29/11/2017 Newsnight


29/11/2017

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis.


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The border between North

and South in Ireland.

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Is this where Theresa May's vision

for Brexit becomes unstuck?

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It's the issue with

the power to disrupt -

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Britain is leaving the EU,

partly to get control of its borders

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- but can that be squared with a

no-border solution in Ireland?

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If measures are put in place to

control it again, whether that is

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remote-controlled cameras or customs

officers, those could easily become

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the focus for protest or even

violence, by those opposed to any

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tightening of control.

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The Irish Agriculture Minister tells

us how the problem can be solved,

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and what happens if it isn't.

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President Trump retweets anti-Muslim

hate videos

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from far right Britain First.

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Does getting shocked by that,

just encourage him?

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Michael Stone - jailed for

the murder of Lin and Megan Russell.

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But is it the biggest miscarriage

of justice for decades?

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We'll hear about the arguments

for re-examining the evidence

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for that conviction.

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And hope runs high as Zimbabwe

considers a future without the long

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shadow of Robert Mugabe,

but is it really all change,

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or simply as you were?

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President Mugabe, do you still

like him or do you not like him?

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CROWD CHANTS "NO".

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We don't like Mugabe.

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Since long, you were afraid

because if you were saying

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something negative about him,

you would be butchered.

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Hello.

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The weather may be getting

colder, but the Brexit process

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is hotting up.

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A European Council meeting in two

weeks will decide whether Britain

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gets to the next level in the talks.

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That is, whether we get to discuss

trade and our future relationship.

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We've made concessions

on the money issue.

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Fair to say that's no

impediment to moving on now.

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But there is still the not

insignificant issue

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of the Irish border.

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It's a circle to be squared.

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The UK does not want to be

in the Customs Union

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or the Single Market -

but that would normally imply

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we have border with those who are.

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The land border between Northern

Ireland and the Republic included.

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Everybody agrees that a border

is not a good idea there -

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but no-one has really suggested how

you avoid it in a way

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that is acceptable to everyone else.

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We'll hear from the Irish

agriculture secretary shortly,

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but first our diplomatic editor,

Mark Urban reports

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from the invisible border itself.

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This is how the modern

lumber business is done.

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Load trees in one end.

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Get planks out of the other.

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The transformation

takes just 12 minutes.

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It all runs with such sharp

efficiency that the mill works

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day and night 365 days a year.

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This plant near Enniskillen

in Northern Ireland,

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uses mainly logs from the Republic,

put a hard border in the way

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of that, and all its precisely

calculated margins would go awry.

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Now we have 23,000 cross-border

commercial lorry movements every

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year and you can imagine how much

time would be lost if we

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started to lose an hour

or a half-hour of time on those.

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We have 300 direct employees

here in Enniskillen.

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Maybe another 300 indirect.

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If we lost an hour a day,

or an hour on each truck movement

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that would equate to 15 new people

and the efficiency of the business

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would be badly impaired.

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Years of tranquillity and political

progress here mean that

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in many places the border

is barely discernible.

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So we're on the road here to Clones

in County Fermanagh and this road

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actually passes the border four

times in the space of ten minutes.

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This type of ease of traffic

is the thing that is being

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threatened by current developments.

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So back in the Troubles,

the army closed many border crossing

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points and people who want

the border to carry on working

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in this very unrestricted way say

that if measures are put in place

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to control it again,

whether that is a controlled cameras

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or customs officers,

those could easily become the focus

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for protest or even violence,

by those opposed to any

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tightening of control.

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But with the EU heading for a

summit, where two out of the three

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of its Brexit separation issues,

money and citizens rights appeared

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to be close to resolution, the Irish

border question has suddenly gained

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great power.

This is the first time

in the history of Anglo-Irish

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relations, when you have had

conflict between Britain and

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Ireland, when Ireland has been the

stronger position. It has never

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happened before. It is very

unfamiliar territory for us to be

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in. And it is a huge challenge for

Ireland, because we are not used to

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having that kind of power in our

side of Anglo-Irish relations. And

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we have to use it really, really

well. We have a fairly short period

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in which it can be used, and if it

is used badly, it is a disaster for

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Ireland, but also for Britain, and

that is no good for any of us.

And

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if Ireland takes too strong a line,

and contributes to a disorderly

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Brexit, one without an agreement,

its economy would suffer terribly.

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Any sector or any company which has

supplied chains which span the north

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and south, so there are a lot of

complications for firms which they

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are beginning to grapple with, and

beginning to look at in a more

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granular sense as they prepare for

Brexit, but these will have real

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impact on companies, and potentially

would be very disruptive.

In Dublin,

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politicians want maximum concessions

for business, while keeping peace in

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the form of the Good Friday

Agreement in tact. But if their

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favoured solution, retaining

Northern Ireland as part of the EU's

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customs union is to take flight,

loyalists in the north will have to

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be convinced that that is not

pushing them towards a united

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Ireland.

