Browse content similar to 13/12/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It was going so well
for the Prime Minister, then this. | 0:00:05 | 0:00:11 | |
The ayes to the right, 309. | 0:00:11 | 0:00:12 | |
The noes to the left, 305. | 0:00:12 | 0:00:14 | |
CHEERING. | 0:00:14 | 0:00:16 | |
A vote on a vote. | 0:00:16 | 0:00:18 | |
And it didn't go
the government's way. | 0:00:18 | 0:00:22 | |
Hours before a Brussels summit
that is supposed to ease | 0:00:22 | 0:00:25 | |
Brexit talks through to part two,
Tory rebels tonight managed | 0:00:25 | 0:00:27 | |
to force the government to give MPs
a meaningful vote on Brexit, | 0:00:27 | 0:00:31 | |
after a fractious debate that
exposed division and distrust | 0:00:31 | 0:00:34 | |
within the Conservatives. | 0:00:34 | 0:00:40 | |
Clause nine is not about
implementing leaving the European | 0:00:40 | 0:00:44 | |
Union. Yes, it is. Read it. And sit
down. A parliamentary defeat for the | 0:00:44 | 0:00:55 | |
Prime Minister. | 0:00:55 | 0:00:56 | |
A parliamentary defeat
for the Prime Minister. | 0:00:56 | 0:00:57 | |
A humiliating setback
for the government - | 0:00:57 | 0:00:59 | |
but what might it change? | 0:00:59 | 0:01:00 | |
The man who used to run MI6
gives us his first ever | 0:01:00 | 0:01:03 | |
broadcast interview,
with a surprising take on terror. | 0:01:03 | 0:01:05 | |
You know we need to keep
a sense of proportion | 0:01:05 | 0:01:07 | |
about what we are dealing with. | 0:01:07 | 0:01:09 | |
I mean I don't think terrorism
in its current form presents | 0:01:09 | 0:01:11 | |
a systemic threat to the nation. | 0:01:11 | 0:01:14 | |
A giant mouse and a shrinking mogul
- Rupert Murdoch gets ready | 0:01:14 | 0:01:17 | |
to downsize his empire. | 0:01:17 | 0:01:21 | |
What does Disney's expected takeover
for fox mean for the media, and for | 0:01:21 | 0:01:26 | |
Sky News? | 0:01:26 | 0:01:27 | |
Sky News? | 0:01:27 | 0:01:29 | |
And we know something
went wrong with building | 0:01:29 | 0:01:31 | |
regulations at Grenfell -
now Chris Cook reports on concerns | 0:01:31 | 0:01:34 | |
over the fire safety of furniture. | 0:01:34 | 0:01:40 | |
Hello. | 0:01:40 | 0:01:42 | |
Well, after a run of good headlines,
and just hours before she travels | 0:01:42 | 0:01:45 | |
to the European Council in Brussels,
the Prime Minister suffered | 0:01:45 | 0:01:48 | |
her first proper defeat
of this parliament tonight. | 0:01:48 | 0:01:51 | |
A vote on Amendment 7
to the EU Withdrawal Bill, | 0:01:51 | 0:01:53 | |
giving MPs the power to vote
on the withdrawal deal | 0:01:53 | 0:01:56 | |
when it is ready. | 0:01:56 | 0:01:59 | |
The government says that could
derail a smooth and timely Brexit, | 0:01:59 | 0:02:03 | |
but it was a sign of how finely
divided parliament is, the MPs | 0:02:03 | 0:02:06 | |
split almost down the middle. | 0:02:06 | 0:02:08 | |
But also a sign that
the Conservative party | 0:02:08 | 0:02:14 | |
has enough rebels -
11 this evening - to obstruct | 0:02:14 | 0:02:16 | |
the government's plans. | 0:02:16 | 0:02:17 | |
What a day it was in the Commons. | 0:02:17 | 0:02:21 | |
Would she be so good as to accept
the right honourable and learn a | 0:02:21 | 0:02:27 | |
gentleman's Amendment seven in the
spirit of unity for everybody here | 0:02:27 | 0:02:30 | |
and in the country? I find it
entertaining that somebody who | 0:02:30 | 0:02:35 | |
criticise me for speaking my mind on
this matter are individuals who | 0:02:35 | 0:02:40 | |
appear to have exercised the luxury
of rebellion on many occasions. The | 0:02:40 | 0:02:45 | |
idea that somehow undermined the
referendum decision is just a load | 0:02:45 | 0:02:49 | |
of rubbish. She talked about a delay
of a couple of months. But if the | 0:02:49 | 0:02:54 | |
treaty is not right in the eyes of
this parliament than a couple of | 0:02:54 | 0:02:57 | |
months could turn into a couple of
years and indeed some cases people | 0:02:57 | 0:03:01 | |
would like it to be a couple of
decades. The ayes to the right 309, | 0:03:01 | 0:03:07 | |
the noes to the left 305. Parliament
has asserted itself, the Prime | 0:03:07 | 0:03:15 | |
Minister tried a power grab, tried
to push through a bill without | 0:03:15 | 0:03:18 | |
proper Parliamentary scrutiny. | 0:03:18 | 0:03:20 | |
proper Parliamentary scrutiny. | 0:03:20 | 0:03:22 | |
The vote came after
seven this evening. | 0:03:22 | 0:03:26 | |
One of the rebels, Stephen Hammond
had been sacked from his job as | 0:03:26 | 0:03:31 | |
vice-chair of the Conservative
Party. Dominic Greene is a former | 0:03:31 | 0:03:36 | |
attorney general, whose amendment it
was. Bernard Jenkin is a Brexit | 0:03:36 | 0:03:40 | |
supporting colleague of his from the
backbenches. | 0:03:40 | 0:03:42 | |
backbenches. | 0:03:42 | 0:03:43 | |
Our political editor,
Nick Watt, is with me. | 0:03:43 | 0:03:46 | |
It was quite a moment. Quite a cock
up somewhere in the way the | 0:03:46 | 0:03:51 | |
government manage the whole
business. There are a lot ministers | 0:03:51 | 0:03:59 | |
been very critical of their own
government this evening. One said we | 0:03:59 | 0:04:03 | |
had very clumsy and stupid, late
concessions by the government. | 0:04:03 | 0:04:08 | |
Another said the whips should have
known how very close this was. A lot | 0:04:08 | 0:04:12 | |
of criticism tonight of the Chief
Whip Julian Smith. One Cabinet | 0:04:12 | 0:04:16 | |
minister said, rule number one for a
Chief Whip is no how to count. | 0:04:16 | 0:04:23 | |
Another one told Julian Smith
earlier this week, you are going to | 0:04:23 | 0:04:27 | |
lose this vote unless you make major
concessions ahead of the vote. It is | 0:04:27 | 0:04:32 | |
important to say this is the second
slip up in two weeks by Julian | 0:04:32 | 0:04:36 | |
Smith. A lot of people are saying
that had his predecessor Gavin | 0:04:36 | 0:04:41 | |
Williams been in place who had close
contacts with the DUP, the Prime | 0:04:41 | 0:04:45 | |
Minister would not have been so
exposed to that meeting in Brussels | 0:04:45 | 0:04:49 | |
last Monday. For the people who
wanted to remain, what is their take | 0:04:49 | 0:04:56 | |
on how important this is? I saw one
remain minister this evening who I | 0:04:56 | 0:05:02 | |
could say had at best crocodile
tears. Another figure said this is a | 0:05:02 | 0:05:08 | |
very significant moment. This person
said to me, this is the canary in | 0:05:08 | 0:05:12 | |
the coal mine. This is the moment
when the government needs to accept | 0:05:12 | 0:05:17 | |
there is no majority in this
Parliament for a hard Brexit. There | 0:05:17 | 0:05:22 | |
is no majority in this Parliament
for no Deal Brexit and the | 0:05:22 | 0:05:25 | |
government should now be working
with the majority in parliament, not | 0:05:25 | 0:05:29 | |
one side. And there is a big vote
next week and the government will | 0:05:29 | 0:05:34 | |
seek to put on the face of the bill
the date of Brexit, the 29th of | 0:05:34 | 0:05:41 | |
March, 2019. There was a lot of
injured Tory party hostility today, | 0:05:41 | 0:05:46 | |
there was not a love in the room
between the two sides. A lot of | 0:05:46 | 0:05:50 | |
anger with the rebels. There is fury
within government with Dominic | 0:05:50 | 0:05:55 | |
Grieve. I spoke to one minister at
the heart of this or said, Dominic | 0:05:55 | 0:06:00 | |
Grieve will field the chilling
hangover of what he has done and | 0:06:00 | 0:06:03 | |
what he has done is he has weakened
the Prime Minister on the eve of the | 0:06:03 | 0:06:08 | |
