23/11/2017 Newsnight


23/11/2017

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Your house is

deliberately burnt down.

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You see your children killed.

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You run to safety in

a neighbouring country.

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Could you be tempted to return

to your original home?

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It's the dilemma that may soon

face Rohingya Muslims.

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They've experienced terror

in Myanmar, fled to Banlagadesh

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but now may even be sent back.

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We'll ask if a new plan to return

the Rohingya to Myanmar is the right

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answer for a people who've

endured extraordinary suffering.

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Also tonight...

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It's the day after the Budget.

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Our specialist team will take

us through the bits

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they missed yesterday.

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Does anyone really believe animals

don't have feelings?

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Come on, really?

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Well, it's been a raging

controversy online this week.

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MPs accused of saying animals

are not sentient beings.

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Are they guilty or is it simply

a sign of social media hysteria?

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And...

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Hello, Liverpool!

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Liverpool was European City

of Culture back in 2008.

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Now the European Commission says

no British cities need

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apply in the future.

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That's Brexit, they say.

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Should we be surprised?

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Hello.

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Ten days ago we presented

you with a shocking

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report from Bangladesh

on the Rohingya Muslims who had fled

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from neighbouring Myanmar.

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The Rohingya refugee crisis has been

described as a textbook case

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of ethnic cleansing.

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Pushed out of their own country,

the testimony from the refugees

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was truly harrowing.

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Well, as I say, we brought that

to you on Monday last week.

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But there was a remarkable

development on the story today.

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Bangladesh has signed a deal

with Myanmar to return hundreds

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of thousands of Rohingya Muslims

who fled a recent army crackdown.

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It's expected that displaced

people could begin to

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return within two months.

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Well, that's the theory, anyway.

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But given what we've heard

about what the Rohingya

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were escaping from, is it really

possible to think of people

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returning to Myanmar -

a country that had stripped them

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of citizenship back in the 1980s?

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Ethnic de-cleansing?

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Is this a way forward?

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Bangladesh and Myanmar say

they are working on the details,

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but this will matter for hundreds

of thousands of people.

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James Clayton worked

with Gabriel Gatehouse on the last

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film and now reports

on this new plan.

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This footage almost don't real, the

size of the refugee camp is

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bewilder, it is streets and terraced

shack, there are close to a million

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people here, it is not camp, it is a

city.

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Last week Newsnight aired a film

showing the unimaginable levels of

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violence inflicted on the Rohingya.

Months after the attacks they were

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still crossing the border.

And yesterday, US Secretary of State

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Rex Tillerson said he believed what

happened was indeed ethnic

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cleansing.

While we were in Bangladesh one

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woman caught of our eye, sitting on

the side of the road she was looking

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out across the water to Myanmar at

her former village. You can see your

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village? Do you think you will be

able to go back some day?

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With international pressure on

Myanmar to act, and internal

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pressure on the Bangladesh

Government to reduce the size of the

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camp, the two sides came to an

agreement today, to repatriate

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refugees.

An agreement made by two countries

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and not the Rohingya.

The situation in Myanmar is

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horrendous, sending the Rohingya

back to the state is not acceptable.

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Their homes have been burned to the

ground, many people have been

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murdered and killed, in the last few

months, we have seen sexual violence

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and rape on a massive scale. The

idea you would send people back to

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that is very very shocking.

The UN hasn't been able to

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independently investigate alleged

astrosties in Myanmar, even if it

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could it seems unlikely many

Rohingya would wanted want to return

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as it stands, they are denied basic

human rights, they are not even

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officially citizens of the country.

This is a refugee we worked with in

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the cams, he told me what he thought

of the deal.

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What I need is not going to Myanmar

and going to Bangladesh again and

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again, all I need to be granted is

my citizenship and national right.

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What is clear from the Myanmar

Government is that will be unlikely,

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this is Aung San Suu Kyi a month

after the initial attacks.

We are

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conxxxx concerned to hear that

numbers of Muslims are fleeing

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across the border to Bangladesh. We

want to find out why this exodus is

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happening.

A leader suggesting she is unaware

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of atrocities going on in her own

country will make many think justice

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is a long way away. This woman's

parents and child were murdered by

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the Burmese military.

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Do you think you will ever go back

home?

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The refugee camp in Bangladesh is

becoming more and more like a

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permanent conurbation what isn't

clear is whether the Bangladesh

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Government will force the Rohingya

back in to Myanmar, or if anyone

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will ever want to go back freely.

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Some of that footage involving

Gabriel Gatehouse. 36

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36

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Joining me now is Labour

MP Rosena Allin-Khan,

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who has worked as a doctor

in a Rohingya refugee camp

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as recently as last weekend.

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And from the Asia Programme

at Chatham House, Champa Patel.

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Good evening. Did you, while you

were there, did you talk to them

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about what they, their hopings and

fears were of going back?