The constitutional position

can only be changed if there is a

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referendum and a united Ireland, and

that is contained in the Good Friday

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Agreement. We are campaigning for

that and we want to see that

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referendum and win that referendum.

This is a practical measure.

What

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can the UK say, short of keeping the

North in the customs union, to

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convince Ireland it should allow

Brexit talks to move on?

We have not

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had sufficient detail from the UK

Government will stop when it comes

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to the border, we had a fine speech

from the Prime Minister in Florence

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and a lengthy paper but neither of

which had any decent level of detail

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for the Irish government to put out

a proposal in relation to a new

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customs union. We want to make sure

we have something similar or

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advanced from the UK Government.

Back in Fermanagh, what they want is

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a minimum of disruption to their

supply chain, and a special status

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for the north that might not be

called customs union, but could look

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remarkably similar to it. Solving

the border issue will require some

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sort of special regime that is not

such an example of Irish

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exceptionalism that it falls foul of

the bureaucrats in Brussels. Ireland

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is using its window of opportunity

to press the UK for answers, but

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with wider EU UK agreement

apparently close, the pressure is

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being felt on both sides of the

Irish border, for a workable road

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map to solve their issues.

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Nick Watt our political

editor is here.

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Nick, it has been a busy couple of

days with the money thing yesterday,

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Northern Ireland a lot of things to

say there. Let's start on the money.

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Are we clear about where the deal is

and what was promised?

Yes, we said

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last night that the UK and EU have

reached agreement on a framework,

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but if there is a written agreement

you will not see of money written

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down, but I understand that if we

get to that agreement, in the run-up

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to or at the

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European Council next month, the two

sides will agree a figure. It will

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not be in writing and that figure

will emerge. The UK view is that

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that figure will be between 40 to

£45 billion, with an absolute cap

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that it cannot go above £45 billion,

and that is 40 billion of money that

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is absolutely related to the EU, and

what I'm told is a couple of extra

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billion in money that is not wholly

definitively related to the EU but

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will essentially go into that pot.

That is pounds. A lot of things we

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were talking yesterday was in Euros

so billion euros. Northern Ireland.

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Does the UK Government believes it

can see a way through?

The UK

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Government believes this is the most

serious issue. One source said they

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hoped to get there by the time of

the summit but it is a gamble. I

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understand UK is planning a carrot

and stick approach with Dublin. The

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stickers to say you claim that we

are not abiding by the principles of

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the Good Friday Agreement. Actually,

you are not abiding by it because

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what you're doing is slowly

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representing the nationalist

community, which has real fears

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about Brexit. At the heart of the

Good Friday Agreement is you need to

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take both communities with you, and

unionists obviously voted mainly in

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favour of Leave in the referendum.

That is the stick. The carrot is to

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say let's take the cooperation

across the iron and of Ireland that

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is in the Good Friday Agreement,

let's entrench them in this issue

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with the EU and two areas such as

agriculture and the single energy

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market. What UK ministers will say

is we reckon we could sell that to

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the DUP. The DUP, until earlier this

year, was in government with Sinn

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Fein governing an all Ireland

issues. We can sell that to them.

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What we cannot sell is putting a

border between Northern Ireland and

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Great Britain down the Irish Sea.

Thank you.

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We hear a lot of the British view -

but earlier this evening,

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I spoke to Michael Creed,

the Irish Agriculture Secretary.

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I started by asking him how

the Irish border issue could be

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resolved in Brexit talks.

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Well, we have articulated what we

believe is a reasonable position to

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resolve the issue. The UK has

clearly set its face against that.

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Our suggestion was Northern Ireland

should remain within the customs

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union and the single market.

We

know...

What is clearly incumbent on

0:11:100:11:19

Theresa May and her government, and

her negotiating team, is to

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articulate and alternative which

does not give rise to hard border,

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because everybody's agreed, we do

not want a hard border. Not just for

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trade reasons, but because of the

long lessons of history that we have

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learned to our great cost, not just

financially but indeed at higher

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cost, over many, many years. The

Good Friday Agreement, the single

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market and the customs union have

facilitated a seamless border over

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many years. If the UK Government has

clearly said No to a single market

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and customs union, it is clearly

incumbent on the British government

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to articulate a way forward that

enables us to have an invisible

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seamless border which they said they

want.

Let me put this to you.

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Suppose the British said we have a

solution but it relies on checking

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one in 100 trucks as they go across

the border, would that be acceptable

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to the Irish government?

Well, you

and I are not going to negotiate the

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detail of it. There are teams of

negotiators on behalf of the UK

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Government and the Bynea negotiating

teams. It is not a bilateral

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agreement between the Republic of

Ireland and the UK, it is between

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the UK and the 27 member states. The

27 are rock solid. We need political

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solutions now and we're not getting

their solutions.

What if there was a

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big lorry parked inside Northern

Ireland where some checks were made,

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does that constitute a physical

border is unacceptable or is that

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compatible with the kind of no

border rhetoric we are hearing?

That

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is not compatible with an invisible

seamless border. But it is an

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interesting premise to your

question. The UK citizens, and I

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respect their vote, but voted to

leave the EU but they did not in

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this city vote in the mentation of

that decision to vote to leave the

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customs union or the single market.

