04/01/2018 Newsnight


04/01/2018

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis. Newsnight asks: is social media harming children?


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 04/01/2018. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

The playground has always been

a judgemental space...

0:00:050:00:09

But there's no playground

more judgemental than

0:00:090:00:10

that of social media.

0:00:100:00:16

What does getting a like mean?

You

get popular.

Popularity.

You know

0:00:160:00:23

people like me.

0:00:230:00:26

It's hard enough for adults

to navigate their way

0:00:260:00:28

through the world of social media -

so feel for the children

0:00:280:00:31

who have to learn the do's

and don'ts for themselves.

0:00:310:00:34

England's Children Commissioner

thinks they need guidance.

0:00:340:00:36

We'll ask what parents

and schools can do to help,

0:00:360:00:38

and what damage is done

if they don't.

0:00:380:00:40

Would you be more likely to invest

in a furniture manufacturer

0:00:400:00:44

if they put the word "blockchain"

in their name and said

0:00:440:00:47

they were now getting

into the crypto-currency business?

0:00:470:00:49

Yes?

0:00:490:00:53

You're not alone.

0:00:530:00:54

It's all the rage.

0:00:540:00:55

We have a psychology professor

to help analyse your problem.

0:00:550:00:57

And activist power.

0:00:570:00:59

A new study tells us

what the members of

0:00:590:01:01

political parties think.

0:01:010:01:02

And, yes, they do think.

0:01:020:01:04

But are they exerting too much power

over parties that are really meant

0:01:040:01:07

to be accountable to the people?

0:01:070:01:14

Hello.

0:01:180:01:19

We've all met adults

who are worryingly addicted

0:01:190:01:21

to social media and the sense

of self worth it gives them.

0:01:210:01:24

So how much more concerned should

we be, when it comes to children?

0:01:240:01:27

Well, the Children's Commissioner

for England, Anne Longfield,

0:01:270:01:31

is very worried about those leaving

primary school, who end up craving

0:01:310:01:34

acceptance via likes

and positive comments on line.

0:01:340:01:40

Publishing a study on social media

use of 8 to 12-year-olds,

0:01:400:01:42

she concludes that schools need

to help the pre-teens prepare

0:01:420:01:46

for the emotional assaults

they will endure on social media

0:01:460:01:49

when they are in secondary school.

0:01:490:01:53

Enormous change in the use of social

media from something that is fun

0:01:530:01:57

and friendly and part of family life

when they're

0:01:570:01:59

younger, to an absolute cliff edge

when 13 go to secondary school -

0:01:590:02:04

which we know is one

of the most pressured times

0:02:040:02:07

for children when they

start to learn what the new

0:02:070:02:09

environment is about, where they

have an avalanche of

0:02:090:02:11

pressure from social media.

0:02:110:02:12

Suddenly, the whole new peer group

has a phone in their hand

0:02:120:02:22

and has access to social

media as part of that.

0:02:230:02:26

She thinks parents need

guidance too, by the way.

0:02:260:02:28

But before we talk about how

to best help young people

0:02:280:02:31

navigate social media,

let's hear from them.

0:02:310:02:32

We sent Katie Razzall to a girl's

state secondary school

0:02:320:02:35

in south London today.

0:02:350:02:38

She talked to some eleven and

12-year-olds. Their school has a ban

0:02:380:02:46

on phones, but for a conversation

about phones and what these students

0:02:460:02:50

do with them, the rules quite fairly

went out of the window. Does

0:02:500:02:56

everyone in your class have a smart

phone?

Yes.

I got it when I was 10,

0:02:560:03:03

because my mum thinks I'm sensible.

As I got into year six I started

0:03:030:03:10

having Instagram and things like

that and yeah...

Lie did you want

0:03:100:03:13

them?

I think it is because everyone

else had it and it is not like, it

0:03:130:03:19

is at school I want it.

You're

supposed to be 13 to have them?

Yes.

0:03:190:03:27

It makes people our age feel under

pressure, because you know you're

0:03:300:03:35

supposed to have this thing and your

parents say you can't and it is over

0:03:350:03:38

and over again like a cycle, should

I get it?

Other people have Facebook

0:03:380:03:48

and Instagram.

Some people that you

have got to be like them and do

0:03:480:03:52

everything they do and if you don't

have something, people aren't going

0:03:520:03:57

to like you.

I had music in my

phone, because I thought it would be

0:03:570:04:02

fun. Then I found out that all the

stalkers and all the other people

0:04:020:04:07

that are not really good. So I just,

my mum told me to take it off.

