15/12/2017 Newsnight

We're well on the road

to delivering a Brexit that'll

make Britain prosperous,

strong and secure.

We'll get it done and we'll get it

done in a very successful

and very timely way.

We are on course to deliver

on the sovereign vote of the British

people to leave the European Union,

and that's what we'll be doing.

But to what end?

Tonight, as the EU says talks can

move into the second phase,

we ask what comes next in the great

Brexit fandango.

Now that Tories have

defied Theresa May once,

tonight she seems to have seen off

another rebellion with a concession

on the date we leave the EU.

I'll be talking to the arch

Brexiteer Jacob Rees-Mogg

and rebel Ken Clarke.

And "yesterday is history,

tomorrow's a mystery" is part

of a famous phrase -

tonight we look ahead

to the mystery.

Will Britain, separate from the EU,

embrace a different identity -

more dynamic, international,

a bold new direction?

Or will we go the other way -

separate, smaller,

and inward looking?

We've assembled guests

who each have a different

vision of the future.

Also tonight...

I called it Geronimo, my friend.

Compared with the condoms

of today, it was like

wearing the inner tube of a cycle.

If it's so much easier and better

now, why are almost half of under

25-year-olds not using a condom

with a new partner?

What happened to "no

glove, no love?"

Is it the element of danger?

Is it carelessness?

Is it drink?

We'll be talking to one person

who suffered the consequences

and another who preaches safe sex.

Good evening.

At the end of a brutal parliamentary

week for the Government over Brexit,

Theresa May tonight appears to have

avoided another rebellion

by compromising over

the Government's attempt to enshrine

the date of Britain's

EU departure in law.

And in Brussels today, EU leaders -

with May absent and back home -

took less than half an hour

to formally agree to move

onto the second stage of talks.

But the document "calls on the UK

to provide further clarity

on its position on the framework

for the future relationship," and

there is much uncertainty to come.

So where do we stand

at the end of this week?

What do our European

partners make of us now?

And what is the road ahead

when it comes to this next

phase of negotiations?

Our political editor, Nick Watt,

reports from Brussels.

It's a season of peace,

a season of goodwill.

And, apparently, time

for a generosity of spirit.

But in Brussels, there are limits

to that Christmas munificence.

The atmosphere at this summit

is completely different to the last

gathering here in the autumn.

EU leaders have developed a grudging

respect for Theresa May and they've

decided to offer her

a small helping hand.

So the Prime Minister has been

given a breathing space

to allow her to formulate an agreed

Cabinet position on the UK's future

trading relationship with the EU.

But on the fundamentals,

the EU is not going soft.

The UK's decision to leave

the single market means

that the EU is saying,

your future relationship will be

that little more distant.

The hope is that the breather

will allow the UK to shape the UK's

guidelines for the future trade

negotiations and the Prime Minister

does want to press on with those

talks once the UK has fully

established its position.

A process that will move forward

decisively at the Cabinet next week.

In the New Year, David Davis

and Michel Barnier will start

to negotiate the transition period.

They will also touch informally

on the future trade relationship.

If the transition talks

conclude successfully,

EU leaders will agree to launch more

formal discussions on a future trade

relationship in March.

That'll leave seven months before

the informal EU deadline for

the overall withdrawal agreement.

So it will be quite a journey.

And Europe's two most powerful

leaders put on a show of unity today

to deliver what they regard

as some home truths.

TRANSLATION:

I did not participate

in the referendum and I certainly

would not have voted for Britain

leaving the union.

And so what we have to realise,

what we have to implement,

is what the Brits tell us

is their wish.

To the extent that this

is reconcilable with our wishes

and enables us in the future to have

good relations with

our partner, Britain.

Britain will decide,

they have told us they do not

want to stay in the single market,

simply because complete freedom

of movement is something

they cannot sign on to.

And we said you cannot stay

in the single market

with just some freedoms,

you have to accept all

of the full freedoms.

We need to respect not only

the sovereignty of the British

people but also their own rules.

What I can tell you from our

perspective is that the decisions

will be taken in order to comply

with two goals.

Solidarity with Ireland and then

compliance with the single market.

So we've just had a rare event

at European Council.

A joint press conference

between the President of France

and the German Chancellor.

On Brexit, they make clear

that the next stage will be far more

challenging and they will apply

the rules of the EU.

But the principal message

was about the challenges

for the remaining members

of the European Union

on defence cooperation

and on the future of the euro.

So the message is pretty clear.

No privileges for the UK

and the EU is moving on.

And those Brussels habits die hard

as the summit spinning kicks off.

But sadness hangs in the air.

I think that the overall

atmospherics is not a negative one.

Having said that, one should always

keep in mind that this is a divorce.

And all divorces are not

a happy occasion.

So people are, in a way,

satisfied that the divorce

proceedings can now proceed

in an orderly way.

But still, there are many people

who, although they understand

and respect the decision

of the United Kingdom to leave,

they feel sad about it.

Europe's capital enters

Christmas in sombre mood.

Brexit is underway but the really

hard bargaining lies ahead.

Nick's in Brussels for us.

What are you hearing

about what happens next?

Obviously, the next immediate phase

is a transition, negotiations on the

implementation phase, and there are

interesting points in Brussels about

the main concerns of the Leave

campaigner is, EU sources said that

during the transition phase the UK

would be absolutely at liberty to

negotiate free-trade deals with

countries around the world although

they would not be able to implement

them until the UK has fully left the

EU. But if the UK in those

negotiations with those free-trade

deals adopt any God alone approach,

but it would diverged in a dramatic

wave from EU regulations, then that

would create problems, problems for

those countries negotiating with the

EU would say, what about relations

with us? And but also make it

difficult, the EU says, for the UK

to roll over its involvement in the

current EU trade deals it is

involved in and might continue to

want to have a relationship with.

Thanks very much indeed.

Well, next week, Cabinet discussions

about what Brexit "end state"

the Government should be aiming

for are due to kick off.

We're joined by the Conservative MPs

Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ken Clarke.

Jacob, good evening. Last night,

Theresa May won applause in the EU.

Will you be applauding her tonight?

I am always applauding her, she is

an excellent Prime Minister giving

clear leadership of Brexit.

Are you

happy that you are going to be in

the EU with all of its structures

and constraints and its laws, until

2021?

As I understand it, that is a

position set out by the European

Union and it is not the law, this is

the beginning of the negotiations,

the EU said its intention is during

the transition period we will be

bound by the single market and the

European Court but the British

government has not accepted that and

it would be very unwise to.

It

sounded like Theresa May had

accepted that, all suggesting this

is still up for grabs?

I have got

here the statement issued by the

European Union and this was issued

by the 27 member states, it was not

agreed by the British government.

It

would be ridiculous. You are

suggesting... Coming away from

Brussels last night, it was clear

that Theresa May, not you, Theresa

May thinks that in the transition

period we are going to have to take

and not make EU laws and accept the

four freedoms and live by the

European Court was back that would

mean staying within the European

Union for two years which is not the

Prime Minister's disposition but the

Prime Minister has said she is in

favour of another mentation, which

means we leave in March 2019 and the

consequences are ever limited and

the transition, which the EU is

offering, that means we are still

effectively in the EU for the

following two years, we cannot

accept the senior law of the UK is

coming from the European Union.

When

we're outside and no longer have any

judge on the European court.

What

does that mean? We cannot possibly

accept? Argue about to rebel on

this? Are you going to jump up and

down on this? That is not the

position of the Government.

I am not

jumping up and down, I'm sitting

down calmly and discussing this with

you. But we cannot be a colony of

the EU for two years from 2019 until

2021, accepting laws made without

any say-so of the British people,

Parliament or people. That is not

leaving the European Union, that is

being a vassal state and I would be

surprised if that was government

policy.

The rebels have got Theresa

May on the run. They have got to

back away the final date. You think

she is being driven by people like

Ken Clarke?

Mr Clarke is a very

influential figure within the

Conservative Party and he is

entitled to rebel, as I was entitled

to rebel when David Cameron was a

Prime Minister. I think some of the

criticism made of the strong

pro-Europeans has been very unfair

but busy driving government policy?

No. It is clear that we will leave,

negotiations are moving towards that

and we will be out of the single

market and the Customs Union. Which

is tremendously important. But he is

entitled and right to make his

long-held and profoundly held views

known.

Thank you. Ken Clarke,

turning to you, I will ask you for

your interpretation of what happens

in the transition period but the

Daily Mail called you a self

consumed malcontent?

That is the

right description? There is a lot of

silly stuff in the right-wing

newspapers and I would have thought

later that it was obvious that we

have not in any way undermined the

government's negotiating position or

strengthened Jeremy Corbyn and we

certainly have not discussed any

amendment to stop bus leaving the

EU. Nonsense. The arguments are all

about what happens in Parliament.

The fact is, it was always a mistake

to think that Parliament was not

going to have the final say over the

details of the hugely important deal

which will determine our

relationships with Europe and the

rest of the world, politically and

economically, for the next

generation.

You say it is clear that

we will leave and that is not the

position you wanted to be in, you

voted against Article 50, you are

the arch rebel in that case. How can

the party get through the next few

months if what you and Jacob

Rees-Mogg are saying are

diametrically opposed?

The argument

about the transition period must be

resolved, the speech in Florence was

a first-time Theresa May made it

clear she accepts we cannot just go

off the cliff edge in March 2019,

you will not conceivably finished

negotiating the longer term

relationship by then, for two years,

probably more, you will need a

period in which we carry on with the

same relationship we have right now.

We will no longer be members, we

will be attending councils as

ministers, none

of that, but we will have free-trade

and we will have free trade on the

present terms. It would be a

disaster because we have not

finished the negotiations in March

2019, if we started raising tariff

barriers and regulatory barriers and

Customs barriers. I doubt we would

get planning permission for lorry

parks in that time! Over two years

you continue economically, exactly

as we are right now, but politically

you have left the union. That seems

quite easy to negotiate.

So you don't think we will be

accepting the four freedoms, you do

not think we will have two be bound

by new laws in that period.

Exactly

the opposite, we will stay on the

same terms as now, will be in the

single market, in the customs union,

we will be a bite by the rules of

the single market, which may change,

and we will be subject to the ECJ.

So internal party squabbling, no

fixed position, will that lead to

more stuff like Anna Soubry's

threats to hang Dominic Grieve,

death threats, have you received any

death threats?

I have got one, yes,

but I have had them before. That is

all the silly nonsense which a lot

of silly right-wing newspaper

reporting helped build up. Defeat on

an amendment, which governments

often suffer, the defeat was on the

subject of Parliamentary

accountability, and all the stuff

that spun from it was complete

nonsense, the amendment that was

carried had nothing to do with

whether we leave the European Union,

it had nothing to do with whether

Jeremy Corbyn may or may not be

Prime Minister. It was about the

Government being properly and

sensibly accountable to Parliament.

Thank you both very much indeed.

Remember safe sex?

Almost half of all under 25s

do not use a condom

when they are having

sex with a new partner.

That shocking figure

is from a new survey

by Public Health England and YouGov.

It's probably why last year

there were more than 141,000

chlamydia and gonorrhoea diagnoses

in people between

the ages of 16 and 24.

Both STIs, if not treated,

can lead to infertility.

Such is the problem

that the Government

is about to launch its first sexual

health campaign in eight years.

It's all a lot to take in when most

of us thought things had moved on.

Look what we had to put up with.

I called it Geronimo, my friend.

Compared with the condoms

of today, it was like

wearing the inner tube of a cycle.

It wasn't disposable,

like the modern condoms.

It was designed to be

used again and again!

Noah is a college

student, and Ella Harvey

is the welfare representative

at Queen Mary's Students' Union.

Good evening to both of you. First

of all, tell me what happened to

you.

I transmitted chlamydia by

having and protected sex with a new

partner, someone who I had known

before, so obviously I trusted them,

but foolishly, I have learned my

lesson now. But I got side effects

quite quickly, and what I did, which

I would recommend to a lot of young

people, if you see anything out of

the ordinary, any side effects, get

checked out soon, because if it is

something, better to nip it in the

bud.

So you knew this partner,

somebody you had been friendly with,

you did not know that she had

chlamydia.

No.

And she didn't know.

Exactly.

So you had sex with her,

thinking that whatever protection

she had meant she wouldn't get

pregnant, but you never thought

about protection for the sake of

health.

Exactly.

Why didn't you use

a condom?

Like a lot of young teens

in the moment, it is a heat of the

moment thing, it is not a top

priority, and you do look past some

important things which may have

serious ramifications in the future.

Did you know what chlamydia was?

I

had heard of it a little bit at

school, but it hadn't been hugely,

hugely educated to me. But that is

just personally me, throughout the

UK, you know, sexual health

education is quite on point at the

moment.

The story, is it fairly

typical?

I think it is very typical

of most people between the ages of

16 and 24, and even older as well. I

think that is a really common

experience to have, and yeah, I

mean...

I think it is extraordinary,

because we went through this whole

time of talking about safe sex, it

was related to pregnancy more than

anything else, 141,000 cases of

chlamydia and gonorrhoea in under

25s.

A lot of that has to do with

what you said, about wanting to

detect against pregnancy, and with

things like the implant and the

coil, they are brilliant and really

helpful, but obviously they don't

protect against STIs, which is

something that a lot of people do

not consider.

Women do not display

symptoms of chlamydia, and it is

interesting, because if it was a

case that affected men's fertility,

I think the attitude may be

different.

I agree, I think the

attitude would be quite different,

and I think a lot of the problems,

as I have seen my role as well be

representative, it is something that

myself and my colleagues are trying

to tackle. If this sort of gender

attitudes to sexual health is

something that can be perceived as a

negative attitude, but I don't think

it necessarily is.

Is a that if you

think that the partner you have this

protecting herself from pregnancy,

you are prepared to take a risk?

Definitely not, actually, I have

really learned my lesson, but I

would say to anyone, even if you

know the person, never have

unprotected sex.

Isn't the

conversation too difficult to have?

And also, isn't the case that it is

just drink and spontaneity?

Yeah, I

think definitely, and another thing,

are not prioritising ringing a

condom when they go out, so

personally it is better to have it

and not needed than needed and not

have it.

I am surprised that so many

young women will take the risk of

sexual disease.

I mean... Yeah, but

I think that I am surprised as well

that I think, when you are educated

about sexual health at school and

that college, I don't think that the

emphasis is particularly gendered, I

don't think there is a massive

emphasis either way.

And is the new

campaign going to work?

I think it

would have to be more sex positive,

it would have to include the idea

that women are allowed to have sex

and enjoy sex, and with that comes

responsibility from the male and

female perspectives.

Thank you both

very much indeed.

As we move towards the end

of the year and have cleared

the first Brexit hurdle,

can we look ahead to our future

outside of the EU, beyond 2021?

What will it mean for the image

that we project to the world?

Is this a chance to

reinvent ourselves?

We did with the

Industrial Revolution, Empire,

and after the Second World War.

So what next?

I'm joined by the writer

Sarfraz Manzoor,

Rebecca Walton is regional director

for Europe at the British Council,

and from Stanford University,

the historian Niall Ferguson.

Good evening, all of you, I would

like to bring in first of all with

you, Niall, what is your version and

your vision, I should say, for the

future of Britain after 2021? Say

the next five years.

Well, I would

love to believe what the Brexiteers

promise, that by voting to leave the

European Union, we become global

Britain and perhaps part of a vital

new rejuvenated Anglosphere, but my

impression is that the opposite is

happening, that the divorce process,

which may well still be going on

five years from now is so absorbing

British political culture that we

have become significantly more

parochial since the referendum, more

inward looking. I visit Britain

regularly from the United States,

and I am struck every time I come by

just how far Brexit is consuming us

and causing us to turn inwards,

rather than outwards. In that sense,

their plan is going rather wrong.

If

you say it is the political class

that does not have the wherewithal

to rise above this and lead us to a

new beginning, maybe it is other

people, cultural figures,

industrialists, scientists, maybe

people have got to say, we all voted

for this in a referendum, we cannot

leave it to politicians to define

our place in the world.

Well, part

of the problem, Kirsty, is that I

think there was an assumption back

in 2016 that something was happening

simultaneously in the United States

that would create a new Atlantic

relationship. That something, of

course, was the populist wave that

produced Donald Trump, and there was

a brief moment when he talked about

Brexit and people were excited about

Trump, but in late 27 it is clear

that British people are about as

negative on Donald Trump as people

on the European continent. It is

just one of those signs of how

European we are that we hate Donald

Trump almost as much as the Germans,

the Dutch under this weeds do! So

the problem with the Brexit vision

of a global Britain is that if

global Britain does not include the

United States and does not include a

broader Anglosphere, then what

exactly is it?

I will ask the

British Council, you are charged

with forging new international

relations, creating new bonds, maybe

it will not be towards America, but

you see this as an opportunity to

reinvent?

I think re-find as well as

reinvent, because we have been a

global nation, and Eddie are

suddenly emerging after the

referendum seems bizarre. -- the

idea. We were a global nation for

400 years, 500 years, if nothing

else. So I think re-finding that

connection with other parts of the

world, yes, very important, if we

are going to make this reinvention,

as you call it, that is where we

will turn.

We may have to reinvent

the relationship with the rest of

the European Union.

Indeed we do,

but there is a lot of tolerance for

that. Picking up on what Niall said,

this consuming conversation about

the divorce is not consuming most

Europeans, it is the bureaucrats,

but the people of Europe have moved

on already - they have their own

problems, their own identity issues,

migration issues, industrialists

use, developing their own economies.

They are all doing that, and they

see us was a friend, so the divorce

is not such a huge gap.

Sarfraz

Manzoor, we are in a situation now

where the country is divided, by

nations, locally, city by city,

urban and rural - what is the

mechanism by which we come together

and become very proactive in forging

and making the country look

physically different?

You have got

90 seconds for this?! It seems like

there is a disconnect between the

first part of the programme, the

technicalities, the discussions et

cetera, and the reason why people

voted for Brexit. For me, it was an

emotional moment, a protest vote

that has been turned into a viable

policy, so the question about

division, for me, you have got

people who are yearning for a simple

past, a vision of Britain which has

fewer immigrants.

Monocultural?

Where they feel more comfortable,

perhaps because they feel they have

not economically benefited, perhaps

because they do not feel politicians

have spoken for them, and then the

Remainers be a more comfortable with

that. This vision of Britain, how do

you do something which does not just

return to old ideas about Britain

alone which do not really include

the Empire in the same way, do not

include the new arrivals? It is

about trying to create a new version

of Britain.

And who does that?

A lot

of things will not really change, it

seems to me, people are still

wanting to go to universities across

Europe, people from Europe will want

to come here, the arts things will

carry on, so for me it is symbolic,

do we want England or Britain to

feel small or feel like we are

connected? Personally, the wider the

label, the more comfortable I peel.

Niall Ferguson, where does our

economic strength like, high-end

engineering, medical science, the

creative industries? How do we make

a new mark on the world?

Well, the

United Kingdom is sold itself, you

may remember, as cool Britannia back

in the 1990s, and I think part of

the charm of Brexit for the rest of

the world is that we are going to

market ourselves as square

Britannia, people realise how

appealing Jacob Rees-Mogg is as a

character around the world Dr

please, he is charming but...

A

wonderfully stereotypical vigour.

Charming as that is, we have to say

that the whole point about this is

to FOI we up to have international

trade, new relationships, how do we

do that? -- to free us up.

The world

is complex, having a square image

will not keep us in the mainstream

of a fast-moving world, we need to

join in with the tone that

recognises strengths without

boasting, and I think that we take

very quickly in Britain from a

position of great strength in many

areas, but we then tend to use it in

some way that is not quite as

alluring as you want to bring people

to you.

Just speaking up about the

charming Jacob Rees-Mogg, one of the

problems is, I don't think there are

people, particularly in politics,

speaking in an optimistic vision of

what it means to be British.

Why do

we leave that to the politicians?

Maybe those are things that happen

organically through culture,

festivals, films, books, maybe the

things that people consume and

experience, rather than top-down

leaders.

Do you think, as the

British Council, that we can make

much more of our relationships in

the Commonwealth, and that perhaps

Canada is doing better than us?

The

Commonwealth is there, Kirsty, but

we have not been paying enough

attention to it to look like a

member that is absolutely part of

the family. There is a conundrum in

that, the Australians and Canadians

have taken leadership of the

Commonwealth, and we would need to

ask very nicely if we can come back

in, in a way, despite the leadership

with the Queen.

What is our best

chance, Niall Ferguson, in the next

decade, for greatness, to put the

great back in Britain?

Well, I don't

think the rest of the world expects

greatness from post-Brexit Britain.

I think light relief, comedy, those

are the things that we have excelled

at, rather like popular music. The

paradox of Britain is that we have

got steadily worse at doing things

like trade agreements, complex

negotiations, ultimately Brexit

happened because a complex

negotiation with the European Union

about Britain's special status went

horribly wrong for David Cameron,

and I think the negotiations of the

divorce are also going pretty wrong,

because David Davis is not a match

for Michel Barnier. Luckily, we are

still very good at entertainment and

pretty good at most forms of

culture, and that is why people will

continue to come to London,

expecting to be entertained and

amused by our politicians.

And they

will be coming to lots of other

cities throughout the United

Kingdom!

That's all for this evening,

but we leave you with

the finalists of the 2017

Comedy Wildlife Photography Awards.

Pretty self-explanatory, really.

Good night.

MUSIC: "Close To You"

by Jacob Collier

# Why do birds suddenly appear?

# Every time you are near

# Just like me