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Absolutely. I witnessed fist hand

intolerable suffering, I met people

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in the clinics who had fled many of

them had lost three or four children

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and had to make the choice between

leaving their children burning in

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fire, or grabbing the ones that were

still alive and running to make it

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over the border. These people are

fearful. These people have lived

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through intolerable cruelty and the

fought of sending them back to meet

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with their death is unacceptable.

You think think sending them back

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would be to confront with more of

the same of what they have just

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fled.

Absolutely, we need to ask

ourself what is drives people to

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flee, I met people who saw all of

the men folk in their village

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dismembered, murdered. Women dragged

by their hair Anne and gang raped

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and children thrown on to burning

fire, including baby, how will these

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people feel there is trust to go

back, I believe ta if they were to

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go back now, if there was to be a

forced repatriation that would be

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meeting their death.

Right. What is

going on, this deal, what is Myanmar

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true Iing to do, having ethnically

cleansed these people out, are they

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prepending -- pretending to say they

are willing to take them back?

The

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Rohingya have the right to return,

but it has to be safe, it has to be

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voluntary, dignified and

sustainable. And what was announced

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today doesn't really answer any of

those preconditions you would wanted

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to see, so I think it is really

difficult not to see this other than

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as short-term political

considerations, Myanmar is facing

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international criticism and wants to

be seen to be doing something, I

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think what has been overlooked a bit

is this is an agreement between the

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civilian Government in Myanmar and

Bangladesh, so where is the military

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in all of this?

You wouldn't trust,

basically, if Myanmar said, we will

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give them the dignity when they

return, you wouldn't trust them,

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because they didn't give it to them

when they were there?

The

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Commander-in-Chief said last week

the Rohingya, he referred to them as

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Bengali. So it doesn't instil

confidence it is safe for people to

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return back there, because it is the

military who orchestrated the scale

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of the violence against them.

This

is the paradox. What is the

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alternative? You can see if they

don't go back, the camp, your there,

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they are going to get more

permanent. It is not a is solution.

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It is not sustainable. I mean

Bangladesh have been amazing in

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opening the borders and their hearts

in accepting the Rohingya into their

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land, but they are absolutely

overwhelmed. They already have a

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fragile economy, 22% of Bangladeshis

live below the poverty line, they

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can't manage. In my opinion a number

of things need to happen. There

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needs to be an independent

fact-finding mission taking place in

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Myanmar, it has to be open,

transparent, for people to see what

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is going on and the perpetrators of

the crimes need to be taken to

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trial. Secondly, the Bangladeshi

Government need to be supported in

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their endeavours to care for the...

Which is money basically.

But also

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access for NGOs. I was out there

with Christian Aid who are doing

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great work. There are issues.

If I

may add to that. What was striking

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about today nobody talked about the

root causes of this crisis. The

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statelessness of the Rohingya. It is

striking to announce a deal and not

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talk about long-term solution, how

do you provide legal pathways to

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citizenship, this will happen again

and again:

Is there not a principle,

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the rest of the world says they

can't go back, you have rewarded the

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ethnic cleansing haven't you because

you have said yes, now your people

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are the ones who occupy the land

they used to have.

I agree. It is

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clear who the people are that are

responsible for this, they are named

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individuals and there has to be

accountability for what happens,

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that has to be sit in a broader

programme of reform that recognises

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that the Rohingya are part of

Myanmar, that they can't just be

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shunted off somewhere else and

discarded, and they have a vital

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role to play in the life of that

country.

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So how do you invest in them?

Bosnia

how many people were able to go back

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to the lace... Does it work.

The

thing to remember is in Bosnia it is

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not the people lacked citizenship.

It is key, the Rohingya in that

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respect, are more comparable to the

Palestinian, so I think that

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important lessons to be learned,

that these problems don't go way, it

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afters many countries in the region.

I am struck about why there isn't...

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This is genocide, textbook example

of genocide. We are bystanders to

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the genocide and we cannot allow

this to continue, this is not ethnic

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cleansing, this has been dehewn

anisation, over an entire group of

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people. If they go back, if they are

forcibly reat the rated they will go

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back, they will die and this will

continue. Thank you both very much.

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It's been around 36 hours

since yesterday's Budget,

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but in the past we've seen plenty

of them collapse completely

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in that kind of time-frame.

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Remember George Osborne's

omnishambles Budget in 2012?

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And Philip Hammond's u-turn

over National Insurance

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contributions earlier this year?

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Well, let's get the day

after reflections from

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our trio of editors -

Nick Watt, Helen Thomas

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and Chris Cook.

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The three wise men and women

who come bearing graphs.

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Good evening.

Do we think he got

away with that? Just about. So far?

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They seem quite pleased with the

response, they felt they got away

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with that?