That is an entirely different

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interpretation of the issue. My

concern is, with all of the

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historical connotations of the

border, if they were to re-emerge,

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that is something which is violently

destructive to the citizens of

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Northern Ireland, and that is why,

also in the context of trade,

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anything that is an impediment to

trade, no matter what political hack

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the web, is to the detriment of

citizens north and south.

Would your

0:13:410:13:48

Prime Minister Leo Varadkar survived

if he made significant concessions

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to the position you were describing?

It is not a strong government in the

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Republic at the moment. Would he

survived, would he be able to

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command Madrid to support if they

made concessions? -- if he made

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concessions?

I do not propose to

speak for other parties but I am

0:14:090:14:13

certain there is 100% agreement

across the political divide on the

0:14:130:14:19

issue of the border between the

Republic and Northern Ireland. This

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is a really, really critical issue.

It is far, far more important than

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the trade context between North and

south on the island of Ireland. It

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has to do with the difficult

historical lessons we have learnt,

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which have been born out of a hard

border, and we certainly want to

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avoid that, and that is our primary

motivation. Obviously, trade issues

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that arise and costs associated with

the border are important, but they

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are secondary to the lessons of

history.

Thank you.

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So, if you didn't see the news,

Donald Trump's morning Twitter flow

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included three retweets -

each an anti-Muslim video posted

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by the deputy leader of the far

right group Britain First.

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For example, one purported to show

a Muslim migrant beating up

0:15:080:15:10

a Dutch boy on crutches.

0:15:100:15:14

The reaction to Trump sending out

hate videos was immediate: Yvette

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Cooper, chair of the Home Affairs

committee was typical.

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She said, "Couldn't have imagined

there was anything left Trump

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could do to shock me.

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But promoting the views of a woman

from a far right hate group

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is appalling".

0:15:270:15:29

It raises an interesting question -

for progressives or mainstream

0:15:290:15:33

politicians, how should you react

to Trump on a day like this?

0:15:330:15:37

A question for us too.

0:15:370:15:39

A day when a President breeches the

norms that most citizens respect.

0:15:390:15:43

Here's the dilemma.

0:15:430:15:45

If Trump - or anyone -

wants to get attention

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by doing things that annoy you,

you don't want to reward

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their undesirable behaviour.

0:15:520:15:53

So strategy number one

is not to reward it.

0:15:530:15:55

Avoid being shocked by President

Trump, by not being shocked.

0:15:550:15:58

Don't rise to the bait.

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The problem is, that a consequence

of that is that then the abnormal

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can become normalised.

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If anti-Muslim videos

are not your thing,

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especially those posted

by Britain First's Jayda Fransen,

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then to passively watch a US

president post them as though that's

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an everyday occurrence, implies

that is an everyday occurrence.

0:16:180:16:20

But it isn't.

0:16:200:16:21

So if you don't want it be

normalised, strategy two,

0:16:210:16:24

is to be shocked by Trump tweets.

0:16:240:16:26

Like Labour MP Chris Bryant

who suggested Trump be arrested

0:16:260:16:29

if he comes to the UK,

for inciting racial hatred.

0:16:290:16:33

The problem with expressing outrage,

is that one suspects

0:16:330:16:36

it is what President Trump wants.

0:16:360:16:38

And it's certainly what

Jayda Fransen wants.

0:16:380:16:43

So is there a third way

for those who find the whole

0:16:430:16:47

hate thing distasteful?

0:16:470:16:48

Neither rewarding it,

nor ignoring it?

0:16:480:16:49

I can think of only one.

0:16:490:16:51

You react not with hate or division,

but with love and understanding.

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You don't get angry -

you follow the simplest advice

0:16:530:16:56

of the Dalai Lama,

"Be kind whenever possible.

0:16:560:16:58

It is always possible" he said.

0:16:580:17:02

To Muslims.

0:17:020:17:03

And to Trump supporters.

0:17:030:17:04

Is there anything else to be done?

0:17:040:17:07

You may have your own ideas -

but I'm joined by the Conservative

0:17:070:17:10

MP Nadhim Zahawi was born in Iraq,

and has previously spoken out

0:17:100:17:13

against Trump's travel ban

on majority Muslim countries.

0:17:130:17:20

You have reacted in your own way, by

writing a letter to him.

I have

0:17:200:17:26

written to him tonight to explain to

him why I think he is wrong for

0:17:260:17:30

re-tweeting those videos. Why many

people in his administration, as

0:17:300:17:35

well as ours, who work on

counterterrorism, would be

0:17:350:17:38

heartbroken because our work

involves effectively combating the

0:17:380:17:44

ideology of diversion or Al-Qaeda

any hate group, far-right or any

0:17:440:17:50

radical group. By effectively going

the other way, by saying, what they

0:17:500:17:57

are trying to do is dehumanise our

values, to brainwash young men to

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blow themselves up. To participate

in the same thing and dehumanise

0:18:030:18:08

Muslims, I would want him to think

again, delete those videos. I want

0:18:080:18:13

him to come here so I can take him

to Stratford-upon-Avon and

0:18:130:18:17

Birmingham and London... And I have

invited him, to try to educate him

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to the diversity, integration and

how beautiful, as he would put it,

0:18:230:18:28

our society is.