I

0:04:070:04:12

spend about... Six to seven hours on

my phone.

Every day?

It just depends

0:04:120:04:21

on what I'm doing every day.

Used to

spend a lot of time on my phone, now

0:04:210:04:27

I spend kind of enough.

What is

that? Four or five hours a day. But

0:04:270:04:35

I'm also on games.

I don't spend

much time on my phone, because I do

0:04:350:04:44

things like learning Japanese

because of some obvious reasons.

0:04:440:04:48

What does getting a like mean?

You

get

popular? People appreciate me.

I

0:04:510:05:06

don't have the social media that

gets me like, but my friends care

0:05:060:05:10

about getting likes.

When I observe

my friend getting them likes, they

0:05:100:05:20

go, like they have won the lottery,

like I got a like. And for them it

0:05:200:05:27

means the whole world.

Do you think

it can be damaging to people?

Yeah,

0:05:270:05:33

because for example Instagram it is

something like the perfect image and

0:05:330:05:37

the perfect body and people can

change that and start to not eat

0:05:370:05:41

anything or start to change the way

they look or you know do things

0:05:410:05:47

without their parents knowing. Yeah,

it is damaging.

0:05:470:05:50

Do people worry about being rejected

if they're not part of something

0:05:590:06:04

online?

Yes. It depends who it is.

Some feel if I don't get added to

0:06:040:06:14

this group, then you're not part of

anything and you feel like excluded

0:06:140:06:18

from everyone.

People go out of

their way to try and make themselves

0:06:180:06:23

look like the perfect image. They

have seen someone like a celebrity

0:06:230:06:29

and they're, like, they're perfect.

So they try to make themselves look

0:06:290:06:32

like them in speech or in appearance

or even in personality.

Sometimes

0:06:320:06:39

two people are having an argument

and loads of people go on one side

0:06:390:06:45

and the other person feels bad. And

they get upset and people add them

0:06:450:06:53

back to torment them.

People believe

people, like they say, oh, you're

0:06:530:06:59

not good enough. And yeah, that is

what they say.

Online?

Yeah.

How

0:06:590:07:05

does that make people feel?

Sad.

Views from one school there.

0:07:050:07:14

Now, I am joined by head teacher

of Passmores Academy Vic Goddard,

0:07:140:07:17

author Shannon Kyle,

and Carina Maggar who is choosing to

0:07:170:07:19

take a step back from social media.

0:07:190:07:25

I want to ask each of you, if I put

a button here and if you pushed that

0:07:250:07:32

button all social media disappears

and is eradicated from everyone

0:07:320:07:38

under 16 would you push the butt snn

Yes.

Why would you do that?

Because

0:07:380:07:45

it has so many negative effects and

it is so time consuming on their

0:07:450:07:51

daily lives. So much time is spend

on their phone.

They can keep the

0:07:510:07:56

internet and look things up, just

the social media.

I would push it as

0:07:560:08:01

well.

Yes?

Definitely. I think the

ability to communicate orally is

0:08:010:08:09

affected by the fact is that they

communicate in that way and I think

0:08:090:08:15

it will limit their life chances.

You can have both, but that takes

0:08:150:08:18

parenting and balance.

We have heard

one pupil in that saying, six hours

0:08:180:08:23

a day on the phone.

That is

ridiculous.

Do you come across that

0:08:230:08:28

that?

Yes. If I ask a pupil where

their school planner is they can't

0:08:280:08:35

find it but they know where their

phone it.

I believe it can be a

0:08:350:08:40

force for good and I think that

there is a lot of hysteria around

0:08:400:08:44

this that is unnecessary. It is like

in the 1960s when our grandparents'

0:08:440:08:52

generation were worried and the

coffee shops and it was just

0:08:520:08:56

something for young people and I

think that it can do a force for

0:08:560:08:59

good. They can make friends and get

advice that they wouldn't otherwise

0:08:590:09:05

get. Of course, it can be a bit of a

beast and it needs containing and

0:09:050:09:12

using responsibly, but ultimately it

is a fantastic thing. When I was a

0:09:120:09:16

teenager in the nineties I was stuck

in my bedroom thumbing through old

0:09:160:09:23

copies of Just 17.

I'm struck by if

kids are not being cruel this way,

0:09:230:09:29

they're going to be cruel in another

method. Maybe we worry about the

0:09:290:09:33

vehicle.

It is control. Where is my

child at its safest? In my house. If

0:09:330:09:40

my son's in my house he is safe. Not

any more. He is not safe in my

0:09:400:09:45

house. If I don't know what he is

on, what social media, we have got

0:09:450:09:51

to translate social media into the

real world, would you allow a

0:09:510:09:55

stranger to walk into your child's

bedroom? No. That is not good

0:09:550:09:59

enough. Would you like a stranger to

walk up to your child in a park? No.