Want to worry this

afternoon said that Parliament felt

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like the Mary Celeste, there was

nothing for them to do so they went

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back to the constituencies, there

was no feeling of plotting. This

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Budget landed as well as it could,

given that dramatic downgrade in the

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economic forecast. Relations between

Number 10 a number 11 have been

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difficult but from Number 10 I am

hearing words like they are pleased

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with this, if ordered landed well

and that it was transparent about

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the real challenges from that

downgrade that Helen will be talking

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about. The Prime Minister was on a

visit with Philip Hammond earlier

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today and it looks pretty much like

he has got a reprieve. She was asked

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a simple question, is his job is

safe? Yes, he did a good job in the

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Budget!

All peace and harmony, let

us talk about the economics. What is

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the headline of the day?

Yesterday

we had these big downgrades,

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productivity growth, economic growth

and the knock-on effect on borrowing

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and today the focus was on what that

means in people's pockets. Look at

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this chart from the Institute for

Fiscal Studies and this was the talk

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of the day, average annual earnings,

adjusted for inflation, this blue

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line, you can see the peak before

the financial crisis, the big drop

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and partial recovery. In March 2016,

on this next line, the official

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forecasts, nice, steady recovery. By

2021 we are back more or less. We

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have caught up, yes. The latest

forecasts... The Green line. Very

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different picture, flat out, modest

recovery.

Has anybody extrapolated

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that line to see when it gets back

to where we were?

The two things are

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the gaps, 2021, the gap is about

£1400. That has been forecast. And

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2023, we are nowhere near back to

that peak so that is already 15

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years of lost earnings growth and

this is buying power, living

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standards. This is what really

matters to people.

A lot of people

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have said that this is all Brexit?

This is not Brexit and it is

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important to say that. Actually,

what is baked into these forecasts

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about Brexit is quite smooth

because...

They have to make a bunch

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of assumptions.

The other thing to

say is these are forecasts and

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economists do occasionally get the

numbers wrong.

Maybe the fact that

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they have told us to carry an

umbrella, the sun will shine...

The

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fact that this is baked into the

official forecasts just reflects

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that the productivity, earnings,

living standards, this is a

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long-term problem and a real

challenge.

Chris, you were speaking

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to us yesterday about the NHS and

its difficulties, what are the

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options to make life within the

Budget they have got?

The NHS in

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England is not like other government

departments, it has its own Chief

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Executive and board that are not the

government, they are independent and

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they have this big thing every year,

the NHS mandate, a list of targets,

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and are going to decide next week

that they cannot meet their targets

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and do what they are paid to. One

example... One of the targets is the

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RTD target, which says that from a

referral to getting to treatment, it

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should be no longer than 18 weeks

and they think this will cost 2- £3

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billion.

We are missing that target.

£2 billion to get back in? To bring

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the backlog back down and then half

a billion every year to keep that

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under control. They only have £1.6

billion extra next year so they

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cannot do that one target, let alone

all of them. Next week will be all

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about which targets we meet in which

we do not, they will not say

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something like, we will no longer do

hips or cancer treatment, this is

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the differing of spending and it is

going to say, your quality of care

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will decline but the speed will

decline, that is the conversation.

0:18:110:18:20

Looking ahead, presumably the

government think we have managed to

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stabilise a patient that is this

government, it is OK, I'll be

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hoping...

It has been Theresa May's

horrible year, the Budget and the

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general election backfiring and

conference speech and this is the

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big thing that is so far going well.

Is this a turning point? She has two

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big challenges, as Chris said, she

has to not have a winter fuel crisis

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and candles Brexit negotiations move

onto the next stage, future trade

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transition, the Prime Minister has

seen -- is singing Donald Tusk

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tomorrow and that is the beginning

of a process over the next ten days

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with the UK will outline the extra

money it is putting on the table.

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Will be Irish Prime Minister dig in

and if so, and the EU still listens,

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maybe he could hold up progress.

Plenty of action. Thank you all very

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much indeed.

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A right old fuss has been brewing

over the last few days

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on the subject of animal welfare.

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And as with any story

concerning animals, it has

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attracted enormous interest,

particularly on social media

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and in some online forums.

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Now, we all love animals,

but the question about

0:19:310:19:33

the controversy over the last few

days is whether it is all

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based on a falsehood.

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Fake news.

0:19:370:19:38

MPs debating the Brexit Bill didn't

vote to carry an EU treaty

0:19:380:19:41

provision recognising animals

as sentient beings.

0:19:410:19:47

Does it tell us anything

about MPs or animals,

0:19:470:19:50

or about the tendency in this age

towards fevered and

0:19:500:19:53

uninformed argument?

0:19:530:19:57

Here's the headline

that captures the row.

0:19:570:19:59

Here's another.

0:19:590:20:01

MPs voted that animals

cannot feel pain.

0:20:010:20:04

Items like these have

quite reasonably been

0:20:040:20:06

shared millions of times.

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Because most of us -

sentient human beings -

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have seen a pet dog and can testify

that, yes, animals do feel pain, do

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have strong feelings of attachment

and are capable of emotions.

0:20:200:20:25

They have simple tastes

and are easily fulfilled

0:20:250:20:27

by simple activities,

such as retrieving a ball.