I think he really

needs to think hard tonight about

0:18:280:18:32

his behaviour. Do you think he has

not thought about this does not know

0:18:320:18:36

what you are saying? Or needs to

visit the UK to know that spreading

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hate is not a good way of fostering

community relations? I wonder

0:18:400:18:45

whether rationalising with the man

is never going to work?

I would like

0:18:450:18:51

to think that he is probably naive

to the fact that a lot of resources

0:18:510:18:57

in the United States, human

resources and financial, is going

0:18:570:19:02

into combating this narrative, not

just physically in Iraq, the Prime

0:19:020:19:06

Minister was in Baghdad today, where

we are taking on diversion

0:19:060:19:11

militarily but the ideology is more

important and to effectively

0:19:110:19:15

dehumanise in the way they do, or

that we, as he has done, is

0:19:150:19:23

counter-productive and when he

speaks to the secretary, his

0:19:230:19:29

secretaries, he will know this.

I

would like to know the reply. What

0:19:290:19:34

reaction does you want when he

tweets this stuff? What reaction is

0:19:340:19:39

he trying to get? To annoy, to

distract from other things,

0:19:390:19:43

attention?

People who create these

videos do it they try to target

0:19:430:19:50

emotional heartstrings that are

about hatred. It is a basic knee

0:19:500:19:57

jerk reaction. Tribal? It is what

terrorists use. They show videos of

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our society and they dehumanise it

so that young men can be brainwashed

0:20:050:20:09

and once you do that, you can do

anything to a human being. That is

0:20:090:20:13

what the Nazis did to the Jews. I

think, dare I say it, he has naively

0:20:130:20:22

bought into that narrative.

Finally,

we call Britain First a far right

0:20:220:20:28

group, should be call him a

far-right President?

I don't think

0:20:280:20:32

so, sometimes when he thinks about

these things, he does say that he is

0:20:320:20:40

the least racist human being and I

would like to believe that, I would

0:20:400:20:44

like him to come here and see how

integrated, how peaceful and

0:20:440:20:51

tolerant, we coexist, it is a

wonderful place in England. And I

0:20:510:20:56

need him to be here to see this

because he is the holder of the

0:20:560:21:01

office and the Prime Minister needs

to work with the President and he

0:21:010:21:04

happens to be that President so we

have to go the extra mile to educate

0:21:040:21:08

him.

Thank you for coming in and we

would like to see his reply.

0:21:080:21:13

Two weeks and one day ago, the

Zimbabwean army moved into Harare.

0:21:130:21:16

We reported the armoured

vehicle movements that day,

0:21:160:21:18

perplexed as to what was going on.

0:21:180:21:20

Was it a coup?

0:21:200:21:21

Well, the question, "was it

a coup" was never quite

0:21:210:21:23

answered unambiguously.

0:21:230:21:24

Certainly, President Robert Mugabe

was soon out of office,

0:21:240:21:27

but if it was a coup,

it was unusual in that the army

0:21:270:21:30

did its job peacefully,

then went away again

0:21:300:21:32

without installing one

of its generals

0:21:320:21:33

into the presidential palace.

0:21:330:21:34

Gabriel Gatehouse has been

in Zimbabwe for the last few days

0:21:340:21:37

piecing together what exactly

happened over the few days running

0:21:370:21:39

up to President Mugabe's

departure from office.

0:21:390:21:42

And, working out whether there

are grounds for optimism

0:21:420:21:44

at the man who replaced him.

0:21:440:21:48

It was Tuesday the 14th of November.

0:21:580:22:02

Ignatius Chombo, Zimbabwe's Finance

Minister, had gone to bed early

0:22:020:22:05

at his home in the affluent

suburbs of Harare.

0:22:050:22:11

Some time after midnight,

masked men, armed and wearing

0:22:110:22:13

military fatigues, burst

in and took him away.

0:22:130:22:19

Now he's in hospital, purged

from the party and under arrest.

0:22:190:22:24

We've come to see if he can

tell us his story.

0:22:240:22:28

Thank you very much.

0:22:280:22:31

Mr Chombo was on a bed behind

a screen under armed guard.

0:22:400:22:46

There are three soldiers

in there saying get out.

0:22:460:22:51

The following day, he appeared

in court charged with corruption.

0:22:550:22:58

But Mr Chombo's real difficulty

now is his association

0:22:580:23:01

with Zimbabwe's former First Lady.

0:23:010:23:06

We've been hearing some really quite

dramatic details about the arrests

0:23:060:23:10

of supporters of Grace Mugabe

on the night of

0:23:100:23:12

the 14th of November.

0:23:120:23:15

Events, really, that became

the starting gun for the coup that

0:23:150:23:18

overthrew Robert Mugabe.

