18/12/2017 Newsnight

Is this the man to stop

the rot in South Africa?

Cyril Ramaphosa is elected

the new president of the ANC.

He's not president of the country

yet, but getting to lead the country

is now the least of his problems,

because upon him rest

the hopes of a nation,

that he can outlaw corruption.

We'll hear from the ANC,

and from Nelson

Mandela's former personal aide.

We'll look back at Jeremy Corbyn's

rollercoaster year...

And ask the Shadow Home Secretary

where Labour may go in 2018.

The people complaining we're not far

enough ahead are the same people

who said the Labour Party would be

annihilated under

the current leadership.

There's a new Bishop of London -

the Church's third

most senior figure -

and she's Sarah Mullally.

There's not been much of a fuss.

Does it mean the Church

of England has moved

on from its arguments about women?

And Twitter launched a crackdown

on far right accounts today.

After a tumultuous year for some

in the Muslim community,

we'll ask former Conservative chair

Baroness Warsi whether enough

is being done to prevent

Islamophobic abuse.

Hello.

South Africa does not

have a new president tonight,

not even a new president elect,

but it does have a new

president-expect.

He is the newly declared leader

of the ANC, Cyril Ramaphosa.

In principle, the incumbent

President Zuma stays in office

until elections in 2019 and then

at that point, Mr Rampahosa probably

wins the presidency,

as the ANC candidate generally does.

But Zuma could be dumped

by his party sooner than that.

And so on Mr Ramaphosa's shoulders

rest the hopes of those who think

South Africa needs a clean-up.

It has slipped into bad habits under

Zuma, who famously spent state money

on a private swimming pool,

for example, and then justified it

as part of the fire safety system.

Mr Ramaphosa can afford his own pool

- he's a very rich man who's had

a successful business career,

and has now made the fight

against corruption a key platform.

He was also a stalwart

of the anti-apartheid struggle.

So is it likely he can

make a big difference?

Here's Mark Urban.

Comrades Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma

received two to 61 votes and

comrades civil manner poster

received 2444 votes.

With its

comrades, the ANC's proceedings, for

example announcing the leadership

results are a reminder of its

revolutionary heritage. It is a

powerful movement with millions of

members and a century of history and

it guards its power jealously.

It

looks like a new bus but it is an

old bus with a new driver and what

is wrong with South Africa is not

just two individuals but a systemic

process that has been endorsed by

the ANC and we need a complete

change from that. They might go for

an image makeover but in the long

term it will become clear that the

system of corruption as captain the

ANC also Soweto born Ramaphosa was a

trade unionist and leading member of

the ANC in the 90s but after losing

up to a presidential rival, he

turned his back on the party 20

years ago.

He set about amassing a

fortune in business. Tempting him

back it a coup for an ANC tainted in

recent years by corruption.

The ace

and yet has been very good at

maintaining what it calls a

Broadchurch -- the ANC. You have

someone like Cyril Ramaphosa who is

both a trade unionist but also a

very successful entrepreneur who is

supported by the labour movement and

supported by the Communist Party and

yet also crafted the seminal piece

of South African policy in the

National development plan.

But the

ANC phenomenon is part of a bigger

African liberation story. Angola was

one of the last African countries to

see off its colonisers. Its new rule

is celebrated in a distinctly

commonest manner.

Building up

popular enthusiasm for the aims of

the MPLa, that is the purpose of the

meeting and the movement is

determined to control the people at

the date of independence draws near.

This pattern of a party machine

being handed power and declining

thereafter to relinquish it has been

replicated across the continent. The

Marxist influence in many of the

African liberation movement is clear

in the flags of the independent

nations. From Zimbabwe's red start

to Angola's star, cog and the city

mirroring the Soviet hammer and

sickle, one theme, as with

Mozambique's AK-47 is to emphasise

the union between those who won

independence and those who will

build the new nation. The ANC flag

has that as well with its spear and

wheel but increasingly the

liberators and the liberated have

felt their interests diverged.

