focus from men, it

isn't. It is about saying if the

culture is going to respond to this,

everyone in that culture has to have

a voice.

It seems that the naming of

the perpetrators is stopping them

from doing it. Neil, what do you

think about how we stop this or how

we make it easier to call it out and

catch people who are doing the wrong

thing?

It does seem that the

Weinstein scandal and subsequent

revelations tend to reveal a rather

dramatic failure of parenting going

on. I think parents need to tell

their girls, their daughters, like

one of the Weinstein occasions, he

was banging on an actress's door in

the middle of the night, he was

drunk. I think she should know that

you don't let a man in. Siam

no! I don't think you can navigate

life from cradle to grave without

experiencing a road traffic accident

or encountering a serious illness

and you cannot avoid unpleasant

sexual experience.

No! It is

absolutely ridiculous that you have

chosen the parenting issue of the

girl inside the room who is

vulnerable. The idea is there is an

abuse of power from a man who has

got to that stage. There is an issue

with men. The reason why this is a

crisis is because the patriarch he

does not allow...

Does not the

patriarch Lee.

For a man to turn up

at a woman's door...

Don't let me

call security.

This goes back to the

idea of biology.

Just because you

raise your voice does not mean you

are right.

Analyser.

The point that

you are making is put the

responsibility of the girl to use

her voice, that is what you are

saying, right? What you are asking

for is you negate the structural

reasons why a girl would be

silenced. Even if she wants to, gold

does not want to use her voice and

her own community will silence her.

Don't all speak together.

That is

why I said it is not just the

person, it has to be procedural and

structural so there is support when

someone speaks out. It is to protect

us when it happens.

And I am

explaining why it comes across

wrong. When you say the individual

is all you hear that responsibility

lies with that one person. The woman

who accused Dominique Strauss Kahn,

where was the community around her?

I want to hear Jordan's view on

this.

I think, I cannot stray from

the idea that it is a serious lack

of compassion and personal

understanding, it is mad to me that

we are questioning why someone would

think it was okayed to step into

someone's personal space and that is

something that happens.

Does not

okayed. It is not okayed.

I have got

to speak about this biology idea, it

is not about biology, it is not

about sex, it is not something that

all men cannot control. How

insulting to the vast majority of

men. This is deliberate, it is often

criminal, it is meant choosing to

assault and harass women. We should

focus on them and not suggest it is

an inherent biological trait.

We

will take this back to the audience

now.

Question about calling people out,

it often happens social media. Do

you think it is a force for good or

a force for bad?

In my opinion, what

social media does is it is showing

us transparency. It is showing that

this is happening. It is unpleasant

but it is exposing a system which

has always been there. It does mean

we are confronted with more things

that we think, this is messed up, it

is horrible, how did we let this

happen?

As I said this previously,

time for a rethink. Not being one to

Bible bash, do unto others as you

would have them do unto you.

It is

dangerous with the social media

because as we have seen over recent

years, that has been a number of

innocent men who have gone through

hell because their names have been

released by vindictive females.

How'd you know they are vindictive?

There is one case in particular

which comes to light, one woman in

particular had seven or eight men

sent to prison. She had accused each

one of raping her before she was

found to be a compulsive liar. One

man had done eight years.

You are

talking about a very specific case.

Do people feel that social media,

Facebook, Twitter, WhatsApp is

acting like a public court?

The

problem with social media is you

advocate responsibility. You make a

tweet or write something and that is

done. You can create an anonymous

profile, people follow you.

So what

should women do? Women have been

having these grievances, they have

sat on them, then they come out and

write about them on social media or

different sites, what should happen

then?

If it is crime which has been

committed, because there are plenty

of legislation in place to protect

women, if some feels that they have

been harassed, they have been

treated inappropriately or attacked

or whatever, there is illegal

because for them to call the police

and get them involved. 30 years ago,

it was custom and practice for a man

to knock his wife about. Domestic

violence was done to the carpet.

But

that has not been changed by calling

the police, it has been changed by

public opinion saying it will not be

tolerated.

The law changed.

I think

one way could be solved is looking

for the nondisclosure argument. If

there is a sexual violence case more

than once, the nondisclosure case

should not be upheld.

Let me bring

this back to this evening where we

started the show with the

resignation of one Cabinet minister,

for something, he did not explain

what, but something which happened

in the past. Is it right that men

should now be resigning for actions

which happened in the past, he says

in a different culture?

Yes.

The

panel all agrees.

They should face

the consequences.

And if we see a

raft of resignations right across

the board, that is a good thing?

Yes.

Women need to take appropriate

action, if they feel they have been

harassed or offended.

Why are you

always putting the onus on women? We

should be educating men about what

is acceptable and what is not. I

went to an all boys school. We were

not properly told what we should and

should not be doing.

I don't

disagree with you.

We as a group of

men are trying to define what women

are feeling. We cannot do that. We

cannot talk for women. It is utterly

impossible. Why are we trying to say

what is harassment? Why are we not

asking victims of rape and

harassment?

Have women got to be

more resilient with how they deal

with cases of sexual harassment or

would you say now, it is all to do

with our behaviour as men? You would

say your behaviour.

In the majority

of cases where the man is known to

the woman, such as a family member,

friend, work colleague or something,

a simple no is usually enough.

Defending on the offence --

depending on the offence.

I do know

what you're saying but I do think

that it absolutely has to begin with

the offending behaviour of the man.

When I talk about empowering a

woman, if you want to call it that,

that is an add-on to this discussion

but it is central to it. You are

right, no man can speak for women

generally but no woman can speak for

women generally. Every person should

be allowed to say what happened to

them and how they stopped and the

thing I am passionate about

achieving is that they have a

structure and support which works

for them.

Back to the idea of social

media, there is a great transparency

in the way victims are feeling, we

would not be having this discussion

if it had not been for things which

have come through Twitter.

So a last

thought, do you think this is now

something which has changed

irrevocably or will this hit a peak

and quietly fade away? Who think

something has fundamentally changed

in the waters now?

I just want to

say from a male perspective, the

male suicide rate is through the

roof and ADHD is more current in

men. We are suppressing our motion,

we are not creating forces in the

male community to be open and honest

and caring and nurturing with each

other, or, because we have a society

which mocks men for being weak and

vulnerable and that needs to change.

Do you know what, we need to leave

it there. We have devoted this one

programme to this topic but I have a

feeling we will do it everyday for

the next of months. There is

agreement between the sexes and

plenty of battles between the sexes

as well.

Thank you to our panel of

commentators. Kirsty will be here

tomorrow. Thank you for watching.

Good night.

Good night.