0:23:180:23:26

As night fell, the cameras assembled

to catch a glimpse of one

0:23:260:23:29

of Zimbabwe's most powerful men,

humbled and shackled.

0:23:290:23:34

Herded into a prison van along

with common criminals.

0:23:340:23:41

As this country embarks

upon a new era, some habits,

0:23:410:23:43

it seems, die hard.

0:23:430:23:49

They bombed the gate

to his house and entered

0:23:490:23:53

through the roof, some of them.

0:23:530:23:55

Others, they broke the doors,

broke every door in the house

0:23:550:23:59

until they finally came

to where he was with his wife.

0:23:590:24:02

They were all asked to lie down.

0:24:020:24:06

They were then blindfolded

and he was taken out of the house.

0:24:060:24:10

Taken to a place where

he could not tell what place

0:24:100:24:13

it was and at the end of the day,

he was there for more

0:24:130:24:17

than seven days.

0:24:170:24:19

Blindfolded throughout the entire

period of his incarceration.

0:24:190:24:24

Fr Fidelis Mukonori is sometimes

called Mugabe's Confessor.

0:24:370:24:42

The events went very fast.

0:24:420:24:45

I was phoned by the

Permanent Secretary

0:24:450:24:49

in the Ministry of Information.

0:24:490:24:54

He said, Father, you know,

something's happened in the early

0:24:540:24:56

hours of this morning.

0:24:560:25:00

A Jesuit priest and close personal

friend of many years,

0:25:000:25:03

when the generals made their move,

they asked Fr Fidelis to mediate.

0:25:030:25:09

The tanks were in the street,

the boys were on the street.

0:25:090:25:14

And his generals were sombre,

sombre as anything.

0:25:140:25:21

There was no sign of jitteriness

or overexcitement or anger.

0:25:210:25:27

No.

0:25:270:25:28

Did it strike you as well planned?

0:25:280:25:32

Yes, well planned.

0:25:320:25:36

The generals had drawn up a list

of demands which centred around

0:25:360:25:39

the reinstatement of the exiled

Vice President, Emmerson Mnangagwa.

0:25:390:25:45

The main one was, we will not accept

the legacy of Zimbabwe,

0:25:450:25:51

the legacy of Robert Mugabe,

to be drained out or to be fizzled

0:25:510:25:55

out by opportunists.

0:25:550:26:00

After finishing the meeting

with the commanders, I drove

0:26:000:26:04

to President Mugabe's residence.

0:26:040:26:06

The blue roof.

0:26:060:26:09

And we read the points, one by one.

0:26:090:26:12

What was his reaction?

0:26:120:26:15

Robert Mugabe is a guerilla,

a fighter and a leader.

0:26:150:26:22

He never loses his calmness.

0:26:220:26:32

Not everyone who was at that first

meeting remembers things going

0:26:340:26:36

quite that smoothly.

0:26:360:26:37

Two people with knowledge

of the conversation that day told us

0:26:370:26:40

that Robert Mugabe said

to the generals, "You can go to hell

0:26:400:26:43

- you can kill me if you want to".

0:26:430:26:45

And perhaps, after 37

years in power, that's

0:26:450:26:47

a more plausible reaction.

0:26:470:26:50

But Robert Mugabe is the embodiment

of power in Zimbabwe.

0:26:500:26:54

And the aim is to control that

legacy, not to kill it.

0:26:540:26:58

It's a delicate operation

and it's not over yet.

0:26:580:27:02

The removal of Mugabe

from the Presidency brought euphoria

0:27:060:27:08

onto the streets of Harare.

0:27:080:27:11

How do you feel right now?

0:27:110:27:13

Fantastic.

0:27:130:27:15

This is a new Zimbabwe.

0:27:150:27:18

The inauguration of the new

President last Friday seemed

0:27:180:27:20

like a moment of great promise.

0:27:200:27:22

And yet, the figure of Robert Mugabe

retains some respect for his role

0:27:220:27:26

in the liberation struggle.

0:27:260:27:28

Despite a record of

political violence, endemic

0:27:280:27:31

corruption and unemployment.

0:27:310:27:37

The people, they are desperate.

0:27:370:27:39

That is why most of us

have supported Emmerson

0:27:390:27:41

Mnangagwa, because of jobs.

0:27:410:27:42

We are jobless.

0:27:420:27:45

Most of these people, they actually

hold degrees, Masters, PhD's.

0:27:450:27:49

But we're sitting at home

with nothing to do.

0:27:490:27:52

Can I ask you, how do you all feel

about President Mugabe?

0:27:520:27:55

Do you still like him

or do you not like him?

0:27:550:27:58

THEY CHANT "NO".

0:27:580:28:04

Since long, we didn't

like him but we were afraid

0:28:040:28:08

because if you were saying something

negative about him,

0:28:080:28:11

you would be butchered.

0:28:110:28:15

But this was no revolution.

0:28:150:28:17

The soldiers on the streets

heralded an internal

0:28:170:28:19

battle within Zanu-PF,

the ruling party.