It's

not too dissimilar to that of any

national liberation movement. Most

national liberation movements like

we have seen with Zanu-PF in

Zimbabwe, they all begin with this

notion that they must capture the

leaders of power. What happened with

the ANC is they deployed a programme

where they send loyal people to

governing positions without the

necessary competence at times and

that corruption seeds in it becomes

part of the organisation and it Ms

manages the economy.

The Mugabe vision for Zimbabwe was

one of a 1-party state where Zanu-PF

would be the forum for political

debate. And as the recent coronation

of Emmerson Mnangagwa demonstrated,

the Zanu-PF machine intends to

define the post-Mugabe future. In

South Africa, the ANC has at least

been shrewd enough to pick a man

from outside the party machine in an

attempt to refresh its brand after

the Zuma years.

What we will seek

right across southern Africa in the

next ten years is that change you

are alluding to about bringing in

younger people to power and the

continued decline of national

liberation movement who have been

unable to deliver on the growing

expectations of younger populations.

Manner poster may be able to revive

the ANC and reinvent the liberation

movement -- Ramaphosa. But equally

the party could consume him. The key

test will come in the 2019

elections.

So what next for South Africa?

Does the ANC's legacy

as a liberation movement mean

it can never be dislodged,

and if so, can it

reform from within?

I'm joined by Jabu Sibecko,

chairman of the ANC's

branch here in the UK,

and by Gillian Slovo.

Gillian is a South African writer

whose parents were some

of the most prominent

campaigners against apartheid.

Her mother, Ruth First,

was assassinated by the South

African security forces in 1982.

Her father, Joe Slovo,

led the ANC's armed wing and went

on to become a minister

in Nelson Mandela's government.

Also with us from Pretoria

is Zelda La Grange, who served

as personal aide to Mr Mandela

for almost 20 years.

Good evening to you. Does your party

need saving and is Ramaphosa the man

to do it?

Ramaphosa, yes, he's the

right man for the job. I think he

has over the years demonstrated, his

capacity to lead the party. And as a

former unionist there was a time

when he also was actually involved

in some of the negotiations, the

transitional arrangement between

apartheid. He has been there between

the organisation.

And does the party

need saving? He is obviously a big

figure and a grown-up so does the

party need an escape from someone

who has been running rather badly?

What I can say is that he has the

potential to resuscitate some of the

elements within the organisation

that have not actually... He's going

to reignite the spirit that should

exist within the ANC. I don't want

to say he is actually going to save

the party...

You don't want admit it

has gone off the rails! What do you

think? Is he the man and had it gone

off the rails?

If anybody is the man

then he is and yes, it has gone off

the rails. There is too much

corruption inside government in

South Africa. Zuma has presided over

corruption from the top to the

bottom and hopefully Cyril Ramaphosa

if the man who can change it and I

think the vote for him shows that

people in the ANC want that change

to come forth that there were some

other positions that did... He is

going to have much more difficult

job because his deputy resident is a

Zuma can edit and his general

secretary is a Zuma candidate, both

implicated in corruption themselves

in the various places they have

been. He will have a hard job to

both govern the country and turned

the ANC around.

Your party is pretty

divided it seems today between the

Zuma side and the Ramaphosa side.

There are divisions, yes, within the

party. That is the challenge that he

will be facing.

You feel they are

behind him enough to do it?

Behind

him sufficiently to ensure that the

unity prevails within the

organisation.

Zelda, you knew him

from his days as general secretary

under President Mandela. What was he

like, give us a sense of the man?

He

has the ability to instinctively

reinforce the values and the morals

and the pride within the ANC that we

spoke earlier. If there is one man

that can do it because of instincts

and his success at the negotiations,

one of the authors of our

Constitution which is considered one

of the most progressive in the

world, he has the credentials to

turn this into a success job.

Mandela did not give him the job of

vice president, he made Thabo Mbeki

error apparent and people asked what

he was going -- what was going on.

He was hand-picked actually by Mr

Mandela to deputise for him but the

ANC is an organisation full of

culture and the collective is very

important. At a meeting Mr Mandela

was convinced by people, by the

elders in the organisation and by

his colleagues, that Thabo Becky was

better positioned at that point to

take over the deputy presidency --

Thabo Mbeki.

No body can speak for

the late Nelson Mandela but what do

you think he would think as he looks

at what Zuma has done, effectively

to trash the reputation of the party

with the public?

