Browse content similar to 13/11/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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The village of Tula Toli,
in Rakhine Province in Mynamar. | 0:00:05 | 0:00:09 | |
On August 30 this year,
a massacre occurred there. | 0:00:09 | 0:00:12 | |
We've pieced together what happened. | 0:00:12 | 0:00:20 | |
It's just one example
of the violence that has led | 0:00:31 | 0:00:33 | |
to a huge exodus of Rohingya
Muslims, out of Myanmar. | 0:00:33 | 0:00:38 | |
The people of Tula Toli had seen
neighbouring villages burn, | 0:00:38 | 0:00:40 | |
but thought they were safe. | 0:00:40 | 0:00:43 | |
It's been called a textbook case
of ethnic cleansing. | 0:00:53 | 0:00:55 | |
When you see the testimony,
you might think it is | 0:00:55 | 0:00:58 | |
rather more than that. | 0:00:58 | 0:01:00 | |
Also tonight, the Brexit
Secretary, David Davis, | 0:01:00 | 0:01:04 | |
promises a Commons vote
on the final deal. | 0:01:04 | 0:01:07 | |
So what happens if the
Government loses that vote? | 0:01:07 | 0:01:12 | |
We're talking crisis for the
Government and an exit with | 0:01:12 | 0:01:25 | |
unless Tory rebels can challenge
Theresa May in one key area. | 0:01:25 | 0:01:31 | |
Hello. | 0:01:31 | 0:01:32 | |
It would be nice to think that
in the modern age ethnic cleansing | 0:01:32 | 0:01:35 | |
and religious massacres
no longer occur. | 0:01:35 | 0:01:36 | |
After all, the world has shrunk. | 0:01:36 | 0:01:38 | |
We all know what's
going on these days. | 0:01:38 | 0:01:40 | |
Despots have fewer secrets
than they used to. | 0:01:40 | 0:01:43 | |
They are surely shamed or scared
by international law from kicking | 0:01:43 | 0:01:45 | |
people out of their homes
or standing by while | 0:01:45 | 0:01:48 | |
they are murdered. | 0:01:48 | 0:01:49 | |
It would also be nice to think that
as democracy spreads, so does | 0:01:49 | 0:01:52 | |
civility and the rule of law. | 0:01:52 | 0:01:53 | |
And that's why events this year
in Myanmar have been such a shock. | 0:01:53 | 0:01:56 | |
Although the country has returned
to a degree of democracy, | 0:01:56 | 0:01:59 | |
since August, 615,000 people
of the Rohingya Muslim minority have | 0:01:59 | 0:02:01 | |
fled the country to Bangladesh. | 0:02:01 | 0:02:08 | |
They come with shocking stories
of the treatment meted out back home | 0:02:08 | 0:02:11 | |
in Myanmar's Rakhine province. | 0:02:11 | 0:02:15 | |
It's no wonder they have left. | 0:02:15 | 0:02:17 | |
The plight of the Rohingya
was highlighted by the Prime | 0:02:17 | 0:02:20 | |
Minister, Theresa May,
in her Mansion House speech tonight. | 0:02:20 | 0:02:24 | |
This is a major humanitarian crisis,
which looks like ethnic cleansing, | 0:02:24 | 0:02:29 | |
and it is something
for which the Burmese authorities | 0:02:29 | 0:02:32 | |
and especially the military must
take full responsibility. | 0:02:32 | 0:02:37 | |
Well, in a moment, we'll see
a deeply disturbing film | 0:02:37 | 0:02:39 | |
from Gabriel Gatehouse on some
of the testimony of the refugees, | 0:02:39 | 0:02:42 | |
on the fate of one
village in Rakhine. | 0:02:42 | 0:02:46 | |
But before we do, let's just
just get some background | 0:02:46 | 0:02:48 | |
to the problems there. | 0:02:48 | 0:02:49 | |
First the numbers: | 0:02:49 | 0:02:52 | |
Myanmar is a country
of 55 million people. | 0:02:52 | 0:02:55 | |
Although ethnically divided,
the Buddhist religion provides some | 0:02:55 | 0:02:59 | |
form of unifying identity
to the bulk of the population - | 0:02:59 | 0:03:03 | |
88% or so. | 0:03:03 | 0:03:06 | |
Muslims are a small minority. | 0:03:06 | 0:03:08 | |
In 2015, there were about a million
Rohingya Muslims, a mere 2% | 0:03:08 | 0:03:11 | |
of the Mynamar population. | 0:03:11 | 0:03:15 | |
But in Rakhine province itself -
or Arakan as it is also known - | 0:03:15 | 0:03:19 | |
if the Rohingya were all allowed
back, they'd probably | 0:03:19 | 0:03:21 | |
be the majority. | 0:03:21 | 0:03:24 | |
The history of ethnic tension
between Rakhine Buddhists | 0:03:24 | 0:03:28 | |
and Rohingya Muslims
goes back centuries, | 0:03:28 | 0:03:31 | |
not improved, by the way, | 0:03:31 | 0:03:33 | |
by British Colonial rule. | 0:03:33 | 0:03:38 | |
Scenes as appalling as any refugee
crisis I've ever witnessed. | 0:03:38 | 0:03:43 | |
In the post-war era,
with Myanmar independent, | 0:03:43 | 0:03:44 | |
there have been sporadic
outbreaks of trouble. | 0:03:44 | 0:03:46 | |
Rohingyas have often aspired
to secede from Myanmar, | 0:03:46 | 0:03:49 | |
but separation is an idea
that was greeted with virulent | 0:03:49 | 0:03:53 | |
hostility by the country's
numerous military rulers. | 0:03:53 | 0:03:56 | |
They stripped the Rohingya
of citizenship in 1982 | 0:03:56 | 0:03:59 | |
making them stateless. | 0:03:59 | 0:04:02 | |
The latest trouble dates
back to August 25. | 0:04:02 | 0:04:05 | |
A Rohingya group -
call them militants or insurgents - | 0:04:05 | 0:04:10 | |
attacked police and army posts. | 0:04:10 | 0:04:12 | |
The response has been harsh,
creating the huge exodus | 0:04:12 | 0:04:16 | |
that's occurred this year. | 0:04:16 | 0:04:19 | |