0:09:590:10:05

It is about good parenting.

Kit be a

superaccelerator of problems,

0:10:050:10:13

children can bully each other, they

always have, but it can be

0:10:130:10:21

particularly aggressively magnified

when there is this power of

0:10:210:10:26

communication. Is that not a

problem?

Of course it is. I wouldn't

0:10:260:10:29

deny for a second that it was. But

at the end of the day, on social

0:10:290:10:35

media, you can block somebody. If

you're getting bullied in the school

0:10:350:10:40

ground, you have to see them. And if

you educate your children to

0:10:400:10:46

actually acknowledge when this is

happening, when something's out of

0:10:460:10:51

order, you can get them to do it.

Do

you buy that?

I find it so difficult

0:10:510:10:57

to answer that question. It is about

educating your kids and about

0:10:570:11:01

knowing... I would worry that

putting up a selfie and a kid

0:11:010:11:10

receiving ten likes will feel ugly

and insecure and it is about

0:11:100:11:14

educating your children about the

things they should be sharing

0:11:140:11:17

online.

Let's talk about how we make

it better. We haven't got the

0:11:170:11:22

button, we just have to make the

best of what exists. You have writ

0:11:220:11:27

an letter to your parents.

Bizarrely

today.

It had nothing to do with

0:11:270:11:34

this. You have rules, you let them

bring phones in. You could say no

0:11:340:11:39

phones.

Schools do. When you speak

to the parents of the children in

0:11:390:11:46

the school, because some work in my

school and they go they have never

0:11:460:11:50

handed their phone in once. The the

school has achieved that the phone

0:11:500:11:56

is not disturbing learning. Some say

you have to hand it in. I haven't

0:11:560:12:02

got one today, Sir. Of course you

haven't. For me, it is about as a

0:12:020:12:07

parent giving them a space where it

is monitored. Getting them to

0:12:070:12:11

understand having a phone is a

privilege, not a right. I have given

0:12:110:12:15

them that phone and there comes

responsibility for their behaviour

0:12:150:12:18

and how they deal with each other.

Charging stations in your house no,

0:12:180:12:22

phone in the bedroom. Before you go

to bed, the phone is charged here.

0:12:220:12:26

You have a night's sleep. The

fear... Of missing out.

What with

0:12:260:12:33

your daughter, do you let her keep

the phone with her by the bed at

0:12:330:12:37

night?

She is 16 now, I would defy

any parent after the age of 14 or 15

0:12:370:12:43

to take that phone off them. It is

about being sensible, but it is

0:12:430:12:48

also, it is about education, so the

kids need to know when they have had

0:12:480:12:52

enough. Sometimes my daughter says,

I have had enough of my phone and

0:12:520:12:57

I'm going to put it away.

She is

just fooling you.

That is what I

0:12:570:13:05

started to do, I found I was

spending too much time on my phone.

0:13:050:13:09

And you have to have the will power

to say it is not the first thing I

0:13:090:13:14

will look at in the morning. It is a

fairly tale land, this is the real

0:13:140:13:19

world. What is in the palm of your

hand is a fairy tale version.

It

0:13:190:13:25

takes a lot for a teenager think

that when everybody else is looking

0:13:250:13:31

at their phone.

There is a thing

about tough love, I don't think it

0:13:310:13:36

is tough love, it is authentic care.

I want to keep my child safe and Pow

0:13:360:13:46

understand the power and what it can

be used for in the good and to

0:13:460:13:49

understand when it is time to put it

away, I as a adult will make that

0:13:490:13:55

decision if I have to.

Do you allow

your daughter secrets on line, you

0:13:550:14:04

don't read her texts?

No, not now.

When she was younger I was there

0:14:040:14:12

when she signed up to Facebook and

giter and looked to see what she was

0:14:120:14:18

doing. She fined up at 1.

She is not

allowed at 11.

The rule is 13. But

0:14:180:14:24

they're all doing it at 11. I made a

decision, maybe I may...

You let her

0:14:240:14:30

lie online?

Yes I did. I hold my

hands up.

What does that teach her?

0:14:300:14:41

Why are they different ages?

This is

the thing. The social network

0:14:410:14:47

companies need to get together and

they need to monitor this. It isn't

0:14:470:14:51

being monitored. Kids will do what

they want at whatever age. You are

0:14:510:14:55

right, it starts at secondary

school, that's when the problems

0:14:550:14:59

start. If you go to secondary

school, you don't have a mobile

0:14:590:15:01

phone, you are not on social media,

you are really left out.

