10/11/2017 Newsnight

Well, we have a firm date,

but right now do we have deadlock,

especially over the question

of the Irish border?

We speak to the former

Taoiseach and an architect

of the Good Friday Agreement.

If you put a physical border back

across the island of Ireland,

you're certainly giving a huge

incentive to those

that want to cause mischief.

Tonight, after Boris' big mistake,

what is life like in prison

for Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe?

Her husband speaks to

another woman who was

incarcerated in Evin Prison.

I was arrested twice. And both

times, I was put in solitary

confinement in Evin Prison.

Letters to a female Labour MP

which may spell even more trouble

for fellow MP Kelvin Hopkins,

already suspended from the party

for sexual harassment claims.

And, to discuss another torrid

week for the government,

I'm joined by our political panel.

Good evening.

Today we passed the halfway point in

Brexit negotiations.

In 504 days and

28 minutes, we will exit the EU.

There has been a definite ramping up

of the tension in the Brexit

negotiations and the stakes when it

comes to Ireland's future.

Yes, the EU is demanding that the UK

spell out what it will pay Brussels

when it leaves in 2019 in two weeks

or face more delay in talks

on future trade ties,

but it is the EU's insistance

on an "all island approach"

for Ireland where there appears

to be most friction tonight.

And that friction also extends

to relations between the Government

and their partners, the DUP.

So is this an intractable

problem that could scupper

the whole negotiations?

Here's Chris Cook.

The hardest question in the Brexit

talks is about Northern Ireland.

Money remains a major sticking point

in the negotiations, but we know how

we can fix that. There is no simple

way out of the Irish question. Let

us say Britain is no longer in a

customs union with the European

Union. That will let us strike trade

deals with third countries who have

no similar deal with the EU. But the

EU needs to be able to stop goods

from that third country flowing into

Northern Ireland and then into the

EU via the Republic. Further, what

if we decide to divert from EU

rules, so goods in our markets no

longer meet all EU standards?

Ireland need to be able to check

stuff and may be turned back before

it gets into the market. So they

need a border. Now, everyone says

they want to avoid that. A hard

border would be a major economic

burden, especially for farmers, and

could undermine the peace process.

The EU appears to be shifting

position. In September, they said

the onus to propose solutions which

overcome the challenges created on

the island of Ireland remains on the

United Kingdom. A solution was up to

us. There has been talk of answers

involving Customs technology and

clever application of EU rules. We

want to be smart border that no one

would notice. But a leaked document

from the European Commission has

shown a changing tack, saying it is

essential for the UK to commit to

ensuring no emergence of regulatory

divergence from those rules of the

internal market and the customs

union in Northern Ireland. That is

significant, a radical idea that has

been pressed by Dublin is now

seemingly the preferred plan of

Brussels. This would be a big deal.

Northern Ireland would in effect be

treated as part of the EU customs

union and single market to eliminate

the idea for a hard border, but that

would require four in effect customs

arrangements of goods travelling

between Great Britain and Northern

Ireland, something the UK says is

unacceptable.

We respect the

European Union desire to protect the

legal order of the single market and

the customs union, but that cannot

come at a cost of the constitutional

and economic integrity of the United

Kingdom.

So could a British

government reliant on DUP virtually

separate Northern Ireland from the

rest of the UK? If not, it needs to

find a plausible plan to make that

border as soft as possible. Dublin

has a veto on taking talks forward,

and on any final trade deal.

A short time ago, I spoke to

the former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern.

He was one of the architects

of the Good Friday agreement

along with Tony Blair and served

as the head of the Irish Government

for over a decade.

I began by asking him

whether he thought a hard border

between the Republic of Ireland

and the North was now inevitable.

Well, I think the issue is fairly

clear that it's impossible

to have an invisible border,

or a border that is controlled

by technology, if you are not

in the single market.

The argument today is that the EU

have come to the conclusion,

after 12 months of looking at this,

that they believe that to stay

in the single market,

and to stay in the customs union

is the only way you can

avoid totally a border.

Of course, the difficulty for

that is that the British government

don't agree with that and the DUP

don't agree with that.