We'll see Gabriel's film
in a moment, but he's with me now. | 0:04:19 | 0:04:22 | |
People will see a film that's
extremely important. Just give us a | 0:04:22 | 0:04:27 | |
little background, tell us about
this one village. This massacre is a | 0:04:27 | 0:04:34 | |
massacre of such horrifying
proportions, such horrific brutality | 0:04:34 | 0:04:37 | |
that it merits investigation in its
own right. I've reported on Islamic | 0:04:37 | 0:04:41 | |
State in Syria and Iraq, but none of
that really comes close. This is by | 0:04:41 | 0:04:45 | |
far the most disturbing story I've
ever covered. We're talking about | 0:04:45 | 0:04:49 | |
mass murder, mass rape. The killing
of infants and of children. But it's | 0:04:49 | 0:04:53 | |
not an isolated case. This is the
kind of thing that has been going on | 0:04:53 | 0:04:59 | |
throughout northern Rakhine State
since the end of August and indeed | 0:04:59 | 0:05:02 | |
continues in some places to go on to
this day. We're talking about whole | 0:05:02 | 0:05:08 | |
villages being burned, razed, ethnic
cleansing in effect. This is | 0:05:08 | 0:05:11 | |
violence that is perpetrated against
a people who, in any case, have few | 0:05:11 | 0:05:16 | |
of the rights, basic rights that
human beings, normal human beings | 0:05:16 | 0:05:21 | |
would expect, besides being denied
citizenship, they're denied the | 0:05:21 | 0:05:24 | |
right to vote. They're denied decent
health care, decent education. | 0:05:24 | 0:05:29 | |
They're even denied the right to
travel freely inside their own | 0:05:29 | 0:05:32 | |
country. This is violence that's
perpetrated by a government that is | 0:05:32 | 0:05:36 | |
led by somebody who's been awarded
the Nobel Peace Prize. Now it's | 0:05:36 | 0:05:40 | |
difficult to report from inside
Myanmar, the Burmese government | 0:05:40 | 0:05:45 | |
doesn't allow independent access to
the affected areas. Certainly it | 0:05:45 | 0:05:48 | |
would be impossible to get
meaningful access to the village | 0:05:48 | 0:05:51 | |
we're talking about. So we travelled
to Bangladesh and collected | 0:05:51 | 0:05:56 | |
testimony in the camps there, where
the survivors of this massacre have | 0:05:56 | 0:06:01 | |
sought refuge. Just to warn you
again, our report contains extremely | 0:06:01 | 0:06:06 | |
disturbing images, very disturbing
testimony and graphic descriptions | 0:06:06 | 0:06:09 | |
of sexual violence. | 0:06:09 | 0:06:16 | |
These people have just
crossed the border. | 0:07:15 | 0:07:18 | |
They are in no-man's land. | 0:07:18 | 0:07:19 | |
They have been driven
from their homes in Myanmar, | 0:07:19 | 0:07:23 | |
now they are waiting for permission
to enter Bangladesh. | 0:07:23 | 0:07:28 | |
The Rohingya are a people that
neither country wants. | 0:07:28 | 0:07:33 | |
What happened in your village? | 0:07:33 | 0:07:38 | |
They just burned our houses. | 0:07:40 | 0:07:44 | |
These are some of the survivors,
they are hungry, they are sick, | 0:07:44 | 0:07:47 | |
and they are scared. | 0:07:47 | 0:07:48 | |
Across the river, there
is a deliberate campaign | 0:07:48 | 0:07:52 | |
of terror going on. | 0:07:52 | 0:07:55 | |
A campaign from
which no-one is safe. | 0:07:55 | 0:07:59 | |
We don't know how many
people have been killed, | 0:07:59 | 0:08:05 | |
but we do have some idea of how many
have been burnt and chased out | 0:08:05 | 0:08:11 | |
of their homes, these are just
the tiny fraction of the hundreds | 0:08:11 | 0:08:14 | |
and hundreds of thousands
of people, who have fled. | 0:08:14 | 0:08:18 | |
In our investigation,
we are going to focus | 0:08:18 | 0:08:24 | |
on the events of one day,
of one massacre, in one village. | 0:08:24 | 0:08:26 | |
Its name is Tula Toli. | 0:08:26 | 0:08:31 | |
Since August, more than 600,000
people have sought refuge | 0:08:31 | 0:08:35 | |
in the camps in Bangladesh. | 0:08:35 | 0:08:39 | |
People who brought little with them,
but the nightmarish memories | 0:08:39 | 0:08:43 | |
of their experiences at the hands
of the Burmese military. | 0:08:43 | 0:08:49 | |
We have come here, to find survivors
of the Tula Toli massacre. | 0:08:49 | 0:08:53 | |
We have spoken to six of them,
we have cross references | 0:08:53 | 0:08:58 | |
their testimony with video evidence. | 0:08:58 | 0:09:00 | |
Absolutely horrific pictures. | 0:09:00 | 0:09:03 | |
With maps of the local area,
as well as with interviews collected | 0:09:03 | 0:09:06 | |
by human rights organisations. | 0:09:06 | 0:09:09 | |
What emerges is a picture
of systematic violence. | 0:09:09 | 0:09:13 | |
Violence that has been described
as a text book example | 0:09:13 | 0:09:19 | |
of ethnic cleansing. | 0:09:19 | 0:09:22 | |
Using a satellite photograph
of the area, a Rohingya elder | 0:09:40 | 0:09:43 | |
showed me how the massacre unfolded. | 0:09:43 | 0:09:47 | |
The village of Tula Toli consists
of a number of settlements | 0:09:47 | 0:09:51 | |
surrounded on three sides
by the meandering flow of a river. | 0:09:51 | 0:09:56 | |
In previous days soldiers set
fire to other villages | 0:09:56 | 0:09:58 | |
on the opposite bank. | 0:09:58 | 0:10:01 | |