It must

0:15:010:15:06

come back to the schools, as much as

it comes to the parents. If the

0:15:060:15:10

parents try to impose something on

their child that none of the other

0:15:100:15:14

are doing.

What impact can I have? I

cannot tell parents that, I can

0:15:140:15:20

encourage, but I can't do it.

At

least the hours you have them at

0:15:200:15:24

school, you can say put the phones

away.

That is what we say. From my

0:15:240:15:29

point of view, if a child is doing a

science experiment, they can put it

0:15:290:15:35

on their phone, and use it later,

that is worthwhile. I used to like

0:15:350:15:41

the blackberry phones, because they

used to flash a red light in their

0:15:410:15:48

pockets. IPhones, we say in your

bag, unless we give them permission

0:15:480:15:51

to have it out. A parent who gives a

phone to their child without

0:15:510:15:58

boundaries, they have reneged on

their responsibilities.

We will

0:15:580:16:01

leave it there. Thank you.

0:16:010:16:02

You've heard of bitcoin,

and its ability to apparently

0:16:020:16:05

create money from nothing.

0:16:050:16:05

And hundreds of billions

of dollars of money at that.

0:16:050:16:08

But you may have missed just how

wacky the world of crypto currencies

0:16:080:16:11

has become in recent weeks.

0:16:110:16:12

There are over a thousand

of them now - and more

0:16:120:16:15

are being created all the time.

0:16:150:16:16

It's a classic gold rush.

0:16:160:16:17

But even more weird has been the way

ordinary companies have jumped

0:16:170:16:20

on the bandwagon with some

spectacular market results.

0:16:200:16:22

One American iced tea maker,

for example, changed

0:16:220:16:24

its name in December

from Long Island Iced Tea Corp,

0:16:240:16:27

to Long Blockchain Corp -

blockchain being the technology that

0:16:270:16:29

powers bitcoin and other

digital currencies.

0:16:290:16:31

The share price tripled.

0:16:310:16:32

Not surprisingly, regulators

are worried and many think this

0:16:320:16:34

is reminiscent of the worst excesses

of the dot com bubble.

0:16:340:16:37

Our technology editor David Grossman

explains what has been going on.

0:16:370:16:47

A rose by any other name, of course,

but in the corporate world names

0:16:520:16:56

matter. The promising start-up

backrub that managed to conquer the

0:16:560:17:03

world would not have done had it not

changed its name to Google. Wood

0:17:030:17:07

blue ribbon sports have made such a

swoosh if it hadn't become Nikkei?

0:17:070:17:12

-- if it hasn't become Nike. We have

had the words biotech and nano

0:17:120:17:20

putting companies -- are giving

companies a good share price. Now,

0:17:200:17:27

the word is blockchain.

If people

stick blockchain in their company

0:17:270:17:35

name, people will think, we will go

with them, because I will see a good

0:17:350:17:39

return. You are seeing that a lot.

Anything with bitcoin is doing well.

0:17:390:17:48

Blockchain Might be able to do

similar, so people will want some.

0:17:480:17:52

It's the technology that underpins

currencies like bitcoin. It allows

0:17:520:18:00

every currency to verify every

transaction. It means you can do

0:18:000:18:03

away with a central register which

is vulnerable to hacking.

Blockchain

0:18:030:18:09

Is opening up a way to do finance

which is more transparent, cheaper,

0:18:090:18:16

faster, and it gives us the ability

to cut out a lot of the middlemen

0:18:160:18:20

and automated processes, whilst

still keeping the same level or an

0:18:200:18:25

improved level of security. But

it'll take time. We still have a

0:18:250:18:27

long way to go. We need to battle

test the technology. There will be

0:18:270:18:32

ups and downs along the way. From a

starting point, it's a really good

0:18:320:18:37

start.

Our company simply cashing in

on the name? Take, for example,

0:18:370:18:43

online plc, an Essex -based company

that plodded along with a share

0:18:430:18:47

price so that you could hang washing

on it. Until late October when it

0:18:470:18:51

changed its name to online

blockchain plc, the 400% share price

0:18:510:18:58

rise immediately. The name change

simply reflected the reality of what

0:18:580:19:02

the company was now doing, according

to its owner.