The Irish government do.

It is a difficult position and I'm

afraid nobody has worked out how

you can get the circle to work

and cover everybody's point of view.

But do you think the government

in Dublin is foursquare behind

the other European countries'

position on this?

Yes, there is no doubt about that.

I think throughout the negotiations

right throughout this year,

the EU position is one position

and the Irish government

are locked into that.

Are you telling me that the Republic

of Ireland would vote with other EU

countries for a deal that

included a hard border,

and all the implications of that?

No, I think it's just not feasible

for the Republic of Ireland to agree

to the reinstallation of a hard

border after 20 years.

The ramifications of it from trade

and business, from agriculture,

from all of our other sectors

of industry big and small,

are bad enough, but the difficulties

for the ongoing peace process,

we have enough problems with that,

but for the Irish government

to agree to putting back a border

is not something that

is likely to happen.

So in your view, then,

the only way to work this

is to have an internal border

in the UK to take in

ports and airports?

Well, you know, the one great

thing about Europe is,

it has always been good at finding

solutions to complex issues.

Sometimes people say

they fudge these issues,

but I think that's unfair.

I think over the last 40 years,

many difficult situations,

they have found ways

of formulating solutions.

And this issue of the Irish border

has been well and truly discussed.

You of all people, then,

might know what might

happen on a hard border,

you know, a former

Taoiseach and architect

of the Good Friday Agreement.

What would be the impact

on peace, a hard-won peace

in Ireland with a hard border?

I think it would be

a huge setback for us.

The idea of putting customs checks

up and security checks,

I don't think we will ever go back

to the watchtowers or the huge

security presence, I don't think

anyone is suggesting that

and I don't think that will happen.

But the idea of having anything,

at the moment, I can leave my house

in Dublin and be in Belfast

in an hour, 40 minutes.

You don't see a security

person anywhere.

And you have traffic duty now

and again, but there are no

difficulties or problems.

To go back into putting the physical

border back in place in any way,

it will undermine, I think,

so much of what our successive

governments have done

from Tony Blair and my time.

Of course, the people

who have been drinking

the champagne will be dissidents,

because they will see

this as great for them,

it will give them a target again,

and it just would be so disastrous.

The amount of effort that has

been put in by so many

people to avoid that,

and to consider going back

to that is unbelievable.

I don't think anyone wants to do it.

You are saying that might lead

inevitably to a return to violence?

I don't think so.

I think 98 or 99% of people

on the island of Ireland

on all sides do not want to go back

to violence, but I have to say,

if you wanted to try and find a way

of giving those who want to do it,

and there is the 1%,

that 1% can be very dangerous,

we see it all over the world,

you don't need many people to cause

mayhem and destruction

and devastation, so you certainly,

if you put a physical border back

across the island of Ireland,

you're certainly giving the huge

incentives to those

who want to cause mischief.

Is there a scenario here

that is more likely to lead

to the reunification of Ireland?

I think that issue is now more

on the agenda than it was before.

As a result of Brexit?

Yes, from the result of Brexit.

And there are more people debating

it in college debates now.

I know, I've been asked

to several of them.

People are actively looking

at what shape would it be,

how would it happen?

My own view is that there will be

a time to discuss that.

It's not now, because we still have

the institutions not up and running.

We still have too much

of an unsettled climate

to be having votes on it,

but I think inevitably

in the Good Friday Agreement,

a border poll is part of the clauses

in it, and I think

Brexit brings it closer.

Closer but not too

close, in my view.

In a way, the Republic of Ireland

should understand the majority

decision in the UK to take back

what they see as

sovereignty from the EU.

Do you respect that decision?

Of course we respect that decision.

You are entitled, or the UK

were entitled to have the vote,

and they have made that decision.

But I think the UK have

to understand that by making that

decision, they have made a hell

of a mess for us, and they have

an obligation and responsibility

to help us find a solution,

and so far on the border issue,

they haven't done that.

Bertie Ahern, thank

you for joining us tonight.