That Wednesday morning, the 30th
August, they crossed into Tula Toli. | 0:10:01 | 0:10:05 | |
There was panic. | 0:10:05 | 0:10:09 | |
Everyone mentions the river. | 0:10:42 | 0:10:44 | |
With the soldiers advancing
from the north-west, | 0:10:44 | 0:10:47 | |
and a police post to the south,
many of the villagers ran east, | 0:10:47 | 0:10:50 | |
they ended up on the river bank. | 0:10:50 | 0:10:52 | |
They were trapped. | 0:10:52 | 0:10:58 | |
And yourself were on the other
side of the river? | 0:11:46 | 0:11:49 | |
This woman showed us
where she and others swam | 0:11:49 | 0:11:52 | |
across the river at a point
downstream where it was | 0:11:52 | 0:11:55 | |
narrow enough to cross. | 0:11:55 | 0:11:58 | |
They used banana trees and plastic
canisters as liferafts. | 0:11:58 | 0:12:02 | |
Did you see this with your own eyes? | 0:12:02 | 0:12:05 | |
From a hill on the opposite bank,
they watched the horror unfold. | 0:12:10 | 0:12:15 | |
The horrific scenes she witnessed,
still give her nightmares. | 0:13:02 | 0:13:07 | |
She watched the bodies
of her neighbour's children wash | 0:13:16 | 0:13:22 | |
up on the river bank,
the scene was filmed | 0:13:22 | 0:13:24 | |
by another villager. | 0:13:24 | 0:13:30 | |
The children's names
were Rashida, five years old, | 0:13:32 | 0:13:35 | |
Kushida, three and Zahidia,
who was 11 months. | 0:13:35 | 0:13:42 | |
Anora Begum, her husband
and her four children all managed | 0:13:52 | 0:13:55 | |
to escape with their lives. | 0:13:55 | 0:13:59 | |
Mohammed was not so fortunate. | 0:13:59 | 0:14:02 | |
He and his youngest daughter
survived but three of her | 0:14:02 | 0:14:04 | |
sisters were killed,
and so was their mother. | 0:14:04 | 0:14:08 | |
The violence began five days before
the massacre at Tula Toli, | 0:14:42 | 0:14:45 | |
on the 25th August, when members
of a Rohingya militant group | 0:14:45 | 0:14:50 | |
attacked a number of police posts
inside Myanmar, killing 12. | 0:14:50 | 0:14:53 | |
In response, the Burmese military
began what they called | 0:14:53 | 0:14:55 | |
clearance operations. | 0:14:55 | 0:15:02 | |
Boats filled with refugees have
been coming ever since. | 0:15:02 | 0:15:10 | |
It's two month since the terrible
incidents that we have been looking | 0:15:10 | 0:15:12 | |
at and these people are saying
it is still going on. | 0:15:12 | 0:15:16 | |
Some have accused the Burmese
Government of using the attacks | 0:15:20 | 0:15:23 | |
by the militants as a pretext
for a vicious and indiscrimate | 0:15:23 | 0:15:26 | |
crackdown against civilians. | 0:15:26 | 0:15:36 | |
Bangladeshi authorities monitor
what goes on on the other | 0:15:42 | 0:15:44 | |
side of the border. | 0:15:44 | 0:15:46 | |
And I have been told that
from the beginning of August, | 0:15:46 | 0:15:50 | |
so about three weeks before
the violence started, | 0:15:50 | 0:15:54 | |
they noticed an increase in military
activity on the Myanmar side. | 0:15:54 | 0:15:57 | |
Now, if that is true, that would
suggest an element of preparation | 0:15:57 | 0:16:00 | |
for the violence that followed. | 0:16:00 | 0:16:02 | |
And this is the suggestion
that we have heard corroborated | 0:16:02 | 0:16:06 | |
by some of the witnesses we have
spoken to as well. | 0:16:06 | 0:16:16 | |
We were told an an incident that
happened nearly two weeks before | 0:16:17 | 0:16:19 | |
the massacre at Tula Toli. | 0:16:19 | 0:16:21 | |
Also, before the attacks
by the militant group known | 0:16:21 | 0:16:23 | |
as the Arakan Rohingya Salvation
Army. | 0:16:23 | 0:16:26 | |
Which sparked the response
by the Burmese military. | 0:16:26 | 0:16:36 | |
Were they trying to recruitment
people in the village, | 0:16:55 | 0:16:57 | |
was there some truth to that? | 0:16:57 | 0:17:05 | |
Witnesses said the policemen
were called in by the village | 0:17:05 | 0:17:08 | |
administrator, a local
Buddhist Government official. | 0:17:08 | 0:17:12 | |
A few days later that same
official called a meeting. | 0:17:12 | 0:17:15 | |
Elders from both communities
were asked to sign | 0:17:15 | 0:17:16 | |
a kind of peace treaty. | 0:17:16 | 0:17:20 | |
Was that unusual to be asked to do
something like that? | 0:17:26 | 0:17:31 | |
The Rohingya of Tula Toli saw that
document as an explicit | 0:17:36 | 0:17:39 | |
guarantee of their safety. | 0:17:39 | 0:17:43 | |
It's because of this they stayed
in their homes even when they saw | 0:17:43 | 0:17:47 | |
other villages being burned. | 0:17:47 | 0:17:50 | |
Now they believe the administrator
double crossed them. | 0:17:50 | 0:17:52 | |
Almost everyone we spoke
to mentioned this village | 0:18:07 | 0:18:09 | |
administrator, the local
Government representative. | 0:18:09 | 0:18:10 | |
His name is Singh. | 0:18:10 | 0:18:13 | |
He would accuse the villagers
of supporting the militants some | 0:18:13 | 0:18:16 | |
said, others that he tried to force
them to register as foreigners. | 0:18:16 | 0:18:20 | |
Another village elder,
told me before the massacre | 0:18:20 | 0:18:23 | |
he and Mr Singh had been
in regular contact. | 0:18:23 | 0:18:27 | |
Do you have his phone
number, can you call him? | 0:18:27 | 0:18:35 | |