Clearly changed our

0:19:020:19:07

name once in a generation. But it

was a big change. It's had a big

0:19:070:19:10

effect. We could have carried on

with online and not change the name

0:19:100:19:18

and nobody would know for another

six, nine months, that would be a

0:19:180:19:22

distortion of the facts. It's

important with names that you tell

0:19:220:19:27

people what you are doing and that

you transmit your message. It's all

0:19:270:19:31

well and good being called something

obscure, but it's hard to get your

0:19:310:19:33

message across.

In some cases,

though, in the early stages of a new

0:19:330:19:39

technology it isn't always possible

to say which companies claims are

0:19:390:19:42

real and which mere illusion.

Investors have to be very careful.

0:19:420:19:48

There is a lot of good projects out

there and equally there are a lot of

0:19:480:19:52

projects that have understood that

by just using the buzzword

0:19:520:19:58

blockchain you can attract a lot of

investors and money. Homework is

0:19:580:20:02

required. A lot of self education,

self teaching, is required before

0:20:020:20:06

putting any money to these products.

As the super investor Warren Buffett

0:20:060:20:13

sagely remarked, only when the tide

goes out to you discover who has

0:20:130:20:15

been swimming naked. The blockchain

tide is still rising and come who

0:20:150:20:23

knows, it might do for decades, or

it might drain on the Santa Maria

0:20:230:20:28

exposing, well, who knows what?

0:20:280:20:30

Well, at least in the time

of tulipmania, there were actual

0:20:300:20:33

tulips at the end of it all,

and people understood

0:20:330:20:35

what they could do.

0:20:350:20:36

Let's talk to Professor Peter Ayton

who is a psychologist specialising

0:20:360:20:39

in behavioural economics.

0:20:390:20:43

Would you buy shares into a company

that changed its name, and changed

0:20:430:20:47

its focus to dabbling in crypto

currencies?

Possibly. I'm a human

0:20:470:20:54

like everybody else. I don't suppose

my baby would be that discrepant

0:20:540:20:57

from what everybody else might

think.

To me it looks crazy. -- I

0:20:570:21:04

don't suppose my behaviour. What

would motivate people to go into

0:21:040:21:08

this? Has agreed taking over? There

were some psychology, isn't there?

0:21:080:21:14

-- has agreed.

There is a behaviour

which is anonymous with respect to

0:21:140:21:22

what economists think ought to be

happening. That shouldn't be a

0:21:220:21:24

surprise. We have had another Nobel

Prize for a behavioural economist

0:21:240:21:31

this year. What we observe happening

is no surprise to me.

Is it almost

0:21:310:21:39

hormonal, biological, you can put

people's brains into MRIs and see

0:21:390:21:43

what they are thinking when they

make these choices?

This is the

0:21:430:21:48

field of new economics. The

existence of such a field would be a

0:21:480:21:52

science fiction 20 years ago. But

now it is providing us with all

0:21:520:21:55

sorts of insight into the way the

brain does things, which then have

0:21:550:22:00

ramifications. It is slightly

curious to me that we have this,

0:22:000:22:05

sort of common interest in

phenomena, which, sort of, looks

0:22:050:22:09

psychological more than economic.

Irrational exuberance is one of the

0:22:090:22:14

hallmarks of the surprise that human

beings have brains and emotions and

0:22:140:22:19

all sorts of things, why shouldn't

that reflect in economic behaviour?

0:22:190:22:23

Looking at this, though, you've got

people borrowing money to invest in

0:22:230:22:29

these things. In the currencies

themselves. And now presumably in

0:22:290:22:33

some of the shares of companies

dabbling in it. Probably doing that

0:22:330:22:37

in the hope others will do that, so

the prices will go on up. Isn't that

0:22:370:22:45

just a bubble? An archetypal case of

a bubble?

The stock market is based

0:22:450:22:50

on an audit assessment of what

people think other people will

0:22:500:22:53

think, other people will think it's

worth, and so on. -- based on nth

0:22:530:23:02

assessment. You are basing things on

people's behaviour, rather than

0:23:020:23:08

understanding asset value of a

business.

What is the asset value of

0:23:080:23:12

a business that says, we made

furniture, now we are going to do

0:23:120:23:16

something involving a currency like

bitcoin... How do you possibly think

0:23:160:23:24

this company is going to be in a

particularly good position to

0:23:240:23:27

generate profit?

I don't really

understand exactly why the sort of

0:23:270:23:33

thing happens. Neither does anybody

else, for that matter. The idea that

0:23:330:23:37

changing the name of something might

make a difference is as old as the

0:23:370:23:40

hills. We've seen that happened many

times -- happen many times.

You see

0:23:400:23:48

more relaxed by this than perhaps

even regulators are. They are

0:23:480:23:52

obviously worried lots of people

will lose quite a bit out of it, I

0:23:520:23:58

think.