I think he would

have been disappointed, not only in

one person or one thing but overall,

the level of corruption. As South

Africans we have almost managed to

institutionalised corruption, not

only in the government and the ANC

but in the private sector and he

would have been disappointed because

South Africans need to take

responsibility for who we are as a

nation. Although the example he set

from the top, we need to be active

citizens and help to rebuild the

country.

Thank you. Does Ramaphosa,

firstly how quickly it should they

make this transfer of power? Should

they just boot out Zuma?

I think it

would be good myself.

Does that need

to be a reckoning, does he need to

face charges?

There are charges

pending against him and some have

thought about why he wanted

Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma to take over

because the suggestion was that she

would not press the charges as hard

but I think Cyril Ramaphosa is going

to have his job cut out for him to

rule the country. He may not go for

that first but the good thing about

South Africa is that the courts

work, become seducing works and the

courts work and those charges will

go through the courts. -- with the

Constitution works.

The problem is

that there is a monopoly party that

went every election. Would you

agreed as a member that it would be

healthier for your democracy to have

a 2-party system with other parties

that could win?

I think the gun

seducing of South Africa provides

for it, -- the Constitution of South

Africa. It is the will of the people

to elect whoever they wish in

government but at this stage I think

that the ANC, from its history as a

liberation movement, it has

instilled sufficient confidence in

South Africans to continue to

believe that the ANC will bring

about the necessary change that is

needed in the country.

I don't think it is the ANC's. There

is a stronger opposition. If they

wanted a stronger opposition, they

could vote for them.

Would you vote

for them?

I would vote for them now

but I would have hesitated to vote

for a Jacob Zuma ANC but I wouldn't

have voted for any of the opposition

either.

Thank you very much.

2017 was the weirdest year, ooh,

since at least 2016.

And no more so than

for Jeremy Corbyn.

He started the election campaign

treated as something of a joke.

He had no chance, it was said,

and was more proof that Britain

would never sign up to that kind

of lefty programme.

And then something changed.

The pundits said that Theresa May

bungled her manifesto,

and her social care package

went down badly.

But when you look at how the polls

changed, it was not so much that

old people deserted her at all.

What changed was that young

people swarmed to Labour

and Jeremy Corbyn in particular.

So is a left wing

platform a winner now?

Well, as the year ends,

there are two views -

that he is now a credible

prime minister in waiting,

who will probably win the next

election, or that he should be doing

much better given the way

the Tories are doing.

Let's have a look

back now at his year.

MUSIC: 'Seven Nation Army'

by The White Stripes.

So how did he go from this...

To this?

What happened with the general

election, we had an opportunity

for 600,000 people to get involved

and use their voice to persuade

people and have genuine

conversations about politics

and that's what people did.

It wasn't just a fiction

of the mainstream media

that Corbyn was a loser.

When it came to the local elections

in England, he was a loser.

A very bad night for Labour.

Thank you so much for coming.

His party was unsure about him, too.

No one can ignore the

issue of leadership.

I mean, it would be fatuous to do

so and I don't think anyone, I hope,

is suggesting that it wasn't

an issue on the doorstep.

All in all, this could have

been his annus horribilis.

But in the election campaign,

something shifted.

One sign was that he was out

and about in all the wrong places,

seats that were never meant to go

Labour.

Did he not understand

that's a waste of his time?

Well, in the end,

many of them did swing his way.

I hereby declare that Emma Dent Coad

has been duly elected

as the Member of Parliament

for the Kensington constituency.

In 2017, Jeremy Corbyn

basically rewrote the rules,

refreshing the voters that other

politicians couldn't reach.

He would not welcome the comparison

but in a way you could say

he pulled off a Trump,

an authentic political

outsider promising change,

never hides his beliefs,

always says what he thinks, performs

well against an establishment

insider whose message often doesn't

come across as quite genuine.

But Mr Corbyn did something

else in the election.

He made some generous,

almost populist policy promises that

appealed to key groups.

Labour will end the cuts

in the National Health Service.

Labour will scrap tuition fees.

Labour will take our railways back

into public ownership

and put passengers first.

Austerity-fatigued voters seemed

happy to be told the good news,

even if mainstream experts thought

it might be more

difficult than presented.

Corbyn's team are presenting some

things as simple which almost

certainly are not going to be.

One of them is a great

increase in public spending

which they want to do.

Now, that is very simple and might

indeed fairly simply lead

to an improvement in some public

services and some areas

of health or education,

if the fact that national debt

would go up as a result did not

bring its own complications, too.

So how do we explain

Mr Corbyn's appeal?

Is it the policies?

The direction?

Or the man?

I think Jeremy's great.

He's kind of a nice,

honest human who talks to people

at a genuine level and understands

where people are coming from

but it's not about Jeremy Corbyn.

It is about the politics

and policies.

I'll be back very soon.

We can find evidence on one question

- whether it's possible to argue

that Britain has taken a decisive

move to the left.

Surveys just after the 2015 and 2017

elections asked people to place

themselves on a ten-point scale

where left is zero and right is ten.

The average position only

moved from 5.1 to 5.0.

We're hardly all Corbynites now.

I don't think that the

centre has shifted.

I think the electorate itself has

changed shape a little bit

and of course one of the shocks

from the election was that

so many more young people,

young people who hadn't previously

bothered to vote,

turned out to vote.

Well, for 2018, the big

question in British politics

is whether the Corbyn

surge can continue.

As he gathers more support,

does he look more credible and thus

gather more support?

Or has he reached the

limits of his appeal?

It's really hard to see how either

party can win an overall majority

against this backdrop

because I think you've got half

the electorate basically rejecting

Labour and what it stands

for and the other half

rejecting the Tories.

And so it's Marmite

politics at the moment?

It's completely

Marmite politics, yes.

Of course Mr Corbyn has

surprised us this year.

We've seen him perform in ways that

mainstream pundits did not expect.

Is 2018 the year that the next great

once unthinkable political

earthquake occurs that sees

a Prime Minister Corbyn

enter Number 10?

Showtime.

Let's go.

Well, I met up earlier

to discuss this with

the Shadow Home Secretary,

Diane Abbott.

I asked her what critics

of Jeremy Corbyn, who'd written him

off earlier in the year,

had got wrong about him.

The thing that commentators got

wrong

is they existed in a bubble.

They were talking to other MPs.

They weren't talking to real people.

And when the election was actually

launched for the first time,

because of electoral coverage rules,

Jeremy got much more

balanced coverage in terms

of the time, for the first time,

they actually heard about our

manifesto which proved

to be very popular but the other

important thing was this,

we were really effective

in using social media to get around

what the mainstream

media was saying.

And the stats show that people

who get most of their political

information from online and social

media, mostly young people, in fact,

were far more likely to vote for us.

What you think about

authenticity in politics?

Some people have said

there was something about Corbyn,

he looked more comfortable

in his own skin than Theresa May

did in the election?

Is it fair to say that the old

techniques of communication

have proved to be a bit futile and,

basically, you have to be yourself.

Maybe Donald Trump proves

the same point, I don't know?

Well, it would be ludicrous

to compare Jeremy with Donald Trump.

Donald Trump appeals to the direct

opposite group of people

and Donald Trump appeals to fear

and Jeremy appeals to hope.

But it is true that Jeremy

is comfortable in himself,

he knows what he believes -

he didn't have to read

a an opinion poll

to tell him what he believes.

That's why he won the leadership

of the Labour Party,

not once but twice,

and that's why he did so well in

the general election.

Interesting absence of evidence,

though, that Britain has

actually swung to the left.

Would you accept that it's not

the case that Jeremy Corbyn has,

if you like, made a left-leaning

argument to the British

people and persuaded them

that is the way to go?

Truth to tell, our manifesto was not

some extremist left manifesto.

Were we a Scandinavian country,

our manifesto would be seen

as a quite middle-of-the-road

social Democratic manifesto.

What is true, though,

is we've altered the debate.

You've got Tory MPs

talking about austerity,

complaining about austerity,

that never happened before.

You've got the Tory party

and looking at issues of student

finance.

On a range of issues we have

generally altered the debate.

Many people are saying that it's

bizarre the official opposition

is in most polls about one or two

points ahead of this government.

Are you thinking looking

at where labour is now,

this is great, were ahead in

the polls or are you thinking, yeah,

actually, it ought to be

15 or 20 points ahead,

given what the government's doing.

People complaining that we're not

far enough ahead are the same people

who are saying that the Labour Party

would be annihilated under

the current leadership.

I'm the person who, over a year ago

said that we would narrow the 20

points gap in the opinion polls

and I said we do it

within 12 months.

In fact, we did it

within six months.

I'm the person telling you,

that we're going to move

ahead of this government,

steadily and surely

as next year unfolds.

It has been a year of particularly

vituperative dialogue and anger

and you've suffered enormously under

that this year.

Have you ever felt like you want

to just jack it all in?

It's been difficult.

I think it's 45% of abusive tweets

sent to MPs came to me.

But not just difficult for me,

difficult for my staff who have

to open all the letters because it's

not just online,

it's letters and so on.

Do you read the stuff?

I don't read all of it.

My staff have to read it

all and my staff have to go online

and look at Twitter because that's

how we communicate with people.

And it's been horrible for them.

But I would say that I have had

a lot of support as well

from people in Hackney

who have been really lovely.

They could see I was under

terrible attack, not just online

but from mainstream media.

Everywhere I went they would stop me

and say, we think you're doing

a really good job, carry on.

And that was very positive.

I also got a lot of support

nationally, cards and letters.

So it was tough but I got support.

2018, what are your hopes

and fears for 2018 then?

We're going to move decisively

above the Tories in the opinion

polls, just as I said

we would eliminate the gap, we're

going to move decisively forward

and I'm confident about that.

And, you know, the Tories

are in a state.

The negotiations are shambles.

Last week they couldn't even get

the legislation through the House

of Commons so it may well be that

2018 will see a general election.

Diane Abbott,

thank you very much indeed.

We'll be looking at the

conservatives yet tomorrow.

The Church of England

appointed a new Bishop

of London today - the 133rd.

And she is the Right

Reverend Sarah Mullally.

She's not the first woman bishop,

but she is the first in that role,

she's now the most senior woman

in the Church,

and she is ranked number three

in the overall hierarchy there.

The Church of England has

a vision of the church

being at the heart

of every community, a church

that is confident in prayer,

a church that is confident speaking

about the Lord Jesus Christ.

You might have expected

that the more conservative segment

of the church might have been upset

at the appointment, given

their opposition to women bishops,

but there has been little publicly

expressed anger today.

So has the church managed

to navigate its way

through the tricky territory

that comes with balancing

the interest of liberal

modernity with the traditions

of the scripture?

Jayne Ozanne is a gay evangelical

who sits on the general synod

and campaigns for equal rights

for women and the LGBT community.

Rod Thomas is the Bishop

of Maidstone - he led the campaign

against the idea of women bishops

and works within a wing

of the church which lives

with but doesn't engage

with women bishops.

Very good evening to you both.

Jayne, you must be very pleased.

I'm

absolutely thrilled. It's a big day

for women in the Church who want to

serve. For Bishop Sarah to have the

third most senior role, it's a real

breakthrough when only 10% of our

bishops are female, particularly in

London where only one in ten of paid

posts are women. To have a woman in

such is the new position is a real

breakthrough for us.

Rod, this is

not what you would have wanted. How

would you describe your reaction?

I

have no issue of Sarah for two

years. I like her. She is very easy

to be with. People in London will

find her very easy to be with. She's

very gifted and has a lot to give. I

do want to say these things.

Relationships are important. Against

what you said in your introduction,

I don't stand aside from women

bishops, I try to be as involved as

I can in there by diseases. Of

course, her appointment raises

questions for conservative

evangelicals. They will be looking

for particular arrangements so they

can hold their theology with

integrity.

You are a flying bishop.

For those churches who don't like

the idea of a woman consecrating a

priest, you will go in and do that

for her. Effectively. Is that how

this compromise works?

It is largely

how it works but it is all under her

control quite frankly. She can

decide whether to give me permission

to do this or not. That is part of

the agreement that we reached in

2014. But she can't ignore the

desires of a parish to have

arrangements. That was part of the

deal. It has to be worked out in an

arrangement and that is what we are

doing.