European Council in Brussels
tomorrow. This minister said, there | 0:06:08 | 0:06:15 | |
are two options. One, it is not
worth the candle, let's just the | 0:06:15 | 0:06:19 | |
amendment passed. The second option
is to say to Dominic Grieve, you | 0:06:19 | 0:06:25 | |
said earlier if you're amendment was
accepted, you would agree to a | 0:06:25 | 0:06:29 | |
negotiation at the report stage
about a compromise in which both | 0:06:29 | 0:06:34 | |
sides can be happy, presumably your
offer still stands. Let's talk to my | 0:06:34 | 0:06:41 | |
political guests. Dominic Grieve has
been talked about whilst sitting | 0:06:41 | 0:06:44 | |
there very patiently. The knives are
pretty much out for you, aren't | 0:06:44 | 0:06:47 | |
they? I doubt it, I am not concerned
about knives be out for me. I am in | 0:06:47 | 0:06:54 | |
parliament to do my duty by my
constituents and for my country. | 0:06:54 | 0:06:58 | |
Knives can be anywhere, I will not
be bothered by that in any way at | 0:06:58 | 0:07:03 | |
all. What I am is intent on trying
to support the government in doing | 0:07:03 | 0:07:07 | |
the right thing and the right thing
is carrying out Brexit in an | 0:07:07 | 0:07:10 | |
orderly, sensible way which has a
proper process to it and which | 0:07:10 | 0:07:15 | |
enables the right decisions to be
made at the right time. That is what | 0:07:15 | 0:07:20 | |
I will continue to do. I am sorry to
hear if colleagues think so ill of | 0:07:20 | 0:07:24 | |
me. But it is not going to affect
what I do one bit. You will vote | 0:07:24 | 0:07:31 | |
next week against this idea of
having a fixed legal date for | 0:07:31 | 0:07:35 | |
Brexit? I hope it will not be
necessary. I am sure the government | 0:07:35 | 0:07:41 | |
will be defeated and I have no
desire to defeat the government for | 0:07:41 | 0:07:45 | |
a second time. I have been in
parliament for 20 years and apart | 0:07:45 | 0:07:49 | |
from HS2 I have not rebelled before.
Are you open to negotiation and | 0:07:49 | 0:07:55 | |
compromise on the way the issue of
the votes are handle? My whole life | 0:07:55 | 0:08:01 | |
is negotiation. I tabled these
amendments over a month ago, I have | 0:08:01 | 0:08:05 | |
had a very sensible dialogue with
government ministers about what | 0:08:05 | 0:08:07 | |
their purposes, sometimes probing,
sometimes teasing out, sometimes | 0:08:07 | 0:08:14 | |
pointing out flaws. So far until
this evening we had always managed | 0:08:14 | 0:08:19 | |
sensible outcomes which improved
legislation and kept everybody | 0:08:19 | 0:08:22 | |
broadly happy. I am sorry the
negotiations foundered, it was a | 0:08:22 | 0:08:27 | |
spectacular foundering, I cannot
deny that. There appears to have | 0:08:27 | 0:08:31 | |
been a complete breakdown within
government as to how to answer | 0:08:31 | 0:08:36 | |
perfectly legitimate points which is
worrying, but people will learn from | 0:08:36 | 0:08:43 | |
experience. I also noted I have
colleagues who work pro-Brexit and | 0:08:43 | 0:08:48 | |
much more supportive of the
government who were pointed out that | 0:08:48 | 0:08:51 | |
the legislation was in a very bad
condition and could not be allowed | 0:08:51 | 0:08:55 | |
to stay in the condition it was in.
You learned the Brexiteers and the | 0:08:55 | 0:09:01 | |
government think all of this is a
back door way of giving the MPs a | 0:09:01 | 0:09:05 | |
chance to impose a soft Brexit,
something closer to Norway, if the | 0:09:05 | 0:09:10 | |
government comes back with something
closer to Canada. That is possible | 0:09:10 | 0:09:15 | |
because you now have that veto power
at a late stage in the process. | 0:09:15 | 0:09:19 | |
Correct or not? The exact terms of
Brexit are matter for negotiation | 0:09:19 | 0:09:24 | |
for the government. It is right that
I will not have the closing down of | 0:09:24 | 0:09:29 | |
options, I have said that on many
occasions. The impression we have | 0:09:29 | 0:09:34 | |
had is of options being closed down
and that is not acceptable. Does | 0:09:34 | 0:09:39 | |
this make a soft Brexit more likely?
Is it meaningful in that sense? You | 0:09:39 | 0:09:45 | |
may be misreading this. This bill is
about process, not outcome. It is | 0:09:45 | 0:09:51 | |
true that process matters, but this
bill is about how you carry out a | 0:09:51 | 0:09:55 | |
process rather than the negotiation
itself. I have been studious in not | 0:09:55 | 0:10:00 | |
trying to interfere with the
government's negotiating strategy. I | 0:10:00 | 0:10:04 | |
have hardly asked a question because
I think Parliament's ability to | 0:10:04 | 0:10:08 | |
interfere with a negotiating
strategy is limited. But I am of the | 0:10:08 | 0:10:13 | |
view that it is in the country's
interest that we keep a close | 0:10:13 | 0:10:17 | |
relationship with the EU or suffer
serious consequences. I would like | 0:10:17 | 0:10:22 | |
the Brexit that minimises risk and
maximises opportunity. Let me turn | 0:10:22 | 0:10:26 | |
to Bernard Jenkin. I know you do not
want to have an on-air, blue on blue | 0:10:26 | 0:10:32 | |
fight here in the studio. Do you
think this gives MPs some back door | 0:10:32 | 0:10:39 | |
away of imposing a softer version of
Brexit? Obviously some people think | 0:10:39 | 0:10:49 | |
it does, but it does not change the
price of fish very much. The | 0:10:49 | 0:10:54 | |
government has been frank that this
is only about how you implement the | 0:10:54 | 0:10:57 | |
withdrawal. If it does not change
the direction of things, what is the | 0:10:57 | 0:11:03 | |
problem? What it means is because
these powers will now not be | 0:11:03 | 0:11:08 | |
available to the government to use
until another act of Parliament has | 0:11:08 | 0:11:11 | |
been passed, it may mean that we
have to pass an extra act of | 0:11:11 | 0:11:16 | |
Parliament very late in the day at
the very top speed and I do not | 0:11:16 | 0:11:20 | |
think that is necessarily the better
outcome. But it is life. The problem | 0:11:20 | 0:11:28 | |
is the act of Parliament that
implements the withdrawal agreement | 0:11:28 | 0:11:31 | |
may not finished going through
Parliament until after we have left. | 0:11:31 | 0:11:35 | |
It is all very complicated and very
obscure. What was sad was that | 0:11:35 | 0:11:41 | |
however clumsily, the government was
offering concessions at the last | 0:11:41 | 0:11:45 | |
minute and some of the rebels were
just shouting, too late, too late, | 0:11:45 | 0:11:51 | |
which sounded a little petulant. How
many times have you voted against | 0:11:51 | 0:11:56 | |
the Conservatives? Probably scores
of times. Is it not rich to be | 0:11:56 | 0:12:03 | |
haranguing the people who voted
against the government? I was not | 0:12:03 | 0:12:07 | |
haranguing anybody today, I was
engaging in honest debate. You | 0:12:07 | 0:12:12 | |
disagree with Nadine Dorries who
said there should be deselected and | 0:12:12 | 0:12:14 | |
should never be allowed to stand
again? Yes, I do, that is not very | 0:12:14 | 0:12:19 | |
helpful. I rebelled to try and get a
referendum. I rebelled years ago on | 0:12:19 | 0:12:27 | |
the martial treaty when they refuse
to have a referendum. I rebelled | 0:12:27 | 0:12:30 | |
when powers were being taken away
from Parliament did not even touch | 0:12:30 | 0:12:36 | |
the ground when legislation was
being made in this country. All of | 0:12:36 | 0:12:40 | |
these powers are commendable and
controllable by Parliament and | 0:12:40 | 0:12:43 | |
ultimately they are only temporary.