I don't know how you can

regulate for people to prevent them

0:23:580:24:02

from speculating in a way they see

fit. There is an market if you

0:24:020:24:06

regulate that out of existence.

And

people losing money. The advice is

0:24:060:24:11

not to invest into it if you cannot

afford to do that if you lose.

I

0:24:110:24:15

don't know how much the investment

is discretionary. I don't know, I

0:24:150:24:21

would be astonished if everybody

backed their hat on it -- on

0:24:210:24:28

bitcoin, for example.

Thanks Ray

much.

0:24:280:24:35

-- thank you very much.

0:24:390:24:40

Viewsnight has no aspirations to add

blockchain or any other

0:24:400:24:42

cryptocurrency terms to its title.

0:24:420:24:44

It is is of course our opinion slot,

and this week we are getting views

0:24:440:24:47

on big issues that face us in 2018.

0:24:470:24:49

Now on Brexit, among fervent

remainers, there is a big

0:24:490:24:52

debate going on right now

as to whether it is right to aim

0:24:520:24:55

at reversing Brexit,

or whether that is anti-democratic.

0:24:550:24:57

It's a lively argument, but tonight,

Times columnist David Aaronovitch

0:24:570:24:59

argues that Brexit voters may be

in demographic decline.

0:24:590:25:04

The Brexit generation is dying out.

The other evening I was talking to a

0:25:040:25:13

friend from Yorkshire about, you

know what.

0:25:130:25:15

Should we be grateful to the members

of political parties?

0:27:210:27:24

They pay subscriptions that help

keep the parties going, they trudge

0:27:240:27:27

the streets trying to bring politics

to your doorstep, they go to

0:27:270:27:30

meetings to help shape party policy.

0:27:300:27:31

And however much you may

dislike politicians,

0:27:310:27:33

you at least have to recognise that

democracy requires functioning

0:27:330:27:36

parties, even if it is only to give

you something to complain about.

0:27:360:27:39

So, yes, we should be

grateful to the activists.

0:27:390:27:45

But at the same time

there is a problem - they now

0:27:450:27:48

have the power to pick a Prime

Minister and yet they are not

0:27:480:27:51

altogether representative

of the population at large.

0:27:510:27:53

And we can say that now

because of a big survey of party

0:27:530:27:56

members, carried out

by the Mile End Institute attached

0:27:560:27:58

to Queen Mary University of London.

0:27:580:28:08

And on and on TV coverage of the

party conferences. Maybe you can

0:28:080:28:12

tell they are not typical. The

average age of conservatives is 57.

0:28:120:28:17

The population at large is younger,

average age 40. Labour is more

0:28:170:28:22

surprising. You might have seen

images of lots of young Jeremy

0:28:220:28:26

Corbyn supporters, but the party's

membership actually has an average

0:28:260:28:30

age is not much different to the

Tories, 53. But what about their

0:28:300:28:37

views? Labour and Tories are poles

apart, they imported the divisions

0:28:370:28:41

within the country. On same-sex

marriage, for example, conservatives

0:28:410:28:45

are only 41% in favour, labour, 85%.

The public are in the middle at

0:28:450:28:52

about 66%. On the death penalty,

most Tory members think it is the

0:28:520:28:57

most appropriate sentence for some

crimes, and fewer than a tenth of

0:28:570:29:01

Labour voters do. National polls put

public support for the reinstatement

0:29:010:29:06

of the death penalty at between 36

and 49%, depending on how you ask

0:29:060:29:11

the question. Then there is Brexit.

Should Britain stay in the single

0:29:110:29:16

market, for example, a quarter of

conservatives want to, the vast bulk

0:29:160:29:21

of Labour members want to. As for

the public at large, polls vary, as

0:29:210:29:26

do the questions, but generally

support for the single market is

0:29:260:29:28

nearer 50%. You would expect

activists to be unrepresentative,

0:29:280:29:34

particularly as there are so many

fewer of them as they used to be.

0:29:340:29:38

The Tories boasted of having over 2

million members in the 50s, now it

0:29:380:29:42

is maybe fewer than 150,000, but

they don't publish figures any more.