0:28:190:28:25

Mnangagwa and the military had

gained the upper hand.

0:28:250:28:28

Grace Mugabe and her supporters

were losing their grip.

0:28:280:28:34

Walter Mzembi is among

the latter group.

0:28:340:28:37

He was appointed Foreign Minister

just before the coup and was a close

0:28:370:28:41

confidant of the Mugabes.

0:28:410:28:43

When the tanks appeared

on the street, his first thought

0:28:430:28:45

was for his own safety.

0:28:450:28:46

Nice place you have here.

0:28:460:28:49

Modest!

0:28:490:28:51

I was in my bedroom, upstairs.

0:28:510:28:54

I heard gunshots.

0:28:540:28:56

Of course, I said, this can't be

right, whatever it is.

0:28:560:29:01

You don't wait for yourself

to be captured, I suspect

0:29:010:29:05

that is what it is.

0:29:050:29:07

You don't wait for it to happen.

0:29:070:29:10

I obviously sought sanctuary.

0:29:100:29:11

Where did you go?

0:29:110:29:13

I just went into a hotel.

0:29:130:29:16

Looking back, Mr Mzembi says

he should have known

0:29:160:29:18

that trouble was coming.

0:29:180:29:20

Sometimes, the military

were giving us a warning.

0:29:200:29:23

What kind of warning?

0:29:230:29:25

That if we insisted and continued

to act the way we are doing

0:29:250:29:29

in the party, that would be

the end of him.

0:29:290:29:32

They gave you warnings?

0:29:320:29:34

In hindsight...

0:29:340:29:37

You realise they were warnings.

0:29:370:29:38

They were warning us.

0:29:380:29:40

We never took them seriously!

0:29:400:29:45

That was a mistake.

0:29:450:29:47

Grace Mugabe had made many enemies

using her power as First Lady

0:29:470:29:51

to publicly chastise party stalwarts

and veterans of the

0:29:510:29:53

liberation struggle.

0:29:530:29:58

Well, she would correct even

some of us in public.

0:29:580:30:03

And there was absolutely nothing

that I was felt was wrong...

0:30:030:30:06

In our culture, if you are

corrected by a mother.

0:30:060:30:09

Except when it tends

to border on abuse.

0:30:090:30:12

But as she corrected me...

0:30:120:30:13

Is that what happened?

0:30:130:30:15

I think she behaved like a of mother

would punish children

0:30:150:30:18

in public, I think.

0:30:180:30:22

That is what incensed others, yes.

0:30:220:30:31

Now the tables had turned.

0:30:310:30:33

From exile in South Africa,

Emmerson Mnangagwa sent

0:30:330:30:34

a message to Fr Fidelis.

0:30:340:30:36

He wanted to speak to Mugabe.

0:30:360:30:40

So, I called him on my phone

and I said, I'm sitting

0:30:400:30:43

next to the President.

0:30:430:30:48

He also wants to speak to you.

0:30:480:30:50

So the two spoke for

exactly ten minutes.

0:30:500:30:56

Mnangagwa had accused Grace

of trying to poison him.

0:30:560:30:58

Now he told his former boss...

0:30:580:31:01

He said I had to leave the country

for fear of my life.

0:31:010:31:09

And that's why I left the country.

0:31:090:31:13

You want me to come?

0:31:130:31:14

I love Zimbabwe.

0:31:140:31:17

Would you like to

deal with the issue?

0:31:170:31:18

Indeed, I will come.

0:31:180:31:20

So the President said,

please, please, come,

0:31:200:31:22

come, come right away.

0:31:220:31:27

And that was the last words.

0:31:270:31:32

That was on the Friday.

0:31:320:31:33

By the weekend, people were coming

out onto the streets, calling openly

0:31:330:31:36

from Robert Mugabe to go.

0:31:360:31:38

These were scenes unthinkable

just a few days earlier.

0:31:380:31:42

On Sunday, Mugabe

addressed the nation.

0:31:420:31:45

Everyone expected him to resign,

but still he clung on.

0:31:450:31:50

Some people close to Robert Mugabe

said that by this time,

0:31:500:31:53

he had already accepted that

Emmerson Mnangagwa would be his

0:31:530:31:56

successor, but he wanted to hand

over to him personally,

0:31:560:31:59

at the party congress in December.

0:31:590:32:02

Others, though, say

that he was still haggling over

0:32:020:32:04

the terms and conditions

of his retirement.

0:32:040:32:06

Immunity from prosecution,

the security of his and his wife's

0:32:060:32:10

businesses and properties.

0:32:100:32:12

Even a lump sum in cash.

0:32:120:32:15

Whatever the truth,

by the following Tuesday, the 21st,

0:32:150:32:18

Parliament had begun impeachment

proceedings and the game was up.

0:32:180:32:23

I pretty much was taken by surprise

when I heard that he had capitulated

0:32:230:32:27

and tendered his resignation.

0:32:270:32:30

But I thought that happened under

a break of pressure that was coming

0:32:300:32:34

from the impeachment

process in Parliament.