Does this tortuous

accommodation work?

Bishop Sarah has

said that she wants to make it work

and if there is hope in London, it

is the rest. A lot of people think

that our ministry is tainted just

because we are a woman but Bishop

Sarah is keen to try and find a

compromise. I'm all for agreeing to

disagree but when we start to cause

harm and info to people that they

are less than that I start to worry

about what we are telling our young

people tomorrow.

If we accept that you have worked it

out and painfully negotiated it and

everybody is sticking to the deal,

is this nothing to the argument that

is about to occur on sexuality?

I

think there is a hope that we will

find the same way of agreeing to

disagree but I come back to the

point about harm. What harm are we

doing to those when we start saying

they are not valid, their sexuality

does not exist?

The issue is

different, it has to be said.

Whereas with women bishops we

decided as part of the negotiations

that it was not one that ought to

cause disunity, it should be one

week could agree to disagree, the

issue if sexuality is different

because the teaching in the Bible

seems to be so clear. And therefore

it becomes a primary, not a

secondary issue. Because it is a

primary issue it has the capacity to

split the church, I hope it does not

happen but it has done it in the

United States and it could

conceivably do it here.

What we are

hearing is that the Bible is not

clear on women and it is clear on

sexuality which is rubbish. There

are people who hold strong views on

both sides who take the Bible as the

mandate.

We are not going to

rehearse the argument now about the

plate in the Scripture but is

whether you can reach compromise but

what you're saying is that will not

happen?

What does not believe that I

can be Christian and gave -- Rod

does not believe I can be Christian

and gay.

Anybody can be a Christian

whatever their sexuality. The issue

is how they follow the Bible's

teaching as part of their

discipleship of Christ. As with all

of us, we all had to change in all

sorts of respects and in the case of

the expression of our sexuality, the

Bible's teaching has always been

that sexual intimacy was for

marriage between a man and a woman

and not otherwise.

The answer then

is that with purchasing homosexual

acts, you can be a proper Christian.

What I wanted Sikh is not that you

cannot be a proper Christian but as

part of their discipleship I would

want to encourage the joint

exploration of what the Bible says

and then it is up to the individual

conscience.

You started by saying

the Bible is clear when there are

many others who disagree that does

not allow for disagreement and use

it as a first order issue which

means I cannot be Christian and

practising gay and when you talk

about confirmation. When I try to

transform an evangelical to live

with a straight or single life I

ended up fighting for my life in

hospital twice and that is what I

mean about harm. The harm we do with

these teaching of the church is to

get to grips and understand it.

Might takeaway is that the sexuality

issue will be harder to reach a

settlement on than has been...

I

think we have more to lose in terms

of peoples lives.

Thank you much

indeed.

Tis the season of goodwill, and boy,

do we need one, you might say.

Ill-will seems to have been

the hallmark of public discourse.

We've spoken a bit about hate

in politics with Diane Abbott,

but relations between Muslims

and non-Muslims have potentially

been strained this year

with several terror attacks,

and the hardened attitudes

that sometimes follow.

Perhaps with community harmony

in mind, Twitter today chose

to suspend the accounts of the two

leaders of the far right

group Britain First -

it was one of them that was

retweeted by President Trump.

In a few moments, we'll

reflect on Islamophobia

in the UK with Sayeeda Warsi,

at what is the end

of a difficult 2017.

It's been yet another year that has

seen violence in the news.

Division between Muslims

and non-Muslims is a

theme that won't fade.

Some react by creating barriers,

others react by trying ever

harder to take them down.

In Parliament, the all-party

group on British Muslims

publishes its report tomorrow,

stressing the work of

Muslims who try to do good

beyond their own community itself.

Muslim charities that

are working over Christmas

to the benefit of all.

The group notes that this is not

the stuff of newspaper headlines

which too often focus

on the negative

rather than positive.

If that's a form of Islamophobia

or is that just to be

expected from the media went

to the attacks are occurring?

Baroness Warsi worries

that it is the former.

She's a prominent Conservative peer,

a Muslim, and a member

of the all-party group.