Human rights investigators
and journalists have been trying | 0:18:36 | 0:18:38 | |
to talk to this man for months. | 0:18:38 | 0:18:41 | |
None have managed to
contact him, until now. | 0:18:41 | 0:18:49 | |
Mr Hussein lost a son and three
grandchildren in the attack. | 0:18:49 | 0:18:53 | |
Now, over a crackly phone line
he accuses the village administrator | 0:18:53 | 0:18:56 | |
of complicity in the massacre. | 0:18:56 | 0:19:06 | |
At the end of the conversation,
Mr Hussein seems unconvinced. | 0:19:51 | 0:19:54 | |
Do you believe him? | 0:19:54 | 0:20:03 | |
The majority of Myanmar's Rohingya
Muslims have by now already fled. | 0:20:09 | 0:20:12 | |
Dispossessed and stateless,
the mud soaked camps | 0:20:12 | 0:20:13 | |
of Bangladesh are what they must,
for now, call home. | 0:20:13 | 0:20:23 | |
The Burmese Government
says its military operation | 0:20:26 | 0:20:28 | |
are a response to attacks
by militants from the | 0:20:28 | 0:20:32 | |
Arakan Rohingya Salvation
Army on 25th August. | 0:20:32 | 0:20:38 | |
But what about those reports
of troop movements weeks earlier? | 0:20:38 | 0:20:43 | |
Well, we are on our way now to meet
an officer in the Bangladeshi border | 0:20:43 | 0:20:46 | |
guard who might know more about this
and might be willing to talk to us. | 0:20:46 | 0:20:50 | |
Hello, Major. | 0:20:50 | 0:20:51 | |
How's it going. | 0:20:51 | 0:20:52 | |
Fine. | 0:20:52 | 0:20:53 | |
Good. | 0:20:53 | 0:20:55 | |
The major said he wasn't authorised
to speak to the BBC on camera | 0:20:55 | 0:20:59 | |
but we did have a conversation off
camera and he said I could quote him | 0:20:59 | 0:21:02 | |
with the following. | 0:21:02 | 0:21:05 | |
They saw from around 5th August
a huge concentration, | 0:21:05 | 0:21:07 | |
his words of Myanmar military
in the border area. | 0:21:07 | 0:21:11 | |
his words, of Myanmar
military in the border area. | 0:21:11 | 0:21:13 | |
He said apart from burning
people's homes they extorted | 0:21:13 | 0:21:16 | |
valuables, took their money. | 0:21:16 | 0:21:17 | |
I asked him what the purpose
of all of this was, he said | 0:21:17 | 0:21:20 | |
they are trying to make the state
Rohingya free. | 0:21:20 | 0:21:25 | |
By late morning on the 30th August,
on the river bank at Tula Toli, | 0:21:25 | 0:21:29 | |
dozens of people had
already been murdered. | 0:21:29 | 0:21:32 | |
But it wasn't over yet. | 0:21:32 | 0:21:35 | |
Some villagers had escaped
by swimming across the river, | 0:21:35 | 0:21:40 | |
but many remained behind,
especially younger women | 0:21:40 | 0:21:41 | |
who had been separated
from the rest by the soldiers. | 0:21:41 | 0:21:44 | |
Those who survived endured an ordeal
of almost unimaginable horror. | 0:21:44 | 0:21:54 | |
Severely burned and wounded,
Mumtaz managed to crawl to safety | 0:23:04 | 0:23:07 | |
and eventually escape under
cover of darkness. | 0:23:07 | 0:23:12 | |
She came to Bangladesh
with her seven-year-old daughter. | 0:23:12 | 0:23:15 | |
Her daughter was beaten
by the soldiers, but survived, | 0:23:15 | 0:23:18 | |
the others did not. | 0:23:18 | 0:23:20 | |
One of her children, she said,
was burned to death. | 0:23:20 | 0:23:27 | |
At least one other survivor
of the Tula Toli massacre has | 0:23:38 | 0:23:40 | |
reported her young child was thrown
into a fire. | 0:23:40 | 0:23:43 | |
Others had infants
torn from their arms. | 0:23:43 | 0:23:53 | |
Mumtaz is only 30 years old. | 0:24:15 | 0:24:17 | |
The men who raped her, who killed
her children, were soldiers. | 0:24:17 | 0:24:23 | |
But she, like others,
told us that non-Rohingya civilians | 0:24:23 | 0:24:26 | |
took part in the attack that day
as well, demanding | 0:24:26 | 0:24:28 | |
money and valuables. | 0:24:28 | 0:24:33 | |
I wondered about the Buddhist
village administrator, | 0:24:46 | 0:24:48 | |
no-one we spoke to said
he personally took part | 0:24:48 | 0:24:50 | |
in the attack, and it seems unlikely
a local civilian official could have | 0:24:50 | 0:24:54 | |
stopped the powerful Burmese
military, but still it felt | 0:24:54 | 0:24:57 | |
like he had questions to answer. | 0:24:57 | 0:25:02 | |
Hello sir, it is the BBC here, just
to say we are recording this call, | 0:25:02 | 0:25:06 | |
can I ask you why did you not warn
the villagers that the army | 0:25:06 | 0:25:09 | |
was going to come in? | 0:25:09 | 0:25:11 | |
The people here say that you wanted
the Rohingya out of the village, | 0:25:11 | 0:25:14 | |
The Burmese Government doesn't
regard the Rohingya Muslims | 0:25:50 | 0:25:52 | |
as citizens of Myanmar. | 0:25:52 | 0:25:55 | |
Stark in the camps in Bangladesh
without official status it will be | 0:25:55 | 0:25:57 | |
hard for them to return home,
even if they felt | 0:25:57 | 0:26:00 | |
it was safe to do so. | 0:26:00 | 0:26:06 | |
The United Nations has called
this ethnic cleansing. | 0:26:06 | 0:26:08 | |
Others prefer the term genocide. | 0:26:08 | 0:26:14 | |
By whatever name you call it,
the massacre at Tula Toli | 0:26:14 | 0:26:17 | |
was a monstrous crime. | 0:26:17 | 0:26:21 | |
A crime that the Burmese Government
is not investigating. | 0:26:21 | 0:26:23 | |