0:32:340:32:38

What do you think it was that

finally made him capitulate?

0:32:380:32:40

He was betrayed by his colleagues.

0:32:400:32:43

By their last-minute switch.

0:32:430:32:45

But that is politics!

0:32:450:32:48

Mr Mzembi himself backed

Mugabe to the last.

0:32:480:32:51

Now he supports the new President -

his loyalty, he says,

0:32:510:32:53

is to the office.

0:32:530:33:02

A short drive out of Harare,

through countryside of rolling

0:33:020:33:04

hills and gold mines,

brings you to Mazowe.

0:33:040:33:09

It was where Grace Mugabe

built her base, centred

0:33:090:33:11

around a sprawling mansion

behind stone pillars.

0:33:110:33:15

This is known as Graceland.

0:33:150:33:19

Many local people were

pushed off their farms

0:33:190:33:21

by the former First Lady.

0:33:210:33:23

Those who remain are still uneasy.

0:33:230:33:26

How has it been to be

the neighbour of Grace Mugabe?

0:33:260:33:30

Mmmmm?

0:33:300:33:36

A few people are

still scared to talk.

0:33:370:33:42

For the past three-and-a-half

decades, this country has been

0:33:420:33:44

held together by fear.

0:33:440:33:46

Few expect that to change quickly.

0:33:460:33:51

People said to me, a week ago,

I couldn't have come out

0:33:510:33:54

on the street and said

what I am saying now.

0:33:540:33:57

One person said to me,

I would have been...

0:33:570:34:01

I mean, that gives you some

indication of the kind of regime

0:34:010:34:04

that people have been living under,

that you were also part of?

0:34:040:34:08

Well, I didn't get the sense

that there was an infringement

0:34:080:34:11

of civil liberties in this country.

0:34:110:34:14

You don't think Robert Mugabe ran

a repressive regime?

0:34:140:34:19

To demonstrate without a police

order, I'm not sure it attracted

0:34:190:34:29

the attention of the police

at the time.

0:34:290:34:31

And I don't think even this

successor administration

0:34:310:34:33

would authorise expression

of freedom that led

0:34:330:34:35

to unauthorised demonstrations.

0:34:350:34:39

Do you think there will be a change?

0:34:390:34:41

They may have a false sense

of freedom if they think

0:34:410:34:45

that they can be out on the streets

to demonstrate without

0:34:450:34:48

police sanction.

0:34:480:34:53

For decades, Robert Mugabe

outsmarted his enemies,

0:34:530:34:56

foreign and domestic.

0:34:560:34:58

Now, the combination of political

acumen and intimidation that

0:34:580:35:01

kept him in power for so long

finally failed him.

0:35:010:35:05

Fr Fidelis was there

when he was presented

0:35:050:35:07

with his resignation papers.

0:35:070:35:10

He read them and he took

his pen and signed.

0:35:100:35:14

And when he finished his

signing, his face just...

0:35:140:35:19

Calmed.

0:35:190:35:21

It just glowed.

0:35:210:35:23

As if to say, wow, it's over.

0:35:230:35:33

So, what happens now?

0:35:340:35:37

The soldiers have largely

returned to their barracks.

0:35:370:35:39

Life has almost returned to normal.

0:35:390:35:42

After 37 years of rule dominated

by one man and one party,

0:35:420:35:46

the overwhelming imperative

for the new regime is

0:35:460:35:48

continuity, not change.

0:35:480:36:01

Gabriel Gatehouse reporting.

0:36:010:36:03

The murders of Lin and Megan Russell

in Chillenden in Kent back in 1996

0:36:030:36:07

shook the nation at the time.

0:36:070:36:08

The mother and daughter

were bludgeoned to death

0:36:080:36:10

while walking their dog.

0:36:100:36:11

Megan's sister was left for dead,

but amazingly survived the attack.

0:36:110:36:14

A year later, Kent Police thought

they'd found the killer,

0:36:140:36:17

a man called Michael Stone.

0:36:170:36:27

A drug user and criminal,

he was convicted for the murders

0:36:280:36:30

in 1998, on the basis not

of forensic evidence,

0:36:300:36:32

but alleged confessions he had

made to other prisoners.

0:36:320:36:34

He always denied the killings

but even in a retrial,

0:36:340:36:37

his conviction upheld.

0:36:370:36:38

However, Mr Stone's legal team claim

to have new evidence

0:36:380:36:40

that suggests it was,

in fact, the known murderer

0:36:400:36:43

Levi Bellfield who actually

killed the Russells.

0:36:430:36:45

They have presented their evidence

to the Criminal Case Review

0:36:450:36:48

Commission and now hope that

Michael Stone will soon be free.

0:36:480:36:52

They describe it as potentially

the largest miscarriage of justice

0:36:520:36:58

since the Birmingham Six case.

0:36:580:36:59

I'm joined by Barbara Stone -

Michael's sister who has always

0:36:590:37:02

asserted his innocence.

0:37:020:37:03

And Mark McDonald is

Michael Stone's barrister.

0:37:030:37:07

Good evening to you. Barbara, why

have you always felt so sure that he

0:37:070:37:15

was not the murderer?

Because I have

never seen any evidence or anything

0:37:150:37:19

that would suggest that he was. I

think the only reason that people

0:37:190:37:23

think he was the murderer is because

the police said that he did it. But

0:37:230:37:28

there is no evidence and I have

never seen anything.

He had

0:37:280:37:33

committed other crimes that they

were not like this?

He did, but they

0:37:330:37:38

were a different kind. I always say

he did the crime and he did the

0:37:380:37:42

time. I would not approve of all his

lifestyle choices but this is very

0:37:420:37:55

different to this, the murder of

women and children. That is not

0:37:550:37:57

something any of us would tribute to

him. Also around that time, there

0:37:570:38:00

were no behaviours that would

indicate that he had done that.

0:38:000:38:02

Mark, you have cited three pieces of

evidence which would point

0:38:020:38:06

potentially to Levi Bellfield. A

witness, some forensics evidence and

0:38:060:38:11

some prison confessions on his part.

The amazing thing is, for at least

0:38:110:38:17

two of those, that so long after the

murders, the evidence comes out now

0:38:170:38:20

and people would find that

perplexing?

First of all, with Levi

0:38:200:38:27

Bellfield, the trigger was a

documentary that ran in May of this

0:38:270:38:31

year, and that was a trigger for

discussion that took place because

0:38:310:38:36

Bellfield was worried that the

documentary may say something

0:38:360:38:40

prejudicial about him. That started

a conversation happening thereafter,

0:38:400:38:47

a series of conversations which were

part of the confession.

And as I

0:38:470:38:52

understand it, his confession, his

alleged confession had elements in

0:38:520:39:00

it that he would not have known by

reading newspaper accounts of the

0:39:000:39:06

original murderer?

And that is

important. When you look at the

0:39:060:39:10

confession or the alleged confession

that convicted Michael Stone,

0:39:100:39:15

nothing in that confession, there

was nothing, everything was in the

0:39:150:39:19

public domain. But it comes to...

From what you are citing?

From Levi

0:39:190:39:28

Bellfield, there are a number of

aspects and only the person who

0:39:280:39:32

committed the crime would know.

Just

briefly, is prison cell evidence, is

0:39:320:39:39

that good evidence? It is ironic

because Michael Stone was convicted

0:39:390:39:42

that and now you're citing some of

that in relation?

Cell confession

0:39:420:39:48

evidence is a problem and in

particular cell confession evidence

0:39:480:39:51

from somebody who is on remand which

is what convicted Michael Stone in

0:39:510:39:56

the first place, has huge problems

attached to it. What is important is

0:39:560:40:03

to look at the other evidence, the

corroborative evidence to go with

0:40:030:40:05

that. So, for example, with Damien

Daley, the witness who convicted

0:40:050:40:10

Michael Stone in the first trial, it

was clear that everything was in the

0:40:100:40:16

public domain, nothing new was in

that, whereas with Levi Bellfield,

0:40:160:40:21

there was a lot.

Barbara, how is

Michael Stone now? It must be a

0:40:210:40:30

roller-coaster of emotional turmoil

hearing that the evidence has come

0:40:300:40:33

out and then suddenly finding out

you do not know if it will have any

0:40:330:40:38

hope or not. How is he?

Mick is very

confident. I speak to him almost

0:40:380:40:46

daily. He is very confident about

the potential evidence. He is

0:40:460:40:53

convinced Bellfield is the guilty

party. We would not go that far at

0:40:530:40:56

the moment but my brother is

convinced that he did it. That is

0:40:560:41:01

because Mick would know that he

didn't. In order to get out of

0:41:010:41:05

prison, he is happy about that.

Kent

Police are not particularly keen on

0:41:050:41:11

reopening this case and we have a

long statement. It is unfair on the

0:41:110:41:15

victims to reopen the investigation.

It is important though, you want a

0:41:150:41:22

different police force to come in

and examine this?

We do. That have

0:41:220:41:26

been problems over the years with

the Kent Police force, actually

0:41:260:41:29

going right back to the first trial,

the way that they obtained evidence,

0:41:290:41:33

and thereafter that have been a

number of issues, including missing

0:41:330:41:39

on losing an important exhibit. So,

yes we do. Their statement today is

0:41:390:41:44

quite bizarre. So we do have

concerns. It goes back many years.

0:41:440:41:51

Where we are now, this is with the

criminal cases review commission.

0:41:510:41:56

The criminal cases review commission

need to look at this. I know they

0:41:560:42:00

are investigating it, but it is

clear that the evidence is quite

0:42:000:42:02

compelling and it needs to be

referred back to the Court of Appeal

0:42:020:42:07

soon enough.

Thank you both for

coming in.

0:42:070:42:13

That is all we have time for.

Tomorrow, Kamal Ahmed will be here.

0:42:130:42:17

Good night.

0:42:170:42:20

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