We have had a referendum. If the | 0:12:43 | 0:12:50 | |
majority of MPs took the view they
wanted a softer Brexit than the one | 0:12:50 | 0:12:53 | |
currently being talked about, is it
legitimate for them to impose that | 0:12:53 | 0:12:57 | |
on the government if some
Parliamentary way of doing that can | 0:12:57 | 0:13:02 | |
be found? Is that legitimate? Nearly
everybody voted for Article 50. The | 0:13:02 | 0:13:09 | |
reality is you try to negotiate the
withdrawal agreement and a free | 0:13:09 | 0:13:13 | |
trade agreement, but if an
acceptable arrangement does not | 0:13:13 | 0:13:18 | |
emerge, you are still leaving. I
personally do not want that, I hope | 0:13:18 | 0:13:23 | |
we get the agreement. Some people
are trying to reverse... We are | 0:13:23 | 0:13:28 | |
going to hear a new phrase.
Brexinos, where we have all the | 0:13:28 | 0:13:39 | |
regulations impose upon us and we do
not have the freedom to do trade | 0:13:39 | 0:13:42 | |
deals with other countries. Some
people say it is a soft Brexit and | 0:13:42 | 0:13:49 | |
Theresa May has called it a
non-Brexit. We have to leave it | 0:13:49 | 0:13:52 | |
there. | 0:13:52 | 0:13:55 | |
If you ever want to meet
someone who personifies | 0:13:55 | 0:13:57 | |
the British establishment,
you won't do better | 0:13:57 | 0:13:59 | |
than an encounter
with Sir Richard Dearlove. | 0:13:59 | 0:14:03 | |
He may have a low personal profile,
but he had a long career | 0:14:03 | 0:14:06 | |
in the intelligence services
and was put in charge of MI6 | 0:14:06 | 0:14:10 | |
for five years under Tony Blair. | 0:14:10 | 0:14:13 | |
That makes him M if you like your
Bond movies, although actually | 0:14:13 | 0:14:16 | |
they used the letter C
for the boss in real life. | 0:14:16 | 0:14:21 | |
In his time at MI6 in its famous
building on the South bank | 0:14:21 | 0:14:24 | |
of the Thames he had to handle 9/11,
the build-up to the war in Iraq, | 0:14:24 | 0:14:28 | |
and the controversy over
the so-called dodgy dossier | 0:14:28 | 0:14:32 | |
that exaggerated the certainty
of the intelligence | 0:14:32 | 0:14:34 | |
for Iraq having WMD. | 0:14:34 | 0:14:39 | |
He was actually criticised
in the Chilcott report for adding | 0:14:39 | 0:14:43 | |
weight to a report that had not
been properly evaluated. | 0:14:43 | 0:14:47 | |
He went on to be on a master
of a Cambridge college, | 0:14:47 | 0:14:51 | |
so in short he is the kind of man
you might either see as a public | 0:14:51 | 0:14:55 | |
servant who has helped
keep the country secure, | 0:14:55 | 0:14:57 | |
or as part of a deep state that has
been getting everything wrong. | 0:14:57 | 0:15:05 | |
But while Sir Richard
is an establishment insider, | 0:15:09 | 0:15:11 | |
he has taken a different view
from most of his counterparts | 0:15:11 | 0:15:14 | |
on Brexit - he's in favour. | 0:15:14 | 0:15:15 | |
He's just written an open letter
to President Macron in France, | 0:15:15 | 0:15:18 | |
explaining why it's in the EU's
interest to let us go, so the 27 can | 0:15:18 | 0:15:22 | |
get on with the integration
they need without us | 0:15:22 | 0:15:24 | |
getting in the way. | 0:15:24 | 0:15:27 | |
Being a former head of MI6,
he's kept away from | 0:15:27 | 0:15:29 | |
broadcast interviews. | 0:15:29 | 0:15:31 | |
But given where we are
with Brexit, he agreed | 0:15:31 | 0:15:33 | |
to his first one with Newsnight. | 0:15:33 | 0:15:40 | |
I asked him why you thought Brexit
was a good idea. -- why he thought. | 0:15:40 | 0:15:46 | |
I am looking more generally I think
than the average person at Europe. | 0:15:46 | 0:15:49 | |
We have always been skin deep
members of the European Union. | 0:15:49 | 0:15:53 | |
We have believed in
a shallow political union. | 0:15:53 | 0:15:57 | |
Quite honestly if Macron
is determined to integrate Europe | 0:15:57 | 0:16:04 | |
politically as he states, he really
does not want us to be part of it | 0:16:04 | 0:16:08 | |
because we would be very effective
in stopping his progress. | 0:16:08 | 0:16:10 | |
So what I am arguing
is that we are offering | 0:16:10 | 0:16:13 | |
continental Europe and opportunity. | 0:16:13 | 0:16:22 | |
We can be very supportive
of a united Continental | 0:16:22 | 0:16:24 | |
Europe which will serve
our interests closely. | 0:16:24 | 0:16:26 | |
There is no disaster
about the UK returning to | 0:16:26 | 0:16:31 | |
a mid Atlantic position which is
the one that we have | 0:16:31 | 0:16:33 | |
traditionally occupied. | 0:16:33 | 0:16:34 | |
You have used a very interesting
phrase, we can go back | 0:16:34 | 0:16:37 | |
to our mid Atlantic position. | 0:16:37 | 0:16:38 | |
A lot of people would
say, yes, the mid | 0:16:38 | 0:16:41 | |
Atlantic position is lovely,
except with time as president. | 0:16:41 | 0:16:47 | |
-- with Trump as president. | 0:16:47 | 0:16:48 | |
Something really big has
changed, the US is no | 0:16:48 | 0:16:50 | |
longer what it was. | 0:16:50 | 0:16:51 | |
Trump is president,
and that is a large element of | 0:16:51 | 0:16:54 | |
unpredictability. | 0:16:54 | 0:16:55 | |
Trump is only going to
be there probably for | 0:16:55 | 0:16:57 | |
another three years. | 0:16:57 | 0:16:59 | |
I think we need to
think more broadly. | 0:16:59 | 0:17:01 | |
We have a very close
relationship with the | 0:17:01 | 0:17:08 | |
United States, not only in defence
and security terms, but also in | 0:17:08 | 0:17:11 | |
trading terms. | 0:17:11 | 0:17:14 | |
I mean, I think I could make
a convincing argument | 0:17:14 | 0:17:16 | |
that in some respects Trump's
administration, in terms of the | 0:17:16 | 0:17:21 | |
relations with the UK,
have not been altogether | 0:17:21 | 0:17:25 | |
as difficult as Obama. | 0:17:25 | 0:17:27 | |
Well, that's an interesting
one, isn't it? | 0:17:27 | 0:17:33 | |
Obama was closer to the centre
of the values of the UK, probably. | 0:17:33 | 0:17:36 | |
Yes, certainly in
value terms, I agree. | 0:17:36 | 0:17:39 | |
Trump has been unreliable