Every evening on the border,
more people try to cross | 0:26:23 | 0:26:25 | |
to safety in Bangladesh,
new arrivals say the villages | 0:26:25 | 0:26:28 | |
are still being burned. | 0:26:28 | 0:26:38 | |
That they are still being chased
and terrorised from their homes. | 0:26:38 | 0:26:41 | |
If it continues like this
there won't be many | 0:26:41 | 0:26:43 | |
Rohingya left in Myanmar. | 0:26:43 | 0:26:47 | |
Gabriel Gatehouse reporting. | 0:26:47 | 0:26:50 | |
And making that film with him,
were producer, James Clayton, | 0:26:50 | 0:26:52 | |
and camerman, Jack Garland. | 0:26:52 | 0:26:53 | |
We did contact the Myanmar embassy
last week to get more | 0:26:53 | 0:26:56 | |
on their side of the story,
but we have not had a response. | 0:26:56 | 0:27:06 | |
And one post script,
to date the UK - that is DFID | 0:27:08 | 0:27:11 | |
using the aid budget -
has committed £47 million to help | 0:27:11 | 0:27:14 | |
ease the situation there. | 0:27:14 | 0:27:15 | |
On Brexit we had an apparent
concession to MPs from | 0:27:15 | 0:27:17 | |
the Government today. | 0:27:17 | 0:27:18 | |
Yes, they'll get a vote
on any Brexit deal. | 0:27:18 | 0:27:20 | |
It'll be in legislation,
enshrined in a Withdrawal Agreement | 0:27:20 | 0:27:23 | |
and Implementation Bill. | 0:27:23 | 0:27:23 | |
The debate now is whether that is
the so-called meaningful vote that | 0:27:23 | 0:27:26 | |
numerous MPs had sought or whether
it is a fake meaningful vote. | 0:27:26 | 0:27:29 | |
Our political editor,
Nick Watt, is with me. | 0:27:29 | 0:27:38 | |
Is that meaningful vote? It guess it
depen on what happened if they vote | 0:27:41 | 0:27:44 | |
no I think I will give you a yes,
but answer, it is meaningful because | 0:27:44 | 0:27:49 | |
we are talking about legislation,
ledge laying could be amended and it | 0:27:49 | 0:27:52 | |
will contrast with the earlier vote
the Government's proposed which is | 0:27:52 | 0:27:55 | |
is a vote on a motion that would
take place on the deal before the | 0:27:55 | 0:27:59 | |
European Parliament gets its vote.
But this piece of legislation would | 0:27:59 | 0:28:02 | |
be like a treaty, there will be a
treaty with the EU, you can't really | 0:28:02 | 0:28:07 | |
amend treaty, because it has been
done. And also David Davis said this | 0:28:07 | 0:28:10 | |
evening if you vote this bill down,
you are voting for a no deal, and | 0:28:10 | 0:28:17 | |
crucially, the pro European Tories
would have lost the one bit of | 0:28:17 | 0:28:21 | |
leverage they would have, if the
Government succeeds in getting on to | 0:28:21 | 0:28:24 | |
the face of the bill, its own amend,
which is to name the date of Brexit. | 0:28:24 | 0:28:31 | |
So that is... That happens unless
you change it They would not be able | 0:28:31 | 0:28:36 | |
to say can we extend. So it is vote
for the Deal or No Deal. Doesn't it | 0:28:36 | 0:28:41 | |
mean that the only way the rebels
can change the Government's mind is | 0:28:41 | 0:28:46 | |
to vote the Government down, is to
treat it as a confidence motion? | 0:28:46 | 0:28:49 | |
Will they treat it as a confidence
motion sand say if this fails the | 0:28:49 | 0:28:53 | |
Government goes? Where we are now
that is the on the way they could do | 0:28:53 | 0:28:57 | |
it. At the moment the Tory rebels
haven't got the numbers, there are | 0:28:57 | 0:29:02 | |
five or six Labour people, MPs who
will vote with the Government, the | 0:29:02 | 0:29:06 | |
Government has a majority of ten. So
the Tory rebels have to be in double | 0:29:06 | 0:29:10 | |
figure, will they be there? I'm not
sure, that is just to amend the | 0:29:10 | 0:29:14 | |
legislation. Bringing down the
Government? They would have to go in | 0:29:14 | 0:29:20 | |
the division lobbies with Jeremy
Corbyn, win a vote of no confidence | 0:29:20 | 0:29:23 | |
and what? Give him two weeks to try
and form a government. I don't think | 0:29:23 | 0:29:27 | |
any Tory MP would do that. Last one,
if it is not impossible that we will | 0:29:27 | 0:29:32 | |
be often a take it or leave it deal
by the EU at the end of it all and | 0:29:32 | 0:29:36 | |
the Government will say we want the
leave it, it is a bad deal. Is there | 0:29:36 | 0:29:39 | |
any way MPs can say hang on a
minute, you can't say no, we would | 0:29:39 | 0:29:42 | |
like to say yes to that deal. Can
they kind of, can the EU reach over | 0:29:42 | 0:29:47 | |
the head of Government to give our
MPs a deal that the Government don't | 0:29:47 | 0:29:51 | |
want. ? Remember that the Government
controls the legislative time | 0:29:51 | 0:29:54 | |
Northern Ireland Assembly the House
of Commons, and this is a minority | 0:29:54 | 0:29:59 | |
Conservative administration but they
do have the support of the DUP. Ten | 0:29:59 | 0:30:02 | |
votes in the bag because the DUP do
not want to see Jeremy Corbyn as | 0:30:02 | 0:30:06 | |
Prime Minister, buzz you have right,
the EU is thinking of doing that, | 0:30:06 | 0:30:09 | |
because they are sensing weakness. | 0:30:09 | 0:30:13 | |
Often on programmes like this,
we talk about the world | 0:30:13 | 0:30:16 | |
as if it is a rational place. | 0:30:16 | 0:30:18 | |
We query policy decisions as though
people have thought about them | 0:30:18 | 0:30:20 | |
logically. | 0:30:20 | 0:30:22 | |
Often they have, but in
the last few decades, | 0:30:22 | 0:30:24 | |
we have more than ever come
to realise that human thought is far | 0:30:24 | 0:30:28 | |
from rational and is subject
to all sorts of human error. | 0:30:28 | 0:30:30 | |
We have cognitive biases
that sway our thinking, | 0:30:30 | 0:30:32 | |
just as Spock used to
tell us in Star Trek. | 0:30:32 | 0:30:35 | |
Apart from him, it was two Israeli
psychologists who worked | 0:30:35 | 0:30:37 | |
together in the '70s and '80s,
who did more than anyone | 0:30:37 | 0:30:41 | |
to promote our understanding
of our irrational side. | 0:30:41 | 0:30:43 | |
And their collaboration
makes a fascinating | 0:30:43 | 0:30:46 | |
story in its own right. | 0:30:46 | 0:30:49 | |
It's been told in a book called
The Undoing Project by the acclaimed | 0:30:49 | 0:30:52 | |
US writer Michael Lewis,
the man behind the Big Short and | 0:30:52 | 0:30:55 | |
Moneyball among other blockbusters. | 0:30:55 | 0:30:58 | |
I met up with him this morning,
to talk about the world today, | 0:30:58 | 0:31:01 | |
cognitive biases, and those two
Israeli psychologists who most | 0:31:01 | 0:31:03 | |
people have probably not heard of. | 0:31:03 | 0:31:08 | |
So I forgive people
who haven't heard of them, | 0:31:08 | 0:31:10 | |
because I hadn't heard of them. | 0:31:10 | 0:31:13 | |
Danny would be best known for having
one won the noble prize | 0:31:13 | 0:31:15 | |
in economics in 2002. | 0:31:15 | 0:31:17 | |
Despite not being an economist. | 0:31:17 | 0:31:20 | |
There were two psychologists,
who met in the late 60s, | 0:31:20 | 0:31:23 | |
in Jerusalem and though
they were seen by the people | 0:31:23 | 0:31:28 | |
round them as complete
opposite, total odd couple. | 0:31:28 | 0:31:31 | |
One was neurotic an depressed
an artistic and imaginative | 0:31:31 | 0:31:35 | |
and the other was this very up beat
logician, but who was kind | 0:31:35 | 0:31:43 | |
of everybody could see his genius,
they came together to do work | 0:31:43 | 0:31:48 | |
that was unlike any work that had
been done in psychology, | 0:31:48 | 0:31:51 | |
they explored scientifically how
the mind worked, and specifically, | 0:31:51 | 0:31:56 | |
they went looking for the errors
the mind make, and found kind | 0:31:56 | 0:32:01 | |
of systematic errors that the mind
makes and this had implications | 0:32:01 | 0:32:06 | |
for all kinds of fields,
you name the field I can | 0:32:06 | 0:32:09 | |
give you an implication,
but medicine, in law, | 0:32:09 | 0:32:13 | |
and their work spawned the field
of behavioural economics. | 0:32:13 | 0:32:16 | |
The partnership between them
was fantastically productive, | 0:32:16 | 0:32:19 | |
and as you say, sort
of revolutionised the way | 0:32:19 | 0:32:22 | |
we think about thinking,
And then they didn't quite hold it | 0:32:22 | 0:32:26 | |
together at the end. | 0:32:26 | 0:32:28 | |
Oh no. | 0:32:28 | 0:32:30 | |
They busted up like a pair of loves
who were upset with each other. | 0:32:30 | 0:32:35 | |
The relationship, the relationship
had exactly the ark of a romantic | 0:32:35 | 0:32:38 | |
affair, they met each other,
they fell in love with each | 0:32:38 | 0:32:41 | |
other's minds, they had
ten spectacular year, | 0:32:41 | 0:32:51 | |
the sex was the ideas,
the children were the result. | 0:32:53 | 0:32:55 | |
Give us an example of your favourite
cognitive error we make | 0:32:55 | 0:32:58 | |
You have a simple one to describe,
the way totally irrelevant | 0:32:58 | 0:33:01 | |
information can distort a decision,
they call it anchoring, | 0:33:01 | 0:33:03 | |
so they brought people into a room,
they gave, put them with a wheel | 0:33:03 | 0:33:06 | |
of fortune that had numbers 0
to 99 on it. | 0:33:06 | 0:33:11 | |
They had them spin the wheel
of fortune, and it would come up | 0:33:11 | 0:33:15 | |
on a number, they would ask them
after this what percentage | 0:33:15 | 0:33:18 | |
of the countries in the United
Nations are in from Africa. | 0:33:18 | 0:33:22 | |
And the people who had spun a high
number would guess a higher number | 0:33:22 | 0:33:26 | |
and the people who spun allow number
would guess a low number. | 0:33:26 | 0:33:29 | |
America's in a peculiar place
at the moment, isn't it? | 0:33:29 | 0:33:32 | |
Have you found this cognitive
bias framework useful | 0:33:32 | 0:33:36 | |
in thinking about Trump,
the election, the way | 0:33:36 | 0:33:40 | |
the voters have behaved? | 0:33:40 | 0:33:44 | |
The joy of this is that you can
filter almost anything through it, | 0:33:44 | 0:33:47 | |
you can certainly filter
the election through it. | 0:33:47 | 0:33:49 | |
The first thing their work would say
is wasn't it incredible, | 0:33:49 | 0:33:53 | |
after the election, how an event
that nobody saw coming, | 0:33:53 | 0:33:57 | |
all of a sudden, starts to get
explained in all kinds of ways that | 0:33:57 | 0:34:01 | |
suggests it was predictable. | 0:34:01 | 0:34:03 | |
Their point would be
it wasn't predictable. | 0:34:03 | 0:34:07 | |