She said this year that

Islamophobia is Britain's

latest bigotry blindspot.

Does she think that a report

highlighting the good that Muslim

charities do here can change that?

Baroness Warsi is with me now.

Good evening to you. Do you think we

end the year with all the strains of

the attacks earlier, do you feel we

end the year in a worse or better

position in terms of a --

Islamophobia and attacks and in

general community relations?

What

we're trying to do is end the year

in a better position. It is the

season of goodwill and that was why

we felt at the all-party

Parliamentary group on British

Muslims that this was the right time

to release these findings from a

report that will be published in the

New Year called faith is the fourth

emergency service. One aspect was

this huge amount of volunteering

that was happening up and down the

country, British Muslims doing at

this time of Christmas.

And

crucially not just helping other

Muslims but Muslims working for the

community in general.

And what we

found when we heard the evidence was

that the majority of the work that

was being done around Christmas, the

donors and volunteers were

predominantly Muslim from the

charities we were speaking to but

the majority of the beneficiaries

were not and it was real interfaith

work. What we were trying to do in

the report and when we launched this

tomorrow is highlight that everybody

including Muslims will be working

towards hopefully a very Merry

Muslim Christmas!

You have not

answered my question, which is do

you think we end the year with

relations under strain? You might

have expected after their being four

attacks, you might expect that it

will get worse and worse. If it

hasn't, you might say that is a

result and we held it together.

This

has been an incredibly difficult

year not just with the attacks but

the many more that were thwarted and

the hate crime that followed each of

the attacks. It has been a difficult

year and also we have a man in the

White House who think it is OK and

acceptable to retweet far right

activists from the UK. He has

practically declared open season. We

have had that year where people in

the media have talked about the

Muslim problem, much to the horror

of many people who said it was

reminiscent of Nazi Germany. There

have been some real low points this

year which is why even more so what

parliamentarians are trying to do is

focus on the good.

Focus on the

positive. How about the Conservative

Party? Do you see much good news

there on this issue? You were part

of the modernising wing. Has that

all dripped away or do you think

Theresa May is continuing it?

I

think many of my colleagues and the

Prime Minister would accept this, if

you look at the support amongst

black and Asian minority ethnic

communities and specifically the

British Muslim community, it has

fallen since it high point of 2015

when it was in the 20s and it is now

back to about 17%. Not just in

British Muslim communities but a

real concern among conservatives

that we are beginning to fall back.

And what has the party done wrong?

What have you noticed that makes you

angry and makes you feel that you

are annoyed being a conservative to

see this?

First and foremost we have

all talked about Brexit and when you

focus on a single issue in the way

that we have...

A lot of Muslims

voted for Brexit.

People from all

communities did but for most people

there is a world out there bigger

than Brexit and when we have a

government which unfortunately come

and to some extent without much

choice, as to focus obsessively on

one issue, much of the other work

being done is not being heard. The

race disparity audit was a really

important piece of work commissioned

by Theresa May to say that we need

to have a mapping of web communities

are being left behind.

Too close to

Donald Trump? Holding hands, did it

make you...

That was not a good look

and certainly many of us and I am

sure Theresa herself probably did

not enjoy that moment. That is why

do we need to put all of that one

side and focus a very Merry Muslim

Christmas.

Thank you very much

indeed.

That's just about it for tonight.

Before we go, we have

some music for you.

The One Heart Refugee

Choir formed recently.

Its members are mainly former

refugees and current asylum seekers

who have made their way to Britain

from less stable countries

around the world.

They've recorded their own version

of Bill Withers' classic

'Lean On Me' to raise awareness

of refugee issues.

You can find the full version

on YouTube if you wish,

and here's a taste.

Emily is here tomorrow

for our last show of the year.

Goodnight.

# Lean on me when you're not strong

# I'll be your friend, I'll help you

carry on

# For it won't be long

# Till I'm going to need somebody to

lean on

# Just call on me brother when you

need at hand

# We all need somebody to lean on

# I just might have a problem that

you will understand

# We all need somebody to lean on.

# Lean on me

# You can lean on me

# Lean on me

# Why don't you lean on me

# You can lean

# You can lean on me #.