as well, hasn't he? | 0:17:39 | 0:17:40 | |
I'm thinking particularly
on intelligence, your old industry. | 0:17:40 | 0:17:44 | |
After the Manchester bombing, photos
were sent to American intelligence | 0:17:44 | 0:17:50 | |
and they appeared in
the New York Times. | 0:17:50 | 0:17:52 | |
He has done some unpredictable
things, but I don't | 0:17:52 | 0:17:54 | |
think you should necessarily judge
the intelligence relationship in | 0:17:54 | 0:17:58 | |
terms of Trump's Tweets. | 0:17:58 | 0:18:01 | |
Do think they are a reliable
ally for intelligence | 0:18:01 | 0:18:03 | |
purposes at the moment? | 0:18:03 | 0:18:04 | |
I think there are still a very
reliable ally for intelligence | 0:18:04 | 0:18:06 | |
purposes, and I'm sure if you asked
that question of the head of CIA he | 0:18:06 | 0:18:10 | |
would give you a very
positive and true indeed. | 0:18:10 | 0:18:17 | |
Do you believe the Christopher
Steele dossier on Trump? | 0:18:17 | 0:18:20 | |
This was the document
which said some salacious... | 0:18:20 | 0:18:28 | |
I'm not going to get into that. | 0:18:28 | 0:18:29 | |
But you knew Christopher Steele. | 0:18:29 | 0:18:31 | |
I won't confirm or deny
that I knew Christopher. | 0:18:31 | 0:18:34 | |
I think that there is probably some
credibility to the content. | 0:18:34 | 0:18:38 | |
I wouldn't put it any more
forcefully than that. | 0:18:38 | 0:18:42 | |
The other superpower,
or would be superpower | 0:18:42 | 0:18:48 | |
that Brexit affects our relationship
with, is Russia, isn't it? | 0:18:48 | 0:18:53 | |
And many people are
worried that what Brexit | 0:18:53 | 0:18:55 | |
is doing is undermining
the cohesiveness of Europe. | 0:18:55 | 0:18:59 | |
In offering a forceful counterweight
to Russian mischief. | 0:18:59 | 0:19:07 | |
Well, I disagree with you saying
that the EU necessarily | 0:19:07 | 0:19:11 | |
offers that counterweight. | 0:19:11 | 0:19:14 | |
The EU doesn't have
the military capability | 0:19:14 | 0:19:16 | |
or power to balance Russia. | 0:19:16 | 0:19:24 | |
And what's interesting
is we have seen a | 0:19:24 | 0:19:29 | |
considerable revival of a Nato. | 0:19:29 | 0:19:30 | |
A revival in Nato? | 0:19:30 | 0:19:31 | |
Well, yes. | 0:19:31 | 0:19:34 | |
I thought of Trump was
busy questioning it. | 0:19:34 | 0:19:36 | |
He did question it. | 0:19:36 | 0:19:39 | |
But I think his recent statements
show actually that the American | 0:19:39 | 0:19:45 | |
commitment to Nato is not
fundamentally in question. | 0:19:45 | 0:19:50 | |
And I think that one
of the ancillaries of | 0:19:50 | 0:19:52 | |
Brexit should be an increase
in our defence spending. | 0:19:52 | 0:19:56 | |
On Russia, some have
argued that basically they | 0:19:56 | 0:20:00 | |
interfered in the Brexit referendum
because they felt that it was in | 0:20:00 | 0:20:08 | |
their interests for
Britain to vote out. | 0:20:08 | 0:20:10 | |
Are you convinced
by those arguments? | 0:20:10 | 0:20:11 | |
No, not at all. | 0:20:11 | 0:20:13 | |
I mean, I don't think,
I've not seen anything | 0:20:13 | 0:20:15 | |
that can convince me
at all that the Russians intervened | 0:20:15 | 0:20:18 | |
significantly in the Brexit
referendum. | 0:20:18 | 0:20:21 | |
But they might have
intervened in the US? | 0:20:21 | 0:20:24 | |
I don't think there's
any question they got | 0:20:24 | 0:20:26 | |
involved in the US election. | 0:20:26 | 0:20:30 | |
I think probably on
Putin's part that was | 0:20:30 | 0:20:31 | |
a misjudgement. | 0:20:31 | 0:20:34 | |
OK, so I sort of understand
the geography of your argument. | 0:20:34 | 0:20:37 | |
On terror, you said it's
containable and | 0:20:37 | 0:20:39 | |
ultimately manageable. | 0:20:39 | 0:20:47 | |
Now is that what marks you out
from your successors? | 0:20:47 | 0:20:50 | |
I believe strongly,
personally, in the | 0:20:50 | 0:20:52 | |
issue of proportionality.
And... | 0:20:52 | 0:20:58 | |
What I mean by proportionality
is we have a lot of serious social | 0:20:58 | 0:21:01 | |
problems to deal with,
and the chances of | 0:21:01 | 0:21:10 | |
in a terrorist attack,
even when the terrorist | 0:21:10 | 0:21:12 | |
attack is quite high, are
relatively low. | 0:21:12 | 0:21:14 | |
The problem is that
when attacks happen they are | 0:21:14 | 0:21:17 | |
shocking, catastrophic. | 0:21:17 | 0:21:19 | |
And of course you get
a massive media | 0:21:19 | 0:21:21 | |
reaction to them. | 0:21:21 | 0:21:23 | |
Too much of a media
reaction, do you think? | 0:21:23 | 0:21:25 | |
Yes, I think so. | 0:21:25 | 0:21:26 | |
We've had this debate. | 0:21:26 | 0:21:27 | |
I know, and I'm not
blaming the media | 0:21:27 | 0:21:29 | |
for the world in which we live. | 0:21:29 | 0:21:31 | |
It's inevitable. | 0:21:31 | 0:21:32 | |
It's what audiences
are talking about. | 0:21:32 | 0:21:33 | |
Exactly. | 0:21:33 | 0:21:34 | |
But we need to keep a sense
of proportion about | 0:21:34 | 0:21:37 | |
what we are dealing with. | 0:21:37 | 0:21:38 | |
I don't think terrorism
in its current form | 0:21:38 | 0:21:40 | |
presents a systemic
threat to the nation. | 0:21:40 | 0:21:44 | |
It presents the possibility
of horrible happenings, which we are | 0:21:44 | 0:21:47 | |
learning how to deal with. | 0:21:47 | 0:21:52 | |
And of course,
at the moment there is | 0:21:52 | 0:21:54 | |
unquestionably going to be
a heightened risk as we have got | 0:21:54 | 0:21:56 | |
more returnees coming back
from Syria, | 0:21:56 | 0:21:58 | |
probably from Afghanistan as well. | 0:21:58 | 0:22:03 | |
I want to come back
to this issue of trust. | 0:22:03 | 0:22:05 | |
Do you feel... | 0:22:05 | 0:22:06 | |
You may say it doesn't
explain Brexit, but do you | 0:22:06 | 0:22:09 | |
feel the establishment is viewed
with a kind of anger and distaste? | 0:22:09 | 0:22:16 | |
I mean, it could be the expenses
scandal, it could be the financial | 0:22:16 | 0:22:19 | |
crash, it could be Iraq. | 0:22:19 | 0:22:21 | |
I think that is a dangerous
generalisation, | 0:22:21 | 0:22:23 | |
Evan, I really do. | 0:22:23 | 0:22:24 | |
Do you? | 0:22:24 | 0:22:25 | |
I mean, you were
involved in the Iraq | 0:22:25 | 0:22:27 | |
build-up. | 0:22:27 | 0:22:28 | |
Do you think responsibility
was taken for the | 0:22:28 | 0:22:31 | |
mistakes made at that
time, the dodgy dossier? | 0:22:31 | 0:22:36 | |
We're not here to discuss
Iraq, and if we start on | 0:22:36 | 0:22:39 | |
that track we will be
here for hours. | 0:22:39 | 0:22:43 | |
But just in general, do you see that
as an area where some of | 0:22:43 | 0:22:46 | |
the rot set in in this relationship
between the government and the | 0:22:46 | 0:22:51 | |
governed in this country? | 0:22:51 | 0:22:52 | |
No, I don't think so. | 0:22:52 | 0:22:54 | |
So much as subsequently
happened in the Middle | 0:22:54 | 0:22:56 | |
East that that would
be a facile argument. | 0:22:56 | 0:22:57 | |
Can I ask one last one? | 0:22:57 | 0:23:01 | |
Talk to a lot of people, mostly
Remainers but not exclusively, who | 0:23:01 | 0:23:03 | |
think the world is going
to hell in a handcart. | 0:23:03 | 0:23:11 | |
What's your sort of analysis? | 0:23:11 | 0:23:14 | |
Is this a 10-year process
of turbulence, our be talking to | 0:23:14 | 0:23:17 | |
years of turbulence? | 0:23:17 | 0:23:18 | |
I would have thought
probably nearer five. | 0:23:18 | 0:23:20 | |
Nearer five. | 0:23:20 | 0:23:21 | |
I think we can emerge from that
in a pretty strong position, if | 0:23:21 | 0:23:24 | |
we do not lose self belief
and self-confidence. | 0:23:24 | 0:23:29 | |
Sir Richard Dearlove,
thank you very much. | 0:23:29 | 0:23:31 | |
Evan, thank you. | 0:23:31 | 0:23:35 | |
Tomorrow could be a decisive day
in the history of Rupert Murdoch | 0:23:35 | 0:23:38 | |
and his enormous media empire. | 0:23:38 | 0:23:45 | |
For over half a century he has
been building it up. | 0:23:45 | 0:23:48 | |
If reports out of America are to be
believed, tomorrow could see a very | 0:23:48 | 0:23:51 | |
significant restructuring
because Disney appears | 0:23:51 | 0:23:52 | |
poised to takeover
a huge chunk of it - | 0:23:52 | 0:23:54 | |
20th Century Fox. | 0:23:54 | 0:23:56 | |
A huge deal that would leave Murdoch
controlling a much smaller and more | 0:23:56 | 0:23:59 | |
focussed group of news businesses. | 0:23:59 | 0:24:00 | |
But what does this tell us
about the media industry - | 0:24:00 | 0:24:06 | |
and what could it mean for Sky,
and particularly Sky News in the UK? | 0:24:06 | 0:24:09 | |
I'm joined from New York
by Shannon Bond, the US | 0:24:09 | 0:24:12 | |
Media Correspondent
for the Financial Times. | 0:24:12 | 0:24:13 | |
And in the studio by David Yelland. | 0:24:13 | 0:24:15 | |
He's the former editor of the Sun
and knows Rupert Murdoch very well. | 0:24:15 | 0:24:23 | |
Is it right to view this as Murdoch
retreating a bit into the area he | 0:24:23 | 0:24:29 | |
knows and loves, news? I think
anybody would have been surprised? | 0:24:29 | 0:24:34 | |
Months ago to think Rupert Murdoch
was going to be a seller. He spent | 0:24:34 | 0:24:37 | |
decades building this empire. It
does seem to be a bit of a retreat | 0:24:37 | 0:24:43 | |
to his origins in the news and in
sports here. It is not going to be | 0:24:43 | 0:24:46 | |
the sprawling empire that Fox is
today. Is this an era semiretirement | 0:24:46 | 0:24:55 | |
for Rupert Murdoch? I don't think it
is retirement of any kind. He is | 0:24:55 | 0:25:04 | |
retreating to news. But I don't
think that is the right word. I | 0:25:04 | 0:25:07 | |
think this is about the next ten to
15 years. Apple is six, seven times, | 0:25:07 | 0:25:14 | |
well, four times the size of Fox and
Disney together. Amazon is $560 | 0:25:14 | 0:25:21 | |
billion. The West Coast companies in
the US and the Chinese will control | 0:25:21 | 0:25:28 | |
media in ten years' time. There
would be to Chinese giants, for US | 0:25:28 | 0:25:32 | |
giants. The only one that will
survive will be Disney now. | 0:25:32 | 0:25:37 | |
Basically it is just racing to get
big and be safe? I think he has | 0:25:37 | 0:25:43 | |
accepted he has not got the scale in
the digital world to be one of the | 0:25:43 | 0:25:47 | |
top one or two. Is that your view of
it in terms of the bigger picture of | 0:25:47 | 0:25:52 | |
the entertainment scene in the next
decade? I think that is absolutely | 0:25:52 | 0:25:57 | |
right. It is an acknowledgement that
Fox does not have the scale for the | 0:25:57 | 0:26:01 | |
future of entertainment. It is true,
we see these enormously disruptive | 0:26:01 | 0:26:05 | |
forces coming out of silicon valley,
are also changing the way that media | 0:26:05 | 0:26:10 | |
is produced and consumed. Who paying
for it, who is watching it? Over | 0:26:10 | 0:26:16 | |
here we think it quite a lot about
Sky. In the United States it is | 0:26:16 | 0:26:20 | |
probably not considered a huge
thing. What does this mean for Sky? | 0:26:20 | 0:26:26 | |
The Murdoch share will be in the
Disney empire. Murdoch wanted all of | 0:26:26 | 0:26:29 | |
it. We assume Disney will take it
all? Right, our understanding is one | 0:26:29 | 0:26:35 | |
where the other Disney World and up
morning Sky. Fox will continue to | 0:26:35 | 0:26:39 | |
buy the rest of the shares and
either they will get approved by | 0:26:39 | 0:26:43 | |
them, and then it will become part
of the Disney deal. If not, Disney | 0:26:43 | 0:26:47 | |
will take over that 39% stake they
own now and make its own bid to on | 0:26:47 | 0:26:52 | |
the rest of it. One way or the
other, Skye goes to Disney. It does | 0:26:52 | 0:26:57 | |
not have resonance in the US. But we
do recognise that for Disney it is a | 0:26:57 | 0:27:04 | |
big distribution platform for them
in Europe for their content. Very | 0:27:04 | 0:27:07 | |
important for future strategy. Sky
News, a lot of people say Sky News | 0:27:07 | 0:27:14 | |
loses money, and the best way to run
a news organisation is to have a | 0:27:14 | 0:27:20 | |
billionaire behind you loves news.
Will Disney be interested in Sky | 0:27:20 | 0:27:23 | |
News? People don't realise that
Disney is an incredibly big provider | 0:27:23 | 0:27:28 | |
of news in the US. It owns ABC and
has done for 20 years. ABC is one of | 0:27:28 | 0:27:34 | |
the big three original networks. The
irony is the CMA have the government | 0:27:34 | 0:27:39 | |
are looking at variety. The fact is
Rupert Murdoch created Sky. He | 0:27:39 | 0:27:47 | |
created so many of these assets
which authorities around the world | 0:27:47 | 0:27:50 | |
are looking at. Without him it
wouldn't exist. Now Sky will be | 0:27:50 | 0:27:55 | |
owned by a US media giant but not
Fox. There is a huge irony there. I | 0:27:55 | 0:27:59 | |
would say to Anna Bolton and my
friends at Sky, they will be fine. | 0:27:59 | 0:28:05 | |
-- Adam Boulton. Our big American
media empires interested in having | 0:28:05 | 0:28:12 | |
news channels as loss leaders to
give them prestige and a life | 0:28:12 | 0:28:15 | |
present in the world? I think it is
absolutely significant for them. | 0:28:15 | 0:28:21 | |
Also, you can't discount the viewing
they are getting from these | 0:28:21 | 0:28:24 | |
channels. We are all obsessed with
screaming, we are all talking about | 0:28:24 | 0:28:29 | |
disruption. But people are still
watching the news and sport live. | 0:28:29 | 0:28:32 | |
Those are areas in which the
so-called linear television system | 0:28:32 | 0:28:37 | |
is going to be strong for a while
yet. There are still millions of | 0:28:37 | 0:28:41 | |
people who want to tune in to see
these things as they happen. Thank | 0:28:41 | 0:28:44 | |
you both. | 0:28:44 | 0:28:45 | |
When the Grenfell fire
happened six months ago, | 0:28:45 | 0:28:47 | |
we quickly realised that something
had gone wrong with the building | 0:28:47 | 0:28:51 | |
regulations, or at least the way
they were implemented. | 0:28:51 | 0:28:53 | |
The result in that case
was a tragedy that has prompted | 0:28:53 | 0:28:56 | |
a complete review of fire safety
in tall buildings. | 0:28:56 | 0:28:58 | |
Well, tonight we can bring
you details of another area | 0:28:58 | 0:29:00 | |
of fire safety regulation,
which some believe needs examining - | 0:29:00 | 0:29:04 | |
it is that which purports to prevent
furniture from burning. | 0:29:04 | 0:29:08 | |
Now, the rules governing furniture
in this country are tough, | 0:29:08 | 0:29:10 | |
which you might assume is a good
thing in the wake of Grenfell. | 0:29:10 | 0:29:14 | |
This special report on the problem,
and how we got here, | 0:29:14 | 0:29:17 | |
is from our policy
editor, Chris Cook. | 0:29:17 | 0:29:18 | |
There is one area where Britain has
usually thought of itself as having | 0:29:18 | 0:29:21 | |
the toughest safety regulations
on earth, furniture. | 0:29:21 | 0:29:27 | |
We subject it to harder tests
than anyone else to try to make it | 0:29:27 | 0:29:31 | |
as fireproof as possible
for good reason. | 0:29:31 | 0:29:39 | |
For example, a sofa can be
a massive fire hazard. | 0:29:39 | 0:29:44 | |
But questions have arisen
about the safety of the rules we use | 0:29:44 | 0:29:47 | |
to contain this risk. | 0:29:47 | 0:29:51 | |
The civil servant who was
until recently in charge | 0:29:51 | 0:29:54 | |
of reviewing these regulations has
had a change of heart | 0:29:54 | 0:29:57 | |
about their wisdom since he got
involved in this field | 0:29:57 | 0:30:00 | |
in the mid-2000s. | 0:30:00 | 0:30:03 | |
I would have said these are the most
stringent fire safety, | 0:30:03 | 0:30:06 | |
domestic arrangements in the world. | 0:30:06 | 0:30:09 | |
They are a great success
and they are saving lives | 0:30:09 | 0:30:11 | |
and the rest of the world should
really come up to the same | 0:30:11 | 0:30:15 | |
level of requirements
that we have in the UK. | 0:30:15 | 0:30:17 | |
But you absolutely
don't believe that now? | 0:30:17 | 0:30:18 | |
I absolutely don't believe that now. | 0:30:18 | 0:30:22 | |
In Britain furniture fabric has
to pass very tough tests, | 0:30:22 | 0:30:26 | |
uniquely tough in the world,
before you are allowed to sell | 0:30:26 | 0:30:31 | |
it on the open market. | 0:30:31 | 0:30:33 | |
Manufacturers, though,
have worked out that the easiest way | 0:30:33 | 0:30:36 | |
to get through those tests is simply
to load the fabric with | 0:30:36 | 0:30:39 | |
chemical flame retardants. | 0:30:39 | 0:30:44 | |
The Grenfell Tower fire
is an apt moment to consider | 0:30:44 | 0:30:48 | |
the wisdom of this approach. | 0:30:48 | 0:30:50 | |
Within the Tower the fire obviously
moved through the building very | 0:30:50 | 0:30:52 | |
rapidly and people reported noxious
black smoke filling the interior. | 0:30:52 | 0:30:59 | |
rapidly and people reported noxious,
black smoke filling the interior. | 0:30:59 | 0:31:02 | |
A dozen residents were treated
afterwards for cyanide poisoning, | 0:31:02 | 0:31:04 | |
including a 12-year-old member
of the Gomez family. | 0:31:04 | 0:31:06 | |
The smoke was certainly
so intense that as soon | 0:31:06 | 0:31:09 | |
as you took a mouthful of air,
or in this case smoke, | 0:31:09 | 0:31:13 | |
you were gagging. | 0:31:13 | 0:31:23 | |
Smoke is always bad for you,
it can always kill you. | 0:31:24 | 0:31:27 | |
But the thing is, the commonest fire
retardants in use in UK | 0:31:27 | 0:31:30 | |
furniture work by interfering
with the chemistry of the flame | 0:31:30 | 0:31:32 | |
and a by-product of their use
is that when a fire gets going, | 0:31:32 | 0:31:35 | |
the smoke is more toxic. | 0:31:35 | 0:31:41 | |
A new peer-reviewed paper
in the journal Chemisphere suggests | 0:31:41 | 0:31:43 | |
they make it much more toxic. | 0:31:43 | 0:31:46 | |
The first thing we found
was that the sofas burnt at almost | 0:31:46 | 0:31:49 | |
the same kind of rate. | 0:31:49 | 0:31:51 | |
You did not get a particular
slowing down comparing | 0:31:51 | 0:31:53 | |
the non-flame retardant sofas
with the flame retardant ones. | 0:31:53 | 0:31:56 | |
The second thing is we got
between two and three times more | 0:31:56 | 0:31:59 | |
toxicity in the smoke from the UK
fire retardant sofas | 0:31:59 | 0:32:03 | |
and we did from the European
non-fire retardant sofas. | 0:32:03 | 0:32:09 | |
than we did from the European
non-fire retardant sofas. | 0:32:09 | 0:32:11 | |
More toxicity means more carbon
monoxide and hydrogen | 0:32:11 | 0:32:14 | |
cyanide in the smoke. | 0:32:14 | 0:32:18 | |
But the chemical companies point
to their own research saying UK | 0:32:18 | 0:32:21 | |
sofas clearly do better at resisting
fires than other European sofas | 0:32:21 | 0:32:24 | |
when they are first ignited,
and advocates of flame retardants | 0:32:24 | 0:32:28 | |
note that even if it makes mature
fires more dangerous, preventing | 0:32:28 | 0:32:32 | |
fires is the only smart strategy. | 0:32:32 | 0:32:35 | |
The best way to deal with toxicity
of smoke is to begin | 0:32:35 | 0:32:38 | |
with not to have a fire. | 0:32:38 | 0:32:40 | |
Not only do we benefit from not
having the toxic smoke, | 0:32:40 | 0:32:43 | |
but you will benefit from not having
the flames spread, you will benefit | 0:32:43 | 0:32:47 | |
from not having the structure
being put into structural danger, | 0:32:47 | 0:32:49 | |
you will have no problem of the fire
struggling to different compartments | 0:32:49 | 0:32:58 | |
you will have no problem of the fire
travelling to different compartments | 0:32:58 | 0:33:01 | |
and finding different fuels. | 0:33:01 | 0:33:02 | |
This is, however, not the first wave
of unrest about retardants. | 0:33:02 | 0:33:04 | |
So the flame retardants
are what are called semi-volatile, | 0:33:04 | 0:33:06 | |
that means they are coming out
always from the couch, | 0:33:06 | 0:33:09 | |
you don't have to sit on it,
they are always coming out, | 0:33:09 | 0:33:12 | |
and they are heavy,
they drop into dust. | 0:33:12 | 0:33:14 | |
You get dust on your hands
and you eat a sandwich | 0:33:14 | 0:33:16 | |
and you are eating flame retardant. | 0:33:16 | 0:33:19 | |
Our own government just last year
noted flame retardant chemicals, | 0:33:19 | 0:33:21 | |
particularly brominated flame
retardants, can be harmful | 0:33:21 | 0:33:23 | |
to human and animal health. | 0:33:23 | 0:33:28 | |
There is a big question though
about whether these regulations | 0:33:28 | 0:33:31 | |
are actually preventing fires. | 0:33:31 | 0:33:34 | |
For example, they don't really take
account of the fact that in a sofa | 0:33:34 | 0:33:38 | |
arm you might have a load
of flammable Hessian or wood or even | 0:33:38 | 0:33:41 | |
cardboard just under the surface. | 0:33:41 | 0:33:44 | |
Professor Ryan does not support
reducing flame retardant use, | 0:33:44 | 0:33:46 | |
but also acknowledges
the statistical difficulty | 0:33:46 | 0:33:50 | |
in proving their effectiveness. | 0:33:50 | 0:33:53 | |
When you look into medicine, for
example, I envy them tremendously. | 0:33:53 | 0:33:55 | |
They do meta analysis,
which is an analysis | 0:33:55 | 0:33:57 | |
of the reviews of the reviews. | 0:33:57 | 0:33:59 | |
In fire science we cannot
do meta analysis. | 0:33:59 | 0:34:02 | |
We have like three studies
per topic instead of 3000, | 0:34:02 | 0:34:06 | |
which is the level of the studies
that you will require to actually | 0:34:06 | 0:34:09 | |
inform the politicians. | 0:34:09 | 0:34:13 | |
So we operate in this area
slightly in the dark. | 0:34:13 | 0:34:16 | |
People from competing disciplines
give different answers | 0:34:16 | 0:34:18 | |
to the same questions. | 0:34:18 | 0:34:21 | |
It is a complex public policy issue. | 0:34:21 | 0:34:24 | |
So how did we end up
with these rules? | 0:34:24 | 0:34:27 | |
The story of our fire regulation
really starts in the 1980s | 0:34:27 | 0:34:30 | |
when there was real disquiet
about fire deaths. | 0:34:30 | 0:34:34 | |
In part because we used horrifyingly
flammable foam padding in furniture, | 0:34:34 | 0:34:37 | |
which is now just banned,
and more people smoked. | 0:34:37 | 0:34:43 | |
I am warning this room
could be a burnt out shell | 0:34:43 | 0:34:46 | |
because of the burning
cigarette someone forgot. | 0:34:46 | 0:34:50 | |
This man is Bob Graham,
then a Manchester firefighter, | 0:34:50 | 0:34:53 | |
speaking in 1985 on Newsnight. | 0:34:53 | 0:34:56 | |
We were running a feature on how
many fires were then | 0:34:56 | 0:34:59 | |
being caused by cigarettes. | 0:34:59 | 0:35:00 | |
We have got a situation
where we have the smallest emission | 0:35:00 | 0:35:03 | |
source in the home being responsible
for the largest | 0:35:03 | 0:35:06 | |
proportion of deaths. | 0:35:06 | 0:35:10 | |
At that time Assistant Chief Fire
Officer Graham wanted cigarette | 0:35:10 | 0:35:13 | |
companies to roll out self
extinguishing cigarettes | 0:35:13 | 0:35:15 | |
to cut down on fires. | 0:35:15 | 0:35:18 | |
Not a universally
popular view in 1985. | 0:35:18 | 0:35:22 | |
Here at the headquarters
of the Tobacco Advisory Council | 0:35:22 | 0:35:24 | |
repeated requests for a spokesman
to discuss self distinguishing | 0:35:24 | 0:35:34 | |
repeated requests for a spokesman
to discuss self extinguishing | 0:35:34 | 0:35:36 | |
cigarettes have been met
with polite refusals. | 0:35:36 | 0:35:38 | |
The tobacco companies may not have
been talking to Newsnight, but we do | 0:35:38 | 0:35:41 | |
know that they were watching. | 0:35:41 | 0:35:43 | |
Newsnight has dug up legal
disclosures from the US | 0:35:43 | 0:35:45 | |
which show just how concerned
they were about our reports. | 0:35:45 | 0:35:53 | |
One of them notes that
their inability to put forward | 0:35:53 | 0:35:56 | |
a defensible PR stance on these
issues had been amply demonstrated | 0:35:56 | 0:35:58 | |
by TV comments in July 1985. | 0:35:58 | 0:36:00 | |
That is when that
Newsnight report went out. | 0:36:00 | 0:36:02 | |
They needed to find a way to get
people to talk about fires | 0:36:02 | 0:36:05 | |
as being caused by furniture,
not by cigarettes. | 0:36:05 | 0:36:07 | |
From these documents we know that
tobacco companies contributed | 0:36:07 | 0:36:10 | |
to the development of flame
retardants for furniture. | 0:36:10 | 0:36:12 | |
In Britain, big tobacco set
up a special fire safe | 0:36:12 | 0:36:15 | |
cigarette working group. | 0:36:15 | 0:36:18 | |
This press conference,
called by a West Midlands Fire chief | 0:36:18 | 0:36:22 | |
in 1988, was enormously helpful. | 0:36:22 | 0:36:25 | |
It was critical in forcing
the debate from cigarettes | 0:36:25 | 0:36:28 | |
and onto furniture. | 0:36:28 | 0:36:30 | |
And the documents show
converting firefighters | 0:36:30 | 0:36:32 | |
to their cause was a key plank
of big tobacco's policy. | 0:36:32 | 0:36:37 | |
Now thanks to those court
disclosures, we now know | 0:36:37 | 0:36:40 | |
that the tobacco companies had
actually been working on Mr Graham, | 0:36:40 | 0:36:43 | |
and another firefighter
who was on that podium. | 0:36:43 | 0:36:46 | |
You see, the documents
are pretty clear. | 0:36:46 | 0:36:48 | |
The tobacco companies thought
they had no credibility | 0:36:48 | 0:36:51 | |
to talk about fire safety,
and they needed a protective | 0:36:51 | 0:36:53 | |
ring of firefighters
who could do it for them. | 0:36:53 | 0:36:58 | |
So they said Mr Graham could be one
of their so-called spark plugs, | 0:36:58 | 0:37:02 | |
people who could move
the debate their way. | 0:37:02 | 0:37:04 | |
So they met him, they engaged
with him and sought to make him see | 0:37:04 | 0:37:07 | |
furniture rather than cigarettes
as the problem. | 0:37:07 | 0:37:10 | |
And we know that pretty soon he
changed his mind in that direction. | 0:37:10 | 0:37:14 | |
We asked Mr Graham whether he knew
back in the 1980s, that he was being | 0:37:14 | 0:37:18 | |
targeted by tobacco lobbyists. | 0:37:18 | 0:37:21 | |
I didn't know that. | 0:37:21 | 0:37:25 | |
They saw you and your support
for the self-extinguishing cigarette | 0:37:25 | 0:37:29 | |
as a thing we had to deal with. | 0:37:29 | 0:37:33 | |
Yeah. | 0:37:33 | 0:37:35 | |
I was in the fire service. | 0:37:35 | 0:37:36 | |
You wouldn't be allowed
to do anything like that. | 0:37:36 | 0:37:39 | |
You know, you couldn't deal with any
businesses, whatever they were. | 0:37:39 | 0:37:43 | |
But I never heard from them. | 0:37:43 | 0:37:45 | |
Not that I can remember anyway. | 0:37:45 | 0:37:47 | |
So you weren't aware at any point
of the tobacco industry sort of... | 0:37:47 | 0:37:51 | |
No, I wasn't. | 0:37:51 | 0:37:54 | |
That's all new to me. | 0:37:54 | 0:37:57 | |
Mr Graham said he just
changed his mind in favour | 0:37:57 | 0:37:59 | |
of furniture regulation. | 0:37:59 | 0:38:00 | |
He wasn't alone. | 0:38:00 | 0:38:01 | |
In 1988, the government
was persuaded. | 0:38:01 | 0:38:04 | |
Britain banned a lot of flammable
furniture and brought | 0:38:04 | 0:38:07 | |
in the current tests. | 0:38:07 | 0:38:08 | |
The response from big tobacco? | 0:38:08 | 0:38:09 | |
Job done. | 0:38:09 | 0:38:12 | |
There memos referred to the group
on fire safe cigarettes, | 0:38:12 | 0:38:15 | |
self-extinguishing. | 0:38:15 | 0:38:25 | |
That though was not
the end of the lobbying. | 0:38:25 | 0:38:27 | |
The chemical companies who make
retardants became bigger players. | 0:38:27 | 0:38:30 | |
The alliance for consumer fire
safety in Europe aggressively | 0:38:30 | 0:38:32 | |
lobbied to extend our rules
to other EU countries. | 0:38:32 | 0:38:34 | |
They had the same strategy -
get a firefighter. | 0:38:34 | 0:38:36 | |
I'd been retired about five years. | 0:38:36 | 0:38:38 | |
And then they asked for a meeting. | 0:38:38 | 0:38:39 | |
I met them. | 0:38:39 | 0:38:43 | |
They said, "We'd like you to raise
fire awareness in Europe." | 0:38:43 | 0:38:46 | |
And I said, "OK, but I do it my way. | 0:38:46 | 0:38:49 | |
I'm not being influenced by anyone." | 0:38:49 | 0:38:52 | |
And they were funded
by the fire retardant company? | 0:38:52 | 0:38:56 | |
Yes, by a committee of all the flame
retardant manufacturers in Europe, | 0:38:56 | 0:39:00 | |
which is halogenated,
phosphorus and all those | 0:39:00 | 0:39:04 | |
kind, I understand. | 0:39:04 | 0:39:08 | |
And at one time I think smoke
alarm people as well. | 0:39:08 | 0:39:11 | |
OK. | 0:39:11 | 0:39:13 | |
And the... | 0:39:13 | 0:39:15 | |
So from its birth, the alliance
was really founded by the fire flame | 0:39:15 | 0:39:20 | |
retardant companies,
with you as executive front men? | 0:39:20 | 0:39:26 | |
retardant companies,
with you as executive front man? | 0:39:26 | 0:39:28 | |
I guess. | 0:39:28 | 0:39:29 | |
Yeah. | 0:39:29 | 0:39:30 | |
Yeah. | 0:39:30 | 0:39:31 | |
It would be silly to say no to that. | 0:39:31 | 0:39:36 | |
Mr Graham stressed that the alliance
did not advocate for retardants | 0:39:36 | 0:39:39 | |
in particular, although chemical
companies would tend | 0:39:39 | 0:39:40 | |
to benefit from the tough fire
safety rules he wanted. | 0:39:40 | 0:39:43 | |
But they're not the only lobby. | 0:39:43 | 0:39:44 | |
Back in 2014, the Business
Department proposed changing | 0:39:44 | 0:39:46 | |
the test, to make it more sensitive
to how modern furniture | 0:39:46 | 0:39:49 | |
is actually made. | 0:39:49 | 0:39:50 | |
It doesn't represent the way that
furniture is constructed, | 0:39:50 | 0:39:52 | |
and it doesn't take into account
the many flammable materials you can | 0:39:52 | 0:39:55 | |
get close to the surface
in the arms and so forth. | 0:39:55 | 0:39:59 | |
You could never bring
that test in now. | 0:39:59 | 0:40:03 | |
The proposed test reforms would mean
regulation and materials not | 0:40:03 | 0:40:05 | |
currently covered by the rules,
but would also mean an overall | 0:40:05 | 0:40:08 | |
reduction in flame retardant use. | 0:40:08 | 0:40:11 | |
So he was expecting the chemical
industry to resist. | 0:40:11 | 0:40:14 | |
Another industry though
was mobilised by the changes. | 0:40:14 | 0:40:17 | |
The furniture industry really
likes these regulations, | 0:40:17 | 0:40:22 | |
because they are a barrier to trade. | 0:40:22 | 0:40:25 | |
Because it gives them a huge
advantage in the home market. | 0:40:25 | 0:40:30 | |
Because if you are a German
manufacturer and you want some | 0:40:30 | 0:40:37 | |
Because if you are a German
manufacturer and you want to sell | 0:40:37 | 0:40:40 | |
furniture into the UK,
you've got to create | 0:40:40 | 0:40:42 | |
a separate range that complies
with our regulations. | 0:40:42 | 0:40:44 | |
A furniture industry body said
they thought our rules | 0:40:44 | 0:40:53 | |
needed a full update,
but oposed the reforms | 0:40:53 | 0:40:55 | |
because they thought they wouldn't
meet government objectives. | 0:40:55 | 0:40:57 | |
The government believes these
regulations do need reform, | 0:40:57 | 0:40:59 | |
but we don't spend much on research
to balance the competing concerns | 0:40:59 | 0:41:02 | |
about effectiveness and toxicity. | 0:41:02 | 0:41:06 | |
Some ministers sought
consensus on what would work. | 0:41:06 | 0:41:08 | |
But that collapsed in part
because there is so much money | 0:41:08 | 0:41:11 | |
riding on opposing change. | 0:41:11 | 0:41:12 | |
Do you think that we make foreign
safety policy on a scientific basis? | 0:41:12 | 0:41:15 | |
Not at the moment, no. | 0:41:15 | 0:41:18 | |
I've been involved with committees
that set regulations | 0:41:18 | 0:41:19 | |
and address regulation changes. | 0:41:19 | 0:41:22 | |
And I can tell you that I'm
surprised how little the role | 0:41:22 | 0:41:25 | |
of science has in these committees. | 0:41:25 | 0:41:28 | |
The standards process in the UK
is dominated by people who can | 0:41:28 | 0:41:33 | |
afford to attend the meetings,
and those are usually people | 0:41:33 | 0:41:36 | |
with a vested interest
in a particular outcome. | 0:41:36 | 0:41:39 | |
All lobbying is funded
by the industry. | 0:41:39 | 0:41:43 | |
All the resistance to
improvements in standards | 0:41:43 | 0:41:46 | |
comes from the industry. | 0:41:46 | 0:41:49 | |
And there is either money to be made
or money to be lost. | 0:41:49 | 0:41:52 | |
This is not ancient history. | 0:41:52 | 0:41:55 | |
The government consulted once again
last year on changes that | 0:41:55 | 0:41:58 | |
would reduce the flame retardant
load in our furniture. | 0:41:58 | 0:42:00 | |
We don't know what they'll do,
but we do know they faced organise | 0:42:00 | 0:42:04 | |
opposition from industry. | 0:42:04 | 0:42:06 | |
Also, in the wake of the disaster
in Kensington, and with relatively | 0:42:06 | 0:42:09 | |
little large-scale research to rely
on, ministers may find it | 0:42:09 | 0:42:12 | |
easiest to hope this
concern burns itself out. | 0:42:12 | 0:42:22 | |
That's all for this evening. | 0:42:23 | 0:42:27 | |
Before we go, the Daily Mail
describes those Tory rebels as self | 0:42:27 | 0:42:33 | |
consumed malcontents. It asks, are
you proud of yourselves? From me, | 0:42:33 | 0:42:38 | |
good night. | 0:42:38 | 0:42:41 |