There's a lot of
randomness in elections. | 0:34:07 | 0:34:08 | |
You hold the election
one day versus another | 0:34:08 | 0:34:10 | |
you get a different result. | 0:34:10 | 0:34:11 | |
Who shows up that day,
so on and so forth. | 0:34:11 | 0:34:14 | |
Where do you think it's going to go? | 0:34:14 | 0:34:17 | |
I still hold out hope for a comic
ending, rather than a tragic one. | 0:34:17 | 0:34:21 | |
He has no idea what he's doing. | 0:34:21 | 0:34:25 | |
He's surrounding himself largely,
often with people who have no | 0:34:25 | 0:34:31 | |
idea, who are ill suited
to the role they're playing. | 0:34:31 | 0:34:35 | |
He's trying to mobilise
ugly forces in society. | 0:34:35 | 0:34:39 | |
I don't think there's
enough of it to sustain. | 0:34:39 | 0:34:41 | |
If I had to bet what happens, I'd
bet he's out of office in a year. | 0:34:41 | 0:34:51 | |
I mean it does seem like American
checks and balances have stopped him | 0:34:51 | 0:34:55 | |
doing very much, right? | 0:34:55 | 0:34:58 | |
He hasn't actually,
look at what he's done, | 0:34:58 | 0:35:00 | |
he's basically tweeted a lot. | 0:35:00 | 0:35:02 | |
He's appointed some judges. | 0:35:02 | 0:35:04 | |
They're going to be
there for a long time. | 0:35:04 | 0:35:06 | |
He's made a lot of people unhappy. | 0:35:06 | 0:35:07 | |
He's stopped some refugees
from coming into the country. | 0:35:07 | 0:35:12 | |
He's made people very unsettled
about their health care. | 0:35:12 | 0:35:15 | |
What he's done is change
everybody's mood. | 0:35:15 | 0:35:18 | |
Quite likely what's going to happen
is it's going to get worse. | 0:35:18 | 0:35:21 | |
His presence in the office
is weakening his party. | 0:35:21 | 0:35:26 | |
The way he's reacting
to the Muller investigation he's | 0:35:26 | 0:35:31 | |
behaving exactly as a man
would on whom Russia had something. | 0:35:31 | 0:35:35 | |
I mean, the only way to explain
the tone of his behaviour is he's | 0:35:35 | 0:35:41 | |
afraid of what Russia might
do to him. | 0:35:41 | 0:35:44 | |
Michael Lewis, thank you very much. | 0:35:44 | 0:35:46 | |
Thank you. | 0:35:46 | 0:35:49 | |
How can we protect rhinos? | 0:35:49 | 0:35:51 | |
There are only about
28,000 in the wild, | 0:35:51 | 0:35:53 | |
and a new film invites us to wonder
whether hunting them, | 0:35:53 | 0:35:57 | |
or allowing trade in their horns,
can actually be good | 0:35:57 | 0:36:00 | |
for the species. | 0:36:00 | 0:36:07 | |
I am paying for this hunt, people
are employed because we are hunting. | 0:36:07 | 0:36:11 | |
If there is no value
and we can't hunt these animals, | 0:36:11 | 0:36:13 | |
they will be extinct. | 0:36:13 | 0:36:15 | |
The commodification
of wildlife, what a vision | 0:36:15 | 0:36:18 | |
of nature that would be. | 0:36:18 | 0:36:19 | |
They like to talk
about conservation, | 0:36:19 | 0:36:21 | |
they are just brainwashing. | 0:36:21 | 0:36:27 | |
They enjoy killing. | 0:36:27 | 0:36:29 | |
The change is coming. | 0:36:29 | 0:36:30 | |
We're going to put it into this. | 0:36:30 | 0:36:31 | |
Surely we want our world to survive. | 0:36:31 | 0:36:33 | |
We have to keep this fight going. | 0:36:33 | 0:36:36 | |
This is my trophy, and there's not
any bureaucrat that can | 0:36:36 | 0:36:38 | |
take it away from me. | 0:36:38 | 0:36:40 | |
Now - that's the taster
of the film Trophy - | 0:36:40 | 0:36:46 | |
which is in cinemas and downloadable
later this week. | 0:36:46 | 0:36:48 | |
It looks at the money that can be
raised and the habitat protected | 0:36:48 | 0:36:51 | |
by allowing some commercial hunting. | 0:36:51 | 0:36:53 | |
Or more intriguingly,
the idea of farming rhino in order | 0:36:53 | 0:36:55 | |
to sell their ivory. | 0:36:55 | 0:36:57 | |
Clearly, this has not been
the traditional approach | 0:36:57 | 0:36:59 | |
to animal protection. | 0:36:59 | 0:37:00 | |
Well, joining me are John Hume,
who claims to be the world's biggest | 0:37:00 | 0:37:03 | |
private rhino breeder. | 0:37:03 | 0:37:05 | |
He features in the film,
and wants to sell ivory | 0:37:05 | 0:37:07 | |
that is humanely taken
from the animals. | 0:37:07 | 0:37:10 | |
Also with me is Tania McCrea-Steele
from the International Fund | 0:37:10 | 0:37:13 | |
for Animal Welfare. | 0:37:13 | 0:37:16 | |
Very good evening to you both. John,
tell us what you do - you've got how | 0:37:16 | 0:37:22 | |
many rhino on your ranch? I have
1,538 as of today. You breed them? I | 0:37:22 | 0:37:29 | |
breed rhinos and I believe that I
have the recipe to save them from | 0:37:29 | 0:37:33 | |
extinction. Which is? Breeding
better, protecting better. Right. | 0:37:33 | 0:37:39 | |
And the crucial bit that you want,
which is you basically take off | 0:37:39 | 0:37:43 | |
their horns. You don't kill them to
take off their horns. No, you only | 0:37:43 | 0:37:47 | |
take off their horns, like you take
off your nails. Cutting it off on | 0:37:47 | 0:37:51 | |
the dead part that's not alive. So
we trim their horns and the day | 0:37:51 | 0:37:59 | |
after we've trimmed them, it's worth
so much less to the poacher. Because | 0:37:59 | 0:38:04 | |
the rhino hasn't got much horn left.
It's worth so much left for him to | 0:38:04 | 0:38:09 | |
kill and steal the horn. It's
necessary to make it less attractive | 0:38:09 | 0:38:13 | |
to the poacher, when he's still got
the same amount of risk, the same | 0:38:13 | 0:38:17 | |
amount of work but much less we
regard. Crucial -- reward. Crucially | 0:38:17 | 0:38:21 | |
you want the money from selling the
horn to pay for the whole operation. | 0:38:21 | 0:38:24 | |
Exactly. Having removed some of the
horn, by the horn trimming | 0:38:24 | 0:38:29 | |
procedure, it is dangerous to store
it and expensive to store it. So why | 0:38:29 | 0:38:34 | |
don't we use the money from the horn
to save the lives of the rest of the | 0:38:34 | 0:38:39 | |
rhino. Let me put that question to
Tanya. We get the business model. | 0:38:39 | 0:38:45 | |
Yeah. What is wrong with that as a
business model? I understand that | 0:38:45 | 0:38:49 | |
John is a businessman and trading in
rhino horn, let's face it, is | 0:38:49 | 0:38:53 | |
profitable. That's what is
motivating all these criminals to | 0:38:53 | 0:39:00 | |
change their criminal syndicates and
focus on illegal trade in rhino | 0:39:00 | 0:39:02 | |
horn. What we'll see with the sale
going ahead is actually the demand | 0:39:02 | 0:39:08 | |
for rhino horn being stoked. We'll
see an increase in appetite for the | 0:39:08 | 0:39:13 | |
trade in rhino horn. What we really
need to do is we need to suppress | 0:39:13 | 0:39:18 | |
that demand - You're legitimising a
market, basically. Yeah, then it | 0:39:18 | 0:39:22 | |
makes it nigh on impossible for both
consumers who might buy into the | 0:39:22 | 0:39:27 | |
green washing, but for enforcers to
tell the difference between illegal | 0:39:27 | 0:39:31 | |
rhino horn and legal horn. If you're
buying a piece of rhino horn, find | 0:39:31 | 0:39:36 | |
me one customer that's going to DNA
test it. The crucial issue is | 0:39:36 | 0:39:41 | |
whether a market in rhino horns
legitimises the illegal market in | 0:39:41 | 0:39:46 | |
rhino horns? No banning has ever
worked in the world. America learned | 0:39:46 | 0:39:53 | |
that lesson by trying to ban
alcohol. We have given the market to | 0:39:53 | 0:39:58 | |
the poachers. We've given them carte
blanche. They've got no competition. | 0:39:58 | 0:40:03 | |
All the business has gone to them.
Because we've kept it away from the | 0:40:03 | 0:40:10 | |
legal suppliers of rhino horn. My
rhinos will all be dead in ten years | 0:40:10 | 0:40:15 | |
if I don't finance keeping them
alive. That's simply not true. Back | 0:40:15 | 0:40:19 | |
in the 80s we saw an ivory ban come
into effect. We saw ivory poaching | 0:40:19 | 0:40:25 | |
massively decrease. Then we saw a
case being made for putting legal | 0:40:25 | 0:40:32 | |
ivory back into circulation and what
we saw after that, which we | 0:40:32 | 0:40:37 | |
prophesised, which was there would
be a spike in poaching. That's | 0:40:37 | 0:40:39 | |
exactly what's happened. This has
played out before with elephants. We | 0:40:39 | 0:40:42 | |
need to make sure it doesn't happen
again with rhinos. We're reaching a | 0:40:42 | 0:40:47 | |
tipping point where we're getting
the political momentum to tackle | 0:40:47 | 0:40:51 | |
this problem. This is going to
really be a backward step because | 0:40:51 | 0:40:54 | |
we're on the verge of bidding the
network to break a network. There | 0:40:54 | 0:40:59 | |
are elephant experts in Africa who
will completely disagree with that | 0:40:59 | 0:41:04 | |
and tell you a one-off sale is not
the way to go, not in ivory or rhino | 0:41:04 | 0:41:09 | |
horn. Obviously, I'm here to argue
for the life of my rhinos. The | 0:41:09 | 0:41:15 | |
interesting thing is that some say
if you can let people make money out | 0:41:15 | 0:41:19 | |
a big mammal, the big mammals will
survive. If you make money by | 0:41:19 | 0:41:25 | |
killing big mammals they will be
extinct in a few generations. It's a | 0:41:25 | 0:41:30 | |
lovely idea in an ideal world. But
this is the real world. This isn't | 0:41:30 | 0:41:34 | |
just about the rhinos, this is about
the lives of the people standing | 0:41:34 | 0:41:37 | |
between the rhinos and poachers to
protect them because they want | 0:41:37 | 0:41:40 | |
rhinos to be around for their
children. They don't want to see | 0:41:40 | 0:41:42 | |
them go the way of the dinosaurs.
What we're doing at the | 0:41:42 | 0:41:46 | |
international fund for animal
welfare is working with local | 0:41:46 | 0:41:48 | |
communities to make sure that they
can benefit from wildlife thriving | 0:41:48 | 0:41:54 | |
on their doorstep and working on
tangible solutions. The film is | 0:41:54 | 0:41:59 | |
called Trophy, thank you both very
much indeed. | 0:41:59 | 0:42:02 | |
That's all we have time for. | 0:42:02 | 0:42:03 | |
I'm back tomorrow. | 0:42:03 | 0:42:04 | |
Till then, goodnight. | 0:42:04 | 0:42:11 |