The MP Kelvin Hopkins,

who was suspended from the Labour

Party

over claims of sexual

harassment, tonight faces

further allegations,

this time from the Labour MP

Kerry McCarthy.

She says she is speaking out

to support Ava Etemadzadeh,

who asserted that Hopkins

sent her an inappropriate text

and rubbed his crotch against her,

accusations that he denies.

Kerry McCarthy, who says Hopkins

began paying her unwanted attention

in 1994, and continued to do so less

than two years ago,

has produced a cache

of letters and cards from him.

Chris Cook is here.

What is this all about?

One of the

things Kerry McCarthy has said this

evening is that the problems with

Kelvin Hopkins, as she relates them,

were not very tangible. "If I told

anyone, it would just be gossip

instead of a complaint"

anyone, it would just be gossip

instead of a complaint". But it is

inappropriate, the way he has

behaved. She has come up with stuff

that she feels is germane to the

investigation into the conduct of Mr

Hopkins, now an independent MP since

Labour suspended him. We have one of

the letters here. Here is a quote

from it. He sent her a note while

she was a sitting MP. "I Dreamt

about you the following night, a

night dream -- nice dream. You

remain a very attractive woman". Mr

Hopkins himself has said that if Ms

McCarthy had raised a complaint with

the Labour Party in the normal and

fairway, he would of course

cooperate with any investigation.

But he appealed on behalf of himself

and other individuals and their

families that these matters should

be dealt with by proper due process

and not what he describes as an

unfair trial by media.

Chris,

thanks.

Boris Johnson has been

in the headlines and the heat

for his dreadful gaffe

about the British Iranian prisoner

Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe,

opining that she was training

journalists in Iran

rather than on holiday

visiting her parents.

His words, no matter his retraction,

may result in an increase

in her five-year

sentence in Evin Prison.

But what about Nazanin

herself in all this?

How do we know what she is

going through just now?

John Sweeney has been talking

to other women who have been

imprisoned by the Iranian regime.

I last saw Nazanin when she

travelled in March 2016. This man's

wife is incarcerated inside one of

the worst prisons on earth.

Nice to

meet you.

This woman knows what it's

like, because she has spent time

there, twice. What was it like?

It

was not easy to go there when you

had not done anything wrong. I was

put in solitary confinement for a

few weeks. I was arrested twice.

Both of the times, I spent the whole

time in solitary confinement.

Was

the hardest thing about being in

solitary confinement?

The most

difficult thing is, you are left

alone there for days and for some

prisoners for months, by yourself.

The most striking thing is how to

spend the time.

Richard Ratcliffe's

wife, Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, was

visiting her mum and dad in Iran

with their little girl, Gabriella,

when they were seized by

Revolutionary guards last year. She

is serving five years for allegedly

trying to topple the regime. Then

the clown Prince of British politics

put his foot in it.

If we look at

what Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe was

doing, it was just, she was simply

teaching people journalism, as I

understand it.

The regime has leapt

on Boris' mistake as proof of

Nazanin's guilt.

TRANSLATION: Boris

Johnson's unplanned admission that

some Iranian journalists were taught

by Nazanin was a gaffe that the UK

Government could and cover-up.

Boris

may be in trouble, but what is life

like for Nazanin inside Evin Prison?

She has undergone solitary

confinement. It is usually made

worse by extreme sensory

deprivation, known in Iran as white

torture.

You put inside a cell so you are

given two blankets.

This woman knows

what it is like only too well.

There

is a light here up to the roof which

is a very bright light. It is on for

24 hours. So you have to get used to

sleep under a very, very bright

light. And you have to remain silent

all the time.

What was the longest

time you spent inside the cell

without talking to a human being?

Ten days. I remember when my

interrogator called me, he told me

that it's been quite a long time

that you have not been interrogated,

isn't it? And I said, yes. He said

that's why I'm now calling you

because he said I know that your

concentration is not good. You would

need someone to talk, and he was

right.

Another Evin white torture

veteran is a journalist. His memoir

inspired John Stewart's film Ros

Water.

I'm not sure what they want

for Nazanin's release but I'm sure

they want something in return. The

worst kind of psychological torture

for Nazanin is being away from her

daughter, who's in the same city as

her, but she cannot see her. Just to

imagine for a mother not to be able

to see her young daughter, that must

be intolerable.

Labour cannot cry

shame too loud. Jeremy Corbyn took

£20,000 from Iran press TV,

appearing on the channel. But

incredibly, after more than a year

in the job, Britain's Foreign

Secretary has yet to meet Richard

Ratcliffe. Why hasn't he met you?

It's a good question. I think the

Foreign Office is always trying to

downplay Nazanin's case. They have

said behind closed doors keeping

quiet is the best thing and we have

always had tension where I have said

listen, I think putting it out in

the media, this is an injustice, the

clearly this is stated to a wider

audience, the more that will win

out.

Boris Johnson can do well to

remember that

politics is not just about who's in,

who's out, who will climb the greasy

pole. It is also about ordinary

people who may find themselves in a

dark place, and if you use the wrong

words, then their lives may be

crushed.

Boris Johnson's poor choice of words

is one problem this week.

I am joined now by Tom Newton Dunn,

the political editor at the Sun,

Polly Mackenzie, Nick Clegg's former

advisor and Stephen Bush,

the New Statemans's special

correspondent.

Good evening to you all. First of

all, let's begin with Bertie Ahern

and the words of warning tonight on

a hard border, and that idea that

there is 1% who could make this very

difficult. Is it your hunch that

like Bertie Ahern, something will

give in the next month on Ireland?

Think this is the worst crisis which

could hit the Brexit talks. This is

between a rock and a hard place now.

There is no way the British

government could succeed two state

system and no reason that Lee over a

car can go back. Leo Varadkar is

under his own political threat from

Sinn Fein. New Irish elections could

come round the corner any minute and

he will lose seats to Sinn Fein who

will beat him up unless he goes

hard.

If he goes hard and the EU

decides to push for this hard border

which she doesn't want, we end up

with their hard border in Northern

Ireland. Will this ever happen?

The

problem is the policy aims can only

be achieved with a hard border. If

you leave the customs union, you

have to have a border check. The

fact that at some point there will

be an election means it is never in

the override car's interest to turn

around to the government and go...

You could have predicted in a way

that this would happen because it

was never going to fly?

People did

predict. And ever since the

referendum people have been

explaining it is not possible

without putting a hard border in the

Irish Sea or between Northern

Ireland and Ireland and that is

politically unstable. Theresa May is

reliant on the DUP for her majority

and they have a fixed position.

At

the beginning there was no sense

when Theresa May called an election

there was no sense that she would

end up in thrall to the DUP?

It is

not just about the DUP. There is a

strong majority of about 50 or 60

Tory MPs who could not allow a two

state system, it is not about the

DUP. It is unconscionable for a

British Prime Minister to halve the

Northern Ireland under control...

But they come up with wacky ideas

suggesting that block chain will fix

the problem.

Ultimately, the success

of peace in Northern Ireland was

about parking the issue and allowing

people in Northern Ireland to have

an identity and they could be as

British as they liked or as Irish as

they liked. The second we voted to

leave, that was torn apart forever.

And then we have as Polly said,

these essentially science-fiction

solutions have been coming out.

We

have obviously had another issue

tonight with allegations about

Kelvin Hopkins, is there a sense now

at Westminster, and particularly for

the younger generation, that they

are per to speak out and have

courage and are getting courage from

other people?

Yes, I think

particularly there is a sense among

the younger generation. People feel

that now was the moment that things

might actually be changing. We are

seeing how things are changing in

Hollywood, and this is the moment

when the opportunity to change the

structures and Westminster can be

seized.

There is a particular

problem for Theresa May because we

are awaiting the investigation into

Damian Green which brings us onto

her hold over Cabinet if indeed she

does have a hold over Cabinet?

No,

she doesn't and this week has proved

that beyond doubt. It is easy for

political hacks like us to draw

grand sweeping conclusions and

linking themes like the poor run of

luck Theresa May is having. But

there is quite simply a catastrophic

collapse of authority. If you have a

Prime Minister that no one scared

off, nobody gives two stuffs, you

will do your anything, you will be

freelance on your policy on Israel,

you will not read your brief before

you go in front of the select

committee like Boris Johnson and the

real question is how many tank mines

are left unexploded?

But it shows a

disregard for the electorate as that

is it another form of the

Westminster arrogance not to read

your brief and not to care enough?

I

think it is extraordinary. While

there were criticisms that the bar

was set too low and people were

resigning over sexual harassment

which was just a hand on a knee, but

now it has shot up. And predict

Hell, day after revelations have got

worse and worse, only days later

that she do the honourable thing and

resign -- and Priti Patel.

At the

moment she cannot afford in the

middle of Brexit to start moving

many chess pieces around?

I think

she has more power than she thinks.

The one thing she has got going for

her is the fear of Corbyn in the

Conservative Party. There may be

more accusations of sleaze out

there.

And she knows her new Defence

Secretary Gavin Williamson may know

more from becoming from Chief Whip.

There is just a nightmare for her.

She has been captured by her own

timidity in a way.

What has happened

in the last week or two is the

balance has thrown from timidity to

they have nothing to lose.

Let's

turn to Boris. Endless stories about

Boris' demise have gone on for so

long, but there was a complete

disregard this week, it was not just

a slip, not even bothering to read

the brief. Would Theresa May like to

get rid of Boris if she could, or

actually, is there a funny way that

she can contain him more inside than

out?

He's better inside the tent

still. Although he is annoying in

his brief, he can't start saying I

think Universal Credit is bad...

There is Cabinet responsibility sort

of. Fun sort of is better than

nothing at all. He does not have

much of a following so he could not

upset the apple cart but he is

someone who would start saying

things that new statements readers

would agree with -- New Statesman

readers would agree with.

How is he regarded by the party now?

I think a lot of the shine has come

off the figure of fun, someone who

would be the witty standard-bearer

for conservatism. A lot of people

have now shifted to Jacob Rees-Mogg

is that have I got News for you

friendly Tory.

The times splash is

about a Canadian who was inside Evin

prison as well and she and her child

were both hooded. The more you hear

about this the more you realise how

dangerous Boris pottery words were?

Yes and no. I don't think this will

get Boris. I will put my hat on the

table and be prepared to eat it when

it is made of marzipan at a later

stage. Boris screwed up but it is

still the Iranians who are hooding

three rolled children when they go

and meet their mother who is also

hooded. As time has elapsed people

are using Boris's idiocy for their

own disgrace the lens.

Is he safe?

I

think he is safe. You cannot have a

Foreign Secretary whose idiocy makes

it easier for the Iranians or any

other nation to endanger British

citizens. It is surely in the job

description not to do that.

In the

New Year do think Theresa May will

still be in position, Polly?

It all

depends on the Budget.

Stephen?

Yes,

I think she will.

Budget and then

she has got to move onto trade

talks. Then she has to do with a

reshuffle. If you does it all by

January the 10th, she will live on.

Thank you.

Time now for Viewsnight -

when we give original thinkers

the space to challenge and push

the boundaries of orthodox thinking.

Tonight, Stanford

Professor Niall Ferguson ,

with his take on who should get

to decide what we can read

Niall Ferguson.

Just before we go, this

has been equal pay day.

But we've a long way to go,

so by rights for many women,

this should be the last day

they work this year.

But lest we forget, here's

a reminder of where we've come from.

MUSIC: Just A Girl by No Doubt.

# Take this pink ribbon off my eyes.

# I'm exposed and it's

no big surprise.

# Don't you think I know

exactly where I stand...

How far are you prepared to go?

As far as it takes.

# Cos I'm just a girl,

little ol' me...

A few years ago, it was a joke.

People laughed at us.

They don't laugh at us any more.

# Oh, I'm just a girl,

all pretty and petite

# So don't let me have any rights...

It is International Women's Day

today,

and you've sent a male

to interview me

and a male cameraman.

Where are your women

cameramen at the BBC?