0:20:270:20:31

Dogs are clearly sentient beings.

0:20:310:20:34

Cats less so.

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But even they have emotions,

apparently, and are just less keen

0:20:360:20:38

to express them publicly.

0:20:380:20:41

So what were MPs thinking in voting

that animals can't feel pain?

0:20:410:20:45

Well, it turns out that they didn't.

0:20:450:20:48

They, too, have feelings and mostly

appear to believe animals

0:20:480:20:51

are sentient beings.

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They simply voted against

registering animal sentience

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in the Brexit Bill, lifting it

from the EU Lisbon Treaty.

0:20:560:21:00

No need, said the Government.

0:21:000:21:02

It's already effectively

covered here.

0:21:020:21:06

I can reassure the Honourable Lady

that it is already recognised

0:21:060:21:09

as a matter of domestic law here,

primarily in the Animal

0:21:090:21:11

Welfare Act 2006.

0:21:110:21:14

If an animal is capable

of experiencing pain and suffering,

0:21:140:21:17

it is sentient and under

the Animal Welfare Act

0:21:170:21:19

it is therefore afforded protection.

0:21:190:21:22

So the argument was not

about animal sentience at all -

0:21:220:21:26

it was a legal row about how

to enshrine it.

0:21:260:21:29

That is still an open question.

0:21:290:21:31

But protests against the Tories have

taken off, as though MPs have voted

0:21:310:21:35

to slaughter puppies.

0:21:350:21:38

Sue Perkins had a go

at it on Twitter.

0:21:380:21:40

"MPs denying what is

obvious", she said.

0:21:400:21:43

"Resist".

0:21:430:21:44

Ben Fogle did, too.

0:21:440:21:45

He has now apologised.

0:21:450:21:47

But if you did fall for the wrong

idea that MPs thought

0:21:470:21:51

animals didn't feel pain,

well, you would be angry.

0:21:510:21:58

Well, Tory MPs are terrified of that

anger, and Michael Gove,

0:21:580:22:01

who is responsible for this area,

clarified again today in a written

0:22:010:22:05

answer that the "Government

will ensure animal sentience

0:22:050:22:10

is recognised after

we leave the EU".

0:22:100:22:13

But he said the "Brexit Withdrawal

Bill is not the right

0:22:130:22:15

place to address this".

0:22:150:22:18

Well, I'm joined by Sue

Hayman from Cumbria.

0:22:180:22:20

She is Labour's Michael Gove -

Shadow Defra Secretary.

0:22:200:22:22

Robert Courts is a Conservative

MP and represents the

0:22:220:22:24

constituency of Witney.

0:22:240:22:33

Have you had a public response?

Lots

of the Neales, clearly something

0:22:330:22:40

people care about.

Do you feel it is

based on a falsehood, that you have

0:22:400:22:45

been unfairly maligned?

I would not

say falsehood but there is

0:22:450:22:48

misunderstanding. You are right in

the beginning of that piece, this is

0:22:480:22:53

a drafting issue and if you read the

text of article 13 and the new

0:22:530:22:58

clause 30, it becomes clear the

context is around European

0:22:580:23:01

legislation and it simply will not

work if we left that...

Why not?

0:23:010:23:06

What is the legal problem about

taking this thing from Article 13

0:23:060:23:11

that recognises animals are

sentience, and putting it into UK

0:23:110:23:16

law so we have a provision that says

animals are sentience?

Because the

0:23:160:23:21

context is about being an EU member

state, it doesn't make sense if you

0:23:210:23:26

are not in the EU. Of course,

animals are sentience, there is no

0:23:260:23:32

doubt.

Do any of your colleagues not

believe that?

No MP believes that,

0:23:320:23:38

they clearly feel pain, what is

behind this, the intention of making

0:23:380:23:43

clear that animals can suffer, we

should have a protection but this is

0:23:430:23:47

not the right way to do it.

We can

draft it ourselves. Have you brought

0:23:470:23:52

this on yourselves by killing

badgers and supporting hunting or a

0:23:520:23:56

free vote on hunting, which raises

the possibility of hunting

0:23:560:24:00

returning?

I don't think so, this is

just a misunderstanding on a

0:24:000:24:04

drafting error.

But killing badgers

is real, that is not a drafting

0:24:040:24:10

error?

Sure, but this is a

government... That is your policy?

0:24:100:24:16

For scientific reasons. Scientists

did not think it was a great idea

0:24:160:24:20

and you went ahead anyway.

This

government has done more for animal

0:24:200:24:23

welfare than any government for a

very long time, banning ivory and

0:24:230:24:28

increasing the sentences for animal

cruelty, mandatory CCTV in slaughter

0:24:280:24:33

houses. It has been years since any

government has done as much.

But in

0:24:330:24:37

the manifesto, when there was a

provision for a free vote on

0:24:370:24:44

hunting, a lot of people, not a huge

mainstream media issue, but a lot of

0:24:440:24:49

social media was very exercised by

that provision and you did notice

0:24:490:24:54

that?

Of course, British people care

very much about animals and that is

0:24:540:25:00

another issue that was controversial

but that should not take away from

0:25:000:25:03

our excellent record, nor does it

have anything to do with this

0:25:030:25:08

clause...

Steve Hayman, can we just

agree... That no MP has been exposed

0:25:080:25:19

as not believing that animals are

sentient beings? That there is any

0:25:190:25:24

suggestion that Tory MPs do not

believe animals feel pain, that is

0:25:240:25:30

pure nonsense?

Everyone would accept

that animals suffer and feel pain

0:25:300:25:36

but the point is, Michael Gove has

said we do not need to bring this

0:25:360:25:43

legislation into UK law because of

the animal welfare act which covers

0:25:430:25:47

at what what the animal welfare act

does not say is that animals are

0:25:470:25:51

sentient, which is why we need to

bring this into UK law.

I just want

0:25:510:25:56

to be 100% clear, that you are

condemning all the suggestions on

0:25:560:26:00

social media that have portrayed

Tory MPs as having voted that

0:26:000:26:06

animals do not feel pain? A lot of

that has been said and you think

0:26:060:26:11

that is nonsense, Robert Courts

believes no MP believes that and you

0:26:110:26:16

except that?

I think we all know

that.

A lot of this debate has been

0:26:160:26:25

based on a misunderstanding. Sue

Perkins, that tweet was based on a

0:26:250:26:30

misunderstanding. Haven't you been

using that misunderstanding?

I think

0:26:300:26:35

if animals feel suffering, if

Conservative MPs appreciate that

0:26:350:26:38

then they should have supported our

amendment and should have brought

0:26:380:26:43

article 13 into UK law.

Hang on, in

the Commons they explained perfectly

0:26:430:26:48

clearly that it was not a matter of

other animals are sentient or not,

0:26:480:26:53

on the 18th of October it was said

in the Commons, we are exploring how

0:26:530:26:59

the animal sentience principle of

article 13 can be reflected in the

0:26:590:27:02

UK. Oliver Letwin said we need to

talk about new clauses, what they

0:27:020:27:07

are aiming at and how best to

achieve it because it is a

0:27:070:27:11

disagreement about, not one of end

spot means. Yet this debate has

0:27:110:27:17

taken off as though it is about

animal pain?

Most of the appeal bill

0:27:170:27:24

is to bring existing EU legislation

into UK law and there are only a

0:27:240:27:30

small number of things that have

been taken out by the government,

0:27:300:27:33

animal sentience is one of them and

other environmental protections. The

0:27:330:27:37

question is, why remove it when you

can bring it in and have this in law

0:27:370:27:42

without having to go through the

rigmarole of creating new

0:27:420:27:45

legislation? That means we have to

trust the government to do that

0:27:450:27:48

whereas if they just bring it

straight back, that is the problem

0:27:480:27:51

solved.

Do you except Michael Gove's

pledge, in written answers today he

0:27:510:27:57

said we will sort this out because

it is not our intention to treat

0:27:570:28:02

animals as non-sentient beings. Do

you accept this will be enshrined in

0:28:020:28:06

UK law in some form or other but not

the Brexit Bill?

What concerns me is

0:28:060:28:12

Michael Gove has said a lot about

animal welfare and the environment

0:28:120:28:17

yet the two areas where the

important legislation that underpins

0:28:170:28:19

the principles underpinning animal

welfare and the environment in the

0:28:190:28:23

Brexit Bill have been removed from

the legislation. I think we should

0:28:230:28:30

be judged on what we do, not just

what we say.

Shouldn't the principle

0:28:300:28:34

be judged on what it does? The

animal sentience principle is

0:28:340:28:38

written into the treaty yet there is

foie gras in France and

0:28:380:28:45

bull-fighting in Spain, our welfare

standards are much higher!

But this

0:28:450:28:48

underpins the ability to build on

animal welfare, the RSPCA and the

0:28:480:28:54

British veterinary Association are

very concerned that article 13 has

0:28:540:28:56

been removed and the RSPCA basically

says there are areas of animal

0:28:560:29:02

welfare improvement that they do not

believe would have happened if it

0:29:020:29:05

was not for article 13. For example,

the banning of the battery cages,

0:29:050:29:10

the banning of animal testing in

cosmetics, banning importing

0:29:100:29:16

products. They see this as an

important part of legislation.

0:29:160:29:22

If Donald Trump let it run round

social media for his end, you would

0:29:220:29:26

be the first to be decrying fake

news anon sense, wouldn't you? Yet

0:29:260:29:31

when it is on your side you are

happy to use this misunderstanding

0:29:310:29:34

of whether the Tories have voted

against animals or voted against the

0:29:340:29:40

particular legislative proposal,

willing to use that, to get your

0:29:400:29:43

particular view of how the

legislation should be seen.