0:29:420:29:47

But that's select group has the

potential power to select a Prime

0:29:470:29:50

Minister. In 2016, when David

Cameron resigned, Tory members came

0:29:500:29:55

close to having a say between

Theresa May and Andrea Leadsom over

0:29:550:29:59

who would lead the country. It would

have been the first time party

0:29:590:30:03

members had chosen a PM and on the

evidence of the poll Tory members

0:30:030:30:08

would have been closer to Andrea

Leadsom. She, of course, dropped out

0:30:080:30:11

of the race before they had a

0:30:110:30:12

But the country is already divide

and politics need to involve the

0:30:150:30:25

process ofarbitration between values

and should power be in the group who

0:30:250:30:30

tend to have opinions at the extreme

ends of spectrum. When I said there

0:30:300:30:38

was 150,000 fewer Tories, some say

it half that number, but they don't

0:30:380:30:44

publish the figure.

0:30:440:30:46

Ustin Fisher is Professor

of Political Science

0:30:460:30:48

at Brunel University London.

0:30:480:30:49

Cherry Mosteshar is co-chair

of Momentum in Oxford.

0:30:490:30:51

Chloe Ahmed is a member

of the Conservative party.

0:30:510:30:57

Why do you do it?

I ask that myself

on a very cold January evening when

0:30:570:31:06

I'm standing at someone's door

trying to persuade them to vote

0:31:060:31:09

Labour and all they want is why

Jeremy Corbyn wears a certain kind

0:31:090:31:13

of shoe. It does get soul-destroying

sometimes. But I believe that if you

0:31:130:31:19

want a certain sort of world and you

have a vision of how it can achieve

0:31:190:31:24

that, you have to go out there and

try and at least talk to people and

0:31:240:31:30

tell them why you think they would

be better off.

What about you Chloe,

0:31:300:31:35

do you, hope that you will influence

the Conservative Party in some way

0:31:350:31:38

as an individual?

That and you have

to be, to change anything you have

0:31:380:31:43

to be part of it. You can't expect

your future to be a certain way if

0:31:430:31:47

you don't put anything into it. You

can't sit back and say this will

0:31:470:31:50

happen.

It is civic duty.

Yes, you

can't expect anything to happen if

0:31:500:31:58

you don't put anything in.

You are

half the age of Conservative

0:31:580:32:02

Parties, you must be the youngest

person in the room by a mile.

0:32:020:32:06

Everybody says that, but no, there

is lots of young Conservative

0:32:060:32:11

groups, we have a great young

Conservative movement and we go to

0:32:110:32:16

lots of socials and meetings and I'm

not the only person.

You're the

0:32:160:32:21

liberal end, the younger

demographic, political views as

0:32:210:32:25

well, you support Theresa May in

favour of same sex marriage.

Yes

0:32:250:32:28

definitely.

I go to meetings and I'm

the oldest one. How did that happen.

0:32:280:32:35

We have shown this young activist

Labour Party, your members are the

0:32:350:32:38

same age as the Conservative

Parties. 53 to 57.

There is a big

0:32:380:32:46

influx of new, young members and

they have more energy than activists

0:32:460:32:49

have had. I have been doing this

for... 40 years and I have never

0:32:490:32:55

seen so many people that are going

we are going out are you coming?

0:32:550:32:59

Labour do have half a million

members.

It is incredible.

Now

0:32:590:33:07

professor Fisher, is it an issue

that these people have too much pow

0:33:070:33:13

sner

-- power? If it is an issue, it

has always been an issue and at the

0:33:130:33:23

start of 20th century people asked

if it was right that lead we are

0:33:230:33:29

accountable to the members. Labour

kept the unions, because they were

0:33:290:33:40

scared of people being too radical.

Before it was a balancing act

0:33:400:33:45

between voters, the leader and the

activists, what we see in Labour is

0:33:450:33:49

the leadership and the activists, at

least the momentum being more

0:33:490:33:54

aligned than usual. As we have seen

in this data, the voters are nor

0:33:540:34:01

centrist.

I'm not a separate group.

I organise under a banner calmed

0:34:010:34:07

momentum -- called momentum, it was

the campaign to elect Jeremy Corbyn.

0:34:070:34:15

It is to preserve his legacy. You're

a Labour Party member No 1.

Did you

0:34:150:34:22

campaign for Blair?

I did, but those

were my salad days.

Is it the case

0:34:220:34:30

that parties, this is the crucial

question, parties have that have

0:34:300:34:36

more members have become more

alienated from the voters.

That has

0:34:360:34:41

tended to the care, particularly

with more left of centre. That is

0:34:410:34:48

largely because right of centre

parties have been able to command

0:34:480:34:51

things like finance from outside

sources. Left of centre parties tend

0:34:510:34:56

to be less well served financially.