I

0:29:430:29:47

haven't misused anything.

All I have

said is it is important the

0:29:470:29:53

Government supports our amendment

and brings article 13 into UK law.

0:29:530:29:56

It a critical part of our

legislation.

0:29:560:30:00

Thank you very much indeed. Thank

you both.

0:30:000:30:02

Thank you both.

0:30:020:30:03

You might have heard of Fancy Bear -

a Russian hacking group with a long

0:30:030:30:07

history of cyber-espionage.

0:30:070:30:10

Experts say it was involved

in the attack on the theft

0:30:100:30:11

of Democratic Party emails

in the run-up to the US

0:30:110:30:13

election last year.

0:30:130:30:14

Also in the release of information

about Bradley Wiggins'

0:30:140:30:16

therapeutic use exemptions.

0:30:160:30:20

It is hard to find out much

about these hacking groups -

0:30:200:30:23

they don't self-publicise.

0:30:230:30:25

But with the PM programme on Radio

4, we've obtained exclusive insight

0:30:250:30:28

into some of the operations of Fancy

Bear.

0:30:280:30:30

Our story begins not

in Moscow or Washington,

0:30:300:30:32

but somewhere much closer to home.

0:30:320:30:33

Chris Vallance reports.

0:30:330:30:43

When you think of international

computer espionage,

0:30:460:30:47

what locations spring to mind?

0:30:470:30:49

Moscow?

0:30:490:30:50

Washington?

0:30:500:30:52

London?

0:30:520:30:54

What about a terraced street?

0:30:540:30:56

A corner shop in Oldham?

0:30:560:30:59

It's the kind of place

you might pop in for some

0:30:590:31:02

cigarettes or a pint of milk.

0:31:020:31:05

More Coronation Street

than le Carre.

0:31:050:31:07

Yet this place, through no fault

of its own, has a connection

0:31:070:31:10

to international cyber espionage.

0:31:100:31:12

In 2012, an unlikely set

of characters visited an online

0:31:120:31:14

business registered to this area.

0:31:140:31:15

They weren't customers

after groceries, they were

0:31:150:31:18

international hackers,

linked to Russian intelligence.

0:31:180:31:21

They were visiting a business

called Crookservers.

0:31:210:31:26

The hackers were from a group

called Fancy Bear, whose

0:31:260:31:30

targets include government,

military and security organisations.

0:31:300:31:34

They would visit Crookservers'

website to rent computers

0:31:340:31:37

used in their attacks.

0:31:370:31:44

Experts say Fancy Bear's aim

was to change the way we think.

0:31:440:31:51

There are a lot of Russian

cyber groups that engage

0:31:510:31:53

in traditional espionage,

so the theft of political

0:31:530:31:55

and military information.

0:31:550:31:59

What makes this Russian group

particularly notable is they also

0:31:590:32:01

appear to participate

in what we call active measures,

0:32:010:32:03

which is the Russian notion

of using cyber and other means

0:32:030:32:06

to influence popular

opinion in the advancement

0:32:060:32:08

of their strategic interests.

0:32:080:32:09

Crookservers was a purely

virtual business that

0:32:090:32:10

rented out, well, servers.

0:32:100:32:11

It was all online, it never

physically owned the machines.

0:32:110:32:14

In early 2012, it briefly claimed

to be based at the newsagents

0:32:140:32:17

in its website registration

documents, but no-one at the corner

0:32:170:32:19

shop had ever heard of it.

0:32:190:32:23

Where Crookservers was physically

based is a tricky question.

0:32:230:32:25

The online business could have been

run from a laptop, but however small

0:32:250:32:29

it was it was popular with Fancy

Bear.

0:32:290:32:36

This Russian hacking group clearly

liked using that service provider

0:32:360:32:38

because they had gone back

on a number of occasions

0:32:380:32:41

to hire new servers,

and lease new computers,

0:32:410:32:43

so I think it shows

that was a service provider

0:32:430:32:45

they were keen to use and they felt

safe using them, which is

0:32:450:32:48

interesting in itself, I think.

0:32:480:32:50

One of the computers leased

from Crookservers under

0:32:500:32:52

the pseudonym Nikolay Mladenov

features in computer

0:32:520:32:54

code used to attack

the German Parliament in 2015.

0:32:540:33:04

Claudia Haydt was the first person

to notice the attack

0:33:130:33:15

on the Bundestag.

0:33:150:33:16

They sent out an e-mail

which supposedly was sent by a UN,

0:33:160:33:19

United Nations organisation,

and this e-mail had an attachment

0:33:190:33:21

with reports of the situation

in Ukraine, or supposedly it had

0:33:210:33:24

an attachment like this.

0:33:240:33:25

I tried to open it.

0:33:250:33:26

I found out it didn't work

and I forgot about it,

0:33:260:33:29

only later remembered

there is this problem.

0:33:290:33:30

Of course I thought it was rather

serious if a computer

0:33:300:33:33

in the Bundestag might be victim

of an attack by some Trojan virus.

0:33:330:33:42

Then the news comes out

that this is a Russian

0:33:420:33:44

linked group, Fancy Bear.

0:33:440:33:46

When that news broke,

what did you think?

0:33:460:33:50

Well, yes, it could be Russian,

it could be someone else.

0:33:500:33:53

Yes, there are a lot of clues

which are pointing to Russia,

0:33:530:33:56

because a lot of the software used

in the hack was already used

0:33:560:33:59

by other confirmed Russian attacks,

for example in US, and actually

0:33:590:34:02

we still don't know what kind

of documents had been downloaded

0:34:020:34:04

or uploaded in this case,

to somewhere else.

0:34:040:34:06

We don't know what happened

to really sensitive papers.

0:34:060:34:16

Crookservers closed

in October 10th of this year.

0:34:230:34:25

Internet records its last business

address was in Pakistan.

0:34:250:34:27

But we have traced the company back

to an individual whose social media

0:34:270:34:30

profiles show lived in the Oldham

area until around about 2014.

0:34:300:34:40

His name is Usman Ashraf.

0:34:430:34:45

Ashraf, who is now based

in Pakistan, only communicated

0:34:450:34:47

with us via e-mail, but he did

provide detailed

0:34:470:34:49

answers to questions.

0:34:490:34:50

He said he didn't know his

customers were hackers.

0:34:500:34:52

He provided evidence that

when in 2015 he was first alerted

0:34:520:34:55

to the use of Crookservers

by Fancy Bear he swiftly

0:34:550:34:57

kicked them out.

0:34:570:35:02

Lawyers say what he was doing wasn't

necessarily illegal.

0:35:020:35:04

And Ashraf's answers

to our questions helped expose a web

0:35:040:35:07

of financial transactions,

fake identities and cyber attacks

0:35:070:35:09

linked to the hackers.

0:35:090:35:15

Mike McLellan says that what we have

learned allows experts

0:35:150:35:17

to connect together several

different hacking operations.

0:35:170:35:22

The information that has been

received appears to suggest a link

0:35:220:35:25

between the attack against the US

Democratic Party in 2016,

0:35:250:35:27

with operations against a Polish

defence company, against a Bulgarian

0:35:270:35:30

agency for national security,

against the participants

0:35:300:35:31

of the 2014 Farnborough airshow

and against the Nigerian Government.

0:35:310:35:41

What may have attracted

the hackers to Crookservers,

0:35:450:35:47

apart from its name,

was it accepted payment

0:35:470:35:51

using a number of hard to trace

methods, including bitcoin.

0:35:510:35:55

We were able to identify that

payment to Crookservers came

0:35:550:35:58

from a specific bitcoin wallet.

0:35:580:35:59

That bitcoin wallet had

received over 200 bitcoins

0:35:590:36:01

round $100,000 at the time.

0:36:010:36:07

That wallet in turn received funds

from BTCE, a place where you can

0:36:070:36:10

exchange bitcoins for cash,

which Tom says was popular

0:36:100:36:12

with Russian computer criminals,

until it was shut down

0:36:120:36:15

by US investigators.

0:36:150:36:21

The indictment mentioned that over

$4 billion worth of bitcoin

0:36:210:36:24

were laundered through BTCE.

0:36:240:36:25

Much of it transferred

into Russian roubles.

0:36:250:36:31

I understand there are other clues

to be found in financial information

0:36:310:36:33

from Crookservers that hint

as Russian connections.

0:36:330:36:35

We have seen no evidence BTCE knew

it was being used to fund hackers.

0:36:350:36:38

We have also seen no evidence

that the shop in Oldham had any

0:36:380:36:42

actual connection to Crookservers,

although through Ashraf

0:36:420:36:45

there is a clear link to the area.

0:36:450:36:51

So in the end what have we learned?

0:36:510:36:53

We have obtained a unique

window into a Russian

0:36:530:36:55

linked hacking operation,

a window that has enabled us to join

0:36:550:36:58

together a number of different

campaigns identified

0:36:580:36:59

by the security industry.

0:36:590:37:03

We have seen the hackers were well

organised and they were well funded.

0:37:030:37:06

And the financial information

points, once again,

0:37:060:37:08

in the direction of Russia.

0:37:080:37:09

It is a hacking campaign

that has no lesser aim

0:37:090:37:11

than to influence word events.

0:37:110:37:13

It's a hacking campaign that

continues to this day.

0:37:130:37:23

On Monday, news came that two big EU

regulatory agencies in London

0:37:250:37:28

are being moved offshore

to Paris and Amsterdam.

0:37:280:37:29

A disappointment to London.

0:37:290:37:30

But it was interesting, of course,

that Britain's allocated EU

0:37:300:37:33

institutions were both in London

in the first place.

0:37:330:37:40

But today, disappointing Brexit news

came for five other cities -

0:37:400:37:42

they'd been competing to be

European City of Culture 2023.

0:37:420:37:45

The EU Commission said

they are ineligible because we will

0:37:450:37:47

no longer be a member state.

0:37:470:37:52

Were we stupid to think

we might be part of the City

0:37:520:37:55

of Culture game once we leave?

0:37:550:37:56

Or is the Commission

being unreasonable?

0:37:560:37:58

I'm with Rosie Millard,

who is Chair of Hull -

0:37:580:38:00

the UK City of Culture 2017.

0:38:000:38:02

She is also on the selection panel

for the European City of Culture.

0:38:020:38:11

I presume it was.

You mean capital

of dull culture.

Because it has gone

0:38:110:38:17

now. You were going to choose one of

the five cities.

Look at the care

0:38:170:38:23

that has gone into it. Our place,

that was Belfast.

I am puzzle as to

0:38:230:38:30

how it got this far, we voted to

leave some time ago, how could it

0:38:300:38:35

have got this far would us

realising?

It must have been on

0:38:350:38:39

their Risk Register, they must have

had this anxiety this could happen,

0:38:390:38:44

but never believe it would happen

because there is precedent, you

0:38:440:38:49

know, cities of one Culture, Media

and Sport, from countries which are

0:38:490:38:54

not in the EU, like Norway, Capital

of Culture, there is even I think it

0:38:540:38:59

is Prague, yes, was the Capital of

Culture before the Czech Republic

0:38:590:39:03

was in the EU, so there is

precedent.

And down with 23

They put

0:39:030:39:08

a lot of money into the bid.

It is

preallocated as Britain's year.

And

0:39:080:39:14

I may say that Britain was the

country that really brought the

0:39:140:39:19

Capital of Culture into being,

because before Glasgow won it in

0:39:190:39:25

1990, the Capital of Culture went to

places like Florence and Paris,

0:39:250:39:30

which didn't need it. Glasgow got it

in 1990 and the city was

0:39:300:39:35

transformed. It rebranded it. It, I

think you can draw a direct line to

0:39:350:39:41

hosting the Commonwealth Game,

equally Liverpool, you know, brought

0:39:410:39:45

an astonishing amount of wealth and

tourism. What happened was after

0:39:450:39:50

Glasgow it weventry year to a city

that really needed it. So we made it

0:39:500:39:54

the success story.

What I want to

know, were we stupid to think, we

0:39:540:39:58

are leaving, if you leave you don't

get to play in the game, do you, are

0:39:580:40:04

the Commission being unreasonable in

interpreting the rules?

I think this

0:40:040:40:08

is EU Commission throwing its toys

out a big European shaped cot. They

0:40:080:40:12

didn't need to do that. This is one

of the joys, it is is a joyous

0:40:120:40:18

thing, in Hull people are walking

round, it is joyous, the Hull

0:40:180:40:21

phenomenon is not the EU, it is the

UK but it is the same idea, and you

0:40:210:40:27

know, the creative industries

federation where I work, we have

0:40:270:40:29

done a lot of scoping on what will

happen to the creative industries if

0:40:290:40:32

there is a hard Brexit, if Brexit

happens an it will hit the creative

0:40:320:40:36

industries very very hard, because

here a lot of creative British

0:40:360:40:41

people live and work in the EU.

We

interpret it as very hard.

There is

0:40:410:40:45

a lot of flexibility, freedom of

movement is needed. It is not

0:40:450:40:49

special pleading, this is is a big,

important factor in the UK economy

0:40:490:40:53

and jobs.

Which one was going to win out of

0:40:530:40:56

the five?

I couldn't say, they were

all marvellous. No, you know, I

0:40:560:41:01

might...

You might as well award it

It might come back in some form and

0:41:010:41:06

what might happen is that the

collegiate community effort that has

0:41:060:41:10

gone into this might stick round.

There might be good results.

0:41:100:41:15

Something good might come out of it.

It is good stuff.

0:41:150:41:22

The Sun has Harry popped the

question? Bookies suspend engagement

0:41:220:41:26

bet, there is a question mark, they

can't say he has but they are

0:41:260:41:30

thinking it. The Mail, on the bottom

right hand corner, what do they

0:41:300:41:35

know? The bookies stopped taking

bet, are we poised for something

0:41:350:41:39

there. That is almost it.

0:41:390:41:42

But before we go, it's now been five

years since British war photographer

0:41:420:41:45

John Cantlie was kidnapped in Syria

alongside American

0:41:450:41:47

journalist James Foley.

0:41:470:41:49

Cantlie is one of more than 20

journalists still believed to be

0:41:490:41:53

held captive by so-called Islamic

State.

0:41:530:41:56

His current whereabouts

are not known.

0:41:560:41:57

To mark this anniversary,

we leave you with a montage

0:41:570:42:00

of photos he took in Libya,

Afghanistan and Syria.

0:42:000:42:03

Goodnight.

0:42:030:42:10

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