Labour has had the unions in the

0:34:560:35:00

past. But you know now we see that

the Conservative Parties are more a

0:35:000:35:05

wealthy party. It is a balancing

act. You have got to give the

0:35:050:35:09

members something back. But

sometimes democratic participation

0:35:090:35:13

can be unpredictable.

What do you

think of momentum, do you think of

0:35:130:35:17

momentum as a great democratic

force, you obviously don't adegree

0:35:170:35:21

with them. - agree with them. Do you

see it as a good thing.

I to engage

0:35:210:35:26

people, yes. It is a good thing for

every political party to be able to

0:35:260:35:31

engage with the general public. But

what momentum has become, do I agree

0:35:310:35:42

with it no, it has become a platform

for people to abuse.

There is no

0:35:420:35:50

such thing as momentum as, we're a

disparate group. We are leaderless.

0:35:500:35:58

I there is no one to answer to.

What

I want to ask, would you consider it

0:35:580:36:06

democratic in 2016 if Tory member

had picked Andrea Leadsom as leader.

0:36:060:36:17

Does that feel to you democratic?

We

have

We have to look at the whole

0:36:170:36:24

system.

You believe in members.

I

believe that members and specially

0:36:240:36:32

ly now with the growing members of

Labour Party.

Would you be happy

0:36:320:36:36

with Tory members picking a Prime

Minister. Of course you're happy

0:36:360:36:39

with Labour members picking a Prime

Minister, what about Tory members.

0:36:390:36:44

That is democracy. It is like

saying, yes, I would like to choose,

0:36:440:36:50

but we weren't going out of Europe.

But I can't.

Why not, when Blair

0:36:500:36:57

resigned, as leader, the Labour

members had the opportunity to elect

0:36:570:37:02

a new leader. It was the same one

member election that we had in the

0:37:020:37:06

Conservative Party. But it is no

different if it is the Conservative

0:37:060:37:08

Party or the Labour Party.

The

members, the MPs, are accountable to

0:37:080:37:14

their voters. And so you used to be,

until recently that the MPs chose

0:37:140:37:22

the leader a the Prime Minister and

now the MPs might be foisted upon

0:37:220:37:26

them somebody they don't want as

leader.

That is always a danger. We

0:37:260:37:32

saw that with the Conservative Party

when Iain Duncan Smith was elected.

0:37:320:37:37

What you have to remember is the

parties have to give members

0:37:370:37:40

something to keep them involved.

Cherry and Chloe do all the

0:37:400:37:46

wonderful things that party members

do, campaigning and so on, but what

0:37:460:37:50

is the incentive for someone to get

involved if they don't get a say? It

0:37:500:37:54

is a real balancing act for parties.

It is extending it. You know having

0:37:540:38:02

members choose the leadership,

whatever party is more democratic.

0:38:020:38:05

It is about...

Better than the MPs.

Yes, because they're a small group

0:38:050:38:11

and they can be, deals can be

stitched up, they think about their

0:38:110:38:17

promotions.

They're accountable to

the voters in t way that the

0:38:170:38:21

activists aren't.

If you're asking

members, we are members of

0:38:210:38:26

Conservative Party, but anybody can

be a member of a political party.

0:38:260:38:31

Anyone can join.

This argument has

been raging since 1902. So we won't

0:38:310:38:38

resolve it now.

We are trying to

make politics that reflects the

0:38:380:38:42

people.

Thank you all very much. A

very quick time to look at the

0:38:420:38:50

papers, the financial times

companies want to replace hard ware.

0:38:500:38:56

The Times question President Trump's

mental health. The Guardian, Theresa

0:38:560:39:03

May says sorry to patients and The

Express give foreign aid crash to

0:39:030:39:08

NHS.

0:39:080:39:15

Well, that is it for this evening.

0:39:150:39:16

But Glasgow film festival announced

today it will open with the UK

0:39:160:39:19

premiere of Wes Anderson's new film

- an animated feature

0:39:190:39:22

called "isle of dogs".

0:39:220:39:23

Anderson is famous

for his hyper-stylised

0:39:230:39:24

and symmetrical aesthetic.

0:39:240:39:25

You may have seen it in films

like The Grand Budapest Hotel

0:39:250:39:28

and The Royal Tenenbaums.

0:39:280:39:29

Well sometimes life imitates art.

0:39:290:39:30

Wally Koval's instagram feed,

"accidentally Wes Anderson" gathers

0:39:300:39:32

some evidence for that.

0:39:320:39:36

Good night.

0:39:360:39:39

MUSIC: Alone Again Or by Love.

0:39:450:39:51

Is social media harming children? Plus companies that boost their value with blockchain buzzwords, and do party members have